 OK, so welcome to this afternoon's session. I'm delighted to welcome back Nicky Alford from the University of Central Lancashire. Nicky's going to be talking on a topic that was one of the first topics we decided to include in this book project, looking at migration and indigenous peoples in Taiwan. One of the reasons we were particularly delighted that Nicky agreed to join this project was that he's worked on, this is his third shunni indigenous project that has been involved. He was the one that really enabled us to kind of stop doing this kind of work on Taiwan's indigenous peoples. Nicky did his master in Taiwan studies at National University in Taiwan, and during that time he published his first book on the British tea merchant, John Dock. And that was one of the reasons why when he first came to SoA for his job interview, it was probably one of the best job interviews I've ever experienced. And I would say that he was part of the real transformation of Taiwan studies at SoA, that started when Nicky arrived and then really took off even more when BU joined, so we were amazing at Team Just Three. Unfortunately, Nicky left SoA, and first he went to Prague for his postdoc, and during his postdoc he finished work on his third book, or fourth book. I never, it really depends on definitions here. And then he moved on to University of Central Latinxia. So he's transferred Taiwan studies at SoA, and then he's moved on to have a transformative effect on the University of Central Latinxia in Preston. And he's only been there for two and a half years, and already he's a reader at that university, which means he's kind of on the edge of being a professor, which is quite remarkably in just a couple of years. Not only is he publishing widely, but he's also become an academic administrator. So I think maybe I've had a little bit of influence on Nicky. I mean, we're both pretty optimistic, positive people. In a kind of an academic world where it's very difficult to be positive and optimistic. So one of the things I love about being with Nicky is that he's someone who can change the climate. That's what he's been doing at, I would say, like the way we developed our studies in southern England. He's tried to do something similar in the north. So just a few weeks ago, we were in Preston for the launch of the Northern Taiwan Institute, which I think is a really remarkable experience, a remarkable achievement. And I'm delighted to welcome him back to SoA. So let's give him a big SoA's welcome poll. And thank you, Daphid, for such kind introduction. So I would say Daphid has always played a very important, large role in both my academic development, but also generally growing up as well. I just kind of maybe just begin by adding to this story. So my choice is when I was trying to make as a master degree student at Jundal was to where do I go next. And when the opportunity to work alongside Daphid came up as a possibility, I jumped at that chance to do so. Daphid became very familiar with me and his work as an M.H. student in Taiwan Studies. Anyway, so that was a very, very big moment for me to be able to then have that opportunity to work alongside Daphid himself. My actual first kind of project I worked with Shani was actually before I came here. And that was on a book called Taiwan Post Martial Law. And I was really in the kind of preparations for that book that I became much more, I became much closer to a much wider extended community of Taiwan Studies scholars and them through my participation and being a member of the Board for the European Association of Taiwan Studies. That closeness came. This year, unfortunately, I had to sit down as being a board member. We have a term limit of six years, so I've done my service for European Taiwan Studies and retired. But I still have plenty to give. But I was very pleased with all these opportunities. I want to kind of talk about a topic that I've been quite passionate about. It's a topic that is playing a role in the way in which that I think about Taiwan. And it's also playing a role in the way in which that I want to move Taiwan Studies, particularly our university. Now, the University of Central Lancashire has a BA program in Asia Pacific Studies, and we have a very good graduate who's come down to kind of the summer school now, so Grace, give it a wave. Grace was a co-student. And the Asia Pacific Studies program is a language-based area study program. The roots into this are through Chinese language, signifying languages, Korean, and Japanese. So Korean is our largest group. But our program is Asia Pacific Studies as opposed to East Asian Studies, which does kind of many ways set it apart from similar programs elsewhere. And a key kind of part of me now as I lead the program is to really cement that Pacific element within that program to move it away from the narratives of East Asian Studies, which has very strong colonial undertones to it, something that really stem from Japanese expansionism, right? To kind of then look at situating these languages and the understanding of its peoples and its cultures into a much wider Pacific area, which in some ways also has certain colonial undertones, particularly with regards to United States. I'm going to say, unless you want me to finish in 10 minutes, there's boneness. But anyhow, so this is kind of a talk, and I want to kind of pay a bit of gratitude here to a particular professor who many ways are similar to Daffy the way in which that took me under their wings and is out to guide me. And that is Professor David Brundell at National Agenda University, who really opened the doors and opened my eyes in the way in which that we can look at migration out of Taiwan. So this is really through lengthy discussions that I had with him throughout both my time as an MA student and through my PhD research and then into kind of who I am today. So I kind of just want to really start to put this now down onto paper. So the first time I've given this talk is the first time I've talked on this as a subject. So you obviously have to in many ways bear with me as I try to kind of offload a lot of the way in which I'm thinking, and I hope I can do this in an articulate way and it makes sense. And I also try to speak a bit slower now that I've got a little bit longer time. I've often accused of speaking too quickly. So as I get a bit more excited later on, that may happen, but I'll try to keep it under check. So as the history, I think this is quite important. And this also is about who I am as an academic, but also about my training. Now, my background is in anthropology, though. When it came to choosing a supervisor for when I did my PhD here, there really wasn't anybody in the anthropology department that could supervise me. The closest who became a very close friend to me would have been Bernard Fira, who I co-wrote a paper with in the Journal of Translation Studies. But I mean, his background really wasn't really suited to me, though he was very keen to kind of work with me. But then I was very fortunate to be supervised by Dr. Lars Lam and the senior lecturer of Chinese history here. So I did my PhD in modern East Asian history, though I'm not necessarily a historian by methodologically trained. But ethnic history is a branch of anthropology that kind of explores theory, anthropological theories, but in its applications to peoples and customs and cultures. In the past, most notably peoples of non-European background. So that's really kind of where I am. So I'm going to want to start my title, which is a slight alteration to the title that you've got, but the topic is not different and I'll open up that title in a moment. But I just want to kind of look at where I'm coming into this. I'm coming into this from an ethno-historical background. I'm not a linguist. And much of when we look at early migration, expansionism, tends to be viewed through ethno-linguistic eyes. And I can talk about this, but I'm not a linguist. And that's probably why it's important I just mentioned to you that I am looking at this through ethno-history. So in my sense, shall we begin? OK. So population movements and the constructions of modern tradition. And I really was really pleased just kind of as a follower to kind of Alice talk with these kind of contradictions. So I mean, we talked a bit about these contradictions this morning about fact and fiction. And here's another one of these paradoxical contradictions here of modern tradition. And I really want to explore this as an element about how do we construct tradition or how is tradition constructed? But I want to look at this in relations to population movements. And as part of the kind of the new Shelley book project, I want to be looking at this and bringing a contextualized past, but understanding it in a contemporary present. And so I will try to see if I can work my way through this. So for me, there are three key periods of where we see migrations and movements of indigenous people. And the first is the expansion period of into the Pacific Ocean. And then from the 17th century onwards, we see different forms of movements, different kinds of population movements, through processes of colonization. And I talk a bit about different types of colonization, which Taiwan has been subjected to. And then we have a more contemporary movement of people. And this is often framed within this rule to urban migration. And a lot of work actually has been done on this, but not necessarily in English language. But what I try to do is to kind of conceptualize this movement, but within past historiography. Does that make sense? So that's basically the purpose of my talk today. Really is to give you that kind of broad overview of how we understand population movements of indigenous peoples, as well as things. So we can kind of open up the discussion. Now I will kind of make clear for David that this breadth was not necessarily what we will see in the paper, but what I will start to do towards the end of the talk is talk about how that's going to be kind of constructed. So it's going to seem a very broad kind of talk, but that's for the purpose of just one me off loading, but also an opportunity for you to kind of understand how we make sense of this, okay? So the expansion into the Pacific. This is really quite key when we start to use specific terms, right? So one specific term that we can refer to indigenous peoples of Taiwan is Austronesian. You may have heard the word Austronesian. Austronesian is a linguistic term, right? It's not, there are no such things as Austronesian peoples, right? English is a part of the Indo-European language family, right? We're not Indo-European people, right? But people talk, right? And so linguistically, Austronesians must come out of mouths of people. It's just we don't necessarily have terms for those people. This becomes quite complicated, right? And I'm trying not to make it so complicated, but it's important that we are aware of these terms. So, but the Austronesian language family is one of the largest, or is probably one of the largest linguistic expansions in the pre-Columbian world, right? So there's a period before European language expansion. This had the widest reach. The most, can we see okay in terms of the map? So the most, so we have the Easter Island here in the Pacific to the Madagascar from Taiwan down to New Zealand. And so this is the extent of the Austronesian language family. What we can start to see from here is its roots, trying to find, so anything that we say, oh, here is an Austronesian language family, oh, where did it all begin? There is a consensus. There's a number of different kind of arguments, but there is at least a linguistic consensus that the Austronesian language family began in Taiwan and expanded from Taiwan from about 4,000 years before present. Now, this is quite