 Good afternoon, and I'm delighted to welcome you to this webinar this afternoon. My name is Alex White, and I'm honored to have been asked to chair and to moderate this session. It's part of the 2021 lecture series entitled Rethink Energy Countdown to COP26 brought to you by the ESB and the IIEA. Throughout the course of this series, we're convening international taught leaders, renowned energy experts, and political leaders who will address critical issues in energy policy in advance of the next annual UN Climate Change Conference, the critically important conference coming up in Glasgow COP26 this November 2021. So just at the outset, on behalf of the IIEA, I'd like to welcome you and especially to thank the ESB for their sponsorship and their continuing sponsorship and support for this series. This afternoon, we're delighted to be joined by two major figures of the European and the US electricity industry, who will reflect on the transition to a clean electricity future. And I mentioned the ESB and I'm delighted that one of our two speakers, well known to you, is Pat O'Darty, Chief Executive of the ESB. I'm going to say more about Pat in a few minutes when I call upon him to address us, but we're delighted to have Pat O'Darty as one of our two speakers. Our other speaker, Thomas R. Kuhn is president of the Edison Electric Institute, the association that represents all US investor owned electric companies. EEEI members provide electricity, believe it or not, for 220 million Americans. They operate in all 50 states of the United States and the District of Columbia. They directly employ more than 500,000 workers across the US. In addition, EEEI has 70 international electric companies as international members and 270 industry suppliers and related organizations as associate members. Prior to joining the EEEI in 1985, Mr. Kuhn was president of the American Nuclear Energy Council. He has served on the Energy Secretary's advisory board and on the board of the US Chamber of Commerce. So we are really, really delighted and honored to have you, Thomas, with us this afternoon. And I'm just going to invite you now by way of introduction to our session to address us and to make some opening remarks. It's all yours. Alex, I am honored and very, very excited to be with you. And I really want to commend EEEI and ESB for working together to put on this very, very timely discussion. I have a terrific partnership between your electric and ESB and Edison Electric Institute on where we share ideas and policies and technologies with each other to provide customers around the world with clean, affordable and reliable electricity. And I think that partnership is more important than ever. And I really am very excited to be with my friend Pat O'Darady. Pat has been such a great, great global leader on electricity and energy issues and it's always wonderful to be with him. Climate change is certainly one of the greatest challenges of our time. And it is a global issue and in that context it requires global solutions. And I'm happy to report that electric utility companies around the world are leading a profound energy transformation. So it's a very, very exciting time for our industry and customers are our North Star. Customers are demanding that we have in the future a much cleaner electricity system that we have modernized grid and that we have advanced customer solutions. So, and we are very, very much up to the task. Certainly the politics in our country have changed a great deal. President Biden on climate change is one of his highest priorities on his very first day in office. He rejoined the Paris Agreement, and he committed to be a major participant in COP26. We at EEI are sending a delegation of CEOs to participate and we also give it the highest priority and I really think that as an industry, we are very, very well positioned to be a major part of the solution to climate change. And we want to be a major part of the solution to climate change. Our track record so far is pretty impressive. In the United States, we have reduced our climate emissions 40% from the year 2005. Now the original Paris commitment that was made by President Obama was talking about 28% and by the year 2030. So we're way above that target the decade early. And we're continuing and very much committed to continuing that major progress. So, I think that 40% of our energy is now carbon free, nuclear, hydro, wind and solar. And again, we are making very, very rapid strides. So, we're very excited about that. And our emissions are at the lowest level in 40 years. So, one of our principles is and always has been to do this on an economy wide basis. So not just the electric sector. And we think with the electric sector becoming increasingly clean. It gives us a great opportunity to electrify the transportation sector and eventually the commercial industrial sector. And that is the real way to get the night zero so it is an exciting time because that has changed dramatically as well. It was a very tough situation at first to convince people to move to electric vehicles to convince the automobile companies to do that. But now we see every major automobile country company in the world right now committed to electric transportation in its future. Certainly, we have the technologies now to make great strides as we already have at the 40% level we could probably get to the 80% level. So we're not only resisting technologies, but we're also going to need new technologies. So it is very, very important for us right now to have major partnerships with our governments to move forward, new, new zero carbon technologies that can be available 24 seven. And whether or not they be energy storage or hydrogen or carbon capture and storage or advanced nuclear others. We accelerate that and we are advocating very hard with environmental groups and with labor unions to triple our budget in the United States with respect to advancing new technologies. So reliability and affordability remain a core principle for us. But electricity is so important to our economy and to our customers and some customers have low incomes and have very, very difficult time facing increasing energy costs. So this remains a major principle for us and and I think that again we've been able to do the 40% while keeping electricity rates at or below the level of inflation. And we want to continue that in the future and when and solar and and hydro and along with nuclear and natural gas can help us reach these goals. Well the pandemic certainly illustrated the importance of electricity to everyone. And we were declared a critical infrastructure industry by the president government that helped us do a very, very good job of keeping the lights on and, you know, keeping the economy moving to. But the other important factor I think is international collaboration is going to be essential for us to continue to work together on the international fund to make sure we can achieve the goals we can share technologies we can share policies that are going to help us to get there. So again I, I thank I and ESP for putting on this tremendous program here. And thank you very much for those opening remarks and as I say it's just so great to have you with us so we can have this span the Atlantic in terms of addressing addressing this debate. I should have mentioned that the outset that what the format is so our members and people who are used to being on board for these seminars will be really familiar with the way we do things we have a speaker, and that we have a Q&A session a little bit different today because you'll appreciate we've got two outstanding speakers. So our format is going to be a little bit different. You've heard from Thomas you'll hear more from him in a few minutes you're going to hear from part of dirty in a moment. And then after that, what we're going to do is I'm going to moderate, I suppose it kind of a conversation we're called a fireside, but you know, no, we're not supposed to have fires, fires anymore open fires anymore so we don't have an actual fire. But