 So welcome I know that we're sort of working into the first hour after lunch So there's going to be some bonking here, so we'll try and keep it lively I'm a Nick Schmidel. I'm a former fellow here and Staff writer at the New Yorker, and I'm going to be moderating a panel today. We have one change Chief of DC Chief of Police Kathy Lanier was not able to join us, but in her stead. We have the very very able Matthew Bromeland We also next to my immediate left is Roy Austin who is from the White House's Office of Urban Affairs and To the far left we have Robbie Chaudhry who is an attorney a fellow at New America, and you may know her best from her involvement with cereal amongst other things so We're gonna talk about Community policing Criminal justice sort of building off of the previous conversation We'll talk for about 15-20 minutes and see if there are questions and then kind of go from there I think that we can probably all agree that it's been a fairly bad year for police Or at least a very fairly bad year for for Those in the communities who have been affected by a number of incidents So the first question is sort of is is is for Matthew and for Roy, which is that our There are there are there more episodes now than in previous years of Police misconduct, or are there more cell phones that are capturing these episodes? Whoever's ready, sorry You know I would actually go with that. They're more cell phones Because I've been doing civil rights work with law enforcement since the mid 90s When I was with the Civil Rights Division as a prosecutor and we went around the country prosecuting hate crimes and police brutality cases and There's no metric that I can see right now that tells me that anything is particularly different now than it was before Other than the fact that we are actually seeing what's happening and I think President Obama in his comments. I believe they were post Ferguson Noted something that you know people need to you need to recognize that in many of these cases people are not making this up That racial Profiling and issues between community and police have been happening For a long time, but it was always kind of this He said he said or he said she said or she said he said depending on the gender of the officer Thing that was happening and no one could actually tell the story in a way that people would believe it and suddenly now we have Video, I mean what has happened in so many communities is not New this lack of trust that we sometimes see between police and the communities this is something that's been around for decades and You know and you ask any African-American male about their interactions with police no matter what their Status in life is and they will tell you that they've had some Incident with the police that was very uncomfortable And so I have to go with the it's really that people are now seeing it through cell phones and Increasingly dash cams and body cams so just just by way of also a quick introduction Matthew has been an advisor to to Chief linear for the past seven years since since she came in as chief Yeah, I've worked directly for her for about seven years and I apologize that I know that you were all expecting the six foot Blonde with a gun, but unfortunately Certainly she has a much more compelling story than I do But I will do my best to represent her and and the department as a whole I think that my perspective is certainly more different than what the chief Perceives in her position as being the head of the police department. I'm a more of a behind-the-scenes Policy and projects type of person, but I think in terms of kind of the things that it's given me a different perspective and I would agree With mr. Austin in terms of I don't I don't think that there's there's certainly More instances of these types of things occurring I really think it is just the the the ability by which When something does happen how quickly it can spread across the country or across the world for that matter it's kind of the globalization of Kind of the issues and the challenges that I think are are facing police and I certainly think I don't know if I'd say it was Necessarily a bad year for police, but I would certainly say it was an incredibly difficult and challenging year for police But I think that part of the part of the reason why I'm in this business and I was talking to mr. Austin and miss Charlie the part of the reasons that we're in this business is because we we want to face those difficult challenges we want to try to change and Make improvements in both policing and the and the way that we interact with the community You mentioned that sort of you no longer have to hear sale here sale has been taken out of video I mean it's obviously somewhat cliche to say that that you know that video is kind of democratized But but honestly there was that moral high ground that was offered by a badge And in a dispute over what happened that is that is no longer there Robbie what are you? sort of having watched and listen to the debate What do you what do you think is missing from the debate over the course of the past year? What what has not been discussed? That that that should have that should be First let me just say thank you for having me and I also apologize for not being a six-foot blonde with a gun I mean I think what to me really has been missing from this and you know I You know my relationship to this particular conversation on police brutality as it relates to black Americans is Tangential because my my involvement really has been with community relations with Muslim American communities in the context of counterterrorism and CBE But so as kind of an outside observer I would Right countering