 Welcome, everybody back here to Segal Talks at the Markney Segal Theater Center, the great center CUNY in Midtown, Manhattan, where the sun at the moment is shining and the leaves are coming out and the magnolia trees and the cherry trees are on bloom in Park Avenue and but still we are in a wave and it's still in the middle of our COVID crisis and we are still wondering so deeply what is happening to our field, the field of the performing arts, theaters, also music, we had to get some with Andrew's here was music and we have to really look forward but in order to do that, to understand where we are, where we are going, we also need to look at what has happened and today we have two speakers with us who have a lot of experience who have watched and have been part of what New York makes New York, of the scene of the cultural scene of the arts and two creators, presenters and we have the Segal and the idea of a Joseph Boyce who says they are curators, artists in themselves, they collage things, they make things possible, they invited artists and they have done so in a way I think they are a role model and they have been pioneers in the field and there's a lot to learn from them and I cannot wait to hear also how they see the situation at the moment will happen but also what should happen and I know that for all of us the time of Corona has been a time of looking inward understanding better who we are but also about the place where we live, the country, the city and we all know things have to change it's time for a change maybe it already has changed but we need to understand that we are so close and conversations like this small contribution but also a big one they change us while we do this but also you listen to it and it's like traveling it changes us bit by bit and become different because of it and I'm really honored to have with us today Rachel Cooper and a little bit of this case so first of all welcome both of you and thank you for taking the time I say a few words about them because as often arts organizers, arts presenters are a bit more in the background than the artists for us we see that in the same level of deep engagement they are all both women in the field often also not as much I think in the spotlight as it should be but they have been part of a change in that and they're so highly, highly respected in the field nationally and internationally so it's great to have them with us so about Rachel Rachel Cooper is a great and extensive experience in traditional but also contemporary Asian and Asian American performing arts and she has been at the very center of the development and the presentation and the understanding of it and also what art what functions in the society we are and she has presented and commissioned over 800 close to a thousand performances in the Asia society and I really would like to take that also and this is a real body of experience but not only in the Asia society where she works but across the US and she has worked with international artists from Indonesia, Iran, Cambodia India, Pakistan, Philippines Japan, China, Taiwan and many, many others and it has been also inspiration for us for the Segal talk to state global and all the artists who we present and Rachel also has followed our work and also has suggested that the presence of these artists is there and reminded us and also helped us and connected us so we would like to thank her for that she is a frequent participant major conferences and a commentator on the media addressing international arts exchange and culture as diplomacy, her passion is sharing artists voices with audiences broadly and to facilitate artist meetings at a global level she co-directed this very, very significant initiative of Muslim voices, arts and ideas festival with BEM and the Asia society and the Asia society's greatest voices and Muslim Asia initiative so we can see this is a pioneering work what she did here I don't know of any organization that dealt so deep in it like SEALs as they say in the ocean sometimes they go so very deep and we do not know but she did that and it's we are better for it we lived in Indonesia in the 80s and there she organized of course festivals and performances she's a co-founder and former director of the San Francisco base Balinese music and dance company Yamilan Sekar Jaya and she has been presenting the arts of Bali especially in the United States for a very, very long time and a little bit of Hayes who is like Rachel also part of the landscape one of the formations you know you would be in any place in Europe and you see mountains and cities and rivers so both of them would be part of the mountains and rivers of that great, great landscape here in New York City where we are makes New York who we are she was based in Paris internationally in arts management production and programming for 30 years and Alivebus has been very kind and gentle with us she hasn't listed all of it but it is significant it's major and she worked with Giorgio Straila the great great Giorgio Straila many see him as well the greatest theater artist ever at the Piccolo in Italy she worked with Peter Bruch she has brought Ariane Nuschkin over also is a close a collaborator with her she worked with John Cage Daniel Baron in dance with Merce Cunningham Carolyn Carlson and Pina Bausch in names that are part of the Olympia in a way of our field and she has worked with great institution like the Opera National de Paris Teatro La Finiche Theatre de Jean-Zelizé and the Festival Balback Berlin Festival and it is just a stunning engagement over decades she also worked with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra for 13 years and then she was the executive director of a very significant foundation that is also at the very heart of what we do here the FAST of FACE FAC Foundation in New York City that really encourages, promotes and truly supports on a grand scale an international exchange of arts science of ideas and keeps that historic centuries-long connection between France and especially America North America the US alive now she is working on several projects with a number of European theatres especially as they are involved in Palermo in Italy is beyond the interview with us when we had theatre artists from Palermo and with us so I apologize for making this so long but it is important to know what they say carries weight and so both of you thank you thank you for coming where are you now are you where in the world are you are you traveling are you in New York I'm here in New York the there's a bit of an administrative delay for my work reason for Italy so I've been working with the theatre beyond the Palermo primarily with them remote from New York so New York City and probably not so very far from where you are Rachel and I'm physically in New York and mentally in Asia that says it beautifully so how are you both in these days in this time of corona Rachel shall you go first or shall I you go first okay well I'm doing well because we all have to do as well as we can and we must keep hope and we know that at some point we're going to get to the end of this story the end of this saga the end of this whatever one chooses to call it and you know you can choose to be hopeful or be desperate and there have been moments of both but for the moment I'm feeling positive and hopeful I think I like many other people I believe I didn't expect that it might go on so long with this degree of intensity and unknown but here we are you know you have to deal you have to play with the cards that you've been dealt and not not the ones that you would have wished you have had and I think from my standpoint it's it's been a real time of reflection and interestingly because of you know the fact that my office and my living room were one and the same the time zone differences are experienced a little differently so I can talk to people in Asia at any time