 and welcome to my show. Just before I came in here to the studio, I got some tragic news about a dear friend and fraternity brother from Bowdoin College. His name, Paul Sol, who went to during high school in Bowdoin College was drafted by the Dallas Cowboys. He passed away last night in a tragic incident. And I just found out about it, and I want to give just a couple moments of silence for him. Thank you. We begin our show with another friend who passed away recently. His name, Effley Bailey Esquire. And I'm so proud to know that in my last interview, which has been airing for the last couple of months with one of my co-hosts today, Rob Baldacci, we interviewed Effley Bailey. And we had the last interview with him before he passed away. It was a great honor for both of us. There was a magazine article done about him which is out now, a magazine called Tribute, done by one Giovanna Bonomo. And I dedicate this show to her and to Jenny Sisson, who would be Effley Bailey's assistant and who helped us organize that show. So I begin by asking you first, Ken. Ken, you were the person that first introduced me to Effley Bailey. You had a case going with him. And then he went to Chicago when you became the head of the National Divorce Lawyers. What was it like to have him speak on your behalf at that event a few years ago? Why? Quite a few years ago. Well, it was a great honor. And I have to tell this story because of course, you and I are law partners. And I get our receptionist, Michelle, one day said to me, some clown who says he's Effley Bailey's on the phone. And so I say, yeah, so I pick it up. I assumed it was you doing a joke. And I heard a deep resident voice and I recognized his voice immediately. Says, hi, this is Lee Bailey. And I have a legal issue in Maine. I'd like you to help me out on the hearings tomorrow. Thanks a lot, Lee. So, Lee and I got to be very close friends. And so I was sworn in as president of the American Academy of Matrimony Lawyers in 2012. And we're allowed to pick somebody to swear us in. And to me, the greatest legal mind I know of in the history of the United States of America is Lee Bailey. I mean, I just, hands down. And he just, I said, Lee, would you do me the honor? He said, sure, when do we go? And he came and swore me in. And I will tell you, there was some controversy about it. I remember that camp, because I was there. Really? Some people, because it was just barred in Florida. We thought that that was such a stain on him that we, same as those bar association in Maine. I must say, in a certain example. We can talk about that, I'm sure. But, you know, I said to people, he's actually Bailey. What are you talking about? I know. You know, you guys aren't even in the shadow. Right. So I was very honored and it was thrilling. And he was a good friend and a great lawyer and just a great legal mind. I just don't think you do better than athlete bank. Ken, the reason why I remember that is because I carried his bags through the airport. And I said to him, well, his bags, because we were on the same plane, had the hotel rooms next to each other, and I said, Lee, one of the greatest honors of my life be carrying your bags through the airport. And Ken, I also remember that once he got there, I don't think there was a person there that didn't want to come over and get a selfie with him. Absolutely. And yeah, he gave a great speech. I was so proud to go there with you. Rob, I recall at his birthday party, probably seven years ago, his 80th birthday, out in Falmouth, he was thanking various people in his life. He thanked you, Ken. He thanked Peter Detroit, his lawyer. And then he goes, and I want to thank someone, very special, Rob Baldacci. So over the last several years, you became quite close to him and quite involved in some of his understandings of his project. What about with some of his projects here in Maine, like the aviation project? Well, he got involved with Oxford Aviation. And I had been involved with a number of startup companies, and I'd always seek out Lee for advice. And he was just incredible. And we had a company that made headphones, headsets for the fast food industry. And Lee got to be on the board of advisors. His advice and counsel was just incredible. And when I had my shows here at the Channel 5, we had a call pitch me. And Lee, every one of those shows, he made a point of sitting in on the panel. As we listened to entrepreneurs, whether they're a 12-year-old, we had a kid's show. And it was just precious to a number of entrepreneurs who've gone on to be very, very successful here in Maine. And those shows, thankfully, are all available on YouTube. But Lee was so generous with his time, Darius, and his friendship. I mean, he and I became very, very close. And I remember as a birthday present, he said, Rob, I want to take you and Beth to meet B.B. King, who he and B.B. King were very close. And they traveled all around the country to talk with the prison inmates to help them. It's a big project for him. That was. In fact, in B.B. King's autobiography, he goes on at length about his friendship with Lee. So we had a chance in Bangor