violent extremism Is that I don't see a lot of discussion about the culture of policing? And I feel like you know for me, you know when we examine like why certain Pathologies exist, you know in certain Institutions or communities or regions or anything we try to kind of look at what are the what are the root causes here? What are the cultural issues here, and I feel like so to me? I mean I'm much more interested in finding out What what is this core element of? treating certain minority groups with a level of disrespect And also In a I mean the power dynamics are so clear right that when you it seems to me that if once you Obtain when you get a badge you feel like you have a certain level of power over other people And so the idea of being a public servant has gone out the window There's that and I'm also really concerned about accountability issues. You know part of the Concern of communities is that even when there's clear police brutality, you're not getting accountability You're not getting it in the courts, and you're also often times not getting it from the institutions You don't get these you know and a public apology. You don't get rest you don't you don't get any kind of Healing between the community and the institution it just becomes a standoff Well or in the case of of as we've seen with the mayor of New York When you do take a position that sort of is is is a strong position of sympathy or empathy with the community It has backfired within the police force and so there seems to be a Very fine line to walk there. How have you all? Sort of what have you all done to try and both preserve the trust of the community will also present sort of Preventing a mutiny within the police force Yeah, I think that's a difficult I mean certainly in terms of and let me let me be clear the chief is obviously more than just the six foot block the gun So I just want to make that clear She's somebody that I respect very highly and I think that in terms of kind of how deliberate she's been in terms of engaging the community and then also What you don't see behind the scenes how deliberate she's been in engaging the members of the department I mean we talk about kind of the cultural aspects of policing and kind of the modernization of policing and the Professionalism within within the profession itself and I think that one of the things that she's been trying to do And that I've been involved in and some of her other staff members is kind of engaging internally You know what what do we do as a group to identify kind of these issues that and the challenges that we're trying to face And what are the things that we can do to together? Kind of bring us up that to that next step so that continual improvement You've been there for seven years have there been you've been sort of part of these these War council meetings. I'm sure a number of occasions There has to have been an episode or two that had Ferguson-like potential in DC and I wondered I mean I'm obviously speculating but a Can you confirm that there have been an episode of to Describe what happened and describe sort of what you all did to prevent it from from taking on a growing out of it I'm trying to rack my brain for any specific incident. There's probably a few certainly that could have I Guess erupted a potential for erupting into something in terms of the community as a whole Against the police so to speak but I think again and it goes back to some of the kind of just the chief's approach and the things that she's Kind of the strategies that she's tried to employ in terms of very very very deliberate In terms of her connection with the community how we engage the expectations that she sets for the members of the department Not just the officers, but obviously all of her all of her employees We all engage with the community on a regular basis and I think by having though those relationships that positive constructive relationship from the get-go It says a lot when something does when something difficult does occur or an incident may happen that there's a there's There's an opportunity and kind of a patience and an understanding to allow us to have that dialogue so that it doesn't just become an instant Can you give us an example of I mean we hear engagement and you think sort of you know bake sales Like what is what is engagement mean on a day-to-day? Can you give us an example of kind of what is a current initiative that's being done? I think that you know the example that the that the chief always talks about is just the idea of the The standard foot patrol officer that's out there who knows everybody on their blog Who says hi to the everybody on their street knows everybody within the neighborhood knows knows the guys on the corner Knows the young family that just moved in on the other side of the street knows the woman the matriarch of the neighborhood who's been there for 70 years and That's the example that she uses on a regular basis in terms of you know before you know the community believes that You know the police are coming in to take action and then leave that's not the way that it should be it should be about having those Relationships ahead of time so that when something does happen You've already established that relationship and those people the members of the community have faith and trust with the members That they see out there on a daily basis. Yeah, please prior conversation was was very interesting because there's part of it where they were talking about International tribes and the need to ask them what they need For change when it came to I believe in this case it had to do with something with with childbirth or pregnancy We're not that different and I go to say