and and one of the things that has been really interesting is the connection with my colleagues and friends in a variety of different countries and it's whether it's with WhatsApp or Zoom the ability to connect with each other and the hunger for people to connect across regions is really palpable and that's something I feel and I also feel like new stories are emerging that's coming out of this period because we're in Corona because we're in a moment of isolation and there's a hunger for figuring out which connections are the ones that are essential well said yeah you know Frank if I may add I believe you know I'm rather a fan of Seagull Talks so I've heard one or two people but I think it was one of the earlier ones could it have been Carl Hancock Rooks who said what I think a lot of us are thinking when the pandemic does indeed end and activity and we are feeling more free and safe to be in active circumstances once again and I cringe at the word going back or going back to normal I don't think we're going back to normal but wasn't it Carl Hancock Rooks who said you know if people are wanting to go back to normal if that's what is the priority in people's minds maybe we will have missed the lesson completely missed the boat and I think that reiterates what Rachel said this is a time when we can be silent and listen and and reexamine usually everyone is just so busy and so active and doing things all the time there isn't there's I have to call it opportunity because it is one what do you both think of the moment how concerned are you Rachel I think I think we're at a I hate to say pivot point since that's become one of those trendy words but in fact there is some kind of a continuity that has to do with the coming together of this moment and COVID-19 just amplified it but the fact that there's the kind of climate change that's very real that we are with right now the fact that the kind of racism and and systemic problems societal problems are having the kind of racism and systemic problems that have a real light shine shown on them that I think is not only it is America and it is our history but it is not only in America we're talking about massive systemic inequalities that are across the globe we're talking about migration in you know 100 million people who are trying to find home or move around so the questioning of what is a nation state and what is our nationality and what is our culture comes to the fore that was a long winded one but anyway no no no but it's perfect and if I may add and Rachel and I had a brief conversation yesterday or this morning you know if ever if ever a fact COVID-19 made us all instantly understand that we're all interconnected interdependent I think and we I've many many people Rachel certainly thinks that that's the case for climate change but perhaps there were more people who didn't want to or who are not admitting that and we also spoke briefly this morning the result of the court case in Minneapolis for George Floyd that also I think is the moment is the moment that's brought us all together and we realize to what extent we are all so interconnected and the racism in this country that is just you know has jumped out in such a way that is not to be denied and was there but was perhaps denied in the past and I was interested to see and Rachel I'm sure you saw this in the part of the world that you're talking about yesterday was the headline in the French the German the Italian the newspapers and so forth we're so there's the COVID situation I think has brought to the for so dramatically a point that we should have been aware of you know so much earlier how we are so interconnected in everything we do I think jumping into what I feel is that there are many new stories and new ways of telling stories that are being explored and the the new technology has foregrounded some of that so we have some very young phenomenal storytellers who are working in music theater poetry and we have an intergenerational kind of meeting ground that's quite interesting and if there's anything if I do say so I think we need to really support it's the telling of history it's how we understand history beyond you know those old textbooks need to be jettisoned indeed and another thing that I've been struck by and it has to do with a couple of projects I'm working on and many other projects that I've been sort of witnessing and listening to is this period where there's an opportunity to listen I'm so interested by some of these projects that are working on the basis of small individual increments but when you look at the entirety of it it's extraordinary and just a fantastic New York City so I think it's a great opportunity to listen to and I think that's a great example Frank you spoke the other day with John Glover who's with the Kaufman Music Center and since late January they've been doing these pop up concerts that are called musical storefront performances in a storefront but it's not pre-announced but simply people hear sound in your music and are drawn to that location and a crowd of 10, 15, 50 or 100 people may gather for a performance of about 40 minutes and then there's a break and it begins again and then there's a second round at 4 p.m. 5 p.m. 6 p.m. each individual performance may be 40 minutes it may be 40 minutes it may be 30 minutes but this is something that people spontaneously no one knows it still it's still happen but if you look at this together I think John told you Frank that over the period because they're going on until late April I think that there have been first of all all of the artists are engaged and paid and they're paid a decent fee I don't know what the numbers are 170 artists and there've been thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of people who've gathered and every single performer has said. I can't tell you how exciting or how moving it is to perform live for live people and spontaneously the people who gather talk to one again one another they make you know films the little children go right up to the window like but the spontaneity of it the joy of attending a performance but again small increments but look at what this is in the accumulation of the period of time since they've been doing it food for thought. Close close to 20,000 people I think number say would normally average. Also, do you think this will be a radical moment of presenting in a different way. Will will the lessons or what we want to think about will that be implemented. I think it's going to be plus plus and you know there are all kinds of concerns which are budgetary financial safety travel. The idea of simply import export, and you know there is the whole factor of climate change and carbon carbon imprint. I think that this possibility of online performance has opened up new windows that obviously can include greater numbers of people and people in many different geographical locations. I think that live performance will always be live performance and that's absolutely unique, but I think and certainly hope that lots of people are taking advantage of this possibility in terms of imagination and programming to you know expand the the ideas of how work can be presented in the future live performance Rachel I'm sure you will express yourself much better than I just did along the. Oh that was great. That was very, very well put and I would just add to it. I think there are changes that we're not even aware of. And some of those changes are kind of high. There's a combination of live in person people to people, as well as interactive work that is going on through the Internet. And, and I think it's a mixture. And I also think that people are finding ways to do storytelling that brings in the audience. And in some ways we already were seeing that with with some of the storytelling platforms that have become so popular over the last 10 years, whether you're talking about TEDx or or