 Wonderful. So again, Nikesha Elena Alexis is my name and I am originally from the island of Trinidad in the Caribbean. I grew up in New York City in Manhattan and have been in Elkhart since 2004 at this point. So some other things that might be interesting about me. I live here in Elkhart and I'm involved in different community organizing efforts, different efforts of fun as well, at least when we're not in a pandemic. So I dance and sing and have a life outside of the seminary and yeah, I guess we could start with with that. Thank you. Um, can you tell us a story about a time when you experienced God in a powerful way. Sure. Um, I would, I want to preface this by just saying that, especially since the pandemic but even a little before I feel fairly blessed to have continued to grow in my worship and prayer life, my personal worship and prayer life and so have been able to experience God, I think in a more routine way even than earlier in my kind of spiritual formation. So that is a pleasant and wonderful development and not quite surprised, but certainly something that I feel really engaged and energized by. And a specific story would be from actually earlier this year. In February, I was unfortunately in a car accident. It wasn't major injuries or anything like that, but still pretty scary to be going, you know, almost 50 miles an hour and to be hit from behind the car in front and somehow end up on the side of the road. And, you know, that in and of itself feeling a strong sense of protection had I gone here or there, the result of the accident could have been much, much, much more harmful. But I remember sitting in the emergency room with a friend of mine and just feeling this very strong sense of peace that my life as it is right now is exactly the way that it needs to be. And in a sense of just the spirits kind of affirmation for who I am and what I'm doing and and a sense that alright God has me where God needs me to be. And if you're going to experience an accident and come out from a place of gratitude but not gratitude that like oh crap I got to get my life together or oh my this is a second chance but really to have gratitude that where I am is where I need to be. And that that felt like the presence of God and the affirmation of God for me so that would be one of the most recent kind of big powerful times. Yeah, powerful story. Nikisha. Can you tell us about the projects you're working on this year in your ICUR role and give us a short description of each one. Sure. Well the biggest thing as Janine said is transitioning into this role full time. And a main reason for that is because of the external consulting work that has been built into my my work since about last July. So who don't know my work at the seminary encompasses kind of three positions or not three positions but three, three areas of focus. So we do, I work with my team to do structural change at the seminary. That's the policies the practices ways that we operate. There's an educational component in terms of working with students so every incoming student, for example, in our leadership education and an abaptist perspective course, they do the IDI. They go through a session with me on identity power and privilege. So there's a little bit of an educational component there. And there's work with the church leadership center which has to do with our ministry integrity circles for seasoned pastors transition to leadership for new pastors and there is an intercultural and anti oppression component to that as well. So, in addition to all of that, I've been feeling very, very energized by all of the work that's coming into the seminary and and coming into my lab to engage churches. There's a conference right now to engage non non religious non men and I related organizations here locally to to be doing educational work around race and intersectionality questions of white privilege and other forms of supremacy. And so why it's kind of like being the ICR coordinator on on the road or like that people can just kind of hire an ICR coordinator for a time so there there are lots of projects that are coming out of those connections in addition to the ones that are kind of tried and true and integrated into the seminary's work. And so that feels very exciting at this point in time. And to follow up on that. How did the events of the last several months, when issues of racial injustice move to the center of our nation's awareness impact AMBS efforts to undo racism. How can AMBS be a resource to the church in this critical work. Sure. Well, I mean, certainly with a mod our Barry Breonna Taylor George Floyd especially caught caught some people's attention in a way that it had before. Just honestly, I thought I'd get kind of slammed with requests and and and didn't for a while so you can actually see like my hours are pretty stationary in early spring but after that just started getting more kind of inquiries about how to have how do we work with their teams from these different organizations how to work with their teams. What do we need to know what are the resources we need etc etc. The way that I prioritize working the way that I, I, the, the, the relationships that energize me and that seemed to be to bear the most fruit are ones in which I'm walking with people long term. I don't like honestly just doing workshops that either don't have a sense of the history of what people have done before, or that don't have a sense if even if you can't work with me on an ongoing basis of what are the goals you want to have coming out of this. And how do you intend