 All right, we are live. Okay, cool. So let's get started. Okay, well, welcome to the why can't I get a UX job? Ask me anything with me, Chris and Joseph. Hello, how are you doing, Joseph? Oh, good. Thanks for everyone for joining in. Thanks, Chris, for hosting this. This is our first time doing a LinkedIn live. So apologies if there is technical glitch and all that, but let's do our best. Yeah, we get answers. Yes, let's do our best, exactly. Okay, well, thank you everyone for joining whenever you are and wherever you are. So let's just quickly start with introductions. Let me go first. I am Chris, a product designer. I quit my head of design job in 2020 and started a UX education company. You might know it as UX Playbook. So we basically help designers of all levels, whether it's building your portfolio, learning fundamental UX frameworks for any project, how to supercharge your career growth, managing your first design team. Really, the idea is to take you from zero to unicorn and somewhere beyond. And also, of course, we have Joseph. All right, thanks, Chris. So hi, everyone. I'm Joseph. I'm the head of product design at a company called ContekOut. Basically, ContekOut is a B2B data software that mostly our customers are recruiters and salespeople. So we provide information and data to them as well. So I'm leading the product design team there. On the side, I also lecture at a local university here in Singapore. Yesterday, I had my, I think, eighth class for the semester, which is basically about teaching design to non-designers. So that's really fun. And on the other side, I do LinkedIn. So if you see my content on LinkedIn, I share mostly about UX career tips and strategies. That is a bit different from what you normally hear online because mostly it's teaching about UX design. So I personally feel like career skills is something that is important for us to build up. And that is something that has proven for me to kind of accelerate my career growth as well. I'm looking forward to share my insights with you guys as well. Awesome. Well, that's quite an introduction, Joseph. Good to have you here. OK, so let me introduce the topic. And first, we always want to start with the problem, right? So according to Nilsa Norman Group, the number of UX designers has increased from 1,000 to a million between the 1980s to 2017. That's quite a jump. They predict that the profession will grow a further from 1 million to 100 million UX professionals by 2050. Holy cow, right? However, there is a 71% less job openings for UX designers from last year alone to this year. So what does that mean? Well, there's more and more designers, however, less overall jobs. So more designers will be fighting for the same roles. And if you didn't think the job market was competitive now, it definitely will be in the future. OK, so this brings us to our question and our overall theme, right? Why can't I get a UX job? And by the end of this live session, you should know the reasons on why you're not getting the thing that you want and to increase the odds of getting hired in UX. And so let's dive into the top three things that we kind of outlined in the description. And I'll just go to Joseph on the first one and let me ask you. So if you've applied to 100 roles, but you have no interviews, why is that? Why? Got you. And it's like Chris, and that's a great question, right? It's like Chris shared. There's so many jobs, so many job seekers out there in the market. And to kind of further add on to that, there are a few, I think about 200 plus thousand people who got laid off in the last couple of years. So that just adds up to the competition, right? For jobs out there. And there's a limited capacity as well. And with companies, they are also cutting on their hiring budgets. And so it's very competitive. So one role, previously two, three years ago, we would see the average applicant for a role would be about 100, some 200. If you go for the fan companies or the manga companies, they are in the thousands or at least in the high hundreds. Right now is way, way, way more competitive. So what it means is that the way that we are thinking about our job search skills and applying online have to change drastically, right? So there are still some proven tips to kind of think about. So one, when people are applying online, one of the most common thing that I see, if you're using LinkedIn, job portals and all et cetera, they're just applying a few days late or the job has really live for a few weeks or a couple of months, and you're applying very late. So what it means is that once your online application goes to the recruiter, goes to the company, is in the midst like a needle in the head stack of all the applications that you receive. So the chances of it getting viewed is low, right? And you want to come beat through the noise. So one way to kind of beat through the noise if you're going to do with the job search, applying online is to apply first or fast as much as fast as possible, right? So on LinkedIn, if you go and search on jobs, one of the filters that really use, but if you like, I highly recommend for you to use it, is to go and see the date posted of the job, right? And try to go for the within the last 24 hours or maximum within the last week, right? Anything later than that, your chances are a bit slim, still can apply, but we do expect to get a bit of ghosting, right? Especially if you see the counter there, if it's jobs that people who have applied for it is more than a hundred, chances are a bit lower. So you need to kind of think of other ways to reach out to the hiring manager in terms of the team. One thing to note as well, the number that you see there is only about the clicks. People, a number of people who click on the easier apply or apply with LinkedIn, not necessarily the actual number of people who apply, okay? So if you do that, if you apply the job within the first 24 hours or at least within the first few days of the job going live, your chances will increase, right? Next way you can do it is, typically you will see the hiring manager or the recruiter listed and posting who posted the job there. What you want to do is after you have applied online, reach out to them on the LinkedIn, send a connection request or send an email or if you can find an email or the email is available, send them an email and let them know, hey, I'm so-and-so, I just applied for this role, really excited about the role. I think it's a good fit for me, my skills, looking forward to our first chat, right? And then you send it across. So at least you're sending a notification to either the hiring manager or the recruiter, giving the hits up in addition to the notification and the resume or the application being sent through to the ATS, right? So some common myths as well, whether ATS or the applicant tracking system will be cutting away your resume, will be tilting away your resume, not really, all right? From the recruits I work with in my day-to-day job as far as my own recruiter and from my own recruiting team, the ATS that we use is Lava. Some of these ATS don't really have those style AI features to auto phase out things. So what some you hear from some career or career coach and all that may not be so true. You speak to the