we're not different The police department is a culture The civil rights advocates the communities are a culture that if you don't bring them to the table and ask them What they want that no matter how beautiful your policy may look on paper No one's going to accept it and so what engagement is and we did this I was involved in an investigation of the New Orleans police department for patterns or practices of violations of the Constitution Here's a police department that was broken before Katrina broken during Katrina broken after Katrina and The officers knew it. I mean this wasn't a surprise to them But if we just came in there and said this is what we're going to do And here's our list of things that you have to do differently. They it would have never been accepted What we did immediately is we sat down with as many of them as possible And you put them in a small group away from the lights and the cameras and everybody else and you ask them What's going on with your department? What can we do to fix it? They will be incredibly honest with you This is what we need. We need better training. We need clearer policies We need officers who do wrong to be held accountable. We need real supervision out there They know it. And so what engagement is there is Bring them to the table have that conversation and then you're gonna have buy-in when you present them with what happens I wouldn't just one real quick story from that whole thing is Just showing the power of culture. We said right away, you know officers should not be receiving cash For doing their job and in New Orleans you had this system where officers would receive cash for Escorting people to feud or rolls or to weddings So we had the chief institute that right away chief said great We'll we'll institute that went back like two weeks later and said chief how's that going? He said, you know Let me tell you they're not taking cash anymore, but now they're asking people for checks written out to cash I Mean it was a culture there that and and we just that was what we were up against and that's why you know Change being slow is real because this is how people have lived their lives generation over generation as to how law enforcement should Should work there was a piece in the Atlantic last week about the the myth of police reform and it was talking I mean essentially saying that we're expecting we're expecting police officers to be law enforcement We're also expecting them to be community outreach. We're expecting. There's almost like a mission creep that we criticism of police officers And mission creep similar to the one that's been levied against the US military US military is Can can deliver aid faster around the world after a design after that for than anyone else But should they be delivering aid and I think that's the question I sort of wonder How much How much can police reform be affected sort of within by by police officers or is there you know And I'm and I'm remiss to get into a big conversation about grand strategy, but the How much of that needs to be wrapped up into other? Other offices and initiatives that may not even exist at this point I Real quickly I mean you're not going to change based on you alone deciding I need to change Okay, they're going to be outside people who are going to have to tell you and work with you And it's going to have to be acceptance by you of this and it's going to be that the officers really and truly hear it From the outside so it's both and so in the president's task force on 21st century policing the I think it's the very first recommendation is Basically move from the warrior mentality to the guardian mentality is what it says And so police officers have to start to believe that they are parts of the communities that they're there to police Not that they are the invading forces that are going in there to save the community But this is actually their community Well, this isn't going to happen by a police officer waking up one day and say okay I'm going to be a guardian now and not a warrior anymore It's got to be the police officer to sign they want to do it But it's also got to be all of the civilians deciding that that's what they want It's going to have to be the business community deciding that that's what they have to be It's going to be the entire community Deciding that that's what we want our community to look like for it to actually change Rob. Yeah, what about What have you seen in the past 14 years? Have you seen an evolution? Whether it's in sort of awareness and knowledge by law enforcement of concerns and considerations in the Muslim American communities Or is it have you been encouraged by what you've seen at all in terms of? I mean not necessarily What's happened in the last 14 years is that you know local law enforcement is getting Just like you mentioned mission creep I mean they're expected more and more to not just do their regular job, but also to be aware of Things like violent extremism and counterterrorism and all these things a lot of time They like I you know I started a firm called safe nation collaborative to be able to provide training for law enforcement officers on a local level to work with American Muslim communities in a respectful way, so they actually know one another I mean it's important to understand you know the the culture and the needs of a law enforcement institution But also the community like who are these people and what are their needs and what are their concerns or what are their histories? With the American Muslim community, you have a really large population that are Immigrants right like I'm a second generation immigrant a lot of times these are people who come from countries where