 Welcome back peeps. This is the anxious truth episode number 175175 Recorded September of 2021. I am Drew lincellata creator and host of this vine podcast today We are talking about self-compassion Actually, the title of this episode is the art and importance of self-compassion because it's important. This is a big deal It's a big topic. You see it everywhere in online mental health circles, but I gotta be honest with you I kind of think a lot of us don't really fully grasp what this is or understand what it is in practical terms And in practice what self-compassion looks like full disclosure. I don't think I did either I'm still learning and I learned a tremendous amount in doing this episode. Why did I learn so much because we have a guest That's why my friend and frequent collaborator working therapist newly minted author Kimberly Quinlan is here Kim is the author of the self-compassion workbook for OCD which just hit the shelves and it is outstanding We're gonna talk about that but Kim is here to educate us and explain what self-compassion is and isn't what it looks like in a practical standpoint and How it gets incorporated as an enhancing factor in recovery, especially ERP Therapies for OCD and anxiety disorders and really how it fits into life in general Tremendously useful interview. I learned a whole lot Hopefully you guys will too and you'll enjoy it as much as I did So let's get right into it and at the end I will come back wrap it up give you all Kim's links and all the good stuff So here we go As promised here. She is the one the only Kimberly Quinlan Oh, it's so good, it's like you and I have never done this before but clearly we have Let you know a little secret an hour ago Kim and I recorded another episode of our podcast. So this is just Monday for us Anywho, let's talk about this project of yours, which just I mean as I'm reading it just blew me off my chair It's so good and let me tell everybody if you follow Kimberly, which I'm guessing if you listen to the podcast There's a really good chance you already know who Kimberly is but She really is that person like she really when she like posts, you know, hello, dear one. She ain't kidding like You are shining through in this book. I like I'm smiling ear to ear as I'm reading it. So Yeah, so let's talk about it. It's called the self-compassion workbook for OCD and What made you write this book? How does it fit into your life? Where did this come from? Yeah, so number one, thanks for having me Way before I feel like life is pre-pandemic and post-pandemic so pre-pandemic the publishers reached out and and and Asked me to write a different book and we went through the whole process of Planning to prep this book and just before we're about to really get into the the hard work She said before we start it. I really want to check in. Is there any other topic you would prefer to talk about? You know, is this the topic and I was like, yeah, no, that's not the topic at all the topic I really want to talk about is I want to address a massive problem that we have without people who have OCD the OCD community is they are Completely overwhelmed with self-criticism and self-judge judgment And we have to address this problem. This is such a huge issue And that's what I wanted to write and she it went she went silent for like two seconds And she's like, yeah, let's scrap the whole idea and let's write that book That's a good story and you know it's funny because as I'm beginning to read it in the beginning of the book It seems clear to me like I'm immersed in this stuff, you know a day in and day out Not at the level you are with OCD, of course, but I'm like, how come I've not heard this before So this book needed to be written. Yeah. Yeah, so I'm really so proud of it. I I just poured every conversation I have had with clients into the book I tried to just address all of the major roadblocks that show up and this isn't just for people with OCD This is I think for people with any mental struggle. Yeah, there are so many roadblocks to Treating ourselves with kindness and compassion. And so that was my agenda Yeah, very good. Now, this clearly is something that It comes again shining through. This is a personal topic for you This isn't just like this is my job as a clinician Tell me about this clearly. This is at the core who you are It's it is it's funny you mentioned that Why I think that the thing that hits me so deeply it well, I'll put it simply this is my church I have always said it and it's This is where when I'm talking with people about pain and suffering. It's when I feel the most connected it's when I feel like The most at peace with myself and I'm sure there's a lot of my own personal struggling in that and that when I'm with someone else who's struggling we can just be real and we can be safe and we can be One and one and another we can just be with each other and that's where I feel the safest And so writing this book I Tried to just get to like the darkest stuff that we have to address and And really kind of come to a place where we can tenderly Make space for that and also care for that. Yeah This was a big part of your own journey Is Even though I consider myself now to be an incredibly Compassionate person for other people and for myself There's I have to constantly we talked about this in your episode. I have to constantly be Keeping check on this automatic Me like not mean girl, but like