 I would now welcome some general reactions, observations to the presentations we've had. I'm going to give an opportunity to the lady who had a question carrying over from the presentation. Thank you very much. I guess to restate the question in facilitating a response, one of the slides that you presented indicated that 55 percent of informal vendors sell close to formal vendors. And so I was struck because in the research that I had done in four cities, ten different informal markets, the vendors tended to sell the overwhelming response at least in my research was that the vendors, the informal vendors tended to follow the consumers and in some instances those consumers were in the formal areas near the formal markets and in some instances they were at the bus stops and depots. So I guess I was hoping you could explain a little further and see if in your research you found a similar trend or if you had an observation in which this came across because I was just struck by the fact that so many of the more than half of the informal vendors in your research were selling informal market areas. Thank you. We are combining with the reactions just from the immediate presentation so we can combine both. Okay. Sawaan. Yeah. Hello. Yes, I know from University of Ghana. My question goes to the last presenter. You recommend that Africa should learn from other developed countries. So I want to ask more specifically, what are the recommendations that you give to Africa? So I ask this because I think the root cause of this waste disposal problem is strongly linked with education. Waste disposal in Africa is very illicit. People throw waste anywhere. Whereas when you come to the developed world, waste is sorted rightly from homes before people don't throw things about anyhow. I mean in Africa, government and some private companies, the PPP you are suggesting, some are in place but you see people still throw the waste out of the bins. So what specific recommendations would you really give to Africa on this waste disposal issue? Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Okay. Let's get it. It's needed to him. Let's get it. Thank you. I'm Manu Moabu from University of Nairobi in Kenya. You recommend that the informal waste sector be supported. The evidence you provide shows that it should not be supported because it's actually hazardous to health. And even the income that it provides also has a negative speed over even on other non-income welfare measures. And in fact, I feel that we shouldn't have a category of workers called scavengers. As scavengers are another form of poverty measure. The more scavengers we have, the greater the poverty in general. So we should actually move towards a system where we eliminate the informal waste sector category in the economy. We don't have scavengers in Finland. We don't have them in Japan. They are. In Japan? Yeah. And in the U.S. also. In New York, you can find, or in Los Angeles, you can find hundreds of them. Okay. So I'm sorry about that observation. I didn't know that they are there, but even there, there shouldn't be. My point is we should not have a category of workers called scavengers. Thank you very much. Let's get a reaction from Martin on. All right. Very, very good questions. Very good points. Yes. In terms of recommendations, oh, I could spend an hour probably in terms of recommendations. But basically, some of the main, the most important lessons that have been learned is that the people, yes, education should be, is a long-term solution, of course, including how waste affects people's health, how pollution from waste affects lakes, affects bodies of water, how it affects the air. And then how, then it can affect people, you know, eventually. But in terms of short-term solutions, one of the main ones is that people react to incentives. I mean, incentives are very powerful. For example, in one, an interesting program in Manila that I didn't present here, but if anyone is interested and can send you information, is that even in the slums, in the low income areas, if you provide an incentive, people will react, like, for example, if you buy materials, plastics, paper, metals by the kilo, there is certain, of course, differences in prices. You pay a certain amount for aluminum, a certain amount for other metals, for paper, cardboard, so there's different categories of, and then different prices paid. If you just pay people by the kilo, then even low income people will do whatever they can to separate their waste into different categories so that they can sell them. Another, in Surabaya, in Indonesia, the municipality decided to pay by the kilo of compost. They teach people each household can have its own compost bin, and they taught them how to do it. And then they provided the bins, and then they throw in their food leftovers, organics, and then they can make their own compost, and they're sold to the municipality. It's not much, it's like seven cents of a dollar per kilo, but that itself, for low income people, that is an incentive, and they will do. There's even some evidence that the people, children, or any other, will collect organic waste that is thrown on the streets so that they can process it, convert it into compost, and then make more money. I would suggest, read my book, and there's a lot of recommendations there, but basically incentives, proper policies, and I changed a shift related to your question, to the second question, is that a shift from the answer to the waste management programs in Africa, or in Asia, or in Latin America, is not high technology. Is that the technology used in Europe, or in Japan, is not. It's more appropriate, labor intensive technology that uses appropriate equipment, and that can be, for example, as I mentioned, I was in Sierra Leone recently, and while I was there, they were having serious problems in terms of, they use skips, you know, where