 Well, who are we waiting for? Why are we waiting? Hi, I think we have a little bit of quiet. Appreciate that very much. Thank you all for being here. Do appreciate that. I'm Dick Sears. I'm a state senator from Bennington County, way down the southern part of the state. Many of you may not know how to get there. I can explain that to you if you want to come down to the beautiful south. We have a few ground rules, and we would appreciate if everybody would cooperate. And they're not very difficult, but I have to put my glasses on to read them. Please silence your cell phones. I actually turned mine off. There are many more signed up to testify than we're going to have time for, so please respect the speaker's times. The timer is on the table in front of Senator Alice Nitka from Windsor County. And she will be giving you a 30 second warning to wrap up your testimony. A testimony that runs over or extensions will not be permitted. There will be two people on deck, and there's two seats over there for folks to sit at who are on deck. And if your name is called for the on deck position, make your way to the main doors of the chamber and identify yourselves to the doorkeepers. Those are the folks in green jackets. Refame from clapping, yelling, shouting, or causing disturbances during or after testimony. We hope that we don't get to any disruptions that would force us to either temporarily delay the hearing or actually remove someone. Overflow rooms would please maintain the same decorum as the chamber. And if you don't have time to testify, you're more than welcome to provide written testimony to the committee. You can either send it to me. It's actually rsearsatwedge.state.vt.us, or to our committee assistant, or to any member of the committee. Senator Benning from Caldonia County has the microphone, and will be calling the names. And Senator White from Wyndham County, which is also in the southern part of the state, will be sitting here and listening intently and calling my attention to anything I miss. And Senator Ash, who's the pro tem and also comes from Chittenden County, and is a member of this committee, will also be listening and correcting me. So with that, let's move on. And Joe, if you could call the first name. Good boy, Roger Carroll from Brattleville, Vermont. Let me just try to do this as easily as possible. Is Roger here? Roger, we're going to have you sit right here in this seat. The next person that will be up after Roger is Kelly Dury from South Burlington. Kelly, we're going to call you on the on-deck circle right here. And William Weisenegger from Rotland. Actually, Kelly, if you could take that seat. William, if you could take, you will now be in the dugout. And we'll go from that direction. As soon as the first witness is done testifying, I'll call another name. If you guys would just keep moving forward, we'll try to get you through. And the first thing we'll do is ask you to raise your right hand and swear here to be a true and faithful man to the New England Patriots. Yes, that was a joke. OK. Thank you, and we'll get started now. Thank you. OK. I have a short quote from George Orwell. The totalitarian states can do great things, but there is one thing they cannot do. They cannot give the factory worker a rifle and tell him to take it home and keep it in his bedroom. That rifle hanging on the wall, the working class flat, or laborer's cottage, is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there, and that is your job, ladies and gentlemen, of this chamber. Don't New York of Vermont gun rights. Thank you. Thank you. Kelly? Next one in the dugout is Stella Gravel from East Hardwick. Good evening. My name is Kelly Jockerty. I am executive director of Steps to End Domestic Violence. We serve victims of domestic violence in Chittenden County. I'm here to express my support for H422, a measure that will provide critical safety measures for Vermonters who are victims of domestic violence by allowing the temporary removal of firearms from the scene of a domestic violence incident. Domestic violence is more than a single incident. Domestic violence is an ongoing pattern of coercive and controlling behavior that builds and escalates over time. It is not uncommon for victims to experience years or even decades of abuse prior to the first law enforcement involvement. We know from numerous studies that there is a deadly relationship between domestic violence and firearms. Abused women are five times more likely to be killed by their abuser if their abuser owns a firearm. And in Vermont, the vast majority of domestic violence homicides and related murder suicides are committed with firearms. We also know that the most dangerous time for victims, the time that they are most likely to be murdered by their partner, is right after separation or right after the involvement of law enforcement. Furthermore, firearms don't have to be used in the commission of a crime in order to pose a threat. We frequently hear from victims about the ways that firearms are used to terrorize them and exacerbate their fear of their partner. For one victim, every time her perpetrator thought that she might leave him, he would place his guns out in visible locations throughout the house to remind her of the potential consequences of leaving. He didn't have to pick up his gun and make an explicit threat with it to create an environment of fear. The years of physical, emotional, and verbal abuse that she had endured demonstrated what he was capable of. We know that the vast majority of gun owners in Vermont are responsible and safety conscious. However, I think we can all agree that there are some individuals in very particular circumstances who should not be in possession of firearms. Certainly individuals whom law enforcement has determined that there is sufficient evidence to arrest or cite for domestic violence should be in that category. H422 is a bill designed to protect victims of domestic violence. If you are not abusing anyone in your household, this bill will not impact you. Again, we know that one of the times that a domestic violence victim is most likely to be murdered is right after the involvement of law enforcement. Vermont is not exempt from this sad fact. 18 other states currently allow law enforcement officers to remove firearms when they arrive at the scene of a domestic violence incident. Please consider supporting H422, which provides a temporary window of safety for domestic violence victims at the time that it matters most. Thank you. William Walsenegger from Rutland. Shit, Stella Gravel, you're on deck and any cutler from Westminster, you are in the dugout. Good evening, my name is William Walsenegger. I'm from Rutland, Vermont. I grew up in New Jersey, one of the most draconian gun ownership controlled states in the country. I've seen firsthand how these extreme gun control policies have failed to curb the level of violence the state routinely experiences. A sharp contrast to the way things are here in Vermont. It's rumored that over 70% of the homes in the state have at least one firearm. People here are brought up with firearm ownership as a way of life and Vermont gun owners have proven to be an extremely responsible group who don't fear these dumb inanimate objects. They certainly don't need added legislation disrupting what has obviously worked for over 200 years. New Jersey citizens didn't lose their rights to gun ownership overnight, of course. Neither did New York, California, or any of the other draconian gun ownership controlled states. Their citizens lost their rights through incrementalism, legislative tactics that were ignored by each state's citizens. Like the boiling frog metaphor, their citizens lost their rights to self-defense because their rights were legislated away, one seemingly well-meaning warm and fuzzy law at a time. And once gone, our right is hard to get back. And that is what we're facing right now in Vermont. The danger of legislative incrementalism is very real. Huge sums of money is pouring in from wealthy out-of-state sources to take away gun ownership rights, one legislative step at a time. And gun control groups headed by people who don't even live here are targeting Vermont gun ownership. Why all the interest in little old Vermont gun rights? One possibility is that Vermont is an inconvenient truth. Vermont, with her lack of gun ownership laws, along with a growing number of other constitutional carry states, are proving to be concrete proof that liberal gun ownership actually serves to lower violence and disprove the gun control narrative. The bottom line is that current Vermont gun laws work, and they have for over 200 years. That is an undisputed fact. Don't New York, or in my case, New Jersey, Vermont with added gun laws. Our citizens have made that very clear. Thank you. Thank you. Stella Gravel from East Hardwick, you're up. Amy Hertz from Woodstock, you are in the dugout. Hello, everyone. Thanks for being here. On August 13th, 2013, my outlook on life changed forever. For my daughter, Rhonda's husband, Troy, was a very controlling husband. Rhonda finally got to the point she could not take any more. She wanted a better life for her four children. The first time Troy was arrested for beating Rhonda, his guns were given to one of his family members. The second time Troy was arrested, he bailed himself out of jail and returned. At this point, my daughter said he is going to kill me. Troy was able to get his guns back from family member. Two nights before my daughter died, Troy had the gun to my daughter's head. Her daughter came home from work between the daughter and Rhonda. They were able to take the gun away from Troy. Troy was facing a hearing coming up the first week in September. Troy said, you will never see me. You will never see me in court. Two days later, in the same house, my granddaughter, excuse me, my granddaughter heard one shot. She got to the top of the stairs and heard the second shot. It was my biggest nightmare. I miss Rhonda every day and I hope by speaking here tonight, I can help stop from happening to anyone else. This is what Rhonda will want us to do. I truly, truly believe if the guns had been taken away by the police when they very first showed up that they could have sure stored them somewhere by police. Rhonda might just still be here today. Now I'm asking you, please vote for pass H-422. And it might save another mother and another daughter from going through what I have been through. Thank you. Eddie Cutler is up. Amy Hertz is on deck. Everett Freiman from Morrisville. You are in the dugout. Hi, my name's Ed Cutler. I live in Westminster and I'm the president of the gun owners of Vermont. Nobody in this room, and I mean nobody, wants to see anybody killed, hurt, or anything like that through domestic violence or any other means. How bad is it in Vermont? It's not bad at all. Although any death is a tragedy. We are extremely safe in this state. I'm passing out a bunch of polls that were done nationwide. These polls are done by VPR, NBC, and a bunch of others. Number one, the PBS news hour. With a response rate of 94.6%, people said no to any restrictions or further restrictions on gun rights. I witnessed news channel three. 89% said no to a semi-auto ban. MSNBC, an user nation-wide polls. 