recruiters, you hear a different story. What actually does happen is there are some that does that to phase out the keywords and kind of match the role there is. There are a couple of few of providers out there, but what really they do is using knockout questions. So in some of the job applications, there will be knockout questions or questions that they will ask about whether you have this experience, you have this so and so. They will use that as a filter to kind of filter out candidates, especially if there is hundreds, thousands of people applying and it's physically impossible to go through every single one, tasks they have to use this way of filtering to get to those people who are more qualified. So for me personally, when I'm reviewing job applicants, I'll go through every single profile. I only spend a maximum minute. Some of them is under 10 seconds to just look through the resume and your profile as well as the portfolio. If I see it's not a good fit, I would just have to move on. So these are reasons why people are not getting through a quite a number, but if you are in the mindset of how you wanna apply drops back two, three years ago before COVID and everything and just click apply and you got it. It's very slim. Your design skills is only one piece of the puzzle. It needs to be good. It needs to be great, no doubt. That is basic, that is expected, that's a given. You need to think real, focus on building on your career skills and how you want to reach out, connect people, reach out to the hiring manager, get that attention so that you can get a higher chance of getting the first interview. All right, that helps. Chris, how about you? Sure, yeah, that's really, really helpful. So for me, let's just repeat that question again for myself just so I get some context. So you've applied to a hundred jobs but no interviews, right? So for me, the symptoms of what you might be doing wrong is you have a single CV slash resume for every single job you apply to, right? You do it as quick as possible and you actually just want to stack up your numbers. And I don't think that's gonna work, right? You have no cover letter or you send something super generic that just sounds like you've copy and pasted and collected some resources from Google and it doesn't really sound like you. And then the other symptom is your portfolio is a bit bleh. Like it's just the cookie cutter kind of five steps of design thinking, et cetera, et cetera, right? So those are the symptoms of maybe why you're not standing out from your side and how you can improve it. So let's talk about that, right? Like what you might want to try. Of course everybody's job search journey is different. I can't tell you what will definitely work but I could tell you potentially the areas in which you can explore and that I've tried myself. So the first one is I think you should change or the industry should change their mindset and their approach to job search. I don't think it was like yesterday years when you could just kind of mass apply because you've got your pick of the bunch. I think you need to approach it in a more systematic way with starting with a UX hat. What do you actually care about? What does the company offer and kind of learn as much as you can about the company before you actually commit, right? So really help like now you've understood what you want and where you are and things you like, your interests then you kind of cross map that with what the company does and really just kind of tailor your application based on those sort of data points from both sides. I think we also have to remember that when you're interviewing it's both side courting each other, let's just say. Then the third thing is the spirit of iteration, okay? You have to treat it like a product. You are a designer, this is what you do. So how can you expect to improve or land that job if you're not iterating like your product? If you're not testing what works, what doesn't? If you're applying to a hundred roles in the same fashion, clearly something is broken. So treat it like a product. Then the fourth one is very, very simple is launch and learn, right? The only way to figure out if your product works is if it's out there on the market, right? So you also have to treat job searching like a skill so it can be improved over time. So what do you need to do better? Is it your analysis? Is your time to market? As Joe said, the quicker you apply the better because you're on top of the stack, right? So what other skills can you kind of collect over time while you treat your job searching as a skill? Okay, so that's just my thoughts and anything to add on there, Joe? Yeah, so those are very good points, right? So to kind of just to answer the question that Selene kind of added on in terms of the numbers that I mentioned earlier. So I was just writing the reply, all right? So the numbers that you see on LinkedIn job search in terms of number of applicants is just the number of people who actually click on the button of the easy apply or the apply with LinkedIn, right? Not most people or not a lot of people would complete the application, right? Or not many people would just click on it and then finish the application or they would just click it for fun, right? So it depends and it's not the most accurate. You still can apply, no doubt, there's no harm of it. But what I would say that the chances of getting a role still through a job application, the traditional job application online is very slim, right? So you wanna kind of think of more creative ways of how can you get the attention of the hiring managers and recruiters through other ways, right? So I like to kind of use the analogy of you are going to a party, right? Traditional job application online and through the job portals and all that is like trying to get into the front door of the party where you have to wait in a queue, right? And there's a bouncer there, which could be a recruiter asking you questions, checking your ID and all this, right? Before you can get entered into the party. So that's the way, but there's gonna be a long line, right? There is the back door which you can get in through referrals, right? And something that in terms of stats about 70 plus percent of people get jobs through referrals, right? So that is not one that is quite frequently talked about but that's another way to kind of get jobs which is networking with people, networking with the hiring managers, networking with recruiters on LinkedIn, commenting on posts, networking with other designers, asking them if there has any job opportunities, if not most likely the best people to network with is recruiters, hiring managers, and even mentors on AP Daylist, right? So you can use on platforms like AP Daylist, get yourself out there, meet with mentors, especially if they are from your dream companies to ask them questions about their career, ask them career advice so that they can put a face to a name, right? And then from there, if you share your story, share your struggle, share your portfolio, they can also get a chance to see what your talents is, what your design skills level are and also get to know you as a person. So that are creative ways, different ways to kind of put yourself out there. The one that I teach for my clients