 So, Fundraising Academy, we have been talking about cause selling education with Tony Bell, of course, and I really looking forward to today's episode. And of course, you know, thank you to all of our presenting sponsors. You also see Fundraising Academy right there, as well as Bloomerang, Abortable, Mission Met, Staffing Boutique, Nonprofit, HR, Moves Management, and Winspire. All of these amazing companies are here not only to support the non-profit show, but truly to support you and your mission-driven goals. So, please do check them out. They are in your corner and here to lift you up. Julia, we have had some great guests already and I am excited for today. And then even what we have coming on the rest of the week, we've got PetSmart charities coming up and they're going to talk about how do you talk to funders, you know, and really kind of illuminate that mystic being of funders. We also have someone coming on tomorrow, I believe, to talk about project feasibility. So, looking forward to that. But Julia, I'm thankful for you to have this crazy idea a year ago. Julia Patrick is the CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy and I'm Jarrett Ransom, CEO of the Raven Group, but also known as the non-profit nerd. You heard our amazing lineup, but today I am thrilled to have back with us Tony Bell, Senior Director, Office of Program Administration with the National University. Tony, welcome. Thank you so much. It's always a pleasure to be with both of you. I just always look forward to this day because I know we're going to have incredible conversation and you both just bring so much to the cost-selling philosophy during these webinars. So again, really honored and a pleasure to be here with you both. Well, it's really magical to have you with us because, you know, no matter how amazing your nonprofit is, and you can be doing the work of the angels, if you can't sell, and we don't like to use that word in our sector, it would seem like a bad word, but if you can't sell the concept, you can't move forward. And so when we first heard about you, we were like, this guy is a member of our tribe because you've got to be able to sell, you've got to be able to talk about these things. And so you have this really cool system called cost-selling. We joined Arms, we linked Arms with you several months ago. We're almost like halfway through. What's super cool about this is that if you jump in today or you jump in, you know, move forward, backward, you can pull across this process, I think, naturally. I want to remind everyone that Fundraising Academy has their own path on our Roku channel. You can find everything on our website, nonprofitshow.com, the americannonprofitacademy.com, Vimeo, and we have a lot of ways to get all of this knowledge put together. So having said that, today is really interesting because already, and Jared, even you can't believe this, we're in phase two, step five. Would you say we're like halfway through? I mean on the wheel, on the chart, we're halfway through. But do you think that that's, you know, a logical place to set us? Yeah, so sort of kind of, right? How's that for a great answer? So, you know, we're on step five of an eight-step process, but this is an ongoing process, right? I mean, it's not a process where, okay, I started one and I ended eight. Oh, I'm successful. Case closed, I'm moving on, right? I mean, it's an ever-evolving cycle. And it's about individual giving and that relationship with an individual donor. So you're often going through the cycle with the same donor. You may not start at steps one through three because you've done your prospecting, your pre-approach, your needs discovery, but you may often be starting at this particular step, step five, where you're presenting them new opportunities to invest in your organization, right? So, you know, that first initial gift, again, isn't the end of the relationship. It's really the start of the relationship. And then it's really based on that individual where you pick up the cycle again. You know, you're doing your stewardship after the gift and all of that, but when you're ready to make another ask, when you have another project that needs to be funded that aligns with this donor's passion, you're going to find yourself right back here at step five and getting yourself ready for that presentation. I love that you mentioned that because I was going to say as well, spoiler alert, it never stops, right? Like, part of it goes. And I wonder if that's, you know, part and parcel with the iconography of the phases. It's a wheel, right? It's a cycle. It continuously flows unlike a triangle or box or some other type of form that just kind of like clunks over. Right. So that's really interesting. And I love that. And I will witness to you, Tony, since doing the series with you, cost selling has really changed my own language and vocabulary on how I talk about fund development and overall resource development. I'm excited to hear that because we know, and it was funny, Julia, when you said, you know, kind of found your tribe, it was like, I found my peeps when I found cost selling, right? I mean, I didn't create this curriculum. I'm never going to, you know, act like I did. But when I was introduced to it and given the opportunity to represent it and facilitate it, I was like, yes, I have met my peeps who are delivering the message that I really believe in and cost selling. Like you said, selling is a little controversial in our space, but we're selling an ideal solution to a community need. So when you look at it that way, it's so much easier as fundraisers to embrace the philosophy of selling. I agree. So you talked to us