92% said people should be allowed to carry guns in public and 90% said they should open carry in restaurants and retail stores. The Cassiton poll, which is bogus and I will have more information on that later this evening. I have flyers for you, they're over there. You will hear how the Cassiton poll said 90% or 84% of people in Vermont wanted gun control. These real polls don't hold that out. Another example, the Caledonia record, which is doing a poll right now. As of January 16th, 89.8% of those voting said no to any of the gun bills in this committee right now. What I am asking for is a couple of things. If a person is truly dangerous, they should be locked up. No excuses because whether they have guns, whether they have clubs, or whether they have cars, they will do bad to their spouses. Figure out some way and we will work with every group in this room to see that something like that can happen. Another thing we would like to do is the definition of firearms, I know in Senator Baruch's bill, still covers muzzle loaders and kids toys like potato guns and stuff like that. We would like to see a permanent change to the federal definition of firearm for every bill that comes through. Nobody's robbing banks or doing bad things with muzzle loaders, thank you. Andy Hertz is up, Fremont is on deck, Joy Gaines from Thetford Center, you are in the dugout. Good evening, my name is Ann Hertz and I'm here because my son Jonathan was shot and killed in Northern Vermont in 1991. He was 26 at the time of his death. Jonathan grew up in New Jersey, but our family spent a lot of time in Vermont skiing in the winter and camping in the summer and my four sons really loved Vermont. Jonathan especially loved it and when he was 23 he decided to move to Vermont. He rented a little house in Johnson in the country on a dirt road and he really loved being in the country. He skied a lot in the winter and I think he fished every stream in the Moyle County in the summer and he befriended a young woman whose ex-boyfriend had a long history of mental instability and violent behavior. And on May the 8th, 1991, that ex-boyfriend hitchhiked to John's house, shot and killed him, shot and killed his dog, shot two other people and then took his own life. It's been, John has been gone for longer than he lived and we all miss him, his great smile, his laugh and just having his presence in our family. I believe that if 30 years ago any one of these three laws had been enacted and enforced that John would probably be alive today and so would many other Vermonters. Thank you. Everett Freiman is up. Peggy O'Neill is on deck and Marie Leata from Waitesfield is in the dugout. Good afternoon, Senators. Thank you very much for your time this afternoon. I would like to begin by stating about the 14th Amendment to the Constitution. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof are citizens of the United States and the state of wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law that which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of the citizens of the United States nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty or property without due process of law nor deny any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. I understand that domestic violence is a huge nationwide problem. I understand that it's terrible and I understand that violence by itself is a very terrible thing. However, denying citizens and residents of this state the very same due process that is allowed for such people are accused of very serious crimes such as murder, rape, terrorism are all given due process under that law. I would hope those that are accused of domestic violence would receive that same due process in a court not the court of public opinion, not a kangaroo court but a court presided over by a judge and a jury. Therefore, I solemnly ask that the members of this committee along with the members of our wonderful state legislature consider the fact of due process before either voting for or against age 422, thank you. Thank you. Joy Gain is up. Marie Leata from Watesfield, you are on deck. My name is Joy Gain, I live in Thetford Center. I was asked to speak because I understand too well the cost of gun violence. My beautiful niece Carol was shot and killed on her 20th birthday. She was away at her first year of college studying education. She was a trendsetter, confident, witty and lovable. The last time I saw her she was happily parading around in the Halloween costume her grandmother had just bought her. I was six months pregnant and on vacation when I got the call she'd been murdered. My son Connor is named for her. Please look at the smile, this was her in life. The story of her death is tragic just like thousands of others. One of her best friends had an abusive boyfriend so my niece along with others convinced her to break up with him. He wanted his ex-girlfriend to suffer forever so he chose to take the life of her close friend, my niece, on her birthday then he shot himself. What makes this even more tragic is that Carol's friend Nicole was visiting to celebrate her birthday and as she was running for her life he shot and killed her too. He didn't even know her. I use the word story because I imagine people hear this kind of news more and more and they wanna keep a healthy distance from such horrific realities. To me that sounds like a luxury. 10 years later two families continue to mourn, trust me there's no such thing as time heals all wounds. I cannot find words to express the grief I've watched my sister, brother and law nephews experience. I recently read an article by a London based author. He states America has had 11 school shootings in the last 23 days which is more than anywhere in the world, even Afghanistan or Iraq. Why are American kids killing each other? Why doesn't their society care enough to intervene? I will repeat that last line. Why doesn't their society care enough to intervene? We've had enough thoughts and prayers in this country. If you are truly outraged insist we have a serious discussion about this public health and public safety crisis and not hide behind the Vermont is a safe state blanket. We are all safe until we're not. Those kids at Sandy Hook didn't feel unsafe on that fateful day. Neither did those dance people dancing in the club or shopping at the mall or enjoying a movie at the theater and the list goes on. I don't know anyone who wants to repeal the Second Amendment or take lawfully obtained guns away from law abiding citizens. Those are lies perpetuated by fear mongers. Believe me, I would rather be anywhere but here right now. It is painful to stand up here and share this nightmare. But what is the alternative? Do nothing? Stay silent. I think you can agree. Of course no law will prevent all gun deaths. But what if the one life it did save was someone you loved? I am here speaking today with hopes that you will never know what it's like to be in the Survivors Club. Thank you. Marie Liada from Watesfield is up. Bess Classen Landis from Windsor is on deck and Richard Shaw is in the dugout. Thank you for this opportunity to speak today. I would like to say thank you to everybody who has attended. And I especially want to offer my condolences, my sincerest condolences to those people who have had gun violence in their lives. I am very blessed. I've never had anything like this. I have been shooting since I was in my 30s and I made sure that my daughter understood good gun rules and regulations in our home. I was a single mother. I lived in Colorado at the time. Police were not that prevalent where I lived as is the same situation today. I live in a town where there may be people but they're far away from me. If I screamed or if I yelled there would be absolutely nobody that would hear me within a mile radius at least. I have three little dogs. They are not bred to protect me. I would be pretty much on my own. It's just my husband and I. I call it the house on the hill because we have all of our land as cleared but our house is primarily made of wooden glass. It's amazing the amount of glass that's in our house. It wouldn't take much to break in and to overpower both of us in our 70s and I feel really blessed that I'm able to continue since the days that I lived in Colorado to carry a gun which is almost necessary for the job that I have outside of my own. I'm a dog warden. I have to call on people because their dogs are running loose and I've got to tell them to put their dog on a leash. You want to make somebody angry? Talk about their dogs. I'm terrified half the time. I've got to go up in compounds in areas and I'm sitting there thinking I'm one person, five foot three, forget about my weight and my age and I do not think I could beat a man down. If he knows I'm carrying he'd be more respectful. That just comes with the whole enchilada there. And I also want to say that I'm a proud gun owner of Vermont member. I have never once heard of anybody that belongs to either the NRA or gun owners of Vermont shooting and killing anybody in their family and I want to really make a point of all of these issues that everybody has with guns that it's mental health. It's drug related. It is nothing to do with just the fact that you can get your hands on a gun. We have to be respectful of the people who want to have a gun. It is our rights to have a gun because we are being pushed further and further away from our amendment rights and we need to stand fast. Thank you all. Best class in Landis is up. Richard Shaw is on deck. Peggy O'Neill you are now on. You're on. Good evening. My name is Peggy O'Neill and I'm the Executive Director of Lies of the Upper Valley. We serve victims of domestic and sexual violence in Northern Windsor County in Vermont. I want to share a story with you about a domestic violence homicide that occurred in our community. This homicide took the life of a young woman who was born and raised in Windsor County. She was a young mom of a two year old child. She worked at a local nursing home and was studying to be an LNA. She had a lifetime of promise ahead of her as a contributing member of her community. However, this lifetime was cut tragically short when she was shot and killed by her boyfriend who was lying in wait for her in the woods near her vehicle on a Monday morning. That Monday morning this young mother was killed as she was getting into her car to go to the courthouse to file for an emergency protection order. Her boyfriend subsequently killed himself. That morning a child lost his mother. Loving and devastated parents lost their daughter. But this is a story that ripples out beyond one family into an entire community in our whole state. The census loss has impacted residents at a nursing home, teachers at her high school, many, many friends, community members and businesses in the small town where this tragedy occurred. Temporary storage of firearms must be available during the most dangerous period for victims, which is immediately after separation or involvement from law enforcement. This often happens at night or over a weekend. Waiting for courthouse to be open is often much too long to wait. This small window of safety can provide just enough time in space for victims of domestic violence to make plans to keep themselves safe. 25 years ago another young woman living in a different state courageously chose to leave a committed and abusive relationship. Her partner slept with a loaded gun under the pillow, not for protection, but to induce fear and maintain control. When she left her home in this relationship, he began to stalk her and then made a clear threat to kill her. With support from her family and friends and by obtaining an emergency protection order late in the night, that included temporary removal of guns from his possession, she obtained life-saving safety. While we'll never know if removing guns from his possession kept her from being killed or severely injured, what I keep thinking about over and over these last 25 years, and especially over the past 17 years during domestic violence advocacy, is that had his guns not been removed that night 25 years ago, I very well might not be here before you to ask you to take up H422 because I was this young woman. The connection between firearms and the risk of death for domestic violence victims is well documented in statistics and public health literature. Tonight I'm here to say that the connection between firearms and DV is more than numbers on a page. It's a reality in our community and it's a tragedy for Mont families. I hope for Mont joins the other 18 states in the country that recognize this risk and that you take up H422. Thank you. Richard Shaw of Rockingham. We're gonna have you up next. We got out of order somehow. Richard Shaw, Rockingham, just told her. One more time, Richard Shaw