 Party three, two, one, and we are live. Welcome everybody back to the Segal talks here from the Martin E. Segal Theatre Center at the Graduate Center CUNY in New York City. It's a springtime. It's a springtime. People are out in New York perhaps in bigger numbers that it might be save or not, but still be in the middle of a crisis. As we all know, the epicenter is in New York State. In the world at the moment with people infected people dying. Everything is closed theaters restaurants businesses is an unprecedented situation and for many many weeks theater artists have now stayed at home confined it's against every instinct of a theater maker. To stay at home to not work in space to not communicate with other people one of the great things about theater is that humans talk to each other have a deadline to present something come to agreements and try to create meaning to represent something symbolically with imagination and as a presentation of what might be real or what is what is real like Kara Martin would say the theater of the real and theater always has wrestled with this. I don't know whether it was bright or other what is real what is reality how do we face it how do we change it. And now it's a time where we really think about what we are doing because we can do what we normally do is like fasting where you think about food. And we have had voices from all around the world from Haiti yesterday, he registered junior from Germany from Belgium from Egypt, Lebanon, Hong Kong, Italy, and light goes on and on and all the artists we invited tell us about their situation is very special the way we experiences is one way of experience it but everybody doesn't. We really have to listen to voices of artists, even so I seem to be talking a lot now, but they are the one who are on the right side of justice of social justice of social progress. And we really should listen to them and what they hear what they feel and what they engage in their lives with us we have the great Jalila Bakar from Tunisia welcome Jalila. And she is a great writer in director, she many think she is the leading writer from the Arab world the most significant one on par with us a lot of news, who is no longer with us but whose place we also published like the ones we with Jalila Bakar and so it's a great pleasure and an honor for us to have her with us so again thank you so much translating is Amanda, again, who is a student and a PhD student of literature in the US at Harvard University, who participated in our Caribbean playwright exchange last year so also Amanda welcome and thanks for helping us out. So just to start Jalila, where are you right now what time is it. I'm in Tunisia. I'm at home in my apartment with my husband, my wife and my daughter, and my daughter, and she is 17 hours in Tunisia right now, and I'm in a lot of confinement. I have a full lockdown here in my apartment in Tunis. It's 5pm, and I'm here with my husband, and my daughter, and my dog. What neighborhood in Tunis do you live? Not completely in the downtown but in a neighborhood on the outskirts but very close to the center. How is the situation in Tunis? How is the mood on the street, the atmosphere? I looked up a couple of statistics so that it would be clear for you. So here in Tunis we have 975 cases. 279 have been cured. 17 are on life support. 77 are hospitalized. So 563 approximately are being followed at home. And 40 deaths. We've been on lockdown since around the 19th of March. Since the 20th of March, there's been a curfew. And then from Monday to Friday, that is the 4th of May, we start the lockdown, but step by step. So starting on the 4th of May, they're going to begin to lift the lockdown, but only in stages. So of course in Tunis, like in all the other cities in the country and all the other regions in the country, Tunisians are very worried. It's like all the other cities in the world and all the other places in the world, every man and woman is sort of confronting the virus in some senses in the same way. And this is really where we get back to what is human. I think the anxiety is the same. The questions that we're asking ourselves are the same. Yeah, the worry is the same. And the hope is also the same. The numbers seem relatively low. Do you have a feeling the virus has already arrived or do you think the big wave is still coming? Yeah, do you think there's a wave coming because the numbers don't seem to be measured? Do you think the peak will arrive? After the specialists, there might have been a week, but it didn't happen. There was a week or a dozen days ago, but it didn't happen. But maybe what they're telling us today in the press conference that was given is that there is another wave that could happen. And in this case, we come back to the general lockdown. So it's been about a week, they've been waiting for a peak. According to the specialist, it was supposed to arrive and that hasn't quite happened. But according to the press conference that was given today, there's a possibility that another wave would arrive sometime later. And in that case, they would go back to lockdown. Yesterday, many states in the United States made wearing a mask obligatory. How is the situation on the street? Do people go out during the day? Can they? In France, you have to sign a paper. So how is it in Tunis? Yes, so since yesterday, wearing a mask is mandatory in the United States in some places. And how, at home, in the street, can people go out or how? That is to say, yes, people can go out to go run errands. There are special authorizations for people who work and who have to work. So yes, people can go out and go shopping. There's special authorization for people who need to move about in order to do their jobs. But of course, the lockdown is