Machine inside me that wants to crank out Stuff and so for me, this is just a constant practice that I have to engage him Yeah, it's so interesting because when we were talking earlier, you said, yeah I had no self-compassion for myself when I was writing the book about self-compassion Which so you you have like the propensity to possibly fall into those old habits sometimes Yeah, I mean, I think that this is the point of this this point comes across in the book is I'm incredibly compassionate to myself Until I have to do something that is very hard, right? And so I've musted many things in my life. I've musted Being a therapist and I must have been a wife and I must I'm muster in being a parent but Something like writing a book I've never done before and so it was shocking to me the amount of self-criticism and Judgment and fear and doubt and it was all around like oh, okay This is because I haven't done it before and it's really really really hard And so it was catching That in myself and also catching that this is what's showing up in most of my patients because they're handling something They've never had to do before and they're handling something that society has told them is bad Yeah, and they have to do really hard things. I mean clearly Those of you know Kim believe her to say hard things zillions of times Yeah, and so that's where it comes out when like confronted with really difficult things that we will stumble on And stumble over there's that self-criticism and that that harsh judgment that comes out Is that what you found in the OCD population? Automatically like it is so automatic, right? So think about and this is true for any anxiety I think but when we have a sensation that is painful or a thought that is gross and you don't want to have it It's unwanted or you have an urge I think naturally our brain's Instincts is to say no that is wrong. We shouldn't have that you're you know What kind of human being would have such a thought feeling sensation or urge or image and so naturally we go there, right? But then what we also what we want to catch in this and what I tried to get to at this book is It it's natural for that to be our first instinct, but you don't want to add feel to the fire You don't want to then throw in six extra criticisms and then tell you know Really ruminate and then start to move into what we call self-punishment. Now. I this is where I really Felt this was so important is a lot of my patients Punish themselves for their anxiety as if they haven't been through enough already, right? It's heartbreak. They put in it's heartbreaking It is yeah, it is I get teary just talking about it They they have to go through these really uncomfortable things and they have to go through treatment, right and Then they often the one it's very subtle right self-criticism and self-punishment can be so subtle Like I'll say to a patient like you know go and celebrate this exposure and they'll go no You know, that's it. There's a waste of my time You know, I shouldn't even need to do this exposure and I'll say no go out go out and do something nice And then they'll go and do something nice and they'll come back and I'll say what did you do? And they'll say oh, I just went and You know picked up some flowers and I'll say oh, that's nice, right? Tell me about the flowers. Well, I got the cheap ones Yeah, right. So it's subtle. It's it's oh why why didn't you get the ones you really love because I don't deserve those You know what I mean? Yeah, and so there's this withholding of pleasure that also happens for a lot of people because they're suffering and so You know, it's it can spread into many areas of your life Yeah, and I could see why the way you laid the book out is really exceptional too because we hear the word The term self-compassion is used all the time like I cannot fly her up my Instagram feed without seeing that word over and over And over which is great. It should be that right But the word itself it sounds good and it sounds like oh just be nice to yourself But you really dig in so like no no no no this is really how you learn To be self-compassionate and so that's a good example where you know, somebody you're telling somebody go ahead and celebrate your victory and They they minimize the celebration. So self-compassion is not an automatic thing for most people is it? No, no We're taught the opposite. We're taught to pull up our bootstraps and you know I can't tell you how many times on social media if I post on self-compassion almost every time someone will say that will Make me a narcissist and and I'll and I say if if compassion is making you narcissistic That's not compassion at all. Yeah, right. It's not it's not about self-absorption It's it's very simple actually self-compassion is just holding space for what you're Struggling with in a warm in a warm environment instead of a critical environment It's very very simple, but what it's not is letting yourself off the hook And that was the point I have wanted to make a like in the first three pages, right? Which is Self-compassion in our you know, we've talked and you've talked about like facing your fears Self-compassion is not saying I don't have to face my fears Self-compassion is saying I will face my fears because I deserve for fear not to run my life Yeah, you said that early on in the book. I actually when I said I took notes Which I rarely do for podcast self-compassion is not