from Rockingham. Okay, best class in Landis. No, I meant the next name on the. William Robinson from Warren. Hi, my name is William Robinson. I'm the regional coordinator for gun owners of Vermont and Washington County. I am from Warren, Vermont. Thank you for the opportunity to speak tonight. First of all, let me say how much I hate speaking in public, but I refuse to sit by and watch our legislators blatantly disregard our constitution. Every year the anti-gun crowd pushes unconstitutional and unnecessary laws, which would do nothing to prevent crimes with guns. If you truly want to make people safer, then you should ban gun-free zones. These so-called gun-free zones do nothing to protect people. They actually create a victim-rich environment. Guns in the hands of responsible ordinary citizens do more to deter violence than gun-free zones ever could. A little over a year ago, I had a tenant who stopped taking her meds for being bipolar. She ended up trashing the apartment she was renting from us, threatened to burn the house down with me and my family in it, and then proceeded to try to break through the door with a claw hammer to attack me. As I held the door shut with my foot, the hammer was busting through the door. Nothing I said to her would calm her down. I called 911 and explained to the operator what was happening. Told them I was armed and I would defend myself if needed to. When my tenant heard me say this to the operator, she immediately stepped away from the door and just started sobbing. Even in her unbalanced mental state, she realized that by my being armed, I wasn't going to allow her to harm me. And she backed off and waited for the police to show up and take her away. I believe it hadn't, if I hadn't been armed, she would have continued to escalate until she had broken through the door and physically attacked me. It took well over an hour from the time I called 911 for the police to show up. In my mind, there's no way this situation would have ended as peacefully as it did. If it wasn't for her knowing, I was armed and ready to defend myself. And an armed society is a peaceful society. Please do not New York my gun rights. Best class in land is from Windsor. Richard Shaw from Rockingham. Best before you start, let me just get two more names up. Nat Bouchard from Waterbury. You are on deck. And Scott King from Morrisville. You're in the dugout. Thank you. Hello, my name is Best class in Landis. I live in Windsor, Vermont. And I've been a resident of Vermont since 1987. I recently retired from teaching art after 18 years in Vermont public schools. Before that, I worked as an art therapist with some of our most vulnerable populations. Children who had been neglected and abused and with adults who had been hospitalized with a mental illness. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to testify, to share my experience. I am a survivor of gun violence along with my three sisters. What do you tell, what do you do when your own personal story is too awful to tell your children or your grandchildren? I'm telling my story today in hopes of making a difference in the lives of their children. My three sisters and I were at school on March 14th in 1969 when someone came into our house where our mother, Helen Klassen, 41 years old, was sowing. The intruder beat and stripped her, raped her and shot her four times. My younger sister, Susie, was 11 when she came home on the early bus to find our beautiful quiet mother dead in a large pool of blood. We lived on a quiet country road in northern Indiana. We were a close family and our relatives lived all around us. I dealt with symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder for the next 37 years. For many years, I prepared myself to see the worst by imagining a dead body on the floor any time I walked into a room, opened a door or turned on a light. Fear and constant nightmares obstructed my development because my mom's murderer was never caught. I was fearful that he knew where I was at all times and would kill me before I had a chance to grow up or have a family of my own. I had escape routes from any room of my own house that I was in. And the physical and psychic stress of being hyper-vigilant for so many years has taken a toll physically in the form of autoimmune dysfunction. What happened in my family 49 years ago could still happen in Vermont. We have some of the most lax gun laws in the country here in Vermont. There are simple steps that we can take to reduce the likelihood of gun violence happening in our lives and the lives of Vermont children. We can reduce the number of times that homicide trauma ripples out and affects hundreds of lives. To not take action to increase the safety for all Vermonters is unconscionable. Please be counted among those who are willing to take effective action to reduce gun violence in Vermont. Vote yes to Senate Bill 6-221 and House Bill 422. Thank you. Scott King is up. Matt Bouchard from Waterbury is on deck. Okay, sorry. Thank you for hearing me. First off, for victims of domestic violence, that's a terrible thing and I hope we continue to strive to keep bad people in a cage. And that's gonna go a long way because they can get you with a car, they can get you with a bat, it doesn't matter. Part of what makes Vermont such a magnificent place to live is the patchwork quilt of individuals that populate our fair state. It's a fair claim that the average 60-something fifth generation logger from Lemington has precious little in common with the 20-something Boston transplant IT professional living and working in Essex, except both have elected to hang their hats in Vermont. We have virtually every lifestyle imaginable crammed into a tiny space where living can be tough at times. When Mother Nature lashes out, you see something that doesn't happen everywhere. You see young professionals helping dairymen and women during power outages, gruff old farmers helping plow the driveway of their new yoga instructor neighbor, brand new Subaru's with $4,000 worth of kayaks on top being pulled out of a ditch by a mostly rust Chevy truck with two saws sticking out of the top. For monitors, get things done under circumstances and with materials that folks from elsewhere can only marvel at. What makes this dichotomy work is respect. We respect other's choices, other's lifestyles, things that may not seem comfortable to us. We work together and through our differences because we believe in the rights of citizens to make their life choices based inside a framework of the law. Part of this give and take means learning to live with choices you may not be able to see the logic in but willing to have the respect enough for your neighbors to grant them their way. When we talk of gun control in America, it seems more and more frequent that soundbites make up the minds more often than facts do. Believe what you will, I respect that. But for monitors enjoy several firearm related, firearm and firearm crime related facts. We are always among the lowest violent crime states in the US. We are always among the lowest gun related death states in the US. We don't fear walking to the market at night because armed bandits are waiting. We don't have rampant gun crime despite the fact that 40% of Vermont households claim firearm ownership. We are not subject to running gun battles in the streets despite being a concealed carry state. Quite the contrary in fact, Vermont is consistently one of the safest states in the US. In Vermont, hunting and shooting sports pour much needed funds into the remote local sporting goods stores and countless sporting organizations provide structure and outdoor exposure for our youth. More than a few freezers in this state are filled with meat that didn't come from a store after being trucked across state lines. It came from our forests and our streams while the hunters and fishermen experiencing these events will have experiencing events that they will be reliving around fires until the end of days. What we have in Vermont is a firearm narrative that works for our populace. Our story may not fit in Illinois, New York or Southern California, but it reads well here. Firearm crime is not a crisis in Vermont. Let's not treat it that way. For no other reason than the beliefs of the minority that our lifestyle is beneath respect. In closing, I implore you not to push state limits on constitutional rights where no problem exists. Thank you. Matt Bouchard from Waterbury is up. Archie Flower from New Haven, you are on deck. Paul Menjin Yellow from Norwich, you are in the dugout. Retired Los Angeles police captain Bob Martin said, nobody is dangerous to everyone all the time, but everyone is capable of violence. My name is Matt Bouchard, and I work for Behavioral Health and Wellness Center in Morrisville. I provide substance abuse counseling, youth and transition case management for adolescents and young adults. And I am a liaison between my agency and the Department of Children and Families, both family services and economic services divisions. I also sit on the coordinated community response team to address domestic, sexual and stalking violence in the Moyle Valley. I'm also a social work intern working with children and families 20 hours a week. And finally, I'm also a combat veteran. I've seen the damage that firearms are capable of, not on animals, but on human beings. I've seen the damage that can be done in moments of passion and in panic that cannot be undone. I've worked with abusers who wish they could change their actions, and I've worked with those who don't. I've worked with survivors of abuse who feel powerless to leave and are resigned to find ways to just survive because there's no other clear choice. The reasons why one can't leave a violent situation are far too complex to address in three minutes with you today. But I would urge you, if you haven't already, to thoroughly research that topic alone. It is incredibly difficult to leave a violent situation, even in the best of circumstances. H-422 could not be more common sense. The most dangerous time for victims of domestic violence are when it becomes known outside of the home. The moment the police arrive, that victim's odds of survival drop dramatically. H-422 gives a small window of safety. It's not a permanent removal. It's not a punishment. It's about saving the lives of countless women and children and men by giving them an opportunity to leave safely. I know the harm that firearms can do. I've used them. I own them. I love them, and I'm an avid supporter of gun rights. That doesn't change the fact that they have the capacity to change lives and communities in an instant. And this simple common sense bill has the power to reduce that risk exponentially. Please consider H-422 and recognize the unbelievable difference that can be made, giving victims five short days to get out, and a lifetime to be grateful for that opportunity. And please remember the most common sense, principle of all, if you don't abuse, you have nothing to lose with H-422. Thank you. Archie Flower of New Haven is up. Paul Mangelo, I hope I'm saying that right. You are on deck, and Robert Richard Nabnackie Nation is in the dugout. Good evening. My name is Archie Flower. I was born and raised in Middlebury, Vermont. I currently live in New Haven, Vermont. I'd like to take a moment before my remarks and thank the legislature for holding this hearing to listen to the voices of their fellow Vermonters. I'd also like to thank everyone who has shown up to add their voices to this vital discussion. I love Vermont. We're a small state, but we are a feisty state. By feisty, I don't mean we're violent. Vermonters are a peaceful people, and Vermont is a safe state. We are consistently ranked as the safest or among the safest of states. We do not have a violence problem. What I do mean by feisty is that we don't like to be bossed or controlled, and we don't like to boss or control our neighbors. We live and we let live. Let's be clear. The bills we're here to discuss are a so-called solution in search of