not the same for everyone. And so it's not the same in every neighborhood. Social inequities have only been made more clear by the situation. That is to say, for everyone, there should be the usual barriers, the barriers, that is to say, staying at one and a half meters from each other, wearing a mask. I know that this has been the case several times a day, but people are afraid. Yes, they try to do it, but when they are forced to go to the post to look for a mandate, it's not always possible. And then, sorry. Everyone knows that they should be respecting the types of precautions to stay two meters apart, to wear a mask, to wash their hands multiple times a day. And so the people who are able to are doing that, however, in many cases, for example, if you have to go to the post office to get a money order and it's absolutely necessary for your survival, there's no way to manage that. And then when you are confined in a villa with a garden or in a large apartment, it's a thing. But when you are confined in, I don't know, 20 square meters or 30 square meters, 3 or 4 or more, it becomes problematic. And then culturally, in some neighborhoods, people live socially, they live more together. That is to say, the neighbors, there are social relationships that are quite different in some neighborhoods. And there, the confinement is very, very, very hard to follow. So of course, it's one thing if you're in a villa with a big garden or in a beautifully aerated apartment. But if you're living in 20 or 30 square meters with three people or four people or more, you know, some of those things are impossible to do. And then in some neighborhoods, the social relationships are very different. So people are more used to living in close proximity and having contact with their neighbors. So it's a very different story there. Jalila, for decades, you have been an artist whose work is socially engaged, politically engaged, but also through your work and play, writing on a wonderful artistic and aesthetic quality. As an artist, how do you experience the moment? I think that this pandemic is like putting the counter zero. So in some neighborhoods, it's like putting the counter zero. It's like putting the counter zero. It's like putting the counter zero. It's as if we put the counters to zero, practically. I think that in front of this terrible anger that touches everyone, we are forced to, we are pushed to rest on essential issues. I feel like the pandemic has sort of turned the dial all the way back to zero. So that in the terrible anxiety in which everyone is living, we're all obliged to start asking ourselves again the really fundamental questions. Everything is brought back into question. The other becomes a little danger. Being separated from loved ones. For about two months I haven't seen any members of my extended family, brothers, nieces, anyone. So we're asking ourselves existential questions about what it means to be human in terms of theater. It's about the future. What is that art going to be in the future? So there's no clear answer to that question. Obviously we're all thinking about it, going around in circles. I cook a lot. I spend a lot of time in the kitchen. And reflection right now is perhaps more important than writing or practice. You talked about essential questions. What questions do you have and are you finding new answers? The question is really about the future of certain arts. Because once you asked me a question about the future of theater. I think that the dance or the theater, the dance is not just a movement. The theater is not just a word or text. It's a core-to-core. And the core-to-core is back in question now. So the questions are really about the future of not only theatrical art but some other arts. Someone once asked me about the future of the theater. And I think that just like dance is not only movement and theater is not only language. Both of them are about body-to-body presence and body-to-body contact. And if that's not possible, what is that going to be? So there are questions also of space and time that are becoming very different. So space, especially in this moment where everyone is stuck in one space. And then time, which is in some cases feeling like it's stretching out. It is going extremely quickly. The question of isolation and existential questions about what it means to be a human being. About the limits of science, these questions that probably everyone is asking themselves. There are also questions about freedom, individual freedom, freedom to circulate. So we're brought to question also individual freedoms, the freedom of movement. For example, borders are closing and even within a same country from region to region, movement is being limited. So the question of individual freedom has also become very important. And then social problems, social problems. For example, in Tunisia, the violence made by women has been multiplied by four or five in recent times. So we can't not be listening to all of this, the economic problems that many people have already lost. Already, Tunisia had a lot of economic problems before the pandemic. But today it becomes very serious. So social problems as well. The rate of violence against women has multiplied by four or five times since this started. So one cannot possibly ignore that and then also economic questions. So Tunisia had quite a difficult economic situation before the pandemic and now with so many people having lost or risking to lose their jobs. That becomes essential as well. In terms of unemployment, there's this moment right now and how we're getting through the pandemic, but the future also risks to be quite difficult in terms of unemployment. All these reflections that we share, I think, and that there are no borders