 I forgot how like just how polarizing that OJ case was. And you know, I've met OJ Simpson on four different occasions in my life. And before the end of the show, I will tell you about each of those occasions. That's of course the one and only Dave Chappelle from his standup special on Netflix, which now he's pan from Netflix, which is kind of interesting, but that's fits in so well with Dave Chappelle because he's not just a comedian. He's a truth teller, truth seeker warrior. And that makes this clip kind of a nice fit for today's show with the very excellent guy. I really like and respect, even though we disagree all over the place on some of the most important fundamental issues to me. That is Stephen Snyder, recluse host of the farm podcast and author of some great books I'm gonna tell you about. But the thing about OJ that Chappelle is talking about is really interesting in a couple of ways back to Dave. At the time I was 18, I had done a show and then a guy from the club came up and was like, hey, OJ Simpson's here. And he said he wants to meet you. I said, what? Fuck yeah. I ran down the steps. And OJ was down there and he was like, hey, yo man, how are you? It was very good to meet you. And you're doing really good work and I hope good things happen for you in your life. I was like, man, thanks Mr. Juice. Standing beside him. I don't know the nice way to say this. It's soon to be slain wife. Ladies and gentlemen, man to fuck up or you're not gonna make it through the end of this show. Just man to fuck up. So I'm really tempted to jump in with some kind of commentary about what Chappelle's saying there but I wanna relate it back to this show. So here is a clip from this conversation that Stephen and I have about Pizza Gate. Pizza Gate, which is the OJ Simpson murder trial of this episode. Here's the clip. And this is kind of similar to how you would start a disinformation campaign. I mean, honestly, if you're a psychological warfare officer, why wouldn't you be interested in this kind of stuff? Historically disinformation usually had some kind of a basis in reality. I mean, that's what made it really effective. But now we've kind of gotten into the whole Pizza Gate era where I think that this is a disinformation campaign but I mean it has almost no basis in reality. Okay, so now we can go back to analyzing the Dave Chappelle clip because the reason I think that Dave Chappelle clip is so funny is because we all know that OJ killed his wife. And then we even know that there's this racial component into it and that the jury was probably influenced by the fact that Rodney King was mauled and almost killed by the LA police and that they used that. They played the racial card and all that stuff but the guy not to play it with is OJ because OJ really did the crime but this crazy mixed up world that's how we sort through things. But the thing is we know OJ did it and that's what makes it funny. My pushback on Steven in this interview is Pizza Gate is real, that's what makes it funny. The fact that they turned it into a joke is what makes it interesting. Because we're getting down to stuff that we're just gonna kind of disagree on from a kind of factual basis. Philosophically in your approach to it, I'm down with 1,000% now we just drill into some of the data points and see where we get. So let me try and do that. Here is Pizza Gate as we understand it play in the clip from Good Morning America. It's a restaurant, a gunman with an assault rifle targeting a Washington DC spot that's at the center of a fake news story about Hillary Clinton and the close aide for senior justice correspondent Pierre Thomas is there in Washington and has all the details for us. Good morning Pierre. Good morning Robin, this case shows how fake news can lead to a dangerous situation. Oh my God, oh my God, Steven, we are completely at odds on that because I believe that is the fake news, that is the story. The story is this crazy conspiracy theorist goes into this innocent pizza parlor and shoots it up. What it's really about is this person, Mariana Abramovich, and it's about these emails, these real emails that are revealed in the WikiLeaks dump of emails that were, by the way, designed to submarine Hillary Clinton in her campaign. These emails were released four days before the election. Oh, what a coincidence. What is she doing hanging around with this person? What is she doing going to these spirit cooking parties, holding up pictures of kids being abused? The second time I met O.J. Simpson, I was sitting in the corner of the booth. He leaned over all the white people I was having dinner with and shook my hand. How are you, young man? He looked in my eyes and I could see in his eyes that he didn't remember meeting me the first time. And then he walked away and I looked back at my agents and all of them had nothing short of disgust on their faces. And the only one with the courage to voice their disgust was a woman named Sharon, who used to represent me. She said, how could you shake hands? I said, Sharon, with all due respect, that murderer ran for over 11,000 yards. Chappelle is a genius at playing with the truth in a way that makes us laugh, feel good and not alienate anybody too bad. Unless you're Netflix, of course. I'm not so gifted in that regard, kind of like straight ahead, but that's why it's good to have a ride along with somebody like today's guest, Steven Snyder, because even in my bull in the China shop way, we were able to plow through some really, really interesting stuff, not just about pizza cake, but about Stargate and MK Ultra and ET and UFOs and spirituality and all the stuff that really matters and that you don't hear enough of. And you know what that's lead into is a pitch for you to join me in a dialogue about this stuff. So you're listening now, share it with someone else and then engage with me. I'd love to hear what you think, especially if you're thinking about this stuff deeply and you're not just kind of trolling around with stuff, give me some new information. That's what, that's the juice for me is when people share new information with me that is important, real, credible, and that then I can expand my knowledge. That's what makes me feel really great. So please engage with Skeptico in that way. That's what I ask of you and in exchange, I'll give you good interviews like this one coming up with recluse. Welcome to Skeptico where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers, thinkers, and their critics. I'm your host Alex Karrison. Today we welcome Stephen Snyder, aka recluse back to Skeptico. Stephen is the author of several books and he's actually wrapping up a new book on the QAnon thing. And we're certainly gonna wanna talk about that but he published last year a special relationship, Trump, Epstein, and the secret history of the Anglo-American establishment. If you can grok that title, you might begin to understand Stephen's world. Here's another title, strange tales of the parapolitical, post-war Nazis, mercenaries, and other secret history. Excellent book, he made the rounds on some great shows on that one as well. Stephen is also the creator and host of the farm. Very excellent podcast, deep dive, deep parapolitical stuff, deep conspiracy paranormal has become the new normal kind of stuff. But what I particularly really, really appreciate about Stephen's work and the reason I wanted to have him on and we're gonna do maybe kind of a different show here is the trend in this whole topic area is so much towards conspiratainment in podcasting. And that has never been what this guy's about. And I feel we share this thing of like, well, let's try our best to figure this stuff out. If you wanna listen and it's entertaining, that's great but what we're really trying to do is figure this stuff out. So that's the spirit I bring to this dialogue. Stephen, it's awesome to have you back. Thanks for joining me. Well, thanks for having me back again, Alex. It's always a pleasure to be on Skepticoot. What do you think about that conspiratainment thing? Well, that's actually gonna be the heart of the name of my Q-book that's coming up, the secret history of conspiratainment. But yeah, yeah, no, I definitely think that's kind of like the direction we're going in. I mean, what Alex Jones is practically the new Rush Limbaugh in 2021, right? So it's become quite an industry. Well, you know, and I really wanna pull that apart because like this is the thing and I'm not gonna apologize for the level three dialogue we're about to have because we're gonna be jumping right in the middle stuff. And then for folks who are like, what are you guys talking about? Go listen to the farm. I mean, these guys do two and a half hours all the time on stuff that's just incredibly dense with citations of factual sources. Here's where we got this, connecting it with this. And I really appreciate that. And the other thing I appreciate that is that recluse and his guests are generally coming from, well, not the red side of the political spectrum. And I'm not gonna say they're definitely coming from the blue side, but they're kind of leaning in that direction. I'm very apolitical. I do not understand anyone who kind of buys into any of that narrative anymore. It just seems we're so, so past that. But I appreciate that you are in that same spirit of kind of parapolitical conspiracy paranormal stuff pointing to the other side and going, you guys are kind of completely blind spot on all of this stuff, which is what the QAnon stuff, which maybe we can even lead into that and talk about and people will get a sense of that. But do you have any thoughts on the political spectrum, where you fall, how you try and process that from a really, really high level, big picture level? Well, I personally kind of consider myself to be like a bit of a centralist. I mean, a lot of my right wing friends consider me to be a far left winger. A lot of my left wing friends consider me to be a bit conservative. I think my ex considered me to be a quasi far rightist or something like that. So, honestly, I mean, I just enjoy hearing different perspectives on a lot of things. So I mean, I try to keep an open mind in terms of gifts. I mean, I probably agree with less than 50% of what most of my guests believe in that I have on. But I think it's important to challenge your beliefs. And that's kind of something that I try to do with the farm is I wanna have guests on that are gonna be provocative and possibly give the listeners and a worldview that they're not normally exposed to. I think it was ironically Crowley was who I learned that from. Yet that was suggesting that you should read one publication a day from a source that you absolutely despised and see if you can mentally debunk it. I mean, I think that's a great concept. I mean, that's partly something that I tried to do myself every day. And hopefully, I mean, if the farm does challenge your worldview, I mean, then it's done its purpose partly. That definitely comes through. It's awesome. And it's not, oh, it's just less and less common, as you know. So with that, maybe the place to start, I'm super excited to see this new book when it comes out. Let's start with QAnon. And maybe at a very high level, give people the scoop, your scoop, the recluse scoop on what people don't know. Because I still have a problem kind of communicating with people about this. Yeah, well, I mean, it's certainly quite fascinating. I mean, it's been a deep dive, trying to get into the intricacies of it and try to see if there was actually, if it was just sort of a LARP that was randomly started, that the potentially ex-intelligence officers had latched on to, was it something that was always kind of intended to be an operation? Is it connected to the Cambridge Analytica Network? I mean, how complicated is some of the technology that's being used in it? Or a lot of these guys, just a bunch of internet trolls, and it's been massively overblown. And then on top of that, I mean, a lot of the people involved seem like they've created their own ethos. I mean, in the case of at least, one of the participants, I mean, I'm in possession of probably thousands of emails that this person has sent out now. And I mean, I think a good chunk of them were sent with the purpose, the notion that they were going to be leaked eventually. So there's already, I think, a kind of this air of like trying to create a certain ethos or a certain narrative, even in some of these email chains that go back to like 2016, 2017. So, yeah, it's certainly, I mean, in quite a journey, that's for sure. And ironically, I think it kind of made me a discordian in the process of investigating this whole thing. I mean, really you can't understand Q if you don't understand discordianism. So, but I want to crawl on top of this because sometimes we are going to lose people. The basic premise of your work is buried in what you just said, is that QAnon is best understood as an operation, PSYOP. And I always like to say best understood because I think there's another subtlety there that I'm not sure we're in sync on totally. And that's that I'm not sure that all the people that were involved in QAnon, even at a pretty high level, were necessarily in on the operation. And if that is the case, that would certainly parallel every fricking thing we've ever seen in the past, that it's always co-opted. It's always, in so many of these things, and I can't even say always. Sometimes these operations are organically fake from the beginning. Sometimes there is a kernel of realness to them and then they are co-opted. We're gonna talk about ET and UFO. Certainly that's a case of where there was a genuine community and they were certainly infiltrated and certainly co-opted. But there's many other ones. Back in the 60s, the whole movement, the whole hippie movement, the whole new age