flowers and unicorns you wrote and I'm like Really really good and in fact one of the interesting things is you kind of you guide the reader through case studies I know that they are maybe fictionalized or at least anonymized, you know clearly But one patient who said but I don't understand, you know, you want me to be compassionate Why won't you let me do my compulsions then to ease my fear, right? So I guess there's some confusion there, too Like well, you're asking I'm asking you to be self-compassion here But I also want you to do this really hard thing that may increase your level of agitation. Is that confusing for your for people? Um, surprisingly, it's it's the first question, but when I answer it, they're rarely confused I think that naturally people know Then one of the main concepts I discuss as a compassion self-compassion core concept is wisdom Most people even though they have fear have a deep sense of knowing what's in their best interest Yeah, right, even though fear is totally singing and screaming at them They usually have a sense of this isn't working anymore. This is causing me more pain Than it is bringing me relief and sometimes they may need to do compulsions for some time to realize that And so there is a we call it the compassionate self or the compassionate voice There is a voice in there deep deep down We talk about it as like it's a little seed and it grows and and it's and it can be kind of you grow at like a beautiful plan If you tend to it But if you can get in touch with that most people can recognize that compulsions and avoidance and Then a lot of safety behaviors we behave be gauging are actually not bringing them to Really actually taking care of themselves, right? If I sit down with a patient and I'll say, okay Um, you're really you had a panic attack. Wow, that must have been really really hard. Yeah Okay, what did you do? I left I left the party and I'll say wow Um, I totally get your response, right to to want to leave. I'm wondering how you felt After you left Well, I felt relief and what else did you feel? Well, I felt so embarrassed and ashamed and and really felt like I was missing out And I really wanted to be at that party and I really wanted to flirt with that boy or whatever it may be And I think that from that if we can be very gentle with ourselves We can actually start to see trends that aren't working Yeah, which actually makes sense and it's so interesting because you go through, you know What are the benefits of actually learning self-compassion? But then you take people through I like the six concepts like you literally walk through And from a personal standpoint, I'll share a little bit like in my anxiety recovery. Boy, did I miss this boat? I mean, I've literally written about how I think I even wrote in my first book like there was no self-compassion And I wrote that as if it was a good thing And I don't know what I was thinking but because I always looked at self-compassion as like well If I give myself an excuse to let myself let the hook I will but these would have been so helpful to me the things that you Yeah, I hope it's helpful to Anybody anybody right? I I hope it can make an impact So what what are the benefits like let's talk about where in practical standpoint here and clearly the reason why you wrote the book was When you are not engaging in self-compassion when you are punishing yourself when you're being critical and harsh and self-judgmental about this These are obstacles to recovery. I'm going to say makes things worse Okay, well think of it from just a biological standpoint is if If you made a mistake And I was your parent and I came to you and I said to you You're a terrible person. Why would you do that? You're just you know, what what were you thinking? How you're gonna feel anxious, right? Right, you're gonna feel a lot and your brain's gonna pump out a whole bunch of hormones into your body to say like Bad stuff is happening, right? Like you you're really bad But if you made a mistake or you were going through something really painful and I said wow, that's really painful You know, how might we make changes? How might we? Correct this. How might we Implement some tool here You're not going to be flooded with more cortisol and more adrenaline and more You know all the the anxious hormones. So when someone has a fear And and they're engaging in self-criticism. They're actually creating more discomfort. Yeah, right? They're they're we're actually putting yourself and I sort of do diagrams in terms of If you're if you're having a thought that's uncomfortable and you criticize it It's going to create more discomfort if you do a compulsion And you judge yourself and beat yourself up for that You're actually going to create more discomfort Which is going to make you more likely to engage in a compulsion again. Yeah So the cycle just gets out of control. So it just fuels itself and just plays back Cycles back on itself Right, right And then we also fall upon other issues like you might really start to to struggle with your own sense of identity too, right? I'm a bad person. I'm a loser I'm a fool What kind of person does least like these types of you probably even as your listeners are hearing it They're you're feeling pretty awful right now. Yeah, it's yucky. And so that that Actually can prevent someone from wanting to do an exposure if every time you have fear You've criticized who would