 Welcome to NewsClick, today we have with us for an interview Shehla Rashid Shoura, she's been a student activist and she's also with the JKPM as general secretary, welcome Shehla. Shehla tell us about normalcy in Kashmir, we have videos of Mr. Ajit Doval, the NSA moving around, talking to people, interacting a lot. Today also he's released a video, so what does this mean normalcy, is there normalcy? My request to Mr. Ajit Doval because he's in my home and I can't go back home right now, is to please go to my home, find out if my family is okay because I don't know. My request to Mr. Ajit Doval is to go to my cousin's place, she's expecting a baby, see if she can reach a hospital. Today I have to send 100 letters to my mother, this is something we didn't even do 20 years back, even 20 years back we had the telephone and everything. This is the normalcy that we are talking about, we see curfew in Kargil, we see curfew in all districts of Kashmir and then we are talking about normalcy. So this is like an absolute one-sided propaganda where people are being gagged completely, all of Kashmir is under arrest right now, every house is under lockdown and then people are allowed to selectively celebrate. Some people who are BJP workers, they are meeting Mr. Ajit Doval, some people who are BJP workers in Jammu, they are celebrating. So that's being shown as selective celebration. So it's a one-sided propaganda that's being pushed and the government officials are simply lying when they say that there are no protests, there have been protests, there have been casualties. Three reports, one filed by the Huffington Post, one by the BBC and one by the wire, they clearly show that there are casualties, people are suffering, people are being injured and tear gas, shells and pepper gas are being sprayed in residential areas, which is also like which has been the norm for a while in Kashmir. It is just this time there is an attempt to deny that anything is happening as if Kashmiris are like celebrating this decision. Okay, so one of the things again related to normalcy is that we are constantly told that a lot of the provisions, the safeguards of article 370 have been, you know, whittled down over the years, a lot of parties have also complained about this. But now it's being said that since it had already become so weak and almost meaningless, so then why are people upset? See, this is something to do with the loss of identity first of all, the way that there is an express intention on behalf of the government to settle people there, to change the demography. That is like the final goal of the government, how much time that takes that only time will tell, how much time before, you know, the cultural integrity of people is violated. The bigger anxiety right now is that people will be subjected to all kinds of violence if they try to raise their voice and you can't expect people not to raise their voice because this is an issue that concerns them. In the video that was filed by BBC, we saw people protesting peacefully, they are not holding any, they are not even pelting stones, but they were fired upon. So the government, you know, there is this talk in government circles, there is a talk in WhatsApp groups that the government is ready for 8 to 10,000 casualties, you know, you might have heard that somewhere. So that just shows that the government is going to use a lot of violent tactics to put down any form of dissent. 800 leaders we are being told are under arrest and this doesn't include just political leaders, mainstream or separatist. It includes civil society members, businessmen, lawyers, they have been picked up. This is really violent what's going on in Kashmir. You know, one interesting development again is from Jammu, even within the ruling party, the BJP, we've had some people say that, you know, give us a special dispensation of some kind even now. So can you explain why this might be happening? Look, the Article 370 that was mentioned earlier, the Kashmiri Muslims had never asked for it, because the Kashmiri Muslims were talking about 30-47. At that time, the Kashmiri Muslims had no education, they had no means to take property, because it was a very hand-to-mouth type of situation. The Article 370 demand came from the Kashmiri Pandits, who were in the educated class, who were eligible for job swabs. And our brother, Jammu, came from that side of the demand. The original beneficiaries of the Article 370 were Kashmiri Pandits and Dogra Baradri. Now, if the Article 370 will be removed or even 35 will be removed, the biggest loss of that will be the effect on Jammu. If I don't say the effect, then people of Jammu will have to decide whether it is beneficial or not. But the biggest effect of that will be on Jammu. Because who wants to come to Kashmir? Kashmir, we run away, we go out for education. The people who want to go, who are talking about investment or buying