to meet him. And it was incredible, incredible opportunity. He sat on the stage. B.B. King asked us to sit on the stage, introduced Lee, introduced us to the thousands of people that attended the concert. And it was, and there were a lot of stories that emanated from that, which I won't get into today. But he's incredible, incredible friend, Derry, and spent a lot of time working with businesses, working with me on a number of different projects. So I miss him terribly. Ken, over the years of our show here along the line, and thank you so much, Ken. The reason folks I'm here is because of this wonderful law partner to join my firm. And the next thing, I know my career skyrocketed. But Ken, you've interviewed and had a lot of celebrities on your G.A. and talk show. You've been on national news. You've commented on national things. Where does F. Lee Bailey place in terms of the people that you've interviewed and talked with in terms of his eloquence and his legal ability? Well, this is the thing about Lee Bailey. He was a great lawyer, the greatest law lawyer. I would agree. And he was a personality. Right. He became an entertainment personality. TV shows, he was larger than life. And when you think about great lawyers in the history of the United States and other countries, how many of them became a TV personality? Personality in his own right. Right, that's right. And he was magnetic. Perry Mason. But he was real. And he was so animated, he was like a great law lawyer. He was a storyteller, because trial law is telling a story to a jury and resonating with them. And having them identify with your client. And of course, he had the greatest cases in the history. And he took, I mean, the Sam Shepard case, which was, he represented him on his 11th appeal. 10 appeals. Wasn't the 11th appeal? Oh, I didn't know that. 10 got denied. He took the 11th appeal and won. And it becomes the TV show of the fugitive. And it becomes the movie of the fugitive. Yeah, Patty Merce. You have the Boston Stringray. And what I loved about Lee is, Lee was not one of these lawyers who's every client's innocent. You represent, oh no, my client was innocent. Patty, he really said it right there. Yeah, of course, he says that OJ Simpson was innocent, which we can get into. She does, he did his book. But he talked about the Boston Stringray, who he described to me as the most evil man he had ever met. Oh my goodness. He talked about Patty Hearst. He talked about Sam Shepard. He talked about these big cases. And it was very honest and forthcoming about it. So what's so great to interview him was he was real. He was honest. He was direct. And he was down to earth. He never came off as being superior to anyone. No, no. He remembered his roots. Ken, one of the people that I know, among my friends, whatever, made a comment when he was arrogant. I go, arrogant? I said, exactly the opposite. They go, I said, no, exactly the opposite. Ken, I remember he did an interview just before he spoke to the Chamber of Commerce about his prison program. Right. And I'll never forget. He's talking about the case. And you know, co-host at the time or a man nameless made a comment like, excuse me, come on. What about this? What about that? I'll never forget. He goes, well, one of us was president of that trial every day. And the other one has a talk show. He even brought one to me. Well, that was he also with Mike Violet. Mike Violet, who I still do a periodic reaction to. I just said he was typical of Mike. Well, he was talking about the O.J. Simpson. Yes, he was. Mike said, oh, come on. Everybody knows he's guilty. That's right. That's right. Everyone who doesn't know the evidence. And Lee Bailey explained why O.J. Simpson, from his perspective, was innocent. We all look at, oh, how could it be innocent? Well, Lee Bailey would tell you why and agree with you. Exactly. And exactly. I would encourage everybody to read his new book. Yeah, and Rob, how many times have people said to you, oh, I'm not going to bother and go, that's because you want to hold on to your opinion. If you want to read something that's mesmerizing, go ahead. And Rob, I've told people, as an attorney, when I finished that book, I absolutely had a reasonable doubt, even without the firm testimony. I hope it's sales off the charts. And Rob, I want to talk to you about the interview that Giovanna wrote. And she's apparently a culpous author. And she writes for this high-end magazine. And that article, they're going to post it up on the screen here, so you folks can see it. But it was very complimentary to him. Well, I had reached out to her, and she's phenomenal. She's the feature editor for a world renowned magazine called Preferred Magazine, based out of Canada. She lives in Italy. And she was in the process of arranging an interview with Lee. And we had to cancel it a couple of times because of his health. And unfortunately, he passed away. So she still wanted to do an article. And I'd recommended that she connect with you and a number of other people. And the result is just a great testament to Lee. And I'm so, so proud of what she did. And I think Lee is