 Okay, we're back. We're live. Welcome to Research in Manoa on Think Tech. I'm your host Jay Fiedel. I love this show. This is our Monday 1 o'clock block, believe it or not. Our show today is all about what's new at Hawaii Institute of Geophysics and Planetology. And we're talking with the director there, Margo Edwards. And she's going to share recent developments. She's also going to tell us about developing world-class facilities and building Hawaii's high-tech workforce, which is really, really, really important. And Margo has been doing that for as long as I have known her, which is several years, trying to stimulate and encourage these kids in high school and college to learn about tech, to become involved in tech, to build their lives around tech. Welcome to the show, Margo. Thanks, Jay. Thanks for having me. Great to have you. So why do you do that? Why do you care? I know I'm witness. Why do you care? I care because I think that the kids are bright. I think that I learn a lot by hanging out with them. I think that it's easy. It sounds kind of silly, but when you get the right kids and you just sort of get them on a path, it becomes very easy. And ultimately, because it's really rewarding. I mean, to see a kid sort of step up and solve a big problem or discover something new, it's really wonderful. You're essentially a teacher, but a teacher may be in a larger sense. You're a scientist who incorporates being a teacher and trying to bring people along. So you're doing the research. I know you do a lot of research and supervise your principal investigator of many things, and you have been, but you also want to bring those kids along. What a fabulous kind of worldview. I mean, you sleep well at night, don't you? Most days. Not every day. Hot days, no. But most days, yeah. Well, let's talk about, you know, from the vantage of being the director of HIGP. What is happening there, and how does that connect with Hawaii's future? So a couple of things that are going on right now, and it's kind of a... So I have these two jobs, right? I'm director of the Applied Research Lab and also director of HIGP. And it's a nice mash-up because of the fact that HIGP has all of these people that are doing really cool hands-on sorts of science. They do lots of instrument development. Of course, you know, the P stands for planetary, right? And so we've got a lot of planetary explorers, including Earth explorers. We have people that think in air, in space, underwater, right? Developing all these cool tools. And then the ARL, obviously the Applied Research Lab, we're trying to figure out ways to apply these problems, to apply these techniques to solve real-world problems, right? And so it's a very nice marriage between the two hats that I wear. And in HIGP, one of the things that we've just started working on, this is, we as the whole faculty, is trying to come up with a certificate program that we're not quite sure what we're going to call it yet, but we're calling it something like Earth and Planetary Exploration. And it would be a combination of sort of engineering and science. It would get kids really down into the details of developing an instrument or processing the data or, you know, real hands-on stuff in terms of either trying to understand this planet or a different planet. And we haven't gotten there yet, but I'm hopeful we're going to have a meeting with the Vice Chancellor for Research, who's also dual-hatted and he's the Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs, right? And to talk about getting the certificate program going. Yeah. Well, you know, the thing about it is that if you're a, you know, postdoc, you don't necessarily think in terms of, you know, making, making, you've already made your career. You've already on the track. But if you're an undergraduate, then this kind of program, the certificate you're talking about, it's very valuable because it takes the best, the most interesting things that are happening in that area of science. And it gives you a little of this and a little of that. And you begin to understand what motivates the postdocs. I think that you've got a really good point there. I mean, one of the things that I'm seeing happening in education and I'm delighted about it is, you know, the educational model that we started out with when I was a kid was sort of geared toward the industrial age, right? We were going to bring everybody up to the standard so they could do the same job in a factory. And you know, this generation has said, no, you know, I don't want to be in that. And maybe it's because, you know, we've immersed them in sort of these gaming things where it's all about them, or maybe it just was a natural condition that was going to arise. But the programs that I'm seeing that are really targeting, what is it that Jay likes? What is Jay like to do? And how can I find a way to give him enough information so that what he does is different from Susie, who's sitting over here, right? And is different from Kainoa, who's sitting over here. And they're all interested in sort of a combination of tech and science. But maybe one of them wants to worry about fishing. One of them wants to worry about space. One of them wants to worry about lava erupting. And so you find this way to make it more personalized. And that to me is the future of education. Yes. And science for that matter. You know, it seems to me, this is very interesting that you could say that's an extravagance. That it's, you know, it's personal. We need somebody instead to fit right here in this cog, right here in this hole. Don't tell me what he wants. Tell me what he needs to do to participate in science. But that isn't necessarily true. Because if you had him follow his own or her, follow