to continue the work after I finish. And so several of the relationships that I have right now in terms of different groups that I'm working with are, you know, some have lasted over a year, even before the situation with George Floyd woke up, you know, quote unquote woke up some people to what has already been the experience of black and brown folks within within the US. And so the, the ability to be walking with people through multiple stages of change, and to to get to know and in some ways be more embedded with a group or a community, I think is a strong suit of what we do. Because I'm interested in change. I want to see organizations move from point a to point Z. It's not just about providing information. And then, you know, people kind of struggling to figure out what to do with the information once they've gotten it. I think the seminary has a role to play, certainly in how we continue to operate how we continue to grow as a place that is that is truly open and welcome and inclusive. And so, you know, as our visions that vision says Christians from, you know, different racial identities and other identities. Excuse me. And from different traditions to actually be able to come and study and have a rewarding experience that prepares them to serve where they are planning to serve. So we have, I think a call to be to be prophetic in the ways that we talk about these kinds of situations and the ways that we teach. So Jana Hunter bowman's course would be one example of that the way that witness colloquium has really taken on some of these questions, and certainly other professors do the same thing so I want to say that I don't see this as all my work to do. I think we do it as a community. And certainly as as this role expands, and people identify needs within their own communities. We have a more of a resource through programmed activities like ministry integrity circles or transition to leadership but also with working with me to figure out what is their call to to address systemic oppression to address police violence to address the ways in which white supremacy continues to adversely harm traumatize and and violate particular communities in this country. So that's a lot of words but hopefully it's clear. Thank you. I'd like to just follow up a bit on that Nikisha. I really appreciate what you said about wanting to work with a group over a long period of time and I know that's been a real value for you. Can you give us just a sense of what that process looks like like, what do you do as you first start talking to leaders that before you meet with the group and then how do you. Yeah, what are the steps in that process. Just a sense of how you might work with a congregation or a conference. Maybe maybe let's stay with the religious groups at this point. Or, well, I mean the first thing is, I tried to be in conversation with folks of course upfront. What, what are the challenges that people are facing. What have they tried before what you know what have they done before, where is it that they're hoping to go. I tried to work in a really relational way. And so, even if I'm using a similar set of tools so I have, you know, I have modules on understanding race and whiteness I have modules on intersectionality I have different things that I use and I teach. I want to be able to try to customize a working together for what it is that you want to do. For example, I've worked with men and I camp, and we started by trying to establish what goals they were wanting to work on. We've moved through a process in which I've trained their staff, you know, have to workshop with their staff. I'm strategic planning around how to take what we did there what kinds of conversations do they need to have. And then I continue to do coaching with the, you know, one on one coaching with the executive director, so that we have these kinds of check in points where they are able to sort of mark. Okay, this is what I've been able to do. These are the kinds of conversations that we're having. This is why I'm feeling stuck a pandemic has ensued how do we continue how do we continue doing this work. So, you know, that would be a short snippet of about two years of working together. But we kind of mark that we walk the path together about okay if we do this and it leads to this kind of result. How do we pick up on that ripple. Where does that take us next. So some of it is very, is very planned. And some of it is the way that the work goes it unfolds as you walk it. And so trusting the spirits leading and trusting that okay once you start taking steps. Sometimes you will have to be pushing the work forward and other times you will have to be running after the work it will, it will open up for you the different things that they're there, there are to do. An example would be working with a conference. We met and initially, I met with two for the head of the conference and one of the, I think the conference moderator. We, we had a conversation about again what had been done what did they want to try. I met with their like leadership group and initially was sort of like, do we do the IDI like what what do we do and, and I asked the question what do you know about your conference. You know, got a lot of anecdotal kind of feedback in we, we, we, we have these sorts of congregations, these are the different language language groups that are represented. But you know, as I, as I continue to poke at those questions, we realize that like, wait a minute we can't be doing visioning and kind of planning for how to do intercultural work. We don't actually