law enforcement is an extremely Extremely corrupt institution if people are terrified of it You know I mean I remember my father once had to go to once and his life had to go to court for traffic violation He was terrified. He wanted me with him as an attorney. I said this is not Pakistan, you know, you'll be fine So, you know, so they have to also understand the community But what I've seen is I mean as anti Muslim rhetoric and sentiment in America generally is actually at higher levels now Then it was after 9-11 this impacts all you know people across the board including law enforcement officers The we've we had issue we had concerns around 2009 2010 that they were like this really broad Really negative law enforcement trainings about Islam and Muslims that were just you know Terrifying law enforcement officers and security officials, but that's not what happened I mean they existed but not it wasn't a wide-scale thing What really happened was that you had more and more anti Muslim sentiment in the public discourse and media and punditry And this was being absorbed by Every all kinds of people including law enforcement officials the University of Maryland their start program Did a study a few years ago where they asked? You know state-level law enforcement to respond to what were there some of their major concerns about you know the The issues that they're facing and about 90% said that one of their major concerns was jihad in their neighborhoods Okay, it's like an existential fear, right, but they're they're not putting any training towards it They don't get any training towards it. It's just something that occupies a space in their heads and probably impacts how they're you know Interacting with the community. So this is a concern. I once had an intelligence officer And tell me when she needed when she was doing Analysis of you know these types of issues, you know Maybe some some communication came by and she needed to understand something from a bit of Islam or Muslims She would Google it You know like you know that's dangerous to Google something like that because as a Muslim if you Google stuff like that You know what I'm talking about Don't do it. Don't do it. Um So, you know, I don't necessarily see but you know, so to me it's it's less that there is an actual, you know Actual issues like you know that that law enforcement folks are facing in America It's more like a fear and that fear has been growing over here. And I suppose I mean if you think about the AP expose a couple of years ago about the NYPD spying in New York Mosque I mean that we all know about that story inside of this room But that story had so little sort of widespread resonance that if that would have happened in a different in a Non-Muslim community in the United States. I feel like it would have it would have been a much more enduring story Yeah, they've been they've been a complicated force to deal with the two of the recent shootings one involving Eric Harris the Oklahoma man who was shot by Robert Bates police officer and Bates claimed that he was reaching for his Taser and pulled his gun instead and then Tamir Rice the Cleveland boy who was shot in a park recently when a police officer mistook Tamir's toy gun for a real gun Seem reflective of just poorly trained police officers Roy, do you think there are too many men and women who have been granted the moral and legal authority to exercise lethal force? Let me start by saying I simply cannot talk about specific incidents and any specific incident is actually the province of the Department of Justice I Think I think training is a piece of it, but I think going to what Robbie had just said You can train someone to death and the problem is and that analogy was not met that way But at the end of the day people have to have familiarity and so I can tell you everything I want to tell you about a Muslim American but until you sit next to one in your patrol car and Really understand it. You're not going to change the behavior I think you're ending up with the same thing in a lot of these police departments where you have this initial fear of Young black men. Okay. It's there There have been studies that have shown that the adrenaline starts to pump your reaction is immediately one of hostility of anger of Protection and that's going to influence whether or not you you pull that gun. It's gonna influence your stress level It's gonna influence everything that you do if you have this immediate fear. I'm in a I'm in a high drug area It's dangerous. There are a lot of black people here. There are a lot of young black men here That's all building up and that's part of it as far as I'm concerned was leading to some of these incidents and until you actually understand that 90% of these communities are just people who you know 99% of these communities are just people who want to live their lives Are just as concerned about the violence as you are You're not going to behave in a way that's going to ensure that you don't end up with these really tragic incidents time and again So this seems like a good point to sort of to the pivot to body cameras Chief linear as has shown an acceptance to adopt body cameras But in light of that first question about whether these instances of police misconduct are more rife now or whether it's just the fact that There are cameras everywhere can Can the community can the sort of can the communities? Survive the publication of so much awfulness if there in fact are now body cameras capturing all of these episodes that have Just simply been sort of swept aside. Maybe over the course of the past deck few decades Well, I think there's a well, I guess the first part of that question I think