 Welcome to the Segal Center, or welcome back for those who've been with us for this really wonderful afternoon. These are three very disturbing and very powerful plays. I think you will find the third one, although just as disturbing, more amusing, more entertaining than the other two, which may give you a little relief, although that in a way makes it more disturbing than ever, ever. Abdul Sabur is perhaps a name that is not known to a lot of you, though he is one of the best known modern Egyptian playwrights and very widely produced not only in Egypt but throughout the Arab world. He was one of the leading figures in what is now generally considered the golden age of the modern Egyptian theater, which was the 1950s into the early 1970s when Lennon L. Romley and Alfred Farag and Abdul Sabur and others were creating what is now sort of the central repertory of the modern Egyptian theater. This particular play is really one of the classics of the modern Egyptian theater, not only because it was a major success in its own time and it has been since, but because it was the outstanding example then and perhaps since of the effect of the theater of the absurd on the Egyptian theater. This is what one might say this is the Egyptian waiting for Godot. It's the play that people in Egypt and in the Arab world think of as that is our great absurdist play. This is not all that surprise. I mean, Abdul Sabur wrote a lot of different kinds of plays. Many of the most famous ones, comedies, but he was a very prolific and versatile playwright. When you think about it, what could be better actually as an approach than a theater of the absurd to the particular theme of tonight's plays? In a way, although Dutchman has some features of absurdist theater, both the first two plays calculatedly use that as a way of depicting the bizarre and tortured quality of torturers and the assault of their activities and their work both on humanity and on human reason. And so this is a very nice fit of generic expectations and themes. As Salma has already said, it also fits into the other plays very nicely because it is a travel play and it is a play of power and oppression and of that kind of psychological manipulation. So I'm sure you'll enjoy it. Night Traveler by Salah Abdul Sabur, translated by M.M.Aniani. Scene, train carriage and movement, the noise of engines provides the only background music. Time, just after midnight. Characters, a narrator, a passenger and a conductor. On one side of the stage, that is in the corner of the carriage, the narrator stands. She is primely dressed, a very elegant modern suit, a pinhole, a fashionable tie, a striped waistcoat or a gold watch with a gold strap. She could be wearing all of these. Her face is suffused with tepid serenity. Her voice metallic but lined with shrewd indifference. On a seat, somewhere in the carriage, the passenger sits. He is a type, a non-dimensional man that is a man who can be described only from the outside as fat or thin, tall or squat dark or fair, though it all amounts in fact to the same thing. The conductor, who will soon appear, has a round face and a round body. He looks suspiciously innocent. I am called, well, he's called what he's called. What's in a name? A rose by any other name would smell sweet and a hedgehog by any other name would roll itself up all the same. His line of business, any line of business. We can judge from his appearance and his attire that it's of no consequence. Let's keep it at that then. Any line of business. He's gone somewhere by train at the moment. He managed to catch the last train, that is. And now that he is counting the telegraph poles. One, two, three, five, a hundred digits in boredom. The game has no appeal. He tries to toy with his memories. He digs up the rusty ones and tries to polish them, but how, unfortunately, his memories do not shine. And he knows it. His life has been color lessons. Eyes drop his days and they vanish in ever-widening circles on the metallic floor. They don't break up, however, or splinter, for nothing solid falls down. Tick-tock, tick-tock, tick-tock. He remembers his rosary and he takes it out from his right hand pocket of his trousers, but the beads fall down and the fingers reach out for them and they escape and settle in between the gap between the two seats. He tries hard to recover them, but the string snaps and they sink further and further deeper still until he chases by the fumbling fingers. They scatter all over the floor, falling down, tick-tock, tick-tock, tick-tock. And a part of him he now takes out from his coat, where in history has been recorded in a mere ten lines. And a few names arrest his attention. The black and bossed letters shine on the rink of leather. Oh, Xander. Oh, Xander. Excuse me. A man is one with his name. A great man can come if you summon them back from the memory of history to impose their greatness and dominate the humble. And the humble can come back if you summon them from your memory to be trampled on their foot by the great. It is therefore better to forget the past so that it won't deceive us and repeat itself. Oh, Xander. Oh, Xander. Tick-tock. Tick-tock. He raises his voice as though relishing the tune. Meanwhile, a spotlight on the other corner of the carriage opposite the narrator reveals the conductor. He's wearing his traditional khaki uniform. Who's calling me? I heard my sleep in the corner of the carriage. I'm sorry. Who are you? Alexander the Great. As a boy, I broke in while colts. In my prime, I broke Aristotle in. When I came of age, I broke the world in. The passenger is astonished. His open mouth and raised eyebrows like the painted face of a poster. He's even afraid only to be fair just a little. That swarmy barrel and the khaki sack. Xander? Oh, no. The passenger is divided at the scales of a balance and he moves merely to help his suspicion outweigh his fear. Welcome, Alexander. Been drinking, haven't you? Had one too many, I bet? If you would. Don't you know my real worth? I'll break you in, I swear, as I broke in the wild colts. Alexander's hand goes to his right pocket. He takes out a folded whip and then Alexander's hand goes to his left pocket. He takes out a dagger. Alexander's hand goes to his butt and he takes out a revolver. Alexander's hand goes to his throat and he takes that poison tube. Alexander's hand goes into his back pocket and he takes out a rope. This, however, he feels with embarrassment and he says, Forget me. This has killed my dearest friend. I gave the rope to my friend just to play with it, you know, but he misused it. Do you know the tribute I paid him on his death has passed for a literary masterpiece? I didn't write the tribute myself, mind you, but I watched my minister do it. I ordered bread and wine for him until he finished it and until he taught me to deliberate tragically and grammatically, grammar is not a strong point, you see. My minister was ambitious, however, and asked for a province in return for my going down in history as a writer. Well, I gave him the whole earth where he lies, dust to dust, ashes to ashes. The conductor hides the rope inside his cap. The scene maybe summed up as follows. The passenger is feverish with fear and his expression on his face changes like traffic lights. Alexander has mobilized his army, right hand flink, the whip and the poison tube, left hand flink, the revolver and the dagger. We dared to, of course, mention what's in his cap because it could upset him. Nobody dares disobey my orders. Do you? No, my lord. Give me your own orders and I'll be quicker than your echo. Who knows, the passenger thought. The man may indeed be Alexander the Great, great man, though dead may still