know in a concrete way who's in who's in the conference. So, you know, I use the analogy, you don't build a bridge with anecdotal evidence you build a bridge with data. And so we switched from, you know, kind of going in with a, let's do the IDI or let's do this or that to the first thing we actually need to do is a survey of all of the pastors to find out what their churches are experiencing who's making up their communities. And we got back tons of data, tons of data that we're still working through that some of it surprised us. And also as part of that process we built in that people from this leadership team would call each pastor so we're not just relying on electronic email but this is a way to also be intercultural by calling and and and having these conversations and building these relationships with the folks that we want to continue working with. So the, the act of trying to build more intercultural competence requires some intercultural competence up front. So, you know, the, those would be two examples that that get me very excited clearly. But the work really is about who I'm working with and trying to help people and communities and organizations do what it is they're hoping to do and in in the ways that are as just as as possible. Thank you. This is a really big question but why do you like doing the work you do at ambs. Yes. You know, as I thought about it, I think three. I did for right now I'd categorize it and sort of three three things one I get to do what I'm passionate about. You would not think that working on something as hard as as racism as a black woman would be energizing. And I think that's really for me at the seminary. And I, I, I know that there are other people other places where sometimes that is not the case. It is a fight it is a struggle and you're trying to even convince people that there is a problem to actually address. I can say with a whole heart that that is not the issue that I have at ambias. Sometimes we have to figure out time sometimes we have to figure out money sometimes we have to figure out what is sustainable, but there's never a question of whether or not oppression is real or racism is real or white supremacy is real. And that's something needs to be done. So I, I'm blessed to be doing work that I'm passionate about in a space that is by and large very supportive of course there. We will have disagreements or differences of opinions at times, but it that is largely supportive and how can we help you do this. What do you need to be able to, to, to support others in this work. And we have really as as an organization and a community grown together I was not hired as the ICR coordinator, there was no such thing as the ICR coordinator when, when this work started to unfold. And there has been a real kind of partnership and a dialogue and a movement back and forth that has made this this this role unfold and come to be. So I'd say that's, that's one of the things that I really appreciate about being there. I have an excellent team with the ICR team so I'm also not doing this work alone. The other things that really energize me is that I really not just the idea but the concrete reality that if there are 50 people, 20 people that leave the seminary having these that start the seminary with these kinds of things right we're building it on the front end, and that this shapes how they engage as students, and then they leave. Each one of those people are potentially touching 50 people in a congregation, they're touching 20 people in an organization they're touching three other people that I can't reach. So the, the, the importance and the power of having this work in an educational institution whose whole mission is to create leaders that are literally going around the world, means that I'm helping to contribute to a conversation, all over the country without having to be all over the country. So it, it that gives me a lot of, of energy, and it gives me a lot of hope. And the last thing I'll say about that too is when we're having the ability to be in a place for a long time, I never in a quadrillion years thought I would be in a card or at the seminary for it's like 15 or 16 years at this point, ever, ever. But the benefit of that is, I've been able to see us go from an anti racism team to to this I see our team, I've been able to see us do different kinds of training I've been able to to feel the culture, begin to shift I've been able to see the kinds of conversations that we have change. And sometimes the results are immediate, you know we make we make a change and we're able to implement something. Sometimes the fruit takes longer to grow, but I would, I would not want to start over somewhere else. Trying to build that kind of that level of trust and that level of rapport and that level of of dynamism and engagement that is happening there. I, I, so for as long as the seminary will have me in as long as the work makes me happy, I feel glad to state. And we are so glad you are here. So what is a dream that you have for AMBS. I, I have to do one of the things that I, one of the ways that I feel like we really need to continue to grow and I, this will not be news to anybody I say this, I say this often is in our relationship to Elkhart proper. Now it feels, it feels very bizarre as somebody who got here from New York City to be like, we need to be committed to Elkhart. And I think there's a spirit of that but it's, it's not always fully executed. I want us to see ourselves as Elkhart seminary as one of Elkhart seminary and how that would change the way that we relate to