 Hello, everyone. I'm Brian Bellendorf. I'm Executive Director of Hyperledger. As many of you know, a blockchain initiative hosted at the Linux Foundation. And we've been at this as a project for almost five years. Our fifth birthday is coming up on December 17th. And we thought to commemorate that we would put together a series of panels looking at really how much progress have we made in going out there and talking about enterprise blockchain building tools that enterprises can use and really supporting the deployment of this really exciting domain. And we're really pleased to have put together this series of panels covering a range of different topics. In fact, the one next week is in a different time zone. It's focused on the Asia-Pacific audience. We felt it was important to, as we have for our history, to really make sure that that part of the world feels and is included as a first class participant. So look forward to that. In fact, on the Hyperledger website, we've published the agenda for those upcoming events. They all happen roughly this same time each of the next weeks. And then culminating on December 17th with a networking reception that we're putting together, which is the actual birthday, just to kind of celebrate and get to know each other better and that sort of thing. So all of these talks are being recorded and will be put up on YouTube for you to watch later. But we will be taking live questions at the end of this session. So be thinking about what you want to ask and potentially put forward. We also have a shirt available. You have to pay the shipping, but the shirt itself is free. So to help us celebrate all of that, again, it will be available at the five-year anniversary website, which the link to which we'll drop in chat here if we haven't already. And go ahead and pick that up. That'll be ready actually later today or this week. I think the link will be available to be able to order that. Now I'd like to hand the reins off to Hannah Zupko, who's the co-founder and CEO of Intellect EU. She will be moderating the panel today and facilitating the introductions of the other panelists. So with that, I will pass the baton and take it away, Hannah. Hannah, you're on mute. Thank you, Brian. I feel really honored to moderate today this all-star enterprise blockchain panel collecting and bringing together all the heavy weights and people who's been there from the very beginning. So let me start this introduction. Chris Ferris, IBM Fellow, CTO, Open Technology at IBM, and also Hyperledger board member. And also I know Chris as a person, the person leading Technical Steering Committee for from very, very early days of Hyperledger. And here with us also, Daniel Prey, who is a Chief Strategy Officer at Digital Assets, and also the original founder of Hyperledger Startup before it was contributed to Linux Foundation. I'll let Dan later speak about origins of the name. And David Treat, who is global blockchain and multi-party systems lead at Accenture and Hyperledger board member. So thank you, everyone, making time for the panel today. And to kick off, I really would love all of you to reflect on what was the state of blockchain at the time when Hyperledger was created in 2015? Where were you at that time? What inspired your respective organizations to join this open-source initiative to advance blockchain technology? Who would like to start? I can start. So I think I'm to blame for why we're all here. Actually, I guess I should say Jerry Cuomo is to blame. In my role as CTO for Open Tech, oftentimes people on IBM that are working on projects that they think they want to open source come to me and ask me for guidance about how they should do it. And we had been doing some research and sort of advanced development on enterprise blockchain for, I want to say, about six months, maybe since the summer of 2015. And Jerry felt very strongly that we should consider whether or not we should open source this effort. Since much of the blockchain that was out there, Bitcoin and Ethereum were already open source. And so I suggested that we in fact do that, but that we also look to bring the project under open governance and not have it be exclusively controlled by IBM. And so I actually put together a proposal and called my friend Jim Zemlin, the Executive Director of the Lynx Foundation and pitched him the idea of creating a project under the Lynx Foundation to develop enterprise blockchain technology. And so I pitched him and there was a moment of silence and then he just started laughing. And I was like, Jim, I don't get it. Why are you laughing at me? I thought it was a pretty good proposal. He says, no, I'm not laughing at you. He says, I'm laughing because you're not the first person to come and pitch me an idea for a blockchain based project at the Lynx Foundation. He says, you're about the eighth. And he says, but you're the first one that actually made one that made sense for a Lynx Foundation. And so that sort of sealed the deal and we collaboratively worked to pull together the initial set of companies and make the announcement on the 17th. I had a lot of help. I'll be honest. I mean, I had John Bolport, who is no longer with IBM. He's not with Consensus, but he did a lot of the dialing of dollars for calling up his people on his Rolodex to ask them if they wanted to participate. And Jim obviously has a very rich Rolodex. We far exceeded what I was hoping we would get initially. I think we had 17 companies on the initial announcement in the 17th. And then when we formally launched the organization in February, I think we had 22. And it went from there and it just blew up. So that's basically where it was. I mean, blockchain wasn't really exciting then. It really was, I think, the holiday season of 2015, 2016 that every CTO or a CIO in the world was going to holiday parties and the hearing about blockchain and ICOs and everything. And they came back at the beginning of the year. And blockchain, blockchain, blockchain, we have to do blockchain. And so I think it was very timely that the start of Hyperledger. Dan, what are your memories? So, hi everyone. Dan, I pray from Digital Asset. So I'm, as Hannah mentioned, I'm to blame for the name and you can blame Chris for everything else. So I'll get the credit just for that piece. My personal journey with blockchain started around 2013. I just left my previous cloud startup and then was getting very interested in Bitcoin. And obviously that was the hot thing Ethereum hadn't quite launched yet around then. And just started really exploring how the tech could be used outside of just purely for a cryptocurrency and had absolutely no idea where the market would go or what it would be called. And myself and my co-founder were just sort of throwing around a couple of names. And actually it was he who