 Okay, so we are currently in Toronto and Mr. Donald Worth's residence. The interviewer for today will be, as per usual, William McCrae, so we're just going to start off with a few easy questions. So could you please state your full name? Full name is Donald Joseph Worth. And what year were you born? I was born in 1932. Which would make you how old today? I'm 82 years old. And as a child, what did your parents do for a living? My dad was a mechanical electrical guy who worked in the mines and starting out in cobalt. And then moving up to the Prestonese dome mine in the porcupine and then finally with the Bruland reef mine where he was involved from construction of the plant to the shutdown. And your mom was out here? My mother came to Northern Ontario in the early 1900s by bulk on Lake Tamiscombe. They left Madawa and ended up in New Liskard on the bulk. The meteor, I think it was called. And that's where you were born? I was born in Halebury. Okay. And did you have any brothers or sisters? If so, how many? Yes, I had a half brother and half sister. My mother was married twice and I have a full brother. So there were four of us. And who was the oldest? The oldest was Gwen and then Howard and myself and then Douglas. Okay. And as a child, what did you do for fun or to pass the time? I did for fun. It was mostly things like road hockey and of course the Boy Scouts were starting there. When we moved up to the Timmins area by that time. So most of my time when talking about it aren't my time in South Parkupine and then eventually out at the Bruland mine town site. Okay. Yeah, I was in the Scouts a lot as well over five years. And you were saying that your dad was already in the mining business, but did you show or have an early passion for not necessarily mining specifically, but engineering or science or that vast domain? I think my early tendency was to go into something like teaching. But when I worked in the mine as a teenager after age 16, I could get their job summertime at the mine, I got attracted to mine operations. Okay. And was that, would you say that's thanks to your father or? It was, no, my father was, he didn't seem to think I should follow necessarily a career in the mining business or other ways of making a living. But no, I think if I was influenced by some of the engineers, mining engineers that I worked for as a student at the mine. Okay. And so after that job, you, did you head to university? Yes, after graduating from South Porcupine High School in 47, 48, I guess it was, we went down to the University of Toronto. Okay, and what did you take? I took, started out in mining geology. That was course number nine in the Faculty of Applied Science and Engineering. And then in my third year, I switched from mining, from geology to mining. Okay. What did you like or not like about the geology part? Well, the geology part, I thought the lifestyle there was something I wouldn't like too much. I had a girlfriend and they thought of leaving her in Toronto or South Porcupine in May. And then being back in September after the exploration season was over, was not a good way to live. I thought at least as a mining engineer, you got home every night for supper. Yeah, understood. So that's why it was, it was the influence of my wife to be now. Okay. So it wasn't, it had nothing to do with the classes or the subjects. It was really what the lifestyle was going to be. And were there in fact classes that you didn't like or did not do so well in? Well, I would think calculus was a tough one for me. Coming out of South Porcupine High School, we had never heard the word calculus. So it was all brand new to me. But luckily my roommate, who was a cohesion fellow from South Porcupine, he helped me out a lot and I was able to pass it. My favorite ones were of course the mining subjects like hydraulics and mine ventilation and mine planning, mine layout. That's what I liked the best. Okay. And what would you say was your first job, I guess professionally? What would be the start of your career? My first job professionally after summer work that I spoke about earlier, would have been for a little junior mining company looking for Uranium in the mid 50s, just after the discovery of Uranium at Elliott Lake. And that was a Sault Ste. Marie based company called Talvi Metals. And Talvi was financed by some private individuals from Detroit. And the money came up to Canada and we used it searching that area between Ranger Lake in the north of Sault Ste. Marie and Thessalon, which is partway towards Bland River. Then we ended up in Township 157 with a drill program on something we thought very Uranium, but it ended up strictly Puritite and Pyrite. Very, looked pretty good in the core, but had no commercial value. So that was my first work. And then from there I went back to school to take my masters. Okay. In the same subject? In Mineral Economics. It was part study of economics and part study of the mining business. Here's a question for you. What got you from the engineering more technical scientific aspect of it to the financial part of it? The head of the faculty or the mining department at Toronto had