 My name is John Hamry. I'm the president here at CSIS. We are delighted to be partnering with the Williamsburg Foundation on this forum. Let me just say a word of background on how this has happened. Colin Campbell, a very, very good friend. And we were talking about nine months ago. And he's a very deeply optimistic man about the world and said that he wanted to use the inspirational powers of the Williamsburg Forum and the Williamsburg platform to help with big problems in the world today, not just to celebrate the past, but to help with the problems of today. And he said he really had a vision of trying to bring prominent Egyptian parliamentarians and civic leaders, political leaders, to Williamsburg so that they might in a calm space of reflection think about this trajectory that Egypt is on. And Egypt is on a remarkable trajectory. In conversation earlier today with friends, said, what's going to happen over the next three years is going to shape the next 30 years. Three years in Egypt, it's going to shape the next 30 years. Now, sadly, we Americans are pretty uninformed about this. And I pulled myself up as an example. I superficially sampled the news. And frankly, the only thing that's on the news these days is about the Boston bombing. Well, that was a tragedy. But those sorts of bombings happen every day in South Asia. I mean, they're happening all over the world every day. But we're so obsessed about this here. And we're closing to our imagination an understanding of one of the most profound revolutions that's going on. The revolution that occurred 15, 18 months ago is not done. It's still unfolding. And yet the policy world in Washington is uninformed of it. And so we wanted to have a chance. And we asked with Colin, our Egyptian friends have been in Williamsburg for the last three days. But we said, come to Washington now. Let's spend this afternoon talking about these issues. Let's bring the dynamic of this world to the Washington policy scene. This is our way of trying to bring this debate more vividly to Washington and the policy community so that we're just not absorbed with whatever is on the daily news. Let's look at things that are truly strategic and important. And that's the purpose of this afternoon. So I'd say thank you to all of you for coming. You're going to be a very large part of the success of this day. Let me turn to John Alterman. John is going to introduce this panel. And I must say, I'm looking forward to hearing these individuals with their perspective. I've had a chance to chat briefly with them. And I can promise you, you're in for a very rich and wonderful experience here today. Thank you very much, John. Take it away, please. Thank you very much, Dr. Hamery, and welcome all to CSIS. Those of you who know me know that Egypt is near and dear to my heart. They say that when you've drunk from the Nile, you'll come back again. I've drunk from the Nile. I don't think I got sick from it. But I keep coming back. Some people say that is a sickness. But Egypt, it's good. So Egypt is near and dear to my heart. It's a great pleasure to be on this panel with a number of people who I either know personally. Some, I know some by reputation. It really is a wonderful representation of the variety of Egypt and some of the talent in Egypt. Starting from your extreme right, my extreme left, we have Musfal Hassan, who's the founder, chairman, and CEO of GCC Global Consolidated Contractors. Before that company was established, he served as the business development representative in London. He was in the public relations business. He was an event organizer. He was an international business developer. He opened an office in Egypt in 2006 and created successful businesses in Libya and Sudan and Qatar. Much of his education was in London. And he will give us some of his thoughts. Qaeda's mail developed something that is on many of our phones. And then he was smart enough to sell it to Intel, which is even better. He has been involved in entrepreneurship and in particular in creating business incubators in Egypt. He, I think, is an example of the best of somebody who has grown up in Egypt, come and gotten education in the United States, gone back and contributed to Egypt. And in the post-revolutionary period, he's been very involved in mentorship of the rising generation. So it's wonderful to have him. Anybody who knows Egypt knows Nageepsuitis, who has built an incredible business among them with Mobanil, which the idea that there would be mobile phones in Egypt are members. That was far-fetched, and so you showed how to be done. Araskam is, of course, one of the most prominent companies in the country. And his role as not only a business leader, but as a thought leader in Egypt, I think, is one that everybody who has followed Egypt has been impressed by. And then, on the end, Menor Shorbegi, professor at the American University in Cairo, she was the deputy secretary general of the constituent assembly drafting the Constitution. She not only has been a commentator on the political development of post-revolutionary Egypt, but I think she has been an incisive analyst, really, a thought leader as people try to understand both what this means and where it's going, and we're delighted to have you on the panel as well. What I thought we'd do to start off with this first panel on the new Egypt is to have each of my colleagues just give very few minutes on what is the new Egypt. Because we talk about the new Egypt. People talk about the new Egypt, but I'm not sure there's consensus on what it is and what it isn't, what it should aspire to be, and what it is not yet. So perhaps we'll start to my left with Khaled, and then we'll move to Mr. Suarez and we'll bounce back and forth. And what I'd like to do is to keep this relatively short and to really create an open dialogue first among us and then among the audience, rather than have a lot of set piece presentations. So you got three minutes and I have magic signs that I will start to wave. Oh, so you start with this one? I start with, you don't even, these guys don't even get the green one to start. We start with the yellow and we go from there. It's putting me under the gun, but I'll try to be very quick. I think I'm happy to represent the new Egypt. The new Egypt is Egypt of the youth. That's the new Egypt to me. It's not Egypt of the politicians. It's not Egypt of the quarrels that we're living. Same way you guys here in the US have the quarrel in Washington and the innovation in the Bay Area driving your economy every day and every morning. I would like to see that happening immediately in Egypt because the political quarrel is important and will eventually hopefully yield some solutions, but obviously it will take time. I'm not a politician at all. I'm happy to be, not to be one. But I hope that while we're doing that and quarreling, we don't lose sight of the ailing economy of the burning fire that we have right now. And my solution or the solution that has been evolving in the new Egypt after the revolution is that of the youth and particularly driving entrepreneurship in this country. It's amazing because I lived a long time to see the people in the country and the difference in behavior towards entrepreneurship before and after the revolution. There are lots of youth who went to Tahir Square despite their parents. Their parents would say, don't go. This is dangerous. They would still go. And that was a mindset change. The same thing would apply if they told their parents and I have a case like that. Third year student Tantai University went to his mother and said, I'm not continuing my studies. I have this great idea of building a company that will recycle electronic waste. And I invested in this guy. I invested in seven others, but that guy would never have had the acceptance of his parents of the community to do what he did before the revolution. After the revolution, people is accepting those youth and they are not even waiting for acceptance. They are driving their own agenda. And I think the new Egypt will be driven by the youth who have been deprived of empowerment throughout the 60 years that we've lived has nothing to do with just Mubarak era. Throughout the years, we have not empowered the youth enough. And to me, that's a really very important change we're seeing. Now, because there is a quarrel, I would like to tell you that I've invested so far, I've built an angel investment fund and I've met with over 200 of about 3,000 startups that came after the revolution. And the