 Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I'm joined by Mr. William Johnson to talk about ethnomusicology. William welcome to the podcast. Hey, hey, hey What's happening everyone? Thank you Bart for having me. It's really good to have you here We we we only met a couple like a week or so ago week or two ago through Instagram And I'm very glad you reached out because I love when everyone reaches out But sometimes it's it's more of like hey check out my drum video or like my thing with you It was hey, I have you know, I'm doing cool stuff and I checked out your page and your YouTube and it's like yeah This this dude is legit. I appreciate it. I'm very humbled and honored. I was actually Reaching out. I mean, I thought it would be cool to be on the show But honestly I listened to the show and I have some I'm into what you talk about So I was just reaching out like hey because I get it, you know When you make content sometimes you're just throwing it out there sure You don't know who's listening. So it's always really nice to get feedback from oh, yeah, those that are listening or watching Yeah, yeah, you have a an attention to detail that I could tell and just like a teacher's kind of brain in a way of like explaining things and going about it which the I pretty quickly we were talking about things we could talk about and the topic of ethnomusicology just in general the like That title is people may not know anything about it. So I think today we're gonna talk about Obviously ethnomusicology what it is how it relates to drumming how it relates to other stuff as well Cultures all kinds of stuff. So we got a lot of stuff to talk about so How about we start off with just the definition of what it is. Okay. Yeah so and I'll give I'll preface it with The best way we can truly define ethnomusicology at least by in the words of a lot of different scholars and academics is probably in what various Ethnomusicologists actually do just like any field, right? So if you're an electrician, we know there's a base But you might be it might be hard to define what you do So we say that electrician over there does this architectural whatever so we we know we have three words It's a it's a big word and it sounds intimidating But really when you break it down to its definition you have three words. So you have ethnomusic and ology, right? So you have ethno, which is meaning I believe it's Latin but for people groups, right? So then you have the music music and then you have the ology so the study of When you just look at all three of those you can already see That this would be quite a thing to define because how do we even define music for Eons, we've been trying to define that, you know, depending on your background You may say well, it's just what you listen to on the radio But once you go around the world you start finding out We even up in between our own homes here in the United States. I believe you're in the US as well Yeah, we might we might have commonalities of what we say music is but even in different cultures here in the US Some genres we say that's not music or if you go to a mosque in the United States Certain prayers and chants may or may not be viewed as music as such like we say commodities or entertainment on the radio So music even the definition muse Greek mythology I mean we're borrowing terms that even described something that already exists people groups You have social constructs. You have ethnicity of heritage very deep You can go very deep, but at the same time they start kind of crossing boundaries already and then the study So the study of something so you have how do you study it? There's debates within that. There's methodologies, right? So basically we can say that ethnomusicology is the study of culture within music Okay, that's really at the base But again, the more you even break down the semantics of that We could talk about the definition for an hour and only end up more confused But I think if you say the culture of culture within music I think is a pretty safe place to kind of start a pivot from yeah No, that's great because you summed it up very well, but as you said it it then begs for more Questions and examination of what you know, which cultures what music it's like. How do you study it? It's all kinds of things like that I mean, so then you your background in this Let's talk about that a little bit and then what you focused on and kind of your areas of expertise a little bit It's so it's so interesting to see think even what got you into this It's got to be a little bit daunting at first a day one of class What are we studying? Yes, and I think that would tie in great with what us as drummers, you know as percussionist Now depending on your background and I'll tell you how I got into it was really I was doing the music and then I was I spent now back up just tell you very briefly a little bit about myself I was in the military for just under 10 years. I was in the United States Air Force and When I got out I got married shortly after I got out of the Air Force and I was retraining I was an aircraft mechanic and I did that as a civilian and in the Air Force But I was also a homeowner a new homeowner and settling down with the family And my area didn't have a whole lot of going on with aviation even though I loved it But I was also doing music and so, you know, I had a GI bill and just got out of the military So, you know spoke with my wife We decided that you know after my contract ended with The job that I was doing for the aircraft because I was a contractor Decided to go back to school and in going back to school I was studying finance in history and ended up swapping those two to majoring in finance I like to tell people I was dating finance, but I was in love with history So I went ahead my mother-in-law was like, why don't you just go ahead and major in history, you know But my mind was like why at that age I was almost 30, you know, so I'm like, why would I? Major in something that I'm probably not gonna make a whole lot of money in you know Yeah, really so but but I knew that if I really loved it and I was creative enough I would find a way right and so I decided to major in history And I figured I would go into teaching. I love teaching. I've always loved teaching I've always been teaching in some aspect and so after my undergrad I decided I wanted to also teach higher learning even though I teach I was teaching little kids all the way up I wanted to teach on a college campus and you know if you're gonna do that unless you have a Grammy Unless you are have a really big name and then have a way in because the politics of you know Academic institutions you pretty much have to have a master's degree or higher, right? And so I decided to get my you know master's degree and then just keep plugging away You know gigging and and working while I was doing that, you know So which is funny because now I do that a little bit But I actually get a lot of my jobs because of my gigs even teaching that's interesting learning But but the master's degree was a door in so in a nutshell I got into the ethnomusicology because of what I was doing with Afro Cuban music West African music Being a percussionist playing in gospel and funk I was always adding the sounds and I was studying music from around the world I was studying tabla from East India and so When I heard about the ethnomusicology program It was kind of after a while. It was a no-brainer. It was like yeah, I think I could teach anthropology Which has the historical and