suggested Hyperledger. So I can't even take credit for that piece. And I thought at the time sounded a bit 80s and retro and a bit dated. But fortunately he convinced me that retro is going to be cool again. So we went with it and it stuck. And then, yeah, the technology really around 2015 when we started Hyperledger at the Linux Foundation, there was just Bitcoin. There was Ethereum. It was still all very much public chain focused. But the roots and the core of what is now known as the enterprise blockchain space were starting to emerge. As Chris mentioned, the sort of six-month development of what was then open blockchain before Fabric as well as some other initiatives. And really what drew us a digital asset who we had joined previously towards starting this is continuing the conversation with IBM, with the Linux Foundation around a bunch of companies where collectively really our business model wasn't to build and sell a blockchain itself. It was either to sell cloud services around it or systems integrations or build applications on top of it. And we were fortunate to have a large customer at the time of the Australian Security Exchange. And we were building the blockchain, the smart contract language, the smart contracts themselves, the application on top of that. And really everyone was sort of having to do by necessity and to end. We saw really the opportunity there for a group of companies which weren't directly trying to monetize that layer to actually just come together or collaborate and make sure that's something that met the needs of the use cases we'll talk about later today existed so that we could all focus and specialize building on top and around that. So I did not expect, you know, five years after we started the project, as Chris said, the initial interest was surprising and then the amount it grew after that was also incredible to see. And then the projects that are alive in production today in just five years for such a core infrastructural technology is incredible. Yeah, I recall meeting you then at the start of pitch competition and here we are five years later or even more, right, in five years from the original time when the Hyperledger was just a small startup to now being hosted at Linux Foundation. So David, now I'm turning to you to hear about Accenture journey and why have you guys decided that it made sense for you to join this initiative? Yeah, I think I'll end up crediting both DA and IBM and some of the early engagement, we had, we've got Accenture Labs, our applied R&D function, and they had been working on blockchain since around 2012-ish timeframe, Giuseppe Giordano and Luca and whole team in that lab. And what we do is the moment that we're seeing enough client engagement and success in the actual use cases and value cases, we mature it out of the lab's infrastructure and start to build a business around it. And just maybe, I don't know, six or eight months before Hyperledger was formed, we had come to that conclusion that it was time to start to build this business. And so as part of that, those early days, we did two obvious things, right? We reached out to our Massive Alliance partnership with IBM and our great history of going to market together from a product perspective. And then as our, we surveyed the startup community, Digital Asset actually had gone through the Fintech Innovation Lab program that we co-sponsored and I now co-run in New York. And I think it was Blithing Yuval pulled me aside at one point and said, hey, this Hyperledger thing is forming, you should pay attention. And moments later, connecting all the dots, it was an obvious join given where we were in that stage of evolution. And so we're thrilled to jump in right from the start and do what we could to help to shape it. And so at that point in time, I think both Chris and Dan said it well. It was definitely early days. We were on first clients, first clients, first implementations, first use cases. We had the confidence that we knew that this was going to be important and that we needed to build a business around it. But clearly, hindsight is 20-20. I think it's been a wild journey since then, predictable in some ways and very unpredictable in others. So I'm sure we'll talk a little bit about that. But yeah, no regrets moved from the start. We're eager just from a philosophical basis to seek out, given the implicit nature of what this technology is about, of being able to form multiparty systems with others and rethink and transform entire industries, not bringing a single thing to a single client, but thinking about how to engage the entire front to back business flow and ecosystem. How else are you going to do that? But to come together in a group of consortia of clients, peers, et cetera, to really think through how the technology can support that dynamic. So yeah, it's an obvious join and no regrets move and it's been a wild ride since. Great. So reflecting on the journey, I was curious to hear your thoughts on how did we and what we learned from just starting from one project, Hyperledger Fabric, and going now to 16 projects under the same umbrella, or if I use Hyperledger terms within the same greenhouse. So what did we learn? What's other opportunities and challenges in having so many different code bases? Chris, I'll hand the question to Chris. So it's actually, I mean, it's 16 plus, close to 40. I think there's like 38 Hyperledger Labs projects. And, you know, learning knows how many projects there are outside of Hyperledger that are basing them. That are based on Hyperledger technology. So it was an interesting ride. I think, you know, when I had originally sort of, you know, proposed it, I was thinking it would be one project with a lot of sort of satellite or, you know, attendant projects, kind of like an open stack kind of a thing, right, where there's one core and a lot of experimentation and so forth at the edges. And then Intel proposed sawtooth, like within a week or two of the Fabric proposal. And now we had two, and we actually then had, I think, a third from digital assets, right, where they were proposing their API. And so we started out sort of thinking about, well, how do we bring these things together? How do we sort of glue them together and make, you know, make something that's a little bit better than, you know, the sum of its parts. And that's how things started out. But then it just kept accreting. There was more projects came in over time. And, you know, because the community was pretty vibrant, it still is very, very vibrant. And it was sort of the place to be for enterprise blockchain technology. And so as a result, I think we have sort of two flavors of things going on. I think we have a lot of things that are built around some sort of center of gravity. And then we have multiple centers of gravity, right, where