 Hello and welcome to the Saturn room. My name is Patrick Massum and I would like to introduce Matias Kushner and his presentation entitled public money, public code, a campaign framework to promote software freedom. Matias is the president of the Free Software Foundation Europe or FSE. Since beginning with Guinea Linux in 1999, Matias has dedicated his work to free software advocacy and the need for technology to empower society, not restrict it. In his talk today, Matias will explain FSE's public money, public code campaign and share how you can use their framework and ideas to advocate for free software friendly policies where you live. We'll have questions at the end of the session. If you have a comment or question for Matias, please post it in the Saturn rooms IRC channel and I'll forward on to Matias at the end for discussion. So welcome Matias, and I will now hand it over to you. Hello. Thank you everyone. Thank you Patrick for the introduction. So, yes, I would like to talk with you today about the public money public code framework and how you can make use about that to promote software freedom. So, I mean, in school, we often learn some theories about how the political system works, that we have some branches in government, some checks and balances there we elect someone and then they are in charge of their area, or their institutions so in this case here you have a president and below that president there's an all the power of those nuclear missiles. While, when we think about how our societies influence more and more about technology. Is this still the right picture, how we learned it in school, or isn't it more like this. That those who control technology in the end control a lot of the things what can and what cannot be done in our society. So, I mean here with this audience I will not go into the details of why free software is important for our society I think that's, that's quite clear here for most of you attending and there are many other talks focusing on this. I will talk more about how we were doing this campaign and how you can make use about that, but to very quickly catch up there. So, our goal was for a very long time I mean fsfe was founded in 2001 as in the sister organization of the fsf. And our goal was always to make sure that every individuals, every companies but for this case here also every government or public administration can use the software for any purpose can study how it works. Can share it with others and then improve it as well or ask others to improve it. We've been doing that for many, many years and helping governments to use more free software to share it to reuse it. But yeah we were getting to the point where we thought, how can we boost this how can we go faster and make sure that more public administrations make use about free software benefit from free software and in the end, many others in our society and we ourselves have some changes. So, what we did was that we wanted to create a framework so that more people around the world can use this to advertise and promote software freedom. So, the things I will now explain you. Those are the tools which we are providing, and which several volunteers staffers worked on to make sure that you have some tools available to to promote free software towards public administrations. Those are just some tools which are there. They are there for you to modify them to adopt them to adapt them for your own needs and find your own hack how you can advertise free software and how you can make sure that public administrations around yourself in the area which interests you that they make more use about free software. So, how did all that start. We had a campaign workshop when we came to the conclusion that we wanted to to work on this topic. We did that together with some experts on running campaigns and brought together lots of volunteers from all around Europe together in one place and we spend one weekend together and thought about how do we do this. What tools do we need. What timeline would we have to stick to. How should we call all of that and we were thinking about all those aspects there. That was a pretty intense weekend and but in the end we were quite happy with the with the outcome of it. As you can see here there are also some some ideas at the beginning about the tagline or the name for the campaign which in hindsight I'm pretty happy that we didn't do it like that and I think it was way more successful with what we went afterwards with public money public code and some of the others other ideas here. But yeah, that's how it all started with several volunteers and staffers in one big room and then we spent the weekend together there. So yes. What did we do first. We set up a website. And this website is public code dot you where we described the advantages of free software for public administration. Why is that important. We then also afterwards translated that in several languages. Meanwhile, it is translated in over 20 in 20 languages there. So we will see that on the website there if one of the languages is missing there which you care about. Please get in touch with us and help us to translate it into your native language so we can reach more people there. So first thing we wanted to have a website we can refer people to and more people will see what is going on there for this for this topic. Then we wrote an open letter. In this open letter we demanded that publicly finance software should be published under free software license. So that all software which is finance through public money should afterwards be public code. We asked lots of people to sign this. So, meanwhile, it is signed by over 30,000 individuals and over 200 organizations who also support this general goal that there should be more free software in public administrations. So here's just a small selection of some of the organizations which are supporting this. I hope that after this talk if you haven't signed it yet that you will on the organization you care about your involved and might also do. We accept this either by the contact details on the website or I mean one of the night things there was also for us when we received signatures and pull requests like in this case here. So, yeah, feel free to choose a way what that works for you. We are happy if there are more organizations who stand up for this claim that we can show how large this this group of organization and individuals is who are supporting this. The next thing that we already at the beginning of the campaign