the cultural aspect which I love because I've done a lot of traveling And I'm really big into people and cultures and then it was the music aspect the musicology, you know Yeah, it was daunting for me though because I didn't start off reading music, you know I started off. I learned I was self-taught at first I started off as a dancer, you know salsa. Oh, wow I was a dancer or a hip-hop first and then I was a dancer and then I started playing the drums What some consider later like 19 years old That was a segue into, you know, the salsa of the whole that whole, you know scene And then from there starting to play in the drums and playing the bands but um, but yeah Eventually that led into playing in bands, but I wasn't you know in the conservatory So I wasn't reading music But in the process of that I started taking lessons and then learning how to read music, you know as you progress It helps to at least be able to read a little bit Yeah, but the program I was able to get into the program because of my recordings So I was in the you know the Grammys as a voting member and doing a lot of session work So because of that I was able to get into the program But the person that was letting me in warned me. He said you have to have at least two years Education-wise of piano. He said there is gonna be some transcription And we know if you take percussion in school if you have a music degree You're gonna have to do some piano a lot of its vibe based marimba or what Sure, so so that was the daunting thing Bart is that I had to learn how to sight read to a certain extent I had to learn the music and I got stories about that. I mean as far as sitting in class looking around I'm the only guy that doesn't have an undergrad in music, you know, and it was just like that was very good for you It pushes you very good. Yes. Yes push. Yeah Man, you're not a boring guy. That's for sure. I mean, there's a lot of different Elements that make up, you know, your background, which I think it all leads to this But like that all leads to ethnomusicology of being very I don't want to say broad But it kind of has an open it lets you do what you want a little bit You can study what you want which you sent over some good bullet points, which I'm looking at here, which It's almost like you you have to choose a path to go because we could talk You can't in an hour or whatever talk about every single culture in the world and every single instrument They play but Latin percussion that's something that you are passionate about Maybe we hop in with that and talk about Latin percussion a little bit and then move on from there Yeah, sure. Sure. So my background getting into Latin percussion and I'll kind of expound a little bit upon even that You know when we say that yes But my background is my mom's side of the family is from Puerto Rico. So I you know, I grew up in Los Angeles, though So I grew up with mariachi, Tejano, Norteño music a lot of you know More in the Western and Mexican style music because I grew up in a neighborhood that was basically a vario and But you know, I my mom's side is family from Puerto Rico. So as I got older I still was exposed got exposed to you know, Cuban music because there is a Very close thread with Cuban music in Puerto Rico, right? The cultures are very similar so, you know, I got into salsa and with with that But there are what 20 or 21, I believe Latin speaking Spanish speaking Nations, okay. So and when we say Latin America, we also include often Haiti countries like Haiti within that even though That's a French speaking French Creole Haitian Creole speaking nation. So within these 2021 countries and territories you have Their own traditions within those countries you have regions within those regions. You have traditional styles of percussion and music Within those regions, you have several regions. So in a country just like Brazil, you may have Dozens upon dozens of genres That when we say Latin percussion is just in this one nation Yeah, here in the United States When we say Latin percussion because of the ubiquitous nature or pervasiveness of the conga drum and the bongos We often think of Cuban music. That's where these drums are now They're all of the African diaspora, you know, this this can be a conversation that triggers a lot of people to say That's African it you gotta say the Africa. Well, I think everybody under a lot of people know that so within the community So we don't often say that but it is an evolution of West African music but Afro-Cuban music salsa Now again, this is this is this can be a debated issue again This is one where people go. Oh, you can't say that but it's as American as American pie you know when you talk about the history of Mambo and the golden years and the relationship between the United States and Cuba especially before the embargo You can't take out what we hear now of and salsa is a pop music It's it's a genre, you know, but it's built off of Cuban music But you when you you have to talk about New York and you have to talk about the technology of the phonograph and recording And so you can't take the United States out of that equation when we talk about from our standpoint When we say Latin percussion, so when we say Latin percussion, we're often thinking of the bongos So the congas, you know, Afro-Cuban music as well as Dominican music because of the merengue, right? Bachata music, you know, Juan Luis Guerra very famous pop artists in the Latin Spanish-speaking genres, so I Personally play more than anything else Afro-Cuban Puerto Rican percussion, so you have the congas I mentioned the timbales, you know various types of cowbells But in Puerto Rico, you have also the plana drums, which are a tambourine without the jingles It's basically a frame drum and then you have the bomba drum, which is a barrel It's like a wine barrel turned into a drum, so the barri less And then I've also gotten into Brazilian drums over the last few years But I've been playing conga drums for about 25 years now So that kind of music is what I've really been into But yeah, we could talk about I have some right over my shoulder like right there are some Colombian maracas So when we think maracas, we think the Puerto Rican style or the Cuban style, but the Puerto Ricans have their own maraca The Colombians they have their own maracas, Venezuela. They have Joropo So anyways, that's a diatribe. No, that's that's interesting on that note Just like there of the study of the instruments versus the music being played versus the culture I mean The the the actual physical percussion instruments. There's so Many and I've gone down the rabbit hole of like, you know posting videos online of like And that that's the same with Like Asian cultures where there's so many different varieties And a lot of them aren't like a slight variation of like some drums you go, all right, that looks like this drum It's a little bit bigger. It's a little bit longer. So it gets a different name Some of them many of them are just Worlds apart Do you think cultures are coming up with new instruments at this point or are we pretty much set with what we have? Yes, and and you you'll see examples of of Instruments coming up that are becoming that are evolving We can take we can go back a little bit farther when we talk about drums and something that could be connected Uh and just talk about the last 100 years when you look at You and I when we think about steel drums from trinidad We we grew up with they always were there. Yeah, but really like the drum set That's