changed from to Professor Rice, Professor H.R. Rice. And he was a writer for the Canadian mining journal before taking this job. And his bent was towards middle economics. So he was the person, the new person that suggested for my thesis, why don't I take that kind of an approach. And so my thesis was called Mineral Trade Patterns in the Minerals Industries. And afterwards, after your masters, what did you do? Well, after the masters, the phone rang. I just got married at that time. Okay. And the phone rang at home. My wife, new wife answered it. And it was a lady from American Smelting and Refining, Senorita Fernandez. And she was calling from El Paso, Texas, where American Smelting and Refining had an office that controlled the operations that Asarco had in Mexico. And the proposition was, when you finish school in late April, why don't you come down and work in the state of Chihuahua for us, Asarco Mexicana. And so that was quite intriguing to me. The money wasn't big, but the idea of a foreign operation appealed to me. How long would that project be? Because you had mentioned in geology, you'd be gone a lot. Well, actually, that was the nice part about it. When we got on the bus, my wife and I headed from Toronto to El Paso, Texas. Okay, so she moved with you? Yes. Okay. And we ended up, we saw Mrs. Fernandez in El Paso. And the next day we headed by bus to Parral, Chihuahua. Parral, very well known because it's the place where Pancho Villa, the famous revolutionary in Mexico, was assassinated. So we're going to end up in Pancho Villa's town. And so when we got there, we found out luckily there'd be no rent to pay because the company had supplied a house on the mine town site. So it was really great for us. We didn't have any furniture to move down. The only expense that the Asarco had was the cost of two bus tickets from Toronto to Parral, Chihuahua. And so when we got down there, luckily the house that we were given was completely furnished. And it was just a great place to start a career. And what, if you could describe, I guess a regular day in that job, what would your day consist of? Yeah, a regular day in the job. The first six months, I didn't know any Spanish at the time. And to be a supervisor, you were going to be working in Spanish. So until I learned Spanish, I was an instrument man. That's running a transit and a dumpy level underground, surveying the various stoves and drifts and calculating the bonus that the miners would get. So I was a bonus engineer and an instrument operator for the first six months till I learned how to speak the language. And as soon as I learned to speak the language, then I was transferred into mine operations. First as a mine shift boss, working shifts. And then after six months of that, I became a mine foreman. And I had four or five levels and two or three shift bosses. And the shaft sinker crew was in my under under me at that time. So it was a very good way to grow up quickly because the chances of advancement in foreign operations was greater than it would have been back in Canada. And how long was the job in Mexico? The job in Mexico was for nearly three years. And then one day the mine manager came to me and said, Don, American spelling refining are going to get in the asbestos business. And they need a mining engineer back in Thetford Mines, Quebec. And we want to transfer you there. So I didn't really have much choice, but to take the transfer, I couldn't insist that I stay back in Paral. So we got moved from Paral Chihuahua to Thetford Mines, Quebec. And that was in mid or late 1957. So did you work in fact in the asbestos mines? Well, when I got there, the mine, the mill was only partly constructed. The mine development, the pre-production stripping and what had not started because we still were dredging the mud off the bottom of Black Lake. We had purchased a, we had acquired a dredge and a dredge contractor that had just finished up in Matacocan with steep rock. And they moved the dredge and the whole crew to Black Lake. And the first job was to remove 30 million cubic yards of sand and gravel and mud from the bottom of Black Lake. And at the same time, dewater the lake. And when I got there, it was only about two months left for the dredge. And then the job then was to move shovels and trucks in to finish cleaning the top of the ore body and getting it ready for mining. Because with an asbestos mine, you have to take every little bit of dirt off the rock because it will spoil the quality of the fiber. If you leave mud and sand and grit in with the rock that you're sending to the mill. So that was my first job there. Once again, back with the survey machine, because I didn't know French at that time. And the mine operated in French. So we had to learn quickly how to speak the language. And then when I did that, I was able to get into mine operation in the new pit that was being developed. And how were the safety and work standards in the 50s for a mine like that? Safety and the work standards were fairly good, although we used to get the safety engineer from New York City that has visited us twice a year to see how we were doing and if