movement, co-opted, co-opted, co-opted. So Timothy Leary co-opted. And then, though, Occupy Wall Street, same thing. You document this over and over and over again in the show. So I'm kind of rambling there, but let's bring it back to QAnon and I'll bring it to a direct question. I don't know how you're gonna answer this. Is there anything real in QAnon? Well, what exactly are you talking about? Like, are there people who were involved in it, who were true believers? Are you talking about, is any of the information in it real? Like, what specifically are you asking is real? See, that's tricky. Like, all this stuff just has to be pulled apart because true believers aren't real. True believers are true believers. I differentiate between true believers and people who are real, who are drawn to a cause, a community, a sense of getting things out. So I don't have any time for true believers. Like you said at the beginning, unless people are willing to sort through and find out. I think people were, I think really intelligent people, smart people who had facts, were pulled into some of the reality that is behind QAnon. But I don't know if you feel the same way. Well, I mean, I think in terms of like, were there people who were drawn into the Q thing, who genuinely believed in what they were doing, who thought that they had good intentions, who thought that they were doing something patriotic. I mean, yeah, I think that that- And had real information. That's what I'm saying. Here, I'm gonna pull them up on the screen. Now, this is like, to me, it's almost like ground zero. Dr. Steve Pacenek. And you kind of like, you woke me a little bit to what's going on here. But if you look at Steve Pacenek and who he is, he's a real dude. I mean, he really was involved in the State Department in overthrowing governments, which isn't a very nice thing, but he was the guy. He was the point guy. And he not only wrote those spy novels, but he lived them. And the point is that when Steve Pacenek goes on Alex Jones' show, and here it is from Alex Jones' band.video, which, side note, digression, you notice that band.video, which is his new website, is now searchable in Google. Isn't that funny? All of a sudden, videos pop up that are searching. Interesting, Alex Jones' band or Izzy band. But here, I'm gonna play a clip here. The New York Times is going under. The Washington Post is going under. Simon and Schuster is going under and they're trying to make the best of it. At the same time, there are arrests being made in Florida, over 300 to 700 people were arrested in Northern Florida, Southern Florida, in regards to this illegal activity and pedophilia. That's the other element that we've been looking at. The military has been deployed all over the United States. We're quiet about it. And at the same time, I will guarantee you Biden will not become president of the United States. Okay, classic. Was it an ankle bracelet he was gonna say? Yeah, I think he did. I think it was what he was gonna say. So look, folks, because I get into discussions, arguments, debates with people. Like, this isn't like ancient history. This is like a year ago. And this is Steve Pachennick, a guy who's definitely an insider. Definitely, when he says he has contacts. I mean, he definitely has fucking contacts. There is no doubt he is well connected. And he's saying this stuff. And if nothing else, it just turns out not to be true. Biden did become president, and they didn't arrest all those people, and the New York Times didn't go under and all the rest of that. This is what drives people who are kind of anti-Q or woken up about it's an operation. I mean, how do we process this, Steven? Let me just throw it out there. How do you process Steve Pachennick? In terms of like what he's saying, well, I mean, I think actually, I mean, just from years of like looking at the UFO field, I mean, this kind of behavior doesn't really surprise me because I mean, this is sort of indicative of how a lot of ex-spooks have operated within the UFO community for years now. I mean, one of the things I've been sort of looking at is the origins of the aviary. And obviously there's been a lot of stories given about that. I mean, a popular one was that meeting in 1986 at Beaver Creek, Ohio at Ernie Keller Strauss's place who was a Colonel in the Air Force who had worked at the foreign technologies divisions for a lot of years. Now, Ernie's the one who made a lot of pretty incredible claims. Specifically, it seems like he's the one where some of these claims about the red and the yellow book originate from, supposedly there's this book that we have that the extraterrestrials gave us that chronicles the whole history of their involvement with us that the Pentagon derives information from also the whole notion that there was some kind of alien exchange program that later turned up in Serbo. There were two different sources you confirmed this. One was Robert Collins who claimed that he had heard these tales from Keller Strauss in 1986. And then Bruce Maccabee, I believe, who claimed that he had heard the same claims in 1985. And in turn, Keller Strauss claimed that he was told this by Dale Graff, I believe, who was one of the big guys running the remote viewing program, the DIA, and that this unfolded during the late 1970s. So, you know, there's a lot about this. Hey, this guy is saying some absolutely insane stuff. And this is coming from an ex-Air Force Colonel. And then on top of that, he's citing Graff, who was a big guy in all this remote viewing stuff for the DIA. And as far as I can tell, nobody has ever even bothered to ask Graff if any of this was true. I mean, that's the thing that I find most remarkable about this is Keller Strauss' claims have been out there, I think for at least 15 years since Maccabee published Hot Tales in 2005. And nobody's even asked this other senior CIA officer or DIA officer, excuse me. Well, do you think that there's an extraterrestrial book that the Pentagon has that they're using to view the future with? I mean, that seems like it would be an interesting question to ask, but apparently nobody's done it yet. So- Yeah, but Steven, if we're gonna get, we are gonna get into the ET and the UFO thing. But tie it back to, if you can, tie it back to the QAnon thing and the Steve Picenic thing. Because again, I tell you, and first of all, we are in a different, we are already in a different world, right? This conversation, if you talk to normies about all this stuff, you cannot begin to even have this conversation. So let's at least keep it somewhat- Okay, I'll try my best. I mean, the thing is, is it's like, there's been this sort of component with like larbers and what have you, which is something- Explain larpers to people just really quick. Live action role playing. So, and I mean, okay, you could probably factor in elements like from the Discordian notion of like operation mind fuck, which is, you know, a very elaborate larp or live action role play where you're essentially trying to reorient somebody's worldview through a kind of performance art or something to that effect. So the thing about operation mind fuck, which was a total, you know, offshoot of Discordianism and counterculture in the 60s is that it essentially operates in the same, you know, very supremacist as a disinformation campaign does. I mean, the way that, you know, Kerry Thornley and Robert Anton Wilson kind of started a lot of this stuff as they started sending random letters to people in the media, then they would have other people, you know, where a fellow Discordian send letters out and try to create this notion that there was say an Illuminati conspiracy in the counterculture. And this is kind of similar to how you would start a disinformation campaign with, you know, the public at large. I mean, there was the, gosh, the famous psychic spying incident from like the late 1950s where they had, it was a Jacques Berger like plan a story in a French newspaper that the Soviets got interested in about the Navy doing essentially ESP experiments with submarines. It doesn't seem like any of this was real at all. It was just a false story that was planted. So, you know, this is something that spooks do all the time. And it was kind of something that was probably subconsciously picked up in some way by the counterculture by elements of the yippies of the Discordians and a lot of these other kind of pranksters. And at some point, I mean, who knows, maybe the spooks observed this kind of stuff and saw that it was extremely effective. I mean, you know, the Illuminati, for instance, almost nobody had really heard of by the late 1960s. I believe in 2021 almost 30 million people believe that the Illuminati are a real thing in this day and age. So that's a pretty, you know, that's not a bad achievement. I mean, honestly, if you're a psychological warfare officer, why wouldn't you be interested in this kind of stuff? So I think that potentially opened up this whole sort of world to them where, you know, you're seeing this like outright absurdity. And it seems like this kind of factored into how, you know, we were doing disinformation campaigns. I mean, historically disinformation usually had some kind of a basis in reality. I mean, that's what made it really effective. But now we've kind of gotten into the whole pizza gate era where, you know, I think that this is a disinformation campaign, but I mean, it has almost no basis in reality. I mean, unlike something like the, you know, Kennedy assassination or like 9-11, you know, we can question why or who assassinated Kennedy or, you know, who brought down the Twin Towers, but nobody really questions that John F. Kennedy was assassinated or that the towers came down. You know what I'm saying? Like these were actually real events that, you know, most of humanity would agree occurred. With pizza gates, you know, with the conventional narrative that there were dungeons underneath this pizza parlor and that, you know, children were being brought out of there and sold to elites behind, you know, the back of the premise or something like that. You know, this is a fantasy. It's a fable. It doesn't even have a basic, you know, it doesn't even have any real semblance of reality. I think it was a disinformation campaign that was initiated because of the whole thing with Epstein, because of the stuff with Jimmy Savile in the UK, because suddenly you started having this damning evidence coming out. But unlike kind of past disinformation campaigns where you would try to have some sort of basis in reality to it, it was more or less like, let's just see if we can create this full blown fairy tale that's going to bring in all of these other tropes that I mean, some of these conspiracy theorists have been working on for years. And in a lot of ways it's led to a point where we've moved beyond conspiracy theory and we're now in conspiracy fantasy or conspiracy fiction or whatever you wanna call it. It's very interesting. I mean, it's almost kind of to the extent whereas previously conspiracy theory was a reaction to events that were playing out in the real world. You now have conspiracy fable that is essentially dictating the worldview to the public at large, if you will. Okay, so this is great, because we're getting down to stuff that we're just gonna kind of disagree on from a kind of factual basis philosophically in your approach to it. I'm down with 1,000%. Now we just drill into some of the data points and see where we get. So let me try and do that. Here is Pizza Gate as we understand it, play in the clip from Good Morning America. It's a restaurant, a gunman with an assault rifle targeting a Washington DC spot that's at the center of a fake news story about Hillary Clinton and a close aide, our senior justice correspondent, Pierre Thomas, is there and Washington has all the details for us. Good morning, Pierre. Good morning, Robin. This case shows how fake news can lead to a dangerous situation. Oh my God. Oh my God, Steven, we are completely at odds on that because I believe that is the fake news. That is the story. The story is this crazy conspiracy theorist goes into this innocent pizza parlor and shoots it up. Let me pull up something else on the screen. But of course what it's really about is this person, Mariana Abramovich. And it's about these emails, these real emails that happened between John Podesta and a bunch of other people but are revealed in the WikiLeaks dump of emails that were, by the way, designed to submarine Hillary Clinton in her campaign. These emails were released four days before the election. Oh, what a coincidence. But they did play a note with Christian conservatives and with people in general and saying, what is this, what is our highest aid to the Hillary Clinton campaign, John Podesta? What is she doing hanging around with this person? What is she doing going to these spirit cooking parties, holding up pictures or displaying pictures in their house of kids being abused? And the thing that really surprises me about your answer is that the idea that this is completely just made, it doesn't have any connection to any real events, is just easily kind of countered. I interviewed this person, Annika Lucas, who is a real person who was sold by her mother into a satanic ritual abuse cult when she was six years old. And she tells the whole story. And she's not lying, because she was sold, she was in Holland and she was sold into the Deutro cult, right? And that was in the papers. And the kids, you'll see them if I scroll down here, were locked in these cages and the kids actually died because they arrested Deutro, although he never really faced any serious charges. And they went and found the kids who had died because he hadn't come back to feed the kids. And Annika Lucas' testimony is completely in sync with that. And she talks about being a young child and being brought to these