you know you get the point, we're going to have a conversation between the three of us principally obviously our to our two guests I'll moderate that. And there will still of course be an opportunity for you to ask a question. So there's a Q&A function on on your screen there that you'll be familiar with. And please join in using that Q&A function you're welcome to do it and Q&A function on zoom and sending your question at any point. If you've got something you'd like to ask Thomas that you've heard about already put the question in now don't wait. And we're going to give us a chance to have a look at the questions, keep them fairly short reason be succinct. You'll appreciate your typing away on your computer we're having to read it then as well so the shorter the more succinct, the more likely it is that we are going to get to them so put them in there putting a question as soon as it occurs to you. We would respectfully ask you just to say who you are give your name and your affiliation and organization if you represent just for the sake of completeness. All of this session today is on the record, just to let you know that. And if you feel up to tweeting and you're on Twitter, you could use the hashtag which is hashtag rethink energy. We're very happy to have your participation. And once again, thanks to Thomas our second speaker distinguished speaker is Pat Hodority, Chief Executive of the ESB who was appointed to that post in 2011 and to the board of the ESB in 2013. Pat completed his tenure as president of your electric in May of this year may 2021 your electric is the sector association which represents the common interests of the electricity industry across 32 European countries, and covers all major issues affecting the sector from generation and markets to distribution networks and customer issues. And Pat Hodority holds a primary and master's degree in engineering from University College Dublin, he completed the advanced management program at Harvard. And he is also director of a director of energy UK and a former trustee of the conference board of the United States. I'm sure I could say an awful lot more pat. But we can't take up too much more time of your time. And once again, delighted to invite you to address us this afternoon pat Hodority. Good afternoon Alex and thank you very much and good afternoon everybody. And good afternoon Tom, it's great to be sharing this platform with you. We go back a long way, and it's an awful pity. I know you would have relished to come to a visit to Ireland but sadly we haven't been able to do that. It's great to watch as president of your electric or chief executive of ESP, but this is the best we could get so it's a we've had great debates down the years and it's great to share this platform with you. And you're, you're very welcome virtually to to Dublin and to Ireland. As I reflect on where we're at. It goes out saying we're in the middle of the biggest disruption known to global society and living memory. And yet climate change is still a part of the policy agenda. And if you think back to when we came out, particularly here in Ireland, but in Europe also we came out of the recession coming out of it from that arose from 2008. That recovery was driven off the back of low fossil fuel prices. And we should remember that as we come out of the back of this crisis this pandemic. There's no doubt that climate change is here. And we should grasp we all need to grasp this opportunity well it still remains an opportunity rather than an absolute endurance. We are seeing extreme weather events of climate change is here now. And the European policy response is very, very, very comprehensive. And it is built on the learnings from coming out of the recession a decade ago. So when Europe were legislating for next year by 2050, and about to kick off process which will greatly increase the ambition through 2030, 2040, the so-called fit for 55 package, which is working its way through the organs of Europe. And we can see that in July, hopefully. And of course this has been approached in Europe through a truly holistic lens of the Green Deal. And it's all encompassing in terms of the transition to net zero embracing competitive competitiveness, you know, competitiveness on the one hand, the environment agriculture and biodiversity. And this of course will all feed into, you know, it's free, it's derived from the use of the parts of being them with feeding to cop. And of course the EU are the UK now which is outside of Europe, but it's still a big thought leader in Europe and globally indeed in the moves in that in that zero and UK is following that similar track. And of course COVID has shown what a global coordinated response can do when we're faced with a kind of common enemy. And it is definitely blueprint for a tackling climate change. But the effort and the pace and Tom has mentioned this is truly staggering the next 30 years. We must wean ourselves off fossil fuels in so many aspects of our lives, and as consumers. And we could, if we regard ourselves as consumers of carbon, maybe it's an interesting way of thinking about it. But we need to make choices as consumers about how we live our lives in our homes, how we upgrade our homes, how we put new homes as a society, reduced the amount of waste and create, use more public transport, move to EVs then when public transport isn't available to us. And this is the change that we're living so we're living today at this decade is the change that we've talked about just been coming for quite a while. And I've no doubt that we can get to 2050 which a much, much better version of what we have today and a vision for society and what we have today. There are a lot of difficult choices that we all have to make. We all have to make as a society, and how we move forward as a society, and all of the stakeholders in that society for the future that we want is how we all do that together is very, very important. And again just picking up on something Tom said about electricity industry. The electricity industry in Ireland and in Europe has done a lot of the heavy lifting so far in this I'm really excited about about the road electricity industry has to play. I just wish I was coming into this industry Alex rather than maybe leaving it in my formal role as ESB chief executive shortly. So, you know, the one thing is, as we've reflected on the role of electricity in the last decade, we put in our industry prepare preparing our industry for this. It's the transformative role that electricity has played in the last 100 years to society and the economies we have today are underpinned by the electricity system. And that's even going to be more so in the future. And that is the opportunity that we have electricity is the most versatile unit of energy out there. We would need to be meeting well over 60% of final energy consumption from it. And in Europe, the power sector is in good shape. You know, by the first half of 2020, 60% of the permits in Europe was decarbonized. This will grow to almost 70% over the next five years and 80% in 2013. For Ireland, we know what the solution is. We know, you know, we know, we know that it's going to be when we have huge wind resources onshore and offshore solar is becoming much, much more feasible possible now. But it's what the big issue for Ireland in town touched on this in terms of security of supply and reliability of supply. We won't have an energy transition. We don't have reliable supply in the transition. And we have to reimagine the system we have today, which is underpinned by reliability to something very different, but also will also have to be underpinned by reliability. So for our big challenge, then is how we risk how we replace dispatchable generation that today is predominantly fossil fuel based, because Ireland doesn't have the kind of the hydro resources or other non carbon sources generation that other countries have. So that's the final piece of the jigsaw I suppose in Ireland that has to kind of fall into place. I'm very upbeat and very confident