 Good evening everybody My name is Barry Colfer and I'm the director of research here at the Institute and I can say on behalf of the whole team We're really really happy It's obvious here for this event on if I can find the right page of me notes fresh perspectives a Guide to your career in public service and international affairs. It's really great to have you here and just a quick note for Sarah Burke my colleague and And Evie McCullough and indeed John and Tom from the house staff for putting on such a good show This was Sarah and Evie's brainchild. We've spoken right for a long time. It's trying to a student event So it's really great that it's actually that it's kicking off We have a great panel here before people which I'm gonna who I will introduce in a moment And they're gonna speak for between five and ten minutes. If it's any longer than ten minutes Sarah will start switching the lights on and off But I just wanted to say just a quick note. This is a great opportunity for us as an Institute and To talk to you at this stage in your lives my own career I had a the chance to think about it a little bit when preparing for this event And I worked in politics so worked in the door on the European Parliament and in Westminster And I worked as an academic so worked in universities in the UK in Europe in the EU in the US And I worked in think tanks in London and in Brussels and in Berlin and it's so it was really cool I've had a really nice career, but I remember as a student Being really anxious about like the next move and the right move and I I'm sure you guys are having similar conversations with yourself With your peers that like I wish I was able to tell myself back then that it didn't really matter because people change jobs a lot I changed jobs frequently and I'm sure many of you will as well So if you're anxious or stressed, I guess I encourage you not to but What I what I realized was that for me I had like a handful of conversations over the past 20 years that mattered So call them mentors or call them colleagues But like it was literally moments where I met someone and thinking what you're doing is really cool Or someone who is very supportive and helped you decide the next thing and to open the next door So I guess this is a part of that conversation now. I'm really happy that we're having it with these four Interesting people are gonna first of all hear from Amy Stapleton who I just heard comes from very close to where I'm from It's like East of Ireland. So Amy is a is a policy officer at the migration network Ireland With our colleagues in the ESRI the economic and social research Institute After Amy we're gonna hear from on your early. Thanks for being with us on your only is an administrative officer in the Irish Department of Finance So where thanks for all the public services and for the extra spending Thirdly thirdly, we're gonna call and we're gonna hear from Kevin Colligan Who's a desk officer in the international security policy unit EU common security and defense policy? Political division at the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs a bit of a mouthful that I get it, right? Yeah, and the object is incorrect And then finally we're going to hear from I can still say our own Luke O'Callan white because Luke is now program manager for climate energy and Sustainability our friends of Europe Brussels, but and friends of Europe in Brussels rather But Luke was recently of this parish So Luke worked with our team until until Christmas and we were sad to see him go, but delighted to have him back So they're further doing gonna hand over to a panel you're gonna each speak for like I said Five to ten minutes or so. I'll flap around my arms if it's going for too long But Amy over to you if you'd like to kick off. Yes, sure. Thanks very much. Hello everybody I very much remember being in your shoes. So Hopefully something I say is gonna be interesting for you and ask loads of questions, please So Sarah mentioned to kind of say tell us this is story of the group my career so far Which I think is going to take plenty more turns yet So but basically when I was in school, which is probably before a lot of you are now I was really interested in social justice and human rights issues and it was something that was really played on my mind and worried me how would I kind of work in something like that? I had no idea even how we're to start. I did lots of volunteering and things, but I didn't know where to start So I ended up doing a plan for a program mainly because I saw there was a work placement outside of Europe But it was also called international development and food policy down in Cork and it was very interesting undergrad which You covered lots of different areas policy areas including advocacy education human rights All of everything to do with health. So it's very broad Unfortunately when I when I was kind of going through it. I was like the broader it is the less I know what I want to do So I did my work placement. I was lucky to go over to Kenya and I worked as a kind of liaison officer between the funding organization down in Cork and the organizations the Organizations were working on the ground in Kenya in Nairobi and in the north of Kenya And what I realized there and I suppose it was kind of a kind of key turning point Even though I didn't realize at the time was that I Realized that a lot of organizations going into places like Kenya were coming from a very Western centric perspective And what I really wanted to do was work with people who are in the situations that we were trying to fund Fund projects for was trying to work with them to they knew the best they were the experts and that was really kind of the start So working on kind of peer-led research working on peer-led projects people who are from an area Supporting them to do what they do best and what they know best. So that's kind of After my my undergrad I ended up I didn't have financial support for my master's So I needed funding which is not always easy to find so I would recommend looking at Erasmus Mondus programs not that I'm Doing a big, you know her after them, but they are great because they fund you and Again, I saw that was traveling involved But it was called intercultural mediation and the mediation really takes a box for me because I wanted to work between people Originally, I thought there was kind of a more legal basis But it was actually very different to what I thought it would be which was a positive and a negative at the time I was like, oh, she knew what am I after getting into? So intercultural mediation was focused on migration and the great thing about it was that you could travel So again, I spent every semester over two years was in a different country. So I was in France and Romania Senegal and then back to France and it was a bilingual studies and I very much thought my French was much better than it was and went over with leaving Sir French not higher level and found myself studying political philosophy and migration studies with very little French and doing graphs and all the things that I shouldn't do in the philosophy essay Past the course and but one thing I think was key for me during it And it takes a lot of work, but it was the volunteering aspect of internships And that's one thing just build I wasn't building my CV as I thought about it at the time But getting the experience was key just meeting people meeting organizations I worked with a lot of NGOs and Senegal got to work with the United Nations or office for drugs and crime Just things landed on my lap and I could take part After that I was wrecked so I spent two years traveling and I was absolutely exhausted. So I stayed in Lille where where the masters was based and began lecturing In the university that the masters was on on things like intercultural communication migration studies English language And all the kind of a very random mix of things, but that all kind of fit together Lecturing I was very interested in but it wasn't taken that for me It was always there's a passion drive behind that was there was something there, you know, so And I think it's an interesting thing to think about when your students We set up during the masters program. We set up an organization a student organization That was mainly set up for supporting students as we traveled around in the different countries But it ended up ended up being Because we were in northern France at the time of the jungle if you know about it and Calais and there was a lot of makeshift camps and evictions and a lot of young migrants and asylum seekers found themselves on the street We ended up completely moving to a support role and we actually had a lot of projects that were run by migrant groups for the local community and vice versa, so that was something key for me, so I started really working on the ground and We worked with a lot of policymakers and Local government to try and for example find housing for young people and young migrants who had nowhere to live So when we were doing this that was all great, but I found that it was constantly one step forward two steps back So we were getting somewhere and then there was more people arriving the government would change their policies and things would shift So I said