 All right, I'm going to open the doors. Hello and welcome everybody. Thank you all for coming to today's program, which features author, Debbie Lasker, reading from her acclaimed novel, The Atlas of Reds and Blues. I'm John Smolley and I'm a librarian with the San Francisco Public Library. While we're waiting for everyone to join us, I want to take a moment to acknowledge our community and to tell you about a few of our upcoming programs. On behalf of the Public Library, we want to welcome you to the unceded land of the Ohlone Tribal people and to acknowledge the many Ramatish Ohlone Tribal groups and families as the rightful stewards of the lands on which we reside and work. Our library is committed to uplifting the names of these families and community members and we encourage you to learn more about first-person rights. SFPL Summer Stride Literacy Program is continuing through August. Summer Stride is the library's annual summer learning, reading and exploration program for all ages and abilities. Join us for author talks, reading lists, book giveaways, nature experiences and more. You can register today by visiting our website, sfpl.org. On Wednesday, August 18th, San Francisco Chronicle film critic, Mick LaSalle will discuss his new book, Dream State, California and the Movies, referencing such films as The Wizard of Oz and La La Land. LaSalle will focus on a freewheeling humorous journey through big screen visions of the Golden State. On August 23rd, NPR editor, Malika Garib leads a workshop on the ins and outs of creating your own zine. And on August 24th, please come to the Total SF Book Club Program when authors Daniel Handler and Gary Camilla discuss their new anthology, The End of the Golden Gate. The next day on August 25th, Jim Van Busker and co-hosts present an illustrated talk on neon's luminous presence in cinematic representations of San Francisco. On August 30th, SFPLs on the same page book club meets to discuss award-winning author, Jacqueline Woodson's new novel, Red at the Bone. Lastly, on August 31st, author and photographer, John Lander shares his evocative images of temples from Japan's Shikoku pilgrimage trail. He will discuss the origins of the trail and the trail's significance for its thousands of annual pilgrims. So this concludes my announcements. Before I turn the microphone over to this program's featured author, Deville Lasker, I would like to say a few words of introduction about her and about our program. Deville Lasker is a native of Chapel Hill, North Carolina and she received an MFA from Columbia University. Nowadays, she's a proud Bay Area resident. Her best-selling book, The Atlas of Reds and Blues was her first novel. Today, Deville plans to read from her acclaimed novel and she'll also give a short talk about the process of building a sustainable writing practice. Deville's talk will be followed by a Q&A with your author. If you have any questions or comments for her, please put them in the chat and she will try to address these during the Q&A. Now please let us welcome Deville Lasker. Hello, thank you John and thank you to the San Francisco Public Library for having me. I am really honored to be here. I am going to do what I normally do when I give a reading. I want to first thank all of my teachers who've really shown me the way and helped me develop my writing practice and in particular when I was in graduate school I had the great honor of working with Lucille Clifton, the poet and not only was she a really great teacher but she was a wonderful friend and so I'm going to read a poem of hers and then I'm going to read a few minutes from my book and tell you a story. So the poem that I chose for today is something that I think will resonate in this time. Won't you celebrate with me? Won't you celebrate with me what I have shaped into a kind of life? I had no model, born in Babylon, both non-white and woman, what did I see to be except myself? I made it up here on this bridge between starshine and clay, my one hand holding tight my other hand. Come celebrate with me that every day something has tried to kill me and has failed. So I'm going to read to you a small section from the Atlas of Reds and Blues and then I'm going to tell you a little story about it. Perhaps it was the spectacle of mother nature, the special science field trip in the 11th grade. On the very day her sister misses school because of food poisoning. Someone had laced the brownies with X-Lex at the neighborhood picnic the afternoon before. A moment of unparalleled beauty. Their physics teacher consults the newspaper, puts 60 of his students on the yellow school bus, finds his driver's cap. After lunch on a given Monday, they are driven for an hour to a particular field of tall grass just outside Greensboro. Like a master magician, he pulls out 60 special mylar glasses from a black canvas bag. His students use the special devices to track the moon as it crosses over the sun. The last lunar eclipse in the late 20th century. Even without the glasses, she knows something is happening. As the sky darkens, the birds fall quiet and