week and thought about is that we need a short video explaining this topic because most people will not have the time to read along a website. And especially politicians will not have a lot of time to read through long documents there. We need to have something short. We need to create a video for that. And that was actually one of the most difficult parts I would say of the of the campaign as well, because in this process, it was a long back and forth about a smaller team from FSE volunteers and staff and the video producer. And yeah, it's, it was always difficult to make it simpler, make it simpler. Can you say it like this? That might be a bit too, too simple and not covering how the reality actually is. And so we had long, long discussions there. But in the end, yeah, we came up with this with this video. Yeah, maybe Michael, can you can you now play it. Imagine for a moment, our government would treat our public infrastructure like our streets and public buildings the same way it treats our digital infrastructure. Our members of parliament would work in a rented space where they weren't allowed to vote in favor of stricter environmental laws because the owner, a multinational corporation, didn't allow that kind of voting in its buildings. Nor will it allow a long overdue upgrade to more than 500 seats. This means some members of parliament have to stay outside in the street. And a couple of blocks away, a brand new gym is already being torn down just six months after it was built. It's being replaced with an exact replica at great expense. And the only difference, the new manufacturer also provides streetball as an added feature. Meanwhile, every night through a hidden backdoor in the city hall, documents that contain sensitive information on citizens from bank data to health care records are being stolen. But no one is allowed to do anything about it because searching for backdoors and locking them would infringe the signed user agreement. And as absurd as this sounds, when it comes to our digital infrastructure, things like the software and programs that our governments are using every day, this comparison is pretty accurate. Because mostly, our administrations procure proprietary software. This means a lot of money goes into licenses that last for a limited amount of time and restrict our rights. We aren't allowed to use our infrastructure in a reasonable way. And because the source code of proprietary software is usually a business secret, finding security holes or deliberately installed backdoors is extremely difficult and even illegal. But our public administrations can do better if all publicly financed software were to be free and open source. We could use and share our infrastructure for anything and for as long as we wanted. We could upgrade it, repair it and remodel it in any way to fit our needs. And because the open source in free software means that the blueprint is openly readable for everyone, this makes it much easier to find and close security holes. And if something practical and reliable was created digitally, not only can you reuse the blueprint all over your country, the actual thing itself can be deployed anywhere, even internationally. A great example of this is Fix My Street. Originally developed in Great Britain as a free software app to report, view and discuss local problems like potholes, it's now being used all over the world. Everyone benefits because new features and improvements are shared by everyone. If all our software were developed like this, we could stop struggling with restrictive licenses and could start thinking about where and how software could help us. We could concentrate on creating a better society for everyone. So if you think that tomorrow's infrastructure should be in our own hands, help us now by sharing this video and visiting our website, publiccode.eu. It's time to make our demand. Public money, public code. So yes, that was the video which we came up with and that video is now not just available in English, but thanks to our Dutch team. It's also our team in the Netherlands. It's also available in Dutch now. And we also have one translation in French, which was provided by April. Thanks a lot for that again. Then it's available in German, in Italian, Portuguese, Russian, Spanish, and since a few days also in Swedish, provided by another organization who wants to run a campaign there for public money, public code. Those are the languages which are available at the moment. If you're interested in helping with any videos in other languages, please let us know. Especially if you want to run a campaign in your country or in your area where this might be helpful, please get in touch with us. And maybe we can help there that we get this also done in your native language so you can convince more people there with this short video in case you like it. So, yes, then. Inside this video, what we also wanted to have is some good pictures. So whenever the media reports about it, you have some good pictures you can provide to them. So, some activists in different cities, they use so called global growth chapters, which, which use light to display slogans and things on public buildings. And all this, like in this case, it's the around the German parliament, where they also displayed messages there about public money, public code. So that's one one component there where we wanted to make sure that we always have good pictures there, which can be used for this, which by the way is also quite a lot of fun from what I heard from the people involved there. So yes, that's this part. Then we encourage people to directly reach out to politicians with our message and the videos. This now in German, I will quickly translate that to you so many people, they reached out to politicians in elections. And that's now one of the replies my mother got when she was contacting, contacting candidates for the German federal government. And what he what he replied there after she contact him was, I think it's really astonishing what your son and the FSFE accomplished after the election I would like to get in contact with them and see how to what what we can do about this. We politicians are depending on such external input and expertise there. So that was very nice there it's also afterwards that person was a minister in the hierarchy directly below the minister of a federal ministry. So that's of course something which is very helpful there. If those messages are not just coming from an organization which has free