seven I invested in, and this is statistics, three are ladies, four are men as entrepreneurs. That's the right statistics. I didn't mean to make it, I didn't put quotas. It just happened to be three were ladies, four were men. One belongs to the Muslim Brotherhood. One is pro-Muslim Brotherhood, but doesn't belong to them. One is a Christian. Again, if you look at that sample that just happened by sheer coincidence, this is a great sample of the Egyptian fabric. That's where we are today. These are the constituents of this society. And when they go to entrepreneurship, when I gather them once a month to talk to each other and help each other, it all transcends politics, ideology, and all of that. And they are all thinking money. Let's make money, let's create wealth, let's make Egypt a very successful country based on our very good ideas that we can serve the communities with and so on. The last point I see the red card starting to get closer is what's the role of the US? And the US for a long time has been supporting governments, states. And a lot of money that has gone in supporting government and states has not paid off, either because of corruption, because of abuse, because of not targeting the right customers or clientele and so on. I think it's about time for a big chunk of the US attention, not just in Egypt, but in the entire Middle East to go towards the youth, towards entrepreneurs. And that's the way that will bring people together. That's the way that will drive the economy and let Egyptians settle their own political quarrels the way they would like. Thank you. Actually, I'm a businessman who became a politician by force. Was not my wish, you know. And I am sure I make a very bad politician because I'm not very diplomatic, you know. The new Egypt is nothing but the old Egypt. Nothing has changed. So we did a revolution to acquire new freedom of rights, freedom of speech, real democracy, women rights, minority rights, a real democratic process. And I can't in good faith, being an honest person, say that we have that today. So the bad news is that there is no new Egypt right now. We are in the same situation when it comes to freedom of speech, the media is under pressure. The opposition is being targeted and it's not safe to be in opposition. The governing body doesn't want to govern democratically. So there is no new Egypt, you know. I mean, I agree. I mean, we all participated in the revolution thinking we will achieve a new Egypt, you know. I cannot tell you how what kind of spirit was in Tahir Square in January 2010, was it? 2011, 2011, I mean, it was like a joy, you know. People were singing, playing guitars. The young people, as my colleague here said, nobody listened to his parents, including me, you know. I mean, I just made a speech now where I told, I started by telling them what happened when I was on a TV show in January, three days after the revolution and Mustafa Barak was still in charge and his minister of interior. And the whole fear of the system was still in place, you know. And then the broadcaster asked me, okay, I was trying to be diplomatic against my nature and try also to save us. So I was saying, okay, let's just move on and forget about revenge for Mubarak and the regime. We want to build a new Egypt and so on. So my, which I called diplomatically, you know, at that time and then the anchor, he was very smart. He put me under the gun. He said, okay, all what you're saying is good, but are you for the revolution or against the revolution? Are you telling the people in Tahirir? Are you with the people in Tahirir or not? So usually I answer very fast, but at this time I took a second because it was very dangerous. And then I said, no, I'm with the people in Tahirir. They should not move from there until we get all the things we're fighting for. And then I went down and the first call I got was from my dad. And my dad told me, what the heck are you thinking? What did you just do now? And can you please explain to me what you just did now? Because you had all the pressure of the old regime. And I told him, I just did what was right. It was the right thing to do. Nothing more. I didn't think much about it. It was the right thing to do. And I share, I am with these people and so on. I mean, if Mubarak would have stayed, most probably I would be now in Torah instead of Amir. But I wish I would be the optimist, you know, but I don't want to lie against my conscience. I mean, as I said, the only way out of the deadlock we're having now is for each party to reach to each other, sit down and see how we get out of this deadlock. Because the attempt to try and rule with your friends and alone, people who don't belong to you and ignore them completely is not gonna work. The young people of Egypt have not died yet. They're still fighting their own the streets and they will not give up until they feel that the revolution they lost their friends for, their eyes and murder and has gained what we really fought for. It was not a religious revolution. It was not about religion. Because all the Egyptians are believing God and are religious, you know. It was about freedom and justice, you know, that we haven't obtained yet, you know. The positive part of that story is one never outgrows one's parents enjoying watching them on television. So that's comforting. Mustafa. John. Thank you for giving me the chance to present myself and as I bled myself as a normal Egyptian businessman entrepreneur does not belong to any parties. I didn't vote. I didn't want to vote. I didn't know what to do at the time where a total chaos, nobody understand anything. And to be honest, I returned to Egypt from 2005 and decided to work outside of Egypt. As I tried to work in Egypt itself and I crossed with the previous regime badly. So I decided to use Egypt to work in other neighboring countries like Iraq and Libya and Qatar which was a very successful story because Egypt is full of resources. But then after the revolution, I decided to have my own revolution where how do I see Egypt? My friends went to Tahir. I had friends all over. I had friends in Libya. We had 25,000 labor in Libya. We had to evacuate them. So we had so much work to do at the time. But I decided to do my own revolution to understand what's going on. I understand after reading and reading that's not only Egypt. It is the Middle East. It is Syria. It is Libya. It is Gaza. It is Israel. It is the whole region is changing, not only. And the change wave is coming. It's impossible to stop it, whether it's Mubarak regime or any regime, it is coming no way. I give the, of course, the big thanks to the youth of Egypt who lead the revolution. But it was not only the youth of the Egyptian who deleted the revolution. There was a big need for the revolution to happen. And all the big brains of Egypt, the military and whoever decide Egypt future was aware of this revolution eight months ago before the revolution. It didn't come by accident. It was planned and it happened. And when the Egyptian people went down to the street everything start to fall down automatically. For the past two years we decided as a group to look at the real problem of the streets of Egypt. We pulled out all our engineers from all over our sites. We focused in Egypt in a capacity of 200 engineers studying the best economic reforms for Egypt for free. For whoever party is winning. We worked first for the military. Then we started to work for the Freedom and Justice Party and then we started to present our ideas to the presidential level and it's going and I see there's some progress is happening. Maybe it's not in the media. Maybe there is no enough media about the positive view about Egypt, which is I blame the media for this big time. But there are many economic reforms, steps has been taken every ministry. I see I'm very optimistic, extremely optimistic about the future of Egypt as we are too close to each ministry and the reforms of each ministry is happening. First phase President Mosey took the power from eight months ago or nine months ago. He elected the prime minister and the prime minister elected ministers. And then every minister took his position reviewing the current ministry of corruption problems and I agree that the corruption was too deep up to the small employees who received 500 or 1000 Egyptian pound salary. So it's a tree of corruption and to manage a country with this corruption problems, it's very difficult. So every minister decided to run a full inspection in his ministry and to find the best way of