you're talking about the mall. You're also talking about the way that we craft narrative. And we're talking about the ways that it empowers people to tell their own narratives. And the place that I think there will be a big change and I'm very happy about is within the idea of international. I mean I think it's very important that you support local artists, but I don't think that precludes the kind of international exchange that is crucial to having what I think is a real civil society. And, and we now have some of the mechanisms to do that. And what I would hope is that when we think about the ethics of that that that includes a new way of thinking about gatekeepers, and maybe that bonds to what you were saying, Elizabeth in some ways presenters have been a certain kind of gatekeeper and this is what we think our audience will like. And, and I haven't experienced years ago with the Festival of Indonesia, which was Indonesian artists really defining what they wanted to share, not the bureaucrats, the artists. And it really changed the way I thought about international interaction and how we bring artists to share with each other. Really, I mean we're facilitators. Absolutely. I see myself as the person in the wings. And really, the artists and the work absolute priority start to finish. Absolutely. If I may give another example because I think it's an interesting example of, of a, of a project, and also in terms of using technology and the whole thing about how geography is, and travel is so restricted. I am delighted to be able to be working with Pamela Villorese who was named director of the Teath of Biondo and Palermo. And Frank, as you mentioned, you interviewed her and the extraordinary mayor of the city of Palermo, Leuka Orlando a few months back, and we are working with Irina Brooke on a project which is called the House of Us. And it has been over a period of time and pre-COVID as well. A phenomena of young people who become, I think the pathology would be internet addicts and they, you know, isolate themselves from society. And in extreme cases communicate exclusively through social media and they literally don't need their rooms and their houses. In Japan there's a word for it, which is called hikikomori, which I learned as I began to work on this project. So the project is the following. Irina was, was alarmed but fascinated by this idea. And she spent a little bit of time in Japan and she is working with us in Palermo for the first iteration of House of Us, which will go on to be developed in other theaters and other cities. And what it involves is her working online digitally, spending time one-on-one with young people. Now, in fact, she is working with a few young people in Palermo who are past cases of hikikomori and one young man who is involved in the pathology of hikikomori. But mostly she's working with the brilliant young students of the school of the Teatro Biondo, who by the circumstances of COVID and lockdown, they themselves involuntarily found themselves isolated from one another and from the world during the period of time in various countries where there was lockdown. So she was able to maintain her work digitally and she will come now, come to Palermo in late May. So one by one, she is working with individuals and these young people are telling, Rachel, here's your point, telling their stories of how they experienced this period of lockdown and she's interested in making and has been making short films, short video films. And in fact, this will eventually develop into a kind of presentation to the public, but let's not call it a production or a public performance, where the public is able to enter into a space and there will be screens and it will be, you know, they will move around. Well, but this is the first chapter, Palermo laboratory. And then she is working also this is a co-production initially she's working with the Teatro La Pergola in Florence, and she has just been named residence director from the, for the Teatro Stabile in Veneto in Venice area which is three theaters, but this, this may go on for several years and in each place she will be working. So this is about individual stories that are to be perceived and heard individually but then gradually things are woven together in each place. So again, forgive me, long story long. She's the daughter of Peter Brooke, right? She's a family business. Rachel, you are monitoring the Asian scene so closely and we also had many of them, actually we're going to have Milati, so you're dharma with us as in tomorrow from Indonesia, but what do you see in a what are ideas, what can we learn from examples? Like Elizabeth just shared. Well, I'm excited that you have Milati for your dharma. So let me just say that that's an artist I have worked with and I'm a big fan of her work and vision and she's the kind of artist who really transcends boundaries. So I'm, I'm excited that you're, you're presenting her. She's part of our triennial. We have a triennial of Asian art at the age of society title, we don't dream alone. And interestingly her piece is about dreaming, so it's quite different. And so I have to make the plug, you know, for, for some of the course, the exhibition, which is up through June, which is all contemporary work, and some new performance pieces with Samita Sinha and Susie Ibarra. But you asked specifically about, about some of the things that I'm seeing in Asia. And it's really tough. I was on the phone earlier with artists. And they're in full lockdown right now. And some of the new work that people were creating has had to take a halt temporarily. And, you know, a lot of places that where you can't have the audiences there and they're not about technology. That said, I see a lot of artists who are connecting across the region. And I would be remiss if I don't bring up one of the most both horrendous and creative moments in history and I don't think they're very well known. What's going on in Burma, Myanmar, right now, the coup that started on February. If you are tracking this, you see that artists have been making work incredible amount of work and the internet is set down now. And the protests in themselves are our kind of theater, you know, every day there's another kind. So on Easter that was like everyone puts eggs out on another day it's everyone is paint your shoes and put red shoes out, you know, in a very violent way. The collective response is actually incredibly creative. And a lot of young people are saying things like you, you selected the wrong generation to monkey around with. And so I just, I keep thinking about that because whether it's hip hop artists performance artists in that particular situation which is so dire. The response is creative on so many levels. So it's, it's interesting, you know, you have a generation of artists and you have collective I was talking with Malachi yesterday about the fact that there is a collective of contemporary artists around the world who are coming together in support of the artists and people who are coming together. So, you know, how people are making their artistic efforts beyond productions is really interesting. And, and I think important to track. I may I'd love to ask Rachel a question, because she's had so much experience in an area that I have not at all and I'm not talking about geography. During the course of my work and continue to do so. I have had the great good fortune of working with composers choreographers and so, but mostly people creating new work. And I love that. And that's also the case of Rachel, you mentioned the extraordinary number of commissions. The other thing that Rachel has been so involved in that I'm fascinated with is, she is so expert and she has also presented parallel traditional work. And I'm so struck now by how relevant from a contemporary point of view how relevant traditional work is as well. And I would love it Rachel if you