what am I going to do and I started thinking about it Then I was slowly getting now I'd been in France for about and traveling for quite a number of years and I was getting them the call home You know you start to kind of go okay at some point. I want to kind of move back towards home I miss the family bit And I started a PhD so I started PhD which is ongoing and we'll finish soon But the PhD basically worked with the people in France And the PhD is shifted completely from what I planned it to be it was supposed to be comparative and that was a terrible idea And it's now just focus on fans But basically it's it's finally moving towards Supporting the young people again get involved in the policy decisions and they've actually been co-researched in the study And one of the things that we had I kind of skipped over but While I was in that organization in France and why we ran that student organization We linked up with different policymakers at the local level national level But also we started to link up with the Council of Europe and that's somewhere I think if you're anyway interested in in kind of European affairs look at the Council of Europe training programs There is a huge amount of training programs there that you can actually get a huge amount of experience from it's all covered financially Like you just go you're not paid, but you're reimbursed and I got a huge amount of experience there and I've been working with them ever since so now I'm consulting with the Council of Europe at the moment and into May 2021 I started working with the SRI so the Economic and Social Research Institute as a European Migration Officer Where we also it's kind of slightly different so it's less kind of local level But we work with national government and different NGOs for example on policy and research and we that feeds into the European Commission policy decisions as well, so it's it's another way of I suppose Trying to link up different levels of policy making different levels of decision making things like that So that's a very quick whistel store. I don't know if I've gone over time I don't know if I've made sense But that's the kind of things that I've been doing over the last few years I skipped over certain things that I don't find so interesting At least for me, but maybe they were But that's the type of things so I was doing so I suppose for me to sum up the thing I would think about I had no idea I'd end up here I would have loved to know I would have been here And in the kind of career trajectory I am but I think staying adaptable was key and kind of trusting What your God is telling you if you like at one point I didn't mention it, but I worked in a bank for a year It was not for me It was a great experience But it wasn't for me and I remember thinking I could be here in ten years sign very comfortable very happy with life But I missed that flame and it's the flame that for me was something to search And I think when you're working in any way to do European there's a lot of travel often So it's something that if you feel the flame kind of follow it and trust your God a little bit That's what I said if you're the flame follow it. That's very nice Tell us a little bit. No, it is very nice. I can identify with that as well. You mentioned Erasmus Mundi So Rasmus Mundi's program. It's a European Commission funded program master's level So when I say Erasmus a lot of people you're on Erasmus. It's a great party year I'm like, no, no, there's actually masters and it's genuinely a lot of work and I'm not saying the Rasmus isn't either But it's a two-year Funded program that runs. I know there's one based in Dublin. I think it's the know-how And it's humanitarian Kind of action type one But there's a lot of them across Europe and they're very interesting and they go on a lot of different areas And they're funded as well, which I think is huge help Yeah There's also there's a club and water for the years your goal access Monday if you remember make me think of it, okay Erasmus Mundus is that it Mundus and you and D us I'll certainly look into that. Thank you We'll come back a me in a little while But really interesting career and lovely to hear about it on you. What do you tell us about your own career trajectory? Thanks very much, and thanks for me. That's a really interesting story to try and follow So I probably won't do it justice but I'm and so I guys said my name is on yeah And I'm currently working the Department of Finance But turns my own journey started off studying history and politics and which and I was kind of one of those Lucky people who kind of always knew I wanted to do in college. That was easy. I knew what I was interested in and Then came out of my undergrad and was kind of like oh god jobs. I have no clue And so after the undergrad I took a year out move back to go around from and just kind of think about masters And spent a year working for a IV again, not with the intention of coming to the Department of Finance many years later And I spilled my interest in history and politics had kind of coalesced into a particular interest in Northern Ireland and history of Northern Ireland So chose to do a master's in conflict studies in LSE It's moved to London did the masters again really enjoyed it really really interesting But a year later found myself back in Ireland still none the wiser really about my career and really what I wanted to do And so I just started applying for jobs. I kind of had a vague idea about the public sector That was about as specific as it got so started applying to different kind of public sector organizations think tanks and Including a role as a graduate policy officer in the Irish Embassy in London Which I was successful in getting so I myself moving back to London all set this time to suppose live my best life as a working adult I'm not an impoverished student But this was 2020 and the world had other things in the plan for all this And so I think I ended up working for the embassy for a year But I worked in it for about six weeks and they sent us all home because of COVID but Despite that it was a fantastic experience and I was working on the press political team there And so the majority of the work was basically Parliamentary reporting Kind of reviewing different debates in the Commons the Lords and various committees and kind of preparing reports on them So for a politics nerd like me dream come true getting paid to watch politics But as well setting aside the the fun and the interesting things I did and from a career perspective the real benefit of that experience for me was the insight it gave me to the broader civil service and Because I'd applied what I've been applying for all those jobs kind of after the masters I had applied to an AO competition But really at the time felt I was applying in the dark didn't know what it would entailed It was something I was even interested in and And that year in the embassy it gave me that insight It made me realize and while the work of an embassy differs in plenty of ways to the work of a government department a Lot of the processes and the tasks are still the same And so I finally got a sense for what the civil service might entail and then I might actually enjoy it And I think that was kind of just a huge benefit for me because I really think Based on my experience the best thing you can do to prepare yourself for any kind of job application is to know as much You can about the role and so I think if there's one thing I really wish I'd known when I left college It was will be the value of reaching out to people Whatever sector you want you think I want to work in whatever role reach out and ask people who are working there already about it And I said it was something I didn't learn the value of it until coming to the end of my time in the embassy And they were getting ready to recruit the next cohort of policy officers And next thing I get all these messages on LinkedIn from people who were like, oh, I see you're currently a policy officer They're advertising for a new world. I'd like to apply. Can you tell me a bit about the job? And this took me totally by surprise. I thought oh my god. What a great idea to reach out to people over LinkedIn and Yeah, so And I found the same thing it happens as I've transitioned across finance again occasion You get people asking, you know, can you tell me a bit about the work of the department or what the work of an AO entails? So it's something I really really encourage and in respect of the kind of sector you want to work in reach out Ask people and because nine times out of ten people are more than willing to talk and it helps you I think a prepare but be also just get a sense of if you do want to work in this organization and or this role and And I said it's a lesson. I learned quite late on and But I'm not supposed to like got that embassy I got the benefit from the embassy of being able to to meet civil servants that way and talk to people who would work to know their departments and back in Ireland and Gave me again this sense that I think oh, this is something I I think I would like and Because I had applied in 2019 as I said, but didn't get past the first kind of stage of online assessments So I've had kind of given up on the civil service