for the sector and very upbeat and confident that the road to the sector will play. And I've given a positive view of how that, you know, of that. But it requires again, Tom said to everybody coming together deep, deep, deep collaboration between industry between academia between all sectors of industry between the customer, the consumer and society. And it's really about back to that point earlier about what is the type of society we all want in the future. And then the role of the energy sector and electricity sector in particular is actually then being a big part of facilitating and enabling that. Thank you so much, Pat. And I just really love the way you put the emphasis just in your closing sentences there on the societal aspect. You know, that it's, look, there are big people talking about business opportunities they talk about the, the need to have these huge adjustments of the kind of economy we have the sort of energy reliance we have all of these big questions big engineering questions if you like, big calls you're absent the societal point, I think is well made, and actually you both talked about, you know, the scale of the of the changes that we all have to make as citizens. And I'm wondering about either of your perspectives or both of your perspectives on how engaged in this agenda, you think citizens actually are. If you think about what maybe it should be or it needs to be. And where do you think, you know, it's a huge question where do you think the people of the US I mean there's so many and it's such a complex thing with Europe, but like just as a broad brushstroke thing. In this case you think citizens are in this agenda. And what's a good way or what's the best way to get kind of citizen buy in or citizen get people to believe they really and see that they have a stake in the changes that lie ahead I'll go to you back to you Tom first if I may in Maryland. Alex and I think you all can tell just how enthusiastic and committed both Pat and I are, and I think that's reflected in the leadership across our industry is a very, very exciting time for us. And as I said we really are very committed to being part of the climate solution. And I, you know, that's, that's a major change I think in our industry over the years. And in terms of our customers. And a major driver of this whole situation is our customers. And it started out with the tech companies, the high tech companies that wanted to be green now it's going, you know, across the board and industries, whether or not it, you know ups FedEx you name it. And yesterday or this week, 80 major companies wrote a letter to the White House saying wanted to achieve major carbon reduction and mission goals so we're getting that support. We have labor support now for making these changes we have obviously environmental people support state cities and towns are stepping up and offering their support and and setting their own goals. So, I really think the politics are changing obviously. As you mentioned Alex with the increasing amount of storms and hurricanes and wildfires and things that nature every day there's new illustrations of how climate change is changing our, our life in our world. But I think that customers and citizens are becoming a major driver of this whole transformation. So do you think that you think that's true. Have you seen a change in that the nature of people's. Yeah, I have a stake in this. I think Alex we're beginning to see that we're beginning to see bigger interest in in the role that electricity and energy plays in how people lives are lives and how they live their lives in a, in a, in a, I will live the lives of a little carbon world. We've, we've, we've a project project down in Dingle, Dingle Tom is in the first Southwest of the country. And it's a project that is, is, is looking at the role of citizens and the interaction between citizens and the power system in a, in a, in a world where the resources are constrained so the network may be constrained at certain times of the year. And how people will, will, will, will invest in technology to live to, to lower their own carbon footprint so solar panels electric vehicles, and how do we participate in demand side management. We're completely blown away by the level of interest. Once you give people the tools to understand first of all that the impact of how they live their lives is having, and then you give them the tools then to, to actually change that and do something about that. You, you get a remarkable level of interest because electricity is very much taken for granted commodity. And I suppose if we in the industry are really honest about the last 90 years. You know, we talk about customer but really do we really deeply understand what motivates and what drives the customers to make the decisions that they make and the realities we don't and we didn't. That will change now as new technologies available us to put that information in people's hands and as people start seeing what they can do to change things drive on change and drive away or society change. So we're seeing that through this kind of, you know, through this particular project we're also seeing some of the work we do with customers with customer focus groups, smart meeting for example, and again, you know, suppliers giving tariff offerings to customers where they can get value by using by making choices about when and how they use our electricity and indeed what place they pay for it. You get a response. Then on the other side, there's a big big big role for policy policy as a driver, in terms of setting standards and making demands on the construction of businesses, and indeed on society. And I suppose that's a wider thing in this. Like, there's definitely more engagement but there's still a lot of people who are not engaged. And the other piece of that is, are people not engaged because they can't engage they can't afford to engage. They're vulnerable. This cannot be a transition that only plays to those who can afford it. It has to be a wider transition for all. But isn't there a genuine risk there that, you know, some people get left behind, and some communities get left behind, whether it's because they are they come from poorer communities or or less engaged for whatever reason. And that's not that's not a value judgment on people. It's just the likelihood that things moving so fast that, you know, some people, perhaps even most people may move with that but there could be very large minorities of people who who are left behind and we have the whole debate about how it plays into, you know, stranded us is like the older, the older infrastructure will still be there for people who perhaps don't or can't or don't wish to move. And then you've got these new developments as well. I mean, Pat, do you think that that is a risk. I mean, I mean, yeah, that's, that's a risk Alex, but interestingly, I believe that that's a risk. That is, like ultimately who who's best placed to deal with that risk to point out risk. It's us in the sector, and it's government and policy so if supports only go to those who can who can afford to invest in technology. And then you leave the fixed cost of the legacy infrastructure behind for those who can't afford, and their electricity price becomes higher as a result of that. That's the wrong answer for society. And I'm sure Tom that's that's something that it must be a preoccupation for for you guys as well in the US I imagine that there are whole areas and whole communities that perhaps are at risk of kind of being slower movers than others again not to make a value because of what people's circumstances are they're they're poorer, they're less connect they're less sort of engaged and so on. You're Mike, I think, yeah, good man. I think this is why the clean energy future is going to be so wonderful because it's going to benefit all customers. We are totally focused on on affordability and making sure that electricity can be affordable for all customers. But environmental justice has been is a major issue for our industry for our president