a more newer phenomenon. That's built on an older tradition, right? but But yeah, the and and you mentioned the instrument itself and and to tie that into ethnomusicology really There's a lot of terms we ascribe terms to things that already existed, but Semiotics is another term that you hear of in the world of of anthropology and ethnomusicology Which is basically the study of signs and symbols and when you ascribe it to uh music Then you have semiotics within ethnomusicology. Now you have What that particular thing so semiotics as like the instrument when you and I see a snare drum A lot of people might just see a drum We see it culturally from an inside perspective But there may not be Disconnection to grandma and grandpa the way and that heritage going way back The way a wheat chateau, which is a little guido made out of a gourd in Puerto Rico That may be or the cajon from Peru Where someone who doesn't even play it sees that and there is a very close nostalgic very close deep sense of identity with just the the shape Of that instrument and the texture and sound of that instrument, right? Which actually leaves me something to something that you may appreciate that I think a lot of our listeners will is uh, we often say things like Music is a universal language Something that you often hear from people within the field of ethnomusicology is that that is not accurate Now we know that for the sake of communication. There are music is a phenomenon It's a universal well even that I don't know it's fully accurate But it's definitely a universal phenomenon. It happens all over the world, right? But there are things within music that we don't always understand And it's kind of like one of those things. You don't know what you don't know Yeah, or we can go as simple as If you take a certain type of music And it's played and it sounds happy to you It may not sound like happy music in another part of a world So so music in and of itself we could take let's take an example the clave for instance. We talked about latin music Here in certain parts of the united states, you might hear like a rhythm of the clave Let's say son clave, which is let's say it's three two one two three Right, we may hear that it's just a rhythm and you hear that in latin music But you don't have to have that rhythm within the ensemble For it to be prevalent So the clave actually out as a producer sometimes I help people outside of the genre Get a latin feel if they want a fusion song And there have been times where I'll tell people hey, I can give you the latin feel on the percussion But and I don't want to I don't want to overstep my boundaries here But your bass and your piano are not following that that clave So it's not just a rhythm But it's actually dictating the entire Everybody it's a key clave means key in spanish. So it's actually the key to what's happening So now if you just come in and play that over it someone else in that culture might go Yeah, but the the person who's kind of a novice I guess or just like A layman would be like well, I just want a latin percussion feel You know like a broad but I like what you're saying where it's like, well, there's a lot more to it and there's culture behind it and stuff And so we talk about just yeah, just yeah, and so when we say that the music is a universal language There can be that's true to the sense like I can I can if I'm in china somewhere or west africa and I have a guitar in my hand and I play and he starts dancing or whatever We are communicating something to each other We're always communicating But what's communicated isn't always understood the way that I understand it Once I get that and take that to the next step As a musician that actually helps me to learn different feels a lot better Because now I'm not being ethnocentric. I'm not taking my ethnic background And making the center and then just ascribing a definition on everything. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah That's so interesting. I mean, it's almost like how you you know, if I go like Like put my hands to my mouth in a culture It means like I'm hungry or something like that or like point to my eyes It's like look look here or like look there But there's a million things beyond that. We all know that's the basic basic elements of like Communication, but uh, that's interesting. You say that because that is such a you know, it's such a happy music is the universal language It's it's happy the way but but there is a lot more to it where Yes, that may be the case, but you really do need to dig deeper. It's the universal language, but you can't Overlook the what makes everyone unique and what makes each culture I'll give you an example part. There's times where Uh, I've had people come from other countries and get almost insulted or really confused And they'll go to like let's say a church They might go to a predominantly black church and they go to a home home going service Right, which we know it's not just in black churches, but they go and the music's really and they might hear where It's really happy and they're really exuberant There's times of mourning during that service, but it may also be a lot of joy And that music that's played some people Feel that that's really uh, what's I'm looking for another word not necessarily insulting, but it's trite and it's not You know respectful because in their culture you got to be more Maybe it's quiet more reverent. They'll us say reverent But in this particular Context reverent may also be attached to we're celebrating We believe that that person lived a good life We want to remember them and also there may be a religious aspect We believe that person is in heaven and now they're released from the pain of this world And so when you understand it within that context, then it makes sense second line drummers Uh, that's what I was thinking. Yep. Exactly. So there's there's a lot of that and when we talk about A lot of people say, oh, well, that's all throughout the world if we're in the united states, but really The united states is to me is it's such fascinating country We're talking about 50 states and territories and there's so many different cultures and subcultures And that just can blow your mind. You're like, I had no I always thought of america as this Uh, it there's a video. I'm a big mark anthony fan And there's a video with him and a group called hente lesona, which they're like a reggaeton group from, uh, cuba I believe they're from cuba and in the in the video I believe there's all these flags because they're talking about latin america and And a lot there's these ladies that are dressed with the flag different colors like flags and they have these flags And there's I believe there's one lady that has like the united states I believe I could be wrong, but it's still to my point I personally and there's a lot of people that feel the same way I see the united states as an extension of latin america I grew up in the vodio. You have the southwest california was once a part of of mexico Um, so you depending on where you're at and where you grow up Then it's like all So it's just all of these different ways of looking at things, you know And I think as a drummer and a musician It can really take your ears to that next level Because really what ethnomusicologists do if we want to talk about similarities is is learn how to ask questions and to listen This episode is brought to you by pocket percussion in willow grove pennsylvania right outside of philly pocket percussion and mangello symbols