idea at the age of 24 But this kind of refueled my interest in it and I thought yeah, this is something for me So was all set to reapply and when the next competition came around as it turns out The original competition I applied for decided a year later, but they were going to recruit more people from there So they then at that point got to me in the list So was invited back to interview in late 2020 Was appointed to the financial services division in the Department of Finance in February 2021 So it seems I've been there a little over two years, which is hard to believe because it's flown and I think that's largely due to just the pace and the variety of the work which Has taken me by surprise, but it's definitely been the biggest positive without a doubt And so as an AO the work is kind of very much policy focused So means you can find yourself doing anything from you know, preparing a submission for a minister Drafting speeches press releases working on legislation and all things I've had the kind of I've been able to have the opportunity to do There's also a strong international element and plenty of opportunities for international experience whether that's Traveling to Brussels to attend EU negotiations on legislation Up to being sent as a representative from the department to different international organizations like the OECD the World Bank So plenty of international exposure as well, which is another added benefit So I suppose after two years I can hand on heart say there is no typical day in the civil service And and while that's been the best thing for me without a shadow of a doubt now that I'm in it I think it's on the flip side That is a real challenge when you're again on the outside looking in trying to decide if it's something for you So again, particularly with something like the civil service, I'd encourage you to reach out And I think there's about 40,000 of us working in different departments So no shortage of people to to reach out to And I suppose just the last thing like look kind of reflecting on my career path so far and the other kind of main takeaway I'd have and Will be to never undervalue any experience be that professional or academic that you've had up to this point And and not to not to cut yourself off from opportunities particularly at this stage in your career Because you think you don't have the qualifications or you don't have the background and like in my case I'm working to department of finance, but my history and politics degree equipped me quite well for a lot of the work You know things like Policy analysis and which is kind of the bread and butter of a lot of our work the critical thinking aspect of college very much Repairing me for that Similarly, I used to worry that a lot of my work experience. We wouldn't equip me at all for any of the roles I'd like in the future. So like things like working for a I be I also work briefly for too slow And for a while after my master's and I kind of thought oh god I've no relevant work experience for the sectors. I want to work in and Well, I didn't appreciate at the time I learned a lot of really good skills in those jobs from like just working under time pressure to meet deadlines and handling sensitive confidential data and Attending to detail all those things that are key across most workplaces and especially the civil service and And in terms of civil service, I won't go into the weeds the application process because it's late I don't want to put anyone to sleep But if any with any questions about it very happy to discuss it later But essentially the interviews are competency-based. So each grade in the civil service has a set of core competencies basically key skills and and for an AO you're looking at things like leadership potential Delivery results into personal communication skills things you can glean from loaded different work backgrounds and experiences You might hone them and apply them a bit differently in the civil service, but you can start developing them now. Um, so I'd say don't In my in my experience, don't say no to an opportunity Because you think it might be the perfect fit right now for what you eventually want to do because you're constantly learning in any work environment So say don't undervalue any experience you've had and don't limit your horizons Don't shut yourself off to it but an opportunity at this stage because you think you don't might want to have the qualifications Especially something like the civil service which really does have something for everyone So yeah, hope that was helpful. And if you any questions, I don't very happy to answer them Grameela on you there was there was two things occurring to me both of which you actually managed to address in the last minute But it's really good So design on a practice first of what you said about being your trained as a historian Yeah, and the fact that as a social scientist I'm always going on about that that the skills you acquire as a historian or a social scientist They can lend itself loads of jobs Absolutely hopefully that comes as as good news to people and it's true as well The the ability to be able to draft to coherent paragraph believe it or not You know, that's a that's a real value in a lot of workplaces and it doesn't necessarily come with with with with a lot of applicants Do you're a thing? just really briefly the The application process for AO for administrative officer, right? It's a staged process. Yeah, so basically usually they're general competitions Now there's sometimes our specialist dreams So just be aware if they might be looking people with the HR finance legal economic background Generally, they're general open competitions run by the public appointment service So you apply online first round tends to be series of online tests things like numerical reasoning and verbal reasoning and deductive logical thinking which is basically kind of a screening thing and When to get past that then it's usually an interview a combination of an interview Which is kind of based on those core competencies and and a presentation exercise as well for AO usually and that has changed a bit Since I did it. I know because I kind of did it during COVID. It was a bit so a bit strange But I think as far as I know now you you you're given material Maybe a proposal or something. You're given about a week usually to work on it And then you have to make a presentation and on some little policy issue. Yes, that's essentially very good So if anyone's thinking of such a job grab on you after Thank you on yet. So to Kevin. I wonder if your application process is in any way similar I don't know if you want to mention that but please floor is yours Yes, I mean I can I might mention that a little later for Jordan everybody So yeah, my name is Kevin. I work for currently work for the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs I guess by the first thing to say is There was nothing especially kind of obvious about my ending up in my current role If I compare it, let's say a lot of people might be in my workplace. I'm not a dual national I didn't grow up in multiple different countries when I was younger. I don't speak multiple languages In fact, I English a tiny bit of Irish and possible a best French I don't have any family members in diplomacy in foreign affairs and in sort any sort of international organization To be honest the first time I ever stepped into a Department of Foreign Affairs building was my first day working there And I suppose the only thing to say before I kind of go through a bit of my career path is I guess just because of I got certain positions or whatever Or I ended up in the current role I'm in now doesn't mean that I did everything right in fact It means I almost certainly did some things wrong It doesn't mean that I didn't make mistakes miss opportunities along the way, etc In fact those things what you say they're barry about kind of the different roles you work in the Not amount of times you've changed jobs. It got me thinking I'm currently in my fifth different role since graduating from my bachelors And I'm only 26 despite the hairline So don't laugh So so yeah, don't worry. You're not if you find your ideal job out straight out of college. That's I'd say I was miraculous nowadays I Mean when I was in school I think the first job I wanted to do was to become a teacher Then I wanted to do something to do at maths then it was something to do at medicine And then I eventually stumbled upon actually possibly the same degree you did history and politics history and political science Mostly because I don't really really got history teacher So I was like okay I wanted to do something to do history and I loved reading history books, etc Then I kind of went Maybe I need an aspect something to add on to that that's got a bit more relevance to a job market And the things I liked in history tended to be stuff to do at wars kind of more contemporary history, etc So I kind of thought well political science would be a good addition The degree was very good degree. It's quite broad. I found I didn't Try to specialize necessarily in one particular bit of history a particular bit of politics I also didn't have to do a thesis Because there was a weird loophole if you stay as a joint