about telling a story, being an advocate and building connection in this presentation piece. Yeah. And that's really what your presentation is doing. It's telling a story about the benefits of becoming a true advocate of your cause and then building on that connection that you've already established with your potential donor. Because again, very rarely, and I know it happens on occasion and when it does happen for you, that's amazing and, you know, A plus, right? But very rarely are you making an ask the first time you're engaging with a potential donor and you're having a conversation. So by the time you have reached step five, you have a really good sense of the individual that you're about to make the presentation to. I love that you said that. And I think that's really powerful because for me, when I hear you say that, it gives me a sense that this is more natural. It's not forced. It has a cadence that is, you know, I guess going back to that word, it's more natural. It's more relationship based. So as part of this, you have a really interesting thing to talk about and that is passion versus perfection. And what does that mean? Well, I mean, it basically means that perfection doesn't exist, right? I mean, so perfection just, it just doesn't exist. So when we talked about grace, earlier, that might have been my other conversation, right? Before this, we were talking about grace and give yourself grace in the space, right? So perfection just doesn't exist. You need to know your product, meaning your programs and the value and all of that. But donors are leaning into you as the individual, as the brand ambassador for your cause. And your passion about that is everything, right? So it's everything in terms of how you communicate with the donor, not only like this, you know, either face to face or via Zoom, but the words that you use in an email, how are you lifting their spirit in an email? How are you exciting them in all of the different exchanges that you're having? So that's really what the part of our curriculum that dives a little bit deeper around, you know, passion versus perfection. It really is about that and really, you know, again, not worrying so much about the perfection. You want to have your information correct and you want to be transparent, but remove the stress of perfection and really lean into your passion and why you do this work in the first place. Okay. So I want to warn everybody that when we talk with Tony, we tend to move beyond our really firm 30 minutes that we do. So make sure that you understand that we're going to move probably a little bit further into this conversation, you know, as much as 45 minutes. And a lot of this has to do with because when we get this man on camera, we have so many questions, we want to squeeze out of them. So one of my things is this, when you have passion and you're trying to communicate that or you exude that, I think it just happens if you're in a good fit with the organization. How hard is it if you're dealing with a tough topic to show that there can be joy, that there can be success, that things are tough, but there's a path. And I know this happens with like issues around child abuse, you know, diseases that are so far beyond being solved, domestic violence, things of poverty, hunger, world hunger. I mean, I could go on and on and on. So how do you, you know, do the rah-rah? Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And so passion doesn't always mean joy and doesn't always mean, you know, laughter. So passion can be empathy. So, you know, so leaning in maybe the convert, you know, so again, maybe the joy is when you're delivering the message about how you're solving the problem. But the problem itself may be horrific. So you, so you demonstrate your passion through the empathy in which you're delivering the information around this very emotional, you know, cause or circumstance, right? So passion doesn't always mean, you know, as much as I, you know, love the idea of being a cheerleader all the time, right? It doesn't necessarily mean that. Passion can also mean empathy and demonstrating empathy. Okay. I love that you said that too. And I've seen recently, Tony, that there's been quite a few articles or studies, if you will, talking about how we show up as that brand ambassador with our mindset, right? To truly make that presentation perhaps with passion now, going to use the fundraise and academy terminology, but really bringing in that passion to say, you donor, right, would be great at, you know, helping us with the solution and to really bring it in a manner, you know, bring it forth in a manner that really makes an invitation for that donor to be part of the solution. And really engage them in their passion because you've done the previous steps that the cause selling mythology talks about, you've done your due diligence to find out, is this mission alignment with that individual? This is what, this is what they are also passionate about. So that's what we're going to talk about, even if it is a horrific issue or challenge that we're faced. Absolutely. It's so, it's so interesting. Now, as part of this, and again, five, we're talking about presentation elements, you know, what are the essentials? You've got finances, depth, impact studies, but in the tucked in the middle there is legitimacy. I'm fascinated to know what these presentation elements actually mean. Yeah, so you're absolutely right around the essentials, right? So that's, you know, what is your mission statement? You know, what is the work being performed? What is the size of your organization? You know, are you local, regional, national, right? So those are just kind of the essentials around the organization. Finances, I think that speaks for itself, right? How well are you managing the investments that are being made to your cause? You know, I won't go down the administrative cost kind of lane versus, so that's a whole other conversation, right? But you're running a business. I say this all the time, right? 