you have Fabric and now Basu and sawtooth and indie. And we have now a bunch of projects that are sort of pulling out and teasing out components. So projects like Ursa are, you know, focusing on, so here's a common set of functionality that we can share across a number of different projects. Projects like grid, transact, again, the same sort of idea where we could have something that was built that could potentially be used by many. You have projects like cello and caliper that were designed to be used by all as, you know, whether it's a deployment framework or a benchmarking framework. And now you have projects like Cactus that are looking at interoperability between blockchain. So again, I think we have these multiple centers of gravity, and then we have some of these things that are sort of in the interstices of, you know, between the projects or they're trying to glue the projects together. And so it is an interesting ride, you know, I don't know that there's, you know, a correct or an incorrect approach to how things are going, but you know, we are where we are, and it seems to be moving along pretty well. So, you know, even during this, you know, 2020, that we're all trying to forget, I think it's actually been going quite well. And so, you know, it's definitely an interesting ride. We're definitely coming up with a whole lot of innovation. And that's, I think, a positive. And so I hope we can keep it up and maybe, you know, get to fewer centers of gravity so that we're collaborating a little bit more across the different boundaries. That piece of it, Chris, I mean, that's always, you know, I don't know, it's been what, every six or nine months, and maybe we let's get Brian away in here, right? Every six or nine months, right, we have a decently heated but always collegial and productive conversation of that. Is it a Cambrian explosion of projects? Or do we start to rally and consolidate? And, you know, it's certainly an ongoing discussion topic, you know. But, you know, certainly with some facets of it, we've seen that specialization, right? The use case demanding a certain, you know, a specific set of capabilities, you know, and, you know, what India's done around the digital identity space and, you know, give way to, you know, areas over time and, you know, the integration between the two, you know, versus fabric versus soft to versus base to, I think it's, you know, it's, it's one of the more fun and productive, you know, conversations every six to nine months. And I know it's, you know, Brian has to play referee sometimes, but I don't know, Brian, do you, well, you know, if we if we put you on the spot and said, you know, which direction is going right now? What would you say? Well, I think it's worth reminding kind of the audiences. So I my own kind of journey into hyperledger. Actually, I'm a latecomer after all of these guys and after Hannah as well. I came in, I saw the announcement in December, but it wasn't until May or June, I forget the exact start date that I pulled the trigger and joined as a full-time employee of the Linux Foundation and full-time focused on hyperledger. And one of the things I realized and actually I'd been to some of the community meetings, the one that was at JP Morgan's offices in Brooklyn, I think, and another one in DTCC in Jersey City or something like that. One thing I realized was here are a lot of really smart people trying to learn what, what, what actually is happening of value out in the cryptocurrency world that could be brought into the, the blockchain space and what should maybe we distance ourselves from things like proof of work, right? But what also was pretty clear was that in any room of this one, like, like any room of smart people, you're going to have a lot of diversion opinions on the right way to, for, you know, for consensus mechanisms to work, the right way for, I think there's even a very fundamental difference between the fabric's notion of what is it, execute and then converge versus the Ethereum or other blockchain networks where it's like execute, distributed and then basically there's a very fundamental difference between the two. I'm sorry, Chris, you'll get it much better than I can. And that was actually reflected in the differences between Sawtooth and Fabric, which were both alive when I showed up on the scene. And even down to the implementation languages, I mean, I always hate it when debates and software become as banal as programming language preferences, right? But, but they do matter. It mattered that go is, that fabric was in go and that Sawtooth was in Python, because they had different objectives and different goals. And so it was, you know, finding a way to build a Frankensteinian combination of all these things wasn't going to work in the short term. And it really meant that we had to figure out for the long term was hyperledger going to be about kind of like the Linux kernel project, right? There's a lot to be said for an intense focus on one common skeleton, one common frame that everything else hangs off of. Or should we, should we be an umbrella or what we eventually started to call the greenhouse of a couple of different ideas and kind of let the market decide, so to speak, the market being both the consumers as well as the developers and others. And I didn't have a strong opinion one way or the other. I felt that there are reasons to do either. And, but I put it out to our community. I put it out to the public facing side as well as our membership. And I remember hearing pretty clearly, people wanted optionality. People wanted to take the pressure off of the fabric team to have to be all things to all people, right? And make sure that even if we had a little bit of confusion to deal with, we had a better shot at making sure we had the category leading platforms in. And I think we over exceeded on that goal. We had not just one with fabric, which do credit to everybody who's been involved with that, Chris yourself and everybody. That is now the majority deployed platform out there in the enterprise blockchain space, right? But we also have now the category leading distributed digital identity platform in the form of Indian Aries and the drive that that's made. And what we all hope will be the category leading Ethereum client out there, especially as it gets combined and integrated with, I'm not sure what the right word will be, because we're still waiting to find out, but with the Quorum code base. And that's a great place to be in and to have a community that can talk about the ways that we can even share ideas, share infrastructure, do build cross ledger projects, you know, those sorts of things and projects like the blockchain automation framework in hyper ledger labs, which is do a lot of attention. That's a really powerful thing. And so I think