the air takes on a strange stillness the second midnight. It is as if each of the clocks in the world folds hands together. Namaste. The divine light in me sees the divine light in you. Several minutes later, as the light returns, the birds make a furious noise, heralding the day for a second time. Then a whole swarm of them abandon their trees by the edges of a field and fly away. She is 16 and almost believes she will never again see anything quite so beautiful. So this story has a pretty long arc. In the 90s, well, before that, I was an academic brat in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. I grew up there and I wrote my first bad poem in Mrs. Heats, fifth grade class. It was a terrible haiku. And when I went to UNC as an undergrad, I settled on journalism. I was pretty nosy and wanted to understand why things worked and how things worked. So I settled on journalism. And so for a while, I was a crime reporter. And then when my kiddos came along, I really couldn't do crime reporting anymore because crime just doesn't happen between 8 a.m. and 5 p.m. It happens between 5 p.m. and 8 a.m. And it's hard to do with three kids in tow. So I kind of went back to my first love, which is poetry, and then writing my stories. And in the meantime, along the way, I had stopped it in New York and I had studied for a couple of years at Columbia and I had the pleasure of working with Lucille Clifton and some others. And so in 2004, I was told by a friend about this writing conference, this workshop in California. And it was at the community of writers in Olympic Village. And she said, you know, you should apply. And so I was like, okay. So I had this old story about arranged marriage and truth be told, I was gonna slide that one in as my submission and move on my merry way. And my friend got whiffed that I was turning in old work and she said, you may not. You have to write something new. And so I said, well, all I'm doing right now is taking care of the kids and the dog. And she's like, great, write about that. So I wrote a 5,000 word short story and it was the genesis of this book. And so it was pretty well received. I went home and I worked on it for a few more years and it became really, really big and crowded with voices. And then I set it aside to do NaNoWriMo. And so I worked on a different book and then unfortunately in May of 2010, about six weeks before I was gonna finish that other book, my husband was profiled, racially targeted by his former employer in Georgia and the state police did raid our house. And among the things that they confiscated was my computer. So I lost the bulk of my work. As you can imagine that was a bummer. And for the first year, I wasn't really doing that much writing. I was trying to corral my family. But then in 2011, I was like, I'm a poet. I should sit down and write. And I found that I could not. So I have a really good friend in Atlanta and she gave me some really good advice, which I took. She knew I was a photographer. And so she said, you know, if you take a picture every day and you post it and you caption it or title your photo, then, and you do this every day as a sustained practice, your words will come back, I promise. And so I started on June 23rd, 2011. I do it to this day. I take a photo every day and I post it. And within a year by 2012, my poetry had come back. And then in 2014, my prose came back and I was delighted and thrilled. And I decided I was gonna sit down and rethink the story that I had written way back when. Only this time, I wasn't really writing a family story because I had changed as a person and I had changed as a writer and my writing interests had changed. So I wanted to have this family of color in the Deep South. I still wanted that. And I really loved my mother characters like kept her. And only at this time, I was gonna have her squarely meet up with racism and misogyny and being invisible in America and have those two worlds collide. And it took me two years. I wrote this book in two years every day for a few minutes. And then towards the end of 2016, I finished and then the... Then, unfortunately, because of the election, everyone became quite distracted and it took... And for the next year, I tried really hard to sell this book and I had no luck. And so I was about to give up and go do something else when a good friend of mine, her book launch was happening and she asked me to come and support her. So I did. And this poet that I know, she came there and she asked me about my book. And as all writers know, when someone asks to read your book, you don't stop, right? You're like, of course you can read my book. Let me get it for you. And she was like, wait, I don't read anything on a tablet or a computer. I'm very old school. I want you to print it out for me and send it to me. And I was like, okay. So that was Veterans Day of 2017. So I went home and of course my printer was dead. And so I called the coffee store and I sent it off to her. And then I didn't hear from her. So Thanksgiving came and went and then Christmas came and went. And then New Year's