could just speak about that a little bit because you spoke about history how history is told. And you have so much experience in this in terms of the performing arts could you, could you speak about that. I have a question Elizabeth, you know, there's a kind of false binary of this is contemporary and this is traditional and traditional is therefore old, and you would respond to it in X way, and it's, it's always done this way. You know, I think about le gong in in Bali and someone will say this timeless piece of art has been done for eons and Bali. However, I'm a dance ethnologist that that piece was created in, you know, the late 1800s and the way it's being done now was in 1930s and updates, you know, continue. So it's not like things are are stuck in stone, especially if you're in the live arts. We're not talking about a statue that we discovered. It's not to say we aren't inspired by it. But there, there's amazing art making going on that's come out of different cultures that that is really profoundly moving. And when people wanted to share it, not all things are meant to be shared but some of them, people do want to share and are ways that by presenting it in outside of its own culture, you actually can be part of helping to because that appreciation can can enhance it in its own situation. So I have, we brought a group from North Sumatra of Baka Toba musicians, and the governor said why are you bringing this we need MPV, beautiful women. We presented it was a huge hit in America when they went back, the governor said, I never realized this was art, you know, I have the same thing in in Burma. And they said, Have you looked, have you heard how amazing this music is. They said, Our music, we should be doing hip hop. I said, Everyone has hip hop. Nobody has a sign line. Nobody has this. Listen, and it, and so there's an interesting global moment where those things that are that are shared. And again, I, you know, it has to do with the transparency and the people who are, are owners of those traditions wanting to do that, but being able to share that and share it as part of our living culture of today. Not, not, not, this is traditional and this is, this is contemporary. Not that there isn't some hybrid moment, but but that's the beauty of live arts. Because they're living in the moment, and they're always being reinvented, even, even ancient traditions are being reinvented in a live moment. Thank you marvelous. Yeah, yeah, this is quite a significant in this moment of contemporary art where we live in this hybrids that we experienced that we don't see also any tradition, you know, follow a very beautiful traditional art and a very highly conceptual modern art piece that it collaborates and and that it informs each other and that you know, even the project of modernity, you know, was part of a tradition and an adaptation of a tradition when a new technology that came in and all of a sudden something changed which we experiencing now at the moment and it's important that you know, in the region of Asia, United Nations, let's even I think Turkey is a Western Asia, I think Israel, I mean you presented work from the course on region in Iran, you know, all of these what we do not know enough it's shocking how little we know. Why do both of you is a question and I mean it in a serious way and we often talk about it second for granted artists important has impact but what impact has it really have what impact really have and why is it important and you've been in the field so like an honest answer what why is that why do we need it. First of all, I think so many of the troubles in the world stem from ignorance meet lack of well let's from on the scale of lack of familiarity to ignorance as you've just said, I think. Hopefully, we all want to be better people day by day. And I think the performing arts in all of their shapes and sizes and forms and from everywhere in the world. I think they help us be better people and and open our eyes to our own personal experience, and the more narrow the path that we follow I think the more narrow will be our minds and our hearts. And the, I think, wasn't it Olga Garay who said just the other day, you know the lack of festivals in this country and because of the lockdown and and so forth and so on and she, she spoke to that for a minute. I think it's absolutely critical that we could citizens of the world. And how can we do that if we are not if we don't maintain our curiosity, and to whatever extent we can our familiarity with with others and the work of others around the world. Yeah, I, I think, um, I think we sometimes think that it's, we buy in, we, I don't know which we we mean, but, but sometimes those of us working in the arts, unconsciously buy into this idea that that we are, we are the entertainment side, or we're there to infuse knowledge or wisdom, you know, it has some very sometimes narrowing ways of being understood so I thought I'd give a couple of concrete examples that I've, I've very in terms of that impact. So one is when we had with Zeba Rahman, I worked on a, a project that was that brought Sufi musicians to New York City, with a UN ambassador ambassador the same. And we brought the superstar, the great Sufi master of the Parveen, and she performed in Union Square this was after that attempted bomber in Times Square. And this was okay, we have a different side of Pakistan that we want to share with you. So we did this we had about 5000 people. The next day, or maybe it was a couple weeks later there was there was a huge flood in Pakistan. And I got and we were doing fundraisers and I got an email from someone I didn't know who said, I want to tell you that I have just donated to this cause. Why? Because I never cared about Pakistan, I cared about India because I knew Ravi Shankar that. But after I heard of the Parveen, it humanized it made Pakistan a place that I cared about. And then when something happened to that place, I wanted to donate and I needed to tell you story number one story number two is when I was in Iran with the Vice President of Iran. And the first I was there twice. And the first time he said, you know, why are you here? Our countries don't like each other. I said, well, because I work in music. And our countries yell at each other. You know, we throw didactic pronouncements, but we don't listen. I said I'm music. It's all about listening. And Iranians can be very philosophical so he nodded. I went back the next year. And he said, I've been thinking about this for a year. And I've decided Islam can accept music. And I'd like to know, you know how we can help. We want more better understanding. And could we do something using traditional lullabies. Now here's somebody who's in government who's trying to find a way in and music provided something that could be neutral. And the third thing I'll say briefly had to do with the military. I was asked to give a talk to the military, the Defense University to people, soldiers, high level soldiers who are about to go to Pakistan and Afghanistan. And my entire talk was about, what are you going to talk about after you're negotiating a deal. The arts are not about a deal, it's about understanding the culture and some appreciation. And again, it was one of those situations where it's the following year somebody came up and said, thank you for for pushing me to understand the culture better. I had a different set of relationships, because I could have different kinds of conversations. So those are, those are the examples. Brilliant. Absolutely. They're, you know, each one is, it was a static I suppose, but I think we multiply it by millions. Exactly. Exactly. And you know, as a New Yorker and Frank, you're certainly aware of this when I was working those years with face foundation, which is an American nonprofit with a partnership an official partnership with French cultural services. So do you think