 Welcome to Barbell Logic, Rewind. Welcome to the Barbell Logic podcast. I'm Scott Hamburg. This is Matt Reynolds. We have Jillian Ward with us today. So Reynolds came over to our house one day, and we trained and trained. And then we went and ate Mexican food. And Matt said, blah, blah, blah, blah, Jillian Ward, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, what? He's like, wait a minute. You don't know who Jillian Ward is. She is the strongest woman who has ever lived. I think I said the greatest strength athlete. No, female. No, he said she is the strongest woman to ever live. And you go, wait, wait, wait, stop, stop right now. And then you got your phone out and you passed it around. And that's my Jillian Ward story. I was like, what's up? I'm glad you're here. So we've known each other for a long time, probably almost 10 years now, not quite, but close. I think so. So I really do want to tell your story, because your story is insane and it's awesome. And I want people to hear your story. So I want to know when the first time you did anything fitness-like that you can remember, what was the very first thing? It's probably before I can remember, because it's a story that I've been told. But when I was a little kid, the only thing I ever wanted to do was to be able to fly. So from what I was told, I used to stand on the top of the landing and most kids will go down and maybe a laundry basket. But I would stand at the very top of the landing and just jump off of it and just jump down the flight of stairs or roll down the flight of stairs. Crazy stuff, like trying to pick things up or pull things out of the floor that were part of the floor. The wood planks in the floor. But very, very strange thing. So my parents signed me up for Jim Swim at 18 months old. Oh wow. Pretty early. Jim Swim? Yes, but I still haven't learned how to swim. Oh, that's right. Yeah, you can swim a little bit, but not really, right? Like you're kind of scared of water. Like not at all. You can't even doggy paddle like in a, like if you went to a hotel pool that was four feet deep, you couldn't start doggy paddling and stay up? No, I just frolic and look nice. And you do, you frolic on your Instagram page. It's amazing. So, and then you, was really the first thing that you did where you got serious was gymnastics? It was, but I was a serious, I was very serious at playground stunts. Okay. So. What does that look like? What does that mean? Like monkey bars and just like. No, I think I just very, very young realized that I could attract the tension in the playground by doing some kind of crazy stuff. Come on, you know, you have a story that's a specific example where you called out some kid, there was a boy three years older than you and you're like, but I can jump further than you. No, I do have lots of those stories, but I think. What do I have to do to get you to tell one? Well, it all started. So I started gymnastics at roughly two. Pretty serious about it by five. And I was not, and I wrote an article about this, but I was not the best girl on the team. So I was strong, but I was a mess. You know, I was always picking my wedgie and my nose was always running and my hair was unruly and I was just a mess all of the time. So the coach would pay attention to the pretty girl or the graceful girl or the girl with good dance skills and I wanted to be the best. So somewhere along the way, I realized that that was just gonna come from working really, really hard. And some of my early physical skills actually come from being punished. So if you do something bad in gymnastics, you'll pay for it by saying, you go do 50 push-ups. Like if I yawned when you're not supposed to, drop and give me 50 push-ups, sir. I felt like Rolly, your coach, or who was your, had to be some Eastern European. It was. Of course it was. But there was a girl on the team and she was my best friend and my biggest rival and I wanted to be better than her. And I had a coach that is like, you need to get strong. And that was the one place that I was able to excel was that I really, really worked hard and I worked on fitness and I became just obsessed as far back as I can remember with just feats of strength, like superhero stuff. I'm like, I wanna be able to fly and jump and swing like Tarzan and I would get hurt all of the time. There were a lot of emergency room visits in childhood but from as long as I can remember, I was fascinated with dealing things that people told me were impossible. So interesting. It is interesting. So you competed up to what level in gymnastics? You were like a national level gymnast at some point? Yes, but young. So that, I probably peaked my abilities around 14 because that's for some people when fear sets in. So once you get afraid and if you don't have inherent trust in your coach if you start to have doubt, it's really over for you. So. Did that happen to you? Yes, somewhat. I had a couple of injuries and a couple of my friends had serious injuries and it scared me. And so then I branched off. So the rest of the time in high school and later on I ended up doing gymnastics, track and field and I started a physical fitness team. So. You had a competitive physical fitness team? We did. Pre-crossfit. Yeah, right. It started, if you guys remember the president's physical fitness council. Yeah. So we had that in junior high. Arnold. That's right. My junior high school teacher looked into the Marine Corps physical fitness challenge which is a battery of five tests. They do it in high schools across the country. It's push-ups, pull-ups, two minutes of sit-ups, a 300 yard shuttle run and a standing broad jump. And it's competed across the country at the high school level but he entered us in at junior high school. And when I got to high school I was like we don't have a team like this and I started the team. And we had a physical fitness club and a physical fitness team. How did you do on that team? I was the national champion. This is why it's gonna be a hard interview. I know. Oh, I just happened to be the best in the world. Right. This is, by the way. Did you get to meet Arnold? Listen for a theme of this. This is about to be the next six stories we tell. You got to meet Arnold Schwarzenegger? No, later on. Okay, okay. When I won something else. Yeah, yeah. We're getting there. No, Jackie Joyner-Kersie was the one that did the award ceremony for that. Yep. But I wasn't the best the first time out. She had long nails. Did she have long fingernails, right? She was a sprinter. Yes. Sprinter and track. Floja, and she had really long, like insanely long fingernails for a runner. Yeah. I don't know why I remember that. I think she was on the cover of Sports Illustrated. I obsessively read. So you were the athlete. You were the obsessed athlete. I was the obsessed guy that read about athletes. I would read the Sports Almanac and memorize the. Yeah, so, and then, so presidential physical fitness and fitness. So I have a funny story about that. So we had to sell M&M's in order to raise money to go to the national championship, which is at MCRD every year in San Diego. And you would go. And you're, and you, let's just go ahead and tell people where you're from is if they can't quite figure out the. New York City. Queens. Queens. Those are Queens. Coming to America. They tell you everything you know about Queens. Sorry. And the fitness team's selling M&M's. And the fitness team is selling M&M's to go all, literally as far away as you could possibly go from Queens. But I ate all of them and I never sold them. So about once a week, I would ask for a new box. And the coach thought that I was selling them. And I think there were, I think there were 20 of them in a box. Yeah, I was gonna say, I had a new box of M&M's. A new, a new box of case of M&M's. A new case of M&M's. Peanut. Most of the time, peanut. And we may get into this later, but I have a junk food addiction. And I ate all of the M&M's. So when the time came to give our money in, I had no money. And he said, well, you need to do something. I said, well, I think we may be a pushupathon and we'll raise money like this. So we put this thing together. It was gonna happen in the auditorium at lunchtime when people had study hall. And basically people were gonna sponsor you per pushup. And anybody that wanted to sign up could do this on the main stage in the auditorium. So I went around with something. People have five cents of pushup and the rule was that at this time I was either 15 or 16. So this is kind of when all the weirdness started. Oh, country. So you're going around raising this money. So I'm raising money because I ate all of the M&M's. And we had this pushupathon. So we had about two weeks to get pledges, 20 cents of pushup. And the rule was that you had to do one set, touch the floor, come up to full lock out at the top. Once you stopped. From your toes. From your toes. Once you stopped. Legit pushup. Or put your butt in the air or moved a hand or a foot, you were done. Wow. Super strict. So there was a boy on the fitness team. I hope he listens to this. We'll probably laugh about it. What's his name? Come on. Brad Herman. Brad Herman. We're looking at you, Brad. And the other girl, Kim, who is my rival in gymnastics were like the two people that I had challenged to this. Well, we all start together. And that day, Kim did 60 consecutive pushups. Really good for a girl. Fantastic. Phenomenal. Brad did 100 pushups. Also phenomenal. And you did. I did 400 pushups and the bell rang. The bell rang. Lunch was over. She did it for the entire hour. And then things got really weird from there. You broke a bunch of kids. They're like, yeah, I'll give you 20 cents a pushup. You build them for 80 bucks a piece. Paid for the M&Ms and then some. And that's when she was 16. So that was like four years ago. With my pushup money. So OK. So then what happened? It got progressively weirder. So there was a record board on this. You know how in the school gymnasium you'll see records for whatever they are? So we have to go. Record and like whatever. We have to go back to when I got to junior high, I wanted to be on the I wanted to join the weightlifting club. And at the time it was the late 80s. And they're like, no, the girls do aerobics and the boys do weight training. So you could come to school an hour early. I'm offended by how sexist that is. But that's how it was. It's not fair. Let the girls do all the same things the boys do. Oh, I thought it's because you wanted to do the aerobics. You wanted to wear that leotard on the outside of your tight. No, I already have. There was good music on that side. I remember like it was like pump up the jam or whatever. It was late 80s. But I did not want to do aerobics. I wanted to be on the weightlifting side. And I went over to the coach, a gym teacher, Mr. Hammer. And I said, I want a weight lift. And he said, you can't. You have to do aerobics. And at the time I was in seventh grade. I said, what if I break all of the ninth grade boys records right now? He's like, well, that's not happening. So it's like a pull up record, a push up record, rope climbs, dips, whatever it was. It was all body weight stuff. It was all body weight stuff. And he's like, the girls can't do pull ups or whatever it was. So I looked over. And in the next 20 minutes, I took down the ninth grade boys. So you were in. And I was in and I was allowed to join the weightlifting club, which wasn't really weightlifting. But we exercised and we bench pressed a little bit. And my friend Jennifer joined us for that. And again, this carried over. So when I got to high school and here's where it gets to a funny story, the same type of record board in the gym. And I looked at the. So now I'm in ninth grade. And I said, well, I want to break all the 12th grade boys records. And some of them took some time. And I said, I'm going to break these records where they will stay there until the building burns down. And that was what my goal was. So this freshman, this young woman, a freshman. She's like, all these guys in deep puberty, going