Eve, I was back East visiting my family when I got this email. And she was like, you know, I really like your book. Can I show it to a friend? And I'm like, sure. And so that was New Year's Eve. And then the next week, I actually went to Mexico for a writing workshop because I'm a bit of a professional student. And all I had was my phone, a piece of paper and a pencil. I didn't take my computer. And so then midway through my conference, she wrote me again. And she was like, somebody from Counterpoint Press would like to read your book, but they refused to read the hard copy. Can you send them a electronic copy? And I was like, I don't know how to do that. I literally looked at my phone for about 15 minutes because I know as a writer that these kinds of opportunities don't grow on trees. And so I know that if I don't take care of it, it's gonna go away. So I stood there for a while and then I remembered the copy store. And so I called them from Mexico and I asked them if they by chance and still had my file and they did, they hadn't deleted it yet. And that was just so lucky on my end. And so I was able to send it. And then I didn't hear from them for another 10 days. And by this time I just returned and I re-entered the United States. And they wanted to know the context and why I wrote the book the way I did and what the context was. And by this time all the charges had been dismissed against my spouse and the New York Times had written a story about us. And so we were, I was able to share that with them and give them context. And then another 10 days went by and then I got a phone call and they offered to publish this book. And so I got my contract signed on February 5th, 2018. And then on February 5th, 2019, it came out. And I have to say, I wasn't sure as a 52 year old debut novelist that what people were gonna do with this book and if anybody was going to read it. And I have to say that all the praise but also all the strangers who have read this book and have contacted me and told me how much this book has meant to them has been really like heartwarming. I just didn't know if people were interested but it seems that they are. And I think the timing is really good in terms of, I wrote this book because I think this country is at a turning point. I think that because of what has happened especially in the last five years, racism is on the forefront of everyone's mind. And I know that it's really hard to talk about racism and misogyny and it's really hard to, without both sides feeling intact and getting defensive and shutting down. And I'm just hoping that this book continues to open doors and start conversations because that's how real change takes place. So I wanted to talk a little bit about a couple of my decisions that I made for this book. And then I wanted to tell you a little bit about a sustainable writing practice. So for example, the family is not named. They have titles, right? But they don't have names. And I did this for a couple of reasons. I come from a Bengali family and we always have these relational titles. And so for a long time, I didn't know what anyone's real name was because I never called them by their names. And I wanted that kind of intimacy for my family in the book. And so I wanted to keep that. But the other reason why is because in the world of this book, the family, the main family and the main protagonist, she's other and she is invisible. And so it is impossible for me to have named them because no one in the world of the book would have cared to learn their name or remember it. So that was that decision. Another decision was, you know, for me to do something called Aristotle's incline. That is the structure of the book. It's the structure that screenwriters use to tell their stories when they write a script. I'm in a long-standing writing group and one of my colleagues is a screenwriter. And so when she introduced me to this form, I was really excited and I'm also a poet. And my favorite poetry form is Pantum, which is a braided narrative that repeats. And so those two things really worked for my mother character because she has been shot by the police and she is lying on the driveway. And so she is unable to get up and have conversations and do things. So this form was appropriate for the book and for her story. And so I was really grateful I was able to look at that. And I know that somebody had asked me before like why I have tackled Barbie dolls in this book. And the reason why is, you know, I am the daughter of an academic and I was really lucky when I was growing up. My dad got a sabbatical in Europe one year when I was seven and eight. And everywhere we went in Germany and France and Spain, you know, people would ask, where are you from? And I would say America. And they in the 70s, you know, in the mid-70s, they would be like America, land of the Barbie dolls and Coca-Cola. Cause in their mind back then, all American households, when you turned on the kitchen tap, you, Coca-Cola would pour out. And in their minds, every American girl had 100 Barbie dolls. And truth be told, I had none until