how many people in the arts in this town and in the country are aware of French cultural services, quite a few, because I think France has really understand that cultural diplomacy is real. It is a real tool. And Rachel has been working with this forever I consider it something that's absolutely vital. You can't find the words to say things there can still be music and dance and performance the live arts living you know the performing arts live performing arts are critical for that. Yeah. You know what's interesting. No, it's interesting in in Sicily with the extraordinary work that Pamela Villores is doing at the beyond though. She very much is making a point also of working with Sicilian artists, and there is such a wealth of artists, musical and so forth, some traditional and many contemporary. So that again this model we referred to. Well model, there's the, the idea that we referred to earlier as you know presenting in the past having often been based on things simply being x in imported from elsewhere. I think it's going to be interesting as we all move forward to, to, to see how the involvement of the community, not simply in terms of giving lip service, but really activating, you know, finding creating valid relationships and activating relationships within the, within the communities and I think extraordinary things can come up that slightly sidebar but not too far. No, no, no, that is true. That's important. And I think it is interesting that is up in music, which is something that does in a way truly united and perhaps also is a way I think it do ugly from France said, you know, I don't write my place for people who already are, you know, I mean, for those people who don't, this is what I'm fighting for. And he said the problem is with this, I'll engage that give my hammers home a point there was there's no I care about the people who don't like me, maybe, you know, do something and someone said about the New York Times that people some replay the business section on the style style section some will read you know the metro section but not they don't read everything but everybody looks at the art pages. So what's in there is magnifying, you know, for a country to be represented also you know it's it is something. So a question to both of you and perhaps even a bit more to Rachel, because of the violence against Asians, and Asian Americans which we are experiencing. You have presented global international work we talked about racism before did you encounter in your work in facilitating and executing you know they did. Did you experience more where you said you know this would be an American artist or British that wouldn't have happened is there is there something in American culture that pace perhaps more lip serving medical service or is it an open system that actually says yes we need that. Rachel definitely go first. I think we have been doing more international exchange at various levels, then is shared with the overall society in the US, number one. So I want to say that that informal sector has been really important. Every country has different communities, and often they will bring in artists from from countries from that they have their, their roots in, and they won't go to the, the other other parts of the country, well that is also a part of American culture. But I think that's not always understood. I mean these these new demographic quote unquote new demographics. This is new. This, this has been a part of one part of the society and it's not very well told as a narrative of the country. I think that's, that's really true and one place where I do think you start to see it, going way back is in jazz. That's been an important part of this country coming out of blues and gospel and African tradition, going back hundreds of years, but but really it, you know over the last hundred years and becoming a form that came out of African American culture, and then became something that was shared more broadly and so you have Asian American musicians who are very involved with jazz and also great allies in, in various activism and coalition. And that that really goes back a very long time so I think I think there are aspects of the culture and what we say is American culture. That is, that is narrow, doesn't it doesn't really reflect the interesting and broad slab of, of who are American. Elizabeth. Excellent. You know, I don't think I have anything really terribly valid to add to that because my perspective is a little bit different because when I moved to France. I wasn't involved specifically with an American community or American, you know, specifically an American identity. I did have the delight the honor and the, and the great good luck to work with Merce Cunningham and John Cage and Paul Taylor and then Carolyn Carlson over the years. I think what's interesting to look at is the situation here now. And again, Frank, maybe this is not exactly target to your question. What a I'm alarmed about a number of things which is the survival of institutions here because of the extraordinarily catastrophic financial situation. Obviously, the, the well being of individual artists who have remained without work for so long. And I, again, referring to what Olga Garai said the other day, there is a lack of ongoing presentation of international work in this country, which is quite radically different from what happens in Europe where there are festivals and festival seasons and even without that it's so easy. There has been in the past so easy to travel from one place to another. So, a, the importance of how the, the world of digital presentation can be developed, so that it be something which is not just technical get but can have a value artistically. And then we will see in the next year or two or three I think it's going to take some time, how live performances can take place and how international exchange can take place once again. Again, in Palermo, what we're working on now it's more a question of one or two artists coming and working on a workshop basis, pause workshop pause and the development of a piece, rather than the idea of spotting a terrific production of which, you know, I hope once again there will be obviously there will be many and importing. So, again, Frank apology, if that's not exactly responding to your question but it's a point that that's very much in the forefront of my mind now. And I'd like to continue with that thought Elizabeth, because I think this idea of what we mean by international. And, and again referencing Olga's conversation because he talked about la red, which was a network. I think she said originally funded by Rockefeller was it. Okay, funded by. By one of the two biggies. I'm sure who are by the way not doing this work in the same way at the moment. That's a whole other conversation. However, what I think is crucial about that is that gave voice to people in the region able to represent themselves and to think about that as a part of a network. So as we go forward and we're looking at new models, this side of networks, and, and how, how the conversations developed so that they're less, they're less narrow. You know, I like you, let me sign a contract, and some big questions that can be discussed on a regional level is an exciting potential I think. You know, for example, I mean this hasn't really worked. There was an Asian arts network for a long time. You're really focused on contemporary work there was one out of Hong Kong, as well, and the Cambodian living arts group. I think it might be something you want to consider having on your program. That idea of, of connecting across the region. And then, and then being able to have a conversation with a number of people within the region. It's like being multinational, you know, multilateral. I think that we are at an exciting time where we can look at new new new system, and this could be it doesn't have to be regional. It