like this pandemic. There are no borders, no sex, no gender, no race, no bank account, no passport color, nothing. So these are the thoughts and the questions that we're dealing with now. Yes, so these are questions that they don't have any borders just like the pandemic. They affect all genders, all creeds, all races, all bank accounts that these types of anxieties with differences. But we're living more or less the same anxieties everywhere right now. Jalila, I think creating theater in Tunisia already has been complicated if I understood right, the uprisings on the street, the political situation. Will this make it more complicated to make theater? If you understand well, it's always been difficult to make theater in Tunisia, there are ups and downs, political ups and downs. So is it going to become even more difficult depending on the current situation? It hasn't been very difficult to make theater. I'm not talking about the quality of theater, but there are a lot of troops and the cultural action is quite interesting in Tunisia. Of course, we lived in 2011 the Tunisian revolution, the beginning of this wave of revolution in the Arab countries that started in Tunisia. We managed to work and there was a rather dense production. It wasn't actually that difficult to make theater in Tunisia. Of course, the quality could vary, but there were lots of troops that were active in a very vibrant cultural scene. And of course in 2011 there was the Tunisian revolution, the beginning of this wave of uprisings of the Arab Spring but which started in Tunisia. However, they were still able to work and get on with it. So of course now making theater seems to be impossible, all cultural spaces are closed and especially it's quite critical as this moment, the beginning of Ramadan and then moving into the summer are the seasons when artists work the most. But there is an impossibility to give representation, so we go out to the summer. If all the spaces are closed there's no possibility of putting anything on, so everyone is unemployed. The 2011 uprising that was the beginning of the Arab Spring, was your theater involved? Was it also close theater like now or were there performances on the street? What happened in 2011? What was the political situation like in 2011? Since 2011, right? In 2011. In 2011, yes, during the first years of course, but not for a long time we closed the theater. We had a room in the city center because there was still a firecracker, but when there was the firecracker we didn't play, but after the theaters were open and we continued to work normally. So the theaters did close but for not very long, only from the period about beginning to middle through the end of January of that year because there was a curfew. Their downtown theater did have to close, but after that everything reopened and then they could go back to work more or less normally. That is to say, the moments we stopped working were when there were terrorist attacks, when we were forced to close for three days when there was a national debt, but we continued to produce. And in our family production company, and then when Fadel Jaibi, my husband, was appointed director of the National Theater, we created two shows for this theater. So the only times that they really had to stop working were when there would be a terrorist attack, and then for two to three days they would close and stop work for the period of national mourning. But after that they would go back to work and they produced several pieces with the family production company, and then when Fadel Jaibi was made director of the National Theater, they then made work through that theater. So the last play that I was in, I was an actress, not the writer. It was a production done by family productions and directed by my daughter, Asya Jaibi, where I was just an actress, not anything else. So really a family production with your husband and your daughter and yourself. But what is interesting, maybe when there was a fire cover, for example during the revolution or even afterwards for some people, it is not the same, it is the fire cover as today, but it does not look like the fire cover before, because the anxiety is not the same. And the fear is not the same. And then before we were able to close the door, stay at home, but we knew that the next day we could get out of trouble. Today it's quite different. And that's why it's a really unprecedented period that we live in. It's interesting that before when there would be a curfew, everyone would stay inside for a few days, but it would happen with the knowledge that one would be able to get out within a day or two, go back to work, things would return to normal. And in this curfew, the situation in a sense is the same, everyone has to stay inside, but there's no, the anxiety and the fear are not at all the same, there's no sense of when things will return. I'm going to come back to the question from Franck earlier, what we had, we continued to work after the revolution, that is to say, we gave representations, but for me, for example, I didn't manage to write a line before more than a year. I wanted to go back to Franck's question about what happened after the revolution and so we continued to put on productions, but for example I was not able to write a single line for about a year. There were artists who managed to follow the moment, that is to say photographers, filmmakers, poets, but for some people, like the theater, they had to take distance to be able to create and be able to present and give their performances. So there were artists who were able to kind of capture and move with the moment, photographers, cinematographers, filmmakers, illustrators, but for other artists, like theater artists, we had to take a step back