be alive. These are funny days anyway, and it is wiser to be cautious. Perhaps if I give away, he'll leave me alone, the passenger said to himself, let me humble myself to him. What do you want from me, my lord? I beg your pardon, people like you can't want anything from people like me. What I mean is, which ways your kindness inclined? How would you honor me? Would you make me a saddle for your horse? I'm bored with writing. How about an insult for your shoe? I rarely walk, though. I suffer from mumbado. Sometimes I bask in the sun and have a steam bath in the morning. Let me eat the water for your bath. Let me take care of you, rosy towels. Let me carry your golden slippers around for you, but don't kill me, please. The conductor irritably drops his weapons, lazily stretches his empty hands out to the passenger. Let me with bare hands, oh no. Please, try and get anything. Give me the meanest job. Trust me with the biggest. Do what you like with me, but please, don't kill me. Screaming about, Mr. Having a bad dream? Aren't you? Why do you tell her like a freaky mouse? Haven't you been on a train before? Oh, why do you grow so white when I put out my hand to you? Don't you know who I am? Can't you think who I am? You are Alexander the Great. My name is not Alexander. My name is Zaha Weng. The name literally means Venglorious. What is my, my Lord, Zaha Weng? You're Califly and stupid. Can't you tell for my uniform what I ask? Your tickets! Please! This is my job. Hard work. Drags me out of bed in the middle of the night deprived me of sleep the most delicious bread on God's table. Sometimes there would only be a handful of passengers scattered about the carriage like cotton sacks in a deserted warehouse. Sometimes only a man or two and the carriage would be dark, cold and breathless and like the inside of a dead whale. I would know this when. Standing on the platform I hear the running of the train pulling the lights off and the frosty window panes with human no human head. I get on all the same and I search all the carriages. It's my dude. You see? I feed all the seats and stare into the dark. Sometimes I turn the seats upside down. Sometimes I kneel down to see what's under it. Sometimes I plunge my knife into the inside of it. Indeed! I can't allow anyone to be on without a ticket. Have you calmed down yet? Your ticket please. Passengers forgets where he has put his ticket. He searches his pockets one after another but finally finds it in his hand. Ticket? I almost swear and solve. Yeah, this means you're a good man. Do you know after my evening prayer I had a nap. I was properly dressed up ready to go to bed. I mean when a bell rang in my head I jumped out of bed having had nothing to eat. Greener. You embarrassed me by putting me before yourself. Good manners with me over. Thank you. Attention please. The most fantastic thing will happen. The conductor will open his mouth, wipes the ticket clean, tastes it with the tip of his tongue, finds it delicious, takes bite after bite, chews and swallows and belches. He finds stomach and gratified. Both hands feel his tummy. He says a little prayer and kisses the palm of his hand as a sign of gratitude. And in shock's surprise the passenger is unable to think. He doesn't know what to think. Don't take it! I give it to you. But where my ass is it now? In your tummy? Ceremony is lifted only between friends. Now know your limits. You're being sarcastic, I'm sure, but sarcasm will do you no good. Since a humor may amuse me, indeed, both in limits, duty will always be duty. But I didn't give it to you, I swear! And I threw it out the window? No, indeed, you are... I what? Well, I'm too old to lose my temper, old enough to let my reason rule my emotion, but I can never allow my reason to break the law. So now, Mr... Will you listen, Mr... Literally, servant of God. Listen, I'll do it. Let's discuss the story subject. Ask friends. Yeah, ask fellow travelers, and not as opponents. Well then, move over, and I'll sit by you. But you know what? Let me take my coat off first, so that you won't be afraid of me. Some people I know are allergic to yellow. Take my advice, as a friend, don't talk of anything against your will. Weigh your words certainly, as in a balance. Think a dozen times of each question, and a hundred times of each answer. A word of tangles, a speech, words unclear could turn into ropes around your neck, but let's tear it until... Conductor takes off his coat, and then there's another one underneath it. The conductor takes off his second coat, and another one still appears. We still see yellow, which reminds me, I have to comment on this color. Views of this color are very divided. Some believe that it is the color of glittering gold, and others believe it is the color of sickness, of a swallow complexion, the color of death. Have you removed this uniform? Now, what did you say your name was? I have to. My name is Sota. But it was a minute ago. So, me. Zaha way. Goodness enough, that's my superior's name. His rank. His forecoast. I often dreamed I'd killed him and taken his place. His wife. Now, she has a white complexion, plump thighs. My old body. He lives in the Santa Sunny Park, west of the Rosie District, you know, where he was all right, but I'm sometimes disturbed by the shouting pedestrians and howling cars. Which of them is this? I'm a craftsman. Craftsman. Parents never bothered. I could never be apprenticed as a craftsman. All I can do is search the cars. How to miss much, anyway. The pay is good, and the grading goes up to the 10th coat, right? But what was it you said your name was? Abdulla. Abdulla. Your name is not Abdulla. You're black. But I'm Abdulla. I swear. My father's Abdulla. My eldest is Abid. My youngest son, I bet. And my family name Abdulla. Well, have you an identity card? Yes. I always keep it in my right hand pocket. It's easier to reach from here being demanded and seen a dozen times a day. One day it was demanded 86 times and 70 the other day. No more than 90 by law. One has to be crystal clear to review oneself unequivocally for every question we must be ready with an answer. That doesn't lead to another question. The sound fruit in the basket are not disturbed by the hands which remove the bad ones. You're apparently a good man. Heat this car always nears to your right hand. It is your identity card. Your most precious possession. Show it to me for a second please. I'm nearly square but dry. Quite alright though. Do you know after my union prayer I had a man. I was properly dressed, ready to go to bed. I needed one of the bells ringing in my head. I jumped out of bed having had nothing to eat. Thank you. Quite alright. Conductor raises the car to his lips. Don't eat it. Please. Gracious meat. Eat it. Can anyone eat my car? This is unheard of. We have heard of eating horses meat, desert locusts, frogs legs, seaweeds and sometimes how cruel of eating the flesh of the living or the dead. But we have never heard of eating paper. I'm sorry for the interruption but I have to make another comment. The most delicious food for a man yet is paper. And the most appetizing part of it is history. We devour it all the time and everywhere. Only to rewrite it on different papers still to devour it later on. I'm surprised at you. I thought you had a better understanding. But you know I shat me hard on you. Shat sense of you too much for the friendship you so cheaply threw away before it hadn't even taken shape. I am forced, dear sir, to be formal with you. However, as a responsible official of the three co-bring, I have to abide by the words of our superior of the ten co-bring. I remember his words to us when he handed each his appointment papers. Oh, I