we were keeping up to the standards of the company. And we would depend on his assessment of how we were doing. But we would have safety meetings every week with the crews. And that was where I was necessary to be able to speak French. So that you could dialogue with the workers that were running the shovels and trucks. But we had a good safety record. And of course, as far as asbestos was concerned, it didn't seem to be an item that worried any of us at that time. No, it only became quite prominent I think in the, I think it was the 70s. It was in the right. In the mid 70s, a fellow called Dr. Selikov in New York City claimed that asbestos was killing people. Of course, the first target was John's Manville and then the rest of us. And was there, in your career, was there ever, can you recall a dysfunctional job you worked in? A dysfunctional job or a project that I had no like, oh, I would say that they were training me I remember, I used to go there at night after the shift was over and I had my supper. I would go back to the mill, the concentrator. And they were trying to teach me how an asbestos mill works so that if I was promoted further, I would have to know both the mining operation and the milling operation. And I didn't like the, maybe it was because it was such a long day, I would get to the mill about seven o'clock and they would, I would start home at 9.30, quarter to 10. Those two hours to me would went slow. So, weren't the most productive here? No, that's all right. And what would you say would be some of the biggest challenges you faced in your career? Biggest challenges, of course, I think came later with me and it was, had to do with the politics in Quebec. Well, that time we had children and the, the quiet revolution that started with, with, not with René Lavec with Mr. Massage. And at that time, it was, it was very hard for English-speaking people in Quebec to know what the future was for them. And, for instance, the, the English school that was in Tedford Bines, we were living in Black Lake and the thought was, well, you know, there will be a bus to take our children there. But no, there were no buses because they were, they were trying to encourage English-speaking people to have their children educated in French. So the, the quiet revolution in, in Quebec in the early to mid 60s was a kind of a disquieting thing for us. And then one day the phone rang, which provided a solution to that problem. And it was from Dr. William F. James, who was the director of the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce, and offering me a job as a mining engineer working for the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce. So that was, that was the, what do you do? Do you leave behind 10 years of mine operation experience and go into something that you know nothing about, i.e. the banking business? And, but we decided we'd do it because we thought it was best for our children in the long run. Okay. And that's when you came to Toronto? Yes. And can you talk a bit about that, about your new job in getting to Toronto? Okay, well, if the, when I got there the, it was just a year after the merger of the Imperial Bank of Canada and the Canadian Bank of Commerce to form the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce. And the chairman of the bank at that time was a fellow called Neil McKinnon, who was born, raised in Cobalt, Ontario, within the Great Silver District. And so Mr. McKinnon brought a mining flavour to the new emerged banks. And that was probably the reason why he decided to put a mining engineer on staff. And so the first years was learning about banking, how it works, how a credit is constructed, how does the process work, as to whether you make a loan or you don't make a loan. So a lot of the first year was spent in learning them, learning the banking business. And did you, did you most often in that career, did you most often deal with companies that had to do with your expertise in mining? Or did you deal with a variety of? No, I was, the accounts would be at the various branches that we had across Canada. At that time, I think we had nearly a thousand branches across, no it wasn't a thousand, it was 500 branches across Canada. And maybe 20 of those branches would have mining business. So you're mainly working with the mine manager, or the bank managers of those 20 branches. And of those 20, there were maybe four or five that were really important that had the big mining accounts. The main branch at 25 King Street West, the main branch in Montreal at the corner of, or right across near the Queen Elizabeth Hotel. And then there'd be Vancouver, Edmonton would have some mining business, Calgary because the oil companies were getting into that business. So you're dealing with the, both with the regional offices in Vancouver, in Toronto, and in Quebec, and the branches directly. And the thing was to find out the credit requirements of the various companies, not only our own, but also ones that were dealing with other banks, and then try to get that business to leave those banks and come with us. So that was the challenge there. Learn the business