castles and identifying leaders, major leaders in Europe. But you know, even you have Bryson on all the time, John Bryson, I mean, he'll tell you the McMartin preschool thing and all these things, or the Franklin thing, those kids talk about going to these big mansions, going to all this. So I just don't know, to me, you're kind of totally falling for the head fake here. And the head fake is that people were upset about Pizzagate because of the satanic emails that were directly connected to Patesta. And people who don't think they're satanic ritual abuse. My God, I got so many interviews with, including with an FBI agent, 20 years who infiltrated the NAMBLA group. But all those people will tell you that this is very, very real stuff and there's people engaged in that. So we're at a little bit of an impasse, but I think it's an important point because to me, this is the story. The story is, good morning, America. Oh my God, that terrible conspiracy theorist and this terrible fake news and this poor innocent guy who is so deep into this stuff, Aliphantus, that, oh, his pizza restaurant got shot up. Where are we? How come we're not in sync on this? Well, I'm not sure that we're that far out of sync. I mean, I'm not disputing that there are abuse rings. I mean, I've written quite extensively on the Franklin scandal myself. I covered, you know, in my book, a special relationship. I mean, some of these purported parties of mansions in upstate New York that involve minor girls and a lot of this kind of weird eyes wide shut kind of thing. You know, I would also probably throw in a lot of the stuff with fundamentalist Mormonism, which I just did a presentation on at the strange realities con, in which none of the people who get into the pizza gate stuff ever seemed to really talk about a lot despite the rather litany of evidence that Warren Jess was running a major sex trafficking ring or the fact that the LaBaron family were providing girls to Nexium from Mexico. But yeah, that doesn't really get dressed a lot. See, the whole thing again, kind of getting back to what I'm saying with pizza gate is the substance to the allegations about Comet Ping Pong. Alex, did you see any evidence at all that there were dungeons beneath Comet Ping Pong? Can you show that to me? Well, this one I don't understand when people draw that line. It's like, we're never gonna know any of this. We're never, there's people who, you know, you went off on the Kennedy assassination. I'll play you for a clip in a minute if you want. But I mean, has there been a single, you know, child who has actually come forward who said specifically that they were abused at Comet Ping Pong? Because I mean, people have come forward with the Chateau affair. They've come forward with Franklin. They've come forward with Epstein. But I mean, has anybody come forward though, specifically who claims that they were held captive at pizza gate and the dungeons underneath? And here, let me try and respond to that. I don't think we're at the point where we can answer that question. And the reason that we can't, I would suggest, is in the Good Morning America video, which to me, you know, we've both covered these kind of things. When it is covered up to that extent that don't look here. Don't mention pizza gate. Remember, pizza gate was scrubbed from the internet. Remember, James Aliphantas became this person that should be defended over and over again rather than investigated. So the emails should have been fully investigated. The source of the emails should have been fully investigated. The implications of the emails should have been fully investigated, but they weren't. And the reason that they, and a method that was used to kind of thwart that investigation was this kind of fake news. Oh my God, look at how dangerous these conspiracy theorists are. So we never got to the point where we can answer those questions. So I don't think it's fair to say that. James Aliphantas is up to his, I won't even say it. He's up to his neck in this stuff. And he is not clean in my opinion. Anyone who goes, you know, the archive, all of his Instagram posts, all of his Facebook posts, it is not somebody who's clean. Go have anyone go look at that and say, James Aliphantas wants to babysit your kids this weekend. What do you think? Anyone would say, fuck no. So do we know, do we know if they're kids there? No, we don't. Do we know that the whole thing was shut down in a very, very just standard way that they shut these things down? I mean, yes, Aliphantas does seem to have some sketchy stuff in his background. And I mean, certainly some of the other customers that were there. But again, I just, in looking at Pizzagate, I don't see the same kind of smoking gun evidence at the specific allegations as to what was happening at Comic-Ping-Pong as I'm seeing. Why is that important to you? Why is it important to you that you nail that down to that? Because needing proof? I mean, shouldn't you demand? I mean, to me, it goes back to the whole notion extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. And that is a complete, you know what? That's one thing that scientists, that skeptics use to attack science. And you know, that is so unscientific. It is. Because in science, there's no such thing as an extraordinary claim. That assumes there's some meta-knowledge that there's somebody up there that's deciding, well, that's extraordinary, that isn't. That is extraordinary proof, that isn't. That's the whole purpose of science, is to remove us from the biases that we know we have. I would say that's the same thing in the conspiracy game. We're supposed to be removed from the fact that, you know, we are supposed to be where there's smoke, there's fire guys. Because if we're expecting to be firefighters and wait for the flames to be burning, it's not gonna happen. You know what? Like the proof that you have with QAnon, it's all gonna be circumstantial. You do a great job of trying to get us as close as we can. But in my opinion, we're pretty damn close with Aliphantus and Comet Ping Pong and the pattern that it connects to. So many of these other crimes against children. So I just don't know why we have to kind of totally pull up and go, oh my God, that's just, that's fish versus foul on a pizza gate. Pizza gate looks real enough to me. How come, how come we never talk about spirit cooking? Why do we even talk about pizza gate and not talk about spirit cooking? That's what everyone was, that's what everyone was outraged about. How much, I mean, how much play though online did spirit cooking and this stuff get in comparison to the stuff with Warren Jeffs though? Or the LaBaron family's connection to Nexium? Well, you know, if we were gonna get into, like I'm much, much more anti-religion than you are. I think religions are cults up and down. I don't understand like Warren Jeffs and Mormonism extremely, extremely cultish, leaning on cultish principles. It is, it's just a cult, it just is a cult removed by a couple generations. And I think the opportunities for abuse there are enormous. I think their connections to the darkest part of the Catholic church are well documented. I think the sexual abuse that goes on inside the Mormon church and you can't paint a broad brush, but I think it's, there's just too many accounts of that. Apps are fricking lutely. Are you kidding me? But I don't understand why people who are of a Christian bent or orientation, how they seek to separate themselves from, oh, well that's Warren Jeffs. Oh, that's David Koresh in the Branch Davidians. That's Seventh Day Adventists. No, they're all, it's all the same origins of the same cult. And if you, you know what, I get in trouble with people who are religious when I say, you're talking about you have a personal relationship with Christ consciousness. They go, oh no, no, don't give me that Gnostic bullshit. No, it's Jesus. It's like, well, you're not talking about like a physical guy, I mean, it'd be 2,000 years old. You're talking about some extra consciousness connection that you have. So now we're all in the same soup. But the historical Jesus thing, do you think there was a historical Jesus? Do you think that stands up to scrutiny? I think that's probably above my pay grade. I haven't really contemplated that one enough to really weigh in on it. But I mean, you know, just kind of getting back to like what I'm saying, I mean, it's like, okay, the stuff with the spirit cooking thing is really weird and the art is very provocative. But I mean, as far as I'm aware, you know, we don't have hard and damning evidence that there was anything more than performance art to this. Conversely, the FBI has a recording of Warren Jeffs raping a 12 year old girl on top of a temple altar while multiple of his wives watched this blessed event, okay? For some reason though, despite the other allegations that Jeffs have ranches all over the Southwest that, you know, underage girls and underage boys for that matter were being ferried back and forth to these ranches so that the church hierarchy could abuse them. It doesn't seem like a lot of these alternative investigators care a lot about this kind of stuff. Even though the amount of evidence we have of this kind of sex trafficking going on for some of these weird sex in the Southwest is a lot more conclusive and compelling, I would argue than what we have for pizza gates. And I mean, you could go into some of the other compounds like Colorado City or Jesus, you know, the whole phenomenon with lost boys that have happened or the Kingston family or any of these other groups. I mean, this is sort of like what I find baffling about this is where are all the cube tards? Where are all the pizza gate people when you can look at a freaking cult like this? That's, I mean, Colorado City is within, I believe 40 minute drive of the headquarters of the best friends animal society, which used to be the process church of the family of judgments. Another cult that also had an uncanny ability of losing children over the years. Isn't that kind of odd that these two sex are within a freaking less than an hour's drive of one another? I mean, I get what you're saying, but when I look at the amount of stuff. Well, I don't think you get what I'm saying, because we should be agreeing. See, I think when you said above your pay grade, number one, it sure as fucking above your pay grade, buddy, you are a better investigator by a factor of 10 that I am, but you are sidestepping the issue. And the issue is Christianity hold up to scrutiny or as you pull it apart, does it start looking more and more like a cult? And these offshoots that we have of it today are radically, radically over the top cults. So Jeffs and all the rest of that stuff, I got it. But the reason, the answer to your question, why that doesn't get investigated is because at some deep level, I grew up in the church in the Greek Orthodox church. And let me tell you, you want to talk about mind control. Those guys have it figured out, they all do, but it is a deep mind fuck, right? You're five years old, they're chanting, there's incense waving around, you go up there and you kiss that motherfucker's hand and he puts the bread in your hand and it's like, I'm feeding you motherfucker. And Jesus is up there and he's bleeding with that little cross. And you know the fucking Jews, they killed this guy. You got the whole thing set up now that you're going to play out. So when somebody says, hey, this Mormon guy or this Branch Davidian guy, your first reaction is well, pull up a little bit because I am kind of in the same soup with him. I am a Christian, he's a Christian. We both believe in Jesus. That's the reason they don't go there is because they've been mind controlled into this Christian cult thing. Well, again, I mean, it depends which Christians you talk to. I mean, a lot of them I've talked to kind of like to distance themselves from Mormonism and probably not without reason, but yes, I would agree though with what you're saying Christianity like essentially all religions essentially had its origins as a cult. I mean, that's basically kind of how I think the chain works, you know? You've ceased being a cult and become a religion once you've I suppose gained a certain degree of official support. So what about my thought? Cause I really want your opinion that I don't just want to rant. I know that for myself, it's taken a lot of processing to get to the point like I'm gonna say something, I'm not a Christian. Do you know how hard that was for me to say as an adult, as a grown man, knowing virtually all the things I know now I still couldn't quite get the words out of my mouth for fear that I didn't know what I was afraid of but I couldn't say it. Hey, I'm big into near death experience science because I think it shows the divinity. It shows that there is a connection. There's, we don't need an intermediary. We don't need someone to jump in with a Bible and tell you what your spiritual experience is how to interpret it. You can interpret it just fine with your connection. But the point is we've been mind controlled anyone who's going through that upbringing and unless you're really working at getting past that of course it's popping up. Of course, that's why people who play those chords on you and that's like the Mooneys thing that you guys went into. Of course it works because he latched on to Christianity. And I mean, in essence, I mean, I kind of think that's why ultimately a lot of this stuff is far more dangerous than the pizza gate kind of stuff because I mean that, you know, I mean anytime I mean you show this kind of spirits cooking stuff to I mean a fundamentalist Christian they're gonna be triggered. I mean, the whole thing is going to trigger a huge chunk of the population just because of its very nature. Whereas like you're kind of saying, I mean when you look at some