that's, that's really an accomplishment. It's hard to pull together a community of communities. And I think we've done a pretty admirable job on that. But there's always questions of the boundary, questions of the periphery to figure out how can we do better? And Brian, various live questions that came in that I think would fit in what you just shared specifically like question from Lucien, are there any blockchain projects involving sector regulators that need to check compliance with mandatory norms, quality, safety, or technical regulations applicable to imported products? Thank you. I don't know if any any of you are comfortable. I've got certainly, you know, the work that we're doing with Nippon Express, right on fabric is, you know, pharma, pharma, you know, responding to pharmaceutical serialization requirements to make sure that we've got, you know, we're not not allowing counterfeit drugs to enter into the, you know, the pharmaceutical supply chain, heavily regulated, heavily, you know, I don't know if that squarely fits the question you're asking, but that's the first thing I jumped to in terms of a regulated, heavily regulated business process flow that has all of those checks and balances as the core use case of it. And I'll start by answering one, within Hyperledger itself, none of the code bases themselves are tightly tied to a regulatory use case or to, you know, require regulatory approval or anything like that. It's just software. It all depends on how it goes out there and gets deployed in different scenarios. And but I have to say almost every project I hear about is about meeting some use case, some set of needs, and very heavily regulated environments, whether it's pharmaceutical supply chain, whether it's insurance regulatory conformance, which is another project that is implemented with all sorts of supply chain traceability needs, all sorts of financial instrument kinds of needs. The involvement of the regulators is pretty key to those projects to make them successful. And that's been really cool to see the regulators warming up to the underpinnings of the technology and getting comfortable with that and actually seeing it as, you know, this technology as reg tech in a way. I don't know if others on the panel have kind of seen that, but I know all of you have operated in these heavily regulated industries and built projects there in that, including yourself, Hannah at IntellectU. Well, thank you so much. And Lucy asked whether we could provide some links describing this project. I guess Hyperledger website would be a good place to start to look for links. And there's also newsletters that you can sign up to learn more about all the upcoming projects, but I'll let Hyperledger team also to follow up. And for everyone who is listening, I would encourage you to post questions in the Q&A and will try to answer as many as possible. So I'd really appreciate to move now towards looking and reflecting of where we are now. So Hyperledger 2020. This has been clearly unprecedented year and how did ecosystem has changed since COVID-19? Well, maybe this year actually created some fertile ground for some projects to emerge or new opportunities to be there. So what are your thoughts on the current state of Hyperledger as well amidst the pandemic? So it's interesting. I think when I look back and think about where we were in December, January of this past year, I think there was a lot of expectation that we were moving out of the troth of disillusionment with regards to blockchain and solutioning and moving into a domain where it was really more about people recognizing there's value, but then having to sort of, you know, to educate people on how it could be used effectively, right? But then we got hit with the pandemic, no more travel, no more client visits, everything's Zoom-based or, you know, WebEx or Meet Ups or whatever. It's worth knowing, Chris, in that moment, what for many of us that last trip was with the Global Forum. Well, I dug out of that. I was actually a little bit afraid of going, being as old as I am and I said, I missed you at the Corona Ranch, Chris. Corona Ranch was ahead. But yeah, it really, it almost was, I actually, the week before we were wrapping up our first meeting of the OpenSSF, what became OpenSSF, the Open Source Security Forum. And so, but I think, you know, we were thinking, okay, we're ready to go and now we've got some patterns that are very effective and we can start rolling these things out and everybody puts the brakes on, business comes to a screeching halt and, but, you know, again, new opportunities emerged, right? And so there was an awful lot of focus on, you know, coming up with a vaccine, coming up with, you know, therapeutics and so forth. And so there was a lot of focus on high performance computing and so forth. But then also we had to figure out, well, how are we going to get back to work, right? You know, what's going to be the process for understanding who's been vaccinated, who hasn't been vaccinated, who's, you know, tested positive or whatever. And so we have a whole new set of potential opportunity for blockchain based solutions. I think Mipasa was the first one out the door from Acera and IBM and the World Health Organization sort of getting together and coming up with an approach. But, you know, since then, there have been a number of different applications that are using blockchain as a means of securing credentials about whether or not you've been, you know, cleared of the virus and so forth. Or even just sharing information, you know, about whether or not you can be entered into a building and so forth for going back to work. So, you know, I think, you know, as we come out of this in the next, you know, six, nine months or whatever when people get vaccinated and so forth, I do think that, you know, a lot of the patterns that we had been ready to sort of unleash and to start really driving supply chain management, supplier management, trade finance, insurance, some regulatory things, you know, identity credential based, I'm sorry, identity based credentialing of, you know, diplomas and so forth. An awful lot of things are starting to come together as the year, as people sort of figure out how to get back to doing things. I just think that this year was unfortunate that we weren't actually in a very experimental phase where people are looking to do, you know, sort of non-core required things for their business because everybody is so challenged in many other respects, but I'm hoping that that spirit of innovation can return and we can start exploring even more use cases and taking those same solution domains, those sort of patterns and applying them in other contexts. I think that'll be the next year and a half or so coming. I agree with Chris and I think, you know, also the opportunity