a problem we simply do not have. Gun control isn't about controlling guns. Gun control is about controlling people. I'll repeat that because it bears repeating. Gun control is not about controlling guns. Gun control is about controlling people. These bills are plainly unconstitutional. They violate the Vermont Constitution. They violate the Constitution of the United States. They violate the right to keep and bear arms and the right of due process. But even more importantly, this is a matter which goes beyond legislation, beyond law, beyond constitutions. We're talking about a moral issue when we speak about controlling the lives of otherwise innocent and peaceful people. We're talking about a moral issue when we talk about violating their inalienable rights, which precede every law, every edict, every Constitution. If you're a legislator listening tonight, please understand you must do your sworn duty and give each of these bills a swift and irrevocable ending. They never had, they do not now and they never will have a rightful place in the legislative bodies of a free people. I ask you, open your eyes, open your ears, open your mind when I say, do not New York our Vermont gun rights. Thank you. Paul Manginello from Norwich is up. Robert Richard is on deck. Rabbi Amy Joyce Small from South Burlington, you are in the dugout. Good evening. My name is, thank you for doing the public testimony here. My name is Paul Manginello, I'm a physician, I'm the medical director for the Good Neighbor Health Clinic in White River Junction and the board president of the non-profit gun safety advocacy group called Gunsense Vermont. I'm testifying tonight in support of the three legislative initiatives before you. I and my family moved to the Upper Valley in 1979 to work at Dartmouth-Hitchcock Medical Center. Not long after we moved, we received a word that my nephew had been fatally shot during a domestic violence incident. My son was in Dresden Middle School, one of his classmates had intentionally taken her life with her father's unsecured handgun. State national statistics around gun deaths and injuries give an incomplete picture of their true tragic consequences. Countless family members, friends, and community suffer as a result of these events. Let's be clear about why I am here tonight. There's nothing to do with taking away an individual's second amendment rights. But it is related to the fact that the NRA is guiding this discussion. We are here to encourage our legislators to pass legislation which protect Vermont citizens. Gun violence is multifaceted. There's no single piece of legislation which will be a silver bullet. When the legislation eliminate gun-related tragedies, sensible public health initiatives can help reduce but not eliminate risk. Legislation related to hiring safety is a perfect example. Even though we have laws to require using seat belts to those who don't use them. But no one can deny that such legislation has improved public safety. In Vermont, we have legislation which regulates hunting and we for a gun safety course, a license. It sets the limit of the size of the magazine. The parents of Newtown never believe the last shooting would ever have happened in their elementary school. The patients at Southern Experience, Texas, went to church never suspecting that they would be victims of gun violence. How many fire-related suicides, homicides, intimidations, accidental deaths, and injuries will Vermonters need to experience before our legislators will be moved to enact gun safety legislation. Ground checks will reduce the chance that fire arms will be diverted from honest commerce into the hands of criminals. But there are new polls which needs to be closed. The killer responsible for Southern Springs massacre was never reported to the background check system. No one has to ask why only licensed gun dealers should be required to screen for unqualified individuals? It's been estimated that 20 to 40% of firearm sales do not undergo criminal background checks since the mixed system has been implemented. Literally millions of unqualified individuals have been not purchasing a firearm. Surveys of state prisons, inmates convicted of gun-related crimes reported more than 75% of those inmates obtained their weapons through unlicensed dealers. Private sales, internet, gun shows, what they were stolen. It has also been shown that states requiring criminal background checks results in lower suicide of the trafficked capita. Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you. Robert Richard, you're up. Rabbi Amy Joyce Small is on deck. Bert Salde from Barry, you are in the dugout. Thank you. My people's rights have been stripped since day one of Vermont state government. My ancestors lost their land, lives to state sanctioned genocide, land grabs, and now their gun rights are under attack. History says it has repeats itself, eventually. More and ever, I don't wanna lose any of my gun rights from what's happened to my ancestors. I look at this crowd around and people can only be pushed so much before they start pushing back one way or another by losing their rights. And one other question is, I just wondered how many people got off the black Bloomberg bus out there or actually Vermonters that are in here today? I'll keep buying this. Ah, please don't New York our gun rights. Rabbi Amy Joyce Small, you are up. Bert Salde is on deck. Amy Torsche from East Montpelier is in the dugout. Good evening. I'm Rabbi Amy Small from Mojave Zedek Synagogue in Burlington. There have been 200 school shootings in our country since the murder of those pure innocent souls in Sandy Hook in 2012. That's about one a week. It was noteworthy that the shooting in Kentucky last week earned very little space in our news cycle. Our nation has become almost numb to this evil phenomenon. But we must not be numb. We are determined to see our legislature enact common sense gun safety laws. Clearly, guns kill in a variety of ways. Domestic violence, most often afflicting women in shootings of law enforcement officers in senseless small scale murders and in suicides. These instances of gun violence are an absolute epidemic. It is estimated that 22% of gun transfers take place without a background check. Yet some states have begun to lead the effort to close this loophole. The results of state legislated background check laws are stunning. In the 19 states which have enacted universal background check laws for handguns, there have been dramatic decreases in the incidents of killings by guns. 47% fewer women have been shot to death by their partners, 53% fewer law enforcement officers have been killed, and there have been 47% fewer suicides by guns. We have a responsibility to keep guns out of the hands of would be criminals. I have heard the argument that the current ease of transfer of guns in Vermont to friends and acquaintances is important. I have heard the argument that individuals who acquire guns are the ones who must take responsibility. We can't be responsible for them. I have heard the argument that the cost and inconvenience of applying for a background check is an infringement on personal agency. If I'm a law abiding and honest citizen, why should I be required to take this step? And yet I am not moved by these arguments because they are based on an individualism that rubs against my moral commitment to care for my fellow human being. The Hebrew Bible commands, you shall not insult the death or place a stumbling block before the blind. Do not profit by the blood of your fellow and love your neighbor as yourself. My tradition teaches that we are all responsible for each other. How can any of us, even if we value our individualism above all else, be truly safe in a world that has senseless gun violence such as ours does? We are all responsible for each other. And finally, Oh, thank you, finally. Burt Salde is up. Amy Torsche is on deck. Mark Wells from Bethel is in the dugout. Good evening. Thank you for letting me speak. I am Burt Salde, born in very Vermont. And I am 63 years old. And I've hunted, I've had a prior I'm since I was 11 years old and hunted for 52 years. We have almost the same gun laws back then as we do now, except for the federal background check. Only law abiding citizens by firearm laws. I and we do not need any more firearm laws in our state of Vermont. And I do not New York and Chicago my gun rights. No more gun laws. Thank you. Amy Torsche is up. Mark Wells is on deck. Amy, before you begin, let's make sure we have Mark Wells here, please. Mark Wells from Bethel, Vermont. Okay. Mark Wells from Bethel, Vermont. We'll be on Mark Wells right up here, please. You're on deck. And Mariah McNamara from South Burlington, you're in the dugout. Thank you. My name is Amy Torsche. And I'm here to speak in favor of allowing law enforcement officers to remove firearms from the scene of a domestic violence incident when necessary for their own safety and for the safety of the family living in the home. For nearly 30 years working as a children's advocate now with the Vermont network, I've been listening to the stories of children and youth who have lived with domestic violence. It's been profound for me to witness the stories of terror experienced by children who fear for their own lives and for those of their parents and caregivers, their siblings and their pets. Tonight I'm here to give voice to the thousands of children and youth living in Vermont every day and to remind us all that the presence of firearms in these volatile homes where there is domestic violence increases trauma for these young Vermonters. Their stories, I know of a five-year-old boy who led police officers to a gun hidden between the mattresses of their hotel room bed. He asked that they take the gun because he had to keep his family safe. Safety to this little boy meant not having guns available to his father. Another five-year-old boy who had a gun held against his head by his dad when his mom tried to leave. His younger siblings were also terrified. He regressed after several similar episodes. He wet the bed. He was often panicked, especially when he had to leave his mother's side. I know a story of a man who remembers the violence starting when he was in third grade and this is what he says. What would become his most common approach to instilling his fear was to clear the dining room table, unload all of his guns and slowly and methodically clean them in front of all of us. Sometimes he'd choose to destroy whatever belongings we had left on the table to make room for this gun cleaning practice. As he'd clean, he'd curse loudly about my mother, about how terrible we were and about how he could end it all and we absolutely believed him. Living with domestic violence is traumatic. Children's fears are real. When children live in extreme fear and terror, their brains become alert for danger. They live in a hyperaroused state that is stressful, scary and intense. Toxic stress and trauma impacts children's immediate and long-term health and development. It can lead to chronic illness, drug addiction, criminality, incarceration and repetition of the trauma on the next generation. When we remove guns from a house where there is a violent, abusive person, we clearly reduce the risk of fatalities and we also reduce the amount of toxic fear and trauma for children. Reducing traumatic experiences for our children now has profound positive impacts on their lives and in turn on the health of future adults in our state. Some traumas are preventable and this is one of them. Thank you. Mark Wells is up. Mariah McNamara is on deck and Eddie Garcia, you're in the dugout. My name is Mark Wells and I'm from the Bethel, Royalton area. I was standing out in the hall waiting to sign up and I looked up, saw a quote from Calvin Coolidge and it started with the words, if the spirit of liberty shall vanish. And those words hit me and I started thinking about the people leaving the state of Vermont every day. You often hear a governor quote, six people a day are leaving the state of Vermont. Why