major so therefore I avoided doing a thesis Trinity College of them. Yeah and Then I was kind of finishing up my degree and I didn't really know I knew I wanted to do a masters But I didn't really know where or what in So I kind of thought about it been talked about my parents and decided to make more sense to try and get a bit more experience of the working world Both to know what masters I want to do and then to know what I want to do after that So I spent most of that summer 2018 applying for I think 40 plus internships. I can genuinely say I have no idea I lost count but then eventually I Got an internship with UNICEF Brussels office. So working with the EU institutions So I was working on a mixtures or grant management So the programs that the EU are funding in different country offices throughout the world helping to manage Those in Britain in the Brussels office and then also a certain amount of policy affairs So I did that for six months and then I moved into a consultancy role in the same office Basically doing what I did before there's never getting a stipend actually getting paid, which was nice So I was there in total for a year It kind of gave me a great insight into the working world Into how a big UN body works into how the EU works, which is proving useful in most of the things I've done since actually and Then also, I guess the sort of the world of humanitarian affairs at the world of development cooperation So then I did my masters in Leiden University in the Netherlands. I very much had in my head I don't know. I'm guessing most of you guys are probably Finishing your bachelor's kind of that sort of period 2021-22. Maybe if you're older, maybe a couple younger But I guess I had in my head that I didn't necessarily want to do the Do a bachelor's and a master's in the same country possibly in the same university with the same lecturers in the same like tutorial rooms that I had done my Bachelors in so I kind of looked a bit more further afield a friend of mine did a master's in Leiden the year before In international relations and he kind of advised me to look at it So I applied and I got a master's which was in international relations focusing on global conflict in the modern era I Had a really good time there I would really encourage people to look outside Ireland for master's degrees Especially when you consider that I think it was cheaper for me to do my masters in the Netherlands And live in the Netherlands than to do my masters in Ireland in Dublin and live at home So when you put it that way and also I didn't have to live at home with parents. So that's a plus Then as I finished my master's COVID hits in the last few months of it So I finished essentially online and then like a lot of people when they finished your master's and a lot of people during COVID I was Unemployed or as I put itself unemployed for about for about eight months So I did I did so I was constantly applying for jobs during that period The advice I would give is obviously there's things like don't be disheartened etc But very much especially if it's kind of quite a bit of a period Don't kind of get into a situation where you're just firing out the same application same application same application Look at loads of different options, but then kind of go. Okay. These are the one two Whatever things I'm going to apply for today keep a spreadsheet of the things you're applying for With the with our detail once you're thinking about including the dates The dates that you have to apply by also trying sometimes if you can download the details because sometimes The let's say the web page or whatever will disappear and it happened to me for one role that I applied for that Then I had to email when I was offered to interview me like so can you send me on all the information about it? Please I didn't get it as it happens, but hopefully not because of that then eventually I Got the traineeship with the European Commission. What are called the blue book traineeships? You may have heard of out them a little bit. There's about 700 traineeships twice a year with the European Commission in the different director of generals Mine ended up being quite close to what I was doing previously So it was in the director of general DG echo for humanitarian affairs. I was working on Syria how to organize the Syria Brussels conference, which is this big fundraising Conference for humanitarian aid for Syria I was in a sense doing quite a bit of grant management doing what I'd done in UNICEF But on the other side of it so assessing the things that came in from different organizations including UN organizations Not UNICEF though because I still need the people who work there Instead of being the person who is kind of reviewing them before they are being submitted So I was there for five months and applying away for various different roles kind of had in my head that I would probably Stay in Brussels certainly in the short term in the meantime before that when I was Self-unemployed I had actually applied for the Department of Foreign Affairs for the positions of third secretary Got through the first two rounds a bit like the measure officer applications There's a set of aptitude test deductive logical reasoning verbal reasoning etc etc got through that round got through a video interview round Which is quite basically you were given three questions that we can advance and then you had a time slot in which you had to Say the questions to a camera being recorded. It's one of the weirdest things I've ever had to do for any job application But I did that got through that stage then the third stage was a written exercise I managed to pass that stage but not within especially high marks So basically they were like you passed but we're not calling you for interview now and I kind of assumed right well That's like I think I have an order of merit Telling you what place you are and I was let's go this way in the hundreds So I was kind of like right. Well never mind So that was kind of in the back of mine wasn't even the back of my mind I've forgotten about it, but then I applied for a role with the Irish mission to denied to the United Nations in New York As a policy officer temporary policy officer to work on the UN General Assembly covering the period of August to December to 2021 I was fortunate enough to get the role and moved over to New York and I can honestly say it was One of the most exciting probably including my current job. Although I won't say that to my colleagues But it was exciting most stimulating most interesting job. I've had I would really recommend if when those opportunities come up again, which the applications tend to be around May June to work from August to December work on the UN General Assembly to take on six seven eight nine people a year You're assigned to different committees the committee. I was working on third committee, which focuses on human rights So it's working on things like situation of human rights in Syria the situation of human rights in Iran It's because we are on the UN Security Council at the time even though I wasn't really working on those files Which kind of felt a bit odd it kind of felt like you were allowed into a team park But you couldn't go on the rides you kind of do the really exciting things But I meant I and all the rest of us were given a lot of autonomy and responsibility in the things We were doing so we were actually sitting in negotiations with other EU countries again The knowledge I had from working with the EU came of use. I actually see a Leanne back there nodding she was working for the EU delegation at the time and I was sitting in these intra EU negotiations on various different bits of language from different resolutions and then also depending on the resolution also in Negotiations with the other hundred ninety three countries Not saying things off the top of my head I can assure you every evening you were getting email after email of latest drafts of resolutions and sending them back to The Department of Foreign Affairs headquarters in Dublin saying okay, this is what the changes are these are the particular things to note Tell me what art and position should be on this in like 12 hours time. I need to go to sleep I Was would have worked. It's probably the hardest ever worked in any role for about an eight to ten week period I was probably doing between 60 and 70 hours a week Basically eight to ten eleven hours in the office home dinner Watch a show then three four more hours when the new drafts of resolutions coming in sending them back sending them back And then having to do a bit on the Sunday as well when new drafts were coming in So it was very hard work, but it was incredibly enjoyable incredibly fulfilling Then another role I'd applied for which was to work as an intern in the Department of Foreign Affairs I applied for that in mid-2021 did an interview came mid-ranked on the kind of panel order of merit again kind of Had forgotten about it But I was I They eventually called me and said would you like to yeah come and work in this role Which is to work in the international security policy unit working on Afghanistan actually succeeding Keelan who's sitting over there And So I would move them to that role just I was finishing up in the