of the abuse that goes on to Christian churches it tends to be minimalized because this is seen as being a part of the background by so many people in this country. You know, we kind of take this type of stuff for granted whereas I mean spirit cooking there's a certain novelty to it. But I mean, you know, from my perspective though I do have to wonder given the fact that there is a lack of concrete evidence as in terms of like what you could find in some of these other incidents that we've discussed it has to be in my mind a question of whether or not was this disinformation especially coming on the heels of the whole thing with Epstein and Jimmy Savile which is what makes it even more sketchy to me. I mean, you know, Franklin we got some good stuff out of Detro we got even more compelling stuff out of but I mean when you had Jimmy Savile break out in the UK and Epstein in the US I mean now it was actually a common thing for normal people, you know, in the streets the kind of people that I work with in a kitchen to acknowledge that the elites really do have these rings that abuse children. I mean, that in and of itself I think was a major triumph. I mean, whereas previously, I mean a good, you know 10, 15 years ago if you were to suggest to, you know the average person the street like, well, you know there probably are some Wall Street brokers out there who, you know, go around and have sex with children sometimes they probably would have thought you were insane. But I mean, nowadays I mean in the post Epstein world I mean, nobody can really deny that there's some kind of reality to that. But I mean, when you go in with something like the, you know I mean the whole thing with pizza gate where it's like you know, we have a dungeon underneath a pizza parlor in downtown DC, you know this is kind of bringing his stuff into like almost was that one movie hostile or something like that. But John's close to the whole McMartin thing for you, right? The McMartin preschool is a replay of that is a replay of Comet Ping Pong in that way one, they just the job of a Satanist is to lie, right? So I had Mitch Horowitz on my show and I got him to admit that one, he's a Satanist and that to his one of his inspirations main inspirations is Colonel Michael Aquino. Well, you guys have done some great deep dives into Aquino, great, great deep dives encourage people to check out the farm and the shows. I mean, they're professional liars. I'm not saying Mitch Horowitz is a professional liar but when you go that route, you lie. That's part of the, it's part of the game. It's part of the, if I can get away with it kind of do-it-thou-wilt kind of thing. So McMartin was alive from the beginning. They just lied their ass. I'm saying, no, there's nothing here. It's a it's a tannic panic. And again, John Bryson does got I got most of my stuff from John on that. Yes, it was, of course it was abuse. The first thing that they did is they had a three-year-old kid come home and say, you know, this is what happened to me. I'm bleeding where I'm not supposed to be bleeding. They take him to the hospital, the doctor and the next doctor and the next doctor. And I'll go, this kid's been sexually abused. But they talked about tunnels. They talked about dungeons under the house. And everyone did the big belly laugh. Oh, oh, oh my God, this is a tannic panic. Look at all these crazy Christians have flown off the handle. What happened when they actually went and searched for them? They found tunnels under it that led over to the neighbor's garage. They found dungeons. They found all that shit. Look at the deutrophic pictures that I just put up on the screen. Dungeons, tunnels, kill rooms, all that shit starts connecting the dots. So all I'm saying is when people just, I don't understand exactly where you're sitting because again, we live in a world where exactly what you said is true that the normies have been conditioned to listen to that woman on Good Morning America and the only thing they get out of this, the only thing they have, the only association they have with Pizza Gate is not this nuanced Franklin scandal, you know, deutro, none of that nuance. The only thing they get is those damn conspiracy theorists and that damn fake news. And it drives some people crazy to go in and take an AR-16 onto this poor innocent pizza guy. That whole thing, that narrative, talk about a fake, that narrative is fake. I don't know what the real story is, but which is more fake? Good Morning America is a lot more fake than the spirit cooking narrative, in my opinion. Well, yeah, I mean, it's Good Morning America, certainly. I mean, to me, it seemed like it was a big trap, I mean, to try to discredit a lot of people who have been investigating a lot of this kind of stuff for years. I mean, I suppose in a sense, you know, you could maybe draw a parallel to something like Kathy O'Brien, which also started to become really big, I believe in the early to mid 90s, I mean, in the aftermath of Franklin, or was it a little earlier than that? No, no, it's a huge thing. It's just so true. That is like, you always go right to level three. I don't know what to make of her. I mean, I just don't know what to make of her. Or I mean, Project Monarch, which is another thing. I mean, I talked to Hank Alvorelli about this shortly before he passed away. Hank, I mean, is I'm sure you know he's the author of Terrible Mistake, Secret Order. I mean, he probably knew more about this, you know, artichoke, MK Ultra than any person who's ever lived, never found any evidence of Monarch. In fact, he had tracked down the researcher who appeared to have been the first one to have released it into the public. And he acknowledged to Hank that he had fabricated it. So, but in the flip side of it- Have you ever talked to Whitley Strieber or ever heard Whitley's story? You know who Whitley is. Yeah, I know who Whitley is. I've never spoken to Whitley Strieber. So when I interviewed him, one of the things I didn't know, and it's out there, but he just doesn't talk about it very much. MK Ultra victim, when he was eight years old, San Antonio, Texas, the good Air Force guy come to the parents and say, you know what? Your son is a gifted child. And you guys did the whole gifted child thing on your thing. Have you done that yet? Oh yeah. I'm a gifted child actually. No, I was actually- I'm a gifted child, but we talked about this last time. No, I was actually selected to be in one of their secret schools. I'm serious. I believe it. I've talked to other people. You know, who else is a gifted child in that way is, Freeman, Fly, you know? Freeman. I'm not sure if I'm familiar with him. He's got a good show and he's been around for a long time doing this stuff. Same thing, Freeman. I'm telling Freeman about this thing and the gifted child. And you know, the gifted child. Epstein was gifted child. Wouldn't surprise me. He was. He wasn't at a young age, you know, thing. So, and Freeman Fly's thing, when we say gifted child, you know, like, did you ever wind up going in any programs or any special classes or anything? I took the testing for it. They were actually going to send me to one of the special schools, but my parents decided against it because of the distance between where we were at and where the school was at. I think it would have been like over an hour commute or something like that, so. Dodged a little bit. For the best, yeah. Kind of eternally grateful for that one. So Freeman Fly, for people who know him, he's a gifted child. They put him in a special room. Check this out. Again, there's no proof, you know, and this doesn't sound nefarious. You know, Kazinsky, you know, we talked about this last time, Unabomber gifted child, right? Unabomber Ted Kazinsky gifted child and then goes to Harvard and, you know, as part of the MK Ultra. Freeman Fly back to it. He goes to a room like kindergarten and they just have him memorize these index cards all day long. Him and the other guys, he goes, I'm looking back on it. I don't know what they were doing, but they just memorizing index cards. Whoa, in a way, you know, to me, that's spookier than the spookiest ass MK Ultra stories you hear because from an educational standpoint, what possible is there in what you memorize it? It's interesting, but it kind of seems like memory is a big part of this. I think they have so many different programs. I'm gonna stop digressing it. Return to Whitley-Strieber. So Whitley-Strieber is probably the, one of the best-known UFO abductees. They're his story. He stayed with the story. He has physical evidence. He has an implant that he's had and photographed it. They've done X-rays on it, but what a lot of people don't realize is way back he's nine years old and the Air Force guys in San Antonio come and say, hey, buddy, your kid oughta come in. They bring him in and it's a horror story, right? Kids locked in Faraday cages, kids being shown, animals being killed right before him. The whole trauma thing to create this split personality, disassociative identity thing, which comes up again and again and again, you hear it. And then Kathy O'Brien spins that, but she spins it in such a fake, fanciful way. I don't know if she's legit or not, but so much of part of her story just can't be corroborated. To me, that seems like a co-opting of the story. Whitley does not. Whitley comes back and he shattered. The only reason he gets out of it is because he gets really sick. So they send him to a hospital and as mom comes to the hospital and goes, we're pulling you out of that damn thing. But apparently his parents tell him that after a couple of weeks when the Air Force guys would show up at the house, he's nine years old, he would be hiding up on the roof because he didn't wanna go with them. But somehow he has programmed not to tell his parents that he wouldn't do it, so he was just doing it through this action. But the other thing that Whitley's doing is Whitley, when this whole thing happens years later, he's like trying to put together the pieces, which again is so true and does ring true with the Kathy O'Brien story is these people are kind of crushed. So they don't sound super credible in any way because they're just fractioned of what they were. But he goes to the kid across the street who was also in the program. This kid never leaves the house, dies at 50 in the house, just couldn't leave. And he finds another one of his friends and he goes, yeah, it's true, they came to my house too. But my parents said no when they heard about Skinner, you know, the Skinner, BF Skinner kind of thing. So he was able to piece the pieces together. But here's the other thing about his story. Then he went down to Mexico and he remembers them taking him down to Mexico and being on these things where there were these kids. Again, you talk about the child sex trafficking and the whole of all finders. So that's- Especially the thing with Mexico. Yeah, so that's Whitley Streber kind of, just a little case a lot of people don't know about. So I don't know, I think where there's smoke, there's fire. Yeah, and that's- I'm not trying to dispute that there isn't a reality of the allegations but kind of like what I'm getting at was like the whole thing with Monarch. I mean, I definitely think that there was a basis in reality for the Monarch allegations, but the actual allegations of Project Monarch itself, I do think was a disinformation campaign to try to throw people into false leads. It's kind of like the same thing with Kathy O'Brien. I don't know if she was a willful disinformation agent. Maybe she was just manipulated to say some of this stuff, but I do think it was an attempt to try to put a lot of false trails out there. And I think that this is true when you get into almost all of the major kind of black ops programs. I mean, quote unquote, Tesla technology, sex trafficking brings the occult. I just think it stands to reason that you're going to put out as much disinformation surrounding these topics as you possibly could to try to further obstruct the truth from the public at large. 