and let some time pass in order to be able to integrate those events into our art. Today, things are quite different because it's not, we don't know what tomorrow will be like and that's the biggest problem, that is to say, no one can answer to any question. Today things are completely different because nobody knows what tomorrow will be made of, so absolutely no one can respond to any question really, that's the major difference. I don't really have any clear answers, but perhaps it would be best to try to find a new way to communicate a new way to put work out there, but I don't really have any clear sense of what that would be. Did your work, your theater work, change fundamentally after the 2011 revolution? Do you think your theater work will change after Corona? I don't work alone, I work with Favell and mainly, and we have continued to work in the same way, that is to say we work a lot on, we work in the team, we work a lot with the comedians, we work a lot on improvisation and we work on the themes of the Tunisian society, not that we propose the Tunisian society, the aspirations, we do what we call a citizen theater, that is to say we are very, very close to the Tunisian problems, so after the revolution nothing has changed for our way of working. I work with my husband Fadell and with many others and we work a lot with actors, we work with improvisation and we continue working very much in the same way, we consider it to be a citizen theater, so we work on themes that are sort of offered to us by Tunisian society, the fears, the hopes, the realities and so that no, did not change. So we did three productions after the revolution, the first one was produced by Fadell, by Fadell, by Fadell, by Fadell, by Fadell, by Fadell, by Fadell, by Fadell, by Fadell. And so three productions, one under the umbrella of familial and two with the National theater. The first one, which was Tsunami, which was translated and published by you, Frank, I think. Marvin Karlson who did the translation edited the book and also as a great supporter for our talking series we wanted to thank, yes, we published the trilogy of future memory and I think Abil Sherney was a co translator. Okay, so yeah the first one tsunami was the one that chronicled the kind of wave of uprising of that first period. And the second spectacle, it's called violence. So the second one is called violence. And it talks about the rise of violence in the Tunisian society of pre-revolution. So it talks about the rise of violence in post-revolutionary Tunisian society. And the third play now that's very indicative is called fear. So that one is about a group of hikers who get trapped during a sandstorm. Inside of an abandoned hospital and they can't leave, so they're locked in there together. And that one was produced two years ago. An incredible image almost like now we are all in hospitals, a sandstorm is going on and we are on our own. There we are all isolated. For today, there are reflections when I say, but does it make a theater? How are we going to find ourselves on stage? How? Because the theater is not just... There are the relationships between the artists themselves, between the artists and the technicians. But the main relationship is with the audience. If it becomes a virtual art, it doesn't look like a theater anymore. It would become something else. The senses are completely banned from the virtual. The virtual is not the reality. The theater is this relationship. And as I said earlier, the theater is still connected. That's really a question now. If all theater becomes virtual, then the essence of the art is completely gone. Because it's not only the relationship of actors to one another, of actors and technicians, but of course the essential relationship of an actor to a live audience and the body to body presence. And so if that's no longer possible, then that's kind of the end of that particular art. Yeah, it will be interesting what a new trilogy of the future memory might be a couple of years after COVID, if you decide to write it. How is your government supporting artists? How is your production company, Familia, supported? What situation are you in? Yeah, so does the government support you? Do you receive any support from the government for your production company or others? In fact, in Tunisia, since before the revolution, now there are hundreds of independent troops. Well, a hundred really works. There are today 25 dramatic centers all over the country. There is the National Theater. There is the Marionette Theater. And all the troops practically have a help to the production. Let's translate the moment. So this was happening before the revolution and now there are about 100 independent theater companies that are really working throughout the country. There are 25 drama centers throughout the country, a National Theater, a theater of Marionette, and all of them receive some degree of government support. But with some conditions. For the last play that they did, which was directed by Esya, they did not receive any support. The conditions did not exist because there was a percentage between professional artists, that is to say with a professional card and a percentage of artists without professional cards. So we didn't have the quota. I was the only one to be a professional. There were young people who didn't have a card, so we didn't have the help to the production. But it's a show that has worked a lot and has been able to survive and live without the help of the minister. So with that play, there are conditions that have to be met, a kind of quota of what percentage of the cast are professional artists with a specific validation card, an equity card, I would imagine. And so in this one it was a lot of young, up and coming