know these words by heart. Among other such gross wisdom such as, keep your dog hungry. He'll follow the master Naman Ibn al-Mubir. When I hear the word culture, I feel through my pistol master Herman Ibn Gori. Teach them democracy even if you had to kill them all. Master Lyndon Ibn Johnson. I can see heads that are ripe and ready for picking of Haja Ibn Yusuf. And the words of the ten coat man himself however were leniently investigate severely. Your ten coat highness, the soul of leniency, the milk of human kindness. To this man ill disguised by a transparent mask of stupidity, let me say, no intention of eating your coffee. When I raised it to my face I was just staring at it. I'm still staring at it. Still staring at it. What a damnation. What is this? There's a mystery somewhere. There's a mystery somewhere. The conductor has thrown away the card on the floor, panicking or apparently in a panic. This is a blank piece of paper. Only one individual can have blank papers. An individual who has existed from time immemorial has existed as yet or never indeed existed, though we hear of him everywhere. Some people saw him, or thought they sometimes saw him. Some have spoken to him the way I speak to you now. Some claim you have one day spoken to him. The passenger picks the paper from the floor. But my papers are not blank. This is my name. This is what I look like. Can't you recognize your own papers? Oh, they are not your papers. You stole them. Just a minute. This is serious. Oh, the conductor takes off from one of his pockets, the back of an American sheriff, and he pins it to his chest. He turns his seat around to fit the passenger, and then he pulls a shelf out from under the seat, makes it into a table, and then he puts some papers on it. And he takes out a few pens from the back pocket of his trousers. He likes a cigarette and twirls his mustache, wetting it or losing just a little bit of ointment from the bottle. But he takes out of the back pocket of his trousers, and then he clears his throat. And listen to the charge. You have killed God and stolen his identity card. And I, the Wen Yibil Zahawim Yibil Sultan, chief law enforcing officer in this part of the world, in your name, Otenko Man, I declare the court in session. No, I haven't. I plead not guilty. I appeal to the Tenko Man himself. I want his justice. Just a minute for justice to be done. Certain formalities have to be observed. That is rights. Justice without informalities is like a woman unpainted. It's like a stage, even like this one of ours, without curtains. This is why the conductor jumps up to sit on the luggage net, and he hangs down his legs, and he swings his boots over the passenger's head. Don't be surprised. This too is rights. And it is said that it is the law that is above the heads of the individuals. Innocent! I swear innocent! Innocent! Never killed anybody or stolen anything! Help me, Tenko Man! Are you calling the Tenko Man himself? I'm innocent! Innocent! I am the Tenko Man. Look. The conductor of justice. What do you know of my justice? Your justice is unequaled on this earth. Speak of my kindness to the weak. You're as kind as a mother and a father. Such indeed is real kindness. That's even better. Speak of my knowledge. He knows the secrets of language and religions. His meditations put all the shame, both men and books. Good. Good. What about my generosity? If he had nothing left to give away but his life, he would gladly do it. So fear the Lord when he approach him. No, no. This is reckless. I can't give away my life, not to anyone. Not because I'm a miser holding back, but I just wouldn't want to upset the cosmic order. Keeping it, my friend, is quite a responsibility. Is this your verse? No, no, no, no. My, my, my, my, my, my, my majesty of your glory. There are lines of dull and insipid doggery which survive in my memory from Voidland. You know the author? More than I do. If I remember rightly. Certainly not. My intuition never fails me. This sounds like I'll I am. Chabain, I'll I am. The passenger proves tactful. He picks one of the conductor's pens, pretends to be fascinated by this information, and asks in falling, fawning tones. Whom by Lord? Chabain, I'll I am. A journalist in my entourage. He's fit for nothing except this hollow prowl. But it amuses me. Do you know? I'm not happy. Some fools imagine I'm lucky when they go back in the evening to their shacks and sheds. They often wonder, what is it that the Ted Cote man does? He receives the highest salary. Lives in a palace, controls the destinies of people, etc. They don't know. I just bear the heaviest burden. Then I jump out of my bed in the middle of the night. If something happens, I leave my palace to find out for myself how things are. I retain in my mind the names of killers and murderers and those who have wicked ideas which are more dangerous than the most dangerous killers and murderers. I receive the strangers who visit our country. I suffer their dumb, malicious looks. You're out of coffee with every color. Even with my enemies. I have 200 cups a day. My digestion? Rude. I live on a diet of boiled vegetables. Do you know that sometimes to go without sleep, except for a few hours a week? Oh, I don't want you to think I'm afraid of being killed in my bed. I'm not afraid of death, but one must be careful. My gut is why I kill my enemies or buy them off alternatively. Indeed, I'm not afraid of my enemies. I'm afraid of my friends rather. Their hearts are gnawed by envy. They smile on my face, but black spite will remain in their hearts. You'll be sorry for yourself, my lord. Oh, I'm not sorry for myself. I'm sorry for the envious who have lost their souls. I deplore their black hearts and wish they could see the light, know the light. If only they knew what it means for a heart to be pure, to be purified by love. Pure of my lord, your tears are too precious to be shed for bad people. That's right. You're apparently a good man. Just a minute. The conductor goes down from the shelf and he starts to shock your passenger. The passenger believes this might be a hopeful time, believing that his humility is about to save his man. Let's talk this friends. Perhaps you'll forgive my looking so closely into your case. Am I telling you of a rumor, the veracity of which I cannot determine? Accertain its veracity, my lord. You're so shrewd, so very clever. Precisely what I'm doing. Now look, try to appreciate my position. I'm responsible for the whole entire valet, and the rumor says that one valid dweller has killed God and stolen his identity. That is the most awful thing anybody's ever heard. The rumor is false, no doubt, my lord. Well, it is. Unfortunately, it is quite true, though indirectly so. But how? I mean, if you'll pardon my core understanding. What do you mean, my lord? I appreciate your interest in the case. Let me clarify the matter to you. Thanks, my lord. Don't mention it. Well, do you know what it means to lose your identity, my lord? It means that you don't exist. Whatever steals it, whoever steals it kills you by depriving you of your specific individuality. Forgive my ignorance, my lord. What do you mean by that expression? Your very existence. It means depriving you of your existence, you understand? Now, when I say you have killed God, I do not mean of course that, may God forgive me, you have. Certainly not. What I mean, rather, is that you have stolen his identity card, which amounts to the same thing. But I never did anything of the sort. Well, that's another story. We'll all discuss it later on. The point now is, however, that God has forsaken this part of the universe. He never looks this way now, as he has walked to do. He never gives