mission over in New York Worked on that for six months The biggest thing I worked on was the renewal of the UN UN mission Afghanistan working on the renewal of its mandate So this was six months at six seven months after the Taliban's take over Sort of the mandate had to be substantially rewritten Norway were the country that were leading on it over at the UN Security Council and I just must they were trying to Effect language however they could making sure there was language in there about women peace and security this kind of thing So the draft resolution will come back to Dublin I would essentially have to send it out to like different units human rights unit conflict resolution unit Humanitarian unit will also review it from sort of the point of view of the Afghanistan country desk What oh, yeah, okay So then I got a call Asking me to interview retired secretary based the competition. I've done ages ago I interviewed for an April last year and I started in July So the current role I work on is on EU common security and defense policy, which has become very topical as of the last 13 months Working on two areas once a billion CSDP Which is essentially the EU is different missions in different countries doing various different tasks They're helping train Coast Guard Somalia. They're helping to investigate war crimes in Ukraine They're helping to monitor ceasefire lines in Georgia and Armenia So working on those man the mandates when they come for renewal in Brussels helping to give our diplomats instructions about What to do on those then the other aspect is the European peace facility Which is used to fund lethal and in Ireland's case a non-lethal aid for Ukraine I feel like I've kind of just gone through the career and kind of skipped any of the advice section But in that case I'll leave it there good Just so I want to let and I have time for those important questions and last but not least Luke Callan White Well, thanks Brian and thanks for the invitation to be back and as Barry mentioned I was here It feels not too long ago or I spent Three and a half years working at the Institute As I mentioned, I'm now working at Friends of Europe, which is a think tank in Brussels My work focuses on climate change and energy primarily When I was 17 filling out my CAO I had no idea that I'd be but doing this and just to kind of piggyback on Some of the things that the other members of the panel have said that it's really a kind of potluck at some time when you're 1718 and you're making a decision about what your undergraduate is going to be in It's not going to define the work that you can do a lot of the skills that you're learning that you're That you're deepening and that you're honing are going to be applicable regardless of the work that you do Very briefly just about my personal journey to to to where I am now I was always interested in the world always had this I Studied geography and political science at Trinity as well And I think my motivating question was you know, how is power exercise and how do we how do we organize states? And how do we institutionalized cooperation these kind of lofty ideas that were Gearing me towards these subjects and really enjoyed my time at Trinity Not going to leave me to to to a job immediately primarily because I wasn't thinking that way and And when I was in my final year of undergraduate, I Began working as a research assistant with a lecturer of mine. I am certain at the time I pondered off as though I had been asked to come join him in this research project But I asked him and I would really just echo what on you said is you know reach out to people nothing wagered nothing gained and I'm certainly happy to speak to anybody after the the session here about Ways you can go about asking people for for advice or tips or or even just to propose an idea of your own Worst thing that's going to happen is they're not going to get back to you When I finished my undergraduate I worked for just over a year and a bit in a restaurant in Dublin I think so many of the skills that I picked up there in the service industry work right now I apply them in the work that I do So I would say if you're if you're thinking about the next step or what to do certainly don't think that you're You know, you should be focusing only on the next position at this institution or at this department There's nothing whatsoever wrong with with Working while you're making a decision about the next step and as I said so many valuable lessons that I've learned and still apply from my time there When I kind of saved up enough, I went to the University of Toronto Where I did a masters in in in political science, which was my area of focus and the work that I had done with as a Research assistant was on the the politics of climate change in the United States So that was the really the origin of where my interest in in climate change emerged and So I spent a year working at doing masters at the University of Toronto I stayed on in Toronto to work at a at a think tank there I focused on Canadian foreign policy at the time that had been over 11 years since Canada had a UMPs keeping mission and there was a lot of pressure to to change that with the Trudeau government So we were working on that on that file When I moved back to Dublin, I did a little bit of work with some MEP candidates Around the time of the 2019 election on the question of carbon tax and climate change. That was the first real professional foot into to the question of climate energy and I applied for the IAA When I was in January of 2019 didn't get it And I would also say that all the applications that you send you're going to get so many rejections And it's really really hard to not take them personally. It took me a long time to To kind of divorce myself from the process and one of the key takeaways that I have from the time Working at a few different think tanks is is it is a real skill to be able to Detach yourself from the writing that you're doing which was always felt very personal to me and from the process itself Because ultimately you're far more than the work that you're doing But it was difficult because I really wanted this job of the IAA didn't get it So in June of that year after having done some work before the with the European elections I did start at the Institute and as I said at the beginning I was there for three and a half years I now work at Friends of Europe It's great to be able to work very closely with the International Energy Agency and with the European Commission Focusing on on some core elements of the European Green Deal And I'm really lucky and fortunate to be able to do something that I feel passionate about and that I'm really interested in one of the greatest pieces of advice that I got was from a Professor of mine at the University of Toronto Who said it is not enough to just be interested in something to pursue it Hobbies are interesting and I thought that was you know People were quite downcast when he had said this and what was this really applying to or what did he actually mean when he said this? But it gave a sense to a lot of us many in the class who are planning on doing a PhD immediately the realization that As you know, it's such a large undertaking and that it might seem like a great idea for the moment But when you're thinking about long-term decisions like that You need to have more than just interest in in mind and I thought that was a really helpful tip and Equally and I'll finish on this note and happy to answer any questions But I find that a lot of the time when we're working let's say on on new policy proposals or Ideas that we're we're trying to turn into written material of a blog or organizing an event or or something of that nature It is tried but it is really helpful. I find with colleagues of ours to try and and Think about the complete opposite side of the argument in your head Completely familiarize yourself with the point that you find to be antithetical to where you stand And if you can argue that in your mind successfully, it'll become much much easier to articulate it either written down or or in speech and I think that the most incredible thing of the last few years working in think tanks and that reason I would advocate for for any of you Here thinking about this is that it's given me the opportunity to to write more frequently And that's something I really enjoy and we all have different ways of expressing ourselves But I find and I think James Baldwin used to say that you know If you can if you can write it if you can describe it you can overcome it And that's as true for anything in your personal life as it is a really technical question about the net zero industry act That isn't quite clear in a commission document So I think that if you're interested in in in writing if you're interested in exchange of language of ideas of meeting International people with a variety of different perspectives I would say certainly embrace the idea of applying to a think tank. You're gonna have lots of luck You're also gonna have lots of rejections And it's okay if you have no idea where you're going to be in five years time. No, but it does Thanks, Millie Luke Keaton has a mic and we're gonna go to the audience in a sec But just you did geography anything