501c3 is a tax status, not a business model, right? But your finances, you know, need to be, need to be correct and they need to be transparent and they need to be delivered in a manner in which folks can understand them, right? So that there is comfort level in your fiduciary responsibility for the organization. The legitimacy is really about, you know, why is this, why is this worth someone's time? Why is this worth someone's investment? You know, you could also think of legitimacy as relevance. What is your relevance to the community, right? The depth is, you know, the type of work that's being done and then the impact are your end results. How many individuals are, you know, positively being affected by the work that you're doing? How well are you solving that community need? So those are just, you know, some of the key presentation elements, right? And building upon those. So starting with your essentials, your finances, the legitimacy or relevance, the depth in which you do the work and then ultimately what is the impact? I love it. I think that's brilliant. Tony, before we move to the next one, because I see Julia getting ready to go ahead, I've noticed during the, you know, the global virus pandemic in particular, because I say, you know, over the last 18 months we've had, we've been challenged with a lot of pandemics. But in particular, the global virus, we are looking at, and I have heard from many organizations that have said, we have actually touched and reached less individuals, right? And so they can no longer say, we've increased the amount of service that we've provided to individuals. So they've focused on the depth. Have you seen that recently when it comes to these key presentation elements is the number of people or, you know, whatever your client kind of is that you're tracking, that may have actually decreased, but the depth and breadth of your service to these individuals or to your community may have also increased. Can you talk to us about that? Yeah, I think that that's a really good point, because many organizations didn't have the luxury of shifting their model to some type of virtual delivery for their program, right? For whatever reason, it could be financial, it could be just that it doesn't make sense based on the need that they're fulfilling. So you're right. So it is that more conversation, that is a conversation about how they've gone deeper in terms of the work. And many have found that they've had to do some slight shifts, right? So the need that they had for the community that they were serving has changed slightly because of the global, you know, global pandemic or any other, you know, circumstance that might have hit their community. But I think it's that's a really good point that there are times in the life cycle of your non-profit where, you know, you're going deeper with your existing client base as opposed to looking to widen and serve more people. Yeah, thanks for speaking on that. I know it's a curve ball, but I knew you can catch it because that is something that I, yeah, good job. That is something that I have noticed is kind of trending by way of conversation. So I wanted to see how the fundraising academy would really address that. Thank you. Yeah, no, of course. And we're a good example. So within our suite of programs at National University System, we have harmony, social, emotional learning, inspire teaching and learning, and then fundraising academy calls selling education. And, you know, our goal is to get all three of these programs out across the country, right? And during the pandemic, we've done the same thing. We've looked at how can we go deeper with existing relationships? Our relationship is a prime example of that. How can we go deeper with existing relationships, as opposed to trying to get new ones in this very challenging time period? Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Of course. So now you have this really interesting part of this called the minutes of conviction. And I'm telling you, I have, I can't even imagine where you're going with this. So let's dig in and figure out how this fits in to our wheel of cause selling. Sure. So units of conviction are like little mini presentations about your organization. So the feature might be a product, a program. The bridge is the language that connects your feature with the benefit that your feature provides to the community. The evidence is the outcome, the result of the feature or the product. And the agreement is that point in the conversation or in your mini presentation where you look at the donor and say, how does that make you feel? Doesn't that make you feel amazing to know that you can be part of that solution that we just talked about? So let's look at it like I have a tech center. My nonprofit just opened a technology center and we're going to teach individuals coding because there aren't enough coders. I know in South Florida there aren't enough people for the tech. Yeah, coding. So our feature is that our nonprofit offers training, technical training through our tech center on coding. And what's really great about our tech center and our class on coding is that it's teaching individuals new skills that now makes them eligible for employment in a field that's vastly growing that they otherwise may not have had access to. And what's even more