software in their name. But is also coming from citizen from people who elect the politicians. And so they don't hear just from one person or one organization but from many, many, many people out there. Yeah, that's why we are also encouraging people, all of you and ask you to encourage others use this material to directly talk to a politician about that right them an email about that, go to their, to their open meetings, call them about this, send them the video and use the other materials which are available there. So, yes, that's one thing which we made pretty good. Pretty good experience with when more people are doing that that that can have an effect there. Another thing we did is I mean we just didn't wait or let all the other people do that to contact politicians about that. We also, we also did that like at one I love free software day which is always the 14th of February. We prepared letters for the German government in this case, and explained why free software is important, what important work free software developers and contributors are doing for our society, and explain them also about public money public code. And what we did was then we put that in envelope, put rose put roses there as well and every, every politician in the, in the parliament then got one of those letters on the 14th of February. Besides that, after a while what we also did was that beside the website and video and the, the some materials which we had available like stickers and other things. We also created a brochure. There in case you contact politicians about it or other political decision makers, and they have further questions they say yeah that sounds good but I want to learn more about that. So we created this brochure public money public code. So in this brochure, which you will find on our website as a download or which you can also order from the FSSE website. It's covering all kind of topics like general explanation about what free software is why it is important. Why free software isn't less secure than proprietary software, the advantages of sharing and reusing software for public administrations, some examples which already used in different public administrations around the world, and so on. So, have a look at the brochure see how you can use that printed yourself order it printed from us. It's at the moment available in in English. It was then in a cooperation with part of the German government translated into German. It was translated in check and in Brazilian Portuguese. So, if you're interested, it's a lot of work to translate this one, but if you're interested, get in touch with us and then we can also work to make this brochure available in other languages as well. So, yes, as I said, that's then the part, which is, they got interested after an email looking at the website, watching the video, you can provide this, or, for example, when you also you go to one of their meetings. And hopefully the pandemic allows that at a time issue here again. Go there, take this brochure review, give it to them as a reminder. That's something which is in quite a good tool then to to use as an extent. And yeah, that's for the contacting politicians yourself part. We also now provide workshops. So, when you have a group, and you want to reach out to politicians in your area, like in your country or in your region, when you are dedicated to that and want to do that. We also provide workshops and explain you what what experiences we made what work in one cases what didn't work in other cases. So you don't have to start from scratch but can learn from the experience, many volunteer groups and staffers from the FSB made already about that. And when I talk about contacting public administrations there, I'm not talking just about like political decision makers government, but I'm also talking about universities, which are financed with public money or libraries or any other institutions which are out there and where you think that you can make a change there that you can request that the public the finance software they produce is then afterwards also shared again under free software license. So, I just want to give one quick example of one of the groups, which was quite amazing what they accomplished here. So that's the some members of the Pica Pica hack lab and our stories. And what they did was they used our materials and contacted politicians in Australia's and they, they really started with writing emails about it sending the video. They, they then got in contact with them by phone. They reached out to made appointments and had face to face meetings with them. And for those who didn't get back to them by email they knocked on the door of each one of those politicians in the different parties and talk with them about this issue. And in the end, what they accomplished was that the Astoria's parliament signed the open letter from public money public code website and said that from there on they would like to publish publicly financed software under free software license. So really amazing what a few people who are dedicated there can do. I mean, it's wasn't a short term activity. It was over several months over a year. But yeah, really, really amazing to see how a small group of six, seven people can have such an impact there. On some other levels we also seen quite some progress there. For example, the largest European Conservative Party, the German CDU, which is also the party from the from this politician who reply to this email by my mother. They also then made made a decision in their party. I'll show it to you. So this is why the following will apply to all public digitization projects in Germany in the future. The awarding of contracts and funding will be subject to compliance with the principles of open source and open standards, software finance by public funds should serve all citizens. In addition, free and open APIs should facilitate access for independent developments. And that's from from a party which for many years was more blocking progress there and steps towards more free software. So that was really amazing to see how when this decision was made in at the end of 2019. And from there on how politicians when they actually then understood what what software is about and there are some who want to make some progress there, how fast things can then start to go on. So, yes, what we afterwards also saw was that that is also during the last month's impacted the some of the tools tackling the pandemic. Especially with the corona warning apps. In Europe