interesting. We're getting when we start using terms like before present. Now, before present is roughly anywhere before the 1950s, really, when we started to nuclear bomb our world. We just can't carbon date because of the damage to carbon from the 1953 onwards. When it's often used archeologically as BP before presence, it's that period before the 1950s, so we can't test anything after that. We will also see the common area, which is probably the most used way. So these two things tend to be used interchangeably. We're not talking about an extended period before present to actual present, right? So we're talking about 4,000 BP. We see the expansion out, and I'll talk a little bit about this. We will come back to this map in a little bit later on. And so for one is this model called Out of Taiwan. So the Out of Taiwan model is when we look at 4,000 years of history within Taiwan. Now, 4,000 here is referring to the indigenous peoples as we know the indigenous peoples today, right? So the often known as being of 4,000 years is of Neolithic people. Now, many of the oral histories of a number of different indigenous groups do refer to a Paleolithic people, a people before those 4,000 years, but they would not be linguistically connected as Austronesian speakers. So Taiwan is a proto-Austronesian. This is where as far back as we can construct it to the beginnings of the speakers of Austronesia, which is about 4,000 years on Taiwan. When we start looking at this in terms of people and archeology, we start to know that from about 5,000 BCEs, and now we're talking about this in the common era, we see a versatile culture of fishing and gardening had developed on the south coast of China. And it's quite important to remember here we are not talking about Han Chinese people, we are talking about a very different Neolithic people living on the southern coast of China. They were accomplished at fishing and the waters of the Straits of Taiwan. We know from archeological evidence that they had good technology with the use of hooks, fish hooks, and netting. By 2,500 BCE, one group had ventured south to north of Luzon in the Philippines and began to settle there. The archeological records around the Cagayan Valley in northern Luzon shows that they brought with them the same set of stone tools and pottery. I'm not gonna go on for that long. I start as a person, it's all right, don't worry, don't really, don't worry, I'm made, I'm made. But the archeological records show that they brought with them the same set of tools. One of the kind of situate within the debate is that actually when we look at it linguistically the archeology seemingly follows the linguistics, right? Does that make sense? So we're finding that we do see the archeology making sense with this and particularly this is around the Dapangan culture, okay? And we're finding this in terms of pottery. So the Lapida cultures of the Pacific, which is probably the most represented of the cultures of Melanesia, Polynesia, we're finding very similar kinds of pottery, particularly corded, the types of clay that are being used, but the dating on oyster shells is showing a pretty earlier date in Taiwan than that. So this is essentially how we're looking at the archeological. So large-scale kind of language families such as Austronesian have spread essentially because of movements of actual founder speakers have occurred, right? So this is quite key here. So often we can see a spread of language, but this could be an adaptation from small groups of people who have adapted this language and then not necessarily seeing the movement of people. One movement of a large-scale people, one of these could be seen as, say, English on the Indian subcontinent, for example. So we see all English-spoken on the Malaysian part of the thing. So we see a movement of the language and adaptation of the language, but we don't necessarily see a mass movement of original speaking people into these particular areas. What we do see in the case of Austronesian is a movement of actual founder speakers having to occur. And Proto-Austronesian, as I mentioned earlier, was spoken in Taiwan as the homeland of the given language because it's close to that geographical location. That first determined that separation. Now, this is not new research, okay? So I'll be really clear here that this is just repeating stuff that's been done really. Mainly in the 1990s was quite a core period of which this research was carried out. And Proto-Austronesian really is simply the earliest stage of Austronesian that can be reconstructed. So what we do know is that 4,000 years we have this language being reconstructed. This language being constructed, sorry, in Taiwan. But as I mentioned earlier, there is this kind of record of a pre-Austronesian people. And that would account for the archaeological evidence that we see in sites such as Yanshan, Benan, okay, where we're seeing sites of much earlier peoples. But we also say we also see it within the kind of mythologies like the battles at the Bazaar. I, Serenity and Monstersight, for example, talking about the kind of disrespect to Dwarf or people of smaller stature, okay? And so there's a lot of this existing that when we start to look at the canoe design of the Yami people, we start to see this representation appearing on the front of the canoe. This kind of thing. So it's very interesting when we start to look at the mythology. So for example, one of the mythology of the Yami people is this fear of spirits. And so costume and regalia around that often point towards something else. But they'll see the only indigenous group existing on the particular island. And there's very little record of being kind of attacked from the Taiwan or the Ami on the coast. So this fear of a supernatural other often could be something linked to an earlier settlement of people on that island. And so here we can see the pottery. So here in the top, kind of the top left corner is that from sites of the Yuan Shan site in Taiwan and that is from Luzon. So we see similarity in the pottery site. So one of the questions that often then get asked is the kind of what caused people to move or what caused one particular group, the Taiwanic speaking people, which is the group that left. What caused this or encouraged this movement of people? And one argument is to do with population growth. Okay, so we were finding that through abundant harvest, which we can see archeologically, we see that essentially early Austronesian speaking people were attempting to avoid the Malthusian trap. And one way in which they did this was just to simply start migrating whole groups of people. And then we start to see this, we can start to see this when we start mapping this linguistic group. So what happened over the next kind of thousand years was that we saw Austronesian people migrating South Eastwood for the rest of the Philippines, the Celadus Islands, Borneo, and Indonesia. But this is not the only story, okay? So this isn't a linguistic and archeological theory, but if we were just kind of for the moment to summarize this, pre-Austronesian moved to Taiwan from Southern China to place in the Paleolithic, people that I talked about, a period in Taiwan was necessary. So we are talking about the Neolithic people in Taiwan must have been in Taiwan for a long period of time to become necessary for the different Austronesian language families, not just languages, but language families to develop and diversify. But then we see this rapid movement, which is often known as fast training. This rapid movement through the Philippines into Oceania as far as East of Samoa. And then you would have seen an additional pause for about a thousand years, somewhere in the Western Polynesia, for then the much greater Eastern Polynesian dispersal, which we're seeing it to down to the, on the coast of the East Island and down to New Zealand, so the Maui. For example, then up to Hawaii, which would have been a much later. But we're still talking thousands of years ago anyway, but we were seeing them later dispersal, which leads back to this particular map. So here we would have seen the initial one starting around the Wallace Line here. And then we would have seen that pause and then that much greater expansion that was happening a little bit later. And this was essentially very quick, violent hopping. But DNA and genetic testing is seemingly giving a very different kind of account to the origins of Austronesian speaking people. And that kind of debate surrounds around here, this period here, where we start to see a very different genetic makeup and we start to also see certain or specific archeological findings not being present on this particular area. And one of that is to do with rice. So we start to see the movement of rice downward. Rice has always played a kind of important part of the archeological basis of this movement from Taiwan, but we don't see it here. And so research, quite a bit of research actually is being done on that linguistic aspect. So we see population dispersal in and around that kind of area just north of Papua New Guinea, occurring at the same times that sea levels rose around 15,000 to 7,000 BCE. And genetic evidence that was found, this was in 2016, indicates that the movement of people from Taiwan to Southeast Asia would have brought the linguistic and cultural variations, but it was on a much smaller scale than is argued by those. So there is an acceptance in those who are coming from the genetic background. And I personally find that quite often quite hard to read because you get the kind of the juicy bits, right? The fun stuff, right? You get that bit in the beginning and then the rest of it is just talking about strands of DNA and that's just then unlocked. But at least within that kind of that middle section of the work that's being done by geneticists such as Stephen Oppenheimer at Oxford does kind of indicate towards that, well, yeah, we can't, we can't, as nurses argue against the linguistic evidence. We're just making the claim that it happened on a much smaller scale. And so one thing that they tried to do is to kind of unpack this expression part. So like, yeah, we would have had lengthy settlement in Taiwan for the language to kind of evolve and diversify, but then you have this kind of period with quite quick succession. How can we account for this genetically? And that's one of the errors. But what they often argue is some of the pitfalls that we find in linguistic paleology, and that is the cultural reconstruction based on proto words for cultural items. So for example, they will look at say a pig or dog and they will see how that language is being evolving from a source of entry. And so the genetic argument was to argue that actually that's quite problematic to do that. Though I think both the genetic system myself probably oversimplified this linguistically, right? To say I don't necessarily think that that's the argument that they're making. There's obviously something much, much more involved within that. But here is the kind of this pit where they find that this is where it becomes quite difficult. So they have here the express train from the Taiwanese homeland arriving in Southeast Asia. So they, you know, so we see this here, but then we see this something going on here. Now, I think it's quite important that when we start looking at this genetically, we would have had a return, right? It's not necessarily that people would have left Taiwan and not come back. If this is the case that we are starting to see kind of a genetic variant. I mean, for genetics to work, it meant that the people must be living in a particular area long enough to something to happen to be different to other people in surrounding islands. But if we are starting to see this kind of return, so later genetic make up being seen and appearing in people