1000% agree. With that, I'm gonna try and bring us back to the Q-tards and the QAnon thing because it fascinates me. And one of the things I was floating out to you, I'm selling to you, seeing if I can get you to buy off on it, is that there's a direct parallel between the pizza gate thing and then they storm the capital thing. And it's just a rerun. It's the same method. It's take something real, which in pizza gate was there were all these people that were really, really concerned about spirit cooking and the Satanist connection to the White House. And they bury that story by a crazy nut shoots up a pizza parlor. I think the same thing happened with January 6th. Let me tee up a couple of things and then I'll get your opinion on it. So here's the story that breaks in Revolver, meet Ray Epps, the federal protected provocateur who appears to have led the very first one-six attack on the US Capitol. And I'll play a little video for people. This is from, I just found their website and I thought they did a decent job of it here. Take a listen to that video. Yeah. In fact, tomorrow, I don't even like to say it because I'll be a resident. Well, let's not say it. We need, we need to go, I'll say it. We need to go into the Capitol. Let's go! I'm gonna put it out there. I'm probably gonna go to jail for a kid. Tomorrow, we need to go into the Capitol. I could stop it there. You know, my favorites. This is the ray of hope for me. It really is, Stephen, is when the guy he gives this, he is so, so obviously just a provocateur, a plant, a fed. But the guy, he hasn't speaking a thing. And then the guy goes, fed, fed, fed. Like that, he exposes him instantly for what he is. Did you see that in the video where the guy, the guy in the crowd like, you're fucking fake, buddy. You're not real. None of us really talk about that. And the other thing that supports my point is, why is everybody there? Everybody's there because they're not real comfortable with a voter turnout of 106% in Wisconsin. And they're not real comfortable with, you know, being 400,000 votes ahead in Michigan and before you can even count all those votes through a machine, the thing swings the other way. People were mad because by any international standard this election looked fake. I don't care. I didn't vote for Trump. I didn't vote for Biden. I think the whole thing is a joke. I think Trump is a brand. I don't think he's a political figure. Politics do matter, but I'm not coming at it from that. I'm just coming at it from a kind of science perspective where I sit and go, the numbers, if this was an election in Iran, we'd just be going fake. It's fake. You don't have a 95% turnout. You don't have a big swing like that. But the point I'm making is that that's what they were protesting. That's what they were protesting. So the whole narrative turns into, and then they stormed the Capitol. These crazy conspiracy theorists. This is a repeat of Pizzagate to me. What thank you? I mean, first off, it's just, the thing about the election with the 2021 that was so striking to me is just how open it was that there was fraud in it. I mean, I think that there was probably fraud in every US election. I mean, at least for the last 100, 200 years or whatever, if not like all the way back to the origins. But I mean, yeah, the fact that, I mean, they really didn't even make much of an effort to try to cover up the fraud this time around was just so staggering about it. I mean, I kind of think- What do you make of that? What do you make of that? I mean, I think you almost would have had something like this either way, regardless of who prevailed. Because I mean, I think that, you know, if Biden won, I mean, as it ended up being the case, the Trump side would not see him as a legitimate president. And then conversely, if Trump had pulled it out, Biden people would not have seen it as a legitimate president. So I think that, yeah, I mean, kind of from the beginning, there was always this sort of effort, you know, and arguably, I mean, it could go back to when Trump assumed office in 2016 with the whole Russiagate narrative. I mean, it kind of seems like, hell, I mean, we could maybe even go back to the birth certificate. But I mean, certainly, I think with, you know, Trump's presidency, there was this whole push to try to make it seem like the president himself is not legitimate. Therefore, I mean, everything kind of coming from the government is not legitimate. So, you know, it's an interesting kind of state of affairs and this has only been kind of ratcheted up with this just bizarre street theater surrounding the 2020 election and its aftermath. What do you make of they're burying the story? Because no one talks about, again, what you said, you and I can talk about and we're both nodding our head. Most people don't get that, they do not associate and then they storm the Capitol with election fraud. There is no longer that connection, it's just not there. Well, I mean, I think to some extent though, I mean, the public has maybe, because I mean, again, you know, we obviously had the questionable elections with W, I mean, obviously the 2000 election, the 2004 election. Obviously. Obviously. I mean, I kind of think to some extent, I mean, even though it's been sort of covered up, I mean, there has been a certain resignation from the public that I mean, there is this kind of fraud. Gosh, what was that survey that they did? I mean, about eight years ago where it was revealed essentially that the American public no longer had any bearing on foreign policy or really any kind of policy anymore. But I mean, yeah, I mean, there has been that whole sort of disconnect where I mean, it's just the elections really are just kind of a sideshow. So I mean, I think to some extent people take that for granted. But I mean, yeah, it has kind of become this, I kind of see what you're saying. I mean, it's almost like there was no reason, you know, in the sort of narrative that's being put out now by the mainstream media for them to try to storm the Capitol without sort of understanding that I mean, people, you know, a lot of the people that went there for the rallies, I mean, were there for legitimate reasons in the sense that they had real concerns about the election fraud or other factors involved in it. And, you know, and just in general, I mean, that's the big thing I think about the January 6th incident that's so unsettling in a lot of levels is just the whole process of dehumanization that's been, you know, embarked upon for the people who participated in it. I mean, obviously there were some people there who were real scumbags, Sean Moon, one of the heads of the all shoot of the unification church kind of comes to mind, Alex Jones, Michael Flynn, I mean, a lot of these same cast of characters and those are the same people that will probably never do a day in jail over any of this or face any kind of serious consequences. And to some extent, I mean, I think even the media has tried to rationalize their behavior, but you're gonna see a lot of average everyday people. I mean, some of them have already been horrendously tortured and you know, it's probably gonna continue. And more to the point, I mean, it's also kind of creating this, you know, mindset that anybody, I mean, who legitimately questions the outcome of the election is this sort of nut job, even though as you're kind of saying, I mean, there is ample evidence that this election was tampered with as many of them leading up to it were tampered with. So, I mean, yeah, it is kind of interesting to see how, you know, we just sort of kind of embark upon this continuous push to try to like, depict legitimate grievances as being like, you're just coming from this place of insanity, if you will. You know, with that, let's return to QAnon a little bit and the research that you've done, because I wanted you to tell people, I've learned so much from your show. I've learned so much from your research. And you kind of turned me onto a bunch of stuff about QAnon that I found very interesting in terms of it's impossible to trace it back. Well, in terms of like what the people involved, their beliefs, you kind of do get back to a lot of this stuff with like Michael Aquino with, I mean, General Paul Valvallet. And I mean, it kind of goes into this whole concept of mind wars and that type of stuff. But I mean, specifically, I mean, one of the things that I've really been looking at a lot, you know, was the ties that a lot of this seems to have to the association of former intelligence officers, which is again a thing where you see a lot of the people in the Q thing that they had membership in or they had addressed. I mean, obviously there's Robert David Steele, the recently deceased Robert David Steele. You have people like Eric Prince, Michael Flynn, who are addressing this. But I mean, it also ties into a lot of the people with the aviary. I believe Hal Putoff was a member of it. John Alexander is a member of Michael Aquino, not an aviary bird, but certainly a guy who traveled in the same circles was in the AFIO. And, you know, you got some other interesting people in there too. I believe actually Mary Farrell of all people was a member of the Association of Former Intelligence Officers and Peter Lavenda. And there's another interesting thing about the association too. And that's the fact that a lot of people involved in it were never spies. They're basically just con men and grifters. One of them was a guy called James Engelton Jr. who claimed that he was, I believe, the grandson of the famous spy master that the Matt Damon character and the Good Shepherd was based upon. And who had a lot of inside information from his grandfather on the real history of the government's involvement with extraterrestrials. Needless to say, it turned out that this was pretty much all of fabrication. I believe Engelton's, James Hazer's Engelton's family even came out and said that this James Jr. guy had no family connection whatsoever. And he's never been able to prove any kind of connection as well. And yet he actually got supported by people from the aviary. Hal Putoff went down and met with the whole Miami chapter that he was involved with. So, and that doesn't even seem like it was an isolated incident. There was another Florida chapter that a co-guy who ran it was a guy named Henry Fisher who eventually took over the American Security Council and seems to have been masquerading as an older KGB spy, also named Henry Fisher from the 70s. So it's kind of this murky background where you have a lot of these people like Michael Aquino who, you know, as you kind of alluded to, has been linked to a lot of strange things like Presito, potentially mind control stuff. You got people like John Alexander who did a lot of work for years and non-lethal weapons and whatnot. And they're kind of intersecting with a lot of these grifters and these conmen and this sort of enigmatic group, larpers and that type of thing. And that's sort of where the lines to a lot of this stuff get really blurred. I mean, how much of this is it a joke? I mean, how much of this is some kind of elaborate mind control effort? And I mean, is there really a line anymore? I mean, it's almost kind of the scary thing really. So just let me throw out a couple, I got a ton of stuff that I'd like to throw on the table there. Michael Aquino I think is super interesting because when I did the interview with Mitch Orwitz who is a regular on the history channel is the go-to guy on alternative spirituality but is a Satanist. And if his inspiration is Michael Aquino, then it's worth looking at who Michael Aquino is. Michael Aquino was discharged by the army because they found credible the charters against him of child abuse. And when they investigate him at Presidio, they had like 60 kids come forward. These are kids between ages of two and six. And they were able to say, yeah, inside his house that the walls are all black and red and there's an altar of bones and specific stuff. The police get a search warrant. They go into Aquino's house. The walls are all black and all red. And he is involved in Satanic stuff. He has a really weird family. Again, what are we to make of that? Again, I'm not Christian. So I'm not even sure what Satanism is. I just know there's some energy that you can tap into out there. I don't know this, but it seems to me that it's highly suggestive that there's some energy you can tap into that takes people in some pretty evil places. And it looks like Aquino was definitely involved in it. There's a report in the San Jose Mercury News about a kid who sees Aquino in the mall and runs over to her dad. She's six years old and she's peeing her pants because she goes, there's that man. So this idea and Mitch Horowitz, my interview with him tried to defend Aquino. Tried to say, hey, there's never been any charges. Again, that sounds a lot to me like James Alphantas and way like, hey, Aquino was never convicted in court, right? He was never, fuck man. And then Aquino, everywhere he goes, there's charges of him sexually, in a satanic way, sexually abusing these kids. And even in places where we didn't know about it, but his picture gets published in the paper and suddenly in Oregon some kids come forward and they look into it and go, oh yeah, he was there too. So there's so many interesting parts of that. So one, Michael Aquino, Colonel Michael Aquino, to me, seems really, really dirty. He's got a lot of explaining to do that he's never done. The thing that's really hard to, I think for all of us to process is he was Colonel Michael Aquino. He was in the military. He was rubbing shoulders with a bunch of other people who no doubt knew what was going on and no doubt were participating in it in some level. Hal Putoff is a super interesting guy in this because he keeps popping up again and again. Tell us what you know about Hal Putoff and then we'll kind of swap some stories unless you had anything else on Aquino. Because again, folks, go check out the farm, deep dive, but does anything I said about Aquino not fit with what you've found? No, that definitely jibes with a lot of what I've found about Aquino. I mean, it's certainly an interesting figure and it does kind of beg the question why so many people from the aviary became so enamored with Aquino in the latter years. But with Hal Putoff, I mean, there's obviously a lot of stuff about Hal that's really interesting, but I think one of the things that really doesn't get talked about a lot was the fact that both he and Russell Targ had a background in his laser physicists before they got into the whole thing with SRI, which it might seem really strange to people that you could go from working on lasers to getting into remote viewing, but it actually makes a lot more sense because lasers are a big component of how, in theory, non-lethal weapons, I mean, specifically involving microwaves would be used to target individuals. And that's kind of a thing that's really interesting when you look at a lot of the stuff with SRI. I mean, it's how so many of the people tied to it also ended up sort of in this non-lethal weapons research or kind of came into the same circles with that. And I mean, I kind of think a lot of that probably goes back to the notions that the Russians, possibly even the Nazis, were sort of working with ESP, that it was a kind of electromagnetic radiation or something to that effect. And then, in turn, you could also develop weapons that could inhibit these mental facilities and so, faculties and so forth. So it kind of begs the question, I mean, how much of the SRI stuff, I mean, from the beginning, had really grown out of this weapons research. And