as well as the community as well, I've reported on the carousel is coming in from the third door, right? And the third door is the one that either the employees come in or it's a lesson-known door that people will go in. And this is one that is using a method called an MVP, right? And basically I have this dream formula which kind of consists of, first the D is that you want to go out and research and discover the top 10 dream companies that you like to work for and who are they, right? And all of this actually comes down back to a lot of self-reflection in terms of what is your vision that you like for your career? What are your strengths, your weaknesses, your preference, your interests, what are you naturally great at? And more importantly, what are your core values? What are you interested? What are your preference? And all this forms your criteria and for you to evaluate what are your top 10 dream companies, right? And once you have that, we move on to the next one which is R. R is reaching out to your dream 100 people, right? So in those 10 companies that you have selected, find 10 people working at companies from the hiring manager to the recruiter, to folks who are online on the design team or even ex-employees from that company as well, reach out to them on LinkedIn, send a connection request with a personalized message, asking them about their career, asking them about how did they make their switch from this company to the next company or this current company, you get a point. But you just want to kind of ask them for advice, ask them for five minutes, 10 minutes of the time so that you can find out more about the company for you to kind of do your research and determine if that is a good fit for you, right? And then we move on to E. E is, and part of that chat as well with them is also asking about the challenges that the company is facing, right? So that you can get a bit of insight knowledge. Then you move on to E. E is then you execute on your MVP, all right? MVP stands for the Minimum Valuable Pitch, right? And this is a pitch that you want to kind of showcase your value in a few slides under like 10, 11 slides of what are some of the research you have done about the company? What are some of the potential challenges, gaps and opportunities that you have observed from interviewing people, chatting with people, doing your own secondary research as well? And what are one idea? What is one solution that you have for each of this in just a simple one-liner text? And then you just put up some reference images and supporting evidence about that, right? Based on customer reviews, customer testimonial and all. Once you kind of compile that deck, on the last slide you want to kind of share a one slider is like, why are you a good fit for this company? Based on your qualifications, based on your past career achievements, as well as some values and how you align to the vision. And you send that in the deck to the person that you just checked on your Dream 100, right? To get their feedback and get their thoughts around it. Again, now we are putting ourselves out there and showcasing the value that we can potentially contribute. Because if they're hiring for a role, typically there is a problem that the company is trying to solve. And the best way for you to do that is put yourself out there and show how can you solve it, right? For me as a hiring manager, I am taking a lot of risks, hiring risks and making sure that I make a good hire, right? I'm only evaluating that based on your portfolio as well as your resume, which are past experience, yes? Your past experience may or may not determine your future contribution. I can make a best educated guess, but there's a risk that I'm making as well. But if you can come forward with a pitch to do risk that for me, make it a no-brainer for me to hire you because you already kind of did the research. You clearly passionate and interested in the role. You like the company, you like the people and you have some ideas to contribute to the team, why not, right? So that is then maybe move on to A, which is asking for feedback on your MVP as you send it out. And M, after that is to make a referral or make an introduction request. So if the person is an ex-employee, ask them if they could introduce you to the hiring manager. If you're speaking to a hiring manager or a design member in the team, ask them if you can make a referral to the hiring manager or the recruiter so that you can get yourself out there. Is this going to be tough? Is this going to be time consuming? Yes, is everyone going to do it? No, is 1% people going to do it? Yeah, maybe the top 1% of job seekers, right? And I'm speaking to you. If you're on this call, clearly you're the top 1% as well, who are putting an extra effort into your career. So I urge you to start thinking, how can you rethink about the job search process and that is going against the traditional role? It still works, you can apply, but now you've got so much time and you make the software and tools to make it so easy for you to apply. Great, how can you then think of other ways to apply as well, right? So it brings your chances, hope that helps. Awesome, man, there's a lot there to unpack, but we are getting so many questions. So let's just dive straight in. So the folks online feel like we are listening because we are. I'm trying to manage everything, but one interesting question was, nowadays we hear a lot about building your own brand, but when should we do it? For example, would you recommend this to someone very new to the field? What's your take on that, Joe? Yeah, definitely you should build your own brand. I think as for designers, and a person branding comes in many forms, right? So there's the visual aspects, there's the name aspects, but more so is also the content that you produce, the comments that you share online, right? Because for recruits and hiring managers, one of the things that we do is beyond just seeing a resume in your portfolio, which is a given, right? You also kind of stalk you a little on your social media profile, just to make sure you're a decent human being, right? And you are actively contributing to the community and all, right? So that is something you want to kind of build up and share and build up your personal brand beyond just the visual aspects and the branding aspects, the logo aspects. Those are given, you need to do, make sure it's nice, but also in terms of how you're contributing back to the community, how you're adding value to the community, those are key things that you want to think about as well. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think adding value to the community is huge. And I also like it when folks kind of build their personal brand by reflecting on what they're good at and what their passions are and also how that overlaps with what a designer needs, so I call this the unfair advantage map. It's basically a version of the Ika guy, let's just say, but it's like, imagine instead of the Ika guy with four concentric circles, you just have three. The top one being like, okay, well, what does a designer need? Basically how you get paid for work and then talent and skill, the things that you can actively work on and then your passion, right? So in the middle is your unfair advantage and if you have that story and narrative kind of oozing out of your online presence, that's really good, right? Like when someone meets you and you have a chat to them, it's immediately clear that you've thought about this and this exercise anybody could do, right? It's not hard. You just need to figure out what you like and what you're good at or aspire to be good at. And I think that's a really interesting approach. Yep, 100%. And true that, that's one of the reasons why I especially love people who change careers, right? I see one is like you're coming from architecture, shifting over to UX design or product designer, that's an interesting move, right? There clearly is a story behind that, share that story, right? I've even helped people who, one interesting one is a guy who is a financial investor, financial crime investigator, right? So someone who investigate financial crimes, right? And it's also a higher director level, but he's kind of bored with that role and he feels like it's not so much too meaningful and he wants to make a switch to UX researcher, as a UX researcher. So help him to try to pivot and utilize those skills. But that becomes an interesting story that you can share in interviews, in your resume, in your portfolios, that helps you to stand up, right? So I particularly love people who are changed careers. I've changed multiple careers in my life and that becomes a story and one of the reasons why people hire me as well. Hmm, right. I think also good design teams and leaders and organizations, they actually welcome diverse thinking, right? Like if you hire people that look like you, that speak like you, you're just gonna produce the same old BS, right? Or the same sort of solutions and you're gonna think about problems the same way. That's why it's so important. And I've also worked with a lot of people from a lot of different backgrounds when it comes to like their previous life, be it industrial design is a popular one, software engineering, artists, or it could be completely left field, right? And those are the people that really add value to the conversation because everybody has a different perspective. So versus seeing it as a downfall or a negative point, I think highlight it. And as Joe said, it really does help you stand out because if you just went to, let's just say the traditional route, it's not that interesting in my opinion as a hiring manager, but if you did something like a crime, financial crime investigator, I'm like, oh my God, there's so many questions I wanna ask you. And that skillset is very niche and hyper specific and obviously you're doing a lot of stuff. So that's absolutely amazing. So yeah, embrace that. I think to follow on with this, it's like, okay, your career switching. And I get this question here, which is like, but what about the age barrier? How does one overcome the age barrier for you, Joseph? Yeah, so that's a great question, right? So the age barrier comes in both ends, right? One being too young or one being too senior or experienced. For, so end of the day for me, ideally companies should look beyond the number, right? Are there gonna be inherent biases there, I think? In some companies, I guess they do. We need to kind of work past that and go beyond that. And there's some things that in terms of the resume, you can kind of look past. So for, let's say folks who are fresh-grossed early graduates, right? One of the ways to kind of overcome one of the areas which is lack of experience, right? And how can you do that is by doing side projects, right? Be a freelance project that you did for a friend or a family in terms of redoing a website or joining a nonprofit or joining a hackathon or joining a business case competition. I, during my time when I was a fresh-grossed, one of the ways that I did was just entering a lot of design competition. My thinking was just so that I can build up my portfolio and got more stuff to show, right? But that's 12 years ago, 10 years ago that I thought about that. But yeah, so that's one way. The other way as well is to kind of highlight your education and different type of causes and interesting things that you did over there. Some people when they're in their resume, they put their education, they just put the school or the cause that it attended and the qualification of the degree or the cert, right? But that is not interesting enough. What are some of the curriculums or the course or the modules that you did there that can become conversational starter for the recruiter or for the hiring manager to pick that interest to wanting to find out more about you, don't just leave it there, right? So if you look at my LinkedIn profile and you go down to my education, you can see some examples of it. So for folks who are senior and more mature, right? So for those then is about, you have a wealth of experience, right? Not all of the experience will be relevant, right? And actually for recruiters and hiring managers, typically we look at the last three rows, two rows, just to kind of see because anything further than that sometimes may be too far away, right? In terms of drawing rather than conclusion. But for those that has more experience, then you wanna figure out, especially your career switcher, figure out what are those transferable skills that you can highlight and bring over and highlight those rows only, right? Rather than showing the entire long history, I know I have all the ways to my internship. Do I show it? No, I don't show it in my resume. My LinkedIn profile, yes, you can see, right? But on my resume, I just put a single line, right? I'll put the year and the date there just to show how many experience I have when I started my career, but I don't put descriptions to it. So I just put three to two, mostly three points per job and the last three to four jobs that's relevant for the role. And that's what I do. So you wanna keep it concise and tailored for the roles that you're applying for. Right, and I just wanna add here as well. And it's a riffing of Joseph, which is you need to figure out these transferable skills, right? Like let's just say you're an older person. So what that means is wealth of experience, right? So not seeing it as a red flag and turning it and this is how you do it. You figure out the transferable skills that that particular UX role needs, right? And some of the fundamentals is like communication, right? That's a huge plus to any designer, right? And then what you do also is you integrate stories from your life of where you displayed those skills because a younger, more inexperienced graduate wouldn't have those skills, right? So you can then articulate a story where one you've dealt with a difficult client in another role or there's some conflict resolution thing you did there or you navigated and you adapted and kind of put something together. Like whatever those transferable skills are for UX designer or that exists in the job description, can you then wrap a narrative around that and then pitch what you did in the past even though it's not from a UX role? Like fundamentally I don't think it matters that much if you can display like a problem solving mindset and actually have these concrete examples of how you navigated that skill itself. And