how to correct this corruption. Of course the ex regime did fight against this big time until now and the whatever the freedom and justice or whoever will take the power as a political party will face the same problem. If you're really looking to establish a new system of clarity and transparency, you will face problems with the old regime network. And this is what we faced so far. So I really don't blame so much what's going on into the streets of Egypt now. It is a new wave of transaction to the better future. We are too close to understand that there are many good things are happening. And I really look forward for the oppositions to participate even if the Muslim Brotherhood stopped them. They have to force their participation by a strong economical model. They have to publish it. I'm sorry, the red card is here. Sir. Thank you very much. Thank you, John. I really think that the new Egypt is yet to emerge. It's not there yet. And I do not see or think of Egypt today as post-revolutionary. I think of Egypt today as still in a revolutionary state. And what happened was that the 18 days that toppled Mubarak was simply the beginning. And I think that it was a revolt against not just the corruption and the brutality of that regime and the undermining of the whole society and the different institutions, but it was also a revolt against the colossal failure on all different levels. And now it's the building of Egypt. And I think that there is a potential for a democratic Egypt. And democracy everywhere is faulty, including the American democracy. And how about then if it's a transition to democracy? Yesterday we had Professor Gordon Wood of Brown University who actually told us how messy it was after the American Revolution for years. And I think that that is an important lesson for us Egyptians to keep in mind. In my view, there is a lot of work for us Egyptians to work on. And the way I see it is that it's an ongoing struggle. Democracy is not a place where you reach and then we're celebrating that we're in a democracy. It's an ongoing struggle. It's an ongoing struggle in Egypt to reach our dream of having a democratic future. It's an ongoing struggle for women in Egypt to have equal rights just as it is in the United States where women now are still fighting for fair pay. And also what I would say the relationship between religion and state is also an issue everywhere in the world. I think that the Egyptian democracy is going to have its own coloration. And it is going to be an Egyptian coloration. Egypt is not Pakistan, Egypt is not Turkey, Egypt is Egypt. And as much as in the United States, there is a separation between state and religion. There is a very close relationship between religion and politics in the United States. And I think that the American experience which is very different than the European experience is much closer to the Egyptian experience where I think that Islam is going to have a role in the Egyptian democratic experience. Now it's up to us in Egypt to figure out the relationship between religion and state. And I have been calling on my different colleagues who are politicians and I'm not, I'm independent to face up to this important responsibility and start the dialogue, start the dialogue in order to reach a national consensus on what should be the relationship between religion and state in Egypt. Thank you very much. I thought maybe we would start where you talked about, well, the revolution's ongoing. Chewin Lai in China, reportedly perhaps apocryphally said when asked about what he thought of the American Revolution in the mid 1970s, it's too early to tell. When do you think we will really be able to judge this? I mean, Mr. Suarez said, there hasn't been a revolution. Osvaldo Hassan said, there's been a revolution? It's going well. Khaled said there's been a revolution in people's minds and there's no going back. When do you think we'll be able to reach some consensus both on what has happened and whether it is a positive development for the Egyptian nation or a step back? We'll always start with Mr. Suarez. I think it will only happen when the governing body understands that their attempt to, what we call in Egypt, we use the term, to make all the key power points in the ruling mechanism of Egypt in their hands will fail because the Egyptians want equality and the first rule of this equality that you just don't put your friends and family in positions so you can control the rest of the people. So it will not happen and we will not see the real democracy until they understand that this is a country for everyone from members of the Muslim Brotherhoods and the non-members of the Muslim Brotherhoods for the Muslims and the Christians because when you talk about religion you need to talk about Christianity too because there are 12 million Christians in Egypt. So it's only when they will realize right now it's very clear that they're still attempting to go their way and not listen to any opposition and not listen to the requirements of the opposition that we want to level playing field. Once they do, once they finally understand that this is not gonna work and they reach out for the opposition so we can build this country together and make sure that everybody lives it safe and we have an independent juridical system, the judges are safe, we are safe as opposition, the businessmen are safe, the private sector is safe, then we will see real progress. So if I could just boil down, it's about the institutionalization of democracy rather than the holding of elections and by institutionalization of democracy it's the ability of all to compete and the ability of all to share an authority. Most of all Hassan, you suggested that some of that's already happened is that, do you think we can judge this revolution a success yet or is the jury still out? When will we know? Well, clearly I can tell you that there's one party is moving forward and one party is criticizing. We need the two parties to move forward. When I decided to go for, to help with my technical engineers, I only found one party has a clear direction with a clear economical model. Maybe it's an idea need to be built on and we decided to help them and go ahead. I didn't see any other ideas. I didn't see any other section of the ideas. So I think what's going on now that the first party is taking the lead for the economic revolution and the results will come very soon. The whole country is turning to a system where the minister will be only an employee. He's no longer important. He's running a system where it's sharing the wealth with all the people. So there is no hassle of who's going to be the minister. The system is changing. The public-private partnership and BOT concept and turning almost 50% of the GDP income to public-private partnership projects will make the Egyptian economy more open to private sector to participate in. From that perspective, there is no need for fighting for government. The governments are going to be only an employee and there is no need for fighting together. There is a need to work together. There is a need to have a parallel economic program made by the opposition competing with the current one or correcting it. We don't see that as businessmen. How have we seen the rise of a post-political Egypt? I repeat, I'm not a politician and politics is always an opinion but I'm surprised to see the economy being an opinion and the economy is obvious. I, sorry, but I fully disagree with Mustafa's assessment. The economy is draining. The economy is falling apart. The numbers say that. It's not what I wish it was. I hope you were right. I'm very unhappy that I'm saying that but the economy are numbers. There is a current account deficit. There is an energy bill that we are unable to pay. There is drainage every day and if the IMF loan is postponed further, which it seems that it's not done yet, we will be in deep trouble much sooner than we can fix the political quarrel. So the jury is out because I'm not optimistic about the political quarrel anymore after being here for three days because I've been listening to both parties and I'm very a partial. I'm not with one or the other but after listening to both, I discovered and realized how far apart they are and that I don't see much reconciliation at this stage. So my only hope now is to isolate that quarrel from the burning fire of the economy. I'll try to find a quick remedy and solution and then maybe the revolution will be called partially successful. If we fall apart as an economy, then obviously