to wreck it. She's like, it took a little while. You know the guys that have the records are no longer in puberty. They look like Burt Reynolds. She's like, yeah, that guy over there that's driving the trans-am with a mustache. Right. I'm going to beat his record. So I started to chase that. I was still at the same time doing gymnastics, running track. And I got it in my head. I'm like, this is what I'm going to do. I want to do 80 pull-ups at the time. I want to try to do. And the records were nowhere close to that. So during the course of the next year, I basically, my poor high school boyfriend. So he came over every single day. And what was his name? His name was Darin. And he was very good to me. And he spent the year laying on the floor in my house, counting my push-ups. And then my mom would give him dinner and he'd go home. And that's all we would do. But I chased. No good stories there. Moving on. Yeah, I do feel sorry for Darin. Me too. He got abused a little bit. He was a pitcher on the baseball team. And they sort of didn't let him live it down that his girlfriend was. Happened to be the strongest best athlete in the entire high school. Right. And a very large high school, close to 5,000 students. But when I finally got done, I mean the records, the interesting thing was my sister went to the school a few years later and people looked at him and they're like, that's not possible. And 20 years later, 25 years later, the records are up there and they're yellowed. And there's like folklore because nobody believes that that person never really existed. Right, right. So I want to say at the time, I pushed up record on the wall. At that time, I want to say it was 600 consecutive. My pull-up record, 81. Bench press body weight for reps was over 100. Over 100 reps. My mile of run got broken. It wasn't so great. So what school was that? Benjamin Cardozo and Bayside Queens. So when did Guinness come around? Can we go to the recent story? Tell your first Guinness story. OK. OK. No, that's fine. Sure, yeah. And then we'll do the throwback. OK. So two years ago, I've done, and I get criticized because I jump all over the place from sport to sport and people think that I. As someone who coached you for a few years, I didn't sympathize. And I have no intention span. But to me, it really is all the same. It's focus, it's effort, it's hard work, and there's so much that translates between one and the other. And we all get criticized and like, well, why don't you just be really good at one? And I understand that also. And for me, it's not even a matter of that. It's just kind of doing what I love. And I see it all as the same thing. But a couple of years ago, I was a little bit done with powerlifting and weightlifting and bodybuilding. And I decided that I was going to make another attempt for the Guinness Book of World Records push-up record. But in doing so, what I wanted to do was raise money and awareness for physical education and public schools. I cry on every third show. Yeah, we like to cry. Yeah, that's the best thing. Yeah, this stuff matters to us, you know? It does matter. So I went to 60 schools. And I taught a fitness lesson and nutrition lesson and did a bunch of push-ups with kids. And I had my curriculum sent out over kind of across the state and had planned to get to more schools, did a bunch of speaking, Rotary Club. Anybody that would let me kind of talk about it and just get people moving and show them that it just starts with the simple, most basic things and just how young you could start and just get somebody doing something because something's better than nothing. And I invited everybody. We streamed it live. And I invited everybody in the 60 schools and all the kids to watch in their schools if they were able to or to come to the event, which kind of put me on the spot because now I'm making a world record attempt, broadcasting it live and letting all of these people that I've spoken to for six months come and watch. So I did 1,190 push-ups. Hey, see, how long did that take? So the nature of what the record is, there's so many different records. So I can't say that. I'm not gonna say it doesn't have meaning, but if you look, there's a record for this and a record for that. But the push-up record that I had wanted to go for for that was it's max push-ups in an hour because to me, part of the problem is is that people form is different. So I don't know. I saw a video recently of a guy breaking a push-up record and his form is like, he's moving two inches, but I'm like, I'm gonna honor form. So if you're honoring form, push-up is gonna take probably a second, at least a second to complete. And so close to a second in correct form. So a lot of pressure to train for that, knowing that I was gonna host this big event and invite people to it. And I think back when I trained for that. So my goal, the record was, I wanna say just under a thousand, whatever I was shooting for 1200. I got to 1190. My mother almost stopped me. She was hysterical crying because my body started to break down around 900 and she couldn't handle it and wanted to come in and pull me out. And everyone's like, do not, you are not stopping her. So what does that mean? Your body's starting to break down. Cramps? No, you could see distress. Like the other thing, and I used to get criticized and crossfit is people didn't think I was working hard because you don't see distress. From years of gymnastics, my breath control is very monitored. My facial expressions are very monitored. A lot of the time when I'm under distress, somebody wouldn't know it. So I was at crossfit. Well, she's not going hard enough. She doesn't lay on the floor. She doesn't grimace. She doesn't wince. She doesn't, and it's just me really understanding how to control those things. Soversink pacing. So what I did is I just did 20 pushups. I did 10 pushups every 30 seconds. And that was the, yeah. Is that what I did? That would have made sense, right? Yeah, 10 pushups every 30 seconds and we'd rest the remainder of the 30 seconds and had known- In full lockout position? No. You could come down. Yep. And I had known just from keeping lots and lots of records and having somebody that would sit near me and take notes through that. That I could go, you know, six, then I could go seven, but if I went 13 in a row, that's too many. If I go 10 in a row, so I had known through pacing over the period of, took me about six months to get there. But a lesson I had learned so much, I never count. I only count to the number one. Whenever I do, I think, when you say strength, you know, I know that I fit big numbers in the gym, but my muscular endurance is probably what's the most phenomenal. And I think it's really psychological because I never count beyond one. I say to myself, I can always do one. I'm going to do one perfect rep. So who counted for you? Oh, who counted for me. Yeah, specifically, who was kind of your coach that was to make sure you paced right during the event? During the event, not during the event. During the event, the entire crowd counted, but my friend, Christus, counted in my ear for that. But I didn't, I would know what the total was, but I didn't listen. And that's something that I had learned. I probably started doing that like when I was nine or 10 years old and would start doing this kind of stuff. And I was like, I can do one. And gymnastics is all about form. And I'm going to think only of this. And as soon as I put that, as soon as that one rep is up, that's put away. I'm on to the next one to prevent the anxiety or I have so much more to do or getting off pace. I just went off on a crazy team tonight. Okay, I'm all over the place. So you broke the record. Yeah. Which didn't quite hit your 1200, but you were really close. So, correct. And I also went for the pull up record on the same day and realized that may have been a little bit, a little bit too much. It's going to be fairly long. It's proving to be, so body weight wasn't so much of a factor with the pushups. So you've seen my body weight change because I'm a bodybuilder some of the time. Sometimes I'm a- Powerlifter, CrossFit or you've done all of it. Right, all of those things and they have different bodies that go with them. But I actually did the pushups at a heavier body weight than what, which seems counter-intuitive. I was about 155. Okay. And you're short. How tall are you? I'm 5'4". And I would say my weight- 5'2". Like your contest weight is low to mid 130s. And like fat, happy Powerlifter. Yeah. You could be 148 a lot and you would cut to 148 to get there, right? Right, right. But like normal me walks around probably closer to 160. So the pushups I did on the kind of the heavier side of it, because I was doing in the neighborhood of three to 5,000 pushups a week and you're going to eat to recover from that. Sure. And I still always squatted two to three times a week along with that. Squatted, pulled once a week. But what I'm finding is now I'm trying to do the same thing with pull-ups and broaden kind of the spectrum of what I'm doing with the kids. But that body weight is a much bigger factor. Sure. A much bigger factor. You should probably come down a little bit, right? Yeah. Even I would think 10 pounds would make a big difference. And at what point in the training, so I've been out on the boat drinking every weekend. So over the summer and the pull-up record. I don't want you on the boat, which is no swimming stuff. Yeah. We just lost like nine people in Branson on a ride the ducks. They were on a boat, couldn't swim. I thought they got trapped. Have you seen a ride the ducks? Yes. You don't really get trapped on a ride the ducks. It's an awning on the help of the thing. They got trapped because they couldn't swim. They got trapped because they were in the water. Right, they were trapped by the water. I hate you. I'm sorry. This is so bad. I'm sorry. It's true story though. It's true. So the pull-off thing. You've got to lose a little weight to do the pull-ups to break the record. So the record is close to 800 in an hour. It's actually seven and changed. So it's an average, whatever the record is right now it's an average of 12.6 a minute. And it's a dead hang pull-up. And I don't know that I understood that doing 12.6 pull-ups a minute, it is. So right now what I've worked up to is I've done eight on the minute for 40 minutes and that's around that now. But the push-ups I knew I had, it's a lot. And yeah. How many pull-ups do you think you could do in an hour? In an hour? I can probably do 15 every five minutes. But for how many times? I mean, that's the thing. Well, I mean, if I was going to get it out in an hour you think you'd do 60 in an hour? Maybe. Maybe. That'd be the last thing I ever did. Yeah. One a minute. They definitely go away. Yeah. It's been very humbling. I mean, there's other stuff like you have to get body work done, like the amount of tension headaches. So I think this is going to be a longer goal which is challenging to me because looking, setting my side on something that may not have the immediate reward of three months from now or six months from now and maybe I may be setting a date a year from now but along with setting that date I'm planning to get out into the community and talk about it immediately. I like being in those pressure situations but that's sort of what, that's my next thing, I think. So what do they give you when you get the Guinness Book of World Records record? You don't get anything. You don't even get like a plaque? Like a picture of something that says... So it's actually pens for a long period of time and stuff so the mistake that we made was with this video submittal as opposed to spending the money on the officials so it's still considered to be pending which could go on forever but the officials should be flown out in order to do something. When we do it again, we'll absolutely have officials but in my mind, every dollar raised in any capacity was going towards these kids and the good part about it was they let me choose how the funds were delegated. I