can be on a on a topic like land use, or, or water. You know, Frank, if I may add, and again, it's more parallel than directly related to what Rachel just added. I thought it was so interesting when you had very recently Petya. Who's the artistic administrator at Brzeznikov arts center and also tip it rise, and he spoke about the entirety of the experience of a performance in other words, if we're talking about a live performance when you walk in the building. When you, you know, your first encounter maybe with the ticket window or it may be with the usher and the entirety of experience from beginning to end influences each of us. I was but say not just not just the performance when the house lights dim and the performance takes place and there's applause and the house lights go up again. And I think it is interesting and not too many people perhaps are doing this, but I think it's interesting, the institutions and the individuals who are presenting work online, when there is thought given to every aspect of it. And particularly there in, there are a few musical organization where there's real thought being given to the visual aspect of presenting musical performance and be a C certainly is one of the terrific examples and the orchestra of St. St. Stations had several concerts recently that they called sounds and stories. And again, like BAC they work with the lighting designer and so forth so that visually it was a striking, striking performance. I think the, the times, the time span of a performance in terms of the have an individual ones concentration can be so different from when we're sitting in a space with others sharing a performance. So it's important to be for any of us who are involved in presenting to be very aware of that as well. Yeah, that is interesting things that do emerge is that the network is important. Developing something locally instead of only flying, you know, the companies, small, small engagements, but also thinking in multilateral as racially in regions and structures and in, in global connections and we all know that they fight against racism, violence against women, homophobia, all that. They are global problems like climate change, you know, it cannot be done by one nation is one one nations was fault or responsibility we need that and the S&V arts have to be we have to be at the forefront. And also as a symbol as a imaginary space or symbolic space, but for that moment also as a real space to say, This is what we have to think about and that's why we, you know, had me now row often here on that program that there are that there are artists to help us to to think that through and have good, good questions. So those of you, what can we learn what can be learned from the Asian artists, what are lessons I mean we have people who listen in also young professionals, artists, people who are here who work, you will look at administration or from Europe. What can we learn what are lessons where you say this is important it's basic but perhaps overlook something that even corona made clearer. Rachel. Well, I don't know that, you know, I have to say the word Asia is such a strange one because the idea that somehow Turkey, Israel, Saudi Arabia, China, India, Pacific Island, you know, there's something wrong with the terminology in some ways, I must say, and I wouldn't generalize but I can say that there are lessons to learn everywhere you go and with various ways that artists work. So I'll bring, I'll bring up Java as one example in Indonesia because our, I mean it's true in other parts of Indonesia true but there's something about collective work. And a lot of really interesting work is too large to, to quote unquote ring, because it's so inclusive. And so and it's really about often about creating work together. You know, so not not always but there is, there is a lot of working together a lot of people who want to join. So that's, could you give one example, could you give one example. Um, I'm thinking of. Oh, I'm kind of think of this big theater project that happened in Jakarta. And, and the name is just escaping me but when we were trying to do festival of Indonesia was very hard because so many of these pieces, I think who do we Jaya's work, for example. There were, there were literally, you know, 3040 people involved in the production, no one was getting paid. Maybe they were gaining one girl caught, which was like, you know, enough to buy a cigarette, getting lunch. But, but it wasn't about that it was about working on on things together. And I don't mean to idealize it and I'm not saying that there are an artist who are working on their own. But there is, there is a hunger to work together there is something about being social and create art together that that can be really powerful. And, and the eye to that is also a certain kind of confidence that some of the artists have so that's why I brought up that example early on, when the, when the Indonesian former Foreign Minister wanted to do a festival of Indonesia. A very large group of the artists went to him and said, we'd like to be able to define that. And the big part of it was, he said okay. I think about, you know, and, and subsequent efforts have been different where, you know, a group of presenters came and they chose what they like, or a group of bureaucrats said, Oh, fashion shows will be big in America, that'll really do it. But what was what had so much integrity was that that the process. And that's why I brought up the red to the process of incorporating the artists not only in the art making, but in the art decision making, and thinking about representation becomes a real opportunity or for a kind of equity that we can all learn from. Yeah, so including the artist, securing. And also the idea to participate in art is not done by experts for people to consume the idea to collaborate and experience together is something that is, yeah. This was a group of artists in in 1988, who were saying, we need to be, if we're representing Indonesia we need to be about the environment and the rainforest we need to be talking about religion of Islam we need to be talking about children we need to talk about urban we need to talk about contemporary expression. This is, this is 30 some years ago, and they're already thinking in those terms that would that often people don't realize, you know and they said how do you represent a country. And I'm not sure that many of our year bureaucrats would have come up with that. Yeah, absolutely. So well said so well said, and Frank it came up again I think when you were speaking with John Glover about having artists at the head or as part of the decision making process for institutions and Kauffman Music Center that's very much the case. Again, I have the great good fortune to work with the town through beyond Palermo, and Pamela Villorese is a major actress and she's been involved in many things in terms of social causes but she's an artist. This is the first time in her life that she has actually been responsible for running an institution, but to have the artist perspective, I mean, we see it and in everything that's being done at the, at the beyond though. So yes, what can we learn so many things. Yeah, so many things. What else is in Europe from your experience at the moment where you see these are things that are working there and I wish it would be like this in New York, what do you monitor? Well, first of all, and I have been so struck by the work that you have presented of Milo Rao, his films, but this film theater, the way he combines this kind of work. And we're another project that we have at Palermo that I think is extremely interesting and could be something very revealing in terms of the future is a collaboration with the Dan Steylter Wuppertal Pinabasch. One of her great, well, how many great works that she create innumerable. One of her great works and one of the first works