us anything now. We wonder what has happened. We wonder what has happened. And the answer is, someone has killed God in these parts. This is why he has abandoned us. What I mean, of course, is that someone has stolen his identity card, his identity. They assumed his identity. We decided first to investigate the matter in secret. We examined every file, tapped all telephone conversations, photocopied all letters, held thousands, tortured 20 till they were dead, tortured 30 till named, tortured 80 till fainted, and all available. Were there any confessions? A hundred, as far as I remember. Ow, I mean, why not? I'd still abandon myself. It is serious indeed. So much so, in fact, that I, the Ten Code Man, no less, have disguised myself in workers' overalls, or in peasant rags. I walked down valleys, or sank in the depth of the alleys. I reached the top floors by back stairs, leaves dropped on people behind walls. I painted my face white and plain, at fire walking, at hashish takers' dens, in the hope of overhearing. I tell the tale word, or get in a clue, which might unravel the mystery. I hope the door might open. Even a secret passage, leading to the oh no. Look, here we are. I'm in the plane of the valley, and the Ten Code Man himself sitting side by side, shoulder to shoulder, talking like old friends. Who knows? I mean, perhaps you'll reveal the secret to me. Do you realize how serious it is? How it calls for self-admigration? Very much, my boy. Are you willing to do something for me then? For the whole of the valley, rather? Indeed. Anything for you, my lord. Let me join in the search. Join me in the search? If you'll allow me, my lord. Don't we've done them already? Here he is. Who, my lord? Please, wait, wait. I'd like to get you in my meaning and fool. The whole question has been a carefully guarded secret, triply combined to a number of my closest associates. But it soon broke loose, and the grievous thing was reported to my enemies. My enemies spread it far and wide. And everybody came to know about it. That is why we hardly have time to distinguish those who tell the truth from the liars. We have to be decisive. Otherwise, the order of the valley will be upset. I know what I'm doing. I'll tell everybody in tomorrow's papers that I myself have caught the culprit and killed him. Your photograph will be published everywhere, and your body will lie in its state. You're a good man, and you're of the noblest quality. Worthy of the greatest sacrifice. You're willing to do something for me. Remember, let me forget about it. Forget about it. Now, we'll discuss it later on. Let me ask you a question. Your answer will show your taste. Now, let us suppose that you have a choice between four methods or instruments of death. But when? No. Oh, you have no taste for it? You're quite right. It's barbarian. Even backward. Tenori, the barbarian. What do you think of poison? No. Doesn't agree with you either. You're right. It is a method tinged with meanness and treachery. It's the Medici method. What about the Balmer? No. No, no, no. I don't like it myself. It's killing from a distance. It lacks the warmth or touch. It's a bolder, modern method, game, for the helmet and cowardly. What we do is a classical method. Death is to retain its splendor. It's grandeur. Alexander, I'm sorry. I'll do Omnibus Men. Let the dagger touch thee. Let the dagger pierce thee. Stabs him with a dagger. Power, I would advise you to be silent as well. Perfectly. You haven't discussed it yet. Oh, we'll discuss it later on. I never killed anybody. Never saw anybody. I swear. Omnibus and purest. Do you know who killed God and stole his identity card? He won't. I can't reveal his name, though. I could. I believe. Won't. Open your eyes for the last time. He has to look for the last time. The conductor unbottoms his undercoat. From a pocket there and closest to his bare chest, he takes out a blank card and waves it before the eyes of the dying man. The passenger looks at it once and drops dead. He approaches the narrator. Could you lend a hand? Come on. Let's carry him together. What should I do? What can I do? He holds a dagger. And I'm unarmed like you. I have nothing but my commentary. What should I do? We're going to have a quick discussion right now. Frank is going to moderate it with Wood Marvin and the actors and the directors and myself. And then we're going to open up the floor for more Q&A afterwards. Thank you, everybody, for participating. And again, thank you, Sama, for putting this together. Together with Robin as a co-curator. They're also welcome to our viewers. This is now live streamed also through HowlRound. We're on the nation. We'd like to thank HowlRound for being such a great partner and also for screaming this last play, which is of real significance. So maybe we'll start with Marvin. Marvin, where does this play? You already said a little bit. But how do you feel? How does it fit in the Arab theater or also in its connection to European Western theater? I think the latter question seems to be more striking that certainly there are Egyptian elements in the play. Some of the references and the particular way the names are used in the play and the implied religious background and so on. But it seems to me that the play is, wants to be and is much more international than that. That is, everyone recognizes the whole problem of the identity cards or the lack of identity cards, the blank cards, the wonderful concept of the conductor eating it and the whole death of God controversy and who killed God. This is an international 20th century question and the play takes it in its own directions. But it seems to me that the kind of concerns that the play sets up and the kind of dialogue that it sets up really make it a general statement of modern life, modern bureaucracy. And especially the inexplicability and whimsicalness of power and the use of power and the helplessness of the character who confronts that. All of those things seem to me, we've seen this in Kafka, we've seen it in so many different major modern figures. That's truly also the absurdist Kafkaist situation where he is in and then that role of the narrator, which is so creative and interesting. And also, you know, we all are the witnesses. It was the narrator in what to do about it. Robin, normally one would think you would direct the very first one, then you know, like James, you know, and Karim, what is this? I thought it was an interesting choice. Did you choose to direct this? To some degree, yeah. We were talking about this and the whole switching around of roles and characters with the actors. And then we decided that we wanted to extend that conversation, like Salma said earlier, to the directors and their dealing with the different plays. And I certainly, I read Night Traveler after Salma introduced it to me and I kind of fell in love with it and really wanted to do it. And I think what Marvin just commented on with it being so international is so true. It wasn't, I mean, I'm from Norway and you know, it's a very different reality there than it is even over here or than I would imagine that it is in Egypt. But I didn't feel like I had to go an extra distance to understand the dynamics working in the play because we all know these different characters. I mean, Subur himself says that they're types, right? And we know these types. We know the dynamics in our own lives because these plays of power, they don't work only on the top and going down. We meet them every day. Even if it's a cashier or a security guard at an airport or a bouncer at a bar, you know, we meet them every day. And maybe we even assume the roles in certain situations. And so because of that, I think to