relate to different organizations to different things that are happening in the city in a more intentional way. There are lots of ways that people individually are contributing to life and Elkhart. I don't, I don't want to say that. But I want for us to become a place where folks are like, we need spiritual resources. We need AMBS library, AMBS professors. We need, we need people to comment on this sort of peace and justice thing that's happening within our city. Where, where, where is AMBS? I want, I want that to become a question that people ask. I want us to be seen as a resource in that way for the people who are around us. And that's just, that's just like a global reality. We're in, we're in a moment and an ongoing kind of moment where as a sustainability and an ecological issue, you're not going to have people flying everywhere and moving places. And while our, our online programs are beginning to serve more people broadly, we have to develop the kind of relationship and trust within Elkhart so that we begin to serve people here locally in a different, in a different kind of way. So I have said that to others. I feel like people receive that. Again, it's, it's, it's not a question of like, why would that be important, but there are just other, you know, we're also a very stretched place. We try to do a lot of things. Big things as a, as a small seminary. So that's, that's one vision. And I, I want, I think we're not always cognizant of how unique and in some ways ridiculous in a good way, all of the things that we're doing really are around ICR kinds of concerns. We are a tiny Mennonite place in the middle of Elkhart. And, you know, I know from stories of different places that are struggling to get diversity work going that are arguing about people who have folks on their team that they can't even work with. Like, when we, when the Association of Theological Schools came to see us, they were like, this is a big deal. The ICR work that you all are doing is a big deal. And it would be important for you all to figure out how to keep it going to keep it sustainable. So, you know, if I had to dream the ultimate ultimate of dreams, I want us to have a full department. I'd want us to have more coordinators I would want there to be multiple people who are able to be embedded in different structures and organizations like we, we have I think the experience and, and, and could potentially build the capacity for that. Because I like doing this stuff but I'm going to get older one day. I would get tired, and it would be nice to have a fleet, if you will, of people who could be able to do what to do what I'm doing, and to do it in their own ways and to serve more people so I would say deeper roots in Elkhart. Let's be here and be here, be here wholeheartedly. And also, let's continue to grow this, this, this ICR work. And not just again for outside but we as a community there are ways that we can continue to grow and being welcoming and inclusive etc etc and so for our benefit as well. Thank you so much. I now want to remind everyone we're, we're down to our last question that I have and then Nikisha is going to be ready to answer questions or comments that you want to make so please use the q amp a feature to send in your questions or your comments and also the next question is a question for you. So you can also type in your answers. Nikisha. What would you like to ask our alumni. Well, I, you know, one of the, of course, with the moment that we're in as you mentioned Jeanine, I want to know what people are doing for justice for racial justice in particular how are people standing up for black lives how are people doing and teaching and what are what are people doing with the time that they have, and the privilege that they have to, to, to have a community that they that they can influence in a very deep way to to see and and to see about this work as, as acts of what it means to be living into the gospel, a gospel of peace and right relationship of repair that is necessary before reconciliation can occur. But I want to have full trust and knowledge that people from ambias see this as important and are doing something about it, wherever they are. So that would be one of my big questions right like what are you doing personally institutionally congregationally to be carrying this work forward. Yeah. All right, so I invite anyone who wants to answer that question to go ahead and put that into the comments. The question has come from Paul lick D, who has been an advocate for persons with disabilities, and he's asking, how much in your intercultural competency work, do you talk about ableism and inclusion of persons with disabilities and thank you Paul for your question also for your work in this area. Thank you Paul. So I use an intersectional approach to to my undoing racism and intercultural competence work. Hopefully that is a term that resonates with you but essentially what it what it does is it's looking at the ways in which different forms of oppression. Whether to impact different communities and individuals in in varying ways. So, so certainly disability would be would be one of that, one of those and ability. The ways in which different policies and procedures impact folks with different cognitive abilities physical abilities, etc, etc. So, that is a part of the way that I conceive of what I do. The ways in which race complicates that you know which communities who are disabled are receiving more resources and others etc etc so I'll also say intercultural competence has to do with difference broadly. So how