then the second thing is you also have to think about what type of companies, right? So for example, a startup might prefer younger folks, more energy, no work-life balance, just hustle, hustle, hustle. Whereas maybe for a consultancy they want people that present well, right? So their clients, it just seems more credible and those are maybe you're targeting, you need to change your target to that because then it's actually great for you because not only do you get to do the UX work, you actually get to represent the company, right? And that's a bit, that's cool. Like when I did this, I loved presenting to clients, right? I was in the right rooms and I think that is also what propelled my career, right? To be in the right rooms, to speak to executives and that I think is good because you actually learn so much more of where, you know, business stakeholders care about, right? And that's a thing to add on your repertoire as a designer. So, yeah. Yeah, I think it's just to kind of add on to that, especially if you're coming from an internet industry and you're coming from, you're changing career to UX, right? I think the key first goal is to find your first job, yes? And whatever role or industry that you came from says, let's say for some I see there's an English teacher in the audience, there are some hairstyles as well. So, if you're an English teacher before, what do you think are the best fit companies, tech companies or people who require your type of skill in that industry, right? So, for example, is that an English language learning website or software? Like those that kind of teach people English online? Do they need a product designer or UX designer? Because you have the context of teaching English, you know, the increased secrecy and everything, is that something that you can apply your skills, right? Hairstyles is great, right? So, if you're a hairstylist, what is one thing that hairstylists are? Scheduling, appointment, right? So, there's tons of scheduling apps out there, right? Obviously, beyond Canonly, there's a few models as well. So, what is the software that hairstylists use that clearly is a company that will require a UX designer or a product designer that you can give it a try for and try to apply? Nice thing is that you've got a background knowledge. It makes it so much easier to kind of enter because you have that, what we call subject matter expert. You're a subject matter expert of that area. The ramp up time of you onboarding to a company much shorter, much faster, is a plus for the company as well, right? So, something for you to think about. Great, let's go to another question, which is, this one's very long, but let me just simplify it. What do you think about take home assignments or quote unquote, some people call it free work because they're like, oh, can you design this feature? Can you solve this problem for me? What are your thoughts about this, Joseph? Yeah, so this one I wrote previously on LinkedIn post, people get a lot of hate. So it depends, right? So end of the day, we'll have to say this in a politically right way. It's up to you, it's your choice. Do you wish to want to do it or not? It's fully up to you. You have the choice, you have the power, you have the right to choose, right? For those, especially if the role is something that is aligned to you, you really believe in the company, you really like the product, you like the team and everything, you feel a real connection and they still need that, right? One of the reasons why they need that is because again, going back to my example, your resume, your portfolio are showing indicators of past experience and past achievements. How well can you bring those achievements to your current role or the new role? Question mark, right? It's a question mark. So that is why some companies employ take home assignments, design challenges, whiteboard challenges in whatever form it is to kind of de-risk that, kind of answer some of the questions that it might have to validate some of the assumptions that it might have, right? To just see how you perform and how you react, how you think, how you work with the team members so that they can find and make sure that it's a good fit for you as well as for the company and it's a learning experience. So I, it depends on you, for me personally, I've rejected doing some assignments for some other companies because I feel like it's a bit, but so some, I do it, right? And for those that I do, my salary has been quite high, close to 100 or like 90, 80% of offer. So, and typically when that happens, it means that you're either a handful or less than a handful of people that are already deciding on, right? So you are very close towards the finish line. So don't give it a try, but you feel like any point of time that is unclear, it's easy, feel free to drop up. You have that choice and you can focus your time and effort on other opportunities. But at the same time, do encourage and ask questions back to the hiring manager and the team about problems they don't face, some of the assumptions you're making, some of the questions you might have, get them to kind of work. Cause you want to kind of make sure there's some relationship happening as well. It's not a solar exercise that you're just one week or a few days you're just doing by yourself. If that's the case, maybe that's a bit of a red flag. Okay? So think about it. That makes sense. So a lot of people might be thinking, why do I still have to complete a design challenge when I've done a portfolio presentation, for example, right? And like a portfolio is for a different purpose, right? It's to show previous work you've done, hopefully your best work that you're most proud of. However, a design challenge is a way for the hiring company or manager to understand if you can work under pressure, to get more insight to your process with little time, give designers an opportunity to ask great questions, what Joseph just said, and to really get a more accurate sense of the designer skillset. So de-risking as you said, right? And a lot of folks might struggle with it because they're like, okay, well, how do I go and solve it? So these are some questions that you should ask yourself about design challenges before you even dive straight in, right? Don't open Figma, ask these questions first. Like how much time do you have? How much do you know about the product or business? Who are the users? What's the context? How much research do I need? If any, or can I just assume, based on what I asked, the hiring company? How quickly can you do the tests? What fidelity are they looking for, right? All of these questions you should consider. And the pro tip here is also, you need to pick a format that you can show the solution well, right? I recommend a slide deck because you can actually talk about it and present it and then attach your prototype or whatever instead of just like, oh, here's the Figma file, right? So the way you tell that story is also really, really important, right? And there's probably a lot more about this we can talk about but let's address one more question before we wrap up because I know it's getting really late where Joseph is from. So is there one question that you want, Joseph? Anything on the rocket? Let me see, yeah. Actually, I'm