was gonna ask. So I know you're trying to raise awareness for physical fitness in the United States but what do you do with the money? For most people, I'll choose more educational stuff and teaching like buying equipment but buying equipment is only one thing what I really wanna do is teach. You could give the kids stuff but unless you show them how to use it. So my plan was this year though would be to get more kids into the gym for strength training, offer scholarships and stuff not necessarily to promote just my business but a lot of what I do is very local and we get people. So what happened was just getting behind this thing so many other people got involved and came out to teach the kids like I would go to a Rotary Club meeting and they're like, well, we wanna go to the schools too with you and go teach this. So it was a really, really big kind of community project and I'm hoping to do that on a bigger scale with a pull-up thing and I always pick a movement that everybody could be able to do. So I had the kids doing the push-ups with me and that choice was that maybe not everybody's gonna do a pull-up but I invite, they could do some variation of a pull-up. Maybe they could do it with a band. Maybe they could do a 45 degree body row or something but I will specifically choose a skill that I could teach and somebody could do it without spending money. Yeah. So that's- Anybody can do a push-up for work towards push-ups. Yeah. So let's go to a throwback that's a good lead in to your original push-up contest. Yeah. So as things started to get weirder and you sort of set all these records at high school at some point you got in contact with the Guinness people and you were like 16 or 17 years old. And set the record in high school. So the high school thing for me, I don't always talk so much about it because I was a physically fit, strong muscular woman in today's day is far more accepted than it was at that time. Sure. So when I think CrossFit's had a lot to do with that but like when I go out now most of the response to me or a good amount, there's still be negative but there is a lot of positive response. It was not like that 30 years ago. Or 25 years ago. I mean, I was abused, made fun of the New York Daily News a very large New York City publication once did an article about me and the title of it was Is She Human? So imagine this on a 16, it was actually 17 year old when I set the record, Psychi, Is She Human? And the first line was beneath her baggy shirt or biceps bigger than all of the boys. Right. And when you're a 17 year old girl in high school that's not what you want to read. So I made my mom drive around and try to buy up all the copies so nobody else could have them, which wasn't gonna happen. But I have kind of mixed feelings about that time. I did set the record, I did 978 in 1995 but I dealt with so much adversity and I'm more proud of myself for pushing past the adversity and continuing down that path than any specific athletic accomplishment at that time. So what came after high school? A lot of fun. So I bounced around a lot. I still, I did recreational, recreationally did gymnastics. As one does. Yeah, of course. After college. As I still do. You do? No, no, I can barely walk. Like sports wise what came after high school? Well, at some point you started sort of focusing at least for a short amount of time on bodybuilding, right? Yeah. In the late 90s. I did get into bodybuilding a little bit for a short period of time. You don't know anything else. So when sports end for you at that time there's not a lot of options for women so you just become a gym rat. So I became pretty much a gym rat. I still dabbled in some sports but I had become a gym rat. I had my parents buy weights for me. This is probably another fairly good childhood story but I would hide all these muscle magazines under my bed and if I could get weights or if I found weights in somebody's trash or like the sand filled ones and I would hide them. And in sixth grade my parents like what do you want for Christmas? And I'm like I want a universal machine with all those things on it. Like where are you going to put them? Like in my bedroom. Right. And every night I did every single exercise. So you got one? I got one. I did it. Now my sister was so embarrassed by me she like passed by my room and closed the door with her friends. She's like don't smell my sister, don't go on your own. You smell? I don't smell my sister. I'd be in there sweating. I had three, I had the Rocky soundtrack. Oh yeah. Okay, flash dance, footloose. There had to be some other movie, some maybe Santa Claus fire and Rocky. And I would do every exercise. I had the encyclopedia of bodybuilding and anything I could do, I would do. So I was a gym rat. I got into bodybuilding in college. We had a very active bodybuilding club in the school like Mike Katz used to come MC the bodybuilding show every year. From Popey and Iron? Yeah. Big forehead. And then I got into the industry you know as a trainer and stuff worked and then in my 20s was all over the place. I did some competitive ballroom dance for a while. By the way, that's a, we don't have to go down that, but you know if you ask her about, when she said I did some competitive ballroom dance. I was not serious though, I was not. That wasn't, I wasn't good at that. You didn't win the world championship ballroom dance. No, I just liked the costumes in the shoes. I did a little bit of that, but I was mostly working, being a gym rat up until and I came across CrossFit because American Gladiators fell through for me. So. Did you notice how she brushed by that story? Right. You know when, when I didn't quite make the American Gladiators TV show. So. So Cross, that's 2007 that you discovered it kind of at the end? No, we can't let this American Gladiators thing go. So what happened with that? And what was your name gonna be? Chaos. Chaos. Okay. Yep. Yep. As a child, I would always write to them to be a contestant and I would get the form letter back and I wasn't old enough to go on the show. So they read. They're like, no, you set all those records at the gym, at your high school. We can't want you to humiliate our staff. They resurrected the show, I guess in 2007 and I trained the girl, Jamie, that played Fury and she ended up blowing out her ACL and they were gonna replace her and she had an N. Yes. And I was cast and I'm like, they're throwing a party. They make a jingle for me and leaving my job. Cast as a Gladiator and then the show gets cut. So I'm devastated. It's not that you didn't make the show. It's that the show, you were in. I was sure they had a little bit of a problem with my height, but that was another. But at the time like Gina Carano was on the show. Oh yeah. So, okay. That falls through and you're like, hey, there's this. How did you hear about CrossFit for the first time? I worked at a place called La Palestra and there was another trainer there and I was pretty upset about the Gladiator thing. By the way, La Palestra. Amazing gym in downtown Manhattan. Correct. Which I got to go there a couple of times. Yes. It's crazy. And there's like lots of celebrities went there and they were like, it was very respectful and kind of hard to get in. And there were like private areas where celebrities could kind of train and they get left alone. And right, it was interesting stories there too. Yes. So one of the other trainers came over to me and I was sulking because this was sort of a dream of mine and I got to wear costumes. And that's what it's really all about. It is. Well, it's superhero. Yeah. Superhero thing, you know. Yeah. It's really cool. Yes, absolutely. And he said, you should try this CrossFit thing. He said, I have a CrossFit games. He's like, you go win the CrossFit games, you'll forget all about the Gladiators. So I said, all right, show me this. So we went into the office and he pulled up the website and the workout of the day, that day was Tommy V. It's a hero workout with rope climbing and thrusters. Had no idea what thrusters were. Was good at rope climbing. Attempted this. I tore up my leg because when you climb a rope 20 times and you don't climb the rope, you tear up your leg. But I was happy with my, proud of my battle wound and went home, looked up CrossFit and at the time it was really just the black box in Manhattan and CrossFit South Brooklyn. And signed up for elements or foundations class the next day. And you know Stacy Rudnitsky. Of course. We started out on the same day and we started together. Training partners for a couple of years. Still training partners when we can be. So we started the next day and the 2008 games were 13 weeks later. So I was like, here we go. So you started doing CrossFit 13 weeks before the CrossFit games in 2008. Which 2008 is really the year it blew up, right? 2007 it was still kind of a good old boys club. It was. And this is when I started getting attacked for my diet. So I did my CrossFit level one Memorial Day weekend. I started on right after St. Patty's Day. So you went and got CrossFit level one certified. On Memorial Day. The coaches are famous. Who are the coaches? Nicole Carroll. Of course. The whole crew was there. But Glassman and Annie got a call after I did Fran that day. So Nicole called Annie to tell Annie I beat her friend time. Oh my God. So I do my level one. I go to the level one. All excited. I drove down to Charlotte from New York. And you're doing your level one. How long have you done CrossFit when you went to get the level one? Nine weeks. So St. Patty's Day to Memorial Day. Is that about nine weeks? So I want to say I was the first definitely the first female whatever maybe the first person to do is sub three minute Fran at a CrossFit server. Sub three minute Fran. And this is in early 2008. Correct. Early 2008. So CrossFit still relatively small at that time. And afterwards the funny story is not that it's when somebody took a peanut butter and jelly sandwich out of my hand and told me I was killing myself and going to get diabetes. So I do this Fran. Everybody's got their zone. I guess more zone. But zone paleo and stuff. Weighing the stuff, counting their almonds in the car. And I remember going outside and somebody offering me almonds and something the CrossFitters used to make with like a date and an almond and a piece of bacon or something. And they're all counting their stuff. And I had a peanut butter and jelly sandwich a chocolate milk and a banana. And they just sat and looked at me. And this girl was like, that's going to kill you. Yeah. We did. What's your Fran time? Right. And how did you do? How'd it go? I came in third. But I was, so there was only one event on day two when I was in first after day one and I was pretty sure I had day one. I was pretty sure I had it locked down. You were going to win the whole thing. You have to get this. Well, there was one event left. And I was, and then two awesome athletes or whatever. The next day was a heavy grace, which is not heavy at all anymore, but it's 30 clean and jerks for time. And at the time the weight announced was heavier than we were accustomed to. And that was the year that the theme was every second counts. So your score was the, basically just the sum of all of your times. So the person with the lowest time won. So every, it was all timed events. And then they both got in front of me. Yeah, who won that year? Was it Bill Hennigar's one? Yeah. Yeah, that's right. What's your name? Katie Monner. Yeah. Crazy. And who took second? Tony Wagner. Oh yeah, that's right. Crazy. And then it really exploded. And you got offered, didn't you get offered an under armor? I did. Out of that, right? Yeah. Which is a pretty big deal. So they were kind of talking under armor at the time. Maybe the under armor was there at the games. They didn't have the big title sponsor. Reebok hadn't signed on. No, all of our gifts were under armor gifts that would come at the time. It was what we got. And it was an awesome time. But I think. Who loves costumes? Who loves shoes? I've already picked up on this. So