the young lady across the street threw a temper tantrum one day and put all of her Barbie paraphernalia and her dolls on the curb and shared it with everybody in the neighborhood. And so I had some hand-me-downs. But, you know, as I was growing up and then now with kids of my own, I think Barbies are a really bad toy. They are anatomically incorrect. They're anatomically impossible. But also they teach that women should look a certain way, that they hold a certain strange standard for beauty, but also they teach silence and that women should be silent and women should be passive. And I just don't think it's a great toy. So I really wanted to tackle that because I think it's really important, you know, that we kind of address things that we sort of take for granted, but that also send a really terrible message. And so I wanted to discuss that. So I think I'm going to spend the next few minutes talking to you about my writing practice and then I'm going to give you a writing assignment. So I have done something called I started something called the spiral notebook technique. And so over the years, I studied with a lot of people, mostly poets and of course I used to be a reporter. So I've spent the majority of my life being told to keep it short. And so I think that literary compression or trying to keep things like brief or compressed is actually the way to go. I think a lot of, you know, I think we just don't have a lot of time, you know. And so, you know, I just don't think people have time to read like 800 pages these days, but everybody has time to read a short book. And so I started something called the spiral notebook technique. It's based on people like Natalie Goldberg's writing down the bones, but also Kenneth Asherty's a writer's time. And then my poetry teacher, Lucille Clifton. And Lucille was a big believer in oral tradition. So she had this way of teaching us, which I'm going to share with you. That also talks about, you know, hearing what you've read and if you do it in the right way, if you write a certain amount and then you read it back to yourself, you can actually sort of jumpstart your writing and sustain it and keep it going. So the spiral notebook technique is that you set a timer for 10 minutes a day for a month and you find your nearest ugly single subject spiral notebook. And the deal is it can't be something really expensive and it can't be a gift that somebody gave you because the idea is to make it as ugly and unappealing as possible so that it becomes a tool. But if you actually use a gift like a really expensive journal or a gift from a relative, then you're just putting extra pressure on yourself as you try to write. So the idea is to get something really cheap and ugly and you 10 minutes a day set the timer. And I know it's very hard to say, you know, write about anything because that means you're writing about nothing. Anything is too big, right? It's like the word everything, it's too big. So what I have done and it is free is I have gone to poets.org and I have borrowed a line from whoever the poet of the day is and that is usually my starting off point. I borrow a line, that's my jumping off point. I set the timer for 10 minutes. I do this every day for a month. Obviously some days you'll want to do more and that's fine, but please do it for 10 minutes at least. And then a couple of things. I know that most people in the interest of saving paper, right all the way across the page. And I don't want you to do that. I want you to do something called vertical writing, which is four to five words per line. And then push your pencil down, put your pen down and keep going down the page. If you keep your words to just four or five words per line and you go as fast as you can for 10 minutes without stopping, your brain just speeds up and you'll, you'll, you'll just accumulate more ideas. And then the other thing that Lucio always taught us to do, which I am going to share with you is that, you know, most writing, like, and, you know, like most photography, obviously you really rely very heavily on your eyes, right? So, you know, you, you can do that. Many people have just written very visual work and it's been successful, but you can really elevate your writing. If you can include two more senses into it, it becomes experiential. You find that you're, the reader is there with you when you do that. And the two easiest ones to do are smell, right? And hearing. So ambient noise is easy because every place that you are, or that your character is, there is ambient noise. Somebody's either cooking something or yelling at each other or the TV is on or the wind is wrestling. So that's easy. And then every room has a smell or every place has a smell. And if you could just add a little indication of what it smells like and what it, not only what it looks like, but what it smells like and what you hear, then you'll find that your writing has taken on a whole new depth and it has become much more experiential. So I'm going to give you a writing assignment. I'm going to get you started. So today is your day one. And then the