happy to answer any. Feel free to pick one, yeah. My eyes, I think it'll be you, I'm getting a bit old. Nothing for too many questions. There's too many questions. Okay, well, okay. Let's just touch on one of the ones that we came up with, right? Which is like, I think everybody, we touched on some of it, but it's like, okay, well, you got shortlisted for interviews and maybe you've done some, but no offers. Like any tips, what's your thought behind that? Gotcha, cool. So great question, right? So for this, so let's kind of break down in terms of what a hiring manager is looking out for, right? So for me as a hiring manager, I look for three fits, right? So the first fit I'm looking out for is the job fit, right? Whether do you fit the requirements of the job, based on your resume, based on your portfolio especially, can you do the job? Essentially based on your skills, based on the quality of work, based on what you're shared in the portfolio. That's why I kind of looked at that, right? So typically in the first interview, I based on my evaluation of the portfolio, I roughly and about 50, 60, 70% sure that you have made an assessment that you could, right? In the chat with me, you can showcase further. I ask deeper questions to just fill up that 10, 20, 30% percent, right? Where I then want to look out for next is your mindset fit. Whether do you have a growth mindset, right? Because one of the things is doing a manager, it's hard to coach and manage someone without a growth mindset who has to fix mindset. If you give them a feedback and they say nah, right? Or they take feedback negatively, or they are not open to learning, not open to growing, very hard to manage, very hard to help them grow, right? To break out of the shell. So what I want to kind of see is have you shared your lessons learned in your case study at the end of it? I know Chris kind of recommends and advocates for this as well. In your resume, especially if you are moving from another career, we're going to talk about it and showcase what you learn about it and how have you translated those skills or are relevant for UX, that'd be great. Or even in the interview process, right? One of the things you want to kind of share, typically out there, there is the star method that is recommended in terms of how you want to answer interview questions, right? Which is the situation, the tasks, the actions that we have done as well as the results. That a few is a bit lacking that you can't showcase your growth mindset, right? So what I then use is either a call method or a problem method, right? So I kind of break it down. So a call method is C stands for context. You want to share the context, which is essentially the situation and tasks, yeah? The problem that you're trying to solve and tasks that you're supposed to do, right? The goal and the objective. The A action, no change, R, results, and L as you guessed it, learning. What have you learned from that experience, right? You want to recap it. If you go with the pull framework, pull is a problem, P, the E is epiphany, right? And then A action, R, learning, results, L learning. So it's roughly the same, right? But it's only the one is the E is the epiphany is like what is the while moment, the aha moment that you can share to kind of create a story arc. But that is the key part, right? And when I listen to people interview or respond in their interview questions and response, either they don't practice it enough and they have very unclear in terms of how they communicate because clearly they didn't practice. So I recommend that actually for every of your job role and your CV, every point that you mentioned, structure it in a car framework, write it down, script it all out. I do for my, for every single one. So when I go into an interview, if anyone wants to ask me about something, I have a story I can share, right? And have a response ready. Nice thing about virtual interviews right now, you can help put your notion dog, your Google dog with all your answers right there and cheat, right? No one's gonna know, no one's gonna know. Or maybe kind of know as they see your eyes darting on the side. But it's a hack, it's available works month around it. But at least prepare and script it all out. One, it gives you confidence about answering and I can sense that. Two, it gives you clarity, yeah? Because you have a structure and it's easy for me as a hiring manager or a recruiter or the design team to listen to your answer and understand the value that you can bring. All right, that's so important. So sometimes a lot of times when they interview you, they don't, the questions and the responses are not well structured, no talk through and well, not well communicated. So we kind of fix that. If you do that along the way, you show their personality along the way as well. So chances of getting shortlisted and moving down the funnel and moving down the hiring pipeline will increase significantly. Wow, that was so many nuggets, especially a framework or three frameworks you shared about how to answer interview questions. That's awesome. And yeah, it reminds me, as you said, like how to tell the story, like just using storytelling within what you're saying, right? So the most popular one is that free act framework, which is set up conflict and resolution, right? And I love adding that learning at the end of it, which really kind of solidifies this gross mindset attribute that you're looking for. And I think that's it, right? Oh yeah, so, oh sorry, my bad Chris. Yeah, so I just remember, I feel, I forgot the last fit. I said there's truth fits. I followed the last fit. Do you mind if I share? Sorry to break off. Please, please, please go for it. Cool, so the last fit, which is actually the most important and just the whole point of the interview is cultural fit, right? I'm looking for a cultural fit, right? So in the interview, I'm looking for someone who I, obviously I know you. I need to like you and you also need to trust you, right? But I look at cultural fit at three levels. So one, it is on a one-on-one level. Me as a hiring manager to you as a candidate, eventually I'm gonna be your manager. I need to work well with you. I need to like you, yes? So can you, maybe through the questions that you ask me, ask me about my career, ask me about shift, ask me about decision, be the relation, be a rapport with me, right? That is key, because you also want to know whether that person is someone you like to work for and work with, yes? Second one is the cultural fit within the team, right? So cultural fit with the team is there's when you interview and chat with the design team or folks from the dev team or the product team. But you wanna kind of see whether it's good fit and the feedback from my team to me about you as a candidate is very important, right? So for example, one of my designers in my last room, one of the questions she asked, I'm not sure it's a joke or it's not, but she was looking for a drinking buddy, yeah? So she asked whether you drink alcohol and you, what's your favorite alcohol and all that. I think she, half serious about it. But that is indicator, right? Depend of how the candidate will handle that question, you see whether they match the same vibe. And the last one is the