in the more than North, and we're starting to see that this was opening up as a trade network, right? And actually, we start to see this making kind of the early South Pacific kind of history as something much more than we've given it credit for this movement between islands, both back and forth and not just simply people leaving and expanding outwards, but you would have seen a continuous return, which opens up quite a lot in terms of research into what happened to the people on the Easter islands, for example. So actually, this has fairly big ramifications for studies across the Pacific because a lot of questions are asked, what happened to the people on the Easter islands? We have the Easter Island statues, but we have very, very little evidence of any kind of extended groups of people living there. But then this idea of movements back and forth could actually have something in it because it's quite interesting when we actually look at it, but go back very quickly to that map. I mean, the Easter Island is really, really far away from anything close. And research has been done that the people of the Easter Island would have been those who maybe would have come from the Americas, but we know linguistically that that wasn't the case, but that doesn't mean that people didn't. I mean, this again is about language and people, right? Pots don't talk, people do talk, but language can also move without necessarily being attached to that person. It all becomes quite complicated, right? But obviously, the more that we look at this, the more we can accept that there was extensive trade networks between these people, the greater our opportunity is to start seeing this bridge between the genetic side of the argument, the Southeast Asian model, and the Altatai one model. Anyway, so there are two things that kind of come out of this kind of models of migrations. One would be to do with population growth. So population growth means that people were doing pretty well, right? In terms of kind of farming, sustainable farming would have had to have taken place for there to have been an extended group of people to be able to leave. The Southeast Asian model does talk about changes in the environment. So we see these two things as having impact, and these two things seemingly today also kind of have impact, right? So this is kind of one thing of which I'm gonna be drawing out from this, is idea of population growth, and the environment, and the impact on the environment. But of course, here when we start to look at the breakup of the foremost languages into their linguistic groups, the Austronesian language family, it is this Paiwanic one that we see is the one that extends outwards. So I'll tell full languages that one of the things is to deal with the types of words of which that they were using are not found present in some of the other language families. This is one of the ways in which they often make the different variations. So some of the words which we do see, and we also see where we get that linguistic and we get the archeological evidence coming side by side. One is in the evolution of boat building. And so we see the canoes of the Yamia Island. We saw them in the talks that we had over the things. But we see a big evolving of that once we start to see this occurring in the southern parts of the Philippines into areas around Borneo. We see development of this. And of course, these are things taking hundreds, if not thousands of years in the process of doing that. But the outbreak of canoe is really key to breaking across the ocean. So when we start to see it in this context, we're starting to see that wider spread, the larger sections of ocean being able to be covered. But other things that we see as originating in Taiwan are things such as facial tattooing, so the tattooing instruments. We see rice as definitely having this earliest origin in Taiwan. We see the type of timber that is used for raising houses. As we see in this picture here, sweet potato, sweet potato became an important crop. And became an important crop for later migrations of Chinese settlement in Taiwan. The sweet potato played an important role in that. And we start to see dogs and pigs and the boner. So all of these things we see as having this earliest origin archeologically in Taiwan as a part of that expansion. But that's when we get to that wallace point of that area where we're not seeing these things raises a number of questions, right? We're not seeing these as being... So we're seeing a linguistic, cross-genetian speaking people, but we're not seeing these artifacts or this archeology. But that could be a number of reasons for that. They just haven't been found yet. Or two, it was just not things that were adapted by the people that were living on that particular. So there's a little big question mark going around that fairly large circle. But I still feel that there's enough evidence to suggest that Lee's Taiwan has played a role in the migration. We know people moved. At least we know that much. Maybe we should not become too ingrained in the origins, but just to kind of look at the acceptance of movements of people from Taiwan did at least a cat. Yeah. If someone had a bow and arrow facing at me, I ain't gonna stay in the boat. Yeah, maybe, there we go. On the fish. No, they're there for sure. They are pigs. No, they're not. No, the dog is fine. The dog's not gonna eat. He's quite happy, right? Is this where we are? Right? I'll come back. I'll come back to that one. That will be the question and I'll go the end. But what happened to the pigs? But there's kind of two things I think we need to look at this, really as we start moving forward. And that is about the landscape itself. So space, I think as always, I mean, space plays actually a important role in my research. Anyways, as I start moving into this project, once again, it's obviously appearing again in my work. And I think it's quite important that we differentiate space here or landscape in terms of absolute landscape and relative landscape. So when we talk about the absolute landscape, we're talking about that that's made by nature, essentially, right, that we, or as human beings have to adapt to, it's not something we control. So for example, Taiwan straddles the topic of cancer, right? So this is on the same kind of line as the Bahamas, Mexico, the Sahara, and the Arabian desert. So we do see differences in climate. But when we talk about migration, when we look at human migration, one of the things that tends to happen is that human migration tends to follow the same line, all right? And that's quite important to do this because when you start learning particular kinds of techniques of farming, the climate plays an important role in the types of farming that you're doing. So if you were to go too far north, you would need new or to adapt new kinds of technology to adapt to different kinds of farming, right? And if you were to go too far south, you would also then have to adapt. So it involves a degree of processing, right? But by simply moving along a particular line, the climate tends to be quite similar so that we would have similar kinds of agriculture. So this is actually quite an important thing when we start looking at this in terms of subtropical climate. Obviously, there's a difference between that of the Sahara and that of the thing that we are. But when we start looking at this within the tropical areas, the techniques of farming in the Fujian province were not too dissimilar to the farming techniques needed to be in Taiwan. So therefore, it makes sense for when we're looking at Chinese migration, that that was a tends to be a form. And the same with European expansion into the Americas tended to follow the similar kinds of line, but other further south new types of technology or new types of knowledge were needed to be adapted, right? We know that Taiwan is subtropical. So therefore, this is an absolute part of the landscape. The mountainous backbone, obviously, is something that of which has dictated where migration and what kinds of migration have been moving into these areas. And then we have the Rift Valley down through Taibang and then the Western and Louisville Ponds, which became obviously the main farming point for Chinese settlement from the 17th century onwards. And so here, just for those who are not so familiar with Taiwan, we have that. So this would be the Rift Valley, the mountainous backbone. So the tropic councillor runs somewhere across here and then we would have this Western and Louisville plain. But then we have the relative aspect of landscape. And this is things to do with population. So the population of indigenous people stays around 2.3%, or no more than 80,000 people. And I think it's quite important that though we've seen stages of colonization of indigenous people, we didn't get the Colombian exchange, right? We didn't get this decimation of numbers through process of colonization. In fact, there are more indigenous people in Taiwan today than there were in the Dutch, right, in the 17th century. And this is quite important, right? Because this is one of the things we don't often think about. So contact between indigenous peoples and peoples from a mainland continent must have taken place. Because disease amongst European settlers, the Dutch and the Spanish, did not bring with them the disease on indigenous populations as we saw in the Americas. So I think that would be another kind of thing in that comparison with Latin America was that we didn't see that. So there must have been contact to these kinds of illnesses. So there's definitely a lot of assistance to that. So we see more peoples. And this is part of that relative aspect of the landscape. So prior to colonization, there was no intensive agriculture, but there was small-scale farming. Settlement patterns reflected the absolute landscape, so hunting, fishing, gathering. All of this was subjected to the kinds of landscape to which the peoples were there. We see this linguistically as well. So sea fish, obviously, only appears on coastal dwelling indigenous groups, but then, of course, the more internal, the more interior you go, the different kinds of fish that you would be doing. So you would have different kinds of words for different kinds of fish, for example. So that's kind of moved us onto this kind of second, the second kind of period. And that is 1620. When we talk about the 1492 for the case of the Americas, there's the 1624, really, where we start to see this. So the Dutch, I mean, 1622 is on Ponghu, but the 1624 is really where we start to see this on Taiwan proper. But each period, I mean, I think as a kind of, when I'm looking at this in the micro history, do tend to have problems with quite a lot, you know, this kind of periodization that we've seen. But this is just a general consensus about how periods are. But each period brought a different form of colonization, and I want to talk a bit about this. But just to kind of, perhaps, stay in line with some of the other talk to our eye, I have a video to show. But what I want us to kind of do is to look at how trade and interaction within colonial periods played a role in the way in which we see population movement and migration. So this is a film that was done during the Japanese colonial period of a group of indigenous people going to a trading station to exchange bamboo. I don't think we should be all right for light, but we'll have a, I think we should be all right. We'll see. Thank you. Just any comment will pay the whole thing. But the kind of main purpose of doing this is to look at the way in which the population, the way in which the movements are different. The setting up of trading posts, and later on in the colonial period, like Mission Hospital posts, actually started to have an effect on the way in which the population