 The conflict in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, the DRC, one of Africa's most important countries continues to be in the news. There have been reports of mass graves discovered in the North Kewu province of the DRC, which saw a lot of fighting between the government forces and the M23 rebel group. Now, multiple reports, including the UN's reports, have indicated that the M23 rebel group is supported by the DRC's neighbor Rwanda. However, Rwanda has not faced any consequences for it, although it is a long history of supporting such rebel groups and causing a huge amount of death and damage in the DRC. Meanwhile, the East African community, a regional body, has been trying to intervene in the conflict, trying to bring about peace. But there are many questions about the way the EAC is functioning, whether its approaches are actually working. To discuss all this, we have with us our colleague, Kambali Musawili, for the Center for Research on the Congo, who has been giving us consistently very important analysis of the situation in the DRC. Kambali, thank you so much for joining us. A lot of developments happening in the DRC. We have seen recent reports by media organizations on mass graves in the North Kewu province, of course, on one hand. We have seen that the East African community has deployed, has sent a peace delegation that are also soldiers. But there's also a lot of discontent with the presence of these very soldiers as well. So maybe first, could you take us through a kind of quick situation on the ground regarding the M23 group? Is the fighting still going on? Have they withdrawn to a particular degree? What's happening on the ground, maybe? For any intended purposes, every time we have to speak about the M23, we have to say that they are a proxy rubber militia funded, trained, equipped by the run of military. Numerous UN report has documented so already. For now, they have withdrawn from some areas that they control based on the negotiation that's been ongoing with different parties, be it with the East African forces or the Congolese government. The African intelligence just recently published an article documenting how the Congolese government is secretly negotiating with the M23. So we know there are many efforts to bring them to stop the fighting. But we have to look at this in this context, right? Congo is a country of over 100 million people. The country has known a conflict for the past two decades. This conflict is a proxy war by its neighbors, Ronald and Uganda. And the Congolese people have been held hostage. They've been held hostage by processes for bringing about peace that does not consider the interests of the Congolese people. There have been so many peace accords signed. And these rebels, specifically the M23 and the earlier rendition, the CNDPRCD, they've always gone back to the bushes and saying that the Congolese government is now respecting the agreement that they've signed to put down the guns. And when you look at the agreement, one will ask, why is it that every time someone pick up a gun, go to the table, the solution is the killers have to be part of the government? One should ask, why in these negotiations, Congo is losing its sovereignty in providing territory, in providing political positions, not only that, giving amnesty to people who have committed atrocious crimes such as rape, mass killing and putting people in graves. See, if you look at just the discovery of the mass graves, which was already known since November of 2022, that in Kishish and Bamboo and other areas that the M23 massacred civilians, put them in mass graves, Congolese citizens have already shared with the world what happened. The UNI is investigating, these mass graves are being found, when they will be negotiating again with the M23, after massacring civilians, what are they going to do? Give them again amnesty. This is why all these processes are not holding, right, because it's not taking into account the will, the interest of the Congolese people, it's taking into account the belligerence of the world, their interest, first rather than the interest of the people. Absolutely. In this context also looking at Krawantin president Paul Kagame recently traveling to Benin, making some comments as well. So we know that, I mean, it's been like you said, it's pretty much common knowledge across the world that Ravanda is supporting M23, they have a history of doing it, there are current records which show it, but nonetheless Kagame has continued to actually, you know, has continued to develop as a vital partner of the West in many of their endeavors including, you know, maybe handling the refugee crisis, so to speak, which means more atrocities on refugees. So what have been Kagame's positions as of late? It's really important to understand why we have a conflict in the Congo. You know, why are there millions of people dying? Millions of Congolese are dying because there is a push to get access to Congo's land and Congo's mineral resources. And in that process narratives are created. London president Paul Kagame has been on a tour in West Africa and in his stop in Benin he said something that should worry many people around the world, that should worry many Africans because Rwanda is a member of the African Union. The president of Rwanda Paul Kagame while in his visit in Benin was asked by a journalist about the DRC because it is not clearly known that Rwanda is supporting the rebel forces in the DRC and Africans are getting to know that too as well. So the question was asked of him. In his response he says something very bizarre. He put into question the Berlin conference. It sounds like a normal thing to do while the Berlin conference is something that was done by the Europeans. We should question those things. But he added something much more cynical. He stated that during the Berlin conference the land that is the eastern part of Congo belonged to Rwanda. So when he says that he is putting into question the current borders of the African continent, a question that has already been addressed at the African Union and that question of the borders, the borders of African countries at 1960, every African country that is a member of the African Union which has sent on to the African Union charter says that the borders of African countries that was determined, that was existent in 1960 is to be respected. It means that countries are sovereign countries. So I could go on and explain first how there is a fallacy in what he said, I could say for example during World War I was the Congolese army and the Belgian rule, not the first public that actually went to Rwanda and liberated Rwanda from German colonialism. Congolese actually went into that territory to free the Rwandans. So it's so interesting that today the Polk Agam is saying something different. Now that he has said that, it is quite one said but also eye-opening for people to actually understand what the conflict in the Congo is. There's always been a fear or sometimes presented as a conspiracy theory that Rwanda and Uganda are in the operation to balkanize the Congo to actually make a new country, take Congo's territory and create a new land that they would call it whatever they would like to call it. So when you hear Rwandan president question Congo's borders, question North Kivu, the existence of North Kivu, a province in the Congo, the existence of South Kivu and not a province in the Congo and Maniama is saying that these are territories that belong to Rwanda before 1885, before the Berlin conference. Now we know why over 6 million Congolese people have died. And if we are fighting for a free liberated Congo, for a free liberated Africa, we are speaking