and then secondly, utilize what you knew you learned in school and in mining operations as to what comprise the good mine and the bad mine. Okay. And in mine finance, have you what have been in your opinion the most transformational deals in the industry? The most transformational deals in the industry at that time were the emerging low-grade, high-volume copper mines in British Columbia. And the first one of that ilk was Bethlehem Copper, Spot Eustace and others. Then along came Lornex and Gibraltar, and the one that Newmont had at Princeton, Semilchimene, I think it was called. And that was the transformational thing, changing your image of what makes a good copper mine from the 2% coppers that were small to the 0.4% copper disseminated deposits in British Columbia. That was transformational. The other transformational course that had hit me was the fact that the asbestos industry was not good territory to be in if you were a banker because you could see trouble on the horizon. So did you guys ever deal with asbestos or pretty much your career? Because you had worked in it already. Yes. Well, we put in an offer. There was an asbestos mine found in Matatchewan, Ontario by a gentleman, and they needed $35 million. But I didn't like the asbestos mine anyway that they had compared to what was in asbestos Quebec and Thunford mines. So we didn't take it anyway. But then another one we looked at was the asbestos mine in Australia that was being promoted by Canadians. And we didn't go into that one either. And throughout your career, did you join any either committees or organizations? The bank was very good to me and encouraged me in fact to get involved in the Canadian Institute of Mining and Metalers, CIM. And first I got involved at the branch level in Toronto who became the chairman of the branch there. And then later on after that I got involved in the finance committee of the CIM's paired body in Montreal. And then from there onto the council and then finally to be the president of CIM in 1996-97. And what kind of things did you do as president? As president my motto was membership was falling down. And we wanted to try and get the membership up. So my motto at that time was every member get a member. So we had 9,000 members now. And if every member got a member, we would double our membership. We didn't double our membership. So the CIM as president, you wanted to get a membership? Yeah, so we did it. Every member didn't get a member. But I think the initiative was successful. I think we got 300 or 400 new members. And that was enough to put us on a break-even position again because we're losing money at that time. So that was one thing that happened three months back as president. And at work, I mean you've had I guess completely different jobs throughout your career. But what were go-to social activities in your jobs? Or go-to social activities? Well, I would say some of them involved my wife because there's an association of women called the Mining Women's Association of Canada short form for it is WAMIC, W-E-M-I-C. And it started in the 1920s and involved the wives of mining people that were mainly located in Toronto while their husbands were out exploring for minerals all over the place. They used to go in and do charitable work. And when we got here, the fellow at the bank encouraged my wife to join WAMIC because we made a lot of friends of mining people through social activities that the Mining Women had. And one thing we did was every fall there would be a gathering at one of the farms and the outskirts of Toronto that were that was owned by a mining person. Charlie Mishner's farm came into mind. Mr. Stauvery's farm on Kennedy Road. And they used to have a fall fair there. And boy, in the organization of those various fall fairs, you got to know a lot of mining people. And so that was one thing that was a socially kind of a social highlight. And secondly, where some of the mining conventions that CIM had, you got to know people there. Were you there this this? This was my first year missing for a long time and my wife was in trouble and I had to be at home. The other thing that was good to get to know mining people internationally was the Commonwealth Mining Congress. And they met every four years. One year it was hosted by Great Britain and we got to see mines in Scotland and Ireland and England. And then another year it was in Australia. And we got to meet the Australian personnel. Another time it was in Southeast Asia. And all of those things were South Africa, another place. That's where we got to know mining people of international stature. So that was another way of getting to know the people in the industry. And that was an important part of it. Because the ore body is one thing, the people that are going to develop it is another thing. Any, what were the activities in Mexico? Activities in Mexico were square dancing of all things. And Pat and I learned how to square dance there. And the other thing was ballroom dancing. And the another thing was walking the plaza on a Sunday. And we learned the inert, in a courtesy of Mexican people. And at that time, of course, a young lady