up in heaven, looking down with a big smile on his face, saying, all right. It was the first article, Rob. And I was so proud to be quoted in it. And I thought to myself, when would my name be mentioned in the same breath or sentence as the name F. Lee Bailey? For me, Ken and Rob, it was a dream come true because I followed him as a student in junior high, then in high school, then in law school. And I told Lee this story once. I said, Lee, back in high school, if you started asking a bunch of questions to your friends, I'd go, who do you think you are? F. Lee Bailey? That's right, exactly. Well, he was the bar was very high. Was the epitome of trial law? You know, folks, I don't want to get to the end and then realize we didn't have enough time to cover the subject because the subject was, Maine's ties to Maine, we know about the prison project that he advocated to give these guys a job. That if you give them jobs, they will, the chances of recidivism are very low. But what I want to get to is the Maine bar admission that all three of us were involved in. You, Rob and Ken, you testified on his behalf. I did an effort. David on his behalf. My dear friend, Peter Detroit was his lawyer. Did a great job. And Ken, for the audience's understanding, he takes the bar, takes it in a suit, by the way. 80 years old, 81, yep. Then they vote five to four. There's nine people on the bar examiners, they're called. Some are laypeople, some are lawyers, and they vote five to four. Not eight to one or seven, five to four against. He appeals to Donald Alexander, one of the finest justices in Maine history, who was a Supreme Court judge. He hears the case, Ken. You testify. Evidence, all kinds of evidence and testimony comes in there and Donald Alexander says, he gets admitted. And they appeal to the Supreme Court, which comes down three to two with a chief justice dissenting against them. Ken, my question to you is, could they have just left it at Donald Alexander and let them have the license? Or would they compel to follow that appeal? Of course they're not. And this is a black stain, in my opinion, on the Maine bars. I agree. I have to say, and I'm very proud to be a lawyer. I'm very proud to be a lawyer in Maine. I think for the most part, lawyers are ethical and responsible in the state of Maine. The disbarment of Lee Bailey in Florida was a sham, in my opinion. It was a political move. There was some dispute about his fee with a client who was a government witness and the government says, you can't keep it, we get it. And he was getting paid that way. But so what? I mean, this was not an ethical violation. This was really a political thing. But even if you got disbarred, that was years ago. This is the greatest lawyer who's ever lived in the United States. And he wasn't a member of the Maine Bar Association. And you're telling me he can't be because he doesn't meet your ethical standards seriously. And it was outrageous. And frankly, I was embarrassed that the Board of Overseers rejected his application in five to three, five to four. I think Justice Alexander had a two-day trial. Right. Extensive testimony. And Lee would have testified. Sure, of course. So Lee testifies before Donald Alexander, who they say one of the most brilliant, and he gets to see the credibility. He gets to see the emotion of this man and the honesty of this man. And yet, and says, oh, okay, I think he's ready to come back and practice. And for some reason, the law court, three to two, whatever. And let me ask you another thing. Go ahead, Kenny. With all due respect, but lawyers make mistakes. We're human. There are lawyers in every state, including Maine that have done some pretty bad things, have paid their dues, have been re-admitted to the bar. Exactly. Nothing close. I mean, far worse than Lee Bailey. And they're practicing members of the bar now. And it is a stain and I have to apologize for being critical of my bar association. But Lee was one of the most ethical people I ever met. I asked him advice in ethical quandaries. True. And he gave me advice. And to say that this person doesn't meet the ethical standard of the Maine Bar Association? Nonsense. I agree. It was a travesty. Thank you, Ken and Rob, because now you two are on my committee. I'm committed to keep his name alive in this state and to honor him in some aspects with scholarships or something that we'll figure out to do. I hope so. Rob, you had the opportunity to get to know other people in his life. For example, he was very close to Harry Belafonte. He would tell you stories about these. Can you tell me a story you remember that he might have told you about some celebrity? Like Sinatra or something? Frank Sinatra. Belafonte, Connie Francis. Connie Francis, oh my God. Who he dated for a while. With Lee, it was a joy to sit down with him and just listen to him. Whether it was the JFK assassination or the Mealy massacre or Watergate. He was involved. People really don't realize this. He was involved in a lot of these. And whether it was a mafia boss from New York or a TV personality, he was, the thing that I was impressed with Lee is, and I would