amazing about that is that 98% of our graduates are getting employed within the first 30 days of their graduation. Wow. Yeah. Love it. That's kind of it, the impact. I mean all of it. All of it, the evidence. And then again, you know, the agreement is how does it make you feel? How does it make you feel? Aren't you as excited as I am that this is the result that we're having with this program? So when I see this, it makes me think of a donor who might be more business oriented or corporate based because they want to see the process that, you know, they want to see it through. And this is just an observation versus somebody who might be more of like a compassionate donor. And again, these are my own words, but somebody who like tags into the emotion of something versus somebody who comes from more of a corporate mentality that they want to see this process and stewardship through to an end result. Yeah, I don't know. Well, I don't, I don't disagree with that, but I think that donors at all levels are more savvy than they ever have been. There's a lot more information at our fingertips, although statistics still show that most potential donors still rely on the fundraiser to educate them about their nonprofit. So a lot of donors, you know, are still again, really leaning into the transparency and the ethics of the fundraiser, you know, with their information. But because they're more savvy and want to be more connected, I believe than ever before, with the causes that they're supporting, this kind of reporting on ROI and ultimate results of the work being done by the nonprofit is important to me. I want to be a part of that success. And I don't have to be a CEO anymore to lean into that philosophy and to want to be a part of the success of the organization through my my investment. Yeah, I love that. I think it's so interesting, Tony, that you just made the correlation. And for me, it's like, well, of course, there is so much information out there for all of us to access, right? And again, speaking from a place of privilege that, you know, everyone kind of has technology. And that, you know, we have these kind of watchdog databases, if you will, so that we can see the financial transparency, we can even see their 990s, which is, you know, their financial reports. But we're also talking to generations in our society right now of people overwhelmed. And then perhaps we, as the investor or the supporter, right, are not spending enough, or even any time doing our due diligence. So we are leaning in and relying on that fundraising individual to really educate us on the mission. Is that what I'm understanding the correlation to be made? Yeah, absolutely. That is fascinating. It is fascinating because it gives you a lot more power and it also gives you more responsibility. That's right. I mean, a lot more responsibility. Now part of that is the presentation. And we were talking off camera, the main presentation styles, you know, memory work. Are you following an outline or are you just off the cuff? I mean, talk to us about that. Sure. Well, you know, and again, it depends on your individual style as a fundraiser and what works for you. So memorize is exactly that, right? You have memorized a script. A lot of emerging fundraisers, fundraisers new to the space may lean into this style of presentation, just because they're not at that place where they have true comfort in their knowledge. Tons of passion, but may not be totally comfortable with all of the information. So they may lean in more heavily to a memorized style of presentation. The thing to be really conscious of around a memorized style is not to sound robotic. So that, you know, again, you're doing this work because you're passionate about the cause, exactly. But you don't want to sound like a robot or extremely monotone because you're thinking so heavily about what is the next word, right? This is not my style memorized. I would totally be a robot. I'd be so concerned about missing a single word that you really would not get the true benefit of the passion that I have for the work that I do and for being in the space. Outlined is that it's weird you very much like, you know, the presentation today. So the outline is this deck, right? And so I know I see memorized, outlined and impromptu. It wasn't like, you know, a slide was put up that said presentation styles. And then I was like, oh, I have to remember the three presentation styles, right? So this is more of that, you know, that outline presentation where you have the prompts, you know your information, your content well enough to be able to fill in the blanks and to speak to the prompts that you're being given in the outline. I love, you know, that's, I love this style of presentation very much. And then there's the impromptu is really for those folks that are super comfortable in their own skin. They really know what they're talking about, right? The ins and outs of the organization, they've, you know, been around the block for a while, you know, like, but look, who's that? So, you know, so again, you know, the impromptu is someone that could sit like you could, you could call that individual 10 minutes before this show and say, we had a presenter that dropped out, we need someone right now. And that person could jump in and still 30 minutes and be super relevant and engaging and share nuggets that are going to, you know, fundamentally change the way that folks are, you know, raising money. So Tony bell, right? Well, not always. I do love an impromptu. So I hand me a mic and I'm ready to go. But but those are, you know, those are the three main styles that that we talk about, you know, in our curriculum, the