piece that he mentioned. I've been pretty pleasantly surprised, you know, sort of business wise after, as he said, the sort of few months where everyone slammed on the brakes and were distracted and we're all trying to figure out how to work from home, etc. The new sort of accelerated impetus on, on generally on digitization and on digitizing their business and modernizing their infrastructure. We've seen, you know, unprecedented levels of sort of trade volumes in the, in the markets and need for these systems to actually scale and deal with, you know, new ways of working. Many of, you know, our customers are people within the financial services industry, insurance, etc. are dealing with old mainframes and 20-year-old systems. So I do think a part of this has been a big opportunity and a refocus on how, you know, if we are going to modernize these systems which are working but brittle and aging, can blockchain be the thing we look to to make sure that we are future proof for, you know, the next Black Swan event or unprecedented time. So we've seen, yeah, elements of things slowing down and, you know, pleasingly elements of things speeding up as well. Yeah, I couldn't agree more, right? We're, you know, we're, and I think the next, you know, months and quarters are going to be even more intense against some of these dimensions that Chris and Dan referenced, right? We're facing the world's largest supply chain event ever, right? To get, you know, to get how many, well, you know, 7.8 billion people vaccines, right, on a global scale. And with the certainty and confidentiality that they, you know, that they are genuine, you know, that the, you know, real-time distribution of areas of oversupply to undersupply, the feedback loops, the, you know, the level of coordination between a, the drug manufacturers, the logistics providers, the health systems and the governments, that all four of those industries need to collaborate with each other to be able to, you know, to, you know, to manage that flow and event. You know, those that are doing it incredibly well and right are not viewing it as a tactical one-off. How many, you know, how many, can I, brute force it, you know, bubble gum band-aids and just get, get by, but are thinking, are thinking forward to, you know, the dynamics, right, that I think both Chris and Dan referenced that the changing nature of our global supply chains and that, and what our whole wave of technology has unlocked the creativity to rethink those as not being as static and linear and opaque and, you know, and paper-based, you know, as, you know, as they are, I think, I think we're, you know, I think we're seeing every bit of a, of a massive acceleration over the next year and some phenomenal work over the past couple of quarters, particularly driven by that. And then you pull on dimensions like benefits distribution, right, with, with so many people out of work and the, and, you know, you know, developed countries like the U.S. government saying, okay, we're going to rely on paper checks coming out from, you know, from the IRS to get into people's hands, right, the, the tokenization of money, the future of money, the notion of digital identity wallets, right, the, you know, the, the, the reality of, I'm, you know, today I hold my physical driver's license next to my millimeters away from my physical cash and the wallet in my pocket, right, in the digital world, I need to be, you know, I need to have that linkage between an effective self-managed digital identity on indian areas, you know, tightly coupled with my ability to hold tokenized assets, right, and those, that all has to hang together. And so, you know, I think we've got every bit of tailwind behind us at this point, you know, the, you know, pick, pick your, pick your phrasing of, you know, don't, don't ever let a good crisis go to waste. It's, you know, I don't mean to belittle it in any, I don't mean to diminish the, the, the, you know, the tremendous amount of suffering that's come along with this, but, you know, but the, you know, the good that they can arise from the motivations to be able to have more flexible supply chains to actually modernize our digital world, not just to electronefy it and really rethink the, the, you know, how companies and business flows and entire ecosystems can work together differently. I think it's been, I think ultimately as we look back, this will be a huge boon for this wave of innovation. Thank you, David. Another question, and I'd love to answer questions life as much as possible, so we can, we can, you know, address what people are interested in. So there's a question from D-Pibes that came in about job roles and hyper ledger opportunities and the skill sets. So I guess for all the developers out there and business people out there who are interested to get involved as hyper ledger, what, what are your thoughts on, on this topic, on the job roles and in hyper ledger? So, I mean, Ryan can speak to any potential hiring he may be doing, but in terms of the community, there's all manner of opportunity. You know, certainly the open source projects themselves are always looking for people to come and start, you know, contributing, whether it's fixing bugs or, you know, even just helping to spell check and grammar check the documentation. There's translation opportunities because many of the projects are just embarking on their journey to, to translate their documentation into other languages. I know hyper ledger fabric is a few of them, but again, the more the merrier, right, the more languages that we can develop, that we can share with developers, the broader the adoption can be. So there's, you know, there's that, there's sort of Speaker Bureau capabilities, right? So we have, you know, the marketing committee, I think manages a Speaker Bureau. So people that are able to get out there and do, you know, either, you know, webinars or, you know, I know there's no meetups or anything anymore, but, you know, I'm sure that'll come back shortly or conference presentations. I think the community is always looking for somebody to help promote hyper ledger at these, you know, the many events. And then there's a number of working groups and sigs that are run by hyper ledger that are focused either on a specific industry or a specific vertical. And so, you know, there's opportunity to come and engage in those and sort of share ideas and thinking about application of blockchain technologies and various industries. So tons and tons of opportunity, I think, to get involved. And of course, then there's always, you know, the various committees and marketing committees always looking for people to help. Right, Dan? Well, I would interpret this question broader in a sense that for sure, you know, not only hyper ledger as such would require hires, but also entire