 Thank you for joining me as I sit down with Pastor David and Marie Rosales from Calvary Chapel, Chino Valley as we discuss marriage, raising children, and managing difficulties that arise in the family. We're ready to begin, so let's talk marriage. Welcome everybody to Let's Talk Marriage and want to welcome Pastor David Marie. Thank you for joining us today. You know, I want to ask the people who are watching, if you're a Christian, have you ever felt disappointed, frustrated, or even angry with your spouse? If you have, you're not alone. And you may not even know where to turn in situations like this. And this is why we're able to get practical things from Pastor David and Marie and how to get through challenging times that we may face in our marriages. And so I'd like to just touch on six specific topics that are challenges in the marriages and actually get your feedback on them and your many years of marriage brings practical light into how people can adjust to these. So my first one is I want to speak a little about communication challenges. We know that communication is a huge challenge in the marriage, whether we're Christians or not. It seems that as this topic comes up almost daily, even when I talk to people about marriage, I wanted to ask you both, what are the key factors at play here when challenges come when the challenge is in communication? I think that one of the things that has helped me, and I'll speak first for myself, that has helped me with trying to learn to communicate is to learn to listen and to try and listen with my heart rather than just my analytical mind because I have a very, very, as you may have noticed, I've got an analytical way about me. So I take your words for what they are and I'll define what you're saying by the words you choose to use. And so I guess you just learn to do that trying to be clear in your communication to an audience, you know, to a congregation. So you don't want to be misunderstood. And so you begin to choose your words as carefully as you can. And I've been doing that for a long time. So when Marie and I began to go out, I tried to listen at first to get to know her language. What is she saying? What is she communicating? And frankly, it's been many years now. And I would not say that I am fluent in Marie, but I would say that I'm pretty close to it, because I really do spend a lot of time trying to hear what's behind the words, and sometimes even anticipating. Like people may notice that in our meeting here, the way we are, I do a lot of the talking. And I know that women would like to hear my wife speak more and all of that, and I understand that. So does she. But in our relationship, Marie has always felt most comfortable with me just answering for us. And so that's how it is. It's not that she can't answer, or that I stifle her from answering or anything like that. Is that as you have probably grown to see in our relationship, she just feels more comfortable letting me do those things. And I do it because I love her, not because I disrespect or don't want her to speak. I value what she says. But very often, John, she just wants me to speak for us. And that's what I do. But that came after dating her and trying to learn the things that matter to her. And that's what a husband is to do. I mean, the Apostle Peter said that husbands are to dwell with their wives with understanding. You know, the word dwell means to cohabit, to go habitate. It means to make the home into a place that is actually where a family abides. And not to use your house, like if it were a motel where you just hang your hat and just get up in the morning and leave, it's got to be a place where a family dwells. And so when he says dwell with your wife with understanding, it means to make an effort to help to create a home. And a lot of men, to a lot of men that's foreign, they think that the woman is the homemaker. Well, that's not true. We both create a home. And it's going to be after our image. And so the image marine I wanted to create is a blended image. It's who we are together in this home. That takes work. It takes effort. And it takes practice. You dwell with your wife according to knowledge. That means that you make her your chief study, the one that I look at the closest to get to know the best. And so Marie can tell you that she's even used that recently, how I study her. It's true. I study my wife. I watch how she reacts. I can anticipate now because we've been together for so long, and we spend a lot of time together. I can anticipate and you've seen this in me when I've said, no, she really won't like that. Or just a moment ago, you were playing some music and I said, she likes that song. Watch what she does when she walks in. You know, so that's how it worked. Now, you may find this interesting that when Marie and I dated John and for the early years of our relationship, I never turned the radio on in our car. When we drove, we didn't have music. No, we would just talk. We would just visit. And eventually I became her music because she wanted me to sing to her. And so she would say, can you sing this song or can you sing? And she's the only person in my life that I ever was comfortable enough to kind of share my voice with her, to sing with her. And she wasn't critical. She she even she's tone death. So she appreciated I sang to her. And that became us. And that's again, to this day, she'll she asks me to do that to this day, you know, I like you know, and that's us. And so we learned that through trying to know