are they leaving? If you read their social media, the people who have already left the state, the people who are leaving and the people who wanna leave, there's always a common thread. And that common thread is just what the man said, the spirit of liberty is vanishing. I know I'm preaching in a choir here but the issues of late in the last years have been taxes, affordability, education. And it's nice to hear in the last year or so that there's a discussion. A second reason the liberties are going by the wayside is there's two Vermonts. One Vermont is the big rural country Vermont full of agriculture, farms, good country people in small towns. The other Vermont is Chittenden County and Burlington. You can find very small pockets in the southern end of the state, bedroom communities of people who group together, move from Massachusetts, New York State, Connecticut, New Jersey, places like that. Those people want the laws to be exactly like they were where they came from. I moved here from Florida seven years ago and in those seven years there's only been two or three weeks where I didn't keep up with what the legislature was doing while in session. A motivational speaker in the 80s will ask the question, if you had to pick a CEO for a company which would now be like Apple or Google, how would you do it? And everybody thought he'd say somebody would master it, doctor it, this, that and the other thing. He said, easy, I'd pick a Vermont farmer. The reason he said that was something called the Vermont Way. I moved here because of the Vermont Way. The Vermont Way is integrity, honor, common sense. It's going by the wayside and it's a really sad thing to see. I'm asking finally that you honor the Vermont Way and the people of Vermont by not allowing out of state power, out of state money and out of state control to take over this issue. Thank you. Mariah McNamara is up. Eddie Garcia is on deck. Peter Harris from Montpelier, you are in the dugout. Good evening. My name is Dr. Mariah McNamara and I'm an emergency physician at the UVM Medical Center and I am indeed a Vermonter. As a physician in our state's busiest emergency department and only level one trauma center, I've seen firsthand the devastating consequences of domestic violence. The health impact of domestic violence goes beyond the traumatic physical injuries with bruises, wounds, fractures, strangulation and deaths indeed. The psychological impacts are also severe and often longer lasting with the stress, fear, loss of control and loss of security complicating and compounding the difficulties survivors face in accessing medical care and support services. Well, many people remark that Vermont is one of the safest states in the nation. I know that for domestic violence victims, this is not the case. When there is violence in our homes and our most intimate relationships, it may not be obvious or visible, but from what I am seeing, it spills over affecting victims' work and the family's children. As a parent, my heart breaks hearing patients fear for what their children might have heard or seen or wondering how to talk with them about what is happening in their home. The most extreme form of domestic violence, intimate partner homicide is also a significant public health threat here in Vermont. While it is critical that we work to prevent domestic violence before it begins, we must acknowledge the difficult truth that domestic violence occurs here now and it does lead to homicide. Statistics from the US Department of Justice show that domestic violence homicides committed by a current or former dating partner have risen over three consecutive decades nationally. Here in Vermont, over half of the homicides over the past 20 years have been domestic violence related. The public health research on intimate partner homicide is extensive and convincing. We know that the most significant risk factor for domestic violence related homicide is previous violence between two partners. Domestic violence is not simply one event, but an escalating pattern of behavior and conduct that occurs over time. Research also indicates that the use of firearms in domestic violence is a leading risk factor for death of victims. When victims are previously threatened with a firearm by their partner, they're up to 20 times more likely to be killed. Half of those murdered didn't recognize the high level of risk. The patients I have met truly feared for their lives will threaten strangled or otherwise assaulted. We have no way to know which of the people who leave our ED will be murdered. But meanwhile, we must support our family, friends and neighbors now who are impacted by violence. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Eddie Garcia is up. Peter Harris is on deck. Rodney Chayer from Duxbury, Vermont. You are in the dugout. Hi there. I get the oddest feeling I've done this before. My name is still Eddie Garcia. I'm still from St. John's Marie. I'd love to be able to tell you I'm happy and excited to be testifying before this community today, but if I said that, I'd probably get struck by lightning. The truth is that I'm not happy that I have to be here again. Three years later and do essentially the same thing over again. It's my girlfriend's birthday. We do all kinds of stuff, but instead I have to be here again to say no to this again. I guess some folks didn't learn last time. No means no. Look around at all that orange. Everywhere you see that, that's a person who does not consent to you and who probably feels violated by yet another attack on their rights. Me too. Everywhere we see that, it's another person who values well over 200 years of firearm-owning tradition in Vermont. Everywhere you see that, you see someone who believes that Article 16 of Vermont's constitution means what it says, that the people have a right to bear arms for the defense of themselves and the state. For one, we'll brook no insult to that. Vermont is consistently one of the two states in America. There's no justification for changes to Vermont's gun laws, which do work and have long worked well for Vermont. Now how many times do we have to say no to this sort of thing? Three years ago, close to a thousand people showed up here at the State House to say no to legislative attacks on the right to keep and bear arms in Vermont. No in 2015, no means no today. As in, there is no problem in Vermont to fix. Vermont is not New York. We reject the proposition that Vermont's gun laws should be like New York's or like Connecticut's or like Massachusetts. In no sense do we accept these or common sense measures. And I want to say emphatically that in no sense do we believe them when they say that this is all they want. When gun control proponents get the first thing that they want, they become emboldened and invariably come back for more. When Washington State passed a gun control law by popular vote referred to by its ballot initiative number, I-594. Thank goodness we don't pass the laws that way here. At that point, the gun controllers were flush with victory and they promised to ride that victory to enact or try to enact the rest of their wish list and they were as good as their word as a whole raft of gun control legislation on the floor of that legislature now in the wake of that. So what was I-594? The gun registration scheme cynically and dishonestly marketed as universal background checks. So when they say this is all we want, I laugh. Because the second they get those few small things as they call them, they'll be back with their hands out for more reasonable restrictions and common sense laws. You know what? No sale. No means no. For any people who might be here today from out of state who decided today is a day to come and try and make them all like where they came from, let me give you a little piece of history. It was something said by the man whose statue stands by the door of the state house, General Ethan Allen, the gods of the valley are not the gods of the hills and you shall understand it. No means no. Thank you. Peter Harris is up. Ronny Chair from Decksbury. You are on deck. Elizabeth Deutsch from Hinesburg. You are in the dugout. Peter Harris, Montpelier, Vermont. I support bills H422, S211 and S6 in order to restore balance between gun rights and gun obligations. I live free of fear in a civil and virtually crime free community. I choose not to squander my resources on lethal weaponry. I confidently entrust my safety to an effective police force and not to an unrestricted self-deputized citizenry. In the same sense, I feel no need to carry about a fire extinguisher. If I see smoke, I die on 911. At heart, the issue isn't truly about guns but rather concerns the waning skirmishes of a generation long culture war that came in with the bloomers and will soon end with our imminent passing. And along with it, the lingering illusions about masculinity and a mythical frontier white Christian America. We'd appreciate if you disagree with somebody, that's fine. You don't need to express it. Though probably I will be a death's door, I look forward 10 years hence when this house is composed of 50% women members who will spearhead an era of popular common sense and nurturing legislation that will address our war social fabric and make Vermont the safest, most prosperous and most desirable location in the union. Thank you. Rodney Chair is up. Elizabeth Deutch is on deck. Eric Bailey from Essex Junction, you are in the dugout. Get my goggles on, I'm getting old like you Richard. No, the feeling, oh yeah. Some people know who I am at this table. After 18 years of coming here, I am compelled to testify yet again. These are bills of no way going to stop domestic violence and are only a way to a few people's twisted ideas they want to become laws. My experience going through an incline family court here in Vermont, I was unable to testify. Falsia accused of domestic violence and lost everything. The family court never asked me how I was going to survive, thus allowing my two sons and myself to sleep on a concrete floor, one example where I was treated. I can understand why some fathers become reactive instead of proactive after suffering through a slant family court system here in Vermont. Just to let the committee know, a young father who was a friend of my son just committed suicide because of a biased family court just may not let him see his child. Seems to me attacking guns with these misguided souls say their only means to commit domestic violence is wrong. These bills should also include meat cleavers, baseball bats, lye, another long list of means to cause harm. Yet these are not included. My question is why are not these included in this bill? If fathers are treated equally here in Vermont family, in Vermont family court system and not just a doormat or a money bag to steal from, would help decrease domestic violence in here in Vermont. A gun is a tool just like a meat cleaver or baseball bat or lye. The facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. This is just another attack on a Vermont heritage and needs to stop. I respectfully ask this committee to not to pass these bills to be voted on. Elizabeth Deutsch is up. Eric Bailey is on deck. Halitha Landis Maranello from Middlesex. You are in the dugout. Good evening. My name is Elizabeth Deutsch from Heinsberg, Vermont and thank you for the opportunity to speak on this important topic. I'm here today as a gun owner. I'm also a mother and the stepmother to four children, the wife of a teacher and a nurse. I believe in the need for strict gun legislation. In the first three weeks of this year we have already had 11 school shootings. As of 2014 we had a mass shooting in this country every 64 days. In the first 29 days of 2018 we have already had 17 mass shootings. We are well past the time for action on this issue. If our national elected officials will not take action then it is up to the states to do so. I think how we treat guns versus another weapon, the automobile, is an apt comparison. In order to legally drive a car I had to prove that I met minimum standards of proficiency. I had to pass a test and show an expert that I was able to drive safely. My car has to be inspected and insured. I have to follow laws and there are limits to what is acceptable use. All of this is done in the interest of public health and safety and we as a population accept this as a part of everyday life. When I bought my gun I had to do none of these things. No one required me to show that I could safely handle the gun, that I knew how to load or fire it. No one talked to me about the risks of having a gun in my home and that I was increasing the likelihood of homicide, suicide or gun accidents. Children living in a house with a gun are 11 times more likely to be killed by a gun accident in the US than in other developed countries. 