then shortly after that, it wasn't too long after that. I got hurt. What'd you injure? So I used to train. Do you know Rob Orlando? Of course. Okay. So I would go up to Connecticut. We'd do a bunch of stuff. And he talked me into, this was another fundraiser. So I did something for Hope for the Warriors. And at the time, like muscle-ups were considered hard. Like, and I was like. They're still hard. So I did this thing. I was like, I'm going to raise money for Hope for the Warriors and veteran stuff. I'm like, I'm going to do 100 muscle-ups. And every time, for every whatever it was, and we had a big event at CrossFit Long Island City. And during the training for this, I started getting some shoulder and like nerve problems and stuff, but I was ignoring it. So, which is not, I mean, that's an unhealthy movement for the shoulder. And at the same time, Rob had come up with some ridiculous workout, like, you know, 50 body weight cleans and 50 body weight push press, whatever, some ridiculous thing for a time. And we were filming it. So he had put it out there and both of us like failed at doing it the first time. So we kept going back and trying to do this workout. Well, we were filming me doing this workout and like Mac noticed that I kept shaking this hand and I couldn't feel my right hand, but I like, I knew I was using it. I'm still going. I'm like, and he knows I won't quit. I'll die before I quit. I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing, but I'll die out there. So I'm like, I don't feel my hand. I don't really feel my face, but I know that they're still there. I know my face is there. So, but that's, oh no, the first responders treated it like a stroke. They thought you had a stroke. That came a little bit later. So anyhow, get through the workout, having these weird symptoms. I go to train a client and I went to load a barbell and I picked up a 25 pound plate and just twisted with it. Well, looking at somebody and stuff and I thought somebody shot me. I felt like a pain through my chest and back and heat shoot up my face and I couldn't move my right arm and my right side of my like mouth was kind of slack and it just like a nasty cervical thoracic like just discs that were pretty messed up. So that kind of took me, that scared me. It took about three months before I was able to like really touch a barbell again. And it really made me think cause I had never been out my whole life. My whole life, all I've ever known is being an athlete and to think about who you are in the absence of that and what your worth is and your value and all that stuff. So I wrote, did a lot of writing during that time. But when I came back, I started to be a little bit more intelligent. So I still cross fit for the next year and a half for two years, but I was no longer competitive cause I was no longer willing to take that kind of risk. Wow, and that's 10? That was 11. I was still tinkering with cross fit between yeah, up until that point. And then I started coaching you in 12 maybe, is that right? Or 13, somewhere in that ballpark? Yeah. Somewhere there. And you started powerlifting. I did in 11, yeah. And then we set the, you became the number 1148 in the world. Only for a short time. As you do. As you do. And which had nothing to do with the coaching. But that was... If there was ever anyone that I can take zero credit for whatsoever, it's you. You were. I listened to you. It was amazing. I can remember you, I was, you would report back to me what you had eaten and you'd be like, I ate, you know, I had Oreos. There's like three rows of Oreos. She's like, but I had two of the rows. That's nothing. And then she would go, but listen, it's okay because I told the carbs. I told all the sugar to go to the muscle cells, not to the fat cells. I talked to them and they, and then, and she would never get above about 6% body fat. There's more to that story. So people always tease me. I started, I got hate mail and cross fit. There's a crossfit video of me doing some crazy workout and stuffing down like street hot dogs immediately following it. And on one episode of CrossFit Radio, I talked about my poor diet and got physical hate mail about just that, you know, our children listen to you and whatever and you're eating all of this stuff. What a terrible role model you are eating hot dogs. I had this story that I would tell just because it would make Peter like, she's just crazy. And people would say, well, you eat anything. I said, yeah, I was like, you know, I was born with Elvis died or whatever the summer of 77 and the ghost of Elvis lives in my cells and he does his little dance and turns partially hydrogenated oils, artificial colors, flavors, trans fats, all into muscle. And I would just say, people, this is crazy. That was it. Yeah. So, man, so you've done everything. What's next though? Well, the pull up thing, but the powerlifting thing interestingly enough, my squat was probably to me my most emotional physical goal ever because I'm strong. So people don't realize that I fear heavy loads because heavy is relative. So my biggest fear is getting under a heavy barbell and that's not something that people would know. So hitting a heavy squat for me was probably the most emotional profound thing because it was the one thing that I was terrified of. I don't want to say it because I'll get kind of picked on again, but I will probably step back on stage this year in bodybuilding. Yep. I'll already be losing weight for pull ups. Right. Yeah. So you kind of focus on strength through about 2014, 2015. And that's the, yeah. And then you started to focus on bodybuilding. Was there a coach there in your North Carolina, kind of the Crystal Coast area of North Carolina? And was there a coach there that sort of got you involved in bodybuilding? I had a great coach, but it was a client that walked in to learn. So Mac had deployed, I had hit some big numbers with you. What were those numbers? My meat numbers are all time. Either they're close. So some of them are the same. So my biggest squat was in a meat and it was 400. Biggest meat bench was 281. Gym bench was 285. Deadlift, 485. And my press is whatever, still stuck. I hit 185 for it. A double. Right. You hit 185 for a double, strict press. Female. I had to look over there at my wife. Yeah. Charity's chasing you. Charity's the second best presser in the country. So that's good. So you started to focus on bodybuilding. And I remember you telling me that and I was like, this girl eats sleeves at Oreos. It's not going to work. Yeah, all you have to do is just eat one sleeve. Right. And tell that sleeve to just go to the muscle cells and how bad can it be? I did the diet for real. Yeah, you did. I remember. A girl walked into my gym. You saw it. You saw it live at the Arnold in 2016. I did. I came inside the Arnold. So a girl walked into my gym and she wanted to learn how to squat so that she could grow her legs for figure competition. And she saw me and at that time I had hit some big numbers and I was scared and Mack was deployed and I didn't have a training partner and I was getting the anxiety. You know, when it's like you put so much pressure on yourself that you get yourself sick over it and I would get myself sick over squatting and I a little bit needed to mental break. It just was something that I, again, I wanted me to the training partners on my own. And she's like, you should consider physique. It's a new category. I think you would do really well. So she came there for me to teach her. So physique is now, so they've moved away from women's bodybuilding. So it's sort of like ginormous. Like in the, lots of people are not super happy about where men's bodybuilding has gone with these guys with like massive sort of growth hormone guts and like enormous drug usage and stuff like that. And so they actually got sort of rid of women's bodybuilding to not encourage that style of body work. And so physique was the more muscular step above what's the one doing that. So it's above figure, but it was sort of initially supposed to be like throwback bodybuilding of sort of the golden era, like Cory Everson's like kind of from that time. So a little bit softer, not striated, not clean lines, good aesthetics, more natural of a look than women's bodybuilding. And so that became the replacement of women's bodybuilding. And it's sort of changed a little bit again. And I never intended that to be anything other than one show. So that was just sort of like, well, I'll just get back on out there. So that kind of snowballed into something a whole lot bigger than that, that I wasn't expecting it to be. So I competed, I wanna say I did the North Carolina State show, won that. And then you go to like a national show, the first national show I think I came in. In PC show? Yeah, so there's like, there's, I don't wanna get the number wrong cause someone's gonna come and tell me that I got the number wrong, but there's several national shows a year. And if you win a national show, you get your pro card, but the national shows have like the year that I did North Americans, there's 1,300 competitors. So it's a pretty dense field. So I ended up going pro after three shows, like it took... Going pro was code for I won one of those. I won, yeah, well you win a state show, then you win a national show, then you're a pro. An IFBB pro. Right. Yeah, so first off, there are lots of federations of bodybuilding. Right. And the only one that really matters is the NPC and IFBB, right? Right. The NPC. The theater body for that. The theater, right. Powerlifting sort of has a similar sort of thing with an IPF is the only thing that ultimately matters sort of at the world level. And so you went into the best federation in the United States as an amateur. There's a handful of national competitions every year for NPC national bodybuilding competitions. You won one of those and you won your IFBB pro card. Correct. So now you're like, got into this thing is just sort of a fun hobby for a show or two. And the next thing you know, you've blinked and you've got an IFBB pro card and now you're a pro bodybuilder. In nine months. But what happened was it added, which I hate this about it because I was the same coach when I was, I had the same credentials. I had the same knowledge, the same skill set. You can't teach this one any better as an IFBB pro than you can. But all of a sudden I triple used some pretty pictures of me on the internet. I could triple my prices for my online program. Good. People respond. And that was upsetting to me at the time. You should have called me. But it definitely gave my brand and my business a level of visibility and stuff and brought new clientele in. And again, it happened much faster than it was only gonna be a show. But I kind of pursued it for the last couple of years. I've come in it and out of it. And that's primarily because it is all-encompassing. I always train. I never miss training. I've trained for, I started gymnastics at two. I'll be 41 next week. And other than a couple of injuries that took me out, I have never stopped. And even those injuries were brief. So tell us about your business. I owned a gym. It's also a CrossFit affiliate in Emerald Isle, North Carolina. Called. What's the name? It's called. You're bad at this part. I know. Good at the story. It's bad at the marketing. Crystal co-strength and conditioning. What's the website? These people from Queens don't have a G in strength. Strength, I know. Strength. You say the G in strength? Yes, it's in there. It's not a, yeah. You're like strength. By the way, if you think she has a strong Queens accent, you should hear her sister. Her sister and her mom. And yeah, so I've got to take the whole family before it's pretty funny. I got to go to the childhood home. Dating out at school. And your sister actually, your sister for somebody who's like, this person isn't real and really strong too. She got really, she's, and both of you guys have these sort of very small frames. You know, you're, I said you're lying about being 5'4". I don't know if you're actually lying about being 5'4". But your, your frame is small. So like the fact that you're 160 at your frame is, that's a, you've got a lot of muscle. And your sister has a smaller frame than you do. Like she's got a little bitty frame, but she got really strong too. Super strong. Like she dead lifted, I'd say 340 at like 105. 