artists, and she was actually the only one to have a professional card. So they did not receive any government support, but because the play was very well received and people were interested in it, it was able to survive and have a life without that support. Will you get additional support now during Corona for your company from the government? Are you going to receive additional support because of the situation? There is a new minister because in fact we have the new Tunisian government has started to work practically a week before the beginning of the pandemic. So it's really, there's not a lot of luck with this new government. The new Tunisian government started work about one week before the pandemic. So they've got a new minister, but you don't have much luck with that new government. The new minister, it's a woman, the new minister has promised help to artists in general and to companies that are in trouble. So the new minister, a woman, has promised aid to artists of all types and to companies that are in difficulty. Julia, you have followed history over decades in Tunisia and you are an artist. What do you think about the history and theater in general? How does it fit together? History and theater? Yes, so it's been years that you have followed not only the news but also the history of the country. How do you think the history and theater are linked? I think theater and art in general, of course, we say that culture, art, we don't use the words IWX of humanity but without the culture, art, the human being has created them to try to pass this anxiety in the face of the question that is asked today with an incredible quote, it's the questions in the face of death. So people often like to say that culture and arts don't cure the ills of society but I think that theater and art in general can help move through what happens. And the question that is being posed today most acutely is that of death. So theater, at least I think theater more than all the other arts creates a space of freedom, a space of freedom from authority, from multiple authorities and that can work against all those who wish to lock the human up in a fixed cage. We worked before the revolution, we had an opponent, it was the regime, we worked against this regime. We tried to express the aspirations, the doubts, the forces and weaknesses of the Tunisian citizens. We continued after the revolution and I think we will try, I hope, at least in terms of writing for the moment. Before the revolution, we worked against the regime and our idea was to transmit the hopes and the doubts, the strengths and the weaknesses of the Tunisian citizens and we continued to do so after the revolution and I hope that we will continue to do that after this, at least through writing for me. The theater was in Tunisia, another company but other companies too, very influential in terms of free thought in Tunisia. There are four or three groups that have done a lot for this freedom of expression before the revolution and there are some who continue to work, there is another generation that shows up. So our company and several other four or five other companies that were quite influential before the revolution in working for this freedom of expression and we continue to do so after the revolution and there are companies still working now in a younger generation that's coming up, that's working in the same direction. There are many taboo subjects. When we have, us and the others, when we have addressed the problem of religion, religious extremism, already, of homosexuality, of the press, of social schizophrenia, so these subjects that were addressed before the revolution, which were subjects that were not addressed in taboo subjects, and then we continued with the words, with the words MOTS, to decrypt and try to raise everything that makes specificity, good or bad, positive or negative, Tunisian. So there were lots of taboo subjects that we talked about before the revolution, religious extremism, homosexuality, freedom of expression, freedom of the press, so lots of subjects that other people weren't talking about. And so we continued to do that now when we're using our words to address the ills that are happening now after the revolution and trying to do as best we can to really get at the specificity of the reality of the Tunisian experience. Jalila, do you think people will again go on the street and demand change or has change happened? Do you think people will go on the street and demand a change or has change already happened? A political change? Yes, if there are economic difficulties, if there is an economic crisis. I think people don't know what will happen tomorrow with all these problems, how the government will come out, but I think that if there is a problem and if the problems become very serious, more serious than they are, yes, I think there could be problems. So if things get worse, if there are economic difficulties that become severe or problems that get much worse than there are now, we don't really know what tomorrow is going to look like and how the government will react. But yes, if things get very, very bad, there will probably be riots. But I think that if the world, because there it's really not a problem, it's not regional problems or it's the whole world. Yes, because with Tunisia, we have a civil war in Libya which is just at our borders. There are wars that are still going on. If there is not a continue to think about the society individually with a form of closure, if at the geopolitical level it's the most ancient countries, we see what happened in Italy, for example, and the help that wasn't even done in Europe in Italy, what happened in Italy, we don't know what geopolitical is a question, we don't know what all of