from your geography training that was particularly useful in the career you ended up having thus far geography is is helpful It is it is There is there's an advantage certainly to having a background in geography It depends on what area of geography you focus in on if there are any geography students in the audience, but It is helpful when you think about the Earth systems was a was a course that you know You could focus on in final year and it's particularly relevant for sure job that focuses on climate change I guess you knew where Brussels was when you went to apply for your job Probably helped did help. Yeah, does anyone have any questions for a very interesting panel? I have questions a plenty, but it's really for you guys anybody While yous are thinking then can any of you comment on you got me thinking about this on you Anything from your your private lives not your private lives, but like from your from your non professional life like sport or Social or political experiences that you had that ended up standing to it when you're applying for a job whether you're a Sports person or I don't know involved in any kind of community activity of any kind Volunteering the whole way up because I love doing this and want to get different experiences. So I think I Wouldn't have done half jobs. I've done without us I remember one time my now husband Why are you doing all that voluntary work like you're not getting paid what sort of stuff that you volunteer ideas Work to end you like I say worked because I consider it like now. It's my work, but I You know English language teacher Creative art it was like like anything that was particularly interesting to me across a range series of things It could be helping out at a big sale like anything like but um But at the time I ended up around 2016 I was doing a lot of training so I was a participant in training programs And then I became a trainer myself because I find it so interesting so but it's all voluntary and I was like no, no, no, it's interesting. It'll lead to something and But that boundary work now. I'm now a consultant. I'm getting paid for it. So that's just one really obvious one You can it can you know, you can work in that area. I know particularly an NGO sector. I think it's important I know from having applied for a lot of jobs like what Luke said for every job I got there was 10 20 I didn't get But I realize now from applying for things and also from being through Many applications either to study or to or to work and you're making an assessment of someone's credibility as a candidate And their strengths and weaknesses, but you're also whether they'll admit it or not You're wondering could I like spend time with this person? I'm gonna be in close proximity with this person working with them every day Does it look like does this candidate look like someone who's sound who's interesting? And so like putting a bit of yourself into your cover letter, you know, if you have a real passion for Sport or for volunteering or for writing or whatever it is All of these are very talented and you're gonna be competing with hundreds of people are very talented So putting in little nuggets about whatever it is that makes you tick. I think can be really valuable Anyone else like I think that's a really interesting part about Amy's volunteering experience on your Kevin or Luke. Is there anything else you did outside of work that Studs you as a candidate for any of your jobs? I think in my case and it's not something I would have I Sledged a lot of them public speaking debating in that and and it's not something you something I would have always put on CVs and mention interviews because we got to be able to speak in public is It's so important, but I think it helps me less I think it helped me out the application form, but I think it helped me more when it came to interviews and because I think I think it's I think was I think interviews are Often ways because you know, they can be such an intimidating thing for people and it's hard I mean particularly the situation you describe Kevin having to do that recorded pre-recorded thing. That's just sounds like a night I thought a Skype interview was bad. That's horrendous And but you know it could be such an off-putting experience for so many people you're so nervous, you know You've got a limited time so much to say and I think a lot of time You know very good qualified candidates who just might perform on the day in one interview and that's it I think anything you can do to increase your confidence at presenting public speaking and for purely for interviews because they're Essentially most if not all jobs involved them and so I think if I saw something I would have I would have all the features of my CVs and mentioned in applications And I think it does look up But I think just read to prepare yourself for interviews themselves I think you can do to kind of increase your confidence that way is helpful Take deep breaths before you have to speak Just like when we're up here I don't think Kevin and this is your opportunity if you want to share any of your there is a question too from the back But if you have any anything you say you say you couldn't get to some of the advice that you don't you had in your notes Feel free to share it now Well, just on the point about I guess acting extracurricular things So I also would have done a certain amount of debating public speaking and yeah very much that skill set of being comfortable speaking in public But also Especially at all debating idea, which was the concern debates in school Okay, so you're familiar with them But the fact you're given a subject a week in advance not necessarily getting the side of the argument you want I'm pretty sure I had to argue that Romney should win the US presidential election in 2012, which even though I wasn't especially political at the time I do think I didn't quite agree with But therefore yes, you say the force you to take this off point of view to the one you have and examine the arguments and That kind of thing and then the other thing would be I guess sports I play gig football and hurling for about 20 years and it teaches you both I think Once it's sort of the value of responsibility personal responsibility towards a group towards a team like if you got a hurling match on a Sunday and you go to have McDonald's on a Saturday evening or you out for a couple of Drinks, you don't play as well the next day. You're letting that you're laying a wider group down You're letting the team down and then a second way it really helped was um when I moved to Brussels I was on the hurling team over there The local expat team I met a lot of people through that who would have worked at European institutions one or two who worked in the Irish Mission there Irish representation actually first gave me insight into all these sorts of jobs exist And one or two of those people had given having me advice on interviews subsequently. So that was quite useful I think like things that's a really it's a good example. I'm betraying my own Kind of my own interests here But someone with a background be it debating or be it sport be it scouts or whatever that someone who can Somebody kind of takes responsibility for both themselves and for their group I think that's such a such a strong set of values or qualities to be able to convey in an interview setting Luke, would you add it? Yes, and I also agree with what other other panelists have said if you can make your CD stand out Just even in a small way. It's going to help you Include something quirky or something's gonna read it and and and that's always Helpful two other things. I just briefly add it's it's never too late to learn a language I think that that's one of the most important extracurricular skills you can develop and Also bought this book along This is a book called designing social inquiry, and it's been one of the most formative books that I've read It looks quite dry. It is dry but I Think that if you can take an evening course or find a way online to do course and methods Be it quantitative or qualitative. It's really going to stand to you regardless of the work that you end up doing It's it's an it's in high demand and short supply and that's something when you're looking for your jobs Actually, it's it's often it's something to be on the on the lookout for that if employers say there's Opportunities for you to develop and train if you have a budget To pay for a course like a lot of good employers do I guess the you guys have access to Training opportunities in the public service right be in a language or something else Yeah, currently I'm doing classes the alliance front says as you say to improve a language never too late to start her in my case to pick it back up from eight years ago and it Thankfully the partner foreign affairs Supports it because it's I guess quite relevant and then you're literally doing an advanced degree No, it's I started a PhD and then went for the job because it's also that sometimes the opportunity comes before you're ready for it So the job came and I was like, oh, that's the perfect job I have to go for it. I was like, you're not finished your PhD. It's like I don't care And then I had a baby in between which is great But not yet you