then there's another interesting component about this as well that kind of goes into what you were getting at with the Kino, I think maybe. And that's over there as well. And that's sort of the role that cults have in all of this. Again, another thing that's not really known about the SRI thing is, I mean, so much of this really came out of the Church of Scientology. Put off had been working with the Church of Scientology. A lot of the early funding from it came from the Church of Scientology. You have a lot of other guys, Cleve Baxter, for instance, is another interesting guy. He had known Hubbard since, I believe, 1950. He seems to have been a participant in Project Bluebird around that same time. And then later he would hook up with Put Off and help kind of provide some of the inspiration for some of this work that they were doing. So there is this sort of odd component to this where it is this sort of odd cult milieu that this essentially military program later came out of. And that's, I don't think, really an isolated incident. I mean, you also have a guy like Michael Aquino who had set up his own cult while he was in the military, but the temple upset. And I think that's a component that we really need to look at more are these ties to these fringe cults and some of this other sort of weird stuff that's been going on because it is a very relevant connection and one that is just not understood. Yeah, there's so much to talk about just to give people a little bit of a background. So we're now talking about Stargate. We're talking about the remote viewing program, which is one of the few programs that has kind of been, you can't say outed because it looks like a very controlled release of that information that recently came out. Russell Targ did a movie and the movie role. Well, they were even talking about it openly in the 70s. I mean, they didn't acknowledge the CIA involvement, but I mean, yeah, it was definitely being acknowledged what they were doing though. Ted Coppel, Nightline, whole thing on it back in the 90s, like you're saying, yeah, I gotta believe, I mean, my reading of it is that it was leaked at some point that that really wasn't intended to come out at that point. And then once it comes out, then you gotta do with it, what you're gonna do with it. But so just so people know, Stargate is remote viewing psychic spying. How can we look at those Russian subs from sitting in a room in Palo Alto? Well, you can do it. You can go into this systematic kind of trance, if you will, and then you can get there. Now, I've interviewed a ton of people on that thing, including the guy who just wrote the biography on Ingo Swann, who was the person who taught, who operationalized the remote viewing program. He was a very gifted psychic and they told him what they were trying to do and how they're playing around with it. And he said, hey, I think I can show you how to do that. I also interviewed psychic spy number one, Joe McMonichle, who has an interesting background because Joe McMonichle has a near-death experience. He is a spy, a like a legit spy. Do you know his story? Yeah, a little bit about it. So he's- Yeah, it was like what, it was 73 or something that he had the near-death experience and that's kind of like what it got. I'm interested in the sort of woo-woo stuff. But yeah, and the woo-woo stuff, is he's a spy. He's on the East Berlin, West Berlin border and he's in a restaurant and he tells a story and it's just like a spy story. He goes like, this is where all the spies hung out, because this restaurant was right on the border and he starts feeling the effects of being poisoned while he's at dinner. And he's like, man, I'm being killed. And he stumbles to the door and some of his army buddies grab him, throw him in a jeep and are racing him to the hospital. He leaves his body. He's now outside of his body. He sees the jeep, the jeep drives up, they find an ambulance, they put him in the ambulance. He is still observing all this stuff from the outside. This is near-death experience. He goes, he has a rather incredible near-death experience, a spiritual near-death experience, connection to God near-death experience, all that stuff. The punchline to the story or the point that might be of interest to you because you did say, what was the term you used, stuff? Anyways, he shows up, happens to show up at SRI, Stanford Research Institute, because they're the ones now doing the Stargate program. They're doing the spying on the Russians with Psychicly. And Joe McMonichal shows up and he looks across, I can't remember if it was Hal put off a Rieseltar, but he unseals his secret personnel file and they pull out of it Raymond Moody's book about near-death experience, which means to me, to us who really know what's going on, is they had already made the connection that the extended consciousness realm that has something to do with near-death experience also has something to do with this ability to remote view stuff at a distance and also has something to do since you brought it up. You know, the Scientology thing, people understand it from the way it's kind of Tom Cruise kind of popularized. But that Elron Hubbard motherfucker, I mean, that's some interesting stuff in the desert with Jack Parsons in communication with Alistair Crowley doing the Babylon thing to bring forth the Antichrist. Again, I interviewed the guy from Ohio State University. He wrote the book on Scientology. He goes, yeah, that happened. They were in the desert. They were bringing forth, their goal was to bring forth the Antichrist. That's who they were. And you gotta believe that with all these connections like you're saying with the Queeno, the United States military intelligence was not reluctant to go there. Go there in the sense of, well, let's see, let's do it. And with the justification of, if we're not gonna go there, our enemy's gonna go there and they're gonna get the leg up on us. So I'll stop there. Anything to add to that? Well, yeah, I mean, you definitely see a lot of those interesting developments that were kind of playing out. I mean, in that period with the late 40s, early 50s. I mean, Elron Hubbard, I mean, famously, he was a Navy man, possibly an ONI for a time. One of the guys that he got to, I mean, he was a science fiction writer, of course, famously before he became a messiah. One of the guys that he got to know while he was in California was another Navy man who went by the name of Robert A. Heinlein. Heinlein was a pretty good science fiction writer in his own right, too, and wrote a book called Stranger in a Strangeland, which was arguably one of the major inspirations for the 60s counterculture. There's another Navy guy called Gene Roddenberry who came up with a little franchise called Star Trek that also shaped a lot of popular zeitgeist. But I mean, you can kind of look at some darker stuff, too. The Finder's Cult, for instance, was founded by an Air Force veteran. The Unification Church appears to have emerged in the mid-50s after Sun, May, and Moon had spent a lot of time with US military intelligence. You got Elron Hubbard, as I said, setting up Scientology after he had done some time with the ONI. More recently, you could look at something like the Order of the Nine Angles, the guy who set it up does appear to have been involved in the British component of Operation Galatio during the late 60s and early 70s. So yeah, I mean, you could certainly look at a lot of these strange cults and movements that have grown up really since the 1950s, late 1940s, and seem to note that there is a strange component to the US military in all of this. So yeah, I mean, it does sort of play into like what you're getting at here. Why is it that we need to sort of set up all of these cults that have ties to the military and why are they involved in all of this really weird stuff, usually with trying to contact discarnate intelligences and that type of thing? It's very interesting. See, but that's one way of looking at it, and the other way of looking at it is to kind of completely turn it around. And that's that it's the extended consciousness realm. One way I kind of think of it is the game, the big game, and the only game, and kind of the no game. So the normies are the no game. They're just not even in the game. And then the game is like deep state, parapolitical. And the big game is like ET, man, is extended consciousness. And even though you're not a big ET guy, we'll get into that in a minute. Hey, it's, I was outside, it's the near-death experience. I was outside of my body. I was seeing it. We have no way that is so, it's outside of time space. It's outside of all that. That's the big game. The connection between that game and the parapolitical game would certainly put the big game and the extended consciousness game on a whole different level. And then I would say, because you get into this, like you just did in the interview, we'll never get to it in this show, and I'd love to talk to you, Gospel of Thomas thing. And that's the only game. So the only game is you are a spiritual being. You are somehow connected to some divinity, some hierarchical consciousness, because that's what the data seems to come back and says, that consciousness isn't just a blob. There is a moral imperative. It does pull you to do good if you listen. It can also pull you to do bad if you wanna go that way. But there is a moral imperative. There is right and wrong. There is good. That is ultimately the only game. But the big game is pretty interesting, the parapolitical game and all the rest of that. So with that, the way that I look at what you were just talking about is our military intelligence cannot resist the urge to tap into the extended consciousness realm because that's the big game. They don't wanna be stuck in the little game. So they wanna know what's going on there and how they can, of course, how they can weaponize it. But that's just an excuse. They just wanna play a bigger game. What do you think about that? Well, yeah. And I mean, I don't think it's a coincidence when you sort of look at kind of the development within some of the ideology that was behind SRI. I mean, a lot of, I mean, at least from what, this excellent essay that was written by David Donkheff and Daniel Potolka, it seems to indicate is that, I mean, the whole thing is it sort of goes into that whole concept of the newness sphere, this sort of like earth consciousness or global consciousness. And I mean, this is something that the Russians were also obsessed with. I mean, that kind of grew out of their own kind of tradition of cosmetism and that type of thing. So, you know, this is something kind of going back to the very early experiments the Soviets were doing in the ESP in like the 20s and 30s. I mean, they were all crazy, kind of like hashing out this concept of the newness sphere. At the same time, the Desharde was essentially developing this concept in the West as well. So I mean, they're kind of going concurrently with one another. And I think that that ultimately really was at the heart of a lot of this really arcane research that the defense establishments with both countries were ultimately doing in the Cold War era. The Soviets might have potentially gotten there first and it could be that there was an element from the Nazis and all of this. I mean, there have been persistent rumors that the research that the Desh and Inner Bee were doing, I mean, was a big influence on some of this kind of insanity. We don't really know, but I mean, it definitely seems like that there was this sort of notion that there is this extended consciousness realm that effectively has an influence in all aspects of our lives. And that, yeah, I mean, it had to be understood, I think, to fully grasp the implications of it. I mean, how it could be weaponized, how we could defend ourselves from it. And ultimately, I guess maybe in some quarters it was seen as the next stage of evolution. I mean, certainly, when you get into some of the spiritual offshoots, I think of this research, I mean, the kind of things that people like Barbara Marks Hubbard were trying to do. I mean, there was that sort of component that we had to forcibly bring out the next stage of evolution. And in our own country, I mean, when you look at what was going on at SRI and all the stuff that came together there in the early 70s, I mean, you had the genesis of the aviary, the movement that's really dominated the euphology for the last 50 years. You have all the stuff with the remote viewing things. You had a lot of the woo-woo interpretations of quantum physics that the fundamentalist physics group was doing in the same area at the same time and they all knew the SRI guys. And finally, the development of the internet, which can kind of be seen as sort of a materialistic form of Deschardet's newness sphere in a sense. So, I mean, that's all going on right there. And I mean, you have people like Jacques Vallet who are involved in almost all of it. I mean, I don't think that's a coincidence. Well, but it's tricky and I'm very, I want to pull it apart. I'll start with the UFO thing because there's a different potential narrative there. Let me share some things with you. I don't know how much order we'll get them in. So, here is UFO researcher Grant Cameron who, do you know Grant Cameron? Yeah, yeah, I'm not super familiar but I've read a little bit of his work. So, we've had a lot of interviews, exchanges and stuff like that. And I was kind of with him more before he kind of jumped the shark with the consciousness stuff and just sees everything as consciousness. But the reason I think Grant is important here is Grant's a Canadian researcher and he has some legitimate documents that were released through Canadian FOIA. And we believe that there's reason to believe and it makes total sense that these were only released one accidentally