him, his own passion, then you're going to get better results, aren't you? You are. You are. And, you know, I mean, we don't really know yet why there seems to be a movement of smart young people away from, for example, graduate school and into working at Silicon Valley or Route 128 in Boston. But, you know, a lot of those people are being recruited on. You get to work on what it is that lights you up. What it is that makes you exciting. And so I think as an educational system, we need to adapt. And I'm certainly not the only one that's thinking this. A lot of different people are sort of looking into this and trying to make college be a more individual experience so that you can come out of it, being really excited about what kind of expert you have. And have a fabulous career and change the world. I mean, I interview your people, HIGP researchers, scientists on a weekly basis. And they all have a certain magic. They're so dedicated to what they do. They're so excited. They're, you know, easily you can see they're committing their whole life to working on these projects they're involved in. And it's such a great career because, as you say, they are passionate about what they do. And they're going to change the world. They're going to change, you know, human exploration. I mean, I think we're in a time where we have to look back and forward. We have to look back to, you know, the development of the Homo sapien. Sorry. And I see it as a continuum and the, you know, the migration of Homo sapien around the world to every corner and the solving of all these problems which now seem easy, but in those days it was life and death. But now we move forward and we try to do the right thing. We try to apply everything we've ever learned about everything. And this, we're at a kind of tipping point going forward because now we have science that can actually change our world. Yeah. And one of the things, and again, I'm maybe being too nice to a generation, but one of the things that I see in this generation of my kid, right, and his friends, right? So I've interacted with them a lot is, you know, when I was younger, we were excited about putting a man on the moon. I mean, these big, big science problems. And now when I talk to the generation that's, that's, you know, my kids age to 20-somethings, they're excited about things like, you know, solving homelessness in the state of Hawaii. It's not, it's not as big a problem as putting people on the moon, but imagine what a tremendous contribution that would be to the planet if we could just take one city and solve the homelessness problem or, you know, one disease and make it go away. I mean, this idea that Jimmy Carter has come up with this, this plan that's getting rid of some worm-related virus in Africa is just astonishing to me that you could say, I'm going to pick one disease and I'm going to eradicate it from the planet. Drill down. Yeah. Use all your brain cells. But the other thing is these kids, and I'm thinking of one who was in here not too long ago, who was working on some aspect of the next, of the Google phone, as it were, and trying to figure out not only how that technology works and how it can work better, but the effect of it, the effect of it on the user, the effect of it on large groups of you, the effect of it on humanity. Now, and he's in his 20s. Now, that's what I call science with a view. And that's, I think, what you're talking about. These kids, it's more than just, you know, fixing the thumbnail question. It's seeing how the answers will affect humanity. And I'm so proud that there are people out there who do that in this generation. I agree. I agree. So how are we building them in Hawaii? Well, so one of the things we're starting to work with, and this brings me back to your friend, Ted Ralston, right, who also doesn't think tech show, is we've been working with a couple of guys that have been on his show, Micah and Kainoa. And they've been working with, can I say, Marinal School and Inui Nui. And they're getting kids really excited about, we call them unmanned aerial vehicles or unmanned aerial systems. Lots of people call them drones. I don't actually like that term. But he's, these two young gentlemen have said to these kids, they've come into Marinal School and rather than say, let's build a quadcopter, let's do something like that. They said, you know, what's an application that you could think of for a quadcopter. And this is told to me second hand from these guys. So if I get the story wrong, hopefully you'll have them on and they can correct me. But you know, basically one of the kids was a scout and had heard about a guy who'd hiked up to the top of Coco Head and had a heart attack. And there was no way to get a defibrillator up there, right, to be able to help him. And so I don't know the end of the story for that man. I don't know if he made it or if he didn't, but the kid said, what if we could attach a defibrillator to a commercial quadcopter? These are kids at Marinal School, right, and be able to get it into the field. So all the EMT has to do is get over there and they can save a life, right. How wonderful is that. And so we started having this conversation about how we can bring these high school and elementary school kids. I honestly don't know how old they are that we're working on this project. Bring them into UH. Let's turn UH into sort of a UAS unmanned aerial systems test range, right, where we develop all these wonderful capabilities. I mean, if these kids and thinking about it for, I don't know how long a day or half an hour can come up with, here's how to save a life, right, with a defibrillator on a quadcopter. And we put eight of them around Oahu so that we can reach everywhere on the island. An