for a Congress, where industrial facilities have often been cited and and underserved and neighborhoods and I think that I think that, you know, it is very very important now is removed for the clean energy economy that we let those customers benefit that we let, you know, we are focused on diversity equity and inclusion. Among our companies we want to have our employees look like customers and communities and we serve and we want to be majorly focused on those areas. But I do think that again the clean energy future gives us an opportunity to really focus on these issues and on the transformation to make sure that all customers are benefit. Hmm, I'm just going to say with you, Thomas, you've both. I suppose you both painted a picture of you spoke you know 2030 2050 these timelines that were were were all familiar with them that were, we see very much as objectives as necessary objectives for zero carbon electricity. And I suppose, you know, we're, we're all committed to that or we see the necessity and the importance of having those kind of objectives but in the shorter term, I think you certainly touched on that perhaps you did too as well Tom. The question of security of supply is always there, and we'll always raise its head. And I spoke on this side of the Atlantic Tom we've, you know, we've we've seen, even though we're a good distance away we can see in the news that the challenges in Texas and California, we haven't actually closer to home now recently very recently we've seen one or two reports of concerns about electricity security here. So Tom going to you first just on this, these potential challenges of security of supply on some of these, these big events or worrying events that we've seen in recent times. Reliability has always been priority number one for our industry. There is nothing that is a bigger problem, and then the electricity is off. And so I do think that the situation is very, very critical that we focus on this part of the equation. We make sure that we make this transformation that reliability remains priority number one. And that California and Texas, they were glaring examples of things that we've got to make sure don't happen in the future. We have to make sure we have the mix of resources, we have to add new technologies on to the system. And this is why natural gas is so important right now because it is an important part of the balancing of the system and the acting as a battery along with those existing nuclear plants that maintain a 24 seven carbon for the industry as well. And I think that it's, it's energy storage is important new technologies micro grids. We are making, we are the most capital intensive industry in the country making investments over $138 billion and much of that focuses on resilience and security of supply. Again, I think Pat said it before the transition is not going to happen if customers are upset as they move more and more toward electricity, electricity for transportation electricity for commercial industrial purposes. If that electricity is. In Ireland, in particular, I mean, the challenge of reconciling this rapid change that we need that you've spoken about that we need reconciling that with the, the everyday and the continuing challenge of ensuring the supply is there and you know we don't have nuclear we we've, well we have hydro but it's relatively limited in overall terms, you know, it's so our options are fewer. And there's the debate about gas happening all the time about how quickly that can be a transformation that that agenda. So, what's your answer to the, to the overall problem of the big question what's your answer to your. What does that fit into the picture for you. You know, our has has achieved a worldwide position like we're, we're in the top two or three in Europe in terms of wind penetration per capita we're an island country. We don't have much interconnection. It's a staggering technological achievement. We, we can have wind generating 6070% of electricity at certain times, you know, but in the round last year, over 40% of electricity in Ireland was generated by renewables. And that was, you know, that was deemed to be bordering impossible. And over a decade ago, when we started that, going to 70% now it's going to be a huge challenge and no doubt about that. And, as I said, the kind of secret sauce that we have to get to is what replaces dispatch but so today dispatch will generation is hydro. So it's a few percent for Ireland, and then it's cold and it's gas. Cold will be gone out in Ireland in the coming years. So gas in terms of this is a is a very, very important transition for us in Ireland and you know what happens to replace gas then you know the carbon capture and storage for years was talked about. You know carbon capture storage is still on the table. It's expensive it's inefficient hydrogen is another one it's a long, long way away. So if we pick our way through this forest of uncertainty as I call it, we have to have, you know, gas as a backup interconnection mode to adhere. So that in the future, you know, what does the power system look like another piece of this is going to be the role of demand and managing and moderating demand based on economic signals in the marketplace were very, very early days of that. So design has to fit and has to evolve to make all of this happen. And that is going to be the real challenge. So, you know, can we do it of course we can do it. But I think it's really, really important to keep as much of an eye on that reliability and security piece that old that age old dilemma that we talked about. It's still the challenge today. And so, so there's no silver bullet for this there's no magic answer. And it's not not to draw you into the policy area too much or at least not into the politics certainly but the policy areas obviously something you're both interested in what the policy environment is, and it's not a challenge for for policymakers it's a challenge for everybody really to to try to work out this glide path I mean you find yourself as well as well as a policymaker. You still have to, as it were, justify, maybe that's the wrong word or explain why gas would still be very much in the mix and likely to be so for some considerable time, even though you might feel you wanted gone at some sort of cold cold might be a sort of that's the one staring us in the face and that's only got just a few years, but at the same time, you know, you, you can say, and I remember you saying it to me when I was minister, look, you know, ultimately, we can't have cold, but if you're saying to me, we can't have colon money point next week. That simply is not a prospect that simply just not not not a proposition that lasts any kind of scrutiny so that broader debate needs to get a little bit more subtle about this slide path, and I, and I think Alex if I remember your response when I said that he was the path, you know, you know, you're, you know, there's this perception that maybe the industry wants to hold on to this stuff forever so kind of lord I'll fix it later on rather You know, you know, and somewhere. So the political difficulty is there has to be tension in the system there has to be unreasonable demands placed on technology place on market participants politically there has to be. And then there has to be then some kind of sensible rational kind of picking our way through this. Yeah, and it's easier for me as a non politician. I don't know where I, where I sit, but that that's like it. It's politically like Ireland must show cause in the internet internationally we must do that. And there must be only as I said we will we must have a non forgiving unreasonable drive to make to make this better, but at the same time keeping away and was practical keeping your life and I was practically. Tom, I won't draw you into the politics but I will ask you a little bit about the policy. You mentioned Joe Biden I think a couple of times as a new president there seems to be a completely new atmosphere in terms of the way this issue and this agenda is being