are we navigating different types of of identities and life situations that have an impact on on different folks would be would also be part of the intercultural competence concern. Can I follow up on that just briefly to ask, did the ICU our team help when we have had students who had some kind of limitation physical limitation such as a hearing impairment or a site impairment. Have you been consulted for those kinds of situations. I would say off the top of my head not specifically. And at the same time, the seminary has been very responsive around that so in some ways it. I haven't needed to. We have had students who have had visual impairments we have had students who have had hearing impairments. We have had folks who are part of our community with physical impairment or disabilities. And so, you know, everything even from the ways that the chapel has has been read done to to make those accommodations to the ways in which classrooms have have been and teaching styles teaching faculty have worked to address that. So, you know, I have not had to do a lot of work around that but it certainly isn't because a the work hasn't been done and be the seminary as a whole is not attentive to it. Thank you. Thank you, Shane sends in this comment and question. Thanks for all your work. I wish you had been there when I was a student from my 35 years doing housing and community development work in Goshen, Indiana and Miami, Florida. There's a large overlap between systemic racism and structural legal economic injustice. For example, FHA policies that prevented black families from getting a mortgage. How does your work address this reality. Thank you Arden for that question. Thank you. Well, I mean I think one of the things is even first to build awareness that these that these embedded and ingrained. And whether or not I want to be involved. This I think is sometimes the place where where white people or folks who are in other dominant groups get stuck, because it's sort of like well I'm not racist or I'm not doing. Okay, that's fine. But if you are, if we are following particular rules if we are bounded by particular ways of doing things legally within our structures our policies and practices then those things need to be challenged. So I, I've begun to talk more about the different types of social change, and the ways in which we have to try to identify what change calls for what action. And you know to give an example of that. You know, sometimes we see issues of discrimination let's say in housing or whatnot and, and, and the, the solution that we want to give is, well, I'm reading more, or I'm trying to watch more movies, and it's like okay that's good work for your individual development, but more is actually needed if you want to have a systemic or institutional impact. So, being able to assess to even identify what is going on to assess where the places that we can or can't get involved. Are there places where we need to be working at alternative structures as churches as organizations do we need to set ourselves up differently do we need to change what we do. Are there places then that we engage in protest or advocacy or other forms of social engagement to try to to affect these bigger systems of change that that are around us, and sometimes working through us whether or not we actually agree. Thank you. Great to see what other questions come in from alumni, I will ask you to say a little bit more about the intercultural development inventory, and how that is used with students and employees at AMBS what, what does this tool do. What are the gifts that we receive from it. So the IDI, which we use it for short is a way of measuring where you are on an intercultural competence continuum. Are we, are we engaging differences in ways that are trying to make people make everybody the same. Are we engaging with difference in a way that is defensive or oppositional, or just sort of superficial and uncritical. So it helps, we use it, particularly with students, we're also beginning to, we also use it with new employees and are kind of working to, to backtrack if you will for people who have already been here. We've done the idea with all of our administrators at this point. One of the things that it does is it again immediately brings awareness, if I'm aware that I'm operating out of this part of the continuum and I want to be operating somewhere else, what are the, what are the skills that I need to build to be able to do that. So every IDI, for example, comes with an intercultural development plan, and particularly with students, they, they check in with their advisors as they're going through their degree program. And with the end of students in particular, we do the IDI again before they leave to, to measure growth. Some professors use the reference or use the IDI in their courses as well. So it's, we're working at continuing to build up the points of contact and the points of engagement with it for students. So in addition to building awareness, it also helps to build skills in terms of the development plan to actually help ourselves move. And the thing that I will say about the IDI is that it needs to be within a container that will help to continue keep it alive. And the point of that is sometimes people are like, well, let's do the IDI and we do the IDI and maybe if particularly if you're in a Mennonite institutions, you've done the IDI six times. But there hasn't been a plan for either how as a group you're going to build your skills or what are the places that it will show up in terms of your work life, a supervision. And