idea that actually works, that has not happened yet. An idea that these kids came up with out of integrating all that they know. And with due regard for morality, for practicality, and for value in human life, that's really fabulous. It is. And so, you know, the idea, and this is the reason we're going to have another meeting with the VCAA and the VCR, is let's bring these kids in, let's bring their teachers in. And those two guys are just examples. There's Moonshot Academy, there's all sorts of great stuff going on in K through 12 on this island. Let's bring those kids in and figure out how the University of Hawaii can be a better receptor for those kids who already know how to build a UAS, right? They know how to do the tech. They just want to come in and think about the science that goes with the tech. Maybe I could make the tech a little bit better. Maybe I could make the defibrillator a little bit smaller and more effective, you know, all sorts of great things. And apply it to the human condition. Unbelievable. Solve problems. That's Margo Edwards. She's the director of HIGP and she'd been doing this for a long time. This kind of thinking, you know, taking us to another level, taking our kids to another level, taking our state to another level. When we come back from this break, I want to talk about exactly how she sees this process evolving into a workforce of people just like that. We'll be right back. Hi everyone. Ted Alson here, host of our think tech show where the drone leaves. And a lot of you, of course, have been sitting with clocks at four o'clock on Friday so that you can make sure you see our show. It's not changed. It's not going to be at noon on Thursdays. Noon on Thursdays, no standard time for where the drone leaves. And where the drone leaves is to systems like this. Can the drone leaves that we're using here in Hawaii these days, and we need you to pay attention to this to be part of it? So see you at noon on Thursdays. Aloha. This is your host Beatrice Cantelmo. Come and join us every Friday at four o'clock on Perspectives of Global Justice. Aloha. I'm Dave Stevens, the host of the Cyber Underground on Think Tech Hawaii. This is my co-host Andrew Lanning, the security guy. Every week at 5 p.m. we'll be discussing cyber security, the things to look out for, and the things to do to keep yourself safe. Check us out on Think Tech Hawaii five o'clock Fridays. Thank you. Okay. We're here with Margo Edwards here on Research in Manila, talking about some really, really interesting, important things. And in the break, we touch this point, and that is, do we want to train them to be the beautiful scientific people that they can be, that some of them are for sure, and lose them? Or is there a way to keep connected with them right here? Right. And so this has been the hardest part of the nut for me to crack. You know, I see that there is a, I'm just going to call it a frugality, you know, that we're not offering competitive salaries in Hawaii, for a lot of reasons. I'm not, this isn't a judgment call, but we're not getting the same salaries for these kids that they could potentially get on the mainland. And so last week, I just happened to be touring some offices in the Pentagon, and I was talking to a guy who's doing cyber security pretty much for the whole nation. And I said, how do you compete with Silicon Valley? Right? Or I didn't say it, somebody else asked a question, but he said, you have to make it about mission, right? And not about money. There's always going to be those people that care about money. But if you have a kid that grew up, you know, lovin', paddling on the Alawai Canal, right? And that's their favorite thing on the planet. And you can find a mission for them that helps them become the conservator of the Alawai Canal. That's how I think that we start to do it. And that to me is the reason why we drill down towards K rather than up to 12, is because if you catch kids and get them really interested, and not only interested, but recognized for what they're doing to help their state, why wouldn't you want to keep doing that? Why wouldn't you want to feel like you're a savior of your state for your whole life? Yeah, and what a good deed that is. And I absolutely agree with you. In fact, let me add this thought, scientists and researchers who sat at this table with me over the last few years, I really don't see a whole lot of them who care about the money. They are much more dedicated to the science. And that's where they get the gratification from. That's where they feel they're making a contribution, not just to the science, but to humanity in general, to advancing the human condition. It's a beautiful thing to watch. And, you know, guest after guest, I find that, I see that, I feel that. And if we can make these kids, and we will, we can, with your help, when you're at the center of it, Marco, then we will have a whole generation of scientists like that who are committed to the science. And what we have to do, I think, and we've talked about this before, is create this critical mass, right? So it can't just be the one kid who protects the alloy and the other kid who's working on over and non-acooly, right? I mean, it has to be a community. We have to come together as a community, I think, to make this be something really important. And we can't abuse that money part of the thing. I mean, I get being frugal, you know, I get that. But, you know, if it's, you'll get $10 to do it here, or a million dollars to do it on the mainland, nobody's going to make that choice, right? You know, so we have to make it livable, right? And rewarding at a level that's beyond monetary. Well, let's unpack that a little bit. So first of all, it has to be rewarding. And that