some degree one can approach all of these plays without having a hands-on experience with the roles that are in the play, if that makes sense, as they are written. Thank you. Thank you very much. It's since we now have heard from the directors. Maybe also it's time to ask the actors who kind of switched also the roles and covered is it three continents? Yeah, you know, in that short time, how did it feel? Maybe take the microphone also and make sure it's pushed up. Not only so we hear you better, but it is recorded. How did it feel like? And how did any of those plays feel more closer or far away? Is it one endless play? Is it a variation? And so how did it feel? Oh, good. I think that... Can we go along that? Yeah, sure. I think that we all kind of came in with a certain amount of a little bit of nervousness, the trepidation of sort of some of these enormous themes that we were about to go into. And it was surprisingly fun to just sort of get to play and with some of these dark themes and also defined in ways in which we could relate to all of the characters. And I loved that we had the opportunity to take a turn at the oppressor and the oppressed. And yeah. How did they... I mean, you connected with Amiri Baraka, you know, some of those. How did it feel for you? Oh, it was very frightening. It was absolutely frightening. I mean, it was very challenging. The first time I read, I think especially with the pinter play and then with the Dutchman, both of those just... Pinter just being such a strange world. We spent a good deal of time at the table just talking about what is going on. And we still don't know because that is a play that produces more questions than answers. And it's a very fascinating world to go into. But just generally speaking, when it comes to the Dutchman, I mean, I was just... I just was really afraid to say the words. It was like, you know... It was the reverse of the past. I was the one who was saying, you just got to say it. Yeah, Jordan had excellent advice for me. Yeah, no, I mean... Let's go towards you. For any of these, it seems like the main thread... I pulled this out because number one, we realized that for sure, two of them specifically are supposed to be on a train station and then one for the road. It doesn't really say where, but we love... There's this quote from Night Traveler. It says, the action of Night Traveler unfolds in a night train, a simple symbol of a barren and senseless journey into the darkness of a meaningless existence. So I think... I think once we heard that, we were like, you know, what would be interesting? If you did produce it later on down the road, and you did all three at the same time, that you would imagine that one for the road would be in the MTA office so that it's like, these two are in the subway and then we're in the holding office in that box where you never get any answers anyways. So it would really... I think it does... That's number one. I think the thread that I always like having is overall this universe. It feels very much in the subway, but I think the thread that I know, I love for all three. I just did Raising in the Sun and for the same thing with the character of Lindner who tries to buy the house back from the younger family, it's not... The worst kind of racism is actually not when they just blatantly say it to your face. It's actually when the person is like being a business salesman and that's what it feels like all three are when you are the oppressor is like, look, I'm trying to help you out. And then the victim, normally, specifically for the Dutchman and then also for Night Traveler, the victim is like, well, let me just play along with this and then see how long I have to deal with it and then hopefully they'll just shuffle away. And by the time you've played along so long, you're now in it and you can't get out. So I think it's like... It's a very complicated matter of how do you actually fall into this position because it seems for all three ones, it's easier than you think. Yeah, no. Sort of how these free plays intertwine but also kind of like seem to go on their own various themes, but there's also kind of like something to be said and also like piggybacking on what Jordan said. There's something to be said about the whole idea of like people who are not normally seen as sort of like figures of authority but they like to sort of like cling on authority. I mean, for instance, like with the train conductor, like it's somewhat like someone who just basically like takes their ticket but then to sort of like take out to a whole new level into like a position of power and gets into that whole like existentialist like conversation that sort of like questions the identity but also like stripping away that identity at the same time. Sort of like it kind of like it's very befuddling but also kind of like there's something to be said about that. Sort of like everybody craves that like has a lust for that authority, like wanting to sort of like have that power and exercise it on those who are like less fortunate than them. So I think there's something to be said about like that same narrative thread all across free plays. I just wanted to add what Ali was just talking about how universal it is the dynamics between people once there's like the we were also discussing this yesterday there's the slightest bit of authority and not just that but a chance to actually practice that authority and get away with it which I felt throughout the three plays but it's also very interesting that it's an act and the oppressor understands that it's an act yet they believe it and their reference is probably their own oppressor so it's like this endless cycle. Just add something quickly. It was just interesting now like just hearing your feedbacks and then realizing that one of the things that we were not consciously tracking but maybe in the next rendition we would is the role of the bystander which is the role of the narrator and then the role of like the people that help Lula and the conductor as well like in in in in Dutchman and then in one for the road the question is who would be the observer then would it be us would it be the person who's reading the stage who would like the stage directions being that but yeah that's something that I'm that I think really resonated this time along more than just the oppressor oppressed dynamic but also who's watching and what they're doing. Yeah and Marvin just also as a question do you I mean they were written between I think 64 and 84 would those plays could they be written right now or do you think what we see now on stage is what kind of reality has perhaps Margaret more in are they in a way plays of their times or do you think they are still contemporary? They really are both Frank all three plays are very much of their time they were they were all written at at at times of the threat of that kind of that kind of government or that kind of private pressure but if anything I think that that that threat is now maybe not not more common but more universally recognized that people are much more aware of this now I have to say that as you know I just came back from Egypt yesterday and this play now works maybe better than it did under the under the regime in the 60s because there is a there is a repetitive power in in in totalitarian regimes so the way they operate the kind of assumptions they make and and the way that they the way they negotiate and manifest their power and alas I think we have as widespread maybe more worldwide pattern of this kind of activity now than we then we did 20 or 30 years ago so the plays the the the the particular particular references may tie them to particular instances but