encourage your viewers to watch a speech that he made here in Maine talking about how to give a speech. And if you ever listened to Lee or watched him, he never said ah. He never hesitated or said you know. That's right. Brilliant. I was going to mention you never said, okay. Okay, it was incredible. And he spoke without notes and he would talk about how prepared he would get to present a case. And if you ever watched any of his cross examinations, he never had a note with him. Remarkable man. I don't think we'll ever see anybody quite like him, Derry and Ken. Derry comes pretty close. Derry's close. Derry's close. That's the funniest thing we've said all day long. Derry's close. Talk about opposite ends of a continuum, Derry, definitely Bailey. You know, when I first started practicing law and doing criminal cases, I read his book by Bailey and Rothblatt. How to do a criminal trial. Oh, you do. And I remember one day pulling some antique in the courtroom when I remember the judge asked me, Derry, where did you get that? I go, the Bailey book. He goes, well, don't do it again. You know, reading some of the Bailey's books, what a great book. To be a great writer. Great writer. Just was a great writer. I mean, just he was all around just an incredible human being. Yeah. Really much. So much to give. Ken, you wrote a little small story. I don't know if you want to share the complete details about a birthday card that you got from Lee. Tell us, Kenny. Yeah. Kenny. 60th birthday. Yeah. I got a birthday card from him. He had a little blue pill. I didn't get to go. That's as far as we'll go. Don't ask me why you thought it was a big gift. I gave it back to him, by the way. Oh, you didn't use it? Well, he was, let's be honest, he was 19 years older than me. That's right. Okay. So let's be fair. Yeah, I'm sure that pill was a saw in the X. Yeah. I could do some other Lee Bailey stories, but I think I won't. Yeah, no, I'm saying here. Well, you know, when I remember the first night we had dinner, the three of us with him over in Falmouth, and he was chatting, and I did mention Frank Sinatra, and this is what I thought was very credible. I said, Lee, Harry Bell, what about Frank Sinatra? Now, I expected him to say, oh, like this, oh my God, he'd call me every day for advice. He goes, well, we had dinner one night, but it was two big egos in the same room. He says, so I'm not sure we got real close to each other. I thought to myself, what an honest answer to say, that two big egos, and I wanted to say, you know, really, so you think you have Sinatra? He had the same issue with Donald Trump when he met with him. Oh, really? Roy Cohn, the stories Lee would tell. I think one of the funniest things that experiences I had with Lee is he always promoted himself as, you know, the best airline pilot, sailor, you know, he grew up on the water, and oh yes, oh yes, just ask him, he'd tell you. But my wife happens to be a very accomplished sailor. I'm not gonna go into the whole detail of it, but we had dinner reservations at Diamond Cove, and Lee had a sailboat, Beth and I were joining him, and he and Debbie at the time, and it was, I won't say it- A harrowing experience? A harrowing experience, to the point where I think Beth, it got so bad, he almost killed me, coming on the way back, because the boat got tangled up on some lobster pots, and it was a cluster, if you know what I mean. And we came out of it, Beth was not pleased, and I don't think she talked to Lee for maybe a year or so, correct. So what kind of a boat? He was trying to drag them through the water, and Beth knew more about it. Yes, absolutely. Who's boat where you are? A friend of Lee's. Or a friend of his. Yes, a friend of his who he was using the sailboat at the time. But who was operating, him? He was, but then Beth had to take over and try to, and it was not a pleasant sight. But anyway, and then they ultimately became, reconnected and became very, very close. And, you know, one of my favorite stories, if we have time to tell us, in the O.J. Simpson trial, where he talks about how he induced Chris Darden. Oh yes. Oh yes. To have a, put the glove on. And one of the things he says is, have you ever seen O.J. Simpson's hands? He said, how many times did he fumble in his NFL career? Never, his hands are like basketball. That's right. And he said, It's like your hands. Exactly. I knew that, that glove would have fit besides blood, shrinking the glove. And he just, he kept daring, Darden. He says, you don't have the guts to do that. He didn't say guts. He used the different word, that's right. The honus. He said, you don't have the, he kept sending him notes. And he, you know, this is Lee Bailey. This is a great legal mind. He's sitting there talking the other side to do something stupid. It literally was Darden's death. Tom Sawyer and the fence. And the glove doesn't fit. You gotta equip. What is amazing about that, and he tells that story the same every time, he said they would all go out drinking at night and that Marsha and Darden were quite starstruck. You got Dershowitz, you got, you know, Effie Bailey, Shapiro, starstruck. And after