there's There's an underlying assumption then the way that you position that question that there it will capture more Incidents such as such as that were that we're discussing I don't know if that's necessarily true I think that The cameras in and of you have to remember that at least in Washington DC And that's all I can really speak for right now is that you know our officers We have hundreds and hundreds of officers on the street in any given time And they are having thousands of interactions with the the citizenry on a daily basis and ninety nine point nine percent of those interactions are innocuous they're You know, it might be somebody just greeting somebody it might be somebody following up on a complaint It might be somebody taking a report. It might be somebody comforting a victim So I think that you know and the chief has said this that the cameras. They're not a silver bullet They're not going to be a silver bull. I mean they're not going to solve everything They're still you know, even when there's video. There's going to be Discussion and discourse in terms of and probably disagreement over how that's perceived But I think that the cameras in and of itself You know what we're trying to see is if if they're going to you know Change the way that people interact with one another for the better And I think on a whole that you know what we're seeing in terms of some of the pilot parts of it That's the case. So when in terms of accountability I Mean as the Eric Garner episode showed, you know, the whole thing's captured on camera and yet you still have a grand jury That's not willing to indict I know you can't talk about specifics, but There every every every police shooting in the district is reviewed by by the US Attorney's Office Roy Is there is their appetite and capacity? For US Attorney's offices around the country to take on every police shooting and review it That happens at a state and local level. Well, there's absolutely not capacity. There are approximately 1,000 fatal police shootings every year These investigations I've been involved in a lot of them including in Washington, DC You you simply the amount of time that it takes to look at every thing the every witness Every piece of evidence that is involved with these is is is enormous But you do need to figure out who's going to do that and I think as the again the task force in 21st century policing talks about Taking it out of the department and having some outside agency being the one to look at it Not only you know and that's not to say that internal affairs in the departments aren't going to get it right But people don't feel like it's an honest investigation if the people who are involved in it are part of the same force And so departments need to team up with outside departments and say hey If we have a fatal shooting will you be the ones to look at this thing and that's going to give at least people some trust in the process And I think that's an important piece of this the I feel most I feel like the sentiment generally is the body cameras are a good thing in the Muslim American communities I suspect it's interpreted a little bit different. There's a little bit of a surveillance You know undertone to it. Do you think that that the Is it as widely accepted as your sentence is widely accepted in the Muslim American communities as it is elsewhere Oh, I think absolutely because I mean a body camera means that you are having a face-to-face interaction with a law enforcement officer Which is much more welcome than never seeing them but knowing they're watching you because that's what's happening in the American Muslim community So the surveillance issues don't are very different than than you know any kind of concerns related to body cameras necessarily And that's you know one thing that a lot of people especially Muslims working with government and policy level want to encourage Muslim communities to be more open to working with law enforcement getting to know them You know taking away the security kind of the securitization of that relationship And so if they're they're working face-to-face with a body camera, I think they'll be just fine with it The The former office that you were with the Department of Justice had I think in 2013 found a pattern of excessive police force in the Miami Police Department There was an almost identical finding from the Department of Justice about the same police force 10 years earlier Who who who does that where's the accountability there? Is that is that the lack of I mean with the Department of Justice? If they are not prosecuting and they're just coming to findings do these things have any teeth? Yes, so I Can't speak to the earlier one because I wasn't involved in that one I can I can talk a little bit more about about what we did more recently and The differences is the and this is really under Tom Perez who's now Secretary of Labor and Eric Holder's leadership is a real push to to consent decrees and real agreements As opposed to the past where we'd make our findings and there would be some kind of agreement between that party and maybe the Department of Justice that was largely Unenforceable to having an independent court being the one and bringing on an independent monitor to be the one So that's what we did in New Orleans. That's what we've done in Portland and Seattle and East Haven Connecticut and in numerous places around the country So not only did we bulk up the program, but we made the requirements even more strict But let me just say one thing though that we that has to be made clear police officers do have a hard job There's some awful awful crimes that happen that police officers have to have to address And