other thing I just wanted to say before I give the writing assignment is that at the end of the 30 days, via Kenneth Acherdi, what I, he wrote this book called A Writer's Time. And to sum it all up, basically he's a big believer in taking breaks and vacation and that you get your fresh eyes that way. So take a week off after your one month of writing. And then when you come back to your notebook at the end of that one week off, come with the highlighter pen. And I want you to read every word you've written out loud to yourself. And this is the Lucille Clifton magic coming in. What, what will happen is what sounds good to you as you're reading your work out loud. I want you to highlight. And you will find that at the end of doing that, that you have your own personal book of wonder, you know, it's got writing prompts in it. It's got poems and essays and the start of a longer story. It's got all sorts of stuff in it. You just have to give your subconscious a chance. And the other thing I wanted to just say is that those 10 minutes, I just want you to write. I don't want you to lift your pen up. Because then later you are not going to remember how you got out of what you were thinking. Like most people do that. And I do that too. But what you want to do is as you're writing, if you get stuck, write, I am stuck. Write it as many times as you want. But don't lift your pen up to think. Because then later, when you go back, you won't remember how you got yourself out of it. But if you keep it on the page, then later you'll, you can go back and see how you got yourself out of it. And you won't do it again. So, um, so I'm going to. Give you a writing prompt and give you a few minutes to write. And then I will, um, And then maybe I'll answer some questions. Okay. So one of my favorite books in the world. Is, um, This book, it's called the vertical interrogation of strangers. And it is by Ponyo Kapil. Who is a wonderful, um, Indo-British poet. And this book is really cool. She's got several books, but this one's really great. Cause it asks, um, So the premise of this book supposedly is that she went. Back to India and she interviewed several people. Over the course of some time. And she asked each of them 12 questions. And then she took their answers and she made them. Um, Into poetry. And then she took their answers and she made them into poetry. Now the questions are such that the answers don't match. And actually that is where the poetry is taking place. But I love these questions. And so, um, What I wanted to do was I wanted to give you a few of these questions. And then I was going to give you some vocabulary words. And then have you, um, and have you write for 10 minutes. All right. So I'm going to, uh, let's see. Who are you and whom do you love? Hang on. Let me see. How will you begin? And I'm also putting them in the chat. How will you live now? What are the consequences of silence? And what do you remember about the earth? So, um, One of my teachers, um, Was Janet Fitz, who wrote white willy under and, um, She wrote this, uh, she has this wonderful talk about landscape. So, um, and then, uh, one of my friends, uh, She wrote this thing called the vertical paragraph. So let's try that. Um, so what that means is you want to look at, uh, whatever you're going to be writing about, I would strongly urge you to write about somebody's kitchen. Because it's easy to do taste and smell and hearing in a kitchen. And, um, And also everybody eats. So everybody's got a kitchen story. But, um, so try that in the, in a kitchen context. But, um, The vertical paragraph is that you start really big. Like you, you give us the landscape. So what the neighborhood looks like or what the house looks like. And then you narrow it down for the next set of sentences, Which is like what the room looks like. Right. And then the very last part of that paragraph is what's on the plate. Right. Or what's in the glass. And what are they drinking? Right. So that's just a thought. So I'm, I started my timer. You've got 10 minutes go. So I'm going to, um, Um, just, uh, read off of that. So I'm going to, um, um, just, uh, read off some sentences. And you're welcome to borrow the language, like any of the words that I use, um, and incorporate it in your writing or your more than welcome to ignore me. Rain. Blood. Eucalyptus. Sip. Tea. Practice. Women. Spring. Dissolve. Orange. Sky. Throat. Shoulders. Sage. Delicious. Delirious. Drizzle. Mushroom. Slice. Turquoise. Nest. Wing. Charcoal. Temple. Her blue dress. The green paint. Geometry. Pairing knife. Bitten. Hotel. Alphabet. Violet. Copper. Syrup. Set sail. Brain smoke. Snap. Piss. Clack. The street shines. Translucent. Cells. Bar shore. Swim. Irises. Silk. Tape. Lunar. Slope. Music. Silence. Forehead. Mood ring. Starlings. Indigo. Iridescent. The phrase. Give me back. The phrase is. I want. And I remember. Or. I used to. Start a sentence with. America. Smolder. Oblivion. Face. Glittering. Pleasure. Moonless. Regret. Variation. Field. Decision. And then there's something called a nafra, which is you. You start every sentence