addressed. And I think it's not being overly political to say that most people, I think are very many people in the world will be welcoming that. You know, the approach has been taken by John Kerry and so on. So, how do you interact with or do you find yourself interacting with the political system in terms of how the political how the politicians address these questions and try to keep their voters, frankly, while at the same time making the changes that are needed. Just the mute the mic, the, yeah, we go, you're very, no, your grant. We are very, very closely working with the, with the Biden administration and with the Congress, and we work on a bipartisan basis. And, and again as as an industry that works with people on both sides of the aisle. And it works with Republican and Democratic governors and state legislators and regulators, etc. We want to be part of the solution I think policymakers throughout the world really are amazed at the progress or industry is made with respect to an investment that does make long term investments that that has a major capital expenditures the transformation that we've made over the last decade that we intend to make into the future has been really I think pretty remarkable. And so people policymakers again are very, very interested in working with us. We have been successful at keeping electricity rates down below the level of inflation. And we've done it with the help of new technologies. We've done it with the help of, you know, tax incentives that have helped to drive down the cost dramatically. And with these technologies that that has benefited customers in a major way. And I think that, you know, their policies that are being debated right now and we think will be continued and we think they're going to be incredibly enforcement. So I think debate going on all over the world I suppose about this, particularly pandemic and post pandemic, just about the role of the state generally the role of, you know, state actors, and so forth versus the market. So, you know, I think there would be a big kind of area of thinking that would say the market, ultimately will decide the market will decide on pricing the market will decide on new technologies what survives what doesn't survive. So do you think, you know, the current market structures that we have well first of all, do you think the market must be supreme and in most of these decisions or do you think that, you know, what role for example is carbon pricing have is does the market is the market determine does the market determine what happens. It does exclusively Alex I think the, you know things get determined by technologies by public policies and by markets and customers. And I think that basically markets are very very important and we should and we are continuing to look at new market structures that encourage and enhance energy efficiency and demand management. And, you know, and move the technologies forward that we need to move. I mean, again, for for us as well as it been driven by by tax policies and incentivizing tax policies. A major debate in our country right now is over a clean energy standard or clean energy incentives that help make sure that we continue to be able to get to where we need to get to my 2030 for example. So those debates are similar around the world but what may come to different conclusions I know carbon pricing is an important part of the equation and in Europe and maybe a little bit less important than the United States. Yeah, see that that certainly seems seems so I mean pat on the on that. There I think some thinkers some observers talk about the distinction between the state and the market that maybe the role for the state is to define markets in other words to, you know, there's certainly some of the thinkers say that the market will will have a role and that really the state can actually determine not that the market determines what happens but the state can determine what kind of market you have and can define the parameters of that market. So what do you think about that and also what do you think about the contribution of carbon pricing. I'm smiling as I was listening to Tom there because somebody heated the base he and I have had is about the difference between markets in Europe and markets in the US and the role of carbon. So in Europe, carbon has a price and that's going to drive everything and that's something actually I would fundamentally believe in. I'd even go so far as saying that, ideally, what you'd like to get to is carbon at the price of real consumption in everything right out at the consumer. But that's a pipe dream because politically that's just not possible. And what carbon has a role to play I think carbon pricing money and in Europe price of carbon is going to work does a trajectory has been set for rising price of carbon and that's going to drive the old terms. In terms of market and market design, you know, there would have been this few maybe a decade and a half ago that everything is new to market and pure markets going to drive everything. I don't believe that at all I say Thomas said something similar. I think this is just too important for citizen societies for the political systems and stand back and let the market just cut loose it's just not it's just. So now what's next thing is the is the role of government and policy and regulators in market design and the market design will have to evolve as we transition to wherever the endgame is. And so so government and regulators in particular have a real role to play in market design and market designs will have to evolve they won't stay fixed. So, you know that I don't know Alex is that answer to question and you asked me there but but yeah no I said government governments cannot be far away in policy cannot be far away from market design. Now that's great. I'm going to go to some questions that we've got coming in from our participants our audience and first one is from Sarah Colin I'm going to go to Sarah Colin is 18 for zero. And she Sarah says, Mr Coon mentioned nuclear power several times as having the importance in America's clean energy mix. And Sarah says it's interesting to hear part authority talk about Ireland's dilemma in replacing fossil fuels in dispatchable power when we don't have a large hydro resource. If the legislative barriers to developing nuclear power in Ireland were removed. And would it be worth considering seriously that approach in Ireland, I think she means if the legislative bars were removed with nuclear power be something that will be considered might be considered I'm sure you'll be treading carefully here path but there you go. Maybe, maybe less carefully Alex and I might have tried this years ago. Yeah, good, good. I think the issue of nuclear power, you know, for as we know nuclear power is illegal in Ireland so the lesson so it can't, it can't happen right. But I think I think what will put real pressure into the debate now there's an ideological issue around nuclear so leave that to one side I come at this from a technologist and a marketing perspective and a market perspective. And I suppose in my in my head. You know, in terms of replacing gas there's a race to replace gas with something. Right, if that's something becomes hydrogen anytime soon, and we can manage a transition. But I think hydra. Now there's huge cost issues and commercials around hydrogen, then hydrogen then may displace the nuclear debate for the likes of Ireland. And I think nuclear debate could come back on the table. But I think something else has to happen with nuclear as well then for New Jersey is the size of the nuclear nuclear reactors make sense at a staggering scale, which are too big for Ireland. So in a way it's an easy thing to dismiss nuclear in Ireland today because we would need something of the order of a gas turbine, the conventional gas turbine, but 400 megawatts. Now, there's probably somebody in the audience who will come in immediately and say we have that technology. There's all kinds of modern nuclear technology available today. But but I