as I said in the in the case of night traveler you don't focus on those things you focus on the the negotiations of power and that hasn't changed at all just to piggyback on that I think it's a it's a testament to how the the plays are of their time but even more or more so or more than that in that we sit here now in 2018 and we have responses to the texts right they're not dated in a way where we hear them and we just have an intellectual understanding of them we sit here laughing I was crying at several points like we have emotional reactions to these texts even today which speaks to their relevance I think so and so do you think if though it would be at a theater of the flea or I don't know at the art center would people come would people would you direct it do you think is the is it the right context yes I I believe that it is the right context I believe people will come it's it's more and more like theater of the oppressed you want to see what's happening and it happens across the country things kind of happen in in groups so like the Dutchman is being done in four different states it's coming back to New York so they did it in Arizona earlier this year they're they did it in Texas in March and now they're planning on doing it in July it's in conversation because it's being brought up I feel the same way about night traveler because I also thought of the parallels that we the with that we recognize especially with the narrator's last comment which was like I'm just a comment here and I thought about Twitter and live streaming events and like how people when you're watching a live event you're on Twitter just commenting on everything that's happening maybe blowing it out of proportion or even that's the way that we people watch now that we're like oh my god this person just walked over to this other person and they're asking them out whoo it's what happens when that gets turned on you and you know it happened in the beginning of like all of the movements the Black Lives Matter movement especially with all of the shootings that have been happening people are starting to call out the Twitter universe and be like you can't just comment about it what are you going to do because commenting for a little bit was like I'm supporting you hashtag blah blah blah but now it's like well you have to be active so I feel like it would draw more people out and they they too will maybe this will spark the revolution maybe that'll give them that impetus it will be interesting if the Dutchman will be done in New York how the reaction will be I remember Marvin you told about the story about when you went try to see theater of Amiri Baraka and you couldn't get in right in Jersey maybe you'd share the story and well yes it's a kind of funny story it's a kind of tragic story but it certainly is a story about power the when Amiri Baraka created his own theater in Newark in New Jersey a spirit house they opened with slave ship wonderful wonderful play and in those days when I was younger and more foolish even than now I decided I would go out into the wilds of New Jersey to see the play and I made my way out there which is not easy you took a bus out into a pretty tricky neighborhood and where I was obviously the only white within miles and then there was a fairly long walk and people looked at me as though I were some strange animal that had wondered me I mean I didn't I didn't feel any any threat particularly although I was clearly out of place and I came to spirit house and there was a big it looked like a bouncer I mean I that's sort of what he was I guess at the door and he said what you're doing here white boy and again it's the it's the as as Sala said you get this in all sorts of situations with cashiers people in the airport security people well I found myself rather unaccustomed because I'm usually in the position of privilege and power which he knew and I said well I I'm interested in theater I just came out came out see the play and he said you get your white ass back to the city so I did but it it it is a it is an interesting example of again we all knew the roles immediately that was that was just what it was and and and he wasn't about to let me in I mean and and looking back on it I was foolish to go there not not because I was in any danger but because it was inappropriate I would have been a peculiar animal outside wandering in and probably a distraction I just didn't know any better at the time and very much was this that was it was a very familiar dynamic and in a way also how wonderful that theater created some kind of power where you they could be in charge that you come in or you don't you know what I mean but maybe the only place in Newark in that moment where there was some kind of choices could be made but before we go to audience and questions to Robin and Selma you said if we do it and when we do it so what is what are your plans and the ideal world what would you like what would you really like to see what would be the best scenario when so what will happen or what do you really wish that will happen the idea is that now that we've seen it on its feet and we've experimented seeing like those three plays played together I think the next step we'd like to bring in contemporary playwrights to write a contemporary response to those three plays and then for for for those four productions to be sort of produced in one cycle at the same time of like the old and the new and the response if there's a different response or maybe a victory like whatever that response may be it is a conversation between here and the now but also a playwright from a different part of the world than those three so six plays all together no no no would be the hour three plays and just one modern new play in response to those three but from a playwright that is of the now and that is from a different part from like not not not from the USA not from Egypt and not from Europe anybody who's watching has an idea they can yes totally Robin no absolutely and and like Salma said that is certainly what we'd like the next step to be and and also to to put it even more up on its feet you know and move away from a reading and actually into full productions I think would be very exciting we've also talked about I mean this is a conversation that we've been having for three and a half years so it's a it's a it's been a long time coming to this hopefully won't be as long into the next step but but we've also discussed making this into a larger festival festival is a weird word to use when we are talking about oppression but but doing many plays eventually would be interesting and to really track how all of these themes are interwoven and and how they relate to each other etc etc yeah fantastic or maybe one day on a train on a moving train you know where people can go so maybe Mike or whoever is up there knows Bella some lights on the audience and some comments or questions and we will give you a microphone not only so we hear you better but as I said before it is live streamed and recorded and and so he's taking my microphone here we go as my power is gone so yeah Michael behind you oh one and then two sack first sorry yeah thank you in the in the last play that was at the beginning what when when the character was repeating names right I don't know these were like names from history right so for me it was quite quite interesting so because you said Alexander and then you also said Hitler before so it was that intentional to connect the two because Alexander if you really see him I mean he was probably I mean he he was a great conqueror but he was he came from the oppressed he united the the Greeks in order to revolt against the the Persian imperialism