71% of women in abusive relationships have been threatened with a gun. The state of Maryland, their state police have begun to ask questions about access to guns because it is considered such a high risk factor for homicide and abusive relationships. The rules surrounding my purchase and operation of a motor vehicle obviously far outstripped the regulations surrounding buying a gun. This is simply irresponsible. Eric Belly is up. Talitha Landis-Marinello is on deck. Devin Craig from Plainfield, you are in the dugout. Good evening, Eric Belly of Essex Junction. I live about half a mile from the house my grandfather grew up in. What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some politicians you just can't reach. I don't like it any more than you folks. In 1990, Peter Smith was favored heavily to beat Bernie Sanders for the Open US House seat. Then he spoke out against gun freedom. He paid it for it with his career. He's gone. We are still here. In 1994, Senator Althea Kroger championed a bill against gun freedoms. At the next election, she was gone. We're still here. 2014, Representative Linda Wake Simpson championed anti-gun legislation. Later that year, she was gone. Yep, we're still here. 2015, Senator John Campbell championed anti-gun legislation. He's gone. We're still here. In 2016, Sue Minter ran against a Republican in the most liberal state in the nation, which in the same day voted Democrat two to one for president. But she made gun control her top priority. She was soundly defeated. She is gone. We are still here. The time is not right for gun control in Vermont. It will never be right. Bloomberg needs to keep his nose and his money out of the state of Vermont. Yep, yeah. Thank you for the opportunity to speak. Please vote against these bills. Vermont has proven that she does best when left as she is. Thank you. Talitha Landis Maranello is up. Devin Craig from Plainfield is on deck. Connie Baxter from Dumberston. You are in the dugout. Hi, my name is Talitha. I live in Middlesex, Vermont. I grew up in Vermont. Exactly two weeks ago on a Tuesday afternoon, my husband told me there were 10 police cars at Montpelier High School. At that point, nothing else was known. It brought up a surge of very complicated emotions for me. It was scary how easily and quickly I was able to imagine a school shooting involving teachers and students that I know. Fortunately, that's not what happened. However, we're kidding ourselves if we think that our town, our state is immune to this possibility. I grew up blessed in a warm, nourishing home. As a child, I was allowed to be naive of the dangers of the world. Eventually, I learned that people are capable of terrible actions. I learned why my brother and I could never jump out to scare or surprise my mom when we were growing up. I learned that we could listen to the Beatles but not to the Maxwell Silver Hammer song. I learned why my mom had to rest often. She was really upstairs crying alone. I learned that my grandmother was brutally murdered when my mom was still a kid. There's never a good age to tell your child this history. Even as an adult, the learning, processing and healing continues, but slow going. The healing from gun violence takes generations. The healing from gun violence takes generations. I now am grappling with how I will talk to my children about this because once that bubble is burst, there's no going back. My mom is the strongest wisest person I know. She's taught me about forgiveness and standing up for what you believe. They're both terrifying paths to take. But I'm plotting on one foot after another following the best I can in her big footsteps. Forgiveness is life changing, but it takes years, decades, generations. Prevention is life saving. It takes one vote. Thank you for listening. Devin Craig is up. Connie Baxter is on deck. Michael Braun from Berlin, Vermont. You are in the dugout. Good evening. My name is Devin Craig. I live in Plinging Field, Vermont. Currently the secretary of the Berry Fish and Game Club. I'm here to represent approximately 700 members every year. We're probably the largest such organization in Vermont. But simply stated, Vermont does not need any more gun laws. Why do I say that? It's because year after year after year, more anti-gun laws are proposed, but due to the common sense of the Vermont legislative bodies, they are shot down. And year after year after year, Vermont continues to be one of the safest, if not the safest state in the nation. Our current laws seem to be doing a fine job. I have no doubt that a few of the anti-gun crowd are sincere in their efforts to reduce crime. Any rational person in this building this evening wants to do the same. But the majority of the anti's are simply fear-mongering emotional individuals with no basis in facts. Here in Vermont, the vast majority of crime statistics are on the side of gun owners. The ultimate agenda of the anti-gun crowd is to get their foot in the door to eventually try to eliminate all guns. Time will prove me right. We can argue over statistics until we are blue in the face, but the simple fact is that more laws, more regulations do not deter crime. It's a proven fact. If more laws would help reduce crime, crime would be eliminated. I give you examples such as New York, Massachusetts, Chicago, and that bastion of misdirected laws washing in D.C. We're lucky here in Vermont that we don't have the societal problems of those states or the big cities. The proposed legislations will not improve our crime condition in any way. In fact, it may increase crime by making your normally law-abiding neighbors criminals due to incorrect misguided laws. Legislation will not deter criminal activity, but it will probably help the criminals in the long run. You simply cannot legislate morality. And due to human nature, you will never ever stop a violent behavior of which thankfully there are few episodes in Vermont. Legislative efforts in Vermont should be made to improve our society, to provide good jobs, good schools, good health, lower taxes, et cetera, not to fix a non-existent problem. So legislators, thank you for hearing my words. I just hope you're listening. No more gun laws in Vermont. County Baxter is up. Michael Braun is on deck. Sandra Batchelder from Barrie. You are in the dugout. I work as a grief counselor in Wyndham County. Among the people I meet with are those whose loved ones have died by gun violence. These include deaths by suicide where a gun was the means of suicide and deaths of individuals who have been murdered by perpetrators who use guns to commit the murders. These are real people whose lives have been shattered by the violent death of their loved one. As I sit with these folks, they describe the devastation that follows the death. They are angry and heartbroken. They feel helpless and hopeless. Often they can't sleep. Any enjoyment of life they once felt is gone. And sometimes they are unable to work. They cannot understand why the tragedy has happened. They struggle to find ways to explain to children in the family that a loved one has been either shot and killed or has taken their own life. And they hope to somehow minimize the trauma to these children. The devastating effects of these deaths to families and to communities have countless layers and they go on and on. Many people never recover from the loss. Opponents say these bills are unnecessary because Vermont has such a low crime rate. Yet there have been many murders by individuals using guns in Wyndham County and throughout the state in recent years. With regard to suicides, the latest statistics show that Vermont has a higher rate of suicide than a majority of other states. And that 52% of Vermont's suicide deaths are a result of gunshot wounds. What is the worth of a life? If the enactment of these three proposed laws could save just one life, just one life, by keeping a gun out of the hands of someone who should not possess it, wouldn't that life be worth the inconvenience to gun owners? I know how loved ones of those who have died by gun violence would respond to this question. The answer would be a resounding yes. Michael Braun from Berlin is up, Sandra Batchelder, you are on deck. Ed Wilson from Morrisville, you're in the dugout. I would like to thank everybody for giving me the opportunity to come up here and speak. I think that's really nice of the state. I don't wanna see any more gun laws. A firearm is an inanimate object. It's like this cup, if it was filled with water right there, is it gonna spill on me? No, it's not, like a firearm. It's the person that's wielding it. We need to deal with the mental health issues. I'm not gonna be a criminal and cause problems, but I don't wanna be thought of as a criminal because I own firearms, thank you. Sandra Batchelder is up, Ed Wilson is on deck. George Drew from Barrie, you are in the dugout. Good evening, members of the legislature. Thank you for the chance to speak to you tonight. I'm Sandra Batchelder. I live in Barrie Town and taught 23 years at the Barrie City Middle School. I'm here to speak to you about the threat of gun violence in our schools and in support of S6 and S221 and H4222, which could possibly keep guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them. In 2005, when I retired, Barrie City Schools practice school shooter lockdown drills. All classrooms did this four times a year, four-year-old preschoolers through 12th graders. I did this with my seventh grade class. I locked the door, we sat on the floor and we were quiet. Barrie City Police supervised these drills, sometimes banging on our doors to make it real. It felt real and it was frightening. 