and two because they were in Canada and they just weren't hip to what's going on. But the documents primarily center around a guy named Wilbert Smith who was running the strange desk in Canada, have you ever heard of Wilbert Smith? Oh yeah, he was involved with Project Magnet, right? He goes to, he was the prime minister of Canada and says, hey, I've been telling you about all these weird sightings we've been, you know, pilots are coming back with. We gotta figure out what's going on. He goes, oh yeah, buddy, go down and see the Yanks down there, see what they got. So, he goes down, he meets with Van of our Bush, he meets with all the Aviary people as it turns out, which Aviary, of course, is gonna be co-opted. Of course, is gonna be made to look like a fake operation because it's real. That's how it, if it's real, then it's gonna be co-opted and faked and disinformationed to death. But the original memo is instructive because the original memo that he writes, Wilbert Smith writes to the prime minister when he gets back, he goes, yep, UFOs are real. It's the highest priority super secret thing that the US is looking into, higher than the hydrogen bomb. And by the way, this is the one thing that Grant deserves a ton of credit for picking up on, is there is a mental phenomenon to this that they're exploring. The reason I think that's significant is I think a lot of people overlook the fact that MKUltra and in particular Stargate, one of the goals of it was, hey, ET seems to be talking to us telepathically, all the contact we have is telepathic. We need to start understanding this extended realm because that's what's up, that's what's going on. It points to the reality of that. The other thing that points to the reality of that is of course, the testimony that we have of thousands and thousands of people who've come forward and said that they've had direct contact sightings and you have people with multiple witnesses and all that. And it just, I wanna stop there because I got a feeling that you're kind of not down with the basic fundamental reality that people are collectively not only seeing UFOs but having contact, having multiple people witnessing the same contact, having Travis Walton in the logging operation in Arizona and all five of his buddies go and jump in the truck because they see him zoomed up in the craft and they go, get the fuck out of here. We're all gonna be killed. They just killed Travis and they go back and what rings true about their testimony is they go back and they're gonna get arrested because the sheriff goes, uh-huh. So tell us again how you killed Travis. They go, no man, we didn't kill him. He's up in this space. Lie detector test, they all pass it. Five days later, Travis shows up, no clothes on, walks up to a pay phone and calls and says, I don't know what happened but boom, come get me. I mean, this is just one of a gazillion different accounts and I guess sometimes when I listen to your show I hear you guys kind of just focusing on the misinformation part and kind of missing the big enchilada that, yeah, we are being visited. We are not alone. We've never been alone to steal the line from the ancient alien show which I think gets maligned way too much. Sure, it's not perfect but we are not alone. We've never been alone and that's a better way to begin to look at the data than to look at it just from a, to build it up from a pair of political standpoint. The better way in my opinion just look at it as a top down. Something is happening in that extent of Rome and we don't know what it is. No, I would absolutely agree with that and I mean, that's something that I've really started to focus on. I think especially in the last year or two I think probably having enough conversations with Chris Knowles about astrotheology has probably contributed to that as well. But yeah, I mean, I'm just kind of fascinated with this whole notion and this kind of esoteric tradition of communication from the stars. Really going back to the earliest practices and antiquity really, obviously it kind of goes into the whole thing the scrying and I mean, just how much of a, you know, I mean, so many of these, I mean, almost cultic faiths that we've sort of talked about. I mean, Mormonism sort of grew out of this. I mean, the angelic communications with John D and the Enochian magic which has formed so much of a tradition of Western magic grew out of a lot of this kind of stuff. But I mean, yeah, you know, there is this sort of ancient notion that humanity itself, our spirits, our consciousness, whatever you want to call it, actually does come from the stars that it goes to this sort of process to incarnate here on the earth and that we can summon things from other planets to us. I know I'd recently read some of the works by Francis Yates which I kind of blend into some of the things that Peter Lavenda I've heard speak about before but it's kind of the notion that the whole purpose of these megalithic structures really was to draw down, you know, the gods, whatever you want to call it into these structures so that they could communicate to the priesthood or whatever. Which again, I mean, seems like it's absolutely incredible and yet would you look at so much of our modern world and how, you know, the extent to which we tried to almost recreate a lot of these megalithic structures and a lot of our major capital cities and so forth. I mean, you're almost left with the inescapable conclusion that there is this sort of ideology and belief system within the ruling elite that it'll continues on. And yeah, I mean, I do think that to some extent that is at the heart of a lot of what is going on. It is, you know, this tradition that's been with humanity since practically time immoral that, I mean, it seems like almost every significant ruling class is ultimately latched onto at some point or other. So yeah, I mean, that is kind of something you have to look at in all of this. See, I'm with you to a point. I'm just wondering if we're kind of code speaking it there because when we start talking about ruling class and stuff like that, to me, there's a different message that's the fundamental question on ET is good ET versus bad ET, evil versus divine ET versus evil ET, demons in a interdimensional thing or more like us. You know, you talked to Whitley Striever and you know, I think he's a pretty good go-to. He's not 100%, but it's like his thing is like, oh, they're just one step beyond us. Good, bad, multiple agenda, multiple species, multiple different planets, all that stuff. And that to kind of ascribe the superpowers to him is to kind of miss the boat. Here's Grant Cameron in the part that I guess we don't, I don't necessarily agree with Grant so much. Let me play it. UFO researcher, Grant Cameron. We go back to the fact that there is just experience. That's all there is. If you take a look and we talk about the evil alien. Okay, so we say there's evil aliens, that's the general impression. And if you go and you do the pre-survey, you see that 84% of all experienced just say if they were given the chance to have it stop, they would say no. Only 9% say it's evil. And 9% is not zero, but it's getting pretty close. There are no victims, there are just volunteers. It's all experience. I appreciate the distinctions you're making. Distinctions? I just... I mean, you're saying at some point we have to move to something else. So what are we moving towards? Here's the kicker and the important part for people who don't believe, like so many of the academics are humanist, materialist, atheist paradigm and they don't have to deal with any of this shit. But for people like you and I who acknowledge an extended consciousness realm, when somebody tells me, yeah, I'm abusing these kids and let me tell you, this spirit being, this entity in the extended consciousness realm and he's really into it too. And he's bringing all this power into the group and he's doing these physical things. And if I do this ritual in a certain way, it brings even more power into me. And that's my download, he says. That's my experience. Okay, where I was getting at with that rant there is that there's a whole... The UFO community is really divided on this issue, I think, if you look into it. It's the good ET versus bad ET. ET is some kind of spiritual savior. It is the prototypical God, light, near-death experience that is gonna save us. Or it is what they're peddling at Peter Levenda and Tom DeLong are peddling, which is, it's a threat. I interviewed Richard Dolan, who I have a lot of respect for. Let me play a little clip from Richard Dolan. We met with the guy at the DoD, but he's a whistleblower. All the information he revealed, well, none of it's classified or taught secret. The kid who innocently took a selfie of being inside the submarine, he's in prison. And this is the biggest thing ever, even though it happened 15 years ago. I wouldn't say that Elizondo necessarily classifies as a whistleblower. I don't know. I mean, all of these people are self-serving. So the folks at TTSA, it's not like they're all angels and they have no other ulterior motives, what they do. All these guys who are the military, that was their pledge. Are we at a different point where we've totally given up on the idea that we need to hold these people accountable? Is that just kind of out the window? Oh man, good question. We're in a post-constitutional phase. I mean, look, we're in an upside down world where what I call this thing now legal illegality. That's really what it is. It's like this legal. And so you get the point that I was trying to make there. The TTSA to the Stars Academy, Tom DeLong gets turned into all these TV shows, all these things. It's just bullshit. It to me, it's so clearly a political Psyop, right? It's so clearly all the same players. Who's on the stage with Tom DeLong? Our friend Hal put off. And you mentioned, I mean, it's all intelligence again. And it's, you know, the Werner von Braun, it's the next threat. It's the next boogeyman is ET. I don't agree with Grant Cameron because I think in the ET accounts are also, you know, Richard Dolan sitting there, he's talking about his wife got raped by ET, right? So if you want to go there, if you want to kind of throw that out the middle, if I just jumped the shark on that, if I crossed the crazy line, whatever. But man, you go start investigating those accounts and no, it's hard to sidestep all that data too. So good ET versus bad ET, where do you come down on that? Where do you come down on ET? Are you even down with all the accounts of ET or do you kind of, do you think they're all demonic and they're all interdimensional and they're all Jacques Valet and, you know, people talk about Jacques Valet. I interviewed Jacques Valet. Yeah, Jacques Valet is into the consciousness thing elves and all that kind of stuff. But he also carries around a piece of a fucking spacecraft in his alien spacecraft in his pocket that he's analyzed under a microscope and said, there's no way we could ever manufacture this. And Diana Walsh Basalka, you know, was out in the desert and she has spacecraft too. And a lot of people have alien spacecraft that is in this here, this world kind of thing. And the guy that Diana Walsh Basalka, you know, American Cosmic, the guy who is helping her do it says, yeah, I've made millions of dollars by reverse engineering some of this stuff and filing patents. And he does fly around in a Learjet and he does stay at the Ritz-Carlton and he is credible in terms of what she's talking about. So I don't know, but that's how I read all that data. Well, I mean, again, I would say that I am, I mean, I don't discount like anything other than that there is no, you know, that there's nothing at all to the ET thing other than just a bunch of swamp gas or, you know, coops or something like that. I mean, it seems clearly absurd position to take. I am pretty wary of the extraterrestrial hypothesis. I do think that there could be a physical component to it though. I mean, I do think that it is possible to summon things into the material realm. I mean, this is sort of kind of based on my own research into the history of ceremonial magic and that kind of thing, which I think is probably where I tend to look at this through the prism of simply because it seems like in these magical traditions, that's where you see the oldest references to, you know, the notion of the stars, the cosmos. I mean, possessing, you know, these non-human intelligence, isn't it? So I think that's probably the most logical place to try to start to kind of get a grasp of what we're dealing with. I hate when people go that, why not just go with contemporary accounts? Are you familiar with Chris Bledsoe and Ryan Bledsoe? So, you know, Chris Bledsoe, he's got a five-part interview with Richard Dolan. They landed in his fucking backyard and Grant Cameron saw the evidence of it and he had an experience in his backyard. He had CIA people come down all the time and visit him. You know, his son, Ryan Bledsoe, who now does a podcast and probably gonna have him on the show, you know, he talks about it as a 13-year-old. Yeah, there was a space in the backyard and the grass never grew there again and we went and measured it and there's all these people who've done the burn marks and all the trait, what do they call them? Trace, you know, they've studied all that stuff. So I'm just always a little bit leering when people jump to the magic prime part. It's like extended realm first, but if we're gonna play the consensus reality game, if we're gonna play you and I are talking, there are documents, there is evidence. This is evidence, you know? And if you wanna say the demons came down and made all the burn marks in a certain way, you can, but then it's, that's not a very interesting discussion to have because they can do anything. Well, I mean, that is kind of when