each other's not only the words as they are defined, but words as they are intended. And so that that takes work. It takes work because a lot of people say, you know what, I've heard that enough. I don't want to hear it anymore. Well, it's you don't hear with just your ears. You're supposed to hear with your heart, you're supposed to look beyond what's being said to what may be motivating that or, you know, why are you saying why? Honey, is there something what have I done? Have I done something to hurt you? If so, please let me know. You know, and you'll hear that by the way they speak. Again, Maria is very reserved. She's very reserved. And she doesn't really say what's on her mind a lot. She really doesn't. So I've learned to watch her. So I know when something's concerning her or something may bother her. And that's what I'll do. And I'll say, baby, what's wrong? You know, you got something on your mind? You know, what's up? You know, and and she of course, she loves me. And she'll tell me when she's ready or even at that moment. She'll say, I was thinking this or this is what I was feeling. So that that takes work and effort, but it's it's it's the work that you need to do. It's worth it's worth all the work. It's worth. I think it's part of valuing and cherishing, to be honest with you, it it helps her to know I care. It helps her to know I want to know you. I want to dwell with you in this way. And so communication is not just speaking. Communication is listening. And it's the way that you listen. And it's learning to interpret and it's learning to put into into your way of being a couple, how we are together. And again, Marie and I have, we have never found a lack of time to talk. That's the truth. That is the truth. From the moment we went out, we talked all night. I mean, I'll all day. Not all night, baby. No, that's right. Not all night, but all day. And it was, oh, it was consistent. We never had a lack of words. Never. Because you're so interested in one another because there I see even when people that come in, there is, yeah, that honeymoon phase type of new relationship. Everything's brand new and nice. And we have our perfect behavior. Communication is great. What is it that has kept your communication so, so, I don't want to say it so lively all these years? Well, in part, John, I was a new believer. So they poured into me a lot about the Lord during those times, those early times. And because there's things that I had no clue of. So a lot of it revolved around the Lord, the things of God. And just I wanted to learn and be in study and learn about Him as my Savior. And so... Maria is very, she would never say this of herself because I don't think she's supposed to. So I'll say it for her. Maria's got a very deep, deep love for the Lord, a very deep and personal one. She really does. And she's a good person. And things of God and the things that relate to Jesus. And all of that means a lot to her. She's not an ordinary person when it comes to ordinary in the sense of, you know, I have my categories. I am interested in this here and this here and this here. I would say easily say that she's got a spirituality that's very, very real, very concrete. It's very much her. And for me, that's what I needed. I needed somebody who has a deep longing for God because I like to talk about the Lord. You know, because I like to. And I like answering questions. I enjoy that. It sharpens me as a believer to be able to put things together. It helps me to learn to communicate to others. But it also just, it thrills me to be able to communicate to the most important person in my life, the things of the Lord, who is the most important person above all other people in my life. Right. And so we've had that from the beginning. Marie had a very deep curiosity about God and the things of God. And I had a great desire to learn those things too and to find out how can I explain the things I'm learning. So that's always been the basis of our relationship. Now, our first date wasn't all theological. I mean, if people think, oh, what did you do? Did you teach her the Gospel of John for those 13 hours in the Greek? Yeah. No, what it is, is we have a well-rounded relationship. We talk about whatever is interesting to both of us. But the core of that revolves around our faith, the thing that matters. Because that's what makes us who we are, is people. And so when Marie got saved, I really took a very serious interest in her spiritual life. Very serious. I mean, over-the-top serious at first. Again, remember, people may not know this, but I was really a relatively young believer myself. I mean, I got saved at the age of 20. But I went into the military and I was gone for those 21 months of active service. I got a three-month early discharge. Then I went to Bible college. And so in Bible college in 1973, I started teaching in 1973. And so I met Marie in 1974. And so I was still learning myself. I was still trying to grow in my understanding of the ways of the Lord. And I didn't have all these answers, but I had been in a group of believers in the army called the navigators. And they stress certain things. Memorization was one of them. And this is kind of how I learned how to be with Marie, to let her be who God made her to be. Because I never had a successful relationship with a woman in my life. And I didn't have many women in my life at all. I only had a couple significant relationships. And the rest of those were just kind of the kind of relationships young people have, where