are having a series release party at the shop on september 8th From 11 a.m. To 6 p.m. There will be prizes and raffles. So you won't want to miss it pocket percussion sells used gear stands symbols Custom drums snares hand percussion vintage gear plus hard to find parts and everyday necessities In addition to buying selling and taking trades. He also does great repairs and re-heading Learn more at pocket-percussion.com and keep up with their newest gear on instagram and facebook at pocket percussion so there's two things i'm thinking of of One being how sometimes the music from america is generalized as western music But it kind of seems like what you're saying just blows that out The the window where it's like well, but there's so many cultures within that or you say Eastern music and you think of like traditional like I don't know like stringed instruments that are very it has like a like an asian feel to it or something Or middle eastern feel But it's just it's almost uh, I don't want to say not fair But it's it's over generalizing things where you need to zoom in more and and study it more You know, I mean it's how would you if if someone said like oh, I don't uh, you know, that's just western music How would you respond to something like that about american music in general because even pop music seems to have All these roots in it. It's like an onion. They just have to keep peeling Yes. Well, exactly. I think the for For the average listener, perhaps it's not even a musician or a musician that's just been within rock and roll I think a little bit like you alluded to it a little bit or I believe you were uh, would be a history lesson and say Okay, well, let's go back but not even too far back. Let's talk about michael jackson and they don't care about us you know, uh Some of these rhythms were were taken from other parts of the world Sure, we put a backbeat on them But even when we talk about a backbeat, okay Well, let's talk about boom bap and rock and roll and let's talk about The the history and the foundation upon that and when you start doing that Then you start seeing oh my goodness Okay, so the idea the fact remains is that there's no I like what um, Ned sublet he's a author He wrote something in there's a music called cuba and it's music of the book really good book about cuba music And he wrote in the beginning of the book. He said there's no immaculate conception within music I think that's a really good for those that are not initiated You know the virgin mary and you know just god impregnating a woman all of a sudden boom. It's here That doesn't exist unless you have transcended humanity Now I am I'm quite religious or spiritual person As christian my faith. So I do believe as a spiritual person that music is spiritual And sometimes people are getting things that are deposited even if you're not religious Some people will play say things like hey stevie wonder got that from somewhere Okay, some some you know Someone's they've got a special gift. That's not that came that's that's unique, right? But there's even There's no just boom and then it just came it came from somewhere Right. Yeah, and so I tell you something interesting that happened to me in my in my the beginning of my studies of my graduate work Was I was reading a textbook and that's the other thing when we talk about ethnomusicology We talk about the history of it We have to talk about academic institutions, right? Do we to preface it because what we're really talking about is contemporary Current history well over the last maybe hundred and twenty hundred and fifty years or so But the our academic institutions are the framework that are we're talking about here because it existed before we called it that I was reading a textbook and now I came into the study as Someone thinking the music that I came from as far as Uh music that I grew up listening to that. I liked the most, you know So as a young man, it might have been hip-hop. It might have been jazz It might have been, you know, just a lot of a pop music that's prevalent in the united states Even though I did listen to a lot of other stuff I'm reading this textbook and it's talking about western music and it's talking about non-western music And man, I had this epiphany. I'm reading a book and all of a sudden it's talking about non-western music It gets into the african-american Section so it starts talking about gospel music starts talking about jazz starting talking about blues You know and I'm like, wait, wait like That's western music because I'm think that's this music that came natural to me growing up my On my dad's side of the family. They were church of god in christ, you know, he was a he was a preacher But that also means that he was a singer played the piano my version of amazing grace Was had a certain Pentatonic scale to it. Yeah, that stuff that just comes natural to him that I hear and recognize So I'm thinking that's as western as you know, as western can be Yeah, but it really depends on your pov, right your point of view And so then it was like, oh I was not thinking about the history Of imperialism colonialism academic institutions people now discovering this new world becoming wealthier as a country commercialization European music in the form of classical music 12 note scale commoditizing this music now Now becoming in a part of a larger commercial economic society And now traveling and now wanting to write about other music But who are these people that are doing that? And it may not have been the african slave The indigenous person in the united states So you have so understand when I saw that and I was like, oh So there's different and and that leads us to different factions and different branches Because you know, ethnomusicology is like a river and tributaries different ethnomusicology. So Then I was like, oh So a lot of the people that were studying the ethnomusicologist came from a more classical music background a written notation background interesting. Yeah. So now when you look at Rock and roll you and I are used to rock and roll and it probably comes natural to us just like that Yeah, when you go back just to the 1950s Little richard in the 60s and james brown and whatnot. These are newer phenomenons. You know, I was born in 1978. So 1978 I mean you talk about rock and roll was not it was starting not too long before that. Yeah, yeah But it's not it wasn't considered western music the the roots of it. And matter of fact blues music that music was not it was frowned upon And here in the united states for many years before the british invasion and in elvis presley That was not played as pop music accepted within our country Right. Yeah, so when you understand that history regardless of what your political beliefs and all that this is just it is what it is Right, then it's like oh, okay. Now. I can understand these western terms a little bit more in eastern terms But it was shocking to me as a latino and african-american man that that wasn't that was in the non-western section of the textbook and it was like Well, do you think that as you've learned more It's almost like what you said about like what you don't know you don't know like as you've learned more and become more I mean you've studied ethnomusicology that you then it it Make becomes more complicated for you where you can't just sit there and happily go Oh, this is western music where it's broken out further Do you think that it's a little bit more of like you want it to be separated and and appreciated for each Individual piece