couldn't go to the plaza without having her mother and her grandmother or her mother or her older brother escort her. And all the men would walk one way and the women the other. And they would nod to each other. And then if the escort approved, they would allow them to go hand in hand across. So in a courtesy of the Mexicans at that time, it's a different Mexico now. That time was more genteel. But now it's terrible. We were back to Parral for a wedding five years ago. And all but one mind is closed in the Parral area. But the economy of Parral now is dependent on the drug trade. And we noticed all these F-154 trucks, beautiful trucks. Whereas when we were there, the men all walked to work or came by bicycle. So it's a different Mexico, a different Parral. And that was what that was the kind of things we did in Mexico. And we didn't do today. Yeah. And professionally, how was how present or absent were women in the workplace? Oh, yes. Okay. And we were just so delighted I was personally, and as the CIM person, the same way, to see the likes of Maureen Jensen, of Debbie McComb, of Pat who was our president, Pat Dillon, to see them come along. And to see women in mining start. And now the women, I talked before of Wame, into its 94th year, whereas the women that are mining there were the mining wives. But today, women in mining are the women who are working in the industry. Ladies like Samantha Esquith, Debbie McComb, Pat Dillon, all of those types. And it's just great to see women get involved. Of course, when I was in Mexico, it was still the mentality was that women brought bad luck to a mine. And we would not allow a woman to enter our mine in case it would cause a bad accident. And of course, the patron saint of Santa Barbara was the patron saint of mining. And that was about the only involvement of a woman had in the mining business. Last, I guess, last question along those lines, I was asking you about social activities. Were there any recurring or trending social problems in any mines of your work, like alcohol abuse or drug drug use? When I was in Mexico, we used to when I was on shift work in Mexico, I would notice that there were a couple of the people was mainly the Tauramara Indians that would come into Perala, get work temporarily in the mine. And they would bring marijuana into the mine. And a couple of times, I found the some of these the Tauramara Indians just had had too much marijuana. And we had to tell them to leave the mine and go home. So we did have a little bit of marijuana at that time. Alcohol drinking was not a big problem. A little bit of a problem in that many of the miners, they're only getting $2 a day. And we paid them every week. So they would be earning six days a week, $12, $25 pesos, $25 to make $2, $12 at the end of the and they would go to the cantina on their way home. We paid them cash at the mine. And some of them would spend half of their of their weeks pay at the cantina before they brought the other half home to their wife. So we had a little bit of that. In the in Quebec, marijuana wasn't part of the anything at that time nor drugs. A little bit of drinking there that you would expect. But you know, you'd see the odd miner stopping at the hotel 6.30, 4 to 7 in the morning, get a beer before you get to the mine. But that was fairly uncommon. No, not nothing of a moment. So we'll go back to your work in your later work in finance and I guess now a question of retrospect. But how do you explain and what do you think of the disappearance of companies like Inco, Falco, Stelco, DeFasco, all those Canadian companies? Yes, you could have mentioned the Randa and ones like that. You could have mentioned Phelps Dodge, Acerco, my company at work for all of them now. Yes, it's sad to see those beautiful names leave our industry. And you know, we still have tech resources, which was a combination of Kaminko and Tech. And I served on the board of Kaminko when Kaminko and Tech were put together on the committee that flushed out that deal. But no, it's so sad to see those names go on forever. But let's hope there's a crop of new ones like American Berry coming along that will take up the slack. And in retrospect, as a financial expert, how do you explain that trend or can you? I guess the trend is that some of the foreign companies like Extrata, like Kivali saw more value than the existing shareholders. Why their numbers would come up differently is I suppose they probably had a different view on metal prices. And oftentimes when you're in an operation, you see the challenges more than somebody coming from outside. So I guess just a more positive attitude towards mining by the people that took over. Okay. And this is a pretty tough question because it requires maybe a lot of thinking. But what would be, maybe I'll divide it in two parts. What would be the proudest moment in your life and then the proudest moment professionally in your life? The proudest moment in my life would be to see my older son doing well in the movie production business. And when the last one he worked on was Cabby, which was the movie of the fellow coming from East Asia, a doctor, and then