done on the basis of residency in the city was called Palermo Palermo. It was 31 or 32 years ago and it was created in the Teatro Biondo, in fact, and she came to Palermo with the company and they spend a certain amount of time there. I will add, it was very much at the instigation open with the support of Leo Luca Orlando, the mayor of Palermo who was mayor at the time who was an extraordinary intellectual and deeply committed to the arts in all their forms. And we are now we Teatro Biondo, we are working with the Pinabasch Foundation and the Dan Steylter Wuppertal and over the course of several workshops for Wuppertal dancers at a time come to Palermo and work with young professionals, dancers, acrobats of their choice based on video and auditions. And over the course of a period of time, a work is going to be developed based on fragments of the original Palermo Palermo but this will be a new piece, because Palermo Palermo is a lengthy piece of over But this is going to be working with local or Sicilian artists of various disciplines, doing in a creative process over a period of time that will resort in some work in progress or something presented to the public. But I think this is based on lessons we've learned and continue to learn this began pre COVID this work of how to work together in a different way how to involve the community how to involve the international world, you know, beyond our own, beyond our own geographical setting. I'm fascinating. I'm so deeply involved. And I think it became even more clear now that, you know, the kind of a dialogue discourse was the history of the company, the history of the city to collect to forces that are to be found on the space for artists to really spend time in the city and as Pinabasch originally did. He also talked about I think it was a French theater that did telephone telephone. Oh, this is a closed most of them and look at what's happening and they can't do so much the public or New York theater workshop or the second shit and so it's the signature and the vineyard and other so what what did they do and I think it was a popular became a became an important. Again, stop me if I go on too long one of your earlier guests was Emmanuel de Marcy motor who's the director of the theater de la ville and the festival do time. Yeah, created, he's very deeply involved also in poetry, and he created a project about 10 years ago when he was at the theater Doras before he came to tell the view, but he's developed it now and since a couple of months at the theater de la ville they have been doing a program called consultation poetic. Now in French, if you go to a doctor you have a consultation medical. So the idea is this is a consultation but it's poetic it's about poetry, and the following happens. Any member of the public signed up for free for a, you will receive a phone call on a certain date at a certain time. And this will be from an actor or an actress who's had a short little, you know, I, you know, before becoming involved in this project has worked on they have a short training session. And in fact, the, it's all, it's very much developed out of coven and the conversation begins one on one so the person is anonymous in both direction. And conversations begin by how are you, and the actor is is really there to have a converse personal conversation with you and to listen. And during the course of maybe 10 or 15 minutes. There's a dialogue we have a conversation I've done this myself. And then the actor or actor says, Now I would like to read you a poem. And during the course of the personal conversation they have chosen from a group of poems, what poem they think is most adapted to you. And then the conversation goes on for approximately 2025 minutes, and then it comes to an end. And at the end, after you conclude the conversation. You receive it within the next couple of days and all the nose poetic and in French all the nose is a prescription, as though it's a medical prescription. And you receive the, the copy of the poem that was chosen and was read to you. Now, in my case and I'm sure it's the case of many other people as well. The actor whose name is Nicola, something added another poem because we talked about travel and about being involved in the arts and travel. Now, here's the other thing about small increments becoming very large. This project started. It now involves, first of all, the tell the label has partnerships in something like 14 different countries. Since the program began, there have been more than 14,000 consultation poetic. It's a place in 22 languages because of the partnerships in different countries, from Greece to Hungary to nine different countries in, in, in Africa, and I'm working with the tell the label now there may be a partnership with the New York theater soon. I think of this over 83 actors, be it throughout the partnerships in Paris and France and elsewhere, 22 different languages. And this is called the tool to the imaginary and by now probably 15,000 consultation, I really urge anyone. There was a marvelous article in the New York Times there might be a link on the whole round because I sent that in earlier. Anyone can sign up now so you can sign up in English or French or whatever. Now you listen into this you can find the link at the New York Times. And again, yeah, and when, and when you spoke with a Manuel de Massimo day he spoke about listening about the important how he didn't want to rush to put up lots of material online. He thought he for him it was so important to have a period of listening, but but this course he does your project is extraordinary extraordinary incredible. Great ideas. I think also in France in there was at the theater engaged in a dialogue of a book on the history, the overlooked history of of France by Philip Boucheron, I think, and they read some of it. The book was already asked 100 historians say what is what are parts of history we have overlooked that makes clear that France always has been in a way like Palermo, a country of multi nationalities of diverse. There was never a France and they read it out they engaged and. And so it is quite significant if both of you we have a bit over time already but we have some. If they have Biden plan came up and which I think it should also be for for the arts where they have to reinvent the structure is no longer holding the bridges are crumbling by people need to get across but in better ways and new ways. The time of the digital age as we are here now we always say at the seat of bright road for the children of the technological age but now we have the children of the digital age, I say, and we have something different or more than a different times we different from what would both of you say maybe Rachel will start for you if you would be as they had not of the feds of the feds like you know a ministry and in Washington mostly unfortunately there is no ministry of culture. So what would you prescribe what would you say this is what we need what would be your close rotation media media color for for the state of the arts in the in the in the US what is urgent what is significant. I think as you know I think it's heard that there is reciprocity in the kind of exchange. I'm going to speak more specifically towards culture as diplomacy in this moment. Sorry, I think that culture as diplomacy really means reciprocity. And, and, you know, there's a project at State Department called Center stage, which brings artists from outside of the United States here. You know, this is a first because before we only sent out American artists to represent America and the best of ways by saying that we have a mutual respect respect and that we bring people here, we're giving a very different message so I think that's quite important that kind of reciprocity and really thinking through, you know, as you've heard over and during this hour, the idea of giving artists and