movements were moving away from specific communities. So they were becoming more and more relying on these trading posts rather than on their extended communities. And we see all that, obviously, with the video. I wanna kind of just spend a bit of time just talk about some of the work that I have done. So as Daphne mentioned to you at the beginning of about the two Shini books that I published during the time I was here, the first really was looking at this from a missionary context. We're looking at that during the late Qing period. And we start to see the documenting of indigenous peoples in places outside of traditional communities. And so here was outside of the Mission School. We see this working towards the constructions of the railways. All of these were done, all these photographs are from Maxwell. James and Maxwell, and they're all here in the SOAS archives. And here we see, again, this is another kind of a trading post just outside of that now. We see the documentation. Very interestingly is the photographic evidence of indigenous peoples and the movements of indigenous peoples was also then attached to the written words. So Maxwell, he wrote an account of his movements towards the interior of Taiwan. Also, these are the photographs that kind of accompanied some of that text. And we start to see a beginning of the game when we start to look at yesterday's talk about this idea of appropriation or representation. We start to see people beginning to start dressing in indigenous attire. And this played, of course, this also then played an important role in exchange. So one of the things that came up in the discussion I think yesterday was on beads, glass beads. And glass beads played a very important thing, not just in the case of Taiwan, but globally as trade beads. So these were beads that were traded for objects and these objects are that that we see appearing in museums and collections all over the world. And so one of the things that we often find is that the costumes of which that they're wearing most likely were traded by glass beads. Those glass beads are things we start seeing appearing on indigenous costume much later on in the 20th century is the start of the use of this. But this exchange of trade beads was something that we're seeing appearing much earlier. And so in the, I'm glad that from this morning's talk this is something that completely hasn't been set up, but there is a photograph of the British who then later on took over that part of the Spanish fort in Dancerie and this is the photograph of the British in that very fort of which the Dutch fought the Spanish over. And so if you know where the British residence is in the Dancerie thing, there is a pathway now that leads you out to Lethey University and up to Oxford College. That photograph is taking out that entrance there. I'm just a quick plug. So a lot of this is actually in the second of the two books that I wrote here. So there's me giving the little interview for Daphne there. So that's done. So there's a quick plug. If you're interested in that photographic evidence this is readily available for around 1,000 NT in shops in Taiwan. But then of course we start to see a different kind of population movement during the colonial period under the Japanese and most notably was in 1910 during the British Japan exhibition at White City in London in Shepard's Bush in London. Here we see a forced removal of Indigenous people from the southern Taiwan village who were put on display as a living museum in London. And so this was a family of people who were moved to London and were put on display. The objects that were left by the Japanese colonial government ended up in the British Museum, which is a project that I'm also currently working on. Very interestingly, after the British Japan exhibition that same group of people were moved to France. In France they disappeared. We don't know where they are. So some French ancestry, right? They will have Taiwan Indigenous blood, who knows. But the family, the organisers of the exhibition went and their family were no longer there. We don't know where they went. But that was the British Japan exhibition. This was the formation of Pavilion and this is the village of which was reconstructed. And then just applied to my next book, which is due out next month, which I co-wrote with Professor Hu Jiu from the Department of Anthropology at Taiwan, looks at that collection in the British Museum. So do have a look out for that. So just going back to kind of colonialism for a moment, Taiwan had different forms of colonialism. So if we look at Andrande's book, the book of which Sheldon was talking about in this morning session, very much looks at this hybrid form of colonization. Hybrid form of colonization was that the Dutch were there. Can't remember as like colonial master to the Chinese who were working the farming things, but both were forming a kind of a triangle, almost a kind of a triangular form of colonization where both will see their settlement. So we start to see that really right up through into the end of the Dutch colonial period of which was then replaced by a settler form of colonization. This was with settlers, Chinese settlers coming over from Fujian and from Guangdong. The settler colonization is that very similar we see to the colonizations of North America by European settlement at roughly the kind of same sort of period of time. We then move into a semi-form of colonization in 1860s. And I call this semi-form of colonization because the British didn't formerly colonize Taiwan, but it was having an impact on it in through mission statements, through mission stations, including schools and hospitals. And quite interestingly, one of the things that we found out through the schools, particularly the girls schools, was that by the time of Japanese colonization, Taiwan indigenous girls were far more literate than their Han Chinese counterparts simply because indigenous communities were not having the same kind of constraints in sending girls to school. And a lot of that kind of evidence on the literacy rates of indigenous girls and Hakka also by extension, are here in the archives at Sawa. So that's just to kind of give you an idea that actually a lot of this kind of records we find here. And then of course from 1895 with Taiwan being part of the Japanese imperial empire, we start to see Taiwan being colonized in much the same way as other imperial colonies were elsewhere. And then we have this period in 1945 which could be argued as being former colonization in exile, which would put Taiwan as being kind of really, I can't think of an additional example of where we've had this. So these different forms of colonization gave way to different forms of population movements and when we're looking at population movements through a colonial, very kind of extended colonial period, we do need to take into account that the different forms of colonization resulted in different ways in which the people were different motivations for the movements of people as well. And so one of the things that we kind of came out of the talks that yesterday is the way in which that we conceptualize indigenous peoples. Our understanding of indigenous peoples or in many ways indigenous peoples, understanding of indigenous peoples largely comes from that first set of ethnography that was done by the Japanese. In the beginning of the 20th century. Now the Japanese had two, basically two decisions to make in times of anthropology. One is the social anthropology of which the British and French had done in terms of essentially learning how to rule. Universities like his university was set up very much to train colonial or official think colonial rule. So social anthropology was one option of which the Japanese could look at. The other is culture anthropology and culture anthropology was a branch that really extended out of the United States. But when the United States started to look at cultural anthropology its understanding of its indigenous peoples was almost too late. That they should have done this much earlier that the indigenous people that they began to start recording were very much becoming part of an assimilated American people. And so the Japanese who had to make the decision not to do a combination of both cultural and social anthropology and different anthropology, different anthropologists chose different routes. So some of the earlier ones like Inokunori for example and then the others in terms of the linguistic kind of looking at this linguistically was to divide them into the nine linguistic groups of which we know as Austronesian languages today. So this was also very quite interesting. But this became the labels of which that we started to see following up through to the end of the Japanese colonial period and then into the post-war period. So we have this unfortunate system of recognised and unrecognised. Now some of the work of which that I've done with the British Museum is largely artefacts of the unrecognised indigenous groups which actually did prove quite complicated in our preparations for a museum exhibition of that collection was sponsorship for this because they come from unrecognised groups. This is objects and artefacts belonging to people with seeking recognition. Now the exhibition of that item will be of those items will be at the National Museum of Taiwan History in 2021. So the 380, not probably all of it but live portion of that collection will come to Taiwan for the first time since it left Taiwan. And I'm quite happy at the end to kind of talk a bit more about that collection if that's what people are interested in. But obviously as we know that even situated within this there are obviously more than 700 tribal communities that exist even within these recognised and unrecognised groups. So why do I am recognised? I'm not going to talk too much about this because it's probably knowledge already known but for those who are not is this label of ping-pong tool, right? Ping-pong people. Ping-pong just means people that are plain Aboriginal people so it's just a term that's used to lump and everyone else. So basically it's a miscellaneous category of everybody that's not quite yet recognised in recognition. If you go through process of recognition we'll find yourself moving yourself out of the ping-pong category and of which the remaining people will remain part. So it's the and others and essentially it's the terminology for that. When we start to move now out of the kind of colonial period into a contemporary period about what constitutes our original land we still do tend to look at the demarcation of the guard line. So this was a map that was produced in 1901 on the Japanese guard line. So here we would have where the indigenous groups are so the groups that were existing inside this kind of area were those who either assimilated or yeah so for those who are those who are assimilated so this would be where essentially where we would have had that kind of plain Aboriginal group. And then this guard line the guard line, the movement of this guard line varied according to the year so here we start to look at the extension of that guard line from 1895 to 1909 you see how long it was so we see increases of this within the 20th century so we didn't see a decrease no to speak. And then this kind of ways in which that we then make this separation between plain Aboriginal people and then later refer to as being mountain compatriots was largely an extension so the government in 1945 just tended to inherit that of which the Japanese had labelled and left behind. So when we start moving into contemporary issues one of the key things here is about official designations and names okay and this is things that we are starting to see changes but perhaps not necessarily at the rate of which the conditions people would