I will not be the one judging neither will be any of my colleagues here. It's gonna be the people in the street judging the success or failure of this economy by virtue of not being able to eat, drink and have electricity, very, very basic things. So that would be very unfortunate. So not to ask a Washington question but where does Washington fit into that analysis? I mean, you'd said Washington should be encouraging entrepreneurship, working less with governments, more with people. There is a requirement that the State Department deal with states that we have a relationship with Egypt. The fact is we have a $1.3 billion a year military relationship with the government of Egypt with the armed forces of Egypt. As we think through this analysis, as we talk about the nature of the politics in Egypt, as we talk about the human capital investments that we need to be made and need to flourish, what should the United States be thinking about doing that it's not doing? What should the United States stop doing that's actually counterproductive and not why don't you start? Well, I didn't have a chance to respond to the other question, but just as Mr. Sawir has said, talked about the Christians in Egypt, that is exactly what I meant by Egyptian forces would face up to the reality that this is the core issue that Egyptians have not built a consensus on. And we are actually moving in vicious circles because we're talking about details in Egypt, like the election law or what's going on with the Islamic bonds, that's not the issue. The issue really, which is creating the lack of trust among the political forces in Egypt, is that they do not trust each other on the issue of state and religion. And unless this issue is solved and everybody has to compromise on it, the Muslim brothers are not leaving and the liberals are not leaving. And we all have to work together. We are Muslims and Christians, liberals, leftists, and Islamists and this issue has to be solved according to all these, to accommodate everyone. When it comes to Washington, I think that what I just said is linked to the role of Washington. I think Egyptians have not had a consensus about core issues. And because of that, it's my advice to Washington is to stay away from Egyptian domestic politics because this is the issue that Egyptians have to figure out themselves. I would just here give two examples because Washington is damned if it doesn't. When President Obama made a statement saying Egypt is not a foe nor an ally, there were people who were complaining that the United States is now shifting its position. When Kerry was in Cairo, people were complaining that the United States is taking sides. So each side of the Egyptian polarization is actually accusing the United States of being siding with the other. And the word accusation I'm using deliberately because it is an accusation, it's used to discredit the other side. And because of that, it seems to me and I appreciate American pragmatism and the pragmatic philosophy is very American. And I appreciate that the United States is going to work with whoever the people vote for in Egypt full stop. And the most dangerous, I think, in the relationship between Egypt and Washington is for Washington to take sides in the Egyptian polarization. Thank you. Well, it's nice when civil or liberals disagree because this is what everybody's saying. You guys are all fractured and you disagree. No, so personally I don't think the United States can afford not to interfere in Egypt. And that's maybe the excuse why they have interfered and everybody in Egypt believes that they have sided with the Muslim Brotherhoods from the beginning and till even till now. So because Egypt must succeed, you know, there is no, I mean, we don't have the luxury of leaving Egypt to fail because Egypt is not just any Arab country. If Egypt falls, the whole region will go down the drain. So none of us here opposition or Muslim Brotherhoods can and or nor America can afford to let Egypt go. So to think that America must not interfere, it's just too idealistic when we're not happy. But what we're telling them is you guys here, you live in a country, you have an excellent constitution, black, white, Hispanic, Muslim, Christian, Jewish, all have the same rights. You don't have the churches burning. You don't have Muslims being killed, you know, because you don't have any of these issues. You have free press. You have the Senate and the Congress. You have Democrats and Republicans. You live under the rule of law. Your juridical system is completely independent. So do you think that this is luxury? We can't have this. So what we're saying is for America, engage, engage with the Muslim Brotherhoods, support Egypt. We have no problem with that, but one request is, if you do that, just remind whoever is governing that we Egyptians will not accept any turning back to a dictatorship or a fascistic regime or a regime that attacks the juridical system, neglects the rule of law and order, refuses to have transparent and fair elections under international supervision, refuses to listen to the opposition, you know. So it's not like we're telling the Americans if they wanna engage, they should engage under the same rules they have, because they've tried it in the 50s and the 60s when they sided with dictators, when they sided with fascistic regimes and where did this take us? Nowhere. So we're living now in the 20th century and we're 21st century and we don't want to live in the 20th century. Good. How is that the right plane for American engagement? Again, in my humble interpretation, the US has been always looking for the Holy Grail, which is a regime in the Middle East that is popular, but yet fully aligned with American standards and policies. And since Nasser, that didn't happen. Either they were popular or they were aligned with the US. They could not achieve so far this dream of finding somebody who can do it. There may have been hope that the Muslim Brotherhood is that popular yet aligned ally. I don't think popular has become something that at least the street agrees upon. They have some support but popularity is fading, at least the least to say. So what can the US do now when it failed yet again after the fourth regime to find that popular aligned regime? Two things I've noticed and let me tell you a very, very quick story because after my PhD from MIT I lived about 10 years, started company CEO, thought that I knew it all, and I went to take a course at Wharton and we had two days on negotiation skills. And I discovered how wrong I was for 10 years with all my skills of negotiation and all what I tried to do that I knew nothing about negotiation. This was an eye-opener to me. In two days it changed my life until this very day. And what I saw, both parties is lack of negotiation skills. Negotiation is not just a talent, it's not just showing your muscles and showing your power, it's not being stubborn. Negotiation is a skill and something you can learn. We had about seven case studies in two days and we had to work very hard to solve these cases on negotiation skills. I urge all parties to go and take negotiation skills. The US may prepare a course like that. This sounds silly and naive, but sorry. I mean, this can seriously help. If it doesn't or at least doesn't accomplish the full thing, let me give you another thing the US did very well, Camp David. How much quarrel was there between Egypt and Israel before Camp David? This was a battle, right? And it was solved in a few days. Sadat on one side, Begin on the other side and Carter chartering between the two until he fixed the negotiation skills problem and they converged. Do we have a bigger quarrel today between one party and the other? Definitely not. At least we're all Egyptians and we all want one thing. So maybe the US can play that role. Maybe the US can bring five from this side, five from that side, put them in Camp David for two weeks and solve the problem. I'm serious. I mean, I don't, wherever we're going today is really serious. It's really bad. If people are not feeling the urge, I am. And I'm not a politician. So I hope the US takes one of these actions or both. Three days at Williamsburg clearly wasn't what the doctor ordered. Mustafa. Yeah. I believe I agree with all the views that my colleagues has explained despite the fact that the US should interfere between the Egyptians themselves. I really disagree with this because every country has its own DNA and only the people in the country understand what they want and what