that it is like instead of just saying oh, that's latin percussion You want to say no, no this is this this is this like do you find that you maybe don't like those Over generalizing terms. I mean you have to understand in our day and age of just communication that it is what it is Yeah, but are you a little bit more? We should dig deeper on everything I well the so There's different sides of me, you know and uh the purists in the traditionalist and the culture side of me, of course wants people to know more but I also understand that I don't know I don't consider my now Here's what maybe the imposter sent your own creeps in but I don't consider myself an expert even though in cuban music Even though I've been playing Kongas and other instruments for you know Going on 30 years now. I don't consider myself an expert. There's one thing to play the instrument. It's another thing to be a folklorist Even here in this country. We have even in in pop music We have folklorists and people that study folk music and know it from a scholarship As sure so but But there's a purist in the traditional side of me, but there's also the child in me It's just like look dude. I just like music I don't if I'm going walking down the street And I'm in orlando of going to disney world with my kids and my wife or not and there's some street Uh, some guys on the side of the plan and disney world and there's a guy playing kongas And he I maybe I can tell that his hand technique is different. You know, it's maybe not all that great in my opinion But it sounds good to me and I'm vibing. He's guy. He's expressing emotion. I just love music I don't really care that side of me doesn't really care at the end of the day You do have to communicate as you said so I do I don't I use these terms like salsa Salsa is a heated the term itself is a heated debate has been for many years Not as much now because we're kind of over it in some aspects but you know, but But that was the thing there, but at the same time though, it's like But what these Puerto Ricans in new york did they created some really good music So there's a lot of Cubans that aren't necessarily mad at that. There are some that's like, uh, but There's a lot of Cubans that love music. It's a music country. It just you know, expresses it So I feel similar in the aspect that for me, it's like dude at the end of the day You know, and I think it's a lot music and language There's even terms we use in ethnomusicology that have come out of linguistic studies um, like emic and eddick inside and outside perspectives, but Language is highly connected to music because you know, they almost become one in the same even the way we use analogies for for language and sometimes We we have to use uh words To to just kind of express we get there and then we can kind of start discussing it from there But we need a point of departure, right? Yeah, exactly. I mean you can't be too It's almost like if someone is too like if you're just trying to have a conversation with someone Like you're a very nice guy if we were just talking or you're talking to a non drummer You would use broad terms to just not be a a snob You know what I mean? You don't want to be like you're not gonna be like that's not the right term That's not solstice. That's you you want it to be like Approachable and then if someone's more interested which kind of leads me to the question of You know without going to down the academic route of like maybe someone's 15 years old and they're really interested in what we're talking about. They're not going to get a master's in this What's a good approachable way for someone who's uh, you could be 65 years old Whatever good approachable way for people to maybe Dip their toe into ethnomusicology like how how does one Begin the process of again not even on an academic level for work or whatever. It's more of just like um Just for your own sake of you know the the the quest of knowledge. How do you start that? Yeah, I think the big thing number one is relationships, right? So Building relationships and cultivating them and then learning how to listen and ask questions Uh, like I mentioned linguistics There is a close relationship in theologies of of people anthropology linguistics with Framing a question To someone so for instance if you're 15 or 16 years old And you want to get into maybe you you you just play prog rock and you don't know Even though some of the prog rock uh band uh leaders that you listen to they may be Playing certain stuff in their music, but you don't know how to differentiate it and you want to learn more You want to broaden your horizons. There may be someone at your school Right, if you're young or if you're older that you work with that comes from a these cultures or certain cultures So the first thing is just looking at an instrument and maybe looking up the history We have yeah, it was such an amazing time where you can google things now, right? Yeah So um, how many times have you or I grabbed an instrument or a word? And found out later There's this huge background to that instrument or that word this etymology study of words and you're like Why didn't I think wow I just opened up a whole new world? I think just by picking up an instrument And then Looking up the background of that instrument Is a good start for instance. Um, just a lot of young people have no idea Where this started This brush or so those that are listening and not watching listening to a brush in my hand like for jet Right the fact that this came from fly swatters Yep Already it's like wait wait wait wait So someone Around the turner shortly after the turn of century. So the 20 shortly after 1910 you could correct me on that but Decided to start so this it hasn't just been forever, but someone Who mace who was alive not too long ago was alive not too long It was alive back when this was sure becoming a thing You know, um, but then when you look at how why did that become a thing? Some people say brushes became a thing because they were listening to tap dances Right, that's what some say. Yeah sliding of the feet on now. It's a debated thing, but so now you have rhythms That sometimes come from A place where you can't take with music period. You cannot take the social aspect out Yeah, when you understand if you're trying to learn a certain feel you can sometimes get there Uh, not necessarily quicker because you got to do the work. You got to listen listen listen But sometimes you can get to a quicker bit of understanding when we understand the social Aspect behind it. It also leads us to want to talk less and ask more questions For instance behind me on this big bass drum for those that listen is a big bass drum behind me There's a couple things that are down there and this leads still on your your um Your question how as a young person, how would I get into into this? Okay? Yeah Just looking up some history of the instruments It might really p you're already doing that and since it leads you to new knowledge It may also inspire you to want to ask more questions Let's say you find out that this is from this culture Whatever now you might have friends and they're talking and they say instead of just saying oh, yeah, that's just will that's so-and-so It's just like hey will where did you say you're from la? How did you get into this music? Oh? Well, how do you view that drum? Do you just view it as just playing a rhythm or all actually? I'm glad you asked that when I play the conga drums. There's a connection to my grandfather I feel like that, you