want to expose yourself to that It's like traumatic almost, right? So if we can actually create a safe place to feel discomfort exposures become less overwhelming Yeah, that makes sense Because that's something that I know you hear all the time if I hear it You're certainly hearing it like I shouldn't be afraid of this to begin with or I shouldn't have these thoughts to begin with So why do I want to why do I want to bring them up? I don't want to focus on them, you know, I hear that all the time And people are genuinely uncomfortable and they are genuinely, you know Feeling badly about themselves because of that so that makes perfect sense But the benefits one of the things that I love about the book too is like this isn't just hey This is good for you. You're you're bringing the science here, which you're always evidence-based. It's one of your hallmarks Like hey, here's a bunch of research that tells us the benefits of when we add a self-compassion practice component To our recovery. This is what we get and what are some of those like it Interesting like lower levels of anxiety depression rumination. Do you see that in your practice? When you introduce that always the big one is okay, so there's a general increase improve well-being right in terms of You know, like you said anxiety depression You know, so many benefits the other huge one is you actually procrastinate less When you're compassionate, right people think that compassion means that you if I don't hold How many times have I heard this if I don't hold myself to such high standards? I'll let myself go Right, that's actually we have evidence that that actually is just creating more cortisol More adrenaline is creating more anxiety keeping you stuck and that by doing compassion practice You actually reduce your chances of procrastination you increase your chances of feeling motivated to do hard things It's it's the whole win all around. Yeah, so there's so many benefits to it Now let's talk about how hard it is for people to do this though. There's a reason why you spent Meltable pay many pages in this book going through these exercises and worksheets and reflections And I urge anybody look whether you're dealing with OCD or any other sort of anxiety or mental health struggle I mean, I think the practice here and the detail that you go into is beneficial for just about everybody Like I'm learning a ton of stuff in this book So the six sort of pillars, you know that you equality mindfulness warm-heartedness. That's one that Kind of wow that opened my eyes a lot. Let's talk about warm-heartedness for a second. What is that again? Is everybody warm-hearted? Everyone is naturally warm-hearted. Okay. I was wondering otherwise we would kill each other all day long, right? So we're as much as we are a faulty human race We are all innately warm-hearted, right? If someone falls on the street, your genuine instinct is to pick them up And so the cool thing about self-compassion is it's really simple. It's just the practice of treating somebody else To treat you. Excuse me. It's the practice of treating yourself exactly how you would treat somebody else if they were in your position Right. And so warm-heartedness is this warm Care we have for ourselves and we forget to do that for ourselves, right? So we we similar to your book when we're anxious. We want to just skip over things really fast Right instead of slowing down seven percent right Slowing down enough to go wait This is really painful We don't stop to do that for ourselves warm-heartedness is acknowledgement Of you're going through something and it's meeting it with a sense of tenderness instead of grumpy gritty Really like kind of hostile hostile. I just would encourage your listeners to give it one try Next time you're uncomfortable do one experiment Have do one time where you speak to yourself in your normal harsh voice And just jot down how you feel and then just try once what it feels like to just go wow I'm sorry. You're going through that. This is hard for you and see the shift that happens in in your suffering It's significantly less. It's interesting because you can learn to let yourself off the hook Emotionally without letting yourself off the hook behaviorally necessarily two different things really and right I always find it fascinating how How do we miss that as human beings? But when you have to tell somebody somebody who says like I'm letting my family down. I'm such a failure. Oh my god. I'm holding their back Well, would you say that to your child if they were having this problem? Oh, of course. I wouldn't well then Why do you talk to yourself that way? Right. Yeah, right. So sometimes I guess maybe some of this is turn the way you would treat somebody else treat yourself Like turn that on yourself instead of turning on yourself turn that on yourself. Yeah Ray and a piece of this too is just let's just go to the facts right is if you know in the science If you do choose and you can choose if you choose to talk to yourself in that mean or way As long as you are understanding that there is a great burden that goes with that, right? So if you just want to look at what's effective That sometimes I have clients who are in system like I have to stay hard on myself And I'll say okay, let's actually then incorporate the fact that your exposures might have extra anxiety Like let's just recognize that and and be kind about the fact that that's