like. But there have been two major developments and this is something I think we've seen from this summer school one is a rise in interest right and there's definitely been a rise in interest in Indigenous peoples and Indigenous studies and the second thing has been this continuous outflow of Indigenous people from rural to urban areas so the question that we need to ask is of what to what extent has this benefited Indigenous peoples right so one thing we could look at is to see how long this interest Indigenous peoples has been going on for and whether or not that a rise in interest has in turn led to any kind of significant change or whether or not that this outflow from rural to urban areas has in a sense benefited Indigenous people in the long run if not why not right one of the things that we do know that is that household incomes of time in Indigenous peoples are less than 40% of its national average unemployment is significantly higher than the national average and tourism we've seen tourism development in rural areas as being a kind of a direct response to these kinds of problems but however I'd argue that tourism in itself involves transforming Indigenous cultures into curiosities and tends to be that these certain Indigenous groups will then adapt their cultures or threaten for the cultural patches for the purposes of tourism we saw this in the moving of the dates of harvest to be more suitable for tourists right that would be one example of that but I think in turn that this also leads to these notions of savior complex right and so we do find that you know as we start getting the tourists and the things in the plight of the Indigenous people meaning that we're having to do to do you know going into these Indigenous communities is to set up kind of like clinics and stuff like this and we're doing these things that is this savior complex notion that seems to be coming from from the hand majority and that in turn does assert notions of racial and cultural superiority and this is a complex issue right because to what extent does it happen what is it how needed but this this this has this is something we see in a lot of development stuff right aid itself was often talked about the white man's burden right this idea of European is helping our Africans right and so we see we see these kinds of notions do in existing not just within the Taiwan context but also elsewhere as well um so I just put a couple of pictures there about this idea of performance and performance was something that Adam spoke about it came up in yesterday's talks as well to what extent to what extent is this helping Indigenous peoples I mean with the performance of Indigenous peoples is not new right this was going on during the Japanese colonial period even periods before that was Indigenous peoples on display right so this idea of this Taiwan group going to London and put on display is a performance right I mean I think with video technology now it would just be a TV screen right which is a very positive ability we don't need to bring the people in right um and um but we're you know with this this idea of performance and this idea of performing Indigenous culture is still something that we are still experiencing and seeing today as part of this movement so some of the kind of social issues we're seeing is that this goes back to the kind of the initial talk is about the conceptualizing of Indigenous people this idea of Pan Aboriginalism the debate over national identity there's kind of a collective identity of Indigenous people coming together as one particular group as a way of debating concepts of national identity which we see in Taiwan as a whole and the role that they are playing in they're the role that they play within domestic politics and we've seen some very interesting discussions before about kind of concepts of voting behavior amongst Indigenous peoples the Indigenous right and it's quite important to kind of situate this historically that the Indigenous rights movements emerge within the larger opposition movements that happened in the 1980s but what's also particularly interesting is the role the Presbyterian Church played in both movements and that's the work that I did on the first book that I did with Daphne I think one of the key things that came out of yesterday's talks is this idea about disadvantaged peoples right is that Indigenous peoples as a collective are not disadvantaged there may be disadvantaged people within an Indigenous community but there are disadvantaged people in many communities right and I think we need to not look at this as a collective Indigenous people collectively are disadvantaged right but I do agree with our yesterday that we do need to situate this within the past we do need to situate the social issues of Indigenous peoples within historical injustice but we shouldn't and this is where my my head gets a bit complicated we shouldn't necessarily structure Indigenous people around historical injustice does that make sense so yes we should situate it within historical injustice but we shouldn't structure it around this and I think one way which we can look at this comparatively would be looking at Black history and those roles of slavery we should definitely situate Black history within the history of slavery but we shouldn't structure Black history around slavery right because there are many kinds of Black history there's not surround because that makes sense so my idea is we should be doing the same thing with our understanding of Indigenous peoples so this is kind of bringing me to a close here so one thing we have seen as Indigenous populations has grown haven't seen a decline over the last 30 years but this has led to dramatic geographical movements from Indigenous communities to metropolitan areas this is largely for education and non-agricultural work much of that work is labour intensive service sector jobs assembly line production construction and driving we have seen an increase in cross-cultural marriages but just to give you some statistics and I would like to get more up to date one but that's the one I had in the time for preparing for this is that 6% in 1983 6% lived outside of traditional communities by 2009 39% were living in urban areas i.e outside of the communities and I would expect that more up-to-date statistics would show an increase in that the biggest out-migration is actually within the Eastern Hualien and Taedong corridor and I'll show you a map of this at the moment but I think this is quite interesting because yesterday we were talking about this on a legal basis right and I was having to think about this last night about this idea about being an Indigenous person but that question that kind of had kind of raised was how does out-migration affect that article 2.4 on Indigenous peoples basic law and the definition of tribe and I think Dara actually helped me in his talk about how that can probably be answered and Dara will correct me if I mis-answered you and that's that concept of bull law right the concept of tribe could be something of which can be both physical space but also a perception of being part of a tribe so therefore you can live in Taipei but still belong to Amis, Paiwan or the tribe or the group of which you've come from so and I think that's for me kind of an answer to this so outward migration doesn't necessarily affect the concept and idea of being part of an Indigenous group or of being an Indigenous person and so this map shows this kind of distribution of in Taiwan Indigenous people so this Taiwan Indigenous areas if you look at the green are following that old line you know that old guard line which we saw in the 1901 Japanese map we're starting to see that we know but what we are seeing now is large concentrations of Indigenous peoples being in major metropolitan areas but we are still seeing this kind of that riff failure still being you know very original Indigenous culture and Indigenous heritage and that's quite interesting because I was reading things on the history of surfing and it was talking about that old ideas of Hawaii for surfing are now more apparent in places like Dulan in Taidong than they are in Hawaii and I thought that was quite an interesting thing it was one of those kind of like magazine articles I can't remember where I was trying to figure out where I read it but I always thought that was quite an interesting thing and that link came back to the past of our tradition expansion right so just a couple of kind of tables here just to kind of when we start to have a look at this we start to look at comparisons of college entrance amongst high school graduates so we start to see we start to kind of see this difference here so this 30 is almost kind of 30 percent increase right if we can see in that but we are still seeing this difference between those of Indigenous heritage going to university and those who aren't other things life expectancy and I think this is this is quite incredible right 10 years difference between being an Indigenous man and being a non-Indigenous man I mean that's significant and we talked a bit about this about the industries the kind of work that we're doing but then we start to see this also in the female context as well those who aren't working in driving for those who aren't so you know we you know we are seeing a significant difference right average salary those between 10,000 to 20,000 you know almost half of the rural population are earning with that so we're starting you know to see this I mean one of the things that we do see is a very interesting kind of period between this brackets here amongst urban Indigenous people being more than the national average in these areas but those obviously as we start moving beyond the 60,000 and then beyond 80,000 we are starting to see a clear thing but this also does give indications also about income distribution amongst high one as a whole right when we start looking at figures like this anyway so this modern tradition is kind of where I want to kind of end really so about how we use or how when or how Indigenous people in the conceptualization of Indigenous I mean ideas of tradition within Indigenous society for me tradition itself is within the process right and the components of tradition the components the main component of tradition is the maintaining of a living society right the other idea of tradition is to just maintain it as a living community as a living society and not something of past right but in order to do that tradition needs to embrace the processes of modernity and I think that the main I mean one particular area which we can look at this in the in the case of Taiwan is on the men of Dulac right we see this in Fotoalassai's Amis hip-hop right and we're seeing that modernity is seen as the social fact of self-realization that actually being modern is a very important part of being traditional within this part of Amis culture so Kapa that age group each uses the symbols of modernity as a way to express themselves we've seen this we've seen video evidence of this during the Japanese colonial period these adaptations of Japanese pop culture in the 1930s was being used as a way for Amis Indigenous men to express themselves by bringing in what was then to be modern and we saw this later on so that I mean it's quite interesting if you actually look at Fotoalassai's video it's filmed on Amis hip-hop amongst that particular age group the following age group that came up is the work of say Suming right and we see how Suming is now featuring to a much wider popular culture that we see in places like Japan and Korea and his adaptations towards these aspects of modernity which are very different to what we saw in Amis hip-hop even though there's you know there's ten ten-year difference between that but this is all part of the processes of tradition so one can