cultural fit at a company level. And this is where you will be interviewed by either the CEO or my boss, whoever is higher is the head of design or someone is higher than that, the head of product or VP of product, whatever. This is where at their level, what you're interested is how are you aligned with the vision, mission values of the company, right? Cause one of the core things that we are looking out for is to make sure that you stay at a company as long as possible, right? In order for that to happen, your values, if there's alignment, if the vision, the values, the mission and everything, then I can sense that this person is gonna be a good fit, right? Because other than just being a good fit, I want to also make sure that you are a value heir to the organization, to the team, right? For a CEO, for a boss, for a senior executive, that is one of the core things. Cause culture, very, very important, right? And that's why you wanna kind of make sure. So when you're going through your interview, it's not just presenting a portfolio that's like basic and sometimes really not so important cause I really made the assessment there. You want to kind of practice all of your interview skills. And that's why I say career skill is so much more important or at least equally important that you need to go and build and focus to build, okay? Right, Chris, sorry for interrupting you. No, let's just quickly recap those three fit levels that you spoke about. Just quickly repeat that for us. Got you, thank you. So first one is a job fit, which I kind of look at your portfolio, your resume. Second one is your mindset fit, which is your, whether you have a growth mindset. And third one is a culture fit, right? On a one-on-one level with me as a manager. Number two on the team level with my team. And number three is on the company level with the organization, right? So I'm looking for all these three fits. Okay, brilliant. That's really thorough. You've probably built like rubrics and frameworks, how to test people on scales based on a number of different things, exactly. That's amazing. So I think a lot of job seekers don't kind of think that way, right? They're like, okay, I'm just gonna show my best self in the interview and see what happens. So the thread here, I think what Joe shared about it, and I think the folks on the call should be cognizant of is that it's really, really important to understand who that person is in front of you, right? And the role and what the company's about, their values, their missions, the designers on the team, like everything that you can do to understand that, the better prepared you are walking in because you're already like, oh, he went to Harvard. So I'm just gonna bring up Harvard and be like, how the hell did you get it? Like, anything that kind of triggers a conversation starter, like ability, of course, you don't wanna be disingenuine, right? You wanna actually be genuine. So hopefully your research will make you at least arm you with stuff so you can kind of bring up, talk about, and if it aligns your values and passion, then we can see your eyes light up, right? If you're genuinely excited about working for this NGO, great. Like, so yeah, being prepared, right? And of course, knowing what to expect. And I think a lot of people also like, okay, I'm in the interview and they've failed to prepare by figuring out the company, but also failed to prepare by asking questions before walking in. Like, anything the recruiter can do to help you, I think they will, right? I think that's just healthy behavior and it's just like polite. So you can just be like, okay, well, what are you guys looking for? Do you know the questions being asked? Like, don't feel like you're being too pushy. It's just, you know, it's your time as well. So have that confidence and be like, okay, well, is there something I need to prepare? Like, what should I look at? And then of course you have to be proactive with yourself and be like, look, if I'm gonna interview for Facebook, I already know a bunch of stuff about them. What could I find out that nobody else knows? Or at least the deep dark Reddit, right? So the discussion with that. And, you know, do your research. Easy places are like, Glassdoor, what did the previous employees say? Reddit is great, but just get into the nooks and crannies of like YouTube with interviews with that person they've probably done, like if it's a, I don't know, head of design, they've probably done an interview or a podcast somewhere. So you can find that out pretty easily. So just prepare, prepare, prepare, and get those reps in, I think is the last one, which is you could quite easily role play interviews, right? Just you and a buddy, and they could say, okay, just like be the hiring manager. These are the questions. Throw any of them out at me. There's a list of 20, see how I do it, right? Or you can record yourself speaking and then play it back to be like, okay, I said too many ums and rs. That isn't good. I didn't have my story correct. So getting the reps is also super, super important. Okay, we are a little bit over time. Anything to add Joseph or we can just kind of wrap this up. No, just gonna build on the last point, right? Doing the research and asking the question is such an underrated thing, yeah? So many people in an interview, they don't ask questions. I asked them like, do you have any questions for me, my team? No, pretty clear. Really? I did at least every single thing in my job description. There's so many things about the company, the culture, the product, the challenges. You know, you sure? Like it's a two-way conversation, right? So I really need to do a bit of research and ask. So you want a quick hack? Just go and Google like, what are questions to us, right? Even though standard basic questions are better than none, right? And you can easily get a five to 10. If you want to do something better, then go and research and look at the, as Chris said in Glassdoor, customer reviews, ex-companies. I personally like to look at like annual reports if it's a big company or last-selling calls or the latest news about the company. Those are very interesting or social media posts from the company or the employees of the company. Ask about that. Those are interesting and fun. And it shows the research to the hiring manager and the interviewer that you've done your research. There is an intent, you are interested in the role. Clearly someone who is not interested won't do all this time and effort or spend this time and effort, right? So one of the key things that indicate to us to do is the hiring is to kind of make sure that you're interested and excited about the role, right? So do that research. It goes a long way and ask the questions. Remember, at least three to five, please, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I have to add on to that. But the simplest way to do some research is if they have a consumer product, right, like an app on the app store, just download it and play with it. Like, I've also had people come in and it's like, no, I didn't even look at your website. I was like, what? I mean, I like the honesty and I appreciate that, but you didn't even look at the website. Like, that is super unprepared and that is just not a good first