13 years ago, I sat on the floor with students ashamed of the way we were protecting children and I knew we adults would do what it takes to keep schools safe from gun violence. What kind of society doesn't take the necessary steps to protect its children? But we haven't made schools safer. This month alone, the New York Times reported 11 school shootings between January 1st and January 23rd. Administrators in Barrie City Schools, alarmed by this uptick in school shootings, are practicing a response program, alert, lockdown, inform, counter, evacuate that could include teachers and students attempting to disarm a student by, shooter, excuse me, by swarming. That is to take down a shooter by rushing at him or her from all directions. In other words, possibly sacrificing a few children, quote, to minimize the number of people we have to tell, their children are not coming home. And that is a quote from one of the trainers in this Barrie City training and this was in the Times Argus on Friday. How have we gotten so hardened to the tragedy of school shootings? Why would we allow students and parents, teachers and principals to feel so vulnerable and not take sensible steps to prevent gun violence in our Vermont schools? Can we summon our courage and stand up to the NRA and extremists and pass legislation to keep guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them, or are we ready to accept the responsibility of being complicit in school shootings by failing to act? Thank you. Ed Wilson is up. George Drew is on deck. Bob Reedy from Warren, Vermont. You are in the dug. I'm Ed Wilson from Morrisville. I'm opposed to the proposed bills for numerous reasons. S6 is totally unenforceable and statistics regarding how they've affected other places are totally unreliable. It's not possible to know how many guns were not or were traded among citizens. There is also no way to enforce universal background checks without registration, and that will never happen. H422 violates due process regarding seizure of property and property rights, and just as important, if domestic violence professionals already know when victims of domestic violence are at greatest risk, merely removing a gun is not nearly enough, and I would support legislative efforts to address that. S221 also regarding extreme risk protection orders again, if a person is so dangerous to others that they cannot be allowed to have a firearm, they should not be allowed to move freely in society, and I support the legislature in an effort to address this. Vermont is different, and regarding we are safer and we are freer, regarding New Yorking our gun rights. In the song of the Vermonters by John Greenleaf Whittier written in 1779, we are reminded how our ancestors felt about all of our rights in the last verse. Come York or come Hampshire, come traders or naves. If ye rule or our land, ye shall rule or our graves. Our voices recorded, our banner unfurled, in the name of Vermont, we defy all the world. Tonight we've heard stories of horrendous tragedies involving firearms, there's no denying them, but it seems to be forgotten how many lives guns have saved. Last week was Holocaust Remembrance Day, and AHC had numerous programs about the Holocaust. Please remember what happens to an unarmed populace, thank you. George Drew is up, Bob Reedy is on deck, Ginger Knight from East Montpelier, you're in the dugout. Out of respect for everybody, I pass. Thank you George, Bob Reedy, you're up, Ginger Knight is on deck, Chris Bradley from Northfield, you are in the dugout. My name is Bob Reedy from Warren, thank you for having me here and letting me speak today. I am also a refugee from the People's Republic of New Jersey. I became a Vermont resident in 2003. I moved to Vermont because of her landscape, her people, her culture, her history and her traditions. I did not move to Vermont to change Vermont. Part of that tradition is gun rights and gun ownership, and it was a big reason as to why and how we chose to move here. It's real simple, my rights are my rights, and my rights don't end where your fears and concerns begin. As harsh as that sounds, it's the truth. And you have a legal, people here in this house, you have a legal and a constitutional obligation to see that that doesn't happen. I've been involved in conversations in regards to this, I couldn't tell you how many, and both sides of the aisle are clearly divided. So it does boil down to a legal, constitutional aspect versus an emotional aspect. And I get the emotional attachment, gun violence is a horrible thing. It is. But we have to abide by rules and regulations. We have to. I've been asked over and over, why are you gun owners and gun right advocates? Such hardliners. I said, well, you know, years ago, we compromised, and we did. Only to come back the following year, and being asked to compromise on a smaller piece at a pie. And that's what happens. So as we move forward, I've heard it today in testimony. My heart goes out. But again, removed that emotional attachment. It's a legal and a constitutional precedent. I heard that if one life, if these bills pass, or similar legislation passes, and it saves one life, is it worth it? Benjamin Franklin, those who would sacrifice essential liberty in order to obtain a small measure of security, deserve neither liberty nor security. Sounds harsh. It really does. But it's the way it is. Is there a magic bullet, pardon the pun, to fix this? I don't know. But I know that my rights are my rights, and my rights do not end where your fears and concerns begin. That's the law. If this starts moving forward and passes, it's a legal precedent and a slippery slope. You don't wanna go there. Thank you for your time. Thank you. Ginger Knight is up. Chris Bradley from Northfield. Chris Bradley from Northfield. You are on deck, and Barbara Legrand Bragg from East Montpelier is in the dugout. Good evening. My name is Ginger. I am 16 years old and a student at U32. I am standing here to represent myself and my peers who are currently in fear and despair. Just two weeks ago, Nathan Giffin was shot and killed on the school grounds of Montpelier High School. Many of my friends were locked inside of the school for their safety. I can't imagine what they went through. Every day I arrive at school, part of me worries for my safety and others. I think to myself, I could be the girl that some school shooter kills. The Kentucky school shooting was the 11th in the nation since the beginning of this year. I hope to never have to experience the terror of hiding from any gunman or be the victim of some sorry bullet. But it could be me because there will be more school shootings if we don't do something, if you don't do something about it. I encourage you to take my speech into account when discussing the three gun bills you'll be considering this legislative session. Thank you. Thank you. Chris Bradley is up. Barbara LeGrand Bragg from East Montpelier. You're on deck. You can hang on just a second. Let's see if we can get. Barbara LeGrand Bragg from East Montpelier. Barbara, right here please. And Daniel Monger from New Haven, Vermont. You are in the dugout. Very good. A couple of years ago now, a Castleton poll asked the question about whether citizens supported or opposed universal background checks or UBC. Anti-gun folks tend to hang their hats on the responses to that question. And as a result, this poll is espoused as one of the main factors behind bills like S6 and H151. There are however major problems with that question and the fact that the question was never properly qualified. The first problem was that this same poll also asked the responders to pick one issue that they would like to see the legislature address. 1% of the respondents indicated that guns should be addressed as the top priority, while over 85% listed other issues higher. While 1% is measurable, I suggested to folks that rated guns as their top issue or not in touch with a myriad of real issues facing this state and where they choose not to be aware that Vermont is consistently one of the safest states in the nation in regards to violent crime per capita and also has the second lowest number of murders by firearm of the 50 states. The second problem is that law enforcement agencies do not know what firearms I own. They don't know what firearms anyone owns. Given that insurmountable fact, it becomes clear that enforcement will be next to impossible when it comes to trying to regulate a sale made over a kitchen table between lifelong friends. The third problem is that we have minimal, if any impact on keeping guns away from bad people, even its author labeled it as imperfect. This is because bad people have any number of away guns, not to mention the fact that it is illegal for them to possess them in the first place. Bad people are able to get guns by trading drugs for them, obtaining them through straw purchases, stealing them, buying, trading them with their criminal pals, smuggling them, and yes, even making them. The fourth problem has to do with the people will actually obey. Logically, the only people will obey the law will be those law abiding citizens. And I point out that it is these same citizens for which we should have no concern about whatsoever because they are law abiding. The fifth problem is that in order to conform to UBC, both buyer and seller will have to travel some unknown distance to an FFL who then might handle such a transfer. And against that, we know that 85% of FFLs won't handle UBC transfers because of increased liability. If the FFL does perform the background check, a fee will be involved. And in New Jersey, these fees are costing about $100. So with UBC, a $75 bolt-action 22 rifle suddenly becomes worth $175, and that is without considering the possibility of sales tax. The sixth problem with S6 and H151 is that they're both a far cry from what the authors of these bills really wanted to be enacted. And so it becomes obvious that there's a desperation to pass something, anything, so that it can be later amended into a truly ungodly bill. I commend the majority of the Senate Judiciary Committee for ignoring partisan politics by leaving bills such as S6 on the wall where they should be left. Thank you very much. Barbara LeGrand, Bragg, you are up. Daniel Monger from New Haven, you are on deck. Alyssa Pine from Brattleboro is in the dugout. Thank you for this opportunity and thank you for being here tonight to listen to everyone. I am a survivor of gun violence. I moved to Arlington, Vermont in 1966. I took the NRA class at the conservation camp and I loved learning the rules of shooting. I learned also the doe law to shoot doe was important because through a five mile radius I counted 105 deer and they were starving before my eyes as a young girl. I'm not against people and guns. I am against criminals being able to get their hands on guns. And I think that you folks that are here thinking I hate guns and I don't want you to have guns is not true. I think that laws should be abided by and you could help survivors and people who are vulnerable to being shot by abusive partners by supporting the bill because you would be helping out people who aren't able to stop somebody pointing guns at them. I had guns pointed at me, I had my animals shot at and I had my parents lives threatened. Please support that bill. Daniel Munger is up. Melissa Pine is on deck. Daryl Montague from Westford, Vermont. You are in the dugout. Thank you. My name is Dan Munger and I'm a flat lander. Welcome, Dan. It's how I feel it's like an AA meeting. I don't think I've been lectured to more tonight than I have in years. I believe in responsibility. And there's nobody to love the police as much as I do, but when seconds matter, the police are minutes away. I'm from San Francisco. My wife and I moved out here almost 20 years ago and we saw the twin towers come down as residents of New Haven, Vermont. Proud residents. California, I was at an all-boy Catholic high school, had a broken beer bottle, gun, knife pulled on me at various times in those four years. Again, a Catholic high school. Bill Clinton said the police are the only ones who should have guns. Well, unfortunately, the gangbangers and criminals in California didn't get the memo. I lived in Chicago. Chicago, what can you say? I worked at the University of Chicago. If I missed the university-provided shuttle back to Union Station, I had to take the L out of South Chicago at night, which wasn't pleasant. CNN reported that Chicago had, in 2016 alone, 762 murders. You compare that with NPR's data over the last six years, 2011 to 2016, 47 homicides in the whole state of Vermont. And a lot of those actually included police law enforcement shootings. So you compare Chicago in an average of about eight per year, 762, eight. And I have asked many a progressive, what do you do in Chicago to fix it? More gun control laws. Now, that's not used in the noggin. You don't need more gun control laws. I believe what the Boy Scouts say, be prepared, or the term, parallel, pray for peace, plan for war. Always protect yourselves. Gun-free zones, foolish. Have somebody there who knows what they're doing. Now, a lot of people were busked in here today, Michael Bloomberg's organizations. Every town, moms demand action. Gunsense Vermont is a misnomer because the person who runs it lives in New Hampshire and he's bankrolled by Michael Bloomberg again. Michael Bloomberg, who went to Bermuda and he had his own entourage of security guards protecting him. What a hypocrite. What a deceitful person. Do not New York are gun rights in Vermont. Elizabeth Pine from Brattleboro is up. Daryl Montague from Westford is on deck. Anne