about Pan-Africanism, balkanization is not the answer. I would have been much more happier if Rwandan president Polk Agam said for example that he would love for Rwanda to become an additional province of the Congo and that all the African countries are coming together in regional blacks to create a federation of states where in the final stage the African continent as a black will be a union, a Pan-African union fighting for the interest of the African people. That is not what he is saying. He is actually advocating for carving up African states smaller and smaller, which means weakening these countries and then of course opening up access to the lands for the interests of the Rwandan elite and also are the agents in the West specifically, those who are in London, in the United Kingdom and those who are in Paris, in France and those who are in Washington DC, in the United States. But has there been any pressure from the West from his traditional allies, we are talking about Kagame here regarding what is happening in the DRC because we do know that some years ago there was some kind of pressure put on him which led to some conclusion of the war in 2012, for instance. There have been pressure on Pankagame, but that pressure has to be contextualized. The pressure has come from different sides. Then at the same time, it's a double-edged sword. On one hand, they are putting pressure, but on the other, they're not taking action. So in the case of the United States, Secretary Blinken has actually put pressure on the Rwandan government with one to three political prisoners in Rwanda. And the second one is to stop supporting rebel groups in the Congo. But the United States continues to support the Rwandan military. They continue to provide military aids to them. And then the UN reporters documenting that the M23 have sophisticated weapons such as NADVision, Gagel and missiles that have greater range. That even Antonio Guterres, the U.S. Secretary-General, in an interview that he gave to France, Venkat stated that the United Nations forces they do not have the capacity to fight the M23 because they have sophisticated weapons. So for the U.S., it's all words to me. The same thing for the United Kingdom. Yes, they have made statements saying that Rwanda should stop supporting rebel groups in the Congo, the same thing with France. They have also made statements that Rwanda should stop supporting the M23 rebel group. But what did the European Union do? In the beginning of the year, they provided Rwanda with 20 million euros worth of military support for Rwanda's operation in Mozambique. And while they are in Mozambique, they are serving French interests. They are there really to protect the interests of the French oil company Total and not actually to help the people of Mozambique. So we are seeing the denunciation. We are seeing the strong condemnation. We are not seeing actions. And we know what works. We know that in 2012, when international pressure was put on Rwanda, whether we veiled aid to Rwanda, we veiled military aid to Rwanda, the M23 disappeared. The M23 is back with mighty support and the action that was done in 2012 is not happening. So for this being made by this statement, but it does not necessarily mean that the action is following these words that Western nations are professing at the moment. And finally, also taking a look at the East African community. We know that EAC soldiers are on the ground there. There was a peace delegation. But how is the Congolese population and the political establishment kind of responding to the EAC initiative? Does it seem like it's working or does it seem like just another attempted, you know, the words, like you said? Yes, Congo joined the East African community and is the biggest member of the East African community. It has also the biggest population with a hundred million people. So the joining of the DRC in the East African community brought about more hope for people in the East African community than with the Congolese people. One, most Congolese are not informed of this process. The ordinary Congolese was not consulted in the decision of becoming a member of that. Second, the decisions to join did not necessarily go through the parliament in an open discussion. So the parliament, of course, signed some members of parliament that did not engage in discussing what he actually meant. And in Congo joining the East African community, we lost a form of sovereignty. There was hope that the solutions coming out of the East African community would take into account Congo's history, the belligerent, Rwandan and Uganda. In the solutions being proposed by the East African community, they're not understanding that Rwandan and Uganda, members of the ESC are actually the belligerent force causing the chaos. So solutions for peace in the DRC when they are saying they are going to send the troops to stop the M23 rebel group. You have Ugandan soldiers as part of the military force does not make any sense because Congo actually have taken Uganda to the International Court of Justice and we won a 300 million judgment for the actions of war crimes, crimes against humanity and pillaging of Congo's resources while they were occupying the Congo in the 2000s. So they are already a belligerent force and they continue to support the rebel force. Second one is Rwanda is part of the discussion around the military operations. On one hand, the United Nations is saying that Rwanda is supporting militarily the M23. On the other hand, the East African community coming up with a strategy to stop the M23 has the country supporting the M23. It will never work. Right. So we do know that it's not going to work. Everything that they are doing, it will not work until the fundamental question of justice is addressed. What we bring about peace in the U.S. is justice. It's not a new military force coming from the East African community. We had the best force coming into the Congo in 2012. Right. It was the Sadek forces that they called the Force Intervention Brigade FIB. It was composed of South Africans, Namibians, Zimbabweans. These forces came and stopped the M23 in 2012. They put military pressure on the political problem. So as they put the military pressure on the political problem, they achieved some goals. But how do we explain? A decade later, we are talking about the M23. So we know that the military action is not going to stop the situation. But we believe because there is a culture of impunity. Those who committed the crime yesterday continue to commit crime today. And as they are committing crime today and no one is holding them accountable, it gives them a green light, a purveyor, as we say in French, to continue to commit this crime. So if we don't address the question of justice, we will continue to have a war in the Congo. And the Congolese people, we support the process of creating an international tribunal for the RC to hold perpetrators of the violence accountable, be it Congolese, be it our neighbors run in Uganda, and be it the international actors or corporations who have been involved in the conflict in the Congo. As long as we don't have justice, we will continue to have a conflict in the Congo. This is, of course, why the ESC solution is not working in the RC. Right, Kambali, thank you so much for that analysis. Like you pointed out, many media reports showing this conflict as just merely fighting between a certain rebel group and the government, often missing out some of the underlying issues you talked about, the loot of mineral resources, the question of justice, without which peace really, like you said, cannot be considered. Thank you so much. We'll get back to you with the situation on the DRC soon.