becoming a taxi driver here in Toronto. But he did the music for that thing. Very proud of him for doing that. So that'd be one thing. And what was the other question? And proudest professionally. Professionally proudest would be to, I guess I could go back to right back to my time in Mexico to see productivity in the stopes at La Prieta Mine increase because of the changes in attitudes that some of our miners had and that I attribute myself to helping change those attitudes and to see productivity rise. That was one thing I got a great kick out of. But later on in the my career at the bank was to see CIBC as the number one mining bank of Canada that you helped to see us maintain that status for quite a while. And if you go back to the example you gave in Mexico, what was the change of mentality or mentality that you had too? A lot of it came through, we used to have a gathering after the shift and the same songs. And the Mexicans would never have, they called us the norte americanos or there's extrajeros. They'd never seen any of the foreign people that were supervising in the mines have anything to do with them after the shift was over. And so a lot of it had to do with that. So you really created more of a almost a family atmosphere. Yes, tried to do that. And if this is probably my favorite question, if you were speaking to someone much younger like me perhaps or a student or anybody like that, what would be the most important life lesson or piece of advice you would give them looking back at your life? A career in the mining industry would bring many side benefits, the opportunity to see the world. And not only to see the world in little Lombard Street in London or Chandelier in Paris, but to see the little towns of the world like the Broken Hill town in South Australia. And to see in the Papua New Guinea where that mine is, the Fly River, to see, to go and see that operation and to see the people that make up the workforce in those places. What other career would bring you this type of diversity in the mining business? An opportunity to see the world and get paid doing it. So are those all the areas you mentioned, those are areas you've seen? Yes, Tabu Bel was the one I was talking about, the famous Octeti mine and at the highest point in Papua New Guinea. And what would be the most, I mean you've traveled a lot, what would be the most memorable area you've traveled? I would say the mines of South Africa and to see the diamond mine that had one of the deepest shafts at the time, to see the variety of mines in South Africa, to visit the famous bold mines of South Africa and to again socialize with the operators of those mines as we did on the mining Congress. This was a three week tour of all of the mines in South Africa. Is there anything else you'd like to add or like to share or tell me? Right now one of the jobs I'm doing as a volunteer for the professional engineers of Ontario is they have an experience requirements committee and we interview immigrants to Canada to Ontario that are trying to get licensed as professional engineers. And that has been quite an enlightenment to me to see the kind of immigrants that are coming to Canada seeking careers in the mining business. And to say that in most cases we find them people that would be not presenting a hazard to anybody by designing a mine or operating a mining particular mine. And to see these people coming and adding to our professional workforce has been a nice thing for me in retirement. The other thing is learning how to be a corporate director and I've had, I'll just be retiring on Thursday from the board of Labrador Iron ore royalty. Well congratulations. Thank you. And so that'll be my last day of getting off because we're making room for ladies to take my place. And that's something that's happening in the corporate boards across Canada is get more women involved. And so it's going to be a new, as I, I'm 82 going at 83 as I said earlier and I'm down now to two, I'll be down two boards. Just the cornerstone capital was trying to find the copper mine in Ecuador and Sentry, which is a an investment company that creates mutual funds. So I'm down to those two boards now. And I hope to spend at least a couple more years doing board work. And that's been a nice, a nice third career for me. And how much time usually now does that take in a week? In a week, I would say you're into, on an average, there are some weeks where it's very little than other other weeks you're into 15 or 20 hours preparing for board meetings. And so this week I have two meetings, one tomorrow with Sentry. Oh, there's a telephone meeting too for a cornerstone. And then then the course of the retirement from Labrador. So this week could be maybe 15 hours spent. On an average, maybe five hours. Okay. And it's funny because all the people I interview who are, whether they're 80, 82, 85, 95, they never seem to be fully retired ever. It's like they say, the old saying is old bankers never die. They just lose interest. Yeah, exactly. Well, Mr. Orr, thank you very much for taking the time for this interview. Thank you. And we're just going to end it here. Thank you.