this will be. So this is not just a regional moment that we're living, it's a worldwide moment. And in Tunisia there are civil wars going on in Libya that are right at the border, there's wars going on elsewhere. If aid from countries with more resources doesn't arrive, we had the chance to see how even in Europe what happened in Italy where not enough aid was able to be provided. If that happens in our areas, we really don't know what's going to happen. I think that if we try to, despite this pandemic or maybe thanks to this pandemic, if we don't try to reinvent the human relationship, if there is no will to open up on the cultures of the world, on the other, even if we don't go to the other, if we don't try, if we don't keep good so that this pandemic is not the pretext of lifting other walls, of closing other borders, we have to resist all of this, not only at the regional level, but also at the international level. So there are risks if we don't use the pandemic as a way of opening up our relationship to the other, of trying to see and go toward other cultures, if it becomes the pretext for raising more walls and closing more borders, then the situation could become much, much worse. Because this pandemic, what does it give us? The first cases, we arrived in France, Italy, Egypt and Turkey. So what does the pandemic show us? Here, our first cases, they arrived from France, from Italy, from Egypt, from Turkey. So no one is safe. So that's the lesson that we have to take away from this, if we're going to save everyone living on Earth, is that it's not just a matter of a single region or a single place, it's all of us. Yeah, like music in a way, also a virus doesn't care about borders and lines. Jalila, are you able to write at all? How do you spend your day? Do you do work? How do you spend your day? Do you do work? In fact, I can't concentrate on specific things, so I'm like bees, butchers. But I have trouble concentrating on specific things, so I'm like a bumblebee, I kind of flip between different ones. My brain is working terribly. So you are not writing? Little things, thoughts. We are getting also slightly closer to the end of our talk to our listeners who listen in, but also young artists, artists in general, what advice would you give them from your experience having lived through so much with Tunisian history and experiencing the moment of enclosure now? What is your advice, what to do? Well, as I said earlier, this pandemic really puts the pendulums back on. We have a lot of young artists, young artists, young artists, young artists, young artists. So like I said before, the pandemic has really brought the dial back to zero and has showed us how fragile we all fundamentally are. So during the times of crisis, the will of life, like our great Tunisian poet who wrote a poem, about a glass that exists in Tunisian national anthem, the will of life is so, if it is important, we break all obstacles. So in a moment of crisis, the most important is this instinct to life. And so there are two lines from one of Tunisia's greatest poets that they're in the national anthem, which is that the will to life, overall, the will to life breaks any obstacle. Resist, resist, love, hope, and continue to dream. Well, thank you, Jolida. This is a truly meaningful and something to be taken very serious when she says you should resist. You should dream and you should go on with your work. So really take that all serious, I think this is from someone who knows. It is serious and good advice. And thank you, Jolida, for joining us. Merci beaucoup. Merci à vous, très heureuse d'avoir été avec vous et d'avoir donné cette occasion de communiquer et de dire, de parler de Tunis et de la Tunisie. Very happy to be here. Thank you for giving me this opportunity to talk with you and to speak and to talk about Tunis and Tunisia. Yeah, it is very important. The theater country was a long history, great theater scene, and it's important that we hear from Tunisia. Your work is very important, Jolida. We admire you and what you have done over decades with a family production with your family. And it is truly a model. Hans-Tis Lehmann said theater is a house and it has many rooms. And one of those rooms is the Jalila Bakar family family room and it's something that we all should visit more and also we should know more about. Tomorrow we will have Peter Sellers, the great American director with us who will speak with us about what is on his mind. I think this will be also a significant contribution like today or like yesterday from Haiti, Bremeni protocol on Monday and from Germany, the updates from around the world. We all affected this virus, connects us all. And on Friday we have Oscar Eustis who runs the public theater in New York City talking with Tony Torn who runs the small, the great actor, small, small theater for 20, 30 people out of his living home from his father. So we will go on the next year here from Argentina and many, many other places. So thank you all for listening. We need great theater. So many great, great audiences listening and makes us think that there are good audiences out there and the work of Jalila is significant and thank you for listening to her and what she had to say. Amanda, wonderful translation. I know that is not easy. That was wonderfully done. My pleasure. Thank you. Thank you. And join us all again. Thanks to howl around at Emerson College for hosting us each day now for four or five weeks. I know it's a big thing you took on additionally, so to a VJ and Thea, Travis, the Seedle team, everybody, thank you very much. And I hope we will hear from you tomorrow. So goodbye and Jalila, stay safe. Hope to see you in New York again when we come and visit you. Bye-bye. Thank you. Goodbye. Oh, wait.