land, will all be in Jammu. So, as you can see in Assam, there are a lot of tensions regarding immigrants. There are such tensions that will increase in Jammu as well. So, actually the BJP in Jammu is feeling the heat now. Now that Jammu people are saying, what did you do? It is going to affect our jobs, it is going to affect our land. There are immigrants who will come. So, now BJP is feeling the heat in Jammu and that is why they are saying, well, we will enact laws after our union territory assembly, which will be the assembly of Delhi type union territory. In that, we will bring laws, we will restrict land rights, we will keep jobs for the locals. So, some safeguards. So, basically, BJP itself is not convinced that this is the best decision for Jammu and Kashmir. But of course, no one can say anything against Modi. Basically, because those protections were already there, it is not sense to bring them back. It can mean that they are actually planning to bring them back. Because in the long term, in the short term, now everyone is celebrating, everyone is cheering on. Yes, hit the Kashmiri people, do this. Now we will marry their daughters. You know this kind of violent cheering on. Right now everyone is cheering on the government in a very violent way. But in a while, they are going to realize, what will be the impact on Jammu and then BJP will have to answer for that. So, maybe they actually have this as a plan B in mind, that when we have criticism in Jammu, that time we will bring laws like this. But that is actually what you see with every decision that the Modi government takes. After demonetization, nothing has changed. After 370, they are trying to bring back provisions like 370-1. They have already declared their intention. In the air strike, you also saw that nothing changed. Every time there is a surgical strike and whatever, after that nothing changes. So, you know this kind of thoughtless policy, which then has to be reversed, which doesn't have any impact. I was asking, why are you angry with this? And secondly, you mentioned identity. So, in the question of identity, we saw the videos yesterday. Yes, it is true that it is wrong. Maybe after some time we will get to know, because there are denials as well. The video is also being questioned. But in those videos, the kind of Islamic slogans are being raised, what impact can it have? In Kashmir, in Jammu and all these, the rest of the country symbolizes something. Look, you cannot defeat Kashmir with a gun. It is true of state actors, it is true of non-state actors. You cannot win it by the gun. If at all you have to win over territory, you have to win over the people. And that, we don't see that happening. In fact, we see that there is every attempt to push Kashmiris away. There is every attempt to create divisions in the state. Look at the bifurcation of the state. What is the basis? I mean, Ladakh in Kashmir, they are connected by the Zujila Pass. You can drive to Ladakh in a day. What is this? I mean, this is a kind of... People are separating people on the basis of identity. So actually, who are the Al-Gaawadi? They are Amit Shah, actually Al-Gaawadi. The real separatists are these people who have bifurcated our state on lines of identity. Religion. Religion, identity. And then we are being told that, okay, some people are celebrating it. Now it's fine. I am not saying that in Kashmir, there are 100% people with us. Although, there is no 100% opinion right now. But believe me, if someone wants to celebrate a Kashmiri, if I want to celebrate it, you also allow me to do that. You have shut down all the phone communication, the internet has shut down. You allow the communication. Maybe we made such a good decision. Modi Ji is saying that it is a very good decision. Development will come. Okay, let us also celebrate it. So this one-sided discourse is that we will allow some Ramadav, who is a senior functionary, to share a fake video of a girl who is not a Kashmiri, Muslim definitely is not there, but is giving the impression of being Muslim. If he is sharing such fake videos, then it means propaganda is going on. Instead of policy, propaganda is going on. This is a question of development. Do you think that Kashmir needs such a development, which can meet the Union Territory? Many scholars have pointed out that the human development indicators in Kashmir, i.e. education, health, are much better than the states. Now you see us. We are not like that. We are below the poverty line. We are studying. We are studying outside universities. Our health and nutritional indicators are good. So this is not the impression that is being given, as someone was telling me yesterday that he was talking to someone, an auto driver in Hyderabad. He said that he is very poor in Kashmir. Everyone is terrorists there. That is why Mr. Modi is taking such steps. People are also given a fake impression of what is happening in