do they heading for. The Egyptian people by nature are peaceful. My neighbors are Christians. My good friends are Salafis. My ex-care friend, I'm sorry, I'm married now. And she was Christian. So can you imagine? We are normal people. We never had fights together before. We never saw churches burning or Muslim brotherhoods are dying and fighting like that. This is all made up by the revolution problems. And sometimes if you investigate more, you will find money behind it and targets and other stuff. So it is not going to shape the Egyptian people at the end of the day. But I agree the US should interfere in one thing which is the update of Camp David. And Camp David is now 30 years old which is things had changed in the whole world. Powers had changed completely. The game is different. There must be an update. We want to develop Sina. What's going on with Israel? We want to have developed Swiss Canal. What's going on with the global security issues? Where are the American part in this development? The threats and then the risk around the Middle East. This is a big part where the US should play immediately because it's going to shape the politics of the Middle East. Thank you. Opening negotiations presumably also would mean opening negotiations over the Nile waters. I think that would be enough negotiation to fill all of Khaled's courses for some time to come. Before we go to the audience, I have a few more issues I want to talk about. One is the issue of parties other than the United States. We have a bilateral relationship with Egypt. We are constrained by our laws. We have a role in Egyptian politics as people have thought about the United States, often unpopularly supporting the previous government. Is there a way to think about solutions to the current problems in Egypt where the United States would not be doing it bilaterally, would not be doing it primarily, but the US would be supporting a broader effort or there would be an effort that others would coordinate? I mean, oftentimes the instinct in Washington is let's find the Washington solution. Is there a solution Washington should help emerge, should allow to emerge, which isn't Washington-centered at all to deal with these problems on the human capital side, on the trust side, on the constitution writing side? I mean, let's think more globally about ways to have people who are interested in helping Egypt help Egypt. I'm open to any at all suggestions. The problem is every time the US interferes, this grew up and we end up in a bigger mess, you know? That's, I mean, if you want to call the Iraq war a success, you know, I mean, like, you go to war, you spend $200 billion and you deliver the country to Iran. What a great result, you know? So, I mean, so that's just one example. So, I'm not so sure that we want the US to interfere. I mean, I agree with Mustafa, it's actually the only thing I agree with him about, that we have to, as Egyptians, Egyptians have to sit down together. All what we're saying to the US is okay, because we need the support of the US economically and we need the IFC and we need the international assistance and so on, what we're saying is, this cannot be an unconditional help. What we need to have is we help, because right now, country to what everybody thinks, I can tell you, and I'm a businessman and I know my economy and I know my country, there will not be any economic development in Egypt unless the political deadlock that exists now gets resolved. And when we are saying that, when we are saying that, I can tell you that I'm in touch with the street, not with the political parties or my party and so on, because I'm a person who I've always dealt with the young people and I only believe in the young people and I even don't go out at night except with half my age. There are people who wouldn't brag about that. No, it's because I feel they have the future, they have the innocence, they're still not tainted, gives me a lot of energy and that's the reason. So to tell you the truth, as I said in the beginning, the US can only help us by saying, okay, guys, do you all believe in the cartel of the United Nations? Do you believe, do you like our American constitution? Because it's not an American constitution. It's a constitution that would work out for anybody in the whole world, it would work for Russia. If Russia would take your constitution, we would have even better situations there, we would have a democratic Russia, okay, which we don't have today. So the motto of my speech should be like that. Yes, we need the help, yes, we need the support, but not unconditional support. The support should be based that whoever is governing this country, liberals, Muslim brothers, they should adhere to the five principles in life, that they should real democracy accepting the opposition, not harassing the opposition accepting, believing in the private sector, believing in the women and the rights, believing in that minorities and Christians have the same rights and should be treated equally. Having a free media, not to be alienated by the media and trying to close down and crack down on the media, it's just the symptoms that you know very well. I don't know if this picture is here in the US or not, but all these five, six principles, there is zero of that in my country right now. I actually think two things. One is it seems to me that the United States, after supporting Mubarak for his whole life, was... He trained in the Soviet Union, you know. But he was supported by the US, yes. The support of Mubarak after that, and the US was also taken by surprise by the Egyptian Revolution. And I remember very well that there was a banner in the last few days of the revolution that was held by one of our young people that was saying, Obama, we do not want to hate you. And I think that this banner was telling volumes about what Egyptians are expecting from the United States in the coming period. One of the interesting and important things that happened, and I think comes into this, is that the United States has now conditioned its economic assistance with the IMF loan. And I think that this is actually, the IMF is very unpopular in Egypt. And in my view, I am against the kind of austerity measures, especially after what we have seen in Greece lately. And I don't think that the US position on this is helpful. But to tell you the truth, if you're asking me personally, I would prefer that the United States' assistance, economic assistance, would come through production projects and not through loans or economic assistance. That's number one. Number two on the regional level, it seems to me that there is a chance now for Egypt to get back on its feet regionally. And the last years of the Mubarak regime, when Egypt declined regionally, that opened the chance of a vacuum that was only filled by Iran. And it seems to me that the US needs to realize that the independent Egypt, not the Xerox, a copy positions of Egypt with the United States in the region. And independent Egypt is far more of interest to the United States because if Egypt has a regional power, this will be very beneficial to the United States if Egypt has different relations, diverse relations in the region that are not exactly the same as the United States as it was during Mubarak. Then this will actually be very helpful to the United States in solving regional problems. Mustafa, is there an international role that we should be looking for, not just the United States, but more, brother? Exactly, I mean, I agree with Dr. Manar that the United States had to look at Egypt now from a different perspective. The aid programs and the economic assistance are not enough anymore. We are moving to a different economic reforms and the US has to change the model with Egypt. Private sector of large blue ship companies in the States has to come into Egypt. New companies has to come to Egypt. We are a member of the American Chamber of Commerce and every year we find the same companies, the same thing, the same words, the saying, where are the new companies? Where are the IT blue ship companies? Where are the Houston oil and gas companies? Where are the newcomers to come to Egypt? In a private sector model, we don't have to have it as a political economy. You need to support the current economy of the businessman in Egypt and to help them and educate them. Remember, the economic reforms in Egypt are completely new. The Egyptian people need to be educated in order to fill this gap and we don't have someone to help us in understanding these economic