340 at 105. Yeah. I'm strong. Close to that. I could be off. She let her call you. Somewhere in the ballpark. Yeah. So Crystal Coast. Strength and conditioning. Right. Yeah. So how do they find you so they can give you money? How do they? What's your athlete, like Instagram, Facebook? So I have a couple. I have my gym business and then I have my personal online business, which I probably do more bodybuilding, consulting stuff with that. So what's my, what's the question? Wow. I just promote yourself. Promote yourself. I like doing that. No, that's fine. We'll make you some money. So you are on Instagram. What's your Instagram handle? Jillian word athlete. They need to follow that. Word athlete with a G. Yes. It's lots of fun. There's lots of chin-ups and dogs and. And stands all the way up. Pull ups with like 200 pounds of chain, hanging from her and stuff like that. Playground hijinks still. Yep. Yep. It's fun. Yeah. Sometimes you just go to the playground and have fun and still like do crazy stuff. I'm like the Pied Piper I go and then all the little kids follow me and we just walk around doing stuff. You do like the human flag thing. Yeah. It's kind of cool. So you've got to, we've got to have you out to Springfield. My daughter, Kaylin, you would be her, her hero. She does gymnastics 24 hours a day, seven days a week. She's like, it's insane. And she's always like, I want daddy, I want you and mom to come do gymnastics with us. Of course I can't. There's no part of me. You could go and you could crush her. I want you to crush her in gymnastics so that she can be like, oh my gosh, here's a 41 year old. But that's the thing is like with kids, it's to have it be play and have it be fun. Yeah, but she's 13. She's not really a kid anymore. She's beat her up. No, I mean, she's starting to get to the point where she's serious about it. She's no little kid. Now, Kinsley, she does gymnastics all the time too, but also just has fun with it. But if you came out and stayed at the house, we did some YouTube videos, they would be like, what? I mean, you've done that before. And they, so you've met my kiddos, but they weren't into gymnastics like they are now. So now they'll be fun. I'd love to. Yeah. Got the trampoline. You come out and like do crazy trampoline tricks. We'll get them on video. Yeah. So how do they find you? Jillian Ward athlete? Yep. How else? Crystal coast and conditioning. Is that what it is on Instagram? Where we are CrossFit Emerald Isle. Okay. You're right. And Crystal Coast strength and conditioning. And it's Crystal Coast SC and CrossFit CFEI. I should know that. Strength is with a G. Strength with a G. I was blaming on being a little congested, but I think I'd say it that way anyhow. This has been an hour with Jillian. We're going to do another one though. Yes. This is a blast. Thank you for having me. Everybody that knows you, you are literally the best athlete. Anybody that knows you, you're the best athlete they've ever met. And no one ever says that when you ask about who is Jillian Ward, that says she's one of the sweetest humans who's ever lived. And so I think that's really cool that you can have such an athletic resume. But the thing you're known for is what a wonderful human you are. So thank you for being that. Thanks for doing the show. You also have some experiences that nobody else can really pull from. And so, because you've been at the top of the game in multiple sports, as Scott was saying last night that you probably don't get, I don't know if this is true, but you probably don't get the credit you deserve for being as smart as you are because of the way you look. Like you look so strong and like the first thing people think when they see you is like, wow, there's a super strong lady or there's this amazing athlete. And they don't think like, that's a super smart lady, but you are super smart. I would absolutely agree with that. I've always wanted to have a voice in the industry, but I think you're right that people see me and they look at the things that I can do. And not that they don't think I have a voice, but they're dismissive. They kind of write me off as a one awful. She's just a freak or she's just something else other than that. But the truth is that I have all of the knowledge and all of the years of work that went into it and a ton of things to speak to you about it. But most of the time, nobody asks me any questions. Yeah. I wanna ask you some questions. You said that you wanted to talk about everybody's strength in women. Yes. So go. Okay. And that's another thing where when I wanna address the subject, people are like, well, you're an exception. So what can you speak to? But I didn't start out this way. That's right. Do you have a specific question about it? No, I just wanna hear. I want you to just dump your head out into that microphone. Yeah. Well, I mean, so we know strength naturally comes much more naturally on lower body lifts to women and especially for a while they can sort of keep up with men because of the musculature around the hips for a woman. But you really see that difference between men and women grow and grow and grow in the upper body pieces. And women really struggle with upper body strength. So how do you approach that? So there's nothing you're gonna do about the hormonal differences, but for upper body strength in women, I mean, what we need to address is muscle mass and hypertrophy. And I think especially when a woman gets done, let's say with linear progression and overwork, there needs to be some amount in my opinion of addressing hypertrophy work. And some of the time they just wanna continue to do the lifts and that doesn't work. Not that the lifts alone don't work, but volume and intensity need to be addressed with that. A larger muscle is gonna produce more force. So I do a lot of with my women a lot of hypertrophy kind of work and kind of teach them that it's in addition to the plan but the key is to start doing some of that stuff early and what I find a little lot of stuff that helps for that and they're not so opposed to doing is additional body weight exercises, chins, push-ups, dips, pull-ups, dips, and doing it in higher volume for women. Meaning like three sets of 12, five sets of 10, like that much or? Sometimes even more. Sometimes three sets of 20, like even higher reps. And a woman's not gonna produce like a true one RM. So I work and they could recover from some of their muscle endurance is so much greater. So we know a set of 20 for a woman is very, very different than a set of 20 is for a man. And so much of our programming is designed around and studied around men. So with the women, I'll generally do sets upwards of 15 in the 20 max sets with women and they can recover from it. They're using a lesser amount of their muscle fibers. And so we get 15 to 20 in your chins, assisted chins a lot of times. 15 to 20, but even in any of the, just even to support the joints women or maybe it's because of less hormonal but also less muscle mass. There's more mobility. They're hypermobile in some joints. So some of the stuff that I do with the hypertrophy work is just to support the shoulder joint and stuff. I mean, you do a press or something like you want a strong solid joint and hmm, where am I going with this? So what would you do with the shoulders? So what are some of the exercises you choose to build those shoulders to the point that it, it kind of tightens that capsule up just a tad on women. So I will always prioritize with the women, obviously the main lift and the stuff will come after that. But oftentimes I'll do an antagonistic movement first, even if it's to warm it up, like if you're going to bench press, if I've given you an example, and this is not even specifically for women, but if I'm going to bench press that day and something I'll stretch the pecs open that and I will do some antagonistic movement like rows or something from my back prior to getting on the bench. So doing all of that volume. So I've done, you know, I tell you there's times that I do five to 10,000 pushups a week or you know, right now a thousand pullups a week and my joints are fine. So how is that possible? There are people that do far less volume than that and there's just kind of continuing to balance the joint. So again, if they're going to do bench press prior to that, if bench press was the main lift for the day for a woman, what I would do is some kind of pulling exercise first, nothing crazy, maybe three sets of ring rows or something. I would bench them at whatever the requirement was for the day and then after that I may do, you know, three or four sets of max pullups and flies or some tricep exercise, but I would continue some small amount of hypertrophy work that doesn't interfere and I could figure out how much of that to do based on the response of their lift the next time. So if I'm doing so much that it affects their ability to make progress, I'm doing too much, but if there's, if they're continuing to progress, I could continue to step it off. And the way I know that there's no specific, it's a little bit of art and a little bit of science. The way I know that is just keeping really accurate logs of it. What did you do last time? What was the accessory work that we did last time? How are you feeling? Do you have any pain? You know, those kinds of questions, you made progress, we put five pounds on your bench. Okay, let's take that from 12 reps to 15 reps or let's add five pounds. How do you deal with soreness in the beginning and do the women get really, I would assume they get really sore and they start knowing it. So do you sort of titrate up that volume or do you let them like, hey, you're just going to be sore for a couple of weeks and then your body's going to get used to it? So soreness is something I take seriously, especially coming from CrossFit and the amount of injuries that occur and people that will wrap do it themselves. And I mean, soreness is obviously going to come from, you know, large amounts of volume, anything somebody is not accustomed to or big eccentric. So I will be very, very same way as you would do with linear progression. I will start somebody, I'm not going to start somebody with three sets of 20 pushups on their first day. I'm going to start with sets of eight and then the next time maybe sets of 10 or next time sets of 12 because if somebody can't do the next workout, then it wasn't worth it. So pretty conservative when it comes to that. How much has changed about your programming? I would assume a lot of this from a theory standpoint has sort of changed as you've converted from powerlifting to bodybuilding for a while and then back to strength training and the body weight stuff. And did you look back at your younger life and say, well, that's really what I was doing with all the body weight stuff. And then I also then came back and did that with a dedicated sort of passion as a bodybuilder but not maybe with as much body weight stuff with more sort of traditional bodybuilding movements. And then you've started to work that in in your strength training, programming now for your clients, is that what has happened? So for me, it's come full circle. My background was obviously being a gymnast so that is all body weight exercise and being a gym rat, which I'll call bodybuilding exercise. So when I stepped into powerlifting, I would say I was already at a fairly high level because I did have the muscle mass and I had some amount of them, the strength came, it was there already. So there was a lot of learning technical stuff but I don't think I would have been the powerlifter that I was had I not been laying down 20 years prior to that of that type of training. When I got into powerlifting, I sort of let