we saw that in the discussions free software was the gold standard for for this. So, there was a large demand that those tools should be free software so that citizen can trust what those tools are doing what those applications are doing on their phones. So, that was a huge success there from our perspective that those apps were then published on the free software license. And several months ago, it was actually even possible since a few months now it's now also possible to run this corona tracing app install it from asteroid where it was added there. We removed some dependencies there. And with the with some updates in microchee you can now run the German corona warning app with completely free software there so you don't need any of the proprietary components anymore. Furthermore, also quite nice was that the the iOS app about that that's also using the episode ease reuse guidelines for showing the license information. So maybe some of you have heard the talk from the one talk before by Max meal about our reuse tool. So on the reuse that software you can read more about that if you have missed that talk. So, yeah, and what's what's what's really great there was to see how the discussions in the last months were quite different from how they have been before. So, when there is a discussion about a new app being introduced before we as the fsve were able to say but that should be free software. There are so many others who already mentioned that and talked about that and there are discussions in public television and in newspapers and so on in places where we haven't seen that before that people are discussing why those tools should be free software. And so that was a huge step also there for for public money public code to see that and have this discussion out there so people see why free software is important and also transfer that to other areas than just corona warning apps or in general software to tackle the pandemic. Yes. So, before we go into the discussion. So changing behavior of public administrations is a lot of work, and it takes a very, very long time. So I mean in at the fsve very involved in this work since 2001 so 20 years now this year, we talk with politicians all the time explain them the advantages of free software. At the beginning they looked at us and thought like, what do they want to talk about it with my assistant men. After a while they look more into this and we now made some progress after we made some progress there are some decisions which bring you back two steps again and then you have to go on and on again and it often feels like you are walking up a high mountain. And there is almost no progress there but I mean when you then look back 20 years to see that you actually accomplished quite a lot there and changing the how politicians political decision maker think about free software. So, while it's, while it's very difficult to do all of that it's of course way more fun and way more motivating if you are not alone on this path. Of course, yeah if you, if you know that you want to make an impact there and you, you have to walk this path for another five 1020 years. You have to work together to do that together in a group together in a larger movement with people who are supporting that. So that's why I would like to encourage all of you to help with that to to join this efforts there for my free software in public administrations. And yes, I just wanted to finish before the discussion with a short quote, one of my first teacher wrote down for me once. It's many small people in many small places to many small things that can alter the face of the world. So, it's really not about one person who has to do all the work on herself. It's about all the different people, all of you, all your friends, all your colleagues, your relatives who do one small thing to go further towards the goal of having software freedom as the default out there. So, I hope that many of you will join this will continue to to be active in the software freedom movement so that we can change the society for better. Thank you very much for listening. I am looking very much forward to discuss the questions with you. One last thing. I would like to thank very much all the supporters of the FSF for their financial support for the FSF and of course all the volunteers who are contributing many, many hours a year for all the work of the FSF without them. Thank you very much for the opportunity where we are now and we wouldn't have accomplished all the things I now just mentioned for public money, public code. So thanks. Thank you very much for this. Thanks, Matthias. We do have some questions here from the chat there. I'll let you know there was an active discussion going on amongst the IRC participants. Okay, back and forth as you're going. Yes, we're first. Is there a platform or web form similar to Fragdense. Excuse my German or Dutch or whatever that. Yeah, and I'm getting more notices here. Is there a web form similar to that to ask the state to support this campaign. On public code dot you, you will find an open letter which you can sign and we are using this, this, this list of signatures, when we are reaching out to politicians for elections again, for example, like this year there will be an upcoming one in Germany again where we will also show them again like see how many people are supporting that from this country in other regions with it the same. It's not like the Fragdense start, which means like ask your government platform, which is a freedom of information request platform. But I mean what what we are doing there is that we have also worked with with the people from Fragdense start to request documents there, which we need to be in Germany then to, to, yeah, better inform politicians about free software so a lot of things they're often not available a lot of information on not available. So we have requested several documents already through this platform, so we can better understand how much money do government does the government at the moment spend on software, how much of that is proprietary how much of that is free how much do certain services platforms, new development costs, who was involved in setting them up. How was all of that handled so yes with platforms like this you can, you can get a lot of insight to better than argue for software freedom in the government. It's in, you don't have that for all countries, you also don't have that on all government levels in Germany, for example, then in this case, but such platforms