reforms. There's only one party now is taking care of it. What about the rest? So the US could support technically. Where is the red card? The red card is in our minds. You've made money as an entrepreneur. You've incubated businesses. What's the role? And you've said we spend too much time thinking about governments. What is the role of governments around the world to create the environment where we can have a less government-centered approach to Egypt? Yeah, let me just, I think most of the answers did not address the question but I'll comment on them quickly and then come to your question. I think two observations. First of all, the non-military aid to Egypt from the US, from a commercial point of view is very little. It's in the hundreds of millions of dollars, not a billion dollars. That is not going to make it or break it. That's sort of insignificant in an economy of any size, not to mention the size of Egypt. So to use it for or against with 100, 300, 400 million dollars, I think we're missing the point. Second, a quick comment. The US does not tell its private sector where to go or what to do. Intel, IBM, any company chooses and selects where it wants to go, why it wants to go there and these are the rules of the private sector. I'm proud to belong to it and I know how it is. Now coming to your question, is there any other player but the US who is playing a role positively or negatively? And the answer is probably yes. Definitely Qatar is playing a role. Nobody can ignore that for whatever reason. Again, I'm not a politician. I don't understand the Qatari agenda. They may have one, they may be innocent, but they are playing a role. The fact that they are sending their, you know, injections to calm down the economic crisis is appreciated for sure, but at what price and for how long, it's not clear. It's sometimes not good to see somebody bleeding and just give him a narcotic, you know, or something to calm him down. Sometimes you need to face the problem and do the operation. And by sending just quick monies here and there without the scrutiny of an IMF or a World Bank which has its own rules, I agree. It may not be very popular, but guess what? Medicine sometimes is painful and guess what? The pain today may be far less than the pain a year later. I mean, we've heard yesterday from my friend, Ayman, about the Greek experience, how they missed the first pain, and now they are in the second pain which is far more painful than the first one. And if Egypt waits longer, I think it's gonna be more painful. So we want, from a commercial point of view, Egypt has far more relationship with Europe than with the US, believe it or not. The US is not our biggest commercial partner compared to the EU, for instance. We have Italy, Spain, France, and Germany. I mean, much bigger trade partners from a commercial point of view. So the US has its own military interest that remains and nobody's debating that on all fronts, but the commercial aspect I think is very important. Europeans can play a role to help Egypt because it's Mediterranean, it's quasi-European because we're very close. If we fail, we'll export our people to Italy and Spain which is happening. People are taking trips and dying in the Mediterranean just to go and find jobs. That will increase further down the road if we have bad economy. This will have an impact on Europe. And I think Europe can play some role to answer your question, but Europe has its own problems today. I mean, it's particularly our closest neighbors on the Mediterranean. We all know how it is, you know? So to ask them, Italy and Spain, to come and help us today is a little bit unfair. So that's why I don't think they will do something very imminently. Thank you, now I'd like to turn it to you. If I could make three requests. First, that you identify yourself when the microphone comes. Second, that you only ask one question because there are a number of people I think who want to ask questions based on the hands I've seen creeping up whenever somebody finishes. I see the hands. And the third is that you ask your question in the form of a question, which is a genuine question with a genuine answer rather than a statement followed by what do you think of my statement? The first question, this gentleman here has been very patient in the front. So yes, sir. My name is Saad Al-Fishawi. I have been in the United States since 57. When I thought that Nasser was going to bring Egypt down the drain and that's happening. And by the way, the thing that finally decided me to do that because I was very actually successful lawyer in Egypt at the time was reading Animal Farm. I don't know how many people know about that. So very quickly things I heard, I heard and cannot believe my ears. One of them saying that America does not necessarily have a principle which religion does not, does not have any interference with politics. They do. And even a prayer in the public schools is prohibited. Any prayer. So that was not. Another thing I understand either by training or by being that person inclination, people can be very optimistic. Because here I heard the optimistic point that economy can save and salvage easy from the problems it has now. That cannot happen because humans don't live by bread alone. We need to come to the question. Well, also whether America is interfering or not. Every country in the world by definition it's public relations, it's international relationships is built on one principle, the interest of that country. Is there a question, sir? Does not know where it's interest and actually the first speaker was absolutely right. Lack of information. President Obama the other day with the suspects says these young people are American, the way they live, American, they will react. He does not know the fact that by the definition of Muslim brothers, they do not have allegiance to any country. Their aim is to have one big country of all people. Okay, okay. Mr. Fashari, true or not, that violates the rule. That violates the rule of not making a statement and saying what do you think of my statement? So we're gonna go to another question right there, sir, in the white shirt, yes sir. My name Amin Mahmoud, I'm with American Egyptian Strategic Alliance which is a lobby company organization. My question is the president of Egypt responsible with the opposition to negotiate together and the shame on them all, both of them who don't have a leadership, if they don't sit down and talk to each other to solve the problem of Egypt. We have enough people with a brain not to refuse to talk to each other. And I'm supporting the young opinion, not to say anything about the other people, but you guys will lead the way to success Egypt. I'm afraid I've gone O for two. I must say that for me this is a record because all the time I've ever laid out that rule I've never had a problem like this. But Ambassador Wendy Chamberlain I can trust to keep with the rules. Boy, I sure hope so now. I do have a question. I do have a question. We haven't really talked about the judiciary and when we look at what appears to us there across Atlantic as a crackdown on the judiciary and we see the crackdown on certain businessmen and we see the crackdown on the free media there appears to be a pattern of intimidation to people who have different views. So I'd like to have a little bit of a discussion on the judiciary, business and the free media. Mr. Suido sounds a television station. I'm sure he has views. That's my favorite question. I think even people think I told you to ask this. Let me tell you the disaster of the legal system in Egypt now that we are suffering. I'll forget about the media and everything. That's really like the easy stuff. But we changed our constitution. We changed one element in the constitution to kick a lady judge because she was too liberal and too forceful in defending human rights. So we reduced the upper constitutional court to 11 people just to eliminate this troublesome lady. So that was the first step. So we made the constitution that totally was done by one party only, not representing the whole society. So our constitution today is practically illegal. I mean, if in any court of law and internationally, this constitution would fail the first test. Then we went out and we surrounded, the constitutional court was surrounded to prevent the judges of the constitutional court to rule on the legitimacy of the parliament and the Shura council. So they couldn't go to their court to oversee the case. And then when we were not done with all