memorized, the outlined, and the impromptu. I'm going to go so far to say, I think each each, all three of them have a place and a purpose, right? As you had, had mentioned, Tony, maybe someone's new in their career are new with the mission in which they're selling. And so, you know, it may take place in all three of those categories. I'm more of the outlined and the impromptu. And I think when we look at, I yeah, I think it's a combination. But I just want to say, you know, as development officers are in this fundraising space, and even all of us board volunteers, I should say board members, right, really looking at we're all advocates, we're all ambassadors for the mission. And there could be any time where someone says, tell me about your organization, right? And so at some point, it might be called the elevator pitch or speech, you know, like, be prepared for impromptu opportunities, because those will arise. And I think, you know, it's something that in the space, we all need to be comfortable at some point to have some kind of impromptu presentation. Yeah. And that's, and that's what those units of conviction are that that we talked about. It's those little mini presentations that you kind of put together. You know them well enough to where you could just pull one out at any given moment around anything that your organization is doing. I love that. I can even see this as an exercise. I'm going to throw out Toastmasters because they have those table topics like you can put these units of conviction in a fishbowl. And then you as a staff, and when you come to an opportunity to role play, you pick up this, you know, this page or paper and you're like, okay, this is what I'm speaking on two minutes. Go. Yeah, I love that because I agree with you. It's not, I think we're missing the boat if we're just thinking about sitting across the table from a donor with all these conversations we've had with Tony and Fundraising Academy. To me, and Tony, correct me if you think I'm wrong, but this is kind of like a way of life and that you become so enmeshed with these concepts that it becomes natural and it flows through. It's like Jared said, it's a wheel. It keeps going. It's not a box that falls over, you know, from side to side to side. So yeah. Now talk about presentation aids because I'm a big one on that. I mean, I think the visual nature of this, and you really break it down to quantitative versus qualitative. And so how does that look? How does that make us work through our conversations? Right, exactly. So we all know at this point and social media has certainly made this evident if it wasn't evident before that visuals are important, right? Visuals not only tell a story, but they, you know, they generate emotion. So when we talk about quantitative, you know, that's charts, you know, your bar graphs, infographics are super popular, right? And tell a really great story. So that's what your quantitative is. It's the data. And how are you telling the story of the data through charts or infographics? Then the qualitative is that piece that really does pull on the heartstrings in the more emotional part. So that's photos of the work being done, videos of the work being done by your organization, testimonials from the individuals or the families or the communities fitting from the great work that your organization is doing. And I wouldn't say that one is more important than the other. I really think it's a good, healthy mix of the two. But again, we're at step five. So by the time you've reached step five, you know, if this potential donor is going to be more excited, excited about a bar graph, or more excited about a 30 second video so that you can make those adjustments and really personalize the presentation to the individual that that you're going to be meeting with or having this conversation with. Okay. Go ahead. No, because I have a question. I'm next. Take a number. Elephant in the Rim question, right? When we have an opportunity to present to multiple people or, you know, a couple, and maybe, you know, one individual from the partnership thinks in a quantitative and the other one thinks in a qualitative. Or as I was saying in our Chitty chat chat session earlier, Tony, I have also presented to multi-generational individuals. So in this case, it was a foundation, a family foundation, and the ages range from seven to like seven D. So how do you address, you know, combining these two for the best presentation? So one thing that you can do is you can always provide infographics as part of a video. Right. So you can always do, you know, some type of quick video presentation, or you bring in a little bit of the, you know, the infographic or the bar graph or something, right? But because it's a video, it's more compelling to, you know, and this is totally generalization, right? But potentially more compelling to the younger donor that, you know, that this, they're watching this video, as opposed to you sharing something that's printed or, you know, sharing the infographic or the bar graph as part of a PowerPoint deck or something. So that would be one way that I would think about, you know, tackling that. But again, it's, it always needs to be a healthy mix in my opinion of both. Because again, you're, you're still looking, you know, this is an investment in your nonprofit corporation. So a lot of those, a lot of that information that you would find in bar graphs or infographics is going to be really important. Yeah, thank you for that. Sure. So one of the big things, and this kind of goes back to a question I asked earlier. And for those of you joining us today, if you're joining us live or you're joining us on one