the same way. So I want. This. Or I want that. Or. You never this. Or I don't remember that. But if you do it three or four times in a row, that often builds up. And. And you get something pretty good. Another book that I really enjoy. That I think. You, you should check out. It's called the poet's companion. And it's edited by the poets. Kim. And Dorianne locks. And Dorianne locks. And. Those are 10 minutes. So you have just done day one. Of. The spiral notebook technique. You have 29 days to go. And, but as I was saying. I hope you'll stick with it. I think you can really start a really wonderful writing practice. And I'm really excited for years to come by doing it. So this book is lovely. It's called the poets companion. And in it, there are wonderful. Wonderful writing exercises and discussions about writing. And they're not just for poets. It's for anybody who is really interested in writing and. Once to really. Dive deeply into onto the. Sentence level. So that's it for me. Thank you so much. And if you have any questions, I'd love to answer them. Everyone. We're here. If anyone from the audience wants to ask questions, please. Yeah, I have a question for you. Sure. You know, I found that your novels prose is very dramatic really right from the first sentence. But I also, you know, notice your language is very poetic. And it's rhythms and images. And you've been speaking a poetry. Are you still writing poetry these days? I am. I am. I actually. Just finished the summer. I went to virtually. I attended the community writer's workshop. And so yeah, I'm still writing my poems. It's, it's just become a habit. I really enjoy, but it just helps and helps to. Just get my thoughts on the page and it helps me to deep dive on longer work. Great question. Thank you. I see something. So Marina asked how long it took me to complete the book. And I experienced writer's book. Okay. So yes. So I, the second time around when I rethought this book, it took me two years. And so, you know, there were definitely moments where I was had writer's block and, you know, and so I, I would do this. I would do this spiral notebook technique. I would write every day for a certain amount of time and try and jumpstart it. And it usually worked. And it's really just a practice, you know, you know, doctors do something called medical practice. Right. Because it's not called medical perfect. And writers, especially. I, I just feel like most writers really need to write every day because that's what we do. And even if it's just for a few minutes, it's just great to be engaged with our work, but writing is just not you sitting down and writing. It's also like you thinking about your work and you reading. And I definitely count reading as part of my writing practice. I'm a voracious reader. I love the public library. When, especially when I was young, I, I used to go to the library every week. I lived to go to the library and, and, and, you know, check out all the books and it was fantastic. And I strongly urge everyone to do that. And then it's just practice, right? When you're feeling blocked really, you just need to write that down. I'm feeling blocked. And then I, I, I was in high school last year. I taught this high school student. I was in a high school last year. And, and he was like, well, what if I want to curse? And I said, great. I want you to write down every bad word you know. For the next 10 minutes. And then I promise that the sentence that comes after that will be fantastic. And you'll keep it forever because you'll have gotten it all out of the book, especially when you're feeling like you can't write. To just write. I can't write as many times as you can. And eventually you'll, you'll work your way out of it. And then there was another question saying that the situation sounds very traumatic. Did you harness this for the book? And so. Yes and no in the sense that I, I don't really believe in catharsis. Nothing I write will ever make me feel better. But I was glad that I. Was able to write and that because of my photography practice that my words came back. I was glad I was able to put my. Story onto the page. Because I wasn't sure I was going to be able to write this book. And so. I think that. It's, you can write about anything you want. And it just takes, it's just practice and time. And. I think that if you treat whatever topic you're writing about with a little dignity and compassion. Then the, then the. Story does come eventually. Great question though. Thank you. Anybody else. Oh hi. Yes. Yeah. I'm sorry. Donna said, are you working on a new novel and looking forward to reading here? Thank you. Yes, I am. Actually, my next book is coming out in May of next year. May of 2022. It's called circa. And it's a novel. It's another short novel. And, and so I am finishing up that right now. And I'm also trying to finish up three. And then I'm going to go ahead and go ahead and talk about the storytelling of Mrs. Dalloway, but from an ethnic point of view. Great question. Thank you. Does anybody want to. Yeah, please. Go ahead. I'm going to talk to, I'm