the IDI needs to be situated within a plan, an action plan for change. So, you know, we, we, we are working at that at the seminary at both the employee level and the student level and, and I feel, you know, lots of energy and communication shifting with students and also, you know, we're working out how to do that then as employees to it's a bit, it's a bit trickier but we're getting there. Thanks. Jacob phrase has asked our first to comment thank you so much for this blessed be God who brought you on board as part of the teaching community at MBS. This question you indicate your positive teamwork at MBS. Are today's students well on board with your positive experience, or is there an element of skepticism or anxiety within the student body. Thank you, Jacob. Hmm. Yeah, I mean I would say I don't, I don't feel the any anxiety around it. I think because we, we, we include it within our kind of ethos and understanding of what it means to do education at the seminary that where it begins to prepare people for this conversation moving forward. I, I have worked really diligently to, to also in terms of the identity power and privilege section. To, to, to construct the, the, the argument if you will or the information if you will in a way that I think really resonates with students. So, you know, they start with intersectionality I asked them about their cultural context there's their storytelling in terms of this is how this connects to who I am, you know, whether I'm from Kenya or Zimbabwe or Nigeria, or from, you know, Kansas or, or L card or Goshen or wherever. So I think I present the information in such a way that it, it resonates with people. I, I try to and have grown at this over time it, it, this is a this has become a growing edge for me like to really situate it in what it means to be a follower of Jesus. So, a passage that is really meaningful for me and that I share with students is out of first john for where, you know, the writer is just very clear, like, if you say that you love me, but you hate your brother. It's not that you love me who you can't see, but you hate your brother or use your sister or, you know, I'd expand that, of course the biblical text is is is gendered in its own way but if I, if I, if I say I love God who I can see and I hate a human. I hate my kin who I can see. You're a liar. It's not mincing words about that it's not like well you might need to grow in your know it's just you're a liar. So this, this is, and of course there's other texts so I don't want to be proof texting here but this, this, this is integral to what it means to, to be witness. The whole world will know you by your capacity to love. And so if we and particularly as we can see within this moment like the division in the church about whether or not racism even exists. The division in the church about whether or not their black people deserve or don't deserve to be gunned down in the street. I don't care what people are preaching on Sundays, that message is speaking loudly to folks who are not of the Christian faith. And so it is, it is a missional task, it is a peacemaking task, it is a witness task. And I think if, and when students catch that understanding that that intercultural competence and, and, and a desire for liberation for as I say it for everybody. So, you know my my liberation effort extends to humans it extends to other animals it extends to the ways that we treat the planet. And I understand that that and it, it, it, it speaks, it preaches our position on these things. We, I would like to say that we don't have a choice, particularly as justice minded people, but to do the work. I try to convey the importance of that to students in in my sharing and my in my encounters and my teaching. Thank you for sharing that very compelling vision of what it means to be a Christian peacemaker. We have time for one more question if somebody wants to. Ah, I see there are more here. Okay. Janet Guthrie. Nikisha I celebrate you and your work on behalf of the MBS and indeed all of us. Thank you. Love seeing you on screen and remembering our shared student days. Yeah, Janet. First Mennonite of Champaign Urbana Illinois has cultivated a vibrant racial justice witness locally for the last five years. We've been working to a variety of educational programs we've been involved with advocacy for criminal justice reform and relationship building with black churches. We have a racial justice working group that is quite active. The next step appears to be an internal audit that helps craft a change agenda for the congregation itself. I have a couple more questions regarding your consulting work. How are the charges calculated and how might a congregation budget to draw on ICUR services and I have a couple more questions just beyond this Nikisha so if you can save a little time for more. Sure. I mean I would say for that. The best thing to do is email me at ICUR coordinator all one word so the letters I see you are coordinator at ambs.edu. What I will say is that I I work with. I want to see work and change happen so I work with what is what people have available to them so I put together kind of a package of if you will love workshops or strategic planning or whatever and I and I have rates and fees ways that I think about that. And so then it's a matter of like what can what can people afford and also then what can I do within within those parameters that would make sense. I'm not going to do stuff that doesn't make sense. So I see our coordinator at ambs is the best way to to engage me on that. Thanks. Paul Lichti