ecosystem of all our clients that are building was that all of us who are helping our clients to build, you know, weird intellect to you hiring all the time. And it's a matter of whether you're a Java developer or a Go developer and you want to come and become familiar with hyper ledger technologies and build the next transparent supply chain or you want to ensure that like there's going to be the next central bank digital currency or, you know, whatever other use case you want to apply, you can really, you know, transparency in a distribution of financial aid or help with distribution of vaccine and ensure that there is no counterfeit vaccine. So you can really take up, in my opinion, this skill set and understanding of hyper ledger technologies and applies them to really meaningful causes, you know, working with all the companies that are present here on this call, but also beyond working for many of the members, as well as just consortia that is using hyper ledger technologies. And I don't know if anyone else wants to do a shout out about hiring. I'll throw at that. It was only in January that LinkedIn published its list of skills and highest demand based on the resumes that they see and blockchain was at the top of that list. And I don't think much has changed due to the pandemic. I do think just to like go back to that earlier thread, it has certainly made, you know, slash budgets, especially around R&D and a lot of deployment of blockchain projects from scratch do involve a leap of faith and coordinating, you know, more than one big legacy company to agree to pool something in common, right, which is a really hard thing to bootstrap. But the networks that have been launched, like the food trust network, like trade lands, like the different trade finance networks that are out there have seen some pretty remarkable growth in numbers of participants in transactions, that sort of thing. And it's kind of like the dark matter of blockchain applications out there because this activity doesn't show up on a site like coin market cap or whatever. It does show up in things like the Forbes blockchain 50, which is useful to track. And you see a lot of blue chip companies talking about some pretty deep usage of it. Companies like Cargill and Walmart and that sort of thing. But it's really hard to measure. But one way to measure it is that demand in the job set and so in the skill set. So that was an interesting reference point. And we've seen, as some folks know, we have a training and certification program for administrators and developers on hyperledger fabric. And also a lot of training materials for indian areas and some of the other things. But the certification thing has been a pretty popular course. And we're in the process of updating that for fabric too. So it's a little behind the curve there. But that's been something that's surprising to us. But in retrospect, perhaps not really, is people do want to become expert in this domain. And I think it does require a unique set of skills in the same way that SQL databases when they came out required people to learn how to design their database tables. And that was as different from what came before as I think blockchain technology and designing these blockchain networks, the right way to use chain code, the right way to use other kinds of smart contracts and design the topology of the network. That's an emerging skill set that's in pretty high demand. And certainly encourage folks to take a look at that. Yeah, maybe if I just pile on with one more thought. I have found this particular wave of innovation and technology or the set as being one of the best examples where if you're a deep technologist, you're a developer engineer architect, needing to understand the strategic relevance of the use cases to where it applies is critically important. And conversely, if you're the business strategist, analyst type, if you don't really understand the technology, this is one of those spaces where you really have to have that well rounded view. And we've done, I think the Hyperledger community has done just an amazing job over the past five years of really zeroing in on valuable application of the technology amidst some of the wider community running around with block change the answer. What's the question? And viewing it as a panacea rather than one architecture or a collection of architectural patterns that address a core fundamental need and change of how the digital world is evolving and what that means. The meaning of getting companies rethinking their siloed based infrastructures and architectures and messaging and reconciliation based business models and what shared data infrastructures and what tokenization actually mean. If you're thinking about how to develop a career in this space, I couldn't encourage you more do it in a well rounded fashion. If you're a technologist and engineer at heart, really understand the strategic importance and context and vice versa. Yeah, I completely agree with that. And sort of going back to the sort of looking five years ago versus where we are today, five years ago, there was a massive chasm that was, some people could explain the technology, some people understood the business, but they would go and talk to each other in meetings and they were just speaking different languages about how these things work, what the business objectives are, how they're trying to achieve. So I'd say that's been closed a lot over the last five years and now it's maybe more of a gap than a chasm, but it's certainly still an area where there's always more people needed and being hired every day. Right. And I think it's a good segue to also talk about where the skills can be applied in the context of some sharing some specific examples of hyperledger projects that already either live or went into production or soon to go into production. Maybe you could share some examples of projects that are, you know, you believe are going to have mainstream adoption. David, I'll encourage you to start. Sure. And actually, I'm looking at the Q&A. Kyle Smith asked a question about Orgbook, British Columbia. You know, that's a great example. I'm going to tell, you know, John Jordan and team in Canada, you know, have done a great job of really rethinking the whole notion of, you know, of the whole, you know, governmental processes around setting up new businesses and that structure of incorporation, et cetera. I don't know it deeply enough to go into the details, but I know it's pretty, you know, it's a pretty great use case and some great work. And Jordan's obviously been, you know, incredibly active in our community and team. So, you know, I'd certainly answer that question with a, you know, that I think that's a great example. You know, I talked earlier about Nippon Express, maybe, you know, one of my favorites