those movements go. And I was like, you know, just focus if I can't get my squat tomorrow, you know, like maybe I shouldn't walk the three blocks today. Everything became about conserving energy. Well, we'll get the mail. Right, exactly. And when I realized was, you know, I was tight all the time, my mobility was lacking, that there was a way. So for a while, you know, I started when I crossed it, I did everything. I was like, this, this and this more is better. And then I almost went the other way where it was like less is more quality. And over time, I've achieved a balance where you prioritize what's important, main lifts and then see how much of the other stuff you could add to that. And the only way to know, I consider it highly individual is to keep really good track of it. Yeah. So tell us about that. So you were telling me earlier that you've kept meticulous training logs for a while. I have. I started my first training log when I was in fifth grade. Again, I worked out after gymnastics practice at night in my bedroom. And I really didn't know what I was doing. So I did everything I could think of every single day. And I wrote it all down and in the training logs. And I think at the time, it had nothing to do with learning, but it had to do, it was just kind of like, you know what, sometimes you'll read a book and you want to keep it and like, I did that, you know, this is something I've done. And I did not keep it initially to learn from it. I kept it because like a journal, it was my history. I was gonna say it's like, it was like your diary. It was, it was my accomplishment, but it became essentially a diary and a training log. So how I felt about the workout if I was in a bad mood when I went into it, you know, there's little doodles, I'll put a smiley face. I was feeling good today. I had a fight with my mom before I did this today. They're really important to me. I gave one to, you know, our shared one with Mac many, many years ago, it was a really big thing because they're very personal, but I'll go back and look at what it was often, you know, at this time, this is when I PR'd my squat, you know, for the three months leading up to it, you know, was there an injury, other stuff? So the more detail you could put in a training log, the better it is. Do you write in the training log while you're training or after you're training or that night or what? Sometimes both. Sometimes I'll write in it. I'll usually jot down what I'm doing or put it someplace and then I'll make. And I don't, they're not always kept with this type of accuracy. My training is in there, but in terms of how I felt and other stuff throughout through time, you know, sometimes I'm better at it the way somebody would be in keeping a journal. I didn't know what the time, I didn't know the word RP or what that meant, but I would have my way of saying how difficult that was. Or if I lost focus on the squat and I was thinking about what I want to eat for dinner and whatever it is, I would write that in there. Yeah, that's good. In fifth grade, that I wasn't. And every year since then, right? So I mean, you've just always kept those. I've always kept logs. At some point I realized, I think years later, and again, a lot of people don't ask me questions because they write me off as sort of being like an N equals one. Like, well, what you say isn't applicable, you know, because you can, who else is gonna do something like this? But, you know, I have 30 years of data. Yeah. So. Yeah, and actually I think both sides of that argument are probably, there's some fairness to both sides, right? There are probably some things about you specifically that aren't super applicable to everybody else, but there's also a lot of stuff that is. And so this idea of training women for hypertrophy to build muscle mass, especially for women who struggle to build muscle mass, is clearly applicable. And training logs are applicable to everybody. Like, this is a, who hasn't benefited from training logs? I'll tell you what's very applicable to everyone. You talked about panic and the squad. Yeah. Stress and the squad or anxiety about squatting. And everybody has that, except for just a few mad people, just crazy people. Yeah, and those guys are sometimes the best squatters in the world. Yeah, you know who they are. The best squatter I ever trained with wasn't remotely scared of any weight that was ever on the bar ever. And the guy was super smart. So it wasn't like he was just a big dumb, just didn't understand even. Like this guy was super smart. He just didn't have that governor in his brain. And so here you are, top of the sport in multiple sports, and you've always struggled with fear under the bar, specifically with the squad. And I'll tell you what that's about. It's not fear of getting injured, and it's not a fear of failing. It is a fear of quitting. My biggest fear when it comes to that is that one day, like when I get under the bar and go down, what if I have it in me? Not to give everything. So my biggest fear in the squad is actually giving up. This story goes back. I was in about fifth or sixth grade, and I was at gymnastics practice, and I was afraid of what I was doing on the balance beam. I was doing a tumbling pass and I got scared. And I intentionally threw the last thing off the beam because I was like, well, if I do a layout and I completely go off the beam, at least I won't get as hurt as if I straddle the beam. And I essentially quit that day. I didn't quit for good, but I quit on myself that day. And the coach like ended the session and the stuff and saw that I was quitting and giving up. And it was the worst feeling I ever had. And when I sat and waited for my mom that day and made a promise, I'm like, I will never, ever, ever quit. And that, my fear when I get under this squat bar, and it is, it's panic and other stuff, is what if, what if I chicken out? My biggest fear is chickening out because if I do it once, it's easier to do it again. Is that weird? No, I mean, you said that was fifth grade? Can you imagine to be able to go back and when you were sitting on that bench waiting for your mom to pull up, to have any idea of the impact that afternoon would make on your life? It's pretty, that's pretty weighty. There's some weight there. Squatting is where, for me, where it comes up. I don't know what about that more than like squatting. I make the commitment and stuff before, there's so much psychological stuff. And I'm like, I'll make, like I'll get into his own and stuff before I get under the squat bar. And I literally, it, this sounds very strange. I'm sure that I'm imagining it and stuff, but I stopped hearing everything on the outside and like, I'll be like, okay, this is where everything is. I could feel the blood in my body, I feel my heart beating and stuff and just get, this is back to the Elvis and my cells, whatever. I will like talk to like that, like everything that I need to use for the squat and like this really, like I'm gonna do this and nothing is in my mind. Like I don't hear anything. I don't see anything. Like I mean, a bomb could go off on the other side of the room. Can you hear coaches coach you when you're in the middle of a lift? Only if it's a voice that I'm tuned into. So if somebody is motivating me or sometimes I hear nothing, you know, people talk to me about the pushups. And if I heard everybody screaming and other stuff and if, you know, I heard my mom wanting to stop me and I don't. So if it's a voice that I've been trained to hear throughout my training, I will pick up on that. But if there's a bunch of the people in the room saying, get it, other stuff, whatever they're yelling at me, no. Nothing, yeah. That's wild. That is the only way that I may be similar to Jillian. If people on Instagram are like, what music do you listen to when you work out? I'm like, it doesn't matter, I can't hear it anyway. Right, yep. Could be anything. Except I was at a public gym one time. I was getting ready to bench press and Desperado cable one. You crushed it? I'm like, this is not gonna work. Oh. Desperado. It's not a great song. It's not a bench song. Oh, I could bench now. But I'm more of a witchy woman bench press guy. Yeah, it's a witchy woman, it's a freaky song. I'm kind of OCD when it comes to music. Not just music, it's fun. I don't, I know I'm OCD with a lot of stuff, but I don't know why, and by the way, I know that I have clients that do this, and you probably do too, when I hit heavy, scary sets, heavy enough in any lift that's scary, almost always I have to play Metallica's Bleeding Me. I don't even know why. I don't listen to that style of music. I'm too old to listen to that style of music. It's just something about that song specifically has become the thing like it's familiarity. And so when it plays, and I don't hear it while I lift, and I also don't get really amped up before I lift. As a matter of fact, I actually like to sniff ammonia or some nose torque or whatever, but I don't use it. If you watched me, as a matter of fact, when people watch me at the gym and I take a little whiff of that, it's not what they're used to seeing on powerlifting meets and stuff where people sniff it and the yell and make noise. Like I never make noise. I never do anything. I don't want to be slapped. I don't want to be hit me in the back. I mean, none of that stuff, but... So I have a funny slap story. It's a good one. It needs to be told. And I worked with the strength coach on Jim Steele out of U Pen for a little while and he was trying to teach me to be aggressive and I didn't understand what that meant. So I saw everybody slapping each other and I was like, oh, maybe that'll work. So we were out in the garage in Virginia and that's where Mac and I trained and I asked him to slap me and he's like, I'm not doing it. I was like, just hit me. Like in the face, just hit me. And he's like, I am not picking a hand up to you. And I begged him to slap me before I squatted to get excited about it. And he did very, very lightly. I wouldn't even call it a slap. And you know, my response was, I burst into tears. And I had never been hit in the face. I didn't know that was gonna be my right reaction. And I was like... And then he felt terrible. He felt terrible and it was not, I was expecting to get excited and get amped up and instead I cried. That's funny. I don't actually get amped up. I actually try to slow everything down. Yeah, me too, I do. And that's what it is. Even with like the snort pneumonia or the song, the song isn't a super amped up, get it really loud and get all jacked up. It's a, there's a familiarity and like, this song says, and there's even certain measures of the song. Like there's a 20 second range of that song that it goes, this is where I get hyper focused and then the same thing happens. And everything goes away. And then as soon as the bar comes out of the rack, I don't even hear the song. Like it's all, that stuff's all gone. It's weird. It's weird the way the mental kind of psyche. So I wanna talk for a second about maybe something that is not as applicable just for a minute to our listeners. Oh, she's got super nervous. Did you see it? No, that is that you have an ability to control at least when it appears blood pressure, heart rate, breathing patterns, all of these things that are nearly impossible for anybody else to control. You're able to control those, not just while you're sitting here like doing a podcast, but under extreme physical duress. I do. How are you able to do that? Do you have any idea? And I could watch like if I go. And it's just for the Elvis and for sales. I do, there's a, so when I was a child, I was always obsessed with people with incredible feats of strength. How could somebody walk on their hands for a mile or how could somebody, just how are these things possible? I'd say it, I'd read the Guinness Book of World Records. I'm like, I can do that one and I wanna do that one. But what I wanted to do was study how did these people do that? There's something beyond the physical and just that physical and