sorry. Yes. And since you're talking about the poetry, I just wanted to plug. Next Friday, Saturday. Sorry. This Saturday, the 14. We'll be celebrating our past Polaroid Janice. Mary Katani who passed away. And there is going to be. Poet Laureate the lore. So please come out for that. And it's going to be a real special time. I'm sure. So I just popped that in the chat. Oh, thank you. Thank you. And I'm, I'm leaving. Thank you. Yeah. I'm looking forward to that myself. You know, the thing is, you know, because, because we have libraries and because we also have good goal. We, we will always be able to access. A way of, of like a writing prompt. Right. I had a teacher once who. Who made us do this really interesting exercise. It's, um, You take, uh, you take your age. So, uh, like your 10, your 20, your 30. So you write about something, um, shameful that happened to you at 10, something, uh, wonderful that happened to you at 20, something, um, sad that happened to you at 30. And, but you give yourself exactly three minutes each. Right. So give yourself a year, three minutes. And then three minutes, three minutes. And then when you read it back later, you'll find that your subconscious has somehow. Done tic-tac-toe. With that. And, um, and this is the guy. His name was Gil Dennis and he's passed away, but I did his workshop once, um, and it was really amazing the, you know, you'd have to give yourself the ages, right? And then give yourself an emotion, shame, regret, you know, wondrous joy and, and, and then go three minutes each. And it's amazing. Like what comes, right? And it all sort of fits. And you have no idea how you did that, but you can do it over and over again. And it really works. Um, and he's the one that wrote, um, um, Walk the Line. He's a screenwriter among us, other things. And he wrote Walk the, he was one of the writers for Walk the Line, the Johnny Cash movie with, um, Joaquin Phoenix and Reese Witherspan. Yeah. It was really good advice. Debbie, you've given us so many books too. I just wanted to tell the folks how to save the chat. If you don't know. Um, and John has been putting links in like mad. So you could just right click on those three dots. To the right of the chat. And there's a save chat. And you can have all those links. Check out all the folks. Great. Yeah. John, do you have any last words? Unless anyone else has. I just want to express my appreciation for, uh, for sharing your ideas on prompts. Also. Uh, you touched a little bit on, on editing or revisiting material that you've written. And after setting it aside for a little bit of time, I think that's also useful. Uh, knowing how to, um, refine what you've written. Yeah, I want to, yeah, I just want to say something about that, you know, as you're doing the spiral notebook technique, please don't go back and look at it. Because that's the whole point. It's just to keep moving forward because you really can't fix the beginning until you actually reach the end. Right. And, um, and there's nothing like fresh eyes. And the only way you get there is by taking a break. You know, it's so hard because when you're really excited about something, you know, you want to go back and fix it. But actually that, that is counterintuitive. And I've learned that the hard way. And so I've turned perfectly good ideas into haiku. So, um, so, yeah, thank you. Um, thank you for reminding me to, to say that. Okay. Well, you're welcome, Marina. Hope it works out. And if you don't have a, if you started today on just a loose piece of paper, you can, you can tape it into your spiral notebook tomorrow. The reason why I really believe in the spiral notebook is because most people don't rip those things out, right? Um, it's, it's not easy to rip out, but also it's all in one place just by default. So you won't lose it. I think we can maybe call it, huh? I threw in one last plug because you know, I just can't resist. No, we, I was talking to this, we have a writing group. Um, and, uh, I just popped it in there, the hatchery nurturing writers of color. And every writer that comes in is always like, take a writing class, take a writing seminar. And, you know, sometimes, especially the free library, people can't always just afford to take a free writing, a writing class, right? They're not, they're not cheap. Right. So as everyone looked to your local library, we have this stuff. And as we continue to open and roll a little more, that we'll get more things like this, but this one is very fun. And you know, um, it's nurturing. Like it says. I want to plug, uh, the San Francisco public libraries collection of poetry. Also we have in the neighborhood of 50, 60,000 volumes in English plus thousands more and 41 other languages. So check it out. And tons of things also on e-book, e-audio book. There's lots to explore. Uh, if you have access to the catalog. So thank you, Debbie, for a marvelous program. Uh, really enjoyed your things and your, your wisdom. Uh, on the writing practice. Thank you for sharing. Thank you. Have a good evening. Back again. All right. Great. All right. Take care.