that we're working on is with the, you know, is the partnership with the World Economic Forum on the known traveler digital identity program. It's a, you know, it's a work with Canada and the Netherlands, the countries of Canada and Netherlands, Schiphol Airport, Toronto Montreal Airport, Kailam Airlines near Canada, and it's the whole, it's applying in the, and the whole notion of self-managed identity to be able to facilitate in its first instance, the border crossing process. And the reason I like it, you know, not with, not, not withstanding, you know, the fact that we're not traveling very much right now, but the, that notion of having that highest level agreement at a governmental level, that this kind of verifiable credential is sufficient to be able to cross a border as, as one of the more intense identity, you know, checking moments is, is great unto itself in the next, and when, you know, once it's out there, once it's everywhere in it, and we can just cruise through the immigration and border control process, that's great. But it's more the, it's more also, or it's also what can then get built on top of that, right? So in the, in the mix and the discussions are hotels and banks and, you know, and, and other, you know, the entirety of our experiences, the way this whole identity space is going to play out is going to be through islands of implementation. Where can, where do we see different use cases where there's a valuable, a valuable context and drive for someone to get one of these digital identity wallets start to populate it with credentials, use it value, valuably in one context, but because it's being built off of the same standards and the, and the whole topic of, you know, Chris referenced earlier, the importance of interoperability, right? If we have all of these islands developing against that same, same standard in an interoperable fashion, that's how we cross the chasm from what on the face of it would look like a gargantuan effort to say, let's redefine digital identity for the world, right? It's going to be done in these very useful, you know, useful, valuable business case contexts on islands of implementation that'll get bridged between, you know, bridged together time, you know, over and over again. So, you know, maybe I throw it throughout that one. I talked about Nippon Express with Fabric and Supply Chain. You know, we did some early work with Sawtooth with the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange. I think, you know, part of who we are, right? We're not a, we're not a, we're not a product or platform company. We're a services company. So we've, you know, we always value having that hands-on direct engineering to engineering team access and experience with all of the leading platforms. And so we've, we've tried, you know, we've, I think we've used all, used all of the projects, if not all of them, and, you know, and have benefited and valued that experience and having the, the different, different platforms for different contexts. I'll stop there. We, you know, there's a long list that's been a great ride applying these projects with our clients. Yeah, I think it's kind of funny how, you know, new technologies, they tend to be adopted by startups first and enterprises are kind of the laggards, like with, with cloud and other technologies, but then from high pleasure from day one, you know, David's talking about governments, Tay's Stock Exchange with Blockchain Technology partners on Sawtooth as well, and then CBDCs, right? Central Banks, just five years in from, from, you know, what was sort of POC, nuggets of technology back five years ago to being actually live with Project Bakong out in Cambodia. So it was a great webinar a couple of days ago with Makoto from Soromitsu. So, so in Cambodia, they are actually live today with a mobile app that anyone can use to transfer central bid, central bank digital currencies, always stumble on that one, peer to peer basis. So I think for, you know, what was a, you know, five years seems like a long, long time, but you know, we're not in startup land where you can build an MVP in six months and get it out there and iterate. We're talking about core mission critical systems here. And to go from next to zero to live in production at a central bank is incredible. So I mean, you know, IBM's got a number of projects. I think the most notable ones would be like the Food Trust network that we partnered with Walmart and Kroger and a number of Carrefour and others that's in production. And it's, you know, we keep adding new foodstuffs to the, to the network. I think the most recent one was, oh my God, just olive oil. Wasn't it olive oil? Thank you very much. I just, I just tweeted this morning was, you know, tracing the provenance of olive oil, which is actually one of the most contentious articles that you can find in the supermarket because a lot of it isn't really virgin. Some of it's not even olive oil. So scary stuff. But so the Food Trust, I think was, you know, probably the one of the first ones. And then also the, the trade lens initiative that IBM partnered with Merisk that is, you know, really sort of growing up. These are in production and they keep growing and adding new members, new ports of call and so forth to the network. And I think that, you know, again, it's not so much a technology problem. You know, the technology is production grade. I mean, you know, regardless of which projects you're looking at, whether it's Basu or Fabric or, or India or what have you, this is production grade technology. But it's the building of these networks, the developing the governance model for how are we going to agree on what's the chain code or what's the smart contract that we're going to, to use, you know, what, what means of identity are we going to choose to be able to confirm that, you know, we are who we say we are and so forth. That piece of the puzzle is the hardest part, getting in many cases, you know, fierce competitors to collaborate with one another in developing one of these networks is, is sometimes the hardest, the hardest part. And so, so that work on goes, but I mean, we have, I think we, as I mentioned, we've come up with a number of different sort of patterns that really work effectively. So you think about what trade lens is, it's about moving shipping documents from one port of call to the other and ensuring that nothing has changed. So we can check the, that everything that's in the shipping containers is what was, was shipped from the other port. That's really a document management problem. Right. And so it, so what other applications that's really about document management, can you apply with essentially the same pattern of, you know, putting it and recording the, the document on the blockchain and being able to verify it on in a different