observe not only tradition within the culture but we can also view how each table each age group identifies themselves at different stages in their history and I'm just going to end kind of just talk a little bit about us so this kind of this period with just establishing the Northern Institute of Taiwan Studies at our university but a major part of this is going to be a centre for Austronesian studies and the key thing for that centre will be to put the Pacific part in our Asia Pacific program but I just want to say thank you everyone for kind of listening and I'm happy to kind of answer any questions so thank you thanks Nicky that was as always a fascinating talk I mean one of the things I found really interesting in your talk was the way that you were kind of engaging in dialogue with many of the the sessions that we've held over the last three days but also with your own how you're kind of linking this talk with your earlier works I've got a load of questions but let me try kind of limit myself here one of the questions I thought that was really interesting that you raised was this issue of to what extent is this urban rural to urban migration that we're seeing that's come up in a lot of the presentations in the last couple of days is it a good or a bad thing for indigenous community so this kind of engages with the so what element of your topic so we've got a how the patterns the why is what's pushing migration and the so what what are the consequences I mean overall you've commented quite a bit on the so what for your third period how would you assess that that's so what question for let's say your second period the colonial or different the different types of colonial era could you comment a little bit about that okay so I think the first the first part if we're looking at whether or not that this rural to urban migration has benefited indigenous peoples your first part of that question I think when we look at this in terms of the tables it's really kind of hard to measure how we can't see where but of course then you know this idea of going to get university education and going to study war at Washington has obviously has that benefit to people but similar you know so I think it's a difficult question I mean is how they how indigenous peoples themselves see this rural to urban whether or not they themselves see it of being a benefit but when we start to look at this through statistics it's quite hard to see how it has because we're still seeing these disparities between national averages and indigenous groups but again we would probably need to break this down even further inside to see about where are the you know where are we seeing these disparities so I would say it's hard to sort of measure about whether it has been of a benefit I think on an individual level to many of course I would see it would be a benefit but to some perhaps not so much right that middle sections of colonization on the so what why is it important kind of so well so right I think population movements we started to see the opening up of particular kinds of areas during periods of colonization I think each period of colonization the way in which that the discourse or our understanding of indigenous people the labeling and the way in which this is the period of which that this was taking place in so how indigenous peoples of use was very much conceptualized in the colonization period and this will be through multiple sources of the and different forms of colonization so we see the conceptualization of indigenous peoples in English through the records of the of the church we know that statistically a large portion of indigenous people are Christians so the role of the church has played has played a has played a role um it's played a part um both within the understanding of indigenous peoples outside of Taiwan but also has played a part in how indigenous people themselves conceptualize senses of their their own sense of self um those church-based groups play important roles and stuff like that so but of course also simultaneously we see this in other periods so the writings during the Qing period particularly around the the 18th century and early 19th century we start to see the methods of which indigenous people being labeled as played a part and how indigenous peoples are framed and other things so I would say that the different periods of colonization has an important part in how indigenous peoples not just within Taiwan but globally have been conceptualized and some of the statistics that you raised I thought were actually quite um surprising I was I mean the one about the shift from six percent to thirty nine percent of indigenous peoples living outside there or living in urban areas um and you kind of hinted that if we had the most up-to-date figures that would be even even higher that kind of raised two questions for me um one is to what extent does this rural to urban migration actually start earlier uh what about the Japanese colonial period um is it evident there um and a follow-up question uh and again it ties into something that's being discussed in some of the earlier sessions is um is this return to the tribe just a slogan uh is it something that we can actually see statistically because you've hinted that um it's not going to come up in stats um I was wondering um whether you had any thoughts on that um I think there is evidence of we see an increase of indigenous people working within the beginnings of urban areas we see we we even see it before the Japanese colonial period so the late Qing period we're seeing a number of indigenous girls going to schools so like Dantree girls school had on their role the majority of the of the school population there were either Haka or indigenous make up by a few others from elite families but um we we know that that would have been a movement but again there wouldn't necessarily have been the movements of what we're seeing today those kind of indigenous girls that are rolling enrolling at that school were local to the Dantree area then but now we they're unrecognized indigenous groups um and I think the same bit in the early Japanese colonial period that that which was moving or migrating to urban areas are those in areas now which will be part of what we would be the unrecognized indigenous groups I think movements from the interior more interior areas the mountainous areas into the things I think perhaps towards the end um of the colonial period we would be a bit more evident there is work that has been done on this now and it would be a case of looking a bit closely at this um what we do see is obviously the the conscription of indigenous peoples into the Japanese imperial I mean that's something quite significant when we start to see and that's also again a population movement of people um and sorry what was the next yeah I think that was uh you you kind of um you responded to both of those those questions okay let's open some um oh yeah Darrell and then Jenna I hope you don't mind that's fine okay thanks um for the thank you for the wonderful talk I thought it listening to it I thought it could be like the introduction to the collection it was like kind of the state of the field with a clear theme of the push and pull and human migration over the the millennia um I just had a couple of comments and a couple of questions um comment on Bulo that you mentioned towards the end there's like a virtual Bulo or a Bulo and cyberspace idea especially with instant messaging softwares like line so there might be like a line Junzu group online and there's an article I read about this about language learning groups on online anyway that's an obvious way for people today to kind of keep uh in touch with their with their Bulo even if they're not actually living in the space and Bulo like the word community can be both a place and a group of people whether or not they're in the same space as you you explained and um a second a second comment is uh when I was in last time I was in Mishi one of the families I was staying with Mishi is a is a is a Bulo community in central Taiwan and they had Feiyong and that's how they described her they had a Feiyong living with with them and so I thought oh okay indigenous people as kind of disadvantage but they they have the economic where with all two to employ a Feiyong so I really like what you said about we we shouldn't define them as economically and socially disadvantaged but at the same time the statistics you presented show that on average they are so that that that has to be part of the explanation but we shouldn't assume that this defines every last family um that third question about the commune exchange because I I guess you mean syphilis or I mean syphilis was mono mono zoom is revenge right but uh it was revenge against um um a disease is brought by uh Columbus and and other conquistadors and uh and other explorers and later on conquistadors Doris sorry my Spanish uh my Spanish but um as for like the biological exchange I think there's uh a lot of the the plant species especially in the western planes came to Taiwan in in the 16th and the 17th centuries and I think you can document that to a certain can document which species were introduced and then maybe even some species uh because it's supposed to be an exchange right uh species are brought to Taiwan what about species coming from Taiwan the Chinese Wilson has anyone heard the Chinese Wilson is this a plant hunter in the early 20th century who mainly went to China and got plant species that were potentially economically more marketable for horticultural firms he also came to Taiwan and named a couple of species and I think you might have even have sold a couple of these species to um to to uh horticultural companies greenhouses in in uh in Europe and in America final thing um you mentioned like different uh layers of colonization in um in Saedek uh the word for pig is babui and so I asked people from the Philippines Tagalog it's also babui and I asked people from Indonesia it's babui it's obvious the same word but uh having listened to your presentation I guess we don't know for sure which way the the influence goes there's another word for pig boyak boyak and babui boyak is wild pig babui is is is uh domesticated pig and so that might be evidence of uh kind of different layers of language in a pre-Austronesian layer to the language I don't know how how much one can generalize to other languages final thing uh the word for money in Saedek is pila and the word for um silver in Tagalog is pilak and I think it there cognates but having listened to your presentation I guess um it's hard to know which direction the influence went could you guess like if I said pila in Saedek and pilak in uh in in Tagalog which do we have enough evidence to say which direction the uh the the word went where it started and and where it ended up thank you okay so I think um from so thanks very much Darryl for um for your your comments and your questions I think um in terms of the kind of the clan that clan being exchanged I mean I took that directly from the book title called the clan being exchanged I was talking more about kind of the like European diseases which we see deservate populations within within the Americas we didn't see the same we didn't see the same situation with regards to to the populations of not just for Taiwan but but a lot of Pacific Island people um and this tends to him towards contact that these are not people who have not been in contact with European based diseases um um the term for pigs I think was was one of the ones which has often come up but and that's where the archaeological evidence comes in and we see that peak bones particularly the domestication of peak bones as earliest in Taiwan this is where um this is where Peter Bellwood who is the archaeologist really the one to kind of being at the forefront