what you've chosen And that can be a really big eye opener for them. I'm like, oh Okay, if I'm not willing to change that I have to be willing to have more discomfort. That doesn't sound right Yeah, yeah, it's a good eye opener. I guess One of the things that I also found really interesting was The way you had to walk people through Vocabulary exercises like actual reframing exercises behavioral exercises Like learning self-compassion is an actual thing like learning to play these stupid guitars that are behind me You have to actually do things practice new things stumble make mistakes I think somehow we have the impression that like, oh, we should all like you said, we're all naturally warm hearted But we're not necessarily naturally self-compassionate in our actions. We have to learn to do that Yeah, it's interesting though because um, my mom was actually my first editor for this book even though I had editors many many editors But my mom was my first eyes and she I would send her a chapter and she would Send them back and it was interesting that chapter with the self-compassion exercises She was like, I had no idea this even existed Yeah, me either It's a thing you do like I thought it was just a nice word you say, you know But it's no it's it's actually deeper than that. It's And this is where I said I get sort of teary and really this is why Why it's so being so impactful for me is I talk a lot about dropping down Right, I'm I can get really heady But when I can actually drop down and actually create warmth in my body Not as a compulsion not as an avoidance not as a way to make my discomfort, but as a way to just go. Yeah This is hard. This is you know, wow that has been Life changing for me like I could get through anything That is the thing that helps me the most Yeah, I would bet too that there's a certain amount of when you say I can get really heady I can relate to that and I see so many people who will intellectualize the problem, which is Okay, in a way that's a way to keep it at arm's length But that could be an obstacle too like always just intellectualizing it means you don't necessarily feel it an experience Which you need to experience so that that's a valuable lesson too Right and if this book doesn't give you the warm fuzzies the fact that kim's mom helped edit it I mean come on, of course she did naturally. She did why wouldn't she have So yeah, it's really good. That's a great story. Let's talk about how you also I mean, yes, there's there's a bunch of psycho education here. There's the nuts and bolts of erp I like how you say erp using self-compassion as your superpower Yeah, and now sc erp that seems like it should have a tm after it. That's just me call me crazy Well, we actually need um research. I actually have spoken to multiple researchers on it We are we are needing more research in the field Of incorporating it specifically with ocd. We have some But um, you know, as I speak to these really amazing researchers, they're like, oh, yeah, we have to get this going. So Hopefully one day. Hopefully one day. Yeah, it's a big it's a big piece. So one of the things that I tried my best to do, of course Publishers want you to have like a four step program kind of style And but but I did actually find a way to incorporate that not because they suggested it, but I really wanted to make sure I use this metaphor of self-compassion is like a sandwich right, so um What the way that I try I've explained it before is I want you to imagine exposure and response prevention as the meat and the cheese Meaning like it's where the nutrients are it's where the good stuff is But really good erp is like side by side with a really good piece of like bread. That's the self-compassion Where the yummy carbs are Right, right. And and that has been that's sort of the the way that I've taken through all of the exercises is to make sure It's not just like a throw a few kind words on top It's actually you try to have you want to have it as a complete package. Yeah, it's kind of woven into the practice Yeah, it's part parcel of it, which is really great So the other thing that to me was also spectacular. There's so much good about this book But you also have an attire near the end of the book you go back and say, okay Let's start to address the grief the loss The guilt the shame that comes along with even as you're going through the recovery process Maybe the time that you've lost the mistakes that you made the things that you think the way you impacted people's lives Talk about that because that's another thing you don't hear a lot about. Yeah, everybody talks about the nuts and bolts of recovery But like what about the stuff that's left behind? Oh my god. There's all those years. I lost Yeah, yeah That that those chapters were the most important in my mind I actually wrote them first before I wrote any of the others because I knew that once those were out I could probably like all my emotional piece of it would come out because That shame and guilt and and you know the grief I have found to be if we're not addressing it Sometimes we can't even get to the ERP right every time we go to do an exposure And there's overwhelming wave of guilt or shame comes up or grief of all that that's been lost and so often I buy Not by any research or training. I just had to address that first right before we could even get into ERP would Be to acknowledge like this isn't your fault