impression to set. Okay, so on Joe's last point of, people don't ask questions. I've had that too and it's a huge turnoff. And it's like, okay, so what are you doing here if you don't actually care, right? So I'm just gonna read out some questions that you might ask. So this is gonna be recorded. So you don't need to write it down, but these are some things if you really don't know what to ask, have these in your back pocket, right? So what are the specific problems the design team are solving day to day, right? What does success look like for a designer in this company? Can you share examples of effective collaboration that designers and their partners have in the company, right? Where does design show up in the production process, the product development process, right? You kind of wanna understand or at least you wanna be more strategic and zoom out and be like, okay, well, where do I fit in in this picture? How does the design team decide how to prioritize, right? Tell me a time when things weren't going well on the team and who raised the flag? Like just genuinely be interested and the questions would come up, right? But if you don't, like, let's just say you're a junior, you just really don't know how product development works and design works in teams, then having a few of these in the back pocket, like, you know, what's the expectation of my role? Is the easy one, et cetera, et cetera, right? So hopefully that has helped you. Yeah, and just to add a few more questions because Chris talks about the product and the team and challenges. I will add on from, let's say, questions that you can ask about the hiring manager, right, especially for first interview with the hiring manager, you wanna build a rapport, you wanna build a relationship. So ask them and you just go to your LinkedIn profile, right? And you can see what is the last route that it did, the last company, last position and the current run. So you ask them, how do you find a transition from past company to current company? Do you notice any cultural differences between working at these two companies? Next one, how long have you been working with this current company and why did you decide to continue and stay? What is motivating? What is your favorite part about working here? What is so special about a culture here that attracts that you and keeps you here, right? Third one is what are you most excited about the future of the company, right? What is your vision for the company? What's your vision for the team for the next two, three years? What are the possible impacts and outcomes you hope to and you'd like to see, right? Those give you a whole sense of the hiring manager's motivation and we should also, we should hopefully encourage you and like kind of convince you, you know, is a good place to go to. And also in terms of their vision for the future, we should also hopefully excite you because if that future is not in line with your future, you will know, right? You don't have to wait for three, six months to be dissatisfied with your job and kind of like take a step back, right? So yeah, great questions. Awesome, okay. So before we go, I also want to ask the question to the audience. They can't join in, but if you can, which is in the comments, if we should do more of these, right? It was very casual. We had sort of a high level topic but went around with these questions. So if you enjoy this, drop a emoji down there so we know to keep on doing this or what you want to talk about next time. But yeah, just drop any emoji. My favorite one is the fire. Joe, do you have a favorite emoji? The one that looks like me with the spectacles with the bug teeth, that's my one. Yeah, that's the one I use. If not, it's a yellow heart, right? Kind of fit my branding. But yeah, so when Chris and I kind of chat about this, it was just a random idea that we had. I thought it would be cool to kind of do a collab and answer some of our audience questions, which I thought was a great thing. So yeah, if you'd like us to do more, please feel free to drop a comment. I see a lot. Thank you very much. It's very meaningful. It's late over here. My baby boy just slept. So I got the time to do this. So I really appreciate you for listening on as well. Yeah, we appreciate you taking the time out too, Joe. That was super good. So before we go, how do people find out about you more and is there anything you want to plug? Sure. All right, so if you want to follow me, just follow me on LinkedIn. If you're not, haven't followed me, I post daily UX career tips, mostly focusing on your job interview, your job search, standing out, how to do referrals and all. So all that, all the how to network, all that I post daily. So if you haven't followed me, feel free to follow. Every Tuesday I post a carousel, which goes very in depth. And if you like some of those carousels, I've got five free career guides or carousels or guides available on my gum road. Go to my profile. You can download them. If you wish to get more, because I got about coming to about 20 guides and plus templates and sample and I'll continue to build them. If you like, I'm currently doing a promo of $15, right? It's already 50% off of $30. It's actually a quite a no-brainer that will continue at resources on a monthly basis on that. So for only for the first 200, if you like, hopefully go in, make a purchase. I will keep on dating it every week or every month as I got more new resources. And I'm have other plans in terms of what other best ways can I help. So I'm doing some surveys or some research. So you can click on the next link to join my with list. There's a bunch of questions, fill those up so I can figure out what are the best ways that I can help you as well on your job search. Awesome. Yeah, Joe post, Joseph post is like really good content around jobs. Super thorough, every post is gold. Save it, go follow him, find him on LinkedIn and his gum road is also a treasure trove of resources. So if I only needed to plug something is my job sprint, a six week program designed to get you your job on your own terms, right? If you could get any job that you would eventually leave, what is the point, right? So walking you through step by step, the system I use and teach to get this dream role that you so, you know, desire, right? Your values matching the companies, you know how to analyze job descriptions better. And fundamentally is where you're gonna thrive and grow, right? A company that you can stay longterm. So the job sprint, it actually closes in terms of applications on Sunday, the 15th of October. So there's literally two more days to apply. I'm only taking six students and we have two or even one, like before I updated one spot left. So please go apply to join the first cohort of this kind is officially on my LinkedIn and just check the link. So let's sign off and say good night to Joseph everybody for being here, it's awesome, man. Thank you so much. Awesome, thanks everyone. And do sign up. I know personally Chris has put a lot of time and effort in building that course, building that thing. And he always over delivers, right? As you would, if you see. So please go and sign up if you really need the extra help, Chris got your back, right? All right, and we are out. Peace. Peace, thank you.