Watson from Montpelier. You're in the dugout. My name is Elizabeth Pine. I'm from Brattleboro and have lived in Vermont since the age of three. I am the president of Gunsense Vermont. Thank you for holding this important hearing. I do this work along with many committed Vermonters. We are all affected by gun violence. Our executive director, Clay Lasher Summers, was born in Bellows Falls and spent her young years living in Brattleboro going to elementary school there. Her shooting occurred five miles from the bridge between New Hampshire and Vermont along the Connecticut River. Tonight the burden is placed upon the survivors to undergo the retelling of their stories. They are telling stories of horrific violence, of children being murdered, of a parent being murdered, nieces and nephews being murdered and doing this only to ask you to remember their faces as you enter into your discussions of the bills. They undergo memories that are often re-traumatizing as they tell their stories. Clay was 13 years old when her stepfather shot her. At least once a week he would take his hunting rifle out and would grab her and pin her to the wall and put the gun horizontally against her throat and she would hang from the wall. He often took his gun out and dry-fired at her. In January of 1970 her grandfather aimed his gun at her and he fired. She was shot in the back and has shrapnel throughout her body to this day. She has had five surgeries and was hospitalized at what is now Dartmouth Medical. She spent months in the hospital, has lost the function of one kidney and has had severe PTSD at points in her life. Like many others it has taken years to learn to walk next to the trauma. Her memories of childhood include the complete memories of the shooting, hitting the floor and laying there until her brother could get help. He is the other victim. He has never recovered. We are not safe in the places that we should be, even our own homes. The daily shootings everywhere have only made this country numb to violence. Our work is to make the citizens of Vermont safer from gun violence. We are the state that has been progressive in so many areas. I urge you to work on passing S6, House Bill 422 and the S Bill 221. Thank you very much. Darryl Montague from Westford. You're up. Ann Watson from Montpelier is on deck. And Jonathan Johnson from Lincoln. You're in the dugout. Good evening. My name is Darryl Montague. I come here tonight from the town of Westford. I come here tonight as a sportsman, the North Country Sportsman's Club Delegate and also a private citizen. There's a lot of stories tonight about tragic incidents and whatnot and attempted murders and whatnot. As several people know in this room, trust me. I get it. And I get what the, what unnecessary violence is the result or what the result of unnecessary violence is. I don't have time tonight to begin to address all the unnecessary ramifications for of unneeded further bills on the private gun ownership. I'll use my time to focus on the people that these bills do directly affect. This is not the criminal for which it is aimed. By definition, they're not affected because they aren't going to subject themselves to a background check that they know they will fail. Nor will a criminal bother to follow this or any other restrictions. This is why we call them criminals. As far as criminals having guns, the laws already exist about that. Let's stop letting the dangerous ones back on the street at all. Bills such as unfunded mandates to gun shop owners and honest citizens creates nothing but an unnecessary burden only to the honest citizen that has a few pounds of an inanimate object that they want to sell. And why should an honest, private citizen be punished with this burden and penalized with a fee to sell a piece of privately owned property? If they're not comfortable with who they are selling it to and want to consult through a dealer, that option already exists. The FBI statistics have consistently for many, many years shown that states that have much more restrictive control laws have much higher crime rates than we have here in Vermont. As a private citizen, I remind you that the function of government is to deal only with the issues that affect the public domain. All firearm ownership and possession is done in private domain, whether it's in your home, in your car, or on your person. I respectfully ask the committee to reject any and all bills that are pending on these issues. And as public servants, please stick to the issues that do not interfere with the private life of people that you have been entrusted to represent. I thank you for your attention and your time. Ann Watson from Montpilier. Ann Watson from Montpilier. About Sally Milicham from South Burlington. Sally, I'm gonna have you come on up, please. Thank you for allowing me to speak this evening. I'm here as a mother, as a grandmother, as a Vietnam veteran, as a person who has worked with people with mental illness since I was in my 20s. And there are people who are doing fine and do have mental breaks. There are people who have depression. There are people who end up in a domestic violent relationship and things change. Things don't always stay the same in our lives. And I believe strongly in background checks. I don't think our country has gotten better with this kind of thing. And I don't know about you all, but I'm tired of hearing the thoughts and prayers every time something happens. I heard the people who were here speaking about the doctor in the emergency room. I heard that doctor. I heard the people who have been going through all this and the victims and what they've gone through and what they continue to go through. So if there's anything that you all can do to make things better, if any of these bills can improve, I'm not trying to take anybody's hunting weapon, but I don't think we need military guns. I don't think we need any huge things that will go against the police officers. Please try and think about making things better. And let's be done with the thoughts and prayers. Let's move on to progress. Thank you. Jonathan Johnson is up. Gonna pause here to note that we've been going back and forth between those who are for or against. We are at the end of the list of those who are for legislation. And we have one remaining individual that is for, but she is from out of state. And by vote of the committee, we had voted to let Vermonters go first. If we have time at the end, we'll invite her up. Jonathan Johnson, you're up. Bruce Bailey from Richfren, Vermont, you are on deck. Mike Caraview from Plainfield, you're in the dugout. Thank you. I am a ninth generation Vermonter. I grew up in Burlington. On the seventies, I took the hunter safety course and we were invited to the Burlington Police Department to use their firing range. So I drove the bus, CTTA bus, me and my friend with my 22 rifle to go to the police station shoot. Imagine that going down today. Anyways, I've raised four kids in my home in Lincoln. I have raised them around guns. I have trained them properly. And there has never been an incident with my kids with guns. There's been a great deal of respect that was taught in the home. This is where the appropriate behavior with guns needs to happen, not via our legislators. S6 is just a resurrection of S31. Many people have spoken to the ineffectiveness of it and I would agree with that. S2 is pretty much a re-amended resurrection of one of Burlington's city councils and things that they tried to pass a while back. I do understand the emotions surrounding domestic violence. We need to isolate dangerous people who will not govern their emotions and passions from all weapons. That means they need to be removed from society because every house is filled with deadly weapons, not just guns. A Nepali man about a year or so ago in Burlington killed his wife with a cleaver. I know a Nepali who is an interpreter who works with them, with the Nepali refugees. That man had mental issues. That was, the cleaver was there. He didn't need a gun. These are not domestic violence issues but these are two very important cases that changed my heart as to why I carry a gun now. Laura Winterbottom, brutally beaten to death, raped in Burlington. Michelle Gardner Quinn strangled to death, raped. Both those women died at the hands of a man's very hands. There was no weapon involved. Those two deaths made me decide to start carrying a firearm so that I could perhaps protect somebody else Sunday. Three days ago in St. Albans, a man was attempted to be mugged at the ATM machine and he was repelled by the man who also happened to have a gun. Guns work to protect us. Responsible gun ownership is the answer. It is not through legislation. Please do not make laws that will take normally law abiding citizens and turn them into criminals. Thank you. Okay, Bruce Bailey from Richmond. Mike Caravu is on deck and I understand that that will conclude our speakers for the evening. Evening. Bruce Bailey from Richmond. I'm an NRA certified firearms instructor. I've taught hundreds of people to shoot safely, including hundreds of Boy Scouts at Mount Norris and the Shell Reservation. Not that I don't know of any that have had any problems with guns that have gotten in any trouble with guns. I taught them better than that. I was the rifle team captain for Vermont Air Guard for 20 years. I taught a lot of people there to shoot. We shot with pistols and rifles and machine guns. I've shot it off thousands and thousands, thousands of rounds. I've never been injured. I've never seen anybody injured and I've never known anybody to get in trouble with a gun. Almost 30 years in the military I've lived and shot in a lot of different states and few foreign countries. And their laws were all much more stringent than ours and much less efficient. We don't need none of the law. Let's not send another solution in search of a problem. We should remove abusers from the home, not the firearm. And I tell folks that have witnessed these horrible crimes elsewhere, this is Vermont, not so more used to live. Not somewhere you saw in the news or in the news. Those crimes are all terrible and we can't put up with them. But this is Vermont. We don't have those problems here, as a rule. So don't New York my gun rights. Thank you. My name is Mike Kerrew from Plainfield, Vermont. I've lived in Vermont all my life except the four years that I spent in the United States Navy. I've had businesses in Vermont and currently I'm retired. What I'd like to state today is Vermont is a small New England state. While small in size, it has a long heritage of self-sufficient and patriotic citizens. From its first settlers providing food for the table to the Green Mountain boys, our citizens have been guided by a clear conscience to provide and protect their families and heritage. We adhere to existing federal and state and local laws and regulations with the expectation of fair and impartial treatment. While abiding by these laws, we recognize the Second Amendment only reinforces our inalienable right to defend oneself and therefore should not be infringed upon. The plethora of existing laws rarely show two facts. One, dotting your eyes and crossing all your legislative tees has no effect on those who have known moral or ethical compass. Second, if current laws are not enforced by the judicial branch, legislating more only enforces insanity. An overwhelming amount of statistics, both state and federal, Silvermont is one of the most law abiding and safe states in this great nation. Negative and invasive influence from both outside and within our borders only erodes our heritage. Preserve our way of life and acknowledge the adage. If it isn't broke, don't fix it. And thank you for allowing me to be the last one up. Thank you. And thank you all for the polite, respectful way that the hearing was conducted. It's great to be a remontor and be in this chamber. And thank you all. But have a good night. We keep that away from you. That actually went very well. Good job, Eric. We never did anything wrong.