think the debate Alex is first and foremost a political one that's an ideological one. And then it's something about, because nuclear is a 50 60 year bet. And is there a different 50 or 60 year bet which might obviate the need for nuclear. And that's probably hydrogen debate. Yeah. And I go to Tom, I've got a question from Daniel Barnes, and GDF Suez, and Daniel says what, well he says what a great panel this afternoon and we can only agree with Daniel on that terrific to speakers that we have. What are the biggest challenges facing battery storage. Daniel would like to know from you, Tom. Well, I think battery storage has amazing promise in the future. And, and in the present, in fact, battery storage is growing dramatically in our country. And for all aspects of the electric system. Obviously, obviously, the distribution part of the systems transmission part of the system and the generation of the equation and for no individuals personal uses in connection with solar on solar rooftops but I, I think you know battery storage is somewhat limited and duration right now to four to eight hours and most of the research that's going on is extending that and looking for long term storage. And I think there's some very, very promising developments happening on technologies moving forward. There's certainly a lot of emphasis being put on to it but we get storage that can last a few weeks and things that nature. And I think the, the storage situation changed tremendously. You agree pop. Do indeed yeah I think battery, battery, like, you know, if people said we're putting we're going to be putting 100 megawatt batteries in the power system, five years ago even though laughter just that just shows how the technology as well. The batteries have a huge role to play in that, as again, there's no single silver bullet and the part of that mix that's going to make up just reimagined electricity system batteries of all sizes in use whether an industry level. Some people have batteries in their homes. What's going to happen the batteries and electric fee because if you've got a million EVs on the road. What's going to happen all of those when they're connected to charges. So battery technology, whether grid scale or small ones as a big role to play. It's a lovely question here from Tara Kelly out in the ESP actually and I'm going to put it to you, Tom, and because it's a lovely it's a nice connection with the COVID what we've you know we've been just observing everything that's happened in the last year and a half and happened to the world and to humanity. And she said when COVID hit people turned to nature for comfort, be it in gardens parks or beaches. And if nature turns on people, we'll have nowhere to go, Tara says. And she's wondering is there an opportunity now, almost as it were even driven by the COVID. We never wanted the pandemic of course but it's happened and we're feeling our way out of it looking to the future. We take almost like a kind of an inspiration from from what's happened and how we've approached it to drive their carbon reduction message further and and clear than we did in pre COVID times. Well, I think I think you're right on target. And I think that is happening. And I am very, very optimistic like you are that again we are moving toward a cleaner world and much more world that is in connection with nature that we are moving toward an electrified world that we're bringing on more distributed energy technologies. I think that are very helpful. The pandemic also we're moving toward a more digitalized both as well that is dependent upon electricity and there are some scary parts of that, like cyber. We're putting a great deal of attention on the cyber issue in our country and we've seen examples of ransomware attacks and disruptions in the energy sector we want to make sure that in the future that particularly the electric sector we have a partnership with to make sure that operational technology we use in the electric sector is not affected by cyber attacks but I think that will be a major focus because I think that's something that goes against nature for sure. But I am very, very optimistic that we're moving toward a much, much better world than the cleaner world fully agree with your premise. Yeah, I did not mind the premise of Tara Kelly and it's a really terrific question. I'm going to go back to pat on that cyber since Tom brought up the issue that the cyber threat and that's a whole sort of digital advances have been almost like kind of mind blowing and and now we have this almost weekly reports of cyber attacks and threats of cyber attacks and so on. Do you want to add anything to that what Tom said about that? You know, like when we when we talk about reliability power system now cyber by design is embedded in that we have all kinds of technologies from control systems, Scala systems, automation, and there's just going to be more and more of that reaching into the network and then as the network reaches into people's homes through smart metering, it's digital end to end from the power station, whether the power station is a conventional power station, a nuclear power station or wind farm, all the way to people's homes. There's tech all along that and it's all interconnected. And the only way the power system of the future, this reimagined power system that we talk about for this low carbon to zero carbon water net zero world in 2050 technology and digital plays a real part in optimizing the resource of the length and breadth of the value chain and right through to the choice the customer makes. So cyber embedded in the design from the very start, sorry, cyber defense bed embedded in design from the very very start is really, really, really important. And that's that's again why in a way back to the question around markets as well, Tom is that, you know, we did this is a critical infrastructure, this is a critical industry. So, so, you know, markets don't always reward the kind of investments that you need to make to maintain the reliability and the security of the system. So that's where the regulator comes in and to be fair to regulators see this as a big part of their role. But what we call it me is be the same as a cyber by design in every component of the infrastructure. That's in cyber defense by design. You know, Alex, I'd like to pipe in another thing. I just think that the, the workers in our industry are the real heroes. The pandemic showed. Many of us that the mission essential workers, the people that were out in the front lines, the people that they kept the lights on where the real heroes. And we have a line worker appreciation day designated by Congress this tomorrow as a matter of fact to recognize those people because they go out and restore power after hurricanes and Doritos and wildfires, etc. And it's just an industry that comes together and helps each other. We're mutual assistance is paramount. We don't point fingers at each other. We work together to make sure we keep the lights on. I suppose this is probably one principally for for you, Pat. But I'm sure Tom would have some perhaps some insights from the experience of the states. What are the limits to the contribution more interconnectivity could make to are becoming net zero in Ireland. So in frontier interconnection has has a has a big role to play and I suppose the difference between Europe and America is, is that your European power system has grown up very much around countries national national borders with some limited interconnection. And part of the EU drive now is to increase the amount of interconnection. But again, as we're working our way through the transition so we have a gigawatt of interconnection with Britain at the moment there's another gigawatt plan between France and Britain on a on a peak on the island of over seven gigawatts. But so you have to take interconnection into design of your system security standard. Otherwise, the guy, the neighbor you're connected to has to keep your lights on. We're not sophisticated enough yet in Europe to actually have a European