I might see you here at a party or whatever. But it doesn't mean anything. It doesn't go anywhere. But Marie was the most significant person I had ever had a relationship with. Because when I met her, I was already ready to stop playing the field. And I wasn't on the hunt for somebody. But when I met her, I knew I could be with this person. I knew that. And the Spirit of the Lord had made it very clear. Even though I didn't act emotionally on it, I didn't. He said, this is the one. And so, I haven't kissed another woman. I haven't held hands romantically with another woman, or anything, since Marie came into my life. So she's the one I invested in. So I was telling her, you need to memorize these scriptures and this and that. And I was gone for three months. I went to Europe, and I came back. And I said, okay, Marie, what's Romans 310? Because I had given the way of using the book of Romans to bring people to faith. What's Romans 310? The Roman road. Roman road. What's Romans 310? What's Romans 323? What's Romans 623? What's Hebrews 927? What's John 524? You know, I'd given all these scriptures because I memorized those, because I was taught to do that, right? She tried to quote them, and she just couldn't. And she got so upset at herself, because I'm in communication. I'm direct. So I look at her, and I say, what have you been doing while I've been gone? I gave you this as an assignment. And I was like that. I gave you this assignment. This is good for your spiritual walk. And you didn't even take time to try and memorize it. I was bugged. And she starts to cry, and she goes running into her room, and her roommate tells me, you know, Marie's tried so hard, David. She's tried so hard. So I walked into the room, and she was sitting on the edge of her bed crying. It was a little thing. I mean, you know, I didn't understand it. I came from a different background. And I said, I don't understand this. Why are you so upset? I'm just speaking to you, asking you questions. And she tells me I tried so hard. I don't remember the way you can. And I looked at her, and I nodded my head. And again, I was like 20, 25, because I'd just gotten back from Europe. And I said, Oh, and that's when I began, that's when God planted the seed. You let her be who she is. I didn't create two of you. She's to be who she is. And I'll never forget that. The Lord has firmly imparted to me that kind of thing in my marriage numerous times. And that was one of the very first times. And it's true. I mean, people may not believe that, but I'm not saying that this, saying this just for melodramatic effect, it's true. The Holy Spirit spoke to my heart and said, she is not you. I created her in my image. Stop trying to form her in yours. Wow. It's a truth. And I looked at her and it wasn't instantaneous. It was from there. Marie can tell you this, you know, when we started our fellowship, there were people saying, Oh, she should be up there in the pulpit teaching the women. I said, that's not her gift. She needs to be using her gifts the way God has gifted her. And I was her shield to keep people from saying, you need to do this as a pastor's wife, because my wife's gifts are not standing up every week giving Bible studies. She can do that, but she's better at the things that she's better at. And I would rather have her do what God gifted her to do, because look at our woman's ministry. I would rather she do what she does the way she's gifted than to try and press her into K Smith's mold, which is what people wanted her to be. They wanted another K Smith. Well, Marie's not married to Pastor Chuck. Marie's married to me. And so that's the stuff you learn through communication. What is it she's supposed to do? How can I help her? How can I free her? And that comes to knowing her through talking to her, learning bad through bad experiences, learning lessons, and then freeing her to be Marie Rosales, not Marie David Rosales, but Marie Rosales. And it's the wisest thing God ever gave to me with this girl is let her be who she is. I formed her in my image and I don't need two of you and she's here to help you. And so that's how it works with us. And that's why I think we've always valued talking to each other. I'd like to teach her and stuff, but I teach Marie through communication talking. Through talking. She'll say something and I'll say, well, you know, and it's conversational. And she'll go, oh, yeah. And that's, but I've always done that. A couple of things. I mean, I think about all the years that pastors poured into you. Actually, I can see back a little bit now that even in those times where she wanted to, when you were given her memory verses, you were still discipling her. In a sense. Yeah. But was it at that point, Pastor, where you learned that there is a given taken communication style? Because I think a lot of times people begin to think it's my way or the highway or no, I'm not changing. You need to change. And then communication styles come to a halt because it's not fitting their mold or their, I like what you said, it's making, not making her into the image of Pastor David, but making her into the image of allowed her to be the image of God. I think it comes through value in that person you're speaking to, you know, there's that old saying, if I wanted your opinion, I'd give it to you, right? Is that old saying? But I value her opinion. I want to know what she thinks. I want to know how she feels because it adds to me, you know, the two become one flesh. That means something. And so