can Life as well happens, you know, that's the thing as well life happens And if you see something, you know jump for it and as he said like I was Constantly getting rejected for a self and constantly go on are being the worst rejection where you're so close You get just there and then you're just not you just miss it. You're constantly missing it and most of the Key points for example my my master's program the job. I know I was second or I was on a waiting list and Like you're saying it comes it can't not always but sometimes it comes and it comes when you least respect it. So Yeah, but no the extracurricular is always So it's helpful. It's always interesting as well This is only my second spring here. I forget how noisy the seagulls are this time of year So I hope everyone is able to hear you. I think they're two brilliant questions You can choose to answer between zero and two of them. I'll start with that with you The way I thought it was it's brought me to where I am now But I think there's a few key risks My master's actually saying I was working in a full-time very good permanent job with the bank And I was like, oh come on. I have the chance to like do it like it was yeah I was basically went back to being a student and had no money and it went to France and didn't speak French So that was for me a risk I remember calling my mom about two days ago and what the hell am I after doing? I'm sitting in this like No internet. I've got like cockroaches everywhere. It was like the worst student accommodation I was so sad didn't know where to buy food. It was a Sunday and ever since closed in France on Sunday For me it was like a low But it was grant like there was other points. I was in Senegal like the We had a flood and there was mice and like I woke up with conjugal anyway, all of the fun things happened and I remember thinking what am I doing but It was the right cause and if I hadn't made that risk and then again the risk again I finished the master's think it was more employable was and I couldn't get work So there's the you know that I got work teaching But then I was looking for something in where I wanted to be and it was tough So it took me a different way and then vice versa coming back to Ireland. I think was a risk for me So at the time I was set up in France My partner was over there We had a life over there and then moving back Having to do distance with him. So there's also risks. I think for career. You do on a personal level Also, you know, so there's there's different risks that way And then him having to move over and it working out for you know, so there's there's kind of risks can Sometimes professional risks can also have a massive impact in your personal life So it's something to look at but I do believe what you said I think I'm starting to see it in the last 12 two years, I would say 12 to 18 months. I'm now 33 but I found that The the risks that I took when I code in my 20s Are finally starting. I'm starting to see the little and it goes from you suddenly you don't have any You know, you suddenly think you're constantly struggling and reaching and thinking I'll get there and then overnight Sometimes it starts to get there and it's not there yet for us or for myself my partner or my family But even career-wise it starts to get there and you go oh, okay I'm starting to reap a little bit and that's and it will get there If you if you do the graft it'll work there and sometimes it won't look what what you think so, um, yeah I think risk is I think to do what if if you want to do something that really gives you As said the flame It is it is worth taking the risks No, isn't it we miss a hundred percent of the chances we don't take exactly the worst case It doesn't work out and you just go back to what you're doing before. Yeah, very well put I guess we're moving toward towards a conclusion on you If you want to reflect on either of those direst questions regarding risk-taking or indeed I think an equally pressing question how to Encourage people into a life in public service. Yeah, I think I'll go the latter one Um, I suppose the first thing I say is like there is a real sense of fulfillment in it And and I'm gonna jump back to the embassy here for a second Just because I never forget why I really enjoy that year and I was in my element to get into watch parliamentary debates and write About them and the bad things that were going on in UK politics at the time And with Brexit and everything well never the most fulfilling moment I had in the entire embassy with the day Manager said to me listen we're short staff. We need somebody to update this document And it was a Q&A Kind of a post-Brexit Q&A for Irish citizens living in the UK and all the what the do's and the don'ts and what would change What wouldn't change and the sense of fulfillment doing something like that We are actually really practical. I'm gonna help people and was fantastic And I said that's something I've while I'm obviously working in the Department of Finance Not the area as I saw the history in politics and they remain history very much remains my interest and am I kind of my passion? But I still got that sense of kind of that sense of I suppose fulfillment working in the Department of Finance And I really do every day and I suppose the added benefit then is I'm in the Department of Finance now But the opportunities within the civil service then to move whether that's internally within departments or between departments either on temporary scornment Permanently with something like the bill mobility which allows you to transfer between departments And that's something I was strong again But I spoke early on about the variety to work and even if you do find something in civil service You're not interested in the opportunities to move and our fantastic. They're really really good So I'd say kind of variety and the opportunities to move that the kind of sense of a public service And thirdly I'd say it's actually at the moment. It is quite it's becoming a much younger civil service And and the social side which I think is as important to be on steady job as the rest of it And I think that's it's a real positive for me And my first year was virtually all remote and I had to get my team were great And they really helped me to kind of acclimatize and get to know them all over Skype But my second year I started going into the office around this time last year And it was honestly it felt revolutionary to me It felt like a new job because I was suddenly surrounded by people my own age and opportunities like real simple things But after two years of COVID it felt so nice to have the opportunity to go for a coffee with someone and go for a drink And I think that's only going to improve in the service over the coming years because we're coming out of COVID And we're also again, it's such a it's become a much younger service And so things really go so close like as well, which I think would be also for me So the first time I've worked anywhere really with a kind of surrounded by so many young people And that's been as good as anything else. So yeah, we're in that kind of phase ourselves here at the Institute People coming back to the office more routinely and it is it's really nice Just having people around here and here and other people's voices Kevin No, look you can stay last one, okay So on the route I'll answer the risk one very quickly even though I guess I don't really look like much of a risk taker dressed like this So when I was 21 I did an internship in Unnamed major law firm here in Ireland and on the back of the internship. I was after a trainee contract There's probably a few of you here who study law And possibly looking at that route So you go for a trainee contract you do a self example the FE one was beforehand then while you're doing a trainee lawyer You go to a place called black hole twice and do further studying there And then you do a set of exams at the end and become a fully fledged solicitor. It's a very good career path It's a lot of long hours. It's very very well paid And I signed this pre-contract like I had down the back burner and eventually a year or two later Aronically as I was finishing my master's and I was looking into a few months of unemployment. I made a decision to essentially give it up to Yes, say thanks very much for the offer and for allowing me to extend it for a year as well But I don't that's not the career path. I'm looking at the moment And there was once or twice when about six months later. I was still applying for jobs where I did think But I'm really really glad I made that decision which in a year I was over in New York working at the United Nations working to create seems or crazy hours that I would have done as a trainee solicitor here in Ireland But doing something that I was passionate about those interesting stimulating that challenged me as opposed to Fundamentally something that I would have been I felt been quite bored doing so going back to I guess the idea of Was it having the flame for something? Yeah, excellent very similar story. I had I also signed for An online mate made a law firm in Dublin And I remember going home it was I was finishing in the my eyes of the study You see the time and it's going home thinking I had to