mental like how they kind of come together. So I was obsessed with like Greek and Roman philosophers and the merging of, you know, the mental and the physical and I would study the people that were able to do these things and what it was, you know, read about what it was that they were thinking and how they managed that and, you know, did a lot of work on my mind. And the other thing is when I do these physical feats, I also do mental rehearse. You could only train so much. So when I did the pushups, I would lay in bed and I would visualize myself doing 1,200 pushups at the pace I was doing and just thinking about the training. Cause I could train, you know, a couple hours a day my body's only gonna handle that but my mind could continue to do that. And this is something, it's crazy but I've been doing that kind of since I was a kid. So when you visualize that or do you think about the fatigue? Like I never, I don't think about the fatigue. I think that we set limits on ourself. Like, you know, we say, this is what the norm is and this is what, and I think is there's so much about the human body that we don't know. You know, it's like, well, this is what your blood pressure should be and this is what your heart rate should be. Why? Like when I go to the doctor's office, when they sometimes they kind of get scared or whatever like they'll go to take your pulse or whatever it is and sometimes I'll like, I'll bring mine down. And it's like, well, it started out at 70 and now it's 48 or whatever. And the contrast is there. By the way, I do that all the time. I do it on my blood pressure too. But I can't do it while I'm training. I can do it. I've done that before laying in bed or in a hospital bed and you're hooked up to the actual monitor and you have a blood pressure monitor and you can play with your pulse and ramp your pulse up just sitting there and ramp your pulse. I did it while I was doing the pushups and it's really all about staying calm. And part of that comes back to where I said that I only think of the number one. So all of that, under anxiety, I will not be able to do any of those things. So there's the physical stress but there's additional mental stress like, I can't believe how many more left I have to do or there's three more squats. And that's why I don't think ahead. It's almost like here. This is one chapter. This is one rep, make it perfect, visualize focus. What's your form gonna be? And then that's done, throw it out, move on to the next one. Just years and years of mental training. And that comes from gymnastics and it really comes from, if you mess something up, you need to put it behind you. So I mean, you look at figure skaters, gymnasts, if you're in a routine and you screw up, how often if somebody falls down, do they fall down again? The first time they screw up, you're more likely to screw up again. Doing that one thing and put it away for me really came back to being a gymnast. You screw up in your floor routine, screw up on the beam and then that's in your head. I needed to be able to put that out of my head immediately like it didn't happen and move on. And I think that's where kind of the beginning of it started. Is that where the one more rep? I mean, do you remember the first time that you were telling the story when we interviewed you in the last bit, when you're doing these incredible feats of especially muscular endurance where you've got to do hundreds, if not thousands of reps, you never think about that number. You just think for each one, you think, one more rep, can I just do one more rep? Just focus on one more rep. And you never even think about the next rep. I doubt. This one right now. And that again comes back to people setting limits. Like, well, this is a lot. 50 is a lot or 100 is a lot. Like who says, and I say to myself, and it's funny, I'm like, if my life depended on it, can I do just one? Like how hard is a single push up for me? What amount of my strength or something am I using? It's very psychological. Like people will say, like physiologically, what's different about you? Like let's study your muscle. Let's pull a muscle biopsy. How is it possible that like, that you're capable of doing that? You know, is my muscle, is there something any different, you know, with my different at buffering, black, whatever, in terms of the chemistry of the muscle? I don't believe that I am. I can't absolutely say. And if I am different in some way, it's not, I don't believe anything genetically inherited. I think it just comes from years and years of doing that kind of training. Yeah, yeah. So do you remember the first time as a kid that you had this repetitive thing that you were like, just one more rep, just one more thing? Yes. And the first, the first time we're bred was actually with Brad. Of course it was. So we'll pull it all back to me eating the M&Ms, but the first time that I remember not counting and saying I could just do one more, just one more M&Ms, just one more. It's on the auditorium stage that day, doing the push-ups. Okay. Yeah. That would be the moment. And then do you remember thinking about later or even during like, wait, that worked? Just thinking about, I mean, do you remember actually kind of analyzing that afterwards or even during that that's what you were doing? And I'm gonna use this as a strategy. I do remember analyzing that after it because I remember thinking that when I think towards the end of something, again, you know, still with gymnastics, I'm so worried about something that's gonna happen later. I'm not in the present. So this really all comes down to in any of these things being in the present. So for an example of that is people ask me, like, do you ever take off from training? When I, if I'm physically don't feel well, I'll take off. But if I'm psychologically incapable of being in the present that day, if there's something on my mind where, you know, I could go in and tinker around and, you know, do some accessory work. But if I'm doing serious training and I'm incapable of being in the present in that moment right there, then training is not right for me that day. Yeah, yeah. That's good. There may or may not be any genetic. I'm rambling, aren't I? No, there may or may not be any genetic differences. But your idea about one more rep is this one, just this one, you know, the most important rep is that last one, right? Sure. So that makes your last one much deeper down the hole than anybody else's. And, you know, genetic difference, whatever, doesn't matter if you didn't have that philosophy and that approach to the training. No genetics would matter anyway. So I think, you know, if we can all learn anything from Jillian today, might be to eat your M&M's and just deal with that next rep. You think CrossFit has changed that a lot for training in general? It seems like the things that a lot of the CrossFit athletes, especially the games level athletes have, there seem to be a fair amount of games athletes that have been able to do or replicate a similar sort of mindset that you have, right? Like the Rich Froning is the kind of guy that's just like, he just seems to be thinking, he never really seemed to get checked up. He never really seemed to get anxious. He never fired. And when an event would start, he would never come out in the lead first. He would just pace the next rep, the next rep. And he seemed to have a, going to be able to go into a deeper hole than anybody else would of just. Matt Frazier is the same way. Yeah. He's just boring to watch. Yeah, that's right. Because he's just like, he's just like breaking rocks. Well, I absolutely, and we talk about boring to watch. And I, even as a gymnast, you were not allowed to make facial expressions. Like that's not just what you did. You don't win. I mean, you'll get deductions for like the simplest of things. Those things all cost energy. So when I'm thinking, when I go into something, I don't want to do anything else that costs any energy. And I think when you say boring to watch, you know, do we see, you know, laying down on the floor or flailing around is this stuff is show. These are all things, you know, that people do whatever that cost energy, even running around getting amped up before I'm not being critical of the people that do it. But for me, all energy, everything just goes into that one place. Really good. The squat, which I'm terrible at. And we do it over and over and over again. It's the same damn thing. You just do a low bar squat three times a week, two times a week for decades. And you talk about this sort of meditative approach. For me, the squat is like a Japanese tea service. Like I just have to do it over and over and it's never gonna be right, right? You're just chasing this perfection that you just, you can't have. And I like that about it. I agree. It's all ritual and it's something, training for me is the ritual that guides everything else in my life. Truth is, our lives get crazy when I spin out of control. And what's so special, I said there's just two hours out of the day that I am in control. This is the selfish time. This is the me time. And people are like, do what? Why would you train? Go do something nice for yourself. Go get your nails done or go do this. I said somebody else is in control. That's right. I get this time where nobody else gets to interfere with it and it's very ritualistic. I've even noted, just open like, I put my shoes on the same way. I sit in the same, so every single thing. Sometimes you don't even realize that you do it, but they're very, very important rituals. Of course, yeah. It brings order to the chaos. That's the thing, right? Let me tell you about Charity's Saturday morning training ritual. She's rollerized. She's rollerized. We get started at about 8.30. And she's the, no. Oh man, what is this? She's super bad. There's a lot of stuff that has to be done. Let me just say that. There's a lot of stuff that has to be done before she does her first squat set with the bar. Man, that look is intense. You don't want us to go there. A lot of stuff has to be done. And if it's not done. I'm confused. Is it like warm-ups or you mean like, do you have like a Saturday morning poop or like a Saturday morning delight session with your man before you have to train? Or like, what is it? All those things would make sense. But it's none of those things. Just takes a while. Got some stuff to do. All right. She does not want to be on that. So it kicks off about 8.30 and about seven minutes after 11. Oh yeah. I remember I've gone over there before. We go over there and have a training day and we all train together. Charity doesn't train at all. When everybody's done training, we're like, let's eat barbecue and swim in the pool. She's like, I got to train now. She's like, I got one shoe on. We've been doing a training session for the last four hours. Hey, that's fair. You do that. She's shaking her head now. So I have something to say about that. Yeah, let's hear it. With training, I've learned that I think about how important it is to me. And what I've learned to do is respect everyone else's ritual because they're all individual and unique. You hear that, Amber? Listen, we have no choice but to respect it. But the reason, I'll see somebody, I'll be like, when are they? It takes them six minutes to put on their belt and I'll start getting upset about that. I said, no. I said the only thing I said, I need to give them the same respect and let them do whatever it is. This is their time. So even if it drives me crazy, even if they hold onto the bar for 45 seconds, talking to it before they get underneath it, you know, what would I want somebody to do for me? So it's crazy and it's annoying as any of those things are that I never, ever interfere with anybody else's training ritual. Because nobody's interfering with you talking to the Elvis and your mitochondria. No, no way. Yeah, that's right. That's right. I really do. Tell us more about that. I think that's significant. And I think it's important. Like you say the Elvis thing and it's... Oh, we make it a joke, but