of our archived portals, we do take a little bit of extra time with Tony. And so normally the nonprofit show is a very rigid and strict 30 minutes. But with Tony, we like to move a little bit further with this down the road because we have so much to ask him. So one of my questions is for years and years and years, we believed that we could not elicit a quantitative or I should say qualitative response with our donors, unless we had really what we use the word compelling, but they were kind of really victim oriented imagery, right? And so we see this shift in marketing and relationships with our donors of moving more towards joy and outcome and human dignity and all that. Now, the one big thing that where we're seeing that today in the modern world is we're seeing that with animal rights issues where they continue to really lean in towards the more devastating imagery that's very unpleasant. And then we see things like the World Food Program or major human rights issues where they're trying to project images of joy with people that are in crisis. And I'm wondering how you see a blend of this because this is somewhat cultural. Yeah. My first thought is that and I leaned in when you first started this question or this comment, the first thing that I thought about were the two causes that you mentioned, right? And what I see on my team, you know, in Sarah McLoughlin's song, right? I did not identify them directly, but yeah, that's all. Sorry, but you know, and also one of my favorite musical artists, so it's okay. But that's, you know, that's mass, that's mass market fundraising. And that doesn't appeal to everyone. Okay. It really, really doesn't. I mean, I have plenty of friends, you know, my partner in life, those come on. It's, oh, please change the channel. Like I just, I can't watch it. So it definitely resonates with many folks. That's why they invest, you know, the amount of dollars that need to be invested in that type of mass market advertising. But it doesn't, what's that? An airtime. I feel like every time I click through, I'm like, there it is again. No, exactly. But it doesn't resonate with everyone. So it's really, you know, in my opinion, it's a very different form of fundraising than the type of one-on-one interaction that we talk about through call selling. You know, here, they clearly have a mission that's relevant, a cause that adds value. And they're casting a really wide net in the strategy that they're using in hopes of just, you know, gathering as many donors as possible. So not to, you know, go down that path too far, but would you put that more, that that's more of it like a manipulative one-time engagement versus building a stronger relationship with somebody? Or do you think ultimately, when you use those tools, you can create a deeper relationship? Do you have any thoughts on that? Yeah, no, I've always believed and I always feel like non-profits that do mass market events need to spend time data mining from those mass market events, right? So if I do a walk-a-thon, which is how I started my non-profit career doing large walk-a-thons, you have, you know, 2,000 people show up on a Sunday morning to walk. That's great. And you raise a million dollars that day. That is phenomenal, right? But now what are we going to do? So that's where once the events over, now you have to start data mining and looking at, you know, the individual participants, who raised the most money? Where did they raise the money? What corporations were involved in supporting their fundraising, right? And really start figuring out how to reach out to these folks that have participated in these mass market events. I would think some of the same exists for the examples that we were just talking about, the mass market kind of televised opportunities to be involved. But they've been really smart because they're looking for ongoing engagement, right? So for only $20 a month, right? So they're already sending that message that we want you involved in our organization for the long term. We're not asking you for $100 today. We're asking you for $20 a month for as long as you can do that. And the cost selling method, so looking at that circle, you know, you mentioned the data mining. So once we engage with those individuals and they enter our cycle, if you will, then it comes to us, you know, really with this, how are we prospecting, and I don't know, maybe looking at this, you know, because we want to do that research in a previous episode with you, Tony, you gave us all these great ways to really find out more about donors that are currently in our database. So if you missed that, go back and watch it because it is just chocked full with amazing insight and techniques on how to do very thorough data mining. And that's another great example of going deeper as opposed to going wider, right? As you already have all of this data. So let's dig into that data and, you know, where are your lapsed donors? You know, just there's just so much you can do with the data that you have, you know, as opposed to investing and trying to get new donors when we can focus on re-engaging existing contributors and investors. You know, I wish I could reference the statistic that I saw this, you know, and the quote, and if I can find it, I promise to share it, but basically, you know, what I read was your next big donor, your next major donor is already in your portfolio. You know, so that is why we really want to make sure that we continue to, and I don't want to speak too clear, but looking in the green section here, we're looking at stewardship. I know that's coming up next, but really looking at how might we further engage the individuals that are