 Today I have the great pleasure of hosting a panel of some very distinguished leaders in the forestry reform sector in Indonesia. And we'll be talking about factors affecting the devolution of forest rights to communities in Indonesia. I believe you have a goal of devolving 12.7 million hectares of rights by 2019. So that's just three, four years from now. How's it going? What kinds of problems are you facing? What kinds of successes are you having? Thank you. 12.7 million hectares is a huge allocation. And we are preparing the proposed map for 12.7 million hectares, working with CSOs and partners. This map is including the area of production forest, which is free from permit, also in the production forest. And that area is already included in that map. What's your sort of observation on how the implementation of the program is going? First of all, I'd like to give my respect to the Ministry of Environment and Forestry for letting the policy of giving around 10 percent of forest areas for the people. Even though as part of Indonesia's civil society for us, it's basically below our expectations because in the process of influencing the mid-term development national plan for Jokowi presidency, we actually proposed for around 40 million hectares. Why? Because we know that the imbalance of land control in and outside forest areas in Indonesia is very, very sharp. So we can see that, for example, in the production forest, it's less than 3 percent of the forest allocated for the people. It means that more than 90 percent allocated for the companies. So the issue of poverty, the issue of human rights violation and many other issues happened in this area. So we need to stop this problem. The existence of the map is very, very important. And to produce the map, it means that we need to negotiate between the government and the people and also among the people themselves. What's the perspective from the indigenous communities that you're working with with respect to how the process is going? First, we understand that indigenous rights are constitutional rights in Indonesia. And our constituents also say that indigenous rights are human rights. The challenge for us right now because we don't have the administrations for that kind of rights. For 50 years already. And we don't have the operational procedure to, for example, to register that rights. So we have to start from zero in terms of the administration systems and also institutional arrangement. So what we need right now is not only political will from the president, but it's also how the president's leadership to reform the bureaucracy. For us in Amman, to produce map clearly from the field is not difficult. Now we already map almost 10 million. This is a map of rights? Yes, of the indigenous territories and communities. So we also believe that with these governments, what do you call it? Ask help from indigenous peoples like us. I think 12.7 million is not too heavy if we put it in our solar together. Not only governments, but also civil society, indigenous peoples. From our optimistic view, even we can get there in 2019 with 40 million hectares. For indigenous peoples itself. Because we already started since 15 years ago with mapping. We just need a place where to put this map and who will verify the data, you know. And that's all. And then if there is a conflict, claim there. Let's work together to find out the way, you know. You're building a new architecture of forest governance. It involves community rights, it also involves local government. Regulations are clearly part of that, but it's a whole new structure. It seems like it's needed, but is it being conceived in that way? What is interesting is when we, especially in the social forestry context, we work, we revise the regulation by involving many series of dialogue with the civil society, but CSOs and other partners also across HLON, one in the Ministry of Environment and Forestry. So this is the new culture. That is very important. Start from the beginning that we already opened. My observation is that this is a giant project actually. If we talk about the change of the bureaucratic culture, so what I understand in the Ministry of Environment and Forestry is that it has not been a system yet. Means that we have good persons, we have champions such as Viratno and others, but in terms of numbers actually, they're very small because there are others, there are minorities actually, to be honest. And there are many officials that still have different views actually. So the first challenge is how to protect even these minority groups, how to help them to articulate this change adequately. So they have to win over their colleagues? Yes, they have to be the winner in this game actually. But the other issue is that we do not only deal with the Ministry of Environment and Forestry for achieving the 12.7 million, there are other ministries. For example, Ministry of Agrarian and Special Planning, Ministry of Social Affairs, for example, Ministry of Home Affairs. As Abdon said, we cannot wait and we cannot work one by one with them to change. So what we need now is the leadership of the President because he is the one who set up the target. He is actually, I mean the 12.7 million is his target. So he needs to be responsible for the target by leading this process, by asking other ministries to do that work properly and also to ask local governments to be in conformity with this policy will. It takes time to bureaucratic reform but it is not impossible. We will put a presidential degree for the proposed area for social forestry and the presidential degree there is several ministers included in there as their mandate also Governor and the head of district to support the national agenda. It is important to make sure that it is not a political number. 12.7 is really a big number of course but it is not a political number. Now the challenge is also how to work with the local government where the social forestry at 12.7 will be implemented. So there is also a challenge to work with them but there is a hope that there are many provinces that already show their interests like West Sumatra and South Sulawesi and Nusa Tengara. They are eager to work with this new policy. This is the policy for their own people. So this is also a very interesting progress right now. Pa, Abdon, what would you add to that? Actually we are now discussing in Amman this new strategy from confrontations to engagement. But now this discussion in Amman 2 we call it the share power. Share power? Yeah, power share. Now we have it with Nawa Chita but how to make it work we need power. We start that with selfishness, that Nawa Chita. Six points, six commitments from the president. But we have to become together from the enemy to be dialogue and then work together. So really working. Yeah, share power. In that strategy that's why we propose to have the presidential tax force. Because presidential tax force is the instrument for the president to lead the process. Because we want him to do that because he has the commitment. So we work with the presidential office to put this rights issue into the core of the political process. What we are doing with Viratno and also with Abdon is to continuously talk with each other. We know that sometimes we are different but that doesn't matter because we can learn each other. As a civil society we also need to understand about the way of the bureaucracy work. Because we cannot propose ideas from the sky and then ask them to implement. If this does not happen with their organizational structure, with their authority and also tasks. And for the civil society the challenge is how to transform the ideology into practical steps that can be adopted easily by the government.