that, we came with the exceptional declaration of the president where he gave his rights of God and ended up with removing a general attorney against the law and putting a new general attorney totally in disrespect to the Egyptian laws. So he's an unlawful general attorney we have now. The court has recently ruled that he's unlawful there and he's still there, he doesn't want to leave. Then we ended up when this was not enough because the courts were overruling all the actions of the government and the governing board now. They went out with the demonstration again at the high council of judges in order to what they call, we want to clear the juridical system from these rotten judges. So because we want judges that will rule according to our request and our wishes. So that's the disaster of the juridical system. I will not prolong more because if I told you again about the media and so on, it would be too long. Yeah, sure. I'll give you a slight different view on this and it's a result of the last three days talking to all parties and so on. And again, I'm lucky not to belong to anyone. Underlying problem for this is trust, lack of trust. If you listen to Muslim Brotherhood and you read between the lines, they are scared to death. They are scared of the past. Some of these judges have put them into prison and many of the leadership of Muslim Brotherhood have seen prison, not just once but more than once. We, none of us, I don't think none of the liberals, none of the Egyptians, nobody was supportive of the type of, you know, judges or things that happened in the past, including people being put in prison without a fair justice. But that is a lingering thing that keeps them trying to, you know, do things one way or the other to prevent that past from coming back. They call them Fulul in Egypt. Fulul is a word that stands for the past now. People who belong to Mubarak, people who would like to support Mubarak's regime coming back, the judiciary who belong to Mubarak's regime. But probably 90% of that is not accurate or true. It's just that fear and lack of trust that's driving that line of thought. They are scared, they are acting as if they are a minority. As if it's the past and they are afraid of everybody else including the opposition, the judiciary, the old regime. They are just not behaving like people in charge. And this is a fundamental problem. And that lack of trust on all sides is the underlying problem in my interpretation. I just would like to say two things on this point of the judiciary. One of them is because I was in the Constitutional Assembly and I attended the, I was in the leadership, also so I attended all the meetings. When we were talking about the judiciary and I'm a woman and I would have never agreed if it's deliberately against the Hennig-e-Belly. This actually is a very popular story that never happened. What happened actually was that when we were talking about the Supreme Court there were a lot of Constitutional Law professors and judges who were in the meetings about how to re or how to invent or how to look at how our Supreme Court is going to look like. And many of them, some of them are from liberal parties including the Weft Party, said that 19 members is a lot. And they wanted to reduce that number and they had very reasonable arguments to make on why this is a too big of a number. And some of them actually proposed that the number would be nine like the American Supreme Court. But others were a little concerned that the number would be from 19 to nine. It's so said, let's make that 11. And all of the other people agreed and none of the people on this table knew that Hennig-e-Belly was number 12 or number 11. I mean, so this was totally, totally one of the stories that people kept repeating and have no basis whatsoever, just as many stories that were said about the Constitutional Assembly. Now the other point that I really disagree and many of my colleagues here know that I'm an independent person, I cherish my independence, I'm not part of any political party. And obviously I'm not a Muslim brother. But I was one of the people who protested in Tahrir Square and asked for the prosecutor general of Mubarak to be kicked out because he's corrupt. He was appointed by Mubarak. And it wasn't just me, we were a lot of people who asked for this. This was one of the demands of the revolution from day one. Now, when we made this demand, we knew that the prosecutor general cannot be fired. We knew that and we still said that we want this guy to be kicked out, which means that we were not counting on the Constitution or the law. This was a revolutionary demand. And that's why I was so puzzled and mystified when some of my friends and colleagues who were with me during these protests, calling for the kicking out of this guy when the president kicked him out, they were like, oh no, this is really against the judiciary. I just am puzzled and mystified and don't understand because according to the law and Constitution, he cannot be fired, yes. But we in Tahir Square knew that and we still were asking for his kicking out. This was a demand right from the days of SCAF and SCAF didn't do it. That's only what I wanted to say on this point. And that has nothing to do with the appointment of the new one. I'm talking especially about the firing of that prosecutor general. I will solve your puzzle, you know. I don't know why you are puzzled. It's not a matter of who is the general prosecutor. It's a matter of respecting the law. If the president wants to remove a corrupt or a general like you call him Mubarak or its revolution, if we start neglecting our own laws and not adhering to and we give the president that right that he does not, he's not accountable to our law, it's a very dangerous situation. So, no, no, no, no, I'm not done yet, I'm not done yet. So what you miss completely is that this man was fired illegally and the new one was appointed illegally. And this way we are giving him a free hand to neglect our laws and once a president is not accountable to his own country's law and constitution, it's the end of that nation. That's our lady right here in black. Hi, I'm Noha, sorry. Noha George, I'm an Egyptian-American. I live here in D.C., but I wanna go back to how this whole revolution started with the younger generation. And you really don't hear some, like they go into your square, you see the pictures and all that stuff, but moving forward is there a role for them still to shape this and would be the new Egypt or has this been completely hijacked? Well, so far it's been hijacked, but they are resisting. I see them, I work with them and they are not letting go this time. I assure you, I work with the young and I meet with them all the time and I hear also news about the young within political parties revolting. I would love to see the young kicking out everybody else and taking it in their own hands in all parties because they will be negotiating without legacies. They will be converging easier than what we're experiencing today. Whether they will succeed short-term, I'm not sure, but the young will succeed because we have a population that's extremely young. I was just giving the example yesterday that the people in charge in Egypt, most of them, 90% in high-level positions, they are men above 60, right? That's 3% of the Egyptian population. While below 40, we have 80% of the population. So it's a very skewed, unfair distribution and anything that's skewed and unfair does not last too long. And to this, thank you very much, Noha, for asking this question because it's actually the core of what is going to happen in my view and I think that the next struggle in Egypt is going to be generational and you might be watching out for that because the fatal mistake that the younger generation that triggered the revolution did was that they deferred. After the toppling of the Mubarak, they deferred to the older generations which actually went back to politics as usual, going back to their polarization and all of that. Now, the young generation has become sick and tired of all the political elite. It's not just that they are upset with the Muslim brothers but they are upset with their own parties as well as with their own political trends and there are more than one party that has a generational conflict and revolt from the young. So this is in my view what is going to happen and actually this will be very positive to happen because I think that it's now time for this generation to start ruling Egypt. The whole political elite in