as as is um Jared Diamond who becomes gems and steel book I mean he he wrote uh Taiwan's gift to the world for the nature of it he feels often he feels a bit embarrassed by the fact that people keep quoting Jared Diamond where he's like you know they're just drawing on the scholarship of other people are mainly Peter Bellwood within that but it was Blast who is the linguist at the university I follow Lula I think you retire professor but was that the University of Honolulu was the one that kind of looked at this linguistically and what Peter Bellwood said like okay I want to find the evidence archaeologically and he he did they would kind of it run between the two of them and there are the um kind of linguists that said you know what there's some kind of things and I think money is actually an interesting one because I think it's hard to locate this archaeologically right so we don't we see silver for example appearing in the Philippines way before it appeared in Taiwan but that doesn't mean that would be evidence but yeah if we are talking but then we could also be that there were other means but but you know there's also shells which appear earlier in Taiwan then appear in the Philippines we don't know where we because shells are often used as a monetary form yeah um it could well be that this was a word that was used for money but we don't know what that connection where it was to shells yeah initially and so there may well have been a word for a shell that's something which an animal lived in like tortoise or something like that but then there would have been an additional word for that that's been used in exchange right so we could well have had it earlier in Taiwan but that's where the the genetic argument comes in like we can't keep doing this thing by looking at linguistic paleotology because people may well have changed the name of their word for it and I think money was one of actually I think money was one that Stephen Oppenheimer talked about by being like actually that can be quite problematic because silver was obviously a word which was then used for exchange of money particularly in the Philippines after and obviously also after Spanish onwards at the Philippines we're seeing a major introduction of silver for the use of money but then of course whatever local people were using as as currency would then be just the word would have changed to why a very new material and I think you could have said something else besides silver before yeah absolutely so um I think that was also quite an interesting one so I think this idea but that's why I I mean I theorized that we could have seen and in exchange a back and forth movement and I think that would actually kind of in many ways add to these but the problem with the back movement into Taiwan is that we're not seeing the development of particularly in bone culture as shipbuilding we're not seeing that returning um and so there would have been there would have been other forms perhaps you just didn't need to kind of be traveling back on you know maybe they didn't want to but this is this is where it all becomes kind of an interesting thing and I I think this going for me or this idea of going back to the origin perhaps missing my what I'm trying to do and my my my key thing here um as something that I can use to conceptualize it is material culture right is that populations move with material culture so when we're looking at that Taiwan village that family of five people who were put on the boat at Gaoshong arrived in Southampton and came up by the train to to London um that that that family brought with their material culture that material culture got left behind and then people then began to kind of conceptualize and say what indigenous people are so I think what we do and we see this in contemporary um population movements to urban areas will be how creative industries work so I think perhaps material culture is something that we can see moving with people and we do the pink pinks would be one and money potential is on the whole um my question kind of brings together two thoughts from your talk the first is that um I mean I quite agree with the idea of not positioning the indigenous narrative as one of injustice because I think we can all agree it's very important that indigenous people kind of have control of their own narrative in a world where a lot of people I think especially China but a lot of people want to use indigenous the indigenous narrative to sort of meet their own ends um but also I was very interested to hear about your use of the word colonialism to talk about not just Japan but also Chinese incursions into Taiwan I have long felt that for example the Qing era and the ROC era could also be called colonial and I'm happy to know that I'm not crazy but um I know it's interestingly you said that you you kind of made it seem like colonialism ended in 1987 um when we talk about indigenous people taking control of their own narrative and what that means in terms of you know whatever um I would say many indigenous would not agree that colonialism ended in 1987 I mean we have Tsai Ing-wen who sure she apologized for but is still not willing to return a million hectares of land that indigenous say they are entitled to is that not still a form of colonialism and where do we draw the line between us deciding our interpretation of what the narrative should be and stepping back and letting them them come out and say no that's not really how it is if that question makes any sense at all I mean I completely agree with you I mean I it's just for in many ways simplicity that I put 1987 as the particular date because of end of martial law but that would be why but absolutely but I'd say that colonialism for most fair nation peoples or native peoples and tensed of never really left if a majority settle settler groups have a right as it is in the case of Native Americans First Nation Canadians Aborigines and Maori where they will potentially would believe that colonization still exists I thought I would absolutely agree I it was just for giving a period I mean but I your part kind of the the Qing narrative of colonization I think I think it's always important that people and here are now going to sound like Bruce Jacobs I think it's always important that people understand that the Qing the Manchu Empire colonized China and colonized Taiwan but not necessarily as a single entity so the colonization of Taiwan was very different to the colonization of China one good example of this is that foreign people could own property in Taiwan they couldn't own property in China that would be one example of a difference between between these things and that's really where my research my own research came in the book with Routledge was to make that case that we saw a very different leaching period in Taiwan than we saw in China proper and so but I always say the framing set framing as settler colonialism then gives agency to indigenous people by making it clear that they that the peoples that were coming from the 17th century onwards were settler peoples right and so we then also we start to see the kinds of degrees of factionalism amongst different groups of settlement particularly in the 18th century we can start to look at that and then we start to open up this more if for comparative purposes I think the comparatives to the United States is very very clear when we start to frame it in this particular way we see a westward expansion in the United States and we see eastward expansion in Taiwan but almost at the same kind of period and for the same purpose the opening of new lands that have not yet been formed and what that meant for the indigenous people so the Oregon trail for example in the American story we see in similar kinds of trails other trails in the Taiwan context as well but yeah okay yeah for him underneath thanks for much for the talk it was very interesting I think we haven't kind of exhausted the theme of language transmission because I was I was kind of interested in coming back to that because so it's quite easy to see how sort of words for in material culture like you know the word for pig word for silver might be transmitted as part of a as part of exchange but it's a little bit what what are the kind of I'm interested in what the how how is the how are the bits of language kind of how do we conceptualize the other bits of transmission of other things in language which are maybe not which wouldn't be involved in trade assuming that trade is kind of the mechanism of of language transmission it's a very very very good question and unfortunately not one I can answer because I don't come from this from a linguistic perspective so looking at other angles of language um it's not really something that I can answer I'm afraid but I don't know if anyone else has I can just say a little thing okay yeah because when you were talking about the periodization of the austronesian expansion it really helped me understand why there'd be such a similarity between language I study in central Taiwan and Tagalog I don't know the details but if you compare Tagalog to language I study the the verbal morphology is uncannily similar they have four focuses and the the affixes that indicate the focus the focus is a kind of subject so actor focus passive focus patient focus location and instrument it's the same in Tagalog and the the affixes are the same prefixes suffixes infixes so the same it's uncanny but you don't see such a close similarity with language like like Maori but that's explained but I think by what Iggy was saying about the about when the people went where they went the periodization that the timing of the of the expansion is that what you were asking about yeah I suppose I suppose I was quite interested in if we have any idea about the the actual sort of the mechanism of how the transmission happened yeah in that sense that I don't know maybe I think Nicky I think in terms of the mechanism I think it was I think um I think one of the things that Peter I mean I'm going to refer to Peter Boward who is the one who looked at this particularly in the in Luzon in northern of the northern Philippines um one way in which they were doing this was that the community there was it was a relatively small community um and that that through the processes of kind of interaction and trade certain words were deducted for things they didn't have so introduction for rights for example they just took that particular word and then subsequently it was them that were introducing rights down so it wasn't just this one kind of um this one Taiwan group who decided to go to to to Luzon and their native family continued until they got really old and then um but what we were seeing was in the state of the processes but that it kind of exchange of goods but one of the things that we interest me is whether or not that amongst that group in Luzon where we see a return of the language one of the things that we could see is return of the people right because that starts to account for changes in the genetic which is where the genetic arguments came from but actually the fact that the people came up through Southeast Asia as opposed to down from Taiwan it's because we do get Southeast Asian genetic markers amongst indigenous peoples particularly in southern Taiwan but that to me that makes sense if people came back into marriage so we don't know how we what we do know is that that period was relatively quick period um so we could have just had this consistent exchange and I think that's probably how we see the mechanism for that but I honestly I think most of this would have been about trade um one of the ways in which that it could happen would be just through being driven of course because of sea currents one of the things that's quite important is the conversation I also had with Adam when we were looking