a few drinks, everybody seems to open up. But there's one thing that we do know, the three of us. This was a man who could hold his liquor. And you recall that Nathan Lane played him and they made reference to that. And yet never once during that series that they portray him as some idiot, some fucking idiot. No. And so he would get them all out and they'd all be drinking and laughing and joking. I said, they're Darden, but you don't have it. And when Darden made the motion, they said, no objection. Yeah. He did like Bailey's quite a bit. And I said, is that because you have a daily interest in it? Well, they named it after him. Marsha was drinking it. You know, Ken, in the course of our career that we have gone to court many, many times. And yet if you add up all the times that you've been to court, as a divorce lawyer, and you're almost every day. Myself as a trial lawyer, we wouldn't even cast a shadow upon the number of times that he has appeared in courts and in big courts. I mean, every case is important to your client. But you talk about the big name cases. You know, you'd go to it to leave Bailey. If you were O.J. Simpson, who else do you want to hire? Bring them on the team. If you're Patty Hearst, you want to hire the best. I mean, there's many great trial lawyers to the history of the United States. Many Supreme Court justices who were great trial lawyers. Thurgood Marshall was one of the great trial lawyers in our lifetime. Sat next to him, Darden, is a confirmation. It's Thurgood Marshall. Not next to him, but within a few feet. But simply not because Lee Bailey was the trial lawyer. He is the standard. And if you want to be half as good as Lee Bailey, you are great. Well, John Roberts, who's the Chief Justice, had a summer home in Maine. And he invited Lee out. I didn't know that. Yes, they were friends. I didn't know he had a summer home in Maine. Near Terrell, I believe. Correct. And he invited Lee over. And that's true. Yeah. I just think to go back to the main bar, and I'm not a lawyer. I've got family members who are. He was good as a lawyer though, Rob. Thank you, sir. Again, it's a tragedy to see what happened. But the point I'd like to make about Lee is after that defeat, the Marine fighter pilot, which is near and dear to him and who he really is, he went on with his life, picked his head up, and still tried to contribute to the community. And to help businesses here in Maine and to help his friends and write and continue on with his career. And he never said a word. Right. Which I thought was a tribute to him. By the way, Rob, I was sitting right next to you during the Supreme Court hearing and turned to you and said, they're not going to overturn Don Alexander. Oh, I know. They have no reason to number one. And number two, they have great respect. But I will tell you that Bailey had these ties to Maine. And as you mentioned, giving advice, I saw him one day sitting with Dan Lilly, who, by the way, folks, another great lawyer. People would honor him by calling him the F. Lee Bailey of Maine. But my pot of Bill Chiles would call him for advice, a big case that we have in the office right now will remain unmentioned. But and you would call him, can. Of course. And here you are, in my opinion, the best divorce lawyer in Maine. Absolutely. And you would call him. What about this? And he would have a thing to say about it. Well, the greatest honor was when he called me to ask him to handle a case for him. It's like, seriously? You know, will you tell me how to do it? Because nobody's better than you. Great honor and great lawyer. And once again, I have to say I apologize for the bar of Maine for doing what I think is the stupidest thing I've ever done. Well, you know, something is the fact that we say it, whatever. We give them both a pass. It was a five to four decision. Who knows? Somebody felt strongly that they took it all away. So be it. But Ken, we began this by talking about how you met him. But I'm going to say that I sat in my office and heard this. Ken, F. Lee Bailey on line one. And I went, what? Get out of here. I jumped out of my chair. Ray and I said, Michelle, did you just say F. Lee Bailey on line one? I thought it was you. No, you thought it was me. He goes, yeah. Anyway, I want to thank the both of you, not only for being the friends that you are, for Ken, Lauren Aline, and Rob, for you setting up those interviews with Bailey. We had no idea that he would pass within days of our interview. I know it. But I know, Rob, that you mentioned to me at Ken's party. You go, Darry, my only concern was that the camera was too close to my face on Zoom. Oh, yeah, that's right. And so I have to say to you, Bailey had this beautiful wall. Hey, yeah. But I want to say, Rob, of the three of us, you look the best. That's only because I wasn't on that interview. Yeah, that's right, Kenny. That's going to be really good. And we're going to change the whole dynamic. Folks, that's it for Lauren Aline. Lauren Aline, see the way I go. That's it for the Dairy Runlet Show. We'll see you next month. And thank you very much, guys, for coming on. Thank you. Thank you.