Egypt has proved to be inept. I think the young generation participation in the revolution has never hijacked ever. I think they are trapped between the political parties fighting for the chair, fighting for the politics. They don't know where to go. They're trying to find their way. I've seen many people, they have energy, they are aggressive, they want to do something and I believe one things are stable. We will see the young generation are participating more aggressively in the politics and the economies of Egypt. Thank you. I'm sorry, I'm getting to the point where people are starting to get very aggressive waving hands. I see the hands, we're not gonna have time to get everybody but there's a woman in the back who I'm afraid is gonna fall off her chair if I don't call on her. So why don't we go there and then we'll see if we can get another question in. Actually I didn't want to ask anybody something but I wanted to go deep inside, Mr. Mustafa. Because there are people who have questions, no honestly, because we had the problem at the beginning there, people do have questions. Okay, it's a question actually. I'm Julia Milad, I'm membership from most of movement in Egypt before the revolution. And when he explained our community in Egypt and when he talked about Egyptian people, all of you talk about how we can live together and when he said my neighbor is a Christian and my ex-girlfriend, she's Christian and my good friend, he's Salafi and he didn't talk about another Muslim, he's not Salafi and he's not Muslim brotherhood and he bought Christian in two parts, I don't like it anymore to put it in it. When he said he's my neighbor and my ex-girlfriend and he talked about businessmen and I want to mention that and how is America can help Egypt, how is businessmen, America can help Egypt. I wanna ask you what about business, Egyptian businessman, what's happened with Muslim brotherhood, what's happened to this guy? So if I understand the question, the question is are there opportunities for people in business who are not close to the brotherhood, is that accurate? So yes or no? No. I really don't understand the question. You mean, I don't understand. You mean the view from the Egyptian businessman? What do you mean? Okay, let's move on. I really didn't understand your question. Ibrahim Owais, Professor Emeritus from Georgetown University. I have two questions for that, one question. The question is, are Muslim brothers planting the seeds of their own destruction? Who would like to take that? Yes, and big no. I'm sorry, I say no as well. This gentleman in the front row will get the last question on this round. Thank you very much. Ahmed Fatih, Alwav News correspondent of the United Nations, a little bit steer away from foreign policy and I'll stick to the economy as most of the members of the panel have a business background. How do you expect with the rise of a fascist regime as the Muslim brotherhood that the policies of the free market are gonna change and the continuation of the crony capitalist system that existed during Mubarak will forgo? I will borrow a quote from a former Muslim brotherhood girlfriend I had. She's retiring happily in Amsterdam. That Muslim brotherhood have mastered the art of saying what they don't mean and act without giving a prior notice. Thank you very much. I have no comment in this to be honest. I'm not willing to jeopardize the efforts of the Muslim brotherhood. I believe where I owe them a great respect because I've seen them how they work hard. I've seen the president how he's flying every country, not sleeping for 24 hours continuously trying to work hard for the economy. Well, if you used to this question and there is a bedroom here as well in this hotel. Look, I want to be fair first. I mean, everybody, you know, the Muslim brothers took over the country. The country was not in its best of shape. Anybody who would have taken this country at the time they took it would have been faced with the same, with problems and even more. If you want to know the general problems we have, one of the biggest problems we have on the economy is that the socialist or the labor reunions or all the labor in Egypt thought that this revolution is going to bring them money on a train and it's going to make them all become rich and that they don't need to work as much and like a total. Then we had the disillusion of the security was before the Muslim brotherhood came. So it was not like when they came, it became that bad. I always get attacked when I say that our economic program of the free Egyptian party that I was initiated for actually is identical with the Muslim brotherhood's economical program. So we don't have in our party a problem about that. I also, that's why I always reach out to the governing body and say, you need to understand that this is not just your country, it's all of us, our countries, and we can only be built if we all put our hands together and build it. And I'm repeating that every single time. So to be honest, everything the Muslim brotherhood been trying to do in the economical side or the principles that I am, I can criticize some of the, like the government we have now is weak and some of the choices of the ministers are not the best and so on, but the program because Islam is actually a religion that encourages business and trade. It's one of the most practical, let's say, religions when it come to that. And therefore, personally, I am not at all against, I haven't seen any economical step that they were trying to do, except that of course we have the same symptoms like during Mubarak. So some of the organs of the economic system, like the regulator of the stock exchange is politicized, like some ministers are politicized. So it means some decisions are being taken for political, from political angles. But in general, the problems the Muslim brotherhoods are facing would have been faced by anyone who had had to come and rule. And the program they are trying to encourage would have, is not the program that I have a lot of criticism to. I don't see also, I agree with Nagib, any ideological problem of the Muslim brotherhood with a free economy, but I see a lack of experience. And the economy is driven by many elements, not just one. And the Muslim brotherhood's experience in driving an economy is not there. Let's face it, I think they admit that as well. They have not run a country before, and they don't know the elements, the service industry, the manufacturing industry, all of that. They know a little bit of the trade industry, which is a small or a component of the economy. The rest, tourism, for instance, which is a big driver for foreign currency in Egypt. Services, information technology, which is a sector I fully understand, and I appreciate that it's a big potential for Egypt. All of that is very, very new to them. The previous regime has come to some grip to understand these elements. Nobody should deny that. I was not pro that regime, I stood in Tahir Square against it, but we have to learn how to be very objective. And there were elements in the economy before the revolution that were growing relatively well. There was a big element of corruption that prevented that economic growth from trickling down to the poor. But that problem remains. So we need to find a solution for the real problem, not invent new problems and try to solve them. That's the problem. One of the things that I always appreciated about Mr. Saweris, who is Christian, is his objectivity and the way he talks about issues from different angles. Actually, I am not comfortable and I do not like the way the language that was used sometimes in this room about the Muslim brothers, because this language is actually a manifestation of what's going on, what's wrong with Egypt at this moment. This is a part of the politics of exclusion that is going on. And guess what? The Muslim brothers are not going to leave Egypt. They won the elections. I didn't vote for them, but they won the elections. I have to take my hat for them if I'm really a Democrat. Some people claim to be liberal and Democrat, and then when it comes to the Muslim brothers, they use very exclusionary language that I think is unacceptable in a democratic society. We have come to the end of this panel. I apologize to the many people who are here, the positive note of this is there's another panel yet to come. We'll take a 15 minute break. Restrooms are out to that side. We have some refreshments. We'll come back. Please join me in thanking the panel. Thank you. Thank you.