what she believes and what she, what she feels and what she needs, all of that matters to me because it's my job to do my best in the Lord to meet those needs. And if I don't know what those needs are, how can I do that? And at first I told Marie when we were first married, you may remember, I said this, I said, I'm not a mind reader. I don't want to impose on you what my thoughts are about you. I need to hear your voice so I can know what you want. Because Marie wants to please me. She really has always wanted to be that person that I'm happy with. She really wants to please me. And so I didn't want her saying things that she thought I wanted to hear. And she learned that. We learned that. We're a young couple, but she learned that real because I tell her that I'm not interested in you repeating. You don't have to repeat what I've said to you. I want to know what you feel. I want to know where your heart is. I don't want to be your brain. I used to say to her in our early days, honey, I've only got faith for myself. I can't be your faith too. You have to develop it. And she has, and she has over these years developed a strong faith. But that's how we were at the beginning. I would say I'm not going to do it for both of us. I can't. One, it's not biblical, and two, it's not possible. So what we need is we need you to be who you are. A lot of people see me in the pulpit. Those who come here to this church, they see that I open up and emotionally I'm vulnerable quite often, but they don't know that that's in the pulpit. That's I'm pouring out. I'm saying this is who I am. I'm being vulnerable, and that's a challenge, and it's draining to do that. Even though that's who I am anyway, I'm very open and vulnerable. But they may think that, well, all men are logical and all women are emotional. Now, Marie's very logical. Marie's very logical. She's very black and white, cut and dry. She sees things clearly. And in our relationship, I'm very, very logical also, but I allow myself to feel, you know, and I had to actually learn to do that. Whereas Marie, that's really real composed. She really keeps her feelings pretty much to herself. And people don't know that about us and don't really know that about her, that I have a much easier way of emoting where my wife is much more reserved by far. That's the different families we came from. It's interesting that those two styles come together have become one. My parents were, they were, I would say, very reserved. Yeah. Very proper. Very proper. Very proper. Quiet family. Well, when Marie one time, Marie had gotten something had hurt her. We were dating, something had hurt her. And I'm a nurturer, you know, that's what I do. And she was hurting. And so I put my arm around her to kind of console her, you know, just to embrace her for a moment. She pushed me away. She put her hands on me and pressed me away. I don't like being touched when I'm upset. She told me that. That's true. Yeah. And I looked at her and I said, I don't really care. And I said, you need to be held. And so I put my arms around her and I held her until she stopped kicking. No, until she she realized that I'm not violating her, her personal space. I'm coming in to help heal. And she realized that I did, you know, but people know my wife is very loving and expressive. And you know, you've known her since you were a little boy. At least that's when you met her. And, but Marie is very reserved and has actually blossomed and opened up. But the girl I met was not the girl I met was very, very closed. And very much her father and mother's child, very much. She didn't hug. She didn't kiss you on the cheek. She didn't do any of that. Those are all things she's learned through me. That's, that's a truth. She's learned that through me. Because that's what I do. You know, I embrace, I hold, I love, I tell you, I love you. I don't kiss other women. But in our family, our families, you've seen our family, we kiss each other when we see each other, you've seen my grandchildren, my babies, they'll see each other and they'll walk up and kiss each other. We're very warm like that. But that comes through me. That came through me. It didn't come from Marie's side. And it's interesting because you look at Marie. And when you think of Marie, that's what you think of. Because even though the women, how much they love you and the women's ministry, you just, you think of Marie, when you think of Marie Rose, all of us, you think of loving and warm and, you know, which you are. Unless somebody starts, like, coming in something with pantyhoses or something at a young age. Some little twisted guy wants to rub a woman's leg like, I won't mention John's name. You won't mention my name? That's right. You were, what, six years old? Six years old. Six years old, John. That was funny. You were fascinated with nylon. You started wearing them yourself, as I remember. You know, one of the things that you mentioned in communication is hearing from the heart. What are the dangers when, in our minds, we're already formulating an answer in our minds to respond and not really hearing what our spouses are saying? Yeah, that's where things don't get resolved, right? Right. That's where they don't get resolved. And what I'll do with Marie is if I will say, I think I'm hearing this, but clarify it for me. I know I'm misunderstanding you. I know I am. And you need to know what I'm thinking. I'm thinking this. Where am I wrong? Help me to know. See, I think humility runs deep in relationship. A man has