at this in the concepts of Spanish foremost is that we have to not use our modern sensibilities about how we navigate oceans right um the crossing of the Taiwan Strait even time is like 150 kilometers from mainland um China to to the mainland part of of China to Taiwan it's not easy to navigate across so when we start talking about the Ming dynasty to turn her voyages there's no he didn't go into Taiwan right there's no evidence to suggest that he did plus it's very difficult to get across that even though that he followed Arabic trade groups that's because the winds would have been right to do that right so the idea of this Taiwan going to things may well have been first as trade like maybe a a conscious decision to just keep sailing um or it could be blown off course and had arrived on this particular thing and then opened up for that thing that's a possibility we know that this happened amongst European shipwrecks going through that so that if you're talking about the kind of the mechanisms of how it moved that would be so in a way though that's sorry um but in a way that's almost sounds like um it's quite similar to those sort of older ideas I guess about about sort of tying people that in like having people spreading with the language around in the same time in that sense yeah I mean because the archaeological evidence seems to suggest that the people moved with the language um because the we're seeing the archaeology appearing I think it's just that one part that circle I show around what was called the water stone back in that's a pretty um around that thing just north of that we've not seen the archaeological evidence and that's where we're getting the geneticists starting from they think that's the starting starting point around Melanesia that kind of area we're seeing this starting point because the archaeology is not there um and then we start to see the archaeology appearing elsewhere they're thinking that maybe that's where it came from we have a different genetic makeup or we have genetic markers that are present here are present everywhere else um but we're not having the archaeological evidence but I mean sometimes languages can move without moving with people right we start to see this amongst lingua franca right or so portuguese for example became the language of trade through much of the pacific but we didn't necessarily have portrait I mean Formosa as a name there was no portuguese settlement on Taiwan but Taiwan was named Formosa in portuguese right that's because that was the language sort of being spoken on the Dutch ships I mean the Dutch ships didn't necessarily have Dutch people and this again these are modern sensibilities to sense that our ideas of the of the nation today is very different wars were not so like the Napoleonic wars were not just British soldiers fighting French soldiers they were French soldiers fighting French soldiers because the British armies were somehow paying more I mean this modern sensibilities needs to be often needs to be corrected and I think this this is the case in point here but what we do see in terms of the language movements is there is archaeological evidence to suggest that they are at least people moving with that language yeah thank you very much for your engaging talk and also thanks to Jenna and because my question is quite uh related to your second question so um I'm wondering whether there is really post-colonial studies in Taiwan because if we admit that it means colonialism really ends in Taiwan and let's go back to your categorization of different types of colonialism you use 1987 as an end or the colonialism and it makes out this type and usually we say the end of colonialism means a colony either topples the colonial regime and gains its political independence or becomes colonized by a new colonial regime but in 1987 none of the situation took place rather what took place in 1987 was the end of martial law or namely the beginning of democratization but so are assuming that democratization as the end of colonialism if yes do you think it's possible for a country or a regime to be both democratic and colonial at the same time so personally my answer was no but uh after I started studying graduate school at the in the US my answer becomes yes it's definitely possible okay thank you Ali again my response would be similar to Jenna's I I don't have a very strong opinion on putting in 1987 it was just a marker to kind of end that kind of thing and I've just used um I've just used the martial law and the end of martial laws a bit of of something in excess because we did I mean democratization did bring change right but I wouldn't I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you put the question on postcolonial thought I mean one thing we could turn around and say is that we saw significant change in 2004 with the sunflower movement right and one possibility about what one one reason in which we can look at the sunflower movement as being a cause that is a shift from ethnic nationalism to civic nationalism but I wouldn't necessarily say it depends on who we're referring to as being the colonial overlord right um if we're talking about it in relations to the republic of China then of course then that didn't end in 1987 it depends on what angle we're actually looking at right so I don't disagree I don't have it's not a point of thing I'm trying to say that 1987 so I don't disagree with you but I do I don't think that there is a post colonial discussion so to speak in Taiwan but I do think that there are discussions on postcolonialism I don't I think I feel that there is discussions of postcolonialism but I don't necessarily know that we are in a postcolonial period I don't think we are um but it's not as if people aren't engaging with it as a discussion whereas a discourse I think that it are but I I don't have strong attachments to my 1987 label and I don't disagree with what you're saying yeah so it's not it's not an important mark for me it was just a case to kind of end but Adam did you have a question because I was there and I had a message from behind that you had a question but really I mean I have questions but I wasn't going to ask one I think you had a actual question hello um I was just curious um when you're working in indigenous studies and anything surely I mean you're cognizant that whatever conclusions you reach and whatever direction you're going in are either in sync or not in sync with sort of political desires by other parties right and as an academic of course you want to sort of follow whatever truths you yourself can come up with but when you start for example orienting Taiwan towards austronesia you know austronesian lands right that plays into a certain sort of political narrative of Taiwan which was not in your talk and which you may or may not agree with or what have you but just as a practicing academic my question is when you're pursuing your research how much do you think about well this does seem to work awfully well or not well with what say the Taiwanese state is trying to accomplish and distinguishing itself from mainland China you know something like that yeah that I understand what you mean I think I mean for me on my perspective as an academic is that I feel like for example I'll give you something so Asia Pacific Studies is our program okay now that is a very hero-centric thing to look at right in terms of Asia Pacific right um a very political one today would be Indo-Asia Pacific so all these things east Asia they all have north east Asia they all south east Asia they all have physical connotations right um but we need to have a certain marker of an area in order for us to have it as a degree program and typically degree programs are run by your attractions for students so you have the sexier it sounds the better it is and I think we're moving away from the concepts of east Asia I think we're moving away from that and that's largely to do with rise of vietnam like if it's vietnam in east asia words vietnam in southeast Asia what does it mean to be southeast Asia and so um for me personally I think looking at this and framing it this is a part of a western pacific or is a pacific I think is important because it also opens up the position of japan because japan somehow hasn't found a narrative in the post in my opinion hasn't really found a narrative in the post war period it's not at war anymore and um and I feel that looking at this within a pacific concept just for me it just answers or it asks different questions and I think that's the point it's not I think the reason why I I do it is to ask different questions on on Taiwan right I want to I want to look at Taiwan outside of being framed within an east asian narrative but rather to explore it differently because I think you come to different conclusions that may or may not be the right conclude but there leads to conclusions that can be opened up it gives a different level to the debate and that's what I think so it starts to then when you start looking at it as a pacific then you start to include it in a narrative of the philippines for example and that connection his closest neighbor is the philippines right and that's interesting right um but when we if you talk about it in an east asian and a southeast asian context we don't think about Taiwan's closest neighbor is the philippines right we talk about Taiwan's closest neighbor as being china but that's not his closest neighbor right his closest neighbor would be the philippines in japan and I think that raises an interesting thing for me okay we've almost run out of time and we have quite a short coffee break so we're gonna have to take one very quick last question go ahead very wonderful speaking I just want to show maybe some sorry or maybe this is not a question because in Taiwan the abridger culture always has some kind of special talent so actually so many music stars are from the tribe are from bulu so I think I'm just wondering is it possible because they have to go to the city and they can show that talent and sometimes you can see some interesting story they always go back to their bulu try to protect their own culture so I think maybe the story about the music or maybe about the sports are sometimes very good example for you because many years ago when Chen Zhui didn't become president he invited someone who he made to sing the the song in in the national ceremony and um I may face some kind of difficulties because she cannot go to China anymore okay yeah so I think sometimes it's quite easy but now there's another very famous star Aline is a very famous female star she went to China and very famous because she attended the I'm a singer the biggest TV program in China so I think this kind of story maybe it's kind of attractive if you can try to show in your articles and Taiwanese people will like to read this and I'll look forward to this kind of that's if I could just quickly very okay yes respond to that and that links in today being World Cup and I think one of the biggest things that we often have to remember is the appropriation of the Amisong for Italian I do right um that was stolen by Enya and I think that kind of discussion is tends to be made and is linking back to that so um very interesting also on sports is that the part of the work that Shani Museum does is that annual poster competition for university students across Taiwan and one of the projects I've been involved in for the past three years is to have that exhibition exhibited within the UK and then this year we will have um we will have it again but I will be inviting the winner to come and talk about that but the theme of that is sports and movements and within the indigenous so that kind of thing is coming out and it does feature in my work so have no fear Nikki's here right thanks very much okay so let's thank Nikki one more time