know, my grandfather is from Puerto Rico. He loved rumba music I'm one of I have a large family So I'm not the only percussionist, but I'm one of a few That play this music and I'm passing that along and and I feel that there's also a sense of representation Right. Yeah, so there's that but what I'm saying is that leads you to asking these questions So just looking at history these right here Kakrebs are basically iron castanets that I'm holding But they come from Morocco now some Moroccan players have said that where this comes from Was from the shackles that were on the slaves And the rhythms that are played clack clack clack clack clack clack clack clack clack clack come from the shuffling of the feet The conga drop the conga back in the day bump bump bump bump bump bump bump Comes from the shuffling of the slaves together if you're walking in one trips That could be a problem. Oh boy. Wow. So we come up with ways to be together To survive now you move up to the bebop era Similar thing you move into jazz You move into the cre the creos And and and those that are not creos coming together and why they're coming together and why they're able to make these certain Sounds, right? Yeah when you look at the social aspect of it Then it's like all so now when I go to play It frees me up to bring in my personality Or now I have an understanding Oh, that there's angst in this music There is there is a certain emotional just outpouring From some kind of oppression or joy that's in this music So now i'm not just seeing it as the page it frees me up Right. Yeah, it's it's amazing to me how you can hear things Or see things really for so long and then you find out something like that and you go Oh, I'll never hear that the same again. I'll never hear no and then but but you've but you've heard it One way your whole life and then just hearing one little bit of information can change it Even like I I've found it and it's it's not even It relates to this but it's like if there's a band and the band is like, okay, they're pretty good But if your friend is in the band, they're great It just changes how you're how you hear things and perceive things appreciation. That's leading us to music appreciation When you have an appreciation for it, then it's like, oh, but you know it also It also leads us and we want to become good. Like I don't I'm a learning Listener. I've learned as I've gotten older because I'm some people call me a social butterfly. I'm I'm I'm very I'm an introverted extrovert. I don't fall in any lines. I don't fall in all the lines because it depends, you know Yeah, but but I love sharing But I I'm I'm very interested in people and so I want to learn As I get older How to be a better listener because even the way you ask a question and this gets we talk about ethnomusicology You have what's called ethnography and you have which is basically not just a methodology but Writing things down and and actually, you know graphing them, right? And then you have the methodology of how you get to the transcription of writing If you understand that a culture is maybe a shame Culture or not shame culture, but they come from the aspect of if if you ask a question I don't want to offend you So I might give you the answer. I think that you want you don't want to probe anymore So that means maybe I need to ask what I'm trying to learn about this music To say hey, do you think it would be a good idea if I played this over here? They might be yes. I that might be that might work not Instead saying hey, I found this drum. What do you think about this drum? Can you tell me about this drum? I need to find a way to frame that So that I get like being a good interviewer get myself out of the way and not infer information within my questions So as a percussionist I may say well, I don't care about ethnomusicology I don't want to learn how to play tablas or what have you I want to learn why they I just haven't been able to get To understand this there might be a bit of information that they don't even realize because it just comes natural But you have to ask the right way and then it leads you to that information. So there is um, You know, there's there's study and there's there's resources within this field like anything else That may open up and go oh, I would have never thought To ask that way and that would lead me to new information I I think it's it's interesting and people are by listening to this are doing the first step of of learning more I know I am I mean this really is like, you know I've I've had to get out of my comfort zone a lot in the podcast and I think for the most part people are very Eager and friendly and want to share the information and uh, don't mind if you ask a question that might not be They they know that you're learning. You're not going to know everything right off the bat so it's it's interesting just to kind of put yourself out there and um, you know Everyone has a first day of anything and a first time learning Something i'm sure your first time going to class and learning all this stuff Uh, it it also is just amazing how much information can be out there that we don't even have and I I mean it's It's mind-blowing how much can be out there about I think that's why a listers the higher you go It seems like the more humble they really are because they realize I don't know anything It's unbelievable. So on the list here, I'm just looking at different things that we can kind of uh talk about here. Um rudiments in various styles because rudiments when we think about that with drumming We think of obviously our our rudiments that we have our paradiddles and stuff like that. Right. How does that? Uh term apply to All these different cultures. Yeah. Yeah So you I'll I'll give you a couple examples, right? Um I'll give you a contemporary example Which still we may still relate to it when we talk about like swiss rudiments and you know modern stick stick control from modern drummer But let's talk about we talk about afro cuban music the timbales avaniquas rolls open rolls There are various rudiments that are used That have been used in top, you know 40 songs, you know charting songs over the years Um, and that have become tradition. They've become classic models within ensembles the latin ensemble, right? And so You know, it might be a five-stroke roll But it might be a five-stroke roll played within clave or it might be a five-stroke roll with a flam drag or something like that, right so But you might not play that rudiment In a certain part of the song Because that's not wait wait. That's not where we are Whereas, you know in in another genre. It's just like well, you just You just improvise. Okay, you can he plays it this way. I'm just doing like what stewart copeland did. I'm feeling it I'm just sure but in a certain context that not yet um There may be uh rudiments that call for Playing more notes That may be for a faster song that in another genre. That's a night song an evening song Or it may be a morning song Right, so the the amount of notes that you play or having to play at a certain speed May cause that whole genre and feeling to change and how we feel about that Uh, when you look at jenbei players and konga playing when I first started playing kongas One of the things that really drew me in other than just the tone of kongas Now those are my what I call my principal instrument is my love first love with instruments is One of the things that drew me in early on Was soloists. I think once you anytime you play an instrument once you get to