which was torturing you know and you know the Greek so are you trying to put them like on the same on the same level well I'm certainly not but Sabor might have it's it's certainly a list of of great leaders through time and and so Alexander is mentioned Tamerlane is mentioned and Hitler as well and Hitler as well and also Lyndon B. Johnson yeah so it's a I'm not sure necessarily maybe Marvin has some input here but I'm not sure necessarily what Sabor tried to accomplish with what's stringing those names together other than than being great leaders through time I don't know I think I could help you out I think there was a word that our other director used for the Dutchman where he was like it's almost seems like my character was conjuring up his own oppressor because like if you see I kept asking questions my guy could have just stopped engaging with her but instead he keeps he's actually the provocateur he's he's he's getting the answers out and so in the same way it seems like he's although he's trying to think about these guys and why they succeeded or how they could be defeated the mere thought and bringing them up the narrator even says it when you bring those names up you're automatically bringing that idea to life again even if you're trying to even if you're trying to break it down and understand it you're automatically that that curiosity that kills the cat and so I think it's because he's bringing up and he's conjuring those names even if he was trying to stop it he's now called upon it I think I think more than anything it feels like one of those Achilles heel that you're you're your own worst enemy that you the thing that makes you great is also the thing that destroys you and because he's such a good thinker he couldn't think his way out of the situation and we go over here to that question I'm sure Alexander the Great's human rights record also is not completely spotted I think it was mostly about you know oppressors dictators or even more disturbing than the plays was the story that Marvin told and I just don't understand that because Amir was a pretty friendly guy why he wouldn't want you to be out there to see I mean that's what theater is all about is communicating and so that well let me let me first I respond to this question then to that one and that is that it's a very interesting roster of people that and remember the play is written in 1969 think who Lyndon Johnson was at that time and what he represented internationally maybe particularly in the Arab world but certainly internationally these are even Alexander the Alexander that we see in this play is somebody who is really exalting in his power and his cruelty remember he talks about taking down I mean there's the Aristotle tried to teach him and he took care of Aristotle and the the that kind of drunkenness of power and enjoyment or or maybe it's maybe they're not even enjoying it anymore maybe it's just a matter of custom that connects all these people together I think at the beginning but but as well I told this story to Baraka later he came he visited the graduate center and we we were I was teaching a class and in in modern in the modern theater and we talked about this he was amused and whether whether at that time I might I mean he didn't he didn't say oh if I'd known about a lot of let you in and I think you would not have and I think you would have been right that is when I say that on on on thinking about an afterward I I really did think that the the the the racial dynamics of theater going at that time were such that with all the goodwill in the world and all the tolerance in the world I would have been a disruptive element in that in that situation I really think I would have been I think the guy was right to send me I don't understand that at all I don't know why you know it it it it has to do with with just if you you like I are old enough to remember that in the in the in the late 60s early 70s this was not just a racial matter it was a matter of of of different groups finding out or trying to find out especially silenced or oppressed groups gathering together out of the presence of the oppressor so they could speak freely among each other women's groups for example or gay groups that having somebody from the oppressive class there was what we used to call it a dampening element and that was a real phenomenon I I witnessed it I mean I would I was I was always on the dominant side of the power equations what took me it took me a long time to realize that that I could be a a trouble not not not disruptive in a sense I was causing any trouble but then and I was a distraction people would be not looking only party looking at the play but party looking at what does that white guy think about this how does how does he feel about this but Marvin I'm sorry I don't want to cut in there I mean wouldn't you be part of the address see any and this is fascinating but to me the play is so much about a white addressy right in terms of audience so I I kind of wondered if people could comment on what their sense was as you were working on the place like who are these plays being written for it's very well to talk about sort of the universal themes and of course that's what we sort of talk about you know in kind of a cliche in my opinion about works of art but okay so we can do that and and there has to be that element right for people of different backgrounds and times and so on to relate to something but I think to take it out of a particular moment also poses its own kinds of sort of drawbacks and so I'm I'm really interested in Marvin's kind of story but I would hate to leave it there because it seems to me that the play is so very much about right the racial dynamics as you think of that time which persists to this time that that part of the addressy is the white oppressor otherwise the play doesn't really work it's not about the victims who are you know African-Americans talking about how terrible it is to be victims it's about calling out you know the white the woman who represents a sort of nexus of problematically in Amiri Baraka's case not just the racist oppressor but she's also rendered in certain kinds of ways that are misogynistic right so I mean I think critically it's a play that must have invited audiences at all times to be not just like where this is about let's keep this contained within the black community that doesn't make any sense to me Marvin just too I think it's just an example and it was also about the insert so let's let's be clear about what we're talking about I did not go to see a production of Dutchman I didn't go to see Dutchman I went I did go to see Dutchman when it premiered down in the village it premiered in a in an off off Broadway or an off Broadway theater oh well no it was off off Broadway theater where the audience was almost entirely white and was meant to be and Baraka knew that that's what it was the different different situations have different audiences you know Jeanne said you can't do the blacks unless there is a single unless there's a white person in the audience and if there is not a white person you must bring in one to do the play now you can say all right that's then let's do it we don't have to follow that of course we don't have to follow that but we have to be conscious of what is the predict all in theater more than anywhere else we have to say what are the physical cultural social conditions of this moment in time that's what theater is maybe I feel very strongly about that yeah what is the audience what do you what do you guys think is the oriented well specifically for Dutchman and based off of like readings and actual documentation of when it was first produced at the Cherry