that you went through this You know you have it makes complete sense that you You know feel guilty that this is impacting your family and you've missed weddings and you've You know, so so I really wanted to make sure we incorporated that because again That can be a big part of the reason people never finish ERP Because the emotions get too strong yeah Well, and do you think that that sort of stuff can come out near the end I'm gonna say the end not that there's an end of recovery process But sometimes I've seen you know people make all this great progress And then the space gets made for all of that stuff to come out Sometimes you're just too afraid to feel it and then they do after also Right, and that's why it is at the end, you know I keep laughing because you know most books really want to end happy And and I try I was really trying to like okay We want to finish on a strong and we did finish on a strong I have to say we there is hope at the end of the book But I I really wanted the end of the book to really acknowledge that just because you've been through ERP doesn't mean life is Roses and unicorns right like it still means that and this is something I stress with my staff as well always the clinicians is Always checking with your clients at the end of treatment on how they're doing about being a human being in general A lot of people have had Anxiety for years and they don't really even know who they are Once the anxiety is gone. They don't know what they're interested in. They don't know what they enjoy They don't know how to You know Go on a date because OCD or their anxiety disorder has taken so much of their time And so I really wanted to make sure people sort of think of it as like a Toolkit that you can use anytime It's a skillful life. You will need to practice it because Grief and these emotions are normal human emotions. You will continue to feel them Yeah, I'm so happy that you included that in the book from my own again sharing my own personal experience That was an issue for me. Well, now what do I do? I remember actually like having a follow-up session with my therapist I didn't talk to her in a long time said hey, I better one off and that's what I had to ask What do I do now? You know, right? So it's super important that you address that and I'm glad that you did Yeah, yeah So I think we'll kind of wrap it up. We're at about the half hour mark Which is where people start to like wander away. So let's not let them do that Kimmy, I appreciate you being here today and taking time and sharing with us and I appreciate the effort you clearly put into this book Thank you. And if you are listening, I'm going to tell you this is worth the read. Absolutely I don't I don't normally say this stuff about products and books and things of that nature But this one is good. So how can people get it? Find sure They can get it anywhere where you buy books. So amazon bookstores will have links on my website It's called the self-compassion workbook for ocd Yeah, and I'm so excited to have it be out there. Yeah, it's a I will be self practicing self-compassion as we move into releasing it because it's scary It's a it's a it's a hard thing for me. Very good. This is my hard thing for the week Well, hopefully this should be out just about the day of release a couple days before it So guys head on over. I will at the end of this if you stick with me when the interview ends I will make sure all the links are in I'll follow up with the links and you can go to my website And I'll have links to the book and everything too. So kim best of luck with it And I'm sure we'll do this again. You're welcome here anytime and thank you for just being a good person I appreciate you. I'm so grateful. All right. See you guys later then Holy cow was that good. That was so good. That was one of the favorite episodes I've ever done one of the favorite interviews. I've ever done I cannot thank Kim enough for coming by and spending time with us and sharing her wisdom and her knowledge And uh, yeah, so good. I know I'm going to take away a lot of these concepts and use them in my own life because that has been lacking for me and Absolutely plan on incorporating as much of this as I can into my own messaging and my own work So again, thanks so much for kim to kim quinland for coming by to check us out That is it for this week If you would like to know more about kimberley quinland or know how to find out how to get the self-compassion workbook for ocd Go to my website at the anxious truth.com slash 175 the full show notes for the episode are there all of kim's links are there to our websites and social media And a link to get the book on amazon. So go check it out And I will leave you as always with the strains of after globe on my friend Ben drake whom you can find at ben drake music.com Check him out and I will ask a favor as I always do If you are listening on itunes or some podcast platform that lets you rate and review the podcast Leave us five stars and then take a second and write a little review Because if you are digging it and it's helping you then that will help other people find the podcast More people get help and that is really why I do this So thanks again for coming by spending your time with me giving me your attention like you do every week I appreciate you guys all so much and I will leave you with my new sort of usual sign-off And that is a reminder that this is the way