does another sharing you asked what people were doing within his congregation more of a community church setting. He's currently working on simply cultivating some awareness of racism and there's no sense of system awareness. It feels like more of a pre awareness stage. So he's asking about helpful starter material and maybe I don't have time for that full answer maybe that's something he can email you about. What do you want to take a start at that. Um, maybe let's hear the other question last the other question and I'll see if they can together. Sure. Yeah and somebody just was wanting to know what you do in terms of workshops which you have addressed so Carla mentor said please say more about the repair that must occur before reconciliation. What are first steps for this repair. And I think that'll be our last question that we have. Thank you so much Carla. Sure. Okay, so to the question about how to get people started. You know, really, history is super important. I, and I think I've begun to sort of experience this as I've done more work and now a lot of my work really is like the beginner's guide to how race developed understanding intersectionality etc etc but it is so important that people understand that we have been dropped into a narrative that precedes us. And there are ways in which things have been constructed before us that continue to have impact now. So one book that I've that I've used it's an older book but it's literally just the laws of the colonies and how they were developed. It's called in the matter of color by Higginbothamas his last name I can't remember the first name, but what's what's shocking about reading through that kind of narration of the ways that laws were created is how similar they are to the things that we're still dealing with now. And so there is a need to actually show people the system and and historical work I think can be helpful with that. I think it also brings brings brings a little bit. It's an anxiety but it sort of helps people kind of see the stream then and how they fit into it again whether or not they want to be. So staying on the individual level really you know makes it about whether or not I feel a particular way or whether or not I have certain biases and that's important. But but history is a good way to get at at some of the other things. So yeah, feel free to email me there. So the question of repair, I will, I'll use the example that I gave at our Martin Luther King, Junior Day program earlier in January. And what I sort of did was I had people kind of sit and imagine and I invite people to do this where they are to to close their eyes and and and imagine two fields to or to very lush pieces of land that you can imagine. And imagine if you will that one part of that land. People come in and mine it. Imagine that on one of these lush places of land, people dig up the trees. They tear out the flowers. They pollute the water. Maybe they even take some of the oil from from this meadow and put it into the other extraction that is happening from one location for the benefit and the growing of another. And then after 50 years. People, some folks come to both of these places and say, Oh, let's develop this. Is it reasonable to expect that you would use the same amount of resources to develop the place that has been violated or untended or mistreated, if you will, is it reasonable to say then we will spend $1000 on both of these places and and expect equal result. So the question of repair is what has to happen in these spaces where there have been where oppression has been and continues to be what has to be repaired to be able to even have have a conversation about about equity and equality and equal access. And sometimes that's the conversation that people don't want to have. And it's, it's is the comfort conversation that precedes, I feel like precedes a message of reconciliation. So I would, yeah, hopefully that is an image that that speaks to to that and helps make in a simple way the analogy clear. Thank you, Nikesha for answering all these questions and giving us an insight into your work at MBS. We really appreciate that. And thanks to you are alumni for your ongoing support of MBS alumni are our most important influencers in the church, both of prospective students and donors. And so I ask you to keep encouraging people you know to consider attending seminary, even trying just one class. For prospective students you'd like us to contact please send me their name and contact information at JB johnson at ambias.edu. I also encourage you to give generously to the seminary alumni are a critically important source of our financial support through their own gifts and their influence on other donors. Finally, I hope you will stay connected to the seminary through ongoing classes and church leadership center offerings. And if you are an ambias graduate there's a special audit rate for you and you now have the option of auditing online courses. So if you'd like to take a class this spring let me know. I also hope you can participate in the pastors and leaders event the first week of week of March, this year because of COVID-19 it will be an online event. And if you want more information about inviting Nikesha or other resources from the seminary, you can go to invite at ambias.edu. Thank you all of you for joining us this afternoon and thanks also to student Becca Baratu who provided technical support for this webinar. Next month, our conversation will be with President David Bushart. This concludes today's third Thursday conversation. Have a wonderful day.