Lane Theater it was a predominately white theater and Amir Barakha was was like celebrated by the white community when he decided to take the play to the New Harlem Theater to a black community it was not received well it was received as a play that promotes white hatred from black communities and there was so much resistance to that at the time so this is like this is an example of specificity of we know who it was made for and how it was received by two different communities well I would just I totally agree with you and I would also remind people that especially at the at the beginning or near the beginning of Barakha's career where this comes he wrote a a manifesto of the Black Revolutionary Theater which is a a wonderful document and a very powerful and a very angry document and the last sentence in that document says and the enemy which must be destroyed is those of you who are reading this and that's not the black community what would be your audience now if you had to put it up where would you like to put it up and also in the ideal world what did you think that through? No but thinking on it now I certainly do think that New York is a very suitable place for it to be because New York has been for so many years and is still such a melting pot of different people and backgrounds and internationals and Americans so I think so I mean but I see these plays working at other places too I mean let's do them in Europe let's let's go to Eastern Asia and do them there let's you know do them in South Africa I mean what would be the ideal audience where what part of New York would you well I did just to comment on that and actually link it to to your comment I feel that with these plays one can certainly look at the specific specificity of each play and and the notes of each play but to me the interesting part is how they harmonize and how they come together and actually speak to each other and for that to truly happen I think that the audience needs to be as diverse as the plays are for for those discussions to be truly frugal and and and truly healthy I think that the diversity of both what happens on stage and what happens off stage is so important I just well I like hearing that you want to do it in New York but I I feel like these plays should be done like probably like a nice college tour because that's like getting it out there and like breaking people out of bubbles you know what I mean in New York we can sit nod and be like yes mm-hmm I know but like to North Carolina and then put it in the college there and you still have a the diverse population of North Carolina with like international students and everyone and it just opens it up to that dialogue that you know it gives it more I think taking it on a I like that idea it's still an international like an international audience but within a place that is not as diverse as New York is or at least as aware as New York is in regards to their audience's knowledge maybe one more common question um one, two, let's react to those you'd spoken about we're talking about the audience and speaking of the audience I'm fascinated by audiences I did my thesis years ago on the role of the audience and the assumed role in this agreement that we come into with the performers and each other whenever we come into a theater it's a fascinating living role that nobody really talks about and I really enjoyed in night train that you chose to end with night train because this sort of creeping sensation of our complicity in this situation runs through the first two pieces and then at the end of night train the narrator turns and says what do I do as though we're going to get up and help her and that's always the question for an audience of Hamlet is there being like am I a coward he really wants you to help him he's speaking to the audience at that moment and we don't we sit there and we're like you're gonna die and with the you know we're seeing you know in night train we're watching this man dig his own grave as we are very familiar with at this point in our political history MJ you were talking about Facebook and Instagram and we are an audience to all of these things that are happening and we do nothing and when we are asked that question please help me what do I do that really hits home and it was very effective to end with with that I think what's even worse now is that then before because of Twitter and Facebook people think that they're doing something by just commenting on the situation or doing writing a post with a hashtag and that's it like we've done our part of activism y'all like we've we've spread the word and that's it which is more dangerous than just sitting and doing nothing because you think that you've done it you've yeah that's the last question yeah that was great and just the last the piece of the narrator commenting my first thought was like on an emotional level it's almost the same as an NPR commentator like oh my gosh I was really struck by that but I just have one teeny tiny question the the names in the last play from Arabic were were translated from Arabic except for the last one the middle one was Vainglorious and then the last one wasn't translated I was wondering if you have a translation Abdul no no there was a z name which is Vainglorious Sultan and then and then one after that Sultan Zahuan yeah yeah Zahuan Sultan is a Sultan yeah there's a right there is a we got the name now it's so I'll win I'll win I'll win I'll win I'll win even I'll win even Sultan which was I'll win I'll win even as Zahuan even Sultan or even Sultan even Zahuan I'll win is I does there's no the okay there we go someone of a higher Stata that's and it wasn't the just letting the translations there were those were in the footnotes and we chose to to use them in the stage directions this one was not in the footnote which we should have thought about so that's something to think about thank you so okay one more but I just give you the microphone and thank you I have a very quick question about the last play was it staged in Egypt you said it was produced in 1969 so was it staged in the same year or it was postponed till the death of Nasser no it was staged I don't know in which theater exactly but it was staged but it didn't have to wait for another another sign but I know that Salah Habsib were around that like this play was not perceived well but again there are not of there are not a lot of records of those accounts like we there is no track of like proper production history in Egypt it's been it's been very popular since then yes yes yes yes yeah yeah but I can look into it more and let you know thanks thank you good so again congratulations to both of you for dreaming up the project for all of you to participate in creating it for the audience to come it's about past fast you know for three plays and for the social US state and they're inspiring and I think it was a great model also for a theater to put something out to talk about it and then talk about it again and then talk about it so I think something to be discovered in this way of presenting work and again thank you very much and think a big applause from us to all of us applause before we go I just again I want to think I want to thank everyone who had joined on this project and all the collaborators and Robin but last but not least I want to thank you Frank I want to thank the Seagull I want to thank the Seagull staff for the great work and I want to thank Frank for just giving that amazing opportunity thank you and I think we're going to go around at the archive bar on 36 between fifths and Madison On the north and on the south side in case you would like to meet some of the collaborators. I have additional questions