you get into a supernatural realm, I suppose. But yeah, I mean, again, I'm not necessarily saying that I mean, there's not a physical component to all of this. I mean, I would just say that I'm, I just find with the whole push of like how much effort has been put into try to frame this, especially in most mainstream accounts for decades now as being the result of an extraterrestrial species visiting us in a nuts and bolts spaceship from the planet's data reticulum. I'm kind of a contrarian if somebody's telling me that this is my one option, along with it also being swamp gas, then I tend to try to look for a third or a fourth option to try to explain it because it just, that weary of official narratives on this kind of stuff. I mean, again, I'm not trying to say that, I mean, we should totally discount anything having to do with like the physical components though, certainly. And I mean, that is one of the biggest mysteries to a lot of this. I mean, you know, how is it that this stuff does seem to leave so much evidence in the physical world even though, I mean, it does seem to operate in the sense that's much closer to what we would think of as magic. I mean, I know that obviously leads into the whole thing with Arthur C. Clarke and, you know, an insufficiently advanced technology and so on and so forth. But again, you know, who knows? Maybe there's something to the, you know, the accounts from the book of the knock that I mean, a lot of this technology was disseminated to us from these kinds of entities and that was how we were able to create it. I mean, it does seem like that there is a connection with high technology in some senses to these sort of contexts. I mean, this is something that Chris Knowles has done a great job of exploring with Roswell and a lot of this other kind of stuff. I mean, it is an obvious component to it. And, you know, I don't know. That's all I can really tell you. I don't really know what the answers are to that. Yeah, none of us, certainly none of us know. I, you're doing fantastic work. I just can't say that enough. And I think the light that you're bringing to this from a kind of deep dive parapolitical, bringing the parapolitical to the middle, what you do and what you said in the very opening introduction, which I read all the time in your work, is that people want to paint you left, people want to point to right. What you're doing is trying to hit the damn ball right down the middle of the fairway kind of thing. I'm not a golfer, but I like that analogy and constantly questioning everything. So when is, when are we gonna see the book on Q9? Cause I think it's gonna be fantastic. I'm hoping soon. I mean, I'm trying to get into like the last little bit of revisions now, but I'm hoping probably in January or February, I really wanted to get it out for Christmas, but there's just too much stuff. I've still got to add to it. But, and, you know, kind of getting back to the question you had earlier about like the morality of all of this. I, you know, again, we're dealing with a non-human intelligence, at least that's my opinion. So I don't know, you know, necessarily is it going to have a sense of morality the way that human beings have, or, you know, a sense of right and wrong or anything. I don't know that you can even apply that. I don't know that we, you know, we're necessarily even capable of understanding the motives for why some of this stuff was done. I mean, I know, again, it's not necessarily the great comparison, but I mean, does an ant, you know, truly understand why we inadvertently step on it? Probably not. It just is. So. I think that's a super important point. You know, I just had that discussion the other day with a guy I interviewed, I really like, it was just purely coming at things kind of from a spiritual, actually from a law of attraction, kind of spiritual kind of thing. But what you say it is really undeniable. It's from a rational logical standpoint. It's clear that whatever you think of God is, if not disinterested, if that's too strong of a word, is that your connection with the divine has nothing to do with the details, the minutiae of your life. It couldn't possibly, this is your journey, your trip, your experience. And as we just look around, everyone's doing it differently. And you know, so I agree with you 1000% that to try and apply our puny little idea of what morality is, is really tricky. But I got it for the but in there. Like you look at near-death experience science, which the interesting thing about near-death experience science is medically, we understand that those people are dead. Don't let anyone tell you they're not really dead. They're dead by every means we've ever measured death. And yet their consciousness continues to operate in some way. And what they uniformly come back and say is yes to the morality, yes to the thing. I think most of us just feel in our soul is that humanity is supposed to do good things. You're supposed to take care of other people. You're supposed to love other people. You're supposed to connect. That comes through when, look at little kids, know that, do that. So yeah, I don't know what ET's NDE looks like, but my hunch is ET's NDE looks a lot like your and my NDE. Do you have any thoughts on that? Well, again, I don't know if we can really, you know, again, I mean, is human morality, I mean the same thing as I mean another species or another kind of consciousness. I mean, again, I don't even know if we have any way to assess that to be perfectly honest. I mean, maybe it's possible. I mean, if we're correct and all the stuff with the newness fear and I mean, it all is some kind of collective consciousness that's intertwined with one another. And then perhaps ET is simply operating on a higher sense of morality that we can't necessarily comprehend. I don't know. But I mean, I do believe that, you know, there is sort of an innate morality within humans. You know, I don't know that that can necessarily be denied. But yeah, you know, when you kind of... That sounds like a lot of humanistic dribble. I mean, what I'm doing is pointing to the data and the data is scientific data. And so the first scientific data is that near death experiences strongly suggest consciousness survives bodily death. So the whole thing we're conditioned to in school is to, you know, you're just a biological robot in a meaningless universe. There is no meaning to your life. There is no meaning to anything. You have to get past that or you're not even in the game. So we get past that, we get past scientism. And then we start asking the questions, well, what is this extended realm? The best data we have again is this near death experience. And you start looking at the accounts broadly like Dr. Jeff Long and look at the nderf.org where he's compiled thousands of them and he's analyzed them statistically over and over again, what they come through with a high degree of statistical significance is that this is what they're telling us. They're telling us it's about love more than anything else. They're telling us it's about connection more than anything else. And you can tease that out with, well, did they see that in the movie? Did they see that? And the data still comes through and says that that's what it is. As a matter of fact, the data is kind of misreported because everyone reports the tunnel, everyone reports all this other stuff. And it kind of comes through in this humanistic way. But that's not really what the data is. If you look at it and Jeff Long wrote a New York Times bestselling book and we can go read it. But I have to tell you the other thing that I gotta call you out a little bit. I think you're sidestepping the data on ET because Jeff Long hooked up with Ray Hernandez and they did a similar study of ET contact and to Grant Cameron's credit, when he reports, like he did, that 81% or 91% of people don't want the contact to stop a high percentage of them felt that it was a spiritual experience. And, but it isn't uniform, not everyone feels that way. But again, that's data. I don't know what you do with that data. I don't, I'm not inclined to sidestep that data. I've interviewed Ray, I've read the book. I don't know how you do it better. But if somebody wants to go replicate it and come up with some other data, great, we'll throw that on the pile. But in the meantime, you gotta follow the data and the data on NDE says hierarchy of consciousness and the data on ET says probably more good ET than bad ET. Like, like, should that be a surprise? In our world, a lot more good people than bad people. But the psychopaths sure get their voice in. You know, pretty good. Well, I mean, and that is the question. I mean, you know, I can only really kind of relate this to my own personal experiences. I had an OBE probably around the time when I was three or four years old. And it was a, frankly, it was an awful experience. It's probably traumatized me for my entire life to be perfectly honest. But on the flip side of the coin, I probably wouldn't be sitting here doing this interview with you if it wasn't for that experience. So, you know, the optimist in me likes to think that I had to go through this horrendous experience because there was something in my future that I had to do that I needed this experience for. And hopefully something benevolent was guiding me towards all of these ends so that I could do what I needed to do. No, that could just simply be sophistry on my part because I need to try to rationalize why this awful thing happened to me. Again, I don't really know, but, you know, certainly it does seem that there are negative experiences that go into all of this, you know, that definitely is something that can't be denied. And it's something that I think a lot of new age types do tend to overlook. But I mean, you know, in the grand scheme of things, maybe there is a purpose to the negative things that happen. Maybe it's just like it is in the real world. Or, and I should say manifest day-to-day life for us, those of us in our meat suits, where, you know, most of the people you encounter in day-to-day life are pretty decent and may try to help you. And there are some people who are just really assholes for whatever reason. But again, I don't, you know, you would kind of hope that when you got to that level of conscious achievement or something like that, you would be above this sort of petty malice, but I don't know. I don't know either. And I do want to come back because this is, there's a subtlety to this that we all have to play out. I really, really agree with the point that you're making before, because I think the churchy kind of, it's all good. Jesus loves me, yes, I know, because the Bible tells me so, is out the window. And the only possibility is that it is beyond our comprehension and invariably. That's what all the indie ears say. They say, I knew it all. I had all the answers. Then I tried to pack it back into here and I didn't. And lo and behold, that's a lot of the ET contactors say. Ray Hernandez, who had a direct experience with ET, that's what he says. And Ray Hernandez is not a chump. I mean, he's a lawyer. He's got degrees from Stanford and I don't know where else, but knew everything when he was outside of space and time. Come back in this form and it's like, dah, you know, back to me. Just kind of an ordinary person. We'll wrap it up. I cannot recommend more highly the farm if you're at all engaged by this kind of dialogue. Heck, this guy has these. How often do you guys put out a show? I would do it once a week. Man, they're amazing, amazing. You just did a thing on crypto and it like completely turned my world. I don't want to say upside down because I was never into crypto. But it was like, oh my God, truth teller, truth teller, truth teller, fantastic show. Peruse, you will not, you will not at all be disappointed. We'll look for the book. What else should we tell people about, Steven? Well, I mean, I've also got my long time website, buys a few, which you can find at buysaview.blogspot.com. I haven't been able to do as much with that as I would like to have in the last year or so. But hopefully we'll be getting back to us some more regular updates soon. And yeah, I might be having another podcast coming out here in the next couple of months as well. We'll just have to see how all that goes. But yeah, it's gonna be probably a busy 2022 for me, I would imagine. Fantastic. Well, I appreciate you coming on and engaging in this kind of grilling. I mean, let's see. I don't know how else to get to the bottom of this stuff. I mean, you gotta kind of hash out the stuff that you don't exactly see eye to eye on. Otherwise, it's just more of the kind of, cheerleading. Oh yeah. I mean, the world would be pretty dull if we all agreed on everything. So. Absolutely. Massive respect for what you do. Thanks so much for being on. Thank you for having me, Alex. Thanks again to Stephen Snyder for joining me today on Skeptico. The one question I'd have to tee up from this interview is the one I guess I started with is PizzaGate. What do you think? Pure disinformation campaign or disinformation disinformation campaign to distract us from what's really going on? As I said in the intro, we'd love to hear a deep dive engagement on that. If you got real stuff, bring it and connect with me. It's fine to say you like the show or something like that or you appreciate it. You've been listening for a long time. I love to hear that, but I don't care. What I really wanna know is I wanna know something new. Tell me something new that I don't know. Join me on the Skeptico forum. Join me over on The New Telegram. I'll see how that works if I can really find a way to engage over there. But connect, connect with me and help us grow this community. I got some good ones coming up. Please stay with me for all of that. Until next time, take care and bye for now.