an agency meaning not only in the arts, but to speak more broadly because the kind of wisdom that they have to share is one that is relevant to our society in so many different ways. I wouldn't say it any better. Speak to artists, listen to artists, listen, generally listen and involve the artists. Yeah, which is kind of a radical. I think it happens a bit more maybe in Europe on Asian other countries as far as I know on the board of Lincoln Center. I think it has 86, I think everybody can be one you pay 350,000 or something. And not that you're really in charge there's still a smaller group but still there's no artist of course there so it creates an atmosphere and environment, you know that then you know it's different than perhaps the good old days but I guess a Balanchine and Bernstein and you know, the people would, they would know each other, most probably this is no longer the case and I think to open the institutions. I believe very much actually institutions and artists and ideas have come to get together with existence but they have to change. And if you go save there, you know, at the young little bit who started out I don't know exactly where we don't have so much I would love to, you know also hear all both of your stories but into the young Rachel and the young little bit at moments when you had to make up your mind, where do I go to dedicate my life to this what, what are messages you would like to tell yourself for others who are listening now what's what's of importance. You know, I've, I've been around for a while. And when I first went into the field there was, there weren't such things as arts management programs in the universities and I admire very much that exists. But I must say, I cannot imagine any better way of learning than the old fashioned apprentice mentor. If you can get involved with, you know, try to get into the team of an artist and institution, the smaller the institution the better the smaller the institution the more nimble and do everything. There's nothing that's sort of above or below. Every experience is a learning experience. So being involved actively being involved in the trenches and learning by doing I really believe deeply in that if one has that opportunity. And I guess I would say, you know, the path I took was totally unrealistic. So in today's terms, people are always thinking, will there be a job. Well, who studies dance ethnology, thinking the big job. But I really followed something that I was quite passionate about, and from a very early age. And in fact I went to Asia and Africa on a scholarship before, you know, decades before I ever went to Europe. I mean, I thought Europe's nice but not compared to going to Asia and Africa's, you know, I really I only I think I went to Europe for the first time when I was about 50. I think following your passion. And, and, you know, I guess it's also about about those relationships, you're open to relationships and and experiences. You know, as far as I'm concerned, I was talking with Joe Malillo last night and about how, what an honor it is to be having the kind of job we had with we, we are in constant relationship with artists, and it's a creative. You know, anyone who thinks arts administration is not creative is is wrong that creative relationship and and trying to make sure that trying to help facilitate an artist being able to realize their, their vision is a very important part of the process of the ecology often think of, of the arts world as really any a genuine ecology, because, because no one's doing this stuff by themselves. Absolutely. Absolutely. Everything is a team. Nothing happens just because of an individual. Absolutely. Yeah, so I think this was an enlightening a conversation just from listening to you we all know that could be part two and three and and would be much. The idea of an idea but you both also our mentors and people who listen this reach out to them and take also advantage of that, of that knowledge and for both of you your work at the Asia society Rachel and the networks you engaged and and a little bit going back to to to Europe in Palermo where the mayor says there are no foreigners in our city there are no refugees everybody who's in Palermo is Palermo Palermo you know whether you say it is. Yeah, let me tell you about he yells at people when they come up and questions to him. Yeah, there's a lot to learn I think also Europe has a lot to learn I think in America the idea of diversity the sensitivity to racism in all its form from the aggressions from the little wars at the table as they said about Northern Ireland you know what happens that the families on the streets the little things you know they I think that is higher here I think also Europe. You can you know also learn from that exchange you know that's something I think is there's an understanding is taking place in the US at the moment that is of global significance as Elizabeth said you know all around the world. There's a lot of Floyd trial and significance of it and that there's some form of justice felt and in and as many say you know this is of course not the rule and but it signals something and as we and we also have to be part of the change and we have to work for you in your extraordinary careers and this is also a celebration I think of what you both contributed to the field it's enormous. It has changed lives. It has helped artists to create the work at the moment, but also the following ones it all builds together it's invisible as you also that we often do not know we have no idea what will come out of it but both of you have done extraordinary contribution in the name of everybody in that big landscape like to say thank you and and and stay engaged stay involved and and it's important for us to know that people with that experience that history I'm monitoring and can give advice and also be doing something because whatever you guys do. You make decisions after having presented 1000 artists over three decades or four whatever and that's so this is something like a masterful work is something that's a whole life is behind so it's important. Your decision what you don't be all and can learn from this because you guys say this makes sense and this is meaningful so really thank you all for for listening thanks for all around for hosting us we have Milati tomorrow than we have a collaboration between Washington and a lot of people to artists from Switzerland and Nigeria found a way to collaborate as well as Lincoln Center's director's lab at where they first met also in that kind of big network. And Katania created so but it's a big reminder as you said the listen to the artist community small things and big changes there as something in the arts really have to speak up now and this time if there ever was a time for the arts to show a flag and to show that we are here we really have to think about what's important and what people also listening to them it's now and that's why I feel so passionate about what we do is the significance that we really have to listen we really really have to think what we are doing what's right and what's meaningful in this time now so both of you thank you. Thank you Frank. Rachel. Being with us so Rachel that is fantastic to have you with us some very big honor and I look forward to seeing you again more in person and collaborating and who knows what our park projects and our festival project which is some development you know maybe we can also make a small contribution and thank you all and to our listeners who now have so many choices that we started large March there was not so many programming online and taught so much more so it means a lot to us that you are listening. And thank you for Frank because what you're doing with the single talks is unique. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Bye bye you guys. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Thank you.