so we have to keep that in mind At the same time because we will be the first ones to call the police when something horrible is happening And if we don't put some trust in them Then that's gonna make that more that much harder for them to do the things that we're asking them to do So this is a balance and you have to find that balance and you have to Believe that the men and women who choose to be police officers both want to and can do the right thing More often than not right right, but I suppose I was asking because I had spent some time last year in Chicago doing a story that involved a number of Chicago police officers who come under heavy long-term allegations about police misconduct And it wasn't and there had been Cook County State Attorney's Office's findings There had been Chicago Police Department findings, but none of them had any teeth It wasn't until the US Attorney's Office got involved and indicted John Burge that suddenly people took notice And I sort of wonder I mean is that does you know the feds obviously are not a panacea to step in on all of these affairs But sort of how do you you know, how do you say take grand jury? How do you take grand jury decisions out of the state and local? Environment sort of you can't put everything in the federal hands, but where's where's the where's the balance there? I Mean I would just say The John Burge case was done by the Civil Rights Division in Washington DC along with these civil rights along with the Chicago US Attorney's Office and that's the importance of having a civil rights division in Washington DC because we were able to go into Communities and not be of those communities And so there at least there was at least some trust in the decision making that was being done You look at the Ferguson case where it was the Department of Justice that found With respect to the death of Michael Brown that there was not a prosecutable case there But also found that the police department had serious issues again It's an outside agency making that statement, which I think gives it some more trust to the public and that you know This is these are people who looked at this seriously and probably got it right So we have about seven minutes left. Are there questions anyone please They're here to help you and Then the experience of as they get older if the police pull you over even if you know you've done nothing wrong You have to be very careful. How do I explain that to my children? My husband and I have police officers on both sides of the family and how do I explain to them? When my husband comes home from walking the dogs upset visibly because again in our neighborhood He's been pulled over by the police Asking what he's doing walking our dogs in our neighborhood. What do I say as a mother? Oh, no, this is I would love to hear both sides I think that That's a question that I've been with the chief at community meetings and there's been members of the community who have asked that question I live in DC I live in a in an area of DC that has historically been a Relatively high crime area my wife and I have a place here and have lived here for well over a decade And I think that my neighbors their kids I mean, that's a that's a difficult question And I'm not trying to avoid it as much as I would say kind of the honest conversation with them And when and the thing that I would encourage any parents with any child is that you know You have those conversations early and often and that you have an opportunity to engage the police officers within your community I think that's really the key Kind of the key aspect of this Mr. Austin has probably seen that in terms of kind of the work. He's done And even this job here I'm sure that that she's seen kind of the positive relationship that that kind of that starts young in terms of the Interactions that your your kids will have with the police officers in the neighborhood and if you're there for a long time I think you know as they grow up the police officers become aware of who your children are too and I think that It all starts with that that positive relationship from the start it all begins there I don't know the answer to that question. I have a 12 year old son I have not had that conversation with him because I have no idea what I would say to him Because I've been stopped and been in those situations where you're helpless You're I mean the power dynamic is so overwhelmingly in favor of the police that you're completely helpless It's why I do what I do is hopefully to try to help some of these departments do better and hope that he has a better chance later On in life if he's ever in that situation and that that the officer on the other end of that is an officer Who can be trusted but I mean I don't tell him to run I don't tell him to fight back, but I but at the same time do you just sit there and take it? It's part of why I believe so strongly in the body cameras. We've seen it from rudeness to the shootings I mean you want to make sure that people are held accountable for that behavior though. He's absolutely right in most of those interactions It's perfectly fine and those aren't the ones that are gonna garner any press, but it's gonna be a completely professional Interaction but in far too many it's not and I I don't have the slightest idea what I would tell him if I have to have that Conversation with him, and I and I need to but I don't know what to say please I'm Meredith Wadman. I'm also a fellow with the New America Foundation My 14 year old son loves skateboarding and he and six or seven friends were down in Roslyn near the Key Bridge skateboarding a few nights ago actually a couple weeks ago now and They got to acting like 14 