wide planning of the power system. And that's where it has to get to, because if you take division for the future with lots of floating offshore wind on the west coast of Ireland hydro in the Balkans and the Alps and in the Nordics and so on and so then Europe, all connected together in some way to keep Europe's lights on. But again, part of that transition is is, you know, is keeping the lights on in the transition. So interconnection has a role to play and limited, but becoming increasingly important, but you have to make sure then that the right piece to end this is cater for if you're dependent on interconnection. Sure. I don't know, Tom, if you have any thoughts on that obviously the conditions in the US are quite different and the landmass context is different and the states and so on being how they operate. I don't know if there's, are there any, are there any, is there any advice or any even observation that you have from there about the importance of interconnectivity. And both sides of the Atlantic. This issue is incredibly important interconnection is so incredibly important and critical to delivering clean energy technologies to where they need to be to making sure we maintain the reliability of the system that came into play in the past. As you indicated, where we needed more transmission into that particular state and I do think that we need to expand the transmission system we need to expand the distribution system. We need to make the system much more resilient in the future to, you know, withstand the forces of Mother Nature, and, and again, I just think this is an incredibly important part of the equation. But, you know, fortunately it has been recognized by policy makers on both sides of the island by both Republicans and Democrats. I thank you for that question interconnectivity I just can't remember whether I attributed to to Ian Kingston that was in Kingston's question thank you. And so there's no point in me asking people to give us their name if I don't mention their name and I couldn't remember whether I did or not. And one for you pat and a net question as specific to your role or specific to Ireland from the business post a current question from Sarah Taft McGuire pat will electricity and gas prices continue to rise. What can the ESP do about this. I think the short answer to that. Sarah, is that who you said was from Sarah Taft McGuire from the business post. The short answer is I don't know. And if I'm not being glad if I did know that I'd be in a different job because I've been trying to make some money out of the markets. But look, it is a really, really big issue because again, in the transition crisis important. So, so electricity prices, you know, a host electricity prices in Ireland have gone up. All suppliers have announced in Ireland recently electricity price increases, and that's off the back of gas prices driving a host electricity prices. And why is gas driving, because gas in Europe, you know, gas price is a short gas in Europe it's been head it's heading for LNG gas is heading for Far East. And we're seeing gas prices going we're seeing gas prices at the moment higher than we would see in certain winter times. So the short answer is we don't know the carbon price is going to go up the European Union wants carbon prices to go up to drive behaviors. And I suppose, you know, there is, there is a thesis in the longer term as we head for this transition that the unit price of electricity may with more than likely go up. But that will be using less of it as we make our homes more efficient and we need more efficient lives and energy terms but the overall price we pay for electricity should come down. And but again, that's a difficult message to be talking to customers about was definitely a difficult political message. Okay, interesting. Sergio Contreras asked about what the panel's view is on the role that electricity companies and associations are playing in ensuring transition to electricity vehicles in the United States and in Europe I go to you Thomas. They are very, very active in that area and and have been and Sergio I think we can safely say we've certainly turned the corner on that issue as you know electric vehicles are expanding rapidly in our country and around the world. And we're doing it with major customers like, like FedEx and Amazon, where you see those companies making tremendous commitments. We're doing it with the automobile manufacturers and working in tandem with them. There are more than electric companies, more than $3 billion on charging infrastructure and advocating with our federal government to get involved in that pretty much as well and we're seeing the proposals and the energy infrastructure package that is being considered in our Congress that there is a great deal of support for electrification and transportation and and infrastructure charging. Pat, yeah. So we, we, we've a new infrastructure business. We were the first in Europe to build an end to end business across the island of Ireland, a charging infrastructure. We've been upgraded in recent times in fact we launched a super hub earlier in the week and junction 14 and the seven. So, so electric vehicle is now becoming mainstream, we will see more and more people buying we see more and more vehicles being available. Utilities have a role to play through their supply business in terms of you know, 80% of electric vehicles will be charged in people's homes on night rate are cheaper electricity. So how utilities, how supply companies price electricity in the context of maybe smart meeting new products and services will drive to the uptake of electric vehicles, as well as how more and more come on on the market with the manufacturers and the, and the cost. So I think in Ireland is probably, you know, it comes down to a choice about price now because you're getting batteries performing 50 kilometers of range so the range issue in Ireland is gone. And so, so look, I think we've reached, we've, we're pivoting that great word is used now where, you know, where it's, we've pivoted to a different era of electric vehicles. Terrific. And listen, we've covered a huge metric round. And I'm so grateful to both of you for your time. I'm going to just finish up on a one question to both of you, I might tag on a little extra one to pass. Yeah, but I'll ask you both just just as you're closing thoughts in relation to how Europe and the US are collaborating or can collaborate more like what are the what can we learn from each other and you've given a few examples actually already both of you have in terms of this crossover, and you both know each other and you know from listening to each other over the years as to most what the, what the various challenges are, and you're able to compare and contrast but what do you think that we can learn from each other and are there trade and investment opportunities there that can be pursued. I'll go to you, Thomas first if I may. Well, I think that was the closing part of my opening statement was talking about how international collaboration is so incredibly important. And again, we commend and thank your electric and ESP for really as closely to support that we've had an EI this year to transatlantic dialogues that's been a part of them. And the exchange of information on technologies on public policies and markets, etc, is going to be so important in the future. And as we do take on this historic challenge, I think that it's going to be very, very helpful that we're working with each other on the international front and expanding our trade opportunities better. I mean there's so many new technologies coming coming out from companies that are on both sides of the Atlantic that are going to benefit our customers and that's the bottom line. So again, thank you. Thank you very much for the ESP for this great debate here and discussion. It's been, it's been great having you. I'm going to ask Pat just to address that US Europe, but also just as you're doing it. If you have any reflections on your, you know, your 10 years as