already engaged with us because that blank check donor could already be in your portfolio. Absolutely. Well, and before we let you go, I want to ask you this one last question. It's that time already? I know. It's hard to believe because I could spend like hours with you on this. This kind of makes me think, and maybe this is like an epiphany, because now we're, we've moved through, you know, we're into our second phase, we've moved through five steps. To Jared's point, maybe we should be looking at this wheel and going back to who's in our database and figuring out where we can plug them in, that we can use this more organically as we're moving through. Not everybody's going to need to start at one. If we know our donors or if we're going to, to your point, you know, go deeper with them, and do you think that's a fair approach or assessment? Yeah, without a doubt, because like I was saying earlier, when you, when you are first engaging with a new donor through this cycle, you get them through the cycle, they've made an investment, given a gift to your organization, we're celebrating that through our stewardship, right? Because we're going to be amazing stewards of this donor. They are going to know every waking moment that we, you know, appreciate them and that their contribution has made a difference. When it's time, and it's through that stewardship that we make sure we have multiple touch points with our existing donor, right? So that they, they're hearing from us more than when we're ready for another gift. Okay. But when we are ready for another gift, this is where we pick up again at step number five with that existing donor, because now we're ready to give another presentation around another opportunity for investment. So that's with an existing donor. Now, if we have a lapse donor, then that's where we could take our data and start somewhere else in the cycle, and it may even be at phase one. But it's with folks that we already have, you know, we already know something about, so we may move through one, two, and three a little more quickly because we have some history with them. But these steps are still very relevant as we look at data mining and re-engaging lapse donors. Great. Love it. This eight-step cause selling cycle has been mind blowing. And again, today with step five, presentation. So thank you, Toni. This has been wonderful. I'm right there with Julia. I could talk for hours about this. In fact, I think we should schedule a time to do just that. But go ahead, Julia, and take us out. You know, again, I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy, been joined today by Jared Ransom. And you can always tell that these are meaningful episodes when we're like, hmm, and I saw the two of us do, hmm. All three of us, we just leaned in. But tell me, Belle, you are an absolute gem. I just love your energy. I love what you have to say. Likewise. You fill me with a lot of confidence. When I see this and when I hear you, I'm like, oh my gosh, you know, that's where I've been successful. That's where I haven't been successful. This is what makes it more comfortable. And I think the magic of this concept is that it can be a natural organic process to the way, almost I hate to be like too preachy, but the way you can lead your life in that, you know, if you go to the dry cleaner, you can somehow begin to fit a relationship into this or, you know, start to witness about what you're doing and not just that, oh, it's two o'clock on Tuesday, I got to jump into the cycle. Now, it should be a natural way. I've got to step off the soapbox, obviously. No, but you said something really, really important, Julia, that makes me very proud of this curriculum is not only is it professional development, but it's meant to empower fundraisers. So, you know, our hope is that as you learn more about cause selling and you implement some of these strategies that through your success, you will feel more empowered. So I'm glad that you said that. Yeah, I'm like, I'm ready to go ask every time I have, we have you on. I'm like, literally, okay, I'm ready to go ask because it just gets me all super excited. Okay, well fundraising academy, remember, if you feel like you've missed something or you did, you can go back. We've assembled all the series all together on Roku and one path and we've done that in other places as well. So make sure that you, you know, if you miss something or you need to maybe fix a stumble or get some clarity on something, we have all these archives. So there's no need to forget that. Again, we want to thank our sponsors. We would not sponsor. Yeah, yay team on that. They are here supporting this mission day in and day out. And I'll share very briefly before we go, you know, Jared and I didn't think that we needed sponsors. This wasn't in our brain. Steven Shaddock from Lumerang came on and said, Hey, girls, you're going to sell sponsorship. So we were like, really? And, you know, so I mean, literally, that's how much these people support the concept of what we're doing. Wow, another great episode of the nonprofit show, Jared, I'm totally energized. So, so excited that we can have fundraising academy join us on this mission. Absolutely. Thank you so much and join us tomorrow. We have a project feasibility coming on and again, I mentioned pet smart charities, they're going to be talking about how to best talk to funders. So you won't want to miss that either. Yeah, we can't wait again. Thank you so much for being with us as we like to end every episode of the nonprofit show. We want to remind you to stay well. So you can do well. Thanks everybody. Thanks, Tony. Thank you. It was so great seeing you both.