year old boys do I'm sure and they were shoving each other around and someone in one of the apartments Must have called the police and suddenly they were surrounded and these guys were just now granted I only have one point of view on what happened But apparently these cops and these kids were all white by the way, which is interesting separated these kids Scared the living daylights out of them saying you're gonna have an arrest record your college careers gonna be ruined and this and that and just were really gratuitously awful and My son came home and said you know now I I'm gonna think about place a different way for the rest of my life And you know I can only imagine if you know my son had been black skin And I didn't know how to come back to him and say all cops aren't like that It sounded Pollyanna ish to say that in that particular context and I'm still furious at these guys And I wanted to make a complaint my son was like no no you'll make it worse And you know I just I just left it, but it's been eating at me And it's come back to me as I've been listening to you guys I'd just be interested for any input about how to talk to him going forward about how to see how to see cops You really need to issue that complaint because that's the problem is People don't know that this is happening and that's one thing when with all of our consent decrees We put a very strict requirement that every officer has to be able to take a complaint you have to be able to put it in In every station house More and more we're looking at what technology might be able to do to make the complaint process easier I mean everyone has a phone can you make the complaint right then and there on the phone? But if no one knows that that happened Then when is the behavior ever going to stop and so that that's the problem and I get your son's position too Look, I just want to live my life. I just want to skateboard I don't want to end up being dragged into court having to tell some investigator about what happened in this incident But if if you're silent about it, no one ever knows that it happened Actually, if I can respond and I also I had a thought about the previous question too because I mean and this is it's Kind of sad, but you know as the mother of two children who have grown up in the shadow of 9-11 They have no idea what United States what it was like growing up as an American before 9-11 and before people thought of you a certain way, I've had to Basically tell them, you know teach them about I mean you teach children about all kinds of dangers, right? Fred online predators and you know stranger danger and all and this is like literally one more thing That they have to be careful about that as I have a teenager listen if an FBI agent comes to you This is how you have to handle it This is these are the things that could get you in trouble where you have no idea that you're just you know You don't even so I mean I you have to prepare them for all kinds of realities But at the same time just to cut some slack to the law enforcement officers a lot of times What people on the other end of it don't understand are the kinds of choices and decisions that law enforcement has to make And what's been really informative for me is being part of these roundtables In different parts of the country where you have federal law enforcement local law enforcement a national counterterror center and then you have Muslim activists and faith leaders and and even like college students all getting together and going through a scenario together that you know These are the a number of things that have happened How would you handle this at what point would you start to investigate at what point do you make an arrest and Across the board all the most the Muslims will make an arrest like weeks before the law enforcement officers They're like oh, that's shady. No, no, you got to make an arrest Because suddenly they're put in that position and they understand the kind of really difficult choices that so even in a situation like this I mean maybe for example, if you were to have be able to have that conversation and it's hard because I know Institutionally, you know, they sometimes can't respond But if you know that maybe there's been some gang activity Maybe there's been some violence already in the community or something's happened that caused a certain reaction It might be more, you know, you might be able to understand that part of the challenge I was then getting that response of it being explained to you, you know So anyhow, I those just some thoughts that I had so we've unfortunately run out of time I do want a last word here before we wrap up. I just want to say file a complaint I want to echo what mr. Austin said because I think that it by and I and again I don't want to trivialize kind of the the trauma that your son went through but I think it's important that Coming from the kind of the law enforcement side if nothing said it perpetuates that strategy for that those officers They believe that strategy works, right? And I think that if anything the thing that we're trying to do is try to change that aspect that it doesn't have to be scary You don't have to be a big scary person to be a police officer that it is more about being You know a friendly what happened to the officer friendly of you know of decades ago And there's nothing wrong with that even with all the different threats even and how difficult the job is a police officer That's you know, it's part of their responsibility and they can engage people in a much respectful and more You know humanizing kind of way, so I absolutely think you should file a complaint. I do well Thank you all for joining us and thank you