CEO, your 40 year career, you must have started you must have been very young when you started if you've been there for 40 years, and what reflections on what you've learned where the industry is going particularly over the next decade. Now we don't have an awful lot of time as you'll appreciate. Okay. Yeah, just a brain dump. So first of all, I think collaboration is essential and I think it's great. It is great to see the US back at the climate table. And I think if Europe and the US walk lockstep in arm and arm Glasgow, things that will really move on. You know, collaborating, you to you to now Marcus get in the way of us collaborating as well because we're competitors and as well, but through associations like your electric and we can collaborate. And I think that's really, really important. I think there's a unique opportunity here for Ireland as well because we have a big tech center here in Ireland, so the US multinational and best heavily in Ireland. So the role of multinational system play in the whole digital space, digitalizing the power sector. The whole question of corporate PPAs they've got a requirement for green energy. We want to work with people who are requirement for green energy. So coming together to collaborate in terms of long term investments is another area which all this collaboration can take place. In terms of my look back. I've had a fascinating time as I said at the start Alex I'd love to be starting in this industry again because I think it is. It's a fascinating industry. It is never dull and boring. There is so much for people to do. And we need people who can really reimagine what a power sector and the electricity system is going to look like for the good of society. I think in terms of, you know, people want today want to come and work for companies and sectors that can make a difference. And I think this sector does make a difference. And that's that's our proposition, if you like, to the young bright people out there who want to come and work as I reflect back particularly through the pandemic and on the last few years. The work we've done in ESB and people are anybody from Ireland the call knows that we were founded to kind of I suppose to light a spark in Ireland to energize the company at the foundation, the country at the foundation of the state and incredibly powerful vision for the company by the founding fathers of the company who were the political system of its day. And as we reflect on the last decade and reflect on the next two or three decades, it's making that connection with what we've come from as an industry. And particularly the utilities that some people call the legacy utility that's what we're anchored in and go back to what we were founded to do and take that forward to do the right thing for society. That's that's what my reflection Alex, you know, I think in ESB we've, we know our place and we found our place yet again, competition and regulation breaks the tradition utility structures apart. But there's something about an overlay on this which is about the greater good of society, which is in our deep in our DNA. And I suppose that's my, that's my emotion reflection Alex as I kind of move on. Alex, I might say, everybody in the Irish, but everybody in this industry is particularly Lopato Daugherty. No, no, that's fair. I think, and thanks for for saying that Tom and thank you for being, you know, giving us your time at this afternoon from the US. I was gonna say well this afternoon here this morning over there. And like you really did address you both did like such an amazingly wide range of issues with your, you know, with your distinct expertise that you both have and definitely the American perspective, you know, the future of the industry. It's always important here in Europe for a whole and especially at a time when, you know, this is the shared long term energy target of net zero now that we have for 2050 and Glasgow coming and all of this new collaboration has been great. It's just been terrific having you with us this afternoon Thomas thank you so much. And Pat, I want to just add just like to acknowledge first of all as your term comes to an end. The support you've given to the IEA. I mean I'm really privileged to be chairing these to have been asked by IEA and ESP to chair these sessions of the support that you've given to the IEA over the last decade has been immense. And I think the two organizations have, you know, collaborated very well on several occasions during that time with various conferences and lecture series in person and online in the last while. And just to give a platform for this leadership, this thought leadership and this cross-sectoral debate on these on these critical issues in energy policy I think it's been so valuable. And you know the success has been hugely enhanced by you know the constant support that we in the IEA have from the top leadership at ESP all the time and consistent just keeps coming back, you know, comes back. It's not all we throw, you know, we throw something into that and and have our logo. It's not that it's absolutely not that it's the opposite and that is a genuine commitment at an intellectual level at a public discourse level and it's been, you know, it's been remarkable to see that. So thanks for your unwavering commitment to this partnership and I wanted just on my own behalf as well just really wish you well. You were saying there a lot about that this is the phrase you said it's a fascinating industry. And, you know, I think it is a fascinating industry. But if somebody has said to me in 20 for even in early 2014 before I was appointed Minister for Energy, that this is a fascinating industry. I wouldn't necessarily argue with them because I wouldn't have known but it's not two words I would have put together about about about that energy or electricity. Within weeks of being Minister within weeks of actually, you know, reading in understanding it with really good civil servants and with terrific people like part of already, you know, being educated and understanding it I had no background, absolutely no background other than being an interested citizen of the country. And like I really have no problem embracing that phrase fascinating industry I think it really is because at the heart of the transformation of the whole world, the economy and societies as as you both refer to and so I want to wish Pat well to I remember a date and a number of many conversations that we had. And I was a minister for that long but you know, really, really informative but one, a particular occasion when we were down in Ardena Crusher, where you, you were there so your range of briefing myself my team went down to Ardena Crusher. And this is the you know, hydroelectric generator, which I'm sure you know, but when when Pat was talking there about the foundation of the state you know, this is we're talking about the mid to late 1920s when this huge effort like sort of its state building but it's also building of infrastructure and so fascinating to read about that time. So it was arranged that I will go down as opposed to new minister and there was Pat, the boss man was right there on the spot and the enthusiasm that you had the explaining showing me around your knowledge of it. You know the beautiful engineering in fact that is it was associated with the design and the delivery of that of that facility in the 1920s as you rightly say was so impressive so for all of those reasons and for many more that I'm sure many of this call will be able to attest. Thank you for your contribution, and you said you know you're finishing up you'd love to come back in. I don't think we've seen the last of you. Anyway, I joined as passive observer. Yeah, yeah. Well I'd say you'll, you'll have a role to play. I'm sure you will. Thank you once again, Pat. Thank you, Thomas. It's a pleasure to all of our participants, people who ask questions and people who attended this afternoon. It's been a terrific occasion. Thank you again soon. All the best, Tom. All the best to you. God bless you, Pat.