are very helpful to for as another tool to accomplish this goal of the campaign. That that actually ties into the next question maybe actually covered a little bit. The question was how easy would it be for other countries to copy and paste the public money public code campaign is much of the documentation specific to the EU. We don't, we think it's very, it's very easy to reuse that in other areas and we have also seen that that there were, there are people who reuse the materials in Asia, there were people who reused it in Latin America. There were people who reached out to us from from African countries. So it, it's, it's from all around the world where people were reusing this already. So it's really not specific to the EU from the, from the arguments there I think it's also from the, from the phrasing. You can slightly modify that in case you see that it has to be modified. But in general, I think for if you want to run that in your in your country. One of the easiest thing is translate the website into your into the language or languages of the the country you you want to to target and then see if we maybe you could have a translation for your, for your language for the video and the other step might then be to maybe find a way to translate the brochure. But then I think, yeah, maybe the brochure is a bit more specific to the EU, but because several of the examples there are about the EU. But yeah, you can you can also modify that then and have that slightly different there. I mean, in general, it's, as I said, those are the tools which we provide. And as with software it doesn't fit everybody's needs, but as with free software you are free to modify them and end up them to your own needs. So that's that's what we we want to encourage you use the tools, see what is useful there, see how that's going. Every country, they, there are some specific cultural context, there are some specifics and how the, how politicians there might approach things how you have to approach it to to influence the political decision makers. But in general, I think the overall framework is, it's very easy to to modify and reuse it somewhere else. At least that's what we have been told. So, okay. And there seems to be a nice thread evolving here. Would you encourage the next question was would you encourage people outside of Europe to start a similar initiative, or would you encourage them to join the current one. I mean, it's how do you join the initiative. It's in the end, I mean, I think, I mean, if you want to run that yourself somewhere else, you can do that. In the end, I think you might benefit from, as I said, just adding your language there on the website. Maybe we could think about registering another domain which are forward there to this specific language because dot you might not be the right URL for what you want to achieve then there. But beside that, I mean, you don't have to care about maintenance of the website you don't have to care about a lot of things and can invest that time and energy then in the other steps which are then not a one centralized initiative where it's about you, your group, your friends contacting politicians writing them letters, going to their meetings, giving them phone calls, encouraging others to do the same. So this is very decentralized and I think the only way how how this will work is also to be decentralized. So there it's, it's not like one general mailing list you join. If you want to do this somewhere it's, I mean, as I as I showed with with pica pica they, they reused the available materials and in Australia's. So, and that's the same like others are now doing like the Swedish organization which was contacting us about the about the Swedish translation of the video just a few weeks ago, they are now running a campaign there. And there are others who are reusing that in to promote free software in in Brazil that's why we have a Portuguese translation. So, yeah, that's it's in the end. I think I think it's often too specific to the countries to have overall worldwide discussions how to approach it there. I think what's useful is if we exchange knowledge, knowledge of what worked in one area and what didn't work, and see that we don't replicate it. But in the end, then focus with your in your area with the knowledge you have about this and you don't have to explain others first how, how do things work there. So, I would encourage you to, yeah, reuse the materials and do that thing and in your area region country city. University school. Okay. Next question was, what were some of the objections that we elected politicians gave you had it's in it's often the general arguments which you might be familiar with like, but if everybody can see the code that software cannot be secure. So, yeah, that's one of the things which we also then countered in the in the brochure. Another one is, but how will people make money if you if they give away the software for free, which we also then explained in the in the brochure that free software it's about freedom. It's not about the price and we actually want to encourage many many companies to offer free software solution to governments and that governments and public administration that they make sure that when they procure free software that it's under free software license and that they they get that from different companies and to provide us for this. So, and, and thereby I mean also explain them that free software actually means more competition because you don't have such a solution. And even after you procure the software and you're running the services, you still can continue to use the same software but can choose another service provider for that same solution. So, those are two things like how does how can people still make money and the security part. And then of course other objects and objections were also about. Yeah, but that's so difficult, which, of course, I mean, in a lot of situations, it's, it's really hard to make such a change, because public administrations for many many years, they were driving into one way street and now they realize that that's not a good situation where they are and that they actually cannot take their own decisions anymore, but that some companies have a large influence on what governments can and what they cannot do and thereby what societies can and cannot do. So, of course, that's a lot of effort, changing this what they all those mistakes being made many years ago so that's why then I mean our, our reply there is then also I mean