it's not, you're serious. I mean, it's not Elvis. Am I serious that it's Elvis? No, I know it's not Elvis or you're serious it's Elvis, but you're really talking to the cells. Like nutritional partitioning and shuttling into where I want it to go. You can at least, you believe it. I do. I think we underestimate and don't do enough with... I think there are people that study the mind and all kinds of stuff. And I think there are people that study the body, but the connection between how powerful, so I don't know that I told you this story, but I was wanting to get hypnotized to read these books on self-hypnosis because I still never pulled a 500 pound deadlift. It just hasn't happened for me several years ago. I was like, do I pay a hypnotist? And I did all this reading on kind of self-hypnosis. So I was like, I've done everything I can physically, everything, all of the training. And you could only do so much more is not always better. But have I done everything I can in my mind? You know, if I put everything I can into that. So when it comes to eating, and this is not an excuse, my diet is poor. That's probably a whole other subject. I believe that there's some amount of control over that. And always have? Yeah, I mean, people will say to me there. When I was in the fifth grade. So food is absolutely fuel. And I kind of take it a little far and make a joke that, yes, would I do better with good nutrition? Absolutely. But I think there's some amount of control. If it's not too private. Yep. Could you give us some of that inner dialogue about what you're telling your inner Elvis? Like, when I tell it for like red dye number four to go to my quads. So it'll be a little talk. So at night, I eat most of my calories late at night. I eat fairly clean during the day. And then I eat three to 4,000 calories of sugar and fat. Some wine, ice cream, cookies, candy, donuts between like nine and 11 p.m. And go to sleep with like chocolate on my mouth. Get it on the pillow. Like breathing like Darth Vader. Probably run a temperature of 103 through the night. So that's eating right there. So maybe to make myself feel better about it. But like as I'm eating it, I'm thinking, I'm like, this is what I'm going to do tomorrow. And I was like, okay, you know that. There was just 200 grams of fat. I'm going to utilize this tomorrow. This is where I need it. But then you visualize your squat. You said that you think about your muscles and what they needed to do. Yes. So what is that like when you're thinking about that? Or do you ever call out to the ice cream under the squat bar or did you have last night and say, hey, I need you right now. So once it's done, I don't. But I visualize less of the next, necessarily the movement for the next day. Like I'll do that as I'm going to sleep if it's an important movement. But I'll visualize like the digestive process and how I want to utilize it and all of the little things that are going on inside in like a gym and other stuff. And they're like little cartoons in my mind. Well, this is happening. That's me. Like I'm like, I can store more glycogen than anybody else say to myself. I'm like, I'm going to store more glycogen than somebody else can. But I'm like, again, who's to say, I feel like we're so limited by what people call the norms. It's like, well, this is what the research says or this is what normal is. But I don't believe I have a normal. Well, it appears that you have, there's something ingrained in your psyche that has made you not accept normal, not just in the physical realm but also even just in the sort of social and cultural realm because we were talking about that. You have been wired to like, you would go, okay. So then I got to high school and there wasn't a physical fitness team. And so I just started a physical fitness team at one of the largest high schools in the country. And then, you know, it's kind of always been this thing. Like, okay, you're not just going to try to beat the push-up record for- There's a place that comes from. Where does that come from? So my father's mom, so my grandmother, she passed away in 93 but she really taught me that don't let anybody set limits on you. You could do anything you wanna do. There's man's role, woman's role, there is none of that. But you know, you be your best self and don't let anybody tell you no or you can't. And that was ingrained in me from a very, very early age. And I really looked up to her, spent a lot of time with her. She was a physical role model. Like she had an exceptional physique. You know, she did hard work and I would watch her in the garden and I'd watch like the sinew and muscles in her legs and other stuff. And she would garden in like little hot pants and you know, and tight blouse and these platform shoes. And I'm like, she's wearing heels in the garden. That's pretty cool. And I remember wearing this a noxious T-shirt when I was five. Anything boys can do, girls can do better. And I was just, I was a little bit of an arrogant little kid, but I was not gonna let anybody tell me that I couldn't do something. Sure. So can I push on this a little bit and even make it a little bit awkward? Okay. It is also clear that you were destined for greatness in a lot of these realms. But the world is also full of people who have been told that they can do anything that they put their mind to and then they go on American Idol and they sing on that first week that you're watching American Idol and they're horrible. They're horrible. They have no pitch. They're tone deaf. Their voice is not pleasing, but they're doing the thing that someone said, you can do anything you put your mind to. What do we do with those people who can never be? They're never gonna be Pavarotti. It's not gonna happen. That mindset works for somebody who's destined for greatness, but there are a lot of people who aren't. But honesty is so, honesty is helpful. I mean, I remember getting to a point in gymnastics where I wasn't gonna go to the Olympics and I always want. I don't want somebody telling me I'm greater to tell somebody they're great. If somebody isn't good at it or doesn't have what it takes, or I mean, I guess they could. I'll tell people. So I coach body, I do prep for bodybuilders or people that won. And some people just don't have the genetic shape and I will be very honest with the client and say, you can be your best. You can go to the next level. You could set your own goals. You can be better than you are now. You will never be this. You will never meet what the current standard is for that. And I mean, I'll wrap it up in a nice package. People were honest with me. There were things that I was not very good at. Sure, that makes sense. So it's, there's a part of that that's sort of dream crushing in its presentation. But sometimes it opens up another dream. Right, right, okay. So you said, you know, don't let anybody tell you no, blah, blah, blah, blah. But then sometimes you have to tell people, it's not a no, but you give them some guidance. Like stare them in a different direction sometimes, or? So there are certain maybe trusted people that can tell us no, maybe. And you can be that trusted person for some people. I think so. And you have gymnastics coach, I guess. I'm guessing that, to your side, it's like you're scared of the balance beam, it's over. I think so. I think there's quite a bit of being self-aware that comes with all of this. I think throughout time was pretty self-aware of, I mean, myself, like the things that, so I, and there were other things that I would, I have other things that I'm passionate about or that I would have rather have done. What, what? I mean, I've never done it. This is gonna shock people if I said it, but if someone's like, if you could wake up tomorrow and be anything, and the funny thing is like, I'm the worst singer on the planet or whatever, but like I would be an opera singer. Like that would be something that- It's the costumes again. No, it is, I would be something in a costume or I would be a pop star or something like that's not something that I'm good at. I've always loved the physical, but sometimes I've banged on one door and I'm like, well, I'm not so good at that and stuff. Like even gymnastics, like gymnastics for me, I was excellent and stuff, but I was never gonna be an Olympian. And so I ended up doing something else, but people are like, you only do the things that you're good at. And it's a little bit of a true statement. I start a lot of things and I'm gonna be honest, I gravitate towards sticking to things that I'm pretty good at. Well, and when you do that, then it's a lot harder for, then you don't have to accept the letting people tell you no, right? If somebody says, like when you're 14 years old and you're a freshman in high school and they say, you can't break the records on the record board and you go, hold on. I know I'm really good at it already, I can do this, but if you're like, hey, what I really wanna do is I'm gonna be a professional opera singer, but you're not a good professional opera singer. So then, does that make sense? Then the no is different. But I have, I guess a point with striving for greatness in anything, it's that it's never for me about comparison. I will see what other people are doing, but I don't compare because I'm like, why compare to somebody else because there's something even beyond that. So like for powerlifting meets, or like people are like, do you go on Instagram and look at what other people are doing? I said, I don't care what other people are doing because that's another limit. Like I don't even wanna think about that. Like what is possible? Forget what somebody else is doing and it's irrelevant and I don't want that coming in and affecting me. So when I'm striving and people are like, well, you're a rival or if you're a champion, it's like, well, you have to beat whatever that person is. And I think it goes so far beyond that. So I don't ever look, the only time I've ever looked at what somebody else is doing is if it's something where they're directly interacting with me like a fight. Like if you're gonna, you know. Like a fight. Right. If you have an opponent that you're physically interacting, you need to be well aware. But if I'm going to a powerlifting meet, how much the girl next to me could squat is irrelevant to me. So I think, well, I'll ask you this. Do you think then that maybe your greatest advantage is the self-awareness that you have? I think two things. My self-awareness. And your inner Elvis. And I sense, honestly, a sense of humor about it all. I don't take it too seriously. I see this as a journey. It's gonna take me, and Wolf was teasing me about my old training log last night that it was called Jillian's Journey. And I do it all. Yep. I just kind of do it all for the experience and for the love of it. And if something is not bringing me joy, even if it's bringing me success, I'll walk away. It's good. Things are bringing value. So I think we're done with this one. It's really good. Go for it. We didn't even mention last time, you went and competed at the, what was the thing the last couple of years, the big super athlete thing? The super league. The super league. Yeah. How did you do it that? No, it's a world champion. I didn't even mention it, it's part of your story. It's part of all the super humans on earth. The super league. Yeah, go look that up. It's crazy. It's crazy. It's like some Vince McMahon, XFL meets CrossFit meets bodybuilding. That's really interesting. So follow Jillian on Instagram. She's at Jillian Ward athlete, right? Yep. And go to crystalcoaststrength.com. Strength with a G. Strength. There you go, that's it. All right. Texas. And you can follow us at barbelllogic, you can go to our website barbell-logic.com and sign up for the newsletter. We'd love for you to come get coaching. We will make you stronger. And go to iTunes, give us five stars, and follow us on YouTube. So we'll be posting videos in addition to these long form podcasts. And so that's our show. Thanks for listening. Thank you for having me.