to be willing to say, you know what, honey, I could be wrong. But the woman has to realize that she could be too. Yeah, that's true. Because sometimes women seem to, not all, of course, I'm a stereotype because I know that we're all different. But sometimes I hear this a lot, and maybe that's why I'm saying this. I hear this a lot where men will say, well, she's in control and she's the boss. And, you know, he may be the head, but I'm the neck and I twist his head wherever I want it to go. She wears the pants, right? You hear something? She wears the pants. And you see a lot of women who actually do. That's true. They actually do. And you look at them and me, biblically, I think, well, you know, what does it mean for me to be the head of the wife the way Christ said I am to be? And if they have a methodology that works well for them and he actually is, the head, I'll give you an example. My mom was very strong-willed. And my mom would say it was on her mind. My dad was very quiet and reserved. It's very similar to us. And Marie's very quiet and reserved in me. I was more open. But when my dad, when my dad said, no, that's enough. That's how he would say it. Because I grew up with these parents. And I saw them when they were in the good times and the bad. And they didn't fight in front of us a lot. My parents, if they argued, would do it behind closed doors. They didn't fight in front of the children. Marie and I have never argued in front of the children. We don't do that. We both came from backgrounds that were undermined. We don't do that. Well, we learned it from our parents. Yes. So my parents had a difficulty. On occasion, I could see it. I mean, some things are real obvious. There's a problem here today. But there was always that they will hash that out between the two of them. So that we don't have to be emotionally involved in choose sides, and we didn't do that. Well, with Marie, I had to learn how to lead. And the way that I learned to lead was by learning her ways. Because when I began to learn her ways, I knew how I could influence her without violating her personhood, without making her feel less. And because I think men who lead with that, you're going to do what I say on the head of this house. And you're digging a hole for yourself because you lose the wife's respect. And if your wife really loves you, she wants what's best for both of you, right? So why wouldn't I love Marie enough to hear her input? What do you want about this, honey baby? What do you want for that? And it's not that I'm yielding up the right to make the decision. Marie can say this herself, that when it comes to the final decision, I have that responsibility. And it's just true. I certainly don't want it. There you go. Yeah, she doesn't want it. And it's a fact. But she won. She yielded to that because biblically, the man is the head of the woman. And Paul made that clear in his writing in 1 Corinthians 11. But I also am to love, cherish, nourish, and do all of those things, as Paul said in Ephesians 5. And so when those things combine, when the man says, baby, what is it you want to do? Because we've gotten to this point, and I think that maybe it's just that we've been together for so long that we don't care that much about a lot of stuff, John. It's not like we're going to go to the mat about this. We don't care. We've already wrestled those things out. So we're at peace and have been for many, many years. So true. So I'll say, baby, what do you want to do? You know, where do you want to go? What do you want to eat? But she'll do the same thing to me. Well, you want, you know? And then two old people sitting on a couch, not feeling, Marie doesn't feel like cooking today. And I'm just kind of going, I don't really care. You know, what do you want to do? I don't know what do you want to do? And that's kind of our way now. But that's a lot of things don't matter. And the only things that we ever get up tight about are the things that do. And so when we have a disagreement, the way that I handle it as a man is, I'll tell her, I'll say, listen, you know, this is bothering me and that I need to hear, you know, this is what I'm feeling. Tell me what you're feeling. So we can work this out and that's what we do. That's what we do. And she'll say, if she feels like talking, because sometimes she may not want to, you know, because she's quiet and reserved. And so I'll say, when you're ready, we need to talk because we're not going to let this get by. And she'll normally just say, oh, you know, I was just thinking, or, you know, I'm sorry. I've been feeling. And I'll say, oh, I understand. Okay, that's great. Let's just, let's just go. And then it squashed. Yeah, right then. Yeah. No need to rehash it. No need to pour into it more than it's really there. It's really not that big a deal, John. Most of the things that divide people are the small foxes that spoil the vines. That's so true. It's the small things. And they continue it because in their mind, they're continuing it on in your, and it gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And it really wasn't a big thing in the beginning. And then they forget what they're arguing about. And then everything else comes up the ways I've been mad about and never told you about. Yeah, which is ridiculous. Talking about opening a can of worms, that and that can go on that crazy cycle. Thanks again for tuning in. Let's Talk Marriage is a ministry of Calvary Chapel Chino Valley. 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