means that there has to be a critical mass of science here in Hawaii, tangible. You can reach out and touch it. You can express your scientific curiosity in it. You can have peer group. You can have peer group, people you can talk to who will understand what you're talking about, who will motivate, like you, who will motivate and encourage you, give you a place, give you a place in the scientific firmament. Okay, we have got to do that. How do you do that, Margo? Well, I don't know that I know the answer yet, but you know, what I've seen is that we can do the one-offs. I've seen that we're very successful. Christopher Lindsey, who's somebody that has been on that show. He's sat in that chair a number of times. And you know, I mean, here's a tremendous example of a young man that I hope is going to come back to Hawaii, right? That's, you know, got dedicated, got excited. He's very interested in studying what's happening environmentally in coral reefs with these cameras that he and I and Mark Ronstadt worked on together, right? You know, so the one-offs, I think, it gets back to that personalizing thing. If I could find the slight variation on what Chris has done that gets the next student motivated and the slight variation off of that, right? I mean, because we don't want to be these industrial workforce guys anymore, these autonomous, autonomous, autonomous, autonomous. Autonomous ones, right? Thanks, that all do the same thing. But if it can, if we can tie it down to what we're passionate about, that's close enough to what you're passionate about, right? Yeah. Then we start to build that critical mass. Well, prior, I think, and you alluded to this, is the notion of telling this kid, Christopher Lindsey, for example, that part of his duty is not only the science, but it's to pass it on. It's to, you know, just as you encourage him, he encourages others, and so you have a generational contribution. It reminds me of John Dean, who was the CEO of CPB, who was a venture capitalist from Silicon Valley, and who he creates structures where, yes, we'll do you benefit, we'll help you, but you have to promise that you will help someone else, sort of trickle down science. And so I think part of establishing this society that we want to see here, the great scientific society of Hawaii, is to get that commitment from these kids, and maybe not so much kids, who are involved in science, to say that not only will we help you, but you will help them. Right. And the other thing is that I think we need to get this commitment from the community too, right? You know, so we have to have the community buy into the fact that what you're doing with your underwater camera, or what you're doing with your unmanned aerial vehicle to get the defibrillator, you know, where it needs to go, those things are important. Let's give those kids a medal. Let's give them a title. Let's give them something that they recognize that everybody around appreciates that they've saved a life. I mean, my God, you know. So it's community accolades. It's community respect. It's community appreciation. And I don't think we do that enough. It happens in Manoa. It happens inside the four corners of the university, but the state has got to get behind this. I think that's true. I really think that's true. Yeah. So let's go to the second part of the unpack. Okay. Let's talk about the money. Yeah. Okay. So, you know, if I'm an administrator, management in a big university, there's no problem. I mean, I'll be paid. But if I'm a researcher, is it always an issue? And the researcher, including some very smart, very creative, very innovative people who are, you know, at the top of their game, they may not really be compensated adequately in the world market, if you will. And with this new Trump administration, it's not clear that there's going to be more money, might be less money to help them through. And they always have to chase the money. And it's like, you know, okay, while you're doing your science, would you mind chasing the money also? It's like, you know, schizophrenic. How do you fix that? Well, I don't know the answer to that. I had a really interesting conversation with a friend of mine, Dave Titley, who was a former head of NOAA, former oceanographer of the Navy. And after the election, you know, because I've spent a lot of time doing climate, I said, you know, what am I going to do now? Because I'm not writing those same proposals anymore. And he said, yes, you are. And he said the difference is that, you know, it's about security, right? And it's about the fact that sea level rise is going to affect our infrastructure and it's going to affect, you know, our water tables. And it's going to affect a whole bunch of things. And it's the security of your island is now going to be compromised, whether you use that word climate change or not. You know, and in some ways, you could be cynical and say that's a subterfuge. You know, you're hoping that people aren't paying enough attention to the fact that you've changed the words and you're still, you're still doing the same thing. But ultimately, I think there are enough people in the country that recognize that, you know, that four square that we always do where you, there is no problem and you do nothing. There is no problem and you do something. You know, the worst case is there is a problem and you do nothing, right? You know, so there's a whole lot of people that believe that we should continue to do something on climate. And you know, the fact that we're going to focus more on, it's about security. It's about water table. It's about infrastructure near the shoreline. Those things matter, you know. So his advice to me was pay attention to the wrapping that you put your gift in, right? You have a box and you're going to wrap it. Pay attention to the wrapping and how you wrap it. And then keep on the mission that's deep to your heart. Sorry, I just did. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, to me, I think Hawaii is a tipping point. And although, you know, there's a lot of things not to be too optimistic about, there are some things to be optimistic about. And that is we will find ourselves. I believe that Hawaii now will find itself. I mean, and we'll find how valuable the university is. And we'll find how valuable science is. It will find how science can actually protect us, if not save us, as an independent island chain. I mean that in terms of science, not government necessarily, but, but, you know, I think this is a time when we can realize for the first time in a long time, after a lot of squabbling, that we can actually save ourselves. We have the ability to do that. And that's part of creating this society of people who value science and who value kids that go into science and all that. And climate change will remind us whether we want to be reminded or not, that we've got to do that. Can't get away from it. Yeah, so, I mean, I, you know, I see your people from HIV come down here and I realize that they are tremendously valuable assets for the state. And that we are all going to be faced with some very difficult challenges. I, you know, I'm, I'm the Pollyanna. I, I believe that not only can Hawaii find itself, I believe that we could be a world leader in some of the things that we're doing. And that includes, that includes unmanned aerial vehicles because of our unique terrain. The fact that we're surrounded by water, we can test them better. That includes what Luke Flynn is doing with spaceflight that I think is outstanding. Take a guy like Jason Lee and the stuff that he's doing with, with virtual reality and augmented reality. He's the best in the planet, you know? I mean, and he's, he's a local guy who came back to Hawaii because he loves Hawaii. And I could go on and on and on with examples of people like that at the University of Hawaii. And that doesn't even get me started on these brilliant kids that we got. One of the things we have, which I become more and more convinced of, is we have a special social engagement. We have, we have kids. We have a community, intellectual community, scientific community that knows how to talk to people, that knows how to collaborate. And that science these days, you must do that. You must reach out. And I wonder how you feel about that. I mean, my, my observation is that we're really good at that. And it is, it is a talent that will serve us well. I spend a lot of time on the mainland, you know, because I have to for, for my jobs. And I, the stove piping that I see in every other location that I go to, I feel lucky, you know, lucky live Hawaii. I mean, this whole idea that we all got to paddle the canoe together or we're just going to spin, you know? That's a big part of our culture. And you know, I don't see anywhere else that there's the level of communication. And I'm talking, you know, Paycom and Heco and, you know, Coast Guard and, you know, the global water initiatives and organizations that, that make our country what it is. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we're, we do it better here than anywhere else that I've ever been. Okay. So we've, we've, we've talked about the need. We talked about very valuable resources. We talked about, you know, the, what do you call it? The human capital aspect that we have. We see, we can touch. We talked about the possibilities. So I give you now one minute to close, Marta Edwards. Can you, can you tell them what the first step is? What, what do they do? And they means everybody. What do they do? Well, the first step I think is that the kids go out and find themselves a mentor, right? And there's a whole lot of them at the University of Hawaii that just want to be mentors for, for bright kids, right? And if, if they don't know who to call, they should call me and I'll put them in touch with somebody, right? So that's what we do with the kids, with the researchers. I don't think you're going to have any argument with the researchers trying to reach out to the kids and saying, hey, I want to work with you. And if you do, let me know and I'll go pound on them, right? It's not likely. They're, they're so friendly and open and warm. I've met so many of them here. They are. And then the last thing is the community and, you know, the state. And that's, that's the net that I'm still trying to crack. And that's why it shows like yours and shows like Ted's are so important, you know, so that we can get those guys to acknowledge these kids, not only acknowledge them, but encourage them, right? And give them, give them the carrots. Let's keep them in Hawaii. Let's make this important. It's not okay that we're sending our kids off to the mainland all the time. If they want to go there for college, okay, you know, get away from mom and dad for a little while. But come home, solve the problems at home. Let's make that a priority and something that we actually invest money in doing, right? So that we build that community. And if you want to see this in process, it's like a week away, I want to say April 11th, is the science fair at the convention center. You can see those smiley faces, those glistening faces filled with love of science and love of, you know, being part of the universe, being part of the development of our, of our society. And those kids are so thrilling. They're so exciting. I love to go down and I'll be down there. We'd be down there. Actually, I'm touring my boss from NAFSEA around that day, but I'll try and make it down to, okay? You're done.