Kashmir. People are also given a different impression of the larger Indian population that Kashmir is very backward. People are very poor. If you see there, terrorism, that is true, what is being said, but the insurgents who are taking guns, there is no m-tech, no ph.d. There is no such thing that people are uneducated, poor, so they are taking guns. People are taking guns because the government is very cruel. They are pushed into it. This narrative is being run that there is a backward and poverty, which is not true. If there is a chief minister in Kashmir, Omar Abdullah, the food that is made in his house is also made in my house. There is no big difference. Even if there is a poor family, food is made in his house. Because we have land reforms here, so there is a general equality there. So there is no development issue, the way it is being said, there is no development issue. The government takes 15-20 years to make a flyover. It took my entire life to make a flyover. The roads are not being made. You go from the side to the side. You will see that there is no drainage there. These are all the issues. When the Hindustani government comes there to rule, they say that you leave the Al-Gawad, leave the separatism. We will develop. There is an agreement to make roads and provide drinking water. It has not happened in the whole area yet. So there is a development issue. We are not stopping people from developing. They do not have any priority. Their priority is to push Kashmiris to the corner. If there is an election, Kashmir will create tension. Or Kashmiris will be targeted. If there is an assembly or Kashmir, Kashmir is used as a weapon before the election. What is the use of this weapon? You saw the post-Pulwama attack. You saw the polarization. We do not see any attack in Madhya Pradesh or Chhattisgarh. After that, all the Chhattisgarh people are seen in Madhya Pradesh. But this happens only with Kashmiris because it is an identity of Muslims. It is easy to incite people in the name of religion. It is shown that Muslims are Adiwadi, Algawadi. It is shown in this way. Similarly, you see that Article 370 has many provisions in Nagaland, Himachal Pradesh, many provisions in Goa. In Goa. In many places. There was a sure name because there is a Muslim majority population in Kashmir. So it is easy to incite people to see how special treatment is getting for Muslims. Another mainstream party for them, what do you think is going on? Will it exist? It is very difficult because we participate in assembly elections. We should have our own representation. We will fight for our rights. But when you reduced the assembly to a municipality, that is a question. But there is a bigger existential crisis than the elections. We have told 800 leaders to detain them. We did not know if they were verified or not. But there was a report saying that 800 leaders were arrested. So this is the same policy as Sheikh Mohammed Abdullah was the biggest leader of Kashmir. And the way he was turned upside down, there is no one to negotiate on the behalf of the people. Similarly, in 1987, when the Muslim front was closed and the people took the gun. The policy was to end the Kashmiri leadership. So any population negotiates on the behalf of the people. They say, come out of the house and protest. Our demand is complete. Now you sit at home. You don't need to protest. A leader negotiates on behalf of people. But the attempt always has been to kill Kashmiri leadership. And therefore no one has in control on the situation. Now it's very difficult for someone like me to tell people to protest or not to protest because we have not been consulted. No mainstream leader has been consulted. Former chief ministers have not been consulted. There are sitting members of parliament. In fact, the legislative assembly has been resolved. But the legislative council members, MLCs, they are still there. They have not been consulted. The governor has not been consulted. It is very difficult in those circumstances to lead people to anything because the center is not playing by the rules. So the issue is one of history. It is an issue of politics. It is partially an issue of failed development. And also the legal angle I would say. If we go by constitutional law, if we go by India's own constitution then this presidential order which abrogates Article 370 which sort of paves the way for the abrogation of Article 370 that is illegal. It is unconstitutional. And we are very confident of getting relief from the supreme court. We are moving the supreme court. And we are asking people you know we are asking Indian civil society to actually raise more awareness, to actually reach out to more people and explain to them what this issue is because yes, we are a very small population, sure, but we matter our lives matter. That is what we want to say. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for watching News Click.