we don't think that you can do that from one day to another but if you don't start, we will never have any change at all so you have to start to start to start at the next project you will run well require the the the company who is which is doing that for you that it's published under free software license so you can then you're not so dependent on this and you can also share the with other public administrations. So, yeah, that those were the main objections. I remember there were some more which we also tackled in the in the in the brochure, but I mean in general, the reply, the usual reply is when political decision makers see the video. Oh, that makes a lot of sense. Why do we do this different actually, especially from people are not so into this topic I have to talk with the experts in our party why, why aren't we doing this. So, it's, it's pretty, I think, pretty clear for most of them and when they understand this as the video CD arguments that this makes sense this makes sense from a, from a sovereignty point of view for the administration it makes sense from a money point of making the best use of taxpayers money. It makes use. It makes best sense on how to collaborate between public administrations I mean we've seen that in the last month during the pandemic that it's, it's a large advantage if a lot of public administrations have the ability to talk with each other exchange data with each other. So, I would say that the general feedback was not so much objections but more like but how do we do that. Plus some misunderstandings I mentioned yes. Okay, just had another question come in here. Have you found that English being the lingua franca computing a huge barrier to your advocacy work in non English speaking EU countries. So, is it is it man that that the software and documentation of software is in English. The question specifically about the advocacy work. So, I think that might be the I mean, in, of course, I mean it's it's a challenge if you want to to make progress in many different countries and they all speak different languages and not just one country one language but sometimes one country several languages. That means that we have to translate all the materials or volunteers have to translate that. That's of course is an issue. I mean with English you can reach a lot of them still. But yeah, it's, it's of course a challenge if you if you have to translate materials into into other languages and maybe about I mean just if the question is meant about that with the with the software code itself. I have the feeling that's not so much of an issue but one one issue we have seen was that we have free software licenses. It's sometimes an issue for some political decision makers that documents are then in English, and they would prefer to have that in in their own languages. So that's why also in some cases public administrations then choose the upl which has several translation into European languages. So that for example, French public administration can use a license which is also available in French and it's not just an official translation but it's an official translation and thereby the binding license there. So that's one of the issues we have seen with regard to languages. And have a minute left, but we just got another question so I want to include it in the questioner says in Italy there's a provision, which they believe is an EU directive that mandates justification with it or documentation of when choosing a non free option. This is a free software. This is usually done by comparing total cost of ownership and commercial solutions come out as winners because maintenance is an obscure point of cost. Is there some way to work around this tactic. Yeah, it's difficult. I mean in Italy there's also this. I mean when you want to choose a new software that you first have to look if another public administration is already having such a solution so you have to reuse that, or if there's a free software solution you should use this and just if you can show that this is not the case you should be allowed to use proprietary software. There's a theory in practice a lot of public administration often work around such rules. So that's one challenge there that I mean when you have law, the policy process it's often like there, there might be a law in one place but then the more difficult thing is actually the implementation of the law. Specifically, it's really difficult of course to compete with large proprietary companies who already have a software which was developed for many, many years. They invested many hours in this. And so they can offer that at a price which you might not be able to to offer when you are a company which was developing that for a shorter time under free software license. And so I think I mean there are some this some arguments there that you shouldn't just have a look at the at the costs at the moment but that you should also consider long term costs and the cost of for example when you have a solution at the moment how much would it cost if you have to change to another one again so the exit costs of that software solution. The other argument is of course that the benefits which free software provides to to a to a public administration are not just money saving. It's about other things as well and one one argument which is at the moment getting more and more power in in the you at least is the topic of digital sovereignty. That in some cases you might have to invest more money to be able to control the software yourself so you don't depend on one company, even if they provide the solution cheaper than another one. So you don't depend on them. If you want to make changes policy changes. Think about the comic from the from the beginning of the presentation, you should be in control of of what government can do. If, if you will, if you vote on something and you take a decision you should be able to to go there to do implement this decision and not let the other company of the proprietary software. So, going back from the money aspect is always a good thing to promote free software. All right, great. We're actually over two minutes. So, lots of interest, and I want to thank you again with this, and thank you, and the FSFB for all the good work with the campaign here and best of luck. Thanks so much. Thank you very much. Thank you, Patrick for doing the moderation. Thank you all for listening and thanks a lot to the FSF team to provide all the infrastructure and making sure this all runs. Thank you very much.