people bring their waste, and then it's taken by a large truck. The truck was not operational because they didn't have the resources, they didn't have the spare parts that have to be imported to be functional. So there was no collection, no waste collection where I was there, and people just throw it through the waste around, wherever they can. So we need a shift of paradigm in terms of how, in terms of technology, in terms of considering the IWS, it can be a partner. There's a lot of evidence. In my book, I mentioned examples in Egypt, in the Philippines, Mexico, Argentina, Brazil, Colombia. There's a lot of evidence that shows that working with the WC is better than ignoring them, or better than repressing them. There are more and more governments are supporting the waste sector. But you are right. I mean, you are right. If you can see, if you haven't been to any landfill where there are waste speakers, I would suggest everyone go to these places to see how impressive it is. But what I'm proposing here is that, and actually what the people, they talk to the waste speakers in Brazil or in Colombia and other countries, they don't want to work there. They would rather work on the streets where there's segregation at the source so that they can only collect the materials that are already segregated, not on the landfills, not at the dumps. That is highly unsanitary and high risk to their health. That's not what they want. They want to collect on the streets and material that is already segregated that reduces the risk significantly. But before that, I would like to respond to the question which was... All right. So I think you're right. I mean, from the work we've done, it's quite clear that people choose to trade in parts of the city where there's a hive of economic activity. And those tend most often to be linked up with nodes of transport changes where the sort of buses and the sort of taxis and the trains tend to converge. I think the point that I didn't get to make is that there's a tension between the choices people make and the views that managers of these cities have about what these spaces should look like. So there's a view that these spaces should be modern spaces with a shift from informal retailing to formal retailing. And the large retailers are sort of moving into these areas. But it's still not clear to me whether that's... whether the sort of larger impact is one where formal retailing is replacing informal retailing or whether the changes in these spaces might increase the amount of economic activity and might well generate even more informal trading opportunities. But I think what's clear from the research and if I had the time to report on a large number of the focus groups is that there's massive amounts of harassment where managers of cities kind of have a view of the economy that is quite unlike this. And it sort of goes back to those models that are set up in the start. There's a view that what you want is an economy that is a more modern economy and all of this informal work which is where the bulk of the people are is somehow some sort of backward sector. And in some ways the discussion about the waste sector is not unlike that that managers want to come in and clean up the space. We'll make the space like it is in Finland rather than understanding what's the sort of nature of the economic activity that's happening. Thank you. Are there any observations from the floor? Our presenters have some final remarks I think, Ivan. I'm not sure about a final remark. I wanted to encourage the debate to keep going unless we are... Are we under time? Yeah, actually we are. The time is almost up. Okay, so just a comment to my colleagues, a question to my colleagues. What is distinctive, the question is what is distinctive about the waste sector and can we generalize from that for other parts of the informal economy? It strikes me that from listening to Martin that the issue of organization seems to be critically important to enable this activity to be more productive, to be safer, to improve the conditions of people working in it. There has to be a degree of organization and management about that to make a more efficient solution. So the question was how does that come about? How is it in Brazil and Colombia and these other places? It seems to be so positive the experience. I don't know what you're talking about, I guess it's emerged over years, but has the government played a role, does it have a role to play particularly in Africa, to support, to facilitate, to regulate, to enable this to happen? I think is the key issue and it's not just relevant to the informal waste sector, it's relevant as I say to all, to the informal economy generally. I don't know whether that question you want to pick up too. How does one improve upon the conditions in these informal sectors? Because in some cases it is dangerous, it is exploitative. How does one make progress, except through government? Do you have any remarks? In the case of Latin America, Brazil and Colombia, the private sector was very important and especially foundations and NGOs that did a lot of research that started to help the informal sector to get organized. The efforts started in Colombia and from there it spread throughout South America. So first getting people organized and then try to educate society and pressure to the decision makers and also research to show how the benefits or the informal sector, the economic impact of their activities. That was also, for example, very important in Argentina and Buenos Aires. After the 2002 serious economic crisis, the informal sector grew dramatically. They were a group of academics who brought organized events to educate the policy makers and they reacted positively. In just one year, it went from repression to active promotion of the activity. Thank you very much. I think let's give a round of applause to our presenters.