call my parents to explain I was giving up a life in law to read books for a living because I went I went and did my graduate studies instead and Absolutely, you know looking back lots of happy lawyers as well, of course, but it wasn't for me either Luke what do you think risk or well just make you focus and risk rather than the other question Taken lots of risks, and they don't always work out for me, and I think that's okay And I think it's great though that you know you can recognize something it hasn't worked, but you can still deal with Whatever the consequences of the decisions are in terms of actual risk, it's more of something to highlight I think that Making a decision to go to do a master's outside of Europe is something I don't regret And I was really happy to do it, but in the European circle. It's very much a bubble and So it can be quite cliquey and oftentimes, you know You could be meeting colleagues or friends of the any of the institutions will have come from the same colleges and a very similar path So mainly the College of Europe in LSE, but that's That's that's just it is something to bear in mind if you have you know in your mind You'd like to do a blue book traineeship or or something of that sort It is something to bear in mind because if you're in Canada in North America more broadly or even in the UK now It will be harder to make that first step in I Think of the question of value that that I asked and had to get people into into public Sector work a lot of young people are a wager that most of you here Partly because you're here are motivated to some extent by wanting value in the work that you're going to do It can be really demoralizing when you're you have that way about you and you see that a job on LinkedIn requires You know might be perfect for you requires three four years work experience and immediately think How am I going to get your position where I can do this and also for to stay living in Dublin? It's so expensive and it's difficult and there are lots of really serious and somewhat existential challenges as Mentioned by panace go for it do it submit the application I mean if it's 15 years and you need to have three PhDs and you're at the station Okay, maybe that's not a great idea But if you think you're within a window of possibility definitely go for it. I think that What is really challenging for for all of us? I think in the room is that we're faced with so many Existential challenges and I'm conscious that most of you were probably in school for some part during the COVID pandemic and Must seem like there's a lot of doom a lot of kind of a really low ceiling and what can be done But that's not the case and working in in the area of climate change What part of what motivates me to work is the recognition that we have a huge amount of work to do and In the next few years We know that the the temperature increases for the next centuries will be determined by the actions taken this decade And that can be overwhelming and it's not to dismiss that But it's to recognize that there's an opportunity with that urgency as well I think by virtue of being here regardless of how it might seem that you you know These linkedin ads are targeting you but not reaching you where where you are go for it You you can contribute to society It might not work out in the path that you want and maybe some of those meanders are risks and maybe it will work out But I think being committed to an idea of working based on value is a good idea It's a noble idea and if you it's a passion of yours continue with it So they're always going to be risks, but there's still worth pushing through I've observed some of your most risky behavior in the workplace. I can confirm and I have one final question I'm going to put to the panelists, but I want to give you guys a chance in case anybody wants to say anything or ask anything Plastic yourself there First of all, thanks to everyone for the presentation. It's really fascinating stuff and really happening I guess as policy makers my question is have you ever come across situations where say I guess you're locked on hires up or even politicians in terms of Politicians, I think they know better with the policy making, you know, or is it always usually quite well received and have you deal with those situations? Question. Will you add anything else to that? Does anyone want to add? Thanks a million for your question. What's your name? Eli, thanks Eli. Does anybody want to add anything to Eli's question? So you can start with Luke and move back towards me so you can pass if you wish, but Luke, do you have anything to say to Eli? It does happen and Externally if you're having an issue with let's say a partner or another institution that happened not too long ago that we were our organization was meeting with a Major oil producer and we were letting them know that we are no longer partnering with them because we have a new Charter in our organization, which is what we don't work with oil producers any longer and they were by rates And it's not comfortable meeting to have One of the best ways to I think to respond to that is and it's a it's a good tool for work in general It's just listen Listen to what they're saying. Hear them out You know if they're you know going to be trying to lock horns of you Probably not worth your while engaging, but you can still engage in a calm demeanor and you know bring it back to the the fundamentals of the point You don't need to involve yourself in ad hominem or hyperbole Simpler is better, but hear them out, and I think that's a good general heuristic as well You should all probably listen more myself included absolutely. I invite you each to respond. You don't have to be Kevin Do you want to say it? Well in terms of they say locking horns with ministers My job isn't that exciting if there's a lot more answering emails than there is a sitting briefing a minister in person at the moment But that'll come right? theoretically I will but in terms of this idea of Yeah, having a disagreement with someone higher up over an issue that you feel very strongly about it has happened once or twice in not in my current wrong previous roles and I Mean what I did was I made the best argument for the point of view that I had based on What I knew about the facts of situation based on what I believed that the organization I was in should be doing and Unfortunately ultimately if your boss your boss's boss still says no There's on there's not really a lot you can do about that, but having from having talked true with my boss's boss and from I guess I'm going to talk with the background debating public speaking this kind of idea or you were talking about as well about this idea Seen the different points of view even was there maybe antitical to your own? I could understand the argument that this person was making Even if I didn't agree with it, so I guess I made my peace with it Plus they taught me so Yeah, I suppose similarly and as well the thing with the civil service particular is like obviously your role is to advise Ultimately civil service advice is government So I suppose that's something to be aware of when you're going into like the difference between being civil service or being the politicians and the Ultimate decision-makers and but I would say yeah, I think like disagreements happen and happen all the time And the best thing you can do is give your account And you know if you believe something if you've done the research if you don't the work if you think this is your opinion Give it and give it in a calm measured Measured way and and ultimately the decision isn't taken then there's nothing you can do about it But I think it's better. I would all say you know if you really believe have a strong view on something Don't hide it because someone is more senior than you and you know I would give your opinion stay as you've researched and you've done the work If an alternative decision is taken then you could you can still rest easy with that You know and I think you you would always regret not saying something But you know just because someone's higher up or whatever I would I would never do that Yeah, so say give your opinion and ultimately then you've done your best, you know It's never easy. It's never easy, but I do think actually you often get a bit of respect If you're a junior person if you assert yourself a bit. Yeah, definitely people at the end of the day Bring us home Amy. I Was thinking how many of you have had like a part-time job worked in the summer Delta awkward clients and yeah in shops or in restaurants or all of that is relevant experience to this because That's exactly the type of thing you could be in a wedding. Um, I've It's one of the people at the end of the day Dylan Ashland is there still so much max at the back of the room or they've been gone or they Yeah, that's a good great You're all welcome to stay and to chat and interact and to share whatever is left at the back of the of the room But just to thank you all for your attention, but above all else. Thank you very much to our panelists I think was excellent. I enjoyed it very much. I should just say as well Just thanks again to even McCullough and Sarah Burke for pulling me back together round of applause for the panelists