a certain degree unless you're playing like your Your transcribe or not transcriber but interpreter, uh, you like in symphony Those of us at playing bands we we really love you get to a point where you hear people that can just solo and express themselves on the instrument Yeah, I wanted to be able to express myself on the instrument and what I found out early on Was a couple different aspects one was rhythm certain rhythms that that I was drawn to but two Was this rudimentary knowledge And there were certain common rudiments based off of the clave and rhythms that konga players were often playing Whether it was mano secreto mano secreta, which is just like, you know, that palm uh finger type of deal, uh Or whether it was Bringing in, you know, what the bell does Which really rudiment is like language. We talked about linguistics When we talk about speaking a language if I want to express myself The more if I want to read Let's say that I have to be able to understand syllables syllables make up a word I have to understand and be able to read that word I have to know a certain amount of words if I want to be able to read if I want to write and be an author I have to be able to know a certain amount of words to express these emotions Rudiments are like the syllables that make up the words which are like rhythms or sentences. Sure. So We talk about for instance in jembe playing. What is the I think the swiss triplet? Um Something like that you you'll hear uh variations of that a lot In west african jembe playing I didn't really think about a lot of these rudiments until later I had to teach them what I was playing and started realizing. Oh wait I'm doing that with my hands on this instrument. Now. I could play with my hands faster than I can with sticks in my hands I have some stick control, but there's certain things that I do when I hear a player and I'm like, oh that What what I can try to remember. What is this such and such, you know, maybe a paradiddle flag drill I just made that up, you know, but then it sounded real Yeah But then I play it and then I'm like wait Sounds familiar Then I go to the congas and I go, oh, I play a variation or an iteration of that. Sure So rudiments as a percussionist Sometimes are the fund fundamental base Of a of another world tradition percussion speaking. So do you think Kind of just like throwing an oddball question at you here Do you think there's a benefit at all to not having the ethnomusicology background where you have nothing You you have no frame of reference. You're creating things totally off of your you're not constrained by Uh the formality of nope. It has to be this it has to be this The the ability to make creative things off the top of your head without this this box that you're put in by knowing Sometimes you can know too much. Yes. What's your thoughts on that? My thoughts on that is that history has already proved that's true Right when we look at all of our our our elders now granite Like I said, I believe there's no necessarily like immaculate conception when it comes to music, right? Yeah So it came from somewhere but The people that were making it were often making things up and then it became a tradition Whether it's a thousand years old now, that's heritage. That is culture. We can't take that away We can we don't want to take that away from People groups at all because it is but maybe a thousand years ago There was a forgotten or maybe this rhythm is 400 years old But there are also forgotten rhythms. We talk about the rumba and various genres in cuba But there are many rhythms going back that are no longer played and even here in the united states There are rhythms that were once played that are not played you can go into the gulla and gucci Border islands. There's a there's a lot of stuff that was played that is no longer played So my point is yes, if you get a guy like wringo jimmy Hendricks bob marley They're free Yeah, yeah, there's freedom in it. There's totally free in the police I mean, would we really have a sky the way music in the in the rock world the way we have it If we didn't have young people that were free to to kind of build off of the past and and since we're talking about cuban music That's what the cubans have been doing and porto rican afro porto rican music been doing for years The music evolves and it has to evolve Which leads us to that age old debate of whether or not we just stick to tradition or we evolve But we need they both need each other to coexist. I do think that there's a freedom And and that that freedom leads you to the point Where now we can build some structure now At my core as a human and my my beliefs I believe we need some kind of structure and confinement because that gives us freedom But at the same time We need within those confines You know, hey little johnny. This is the gate. Don't go outside of that gate or you're gonna get hurt, right? Yeah But within that I have to be careful that I don't give him too much information about certain things So that he I can find out what is really needed to teach this child something a good percussion or drum teacher Will often use what I like to call the brucelly method, but it's been around since the beginning of mankind Each student's different. Sometimes you just at that first lesson first few you just have to evaluate That's sure and see what's going to work So when it comes to being a percussionist, I do think that you have a benefit sometimes not having that Me personally, I think I benefited From number one not being a professional musician at first. I did other work Not saying that I'm better than a musician that didn't do music at first. It just it benefited my path Right, so I don't get too caught up and I don't take myself too seriously with the music and out because I was a mechanic Before I was a musician So I also know hey at the end of the day bro. You're playing bongos, right? You're not working on the nuclear bomb Right. It doesn't mean it's less important though. It doesn't mean it's less important, but it gives me a frame of reference Right. So I do think that And and for me learning from the street first and then learning to read and write and becoming a technician I have seen where be getting too deep into the technical parts have hindered me I know what that feels like. Yeah, and then I have to go back to the experiment Because sometimes that's sometimes when we get into writer's block Really, that's all it is is we got too much into one frame of thought We got too much at like a technician I mean ignorance is bliss as they say where And sometimes these these like you hear a non-drummer play who will like open their hi-hat on a certain What they're playing the drums where it's like, I would never do that I would never do that like ever and you just did it without even thinking and it's Technically it's like a Jay Dilla, right producer. Yeah, exactly exactly Yes, where it's sliding and it's kind of off, but it's but it's right and it's good and you need people to like Make those mistakes that that uh that That are that are not mistakes. They end up being a cultural phenomenon Um On that note as we kind of get close to wrapping up here I want to ask you are there and you don't have to name names But are there certain like songs or styles or things that happen in your field with other professionals That drive people nuts where they like there's a certain song that has this style of whatever conga and it's like that doesn't belong there He's playing that wrong. She's playing like is there something where you guys have an example of like Oh, this this 90s kind of music use this kind of sound Yeah, and it drove everyone insane. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'll tell you one Uh, that is it's a funny one is the cowbell thing, right? I'm cool with it man It brought a lot of awareness to the cowbell but when will ferrell did the cowbell skip Which is one of the greatest skits of all time in my opinion. Yeah. Yeah At the same time, it's like I cannot pick up a cowbell without somebody saying Yeah, that's what we need more cowbell, but if you ever the cowbell is a very serious In fact, you don't have in west african music. You don't even have Certain genres without the bell pattern You know when you talk about a six eight That kind of rhythm might sound familiar people but that comes from a bell pattern too And some rhythms are going into bell patterns But so that's one thing that's a good one the the bell The cowbell is a serious instrument. Yeah, but but it's funny too. It is. I get it is But I've heard that those like will ferrell and christopher walken I've heard them say I think somewhere that that like ruined their lives like people just saying that to them so so but but again, it's like It's culturally it's made it more, you know, it's the cowbell, you know You but people do think that's a prime example too of thinking, you know, whatever. Oh, it's just a cow There's nothing to it. Right. There's nothing to it. But there's so much history to every You just got you can dig deeper and deeper and deeper into everything Everything everything I meet people. I have a few cahones back there and I meet people still to this day That didn't know and I don't I don't get people sometimes say, I'm sorry. Well, I'm like, look, I'm not going to get offended It is sure I didn't know a lot of stuff I don't know a lot of stuff so but there's still people to this day I think oh that was just a box drum that was created for churches to play acoustic music Yeah Not knowing when they find out this history. They're like, oh my goodness. Wow. I had no idea Um, so there are a lot of things that man, I get the list can go on I would say one one thing that um That I think ethnomusicology is beautiful for is building bridges. I think it is a diplomatic Uh a thing, uh, it can build bridges with people I can't tell you how many times because I I I'm a fan of the tone the iranian tombac You know the persian tombac or toblas and I tell someone and we get to talking I try to be careful. You got to be careful about this I don't want to just meet somebody from some part of the world and go Oh, I play such and such then it can get kind of weird, right? Yeah be that guy But as we get to talking I may bring that up and I can't tell you how many times that that glisten in the eye that just like Wait, you know about the tombac. How do you know about my music? And yes, now we have built a bridge because that person now feels seen You know, so I think there's a lot of uh built bridge building and diplomacy that can go along with that But uh, but yeah, yeah, I mean that goes back to the the the broad Music is a universal language statement of Yes, we all like it. It all it makes us all happy. It's a sign of oh, you you like my music Yes, thank you very much that that's that's universal But then again as you go deeper it gets more and more narrow But but I do think it's a way of culturally um of just showing respect and and just really like We most people in the world like music, you know what I mean? It is generally not everyone likes the same food Everyone likes a pleasing sound notes put together in a certain order usually Usually mean something similar to everyone, but even what you said earlier What's happy here might be sad there So you got right because we have the 12 note scale But it could be a turkish macam or it could be uh, uh, it could be a gamelan You know could be a different type of modal scale where half steps make it up. It could be an equidistant scale You know and even here in the United States When guys like Thessalonius monk were building these modes and borrowing notes from other places There were a lot of people that was like, what are you doing? You know, you can't do that's not right Yeah, I mean, I think the a lot of this is like if you feel passionate about what you're doing and and uh And you're doing something new you guess sometimes you have to be um, you just have to push forward. Yes, and You know, I think a lot of things Happen one way and that sometimes it needs the guy or girl to just be like well I'm gonna go this way and keep your head down and keep working and move forward And um, and and it usually it'll pay off, you know in the end to be Stubborn sometimes Yeah, well, this has been awesome, man I just love doing this these kind of episodes where it uh, you know Get a little out of my comfort zone learn about things that I didn't know about Learn about a literally a study Like a college degree that I wasn't really too familiar with But as we wrap up, is there anything that you want to plug? You can tell people where they can find you website all that good stuff Man, I really appreciate that Bart. First of all, thank you again for having me on I am on instagram William Johnson music. I'm on tiktok. Uh, that's a recent phenomenon for me William Johnson muse just don't finish the well like yeah, just don't finish music. So m us William Johnson m us Got it. Uh, and then there's uh, my website William Johnson music dot com And uh, youtube is probably the biggest thing that I do is it's like the center of what other than my website Which is also William Johnson music So, uh, if those of you that are not watching or seeing what I look like you'll you'll see a guy Most of the time I have a goatee. I'm probably wearing a hat That's playing congas or bongos because William Johnson is a very common name And there's a couple William Johnson's. I don't want you to think that I am No offense not slinging mud at anybody boy. Oh, no, no, no and I'll share those links in the description And um and like I went to your youtube page and very not that like You know, I love having all kinds of different people on here But you you got to vet a little bit and say like all right, you know It's it's easy to say you want to come on and talk for an hour about a topic But in like 30 seconds, I saw your your room what you were doing and I was like, yeah, okay. He's legit He knows what he's doing. So so it's awesome. But um, William has been kind enough He's going to stick around after we finish this and we're going to talk about an interesting topic about Uh drummers playing with other percussionists. I have been in two bands that have had uh percussionists which um, you know, it's it's definitely It's a thing Like stepping on toes. Are you going to play now? Am I going to play now? Um, you know, it's we're all in the same world We should be able to live together, but it's definitely got some interesting Uh relationship kind of stuff. We got to work together. Um, yeah So if you want to check those out go to drumhistorypodcast.com patreon link click it $2 a month and up and there's some new tiers on there that you can check out and hear awesome Stuff from people like William Johnson. So, um, William, my friend Thank you for taking the time to be here. Appreciate it. Awesome. Yeah, and uh, I'd love to have you back later Maybe, you know next year or something think of some other topics and you would I'd be happy to have you back I will be honored