context. So, you know, again, I think, I think what we're seeing is, you know, increasingly taking those patterns and applying them in different contexts. So supply chain management and, you know, know your supplier kind of a thing is, is now another one of those patterns, one of those solutions, I think it's IBM calls it trusted supplier, right. And so it's really about understanding who is in your supply chain and are you dealing with, you know, a trusted supplier provider of your goods. So, you know, I think, again, it's not so much, you know, are, do we see these things in production? Yes, we do. I think, you know, the real challenge going forward, as David said, is how do you sort of pull these things together? And that's that oftentimes is the hardest part is not a technology problem. And in fact, you know, we I like to say, you know, sort of blockchain is typically about 20% of the solution. David knows this very well, most of it is the integration of the blockchain into all the stuff that you already have, or there are the new stuff that you're building. And that's the challenge, the most challenging aspect of any of these projects. And that is the there's a funny moment, right, in any one of these big transformation programs, right, you have a big, you have a big, big room full of, you know, of stakeholders and some engineer from some architect from the back of the room will be, you know, raise their hand as you're putting up the whole reference architectures. I thought this was a blockchain project, like, yeah, it's this corner down here of the architecture diagram, still going to build everything else, like it's going to, you know, to do something real. But yeah, no, and maybe just just one last thought, and I the if I pull on, right, what Dan and Chris and I all shared, I think one of the I think one of the most special and valuable things has been how these projects have been, you know, have been have really been, I think, facilitated or even originated or have emerged from the from the very collaborative open community of, of, you know, that within the hyper ledger family, right, that the, you know, at our events at the dialogue, you know, the dialogues we have in the hallways and the like, you know, a number of projects that we've been involved in have germinated that way, and have involved multiple hyper ledger family members. And that I think that's, you know, as a testament to both the culture that we've we've been able to build but also, you know, the inherent, the inherent characteristics of this particular way of innovation that require that. And so looking forward to the family continuing to grow and thrive. Well, and one project that's already in productions that I could mention from our experience was a team at Intellect to use it, we're built in partnership with financial institution and local Belgian governments like city governments is on the loyalty side and incentivizing behavior like whether it's recycling or taking your bike instead of a car to take kids to school or for them to go to school. So I definitely feel that there's significantly more project out there. And I completely agree with you David that, you know, also like governance is a big question like and willingness to willingness to implement and change all those business models and very often, you know, blockchain is only like five percent and not even, you know, a challenge you can just implement it but building everything else around it. It's really important five percent. Right, right, right. The thing that unlocks the rest of it. Right, but then it's like that total snowball effect, right, everything else that's changed for those five percent to come into play. So we have a few minutes left and I would really love to hear your thoughts and predictions for the future, like what as the next five years of hyperledge are going to look like? Who would like to start? I'm happy to kick it off. We, and maybe maybe in a wider context, right, I think the if you look at our membership roster and the other related important communities that have joined and been part of this, you know, and even across the Linux family, right, the, you know, the other Linux projects that, you know, that relate, you know, that relate to this, you know, I'm thinking Phinos, I'm thinking, you know, you know, etc. I think the whole notion in the next period is going to be, you know, the killer use cases really scaling in production and, you know, and we've talked about a number of them here, whether it's, you know, whether it's, you know, supply chain, digital identity, financial infrastructure, central bank, digital currency, you know, etc. The dialogues there have shifted so that they're about the use case and the value case and oh, by the way, they're underpinned by blockchain, right, is the, you know, and when we do our jobs right in the public domain, you don't really know, right, or the end users don't really know that there's this, you know, phenomenal capability behind it. And I think we're going to have to wrestle with that dynamic, right, as we move forward to, you know, because it's not, we're not leading with the technology, we're leading with the value of use cases now out in the market. So our ability, I think, to continue to support that with that, with the foundation layer of, you know, of capability is obviously crucial. And our ability to tie in directly to that value and outcome basis and continue to expand the ability to convene, right, the public-private partnerships, the convening capability to rally around that, to give the feedback loop to the developer and architect community around what's really useful and helpful and, you know, propels those use cases forward. That's how we'll win, you know, or sort of wins probably the wrong term. That's, you know, that's how we'll thrive and grow and, you know, and see this technology really take root. The other interesting dynamic to that is the, is the, give a lot of thought to this. I mean, you know, I spent a lot of time in the startup community and their entry point into the infrastructure that they build assumes these things, right? Is that, you know, they're born in the cloud, they're born, you know, born in the construct of tokenization and, you know, rethinking identity and the like. And it's the, you know, it's the, you know, it's the modernization of existing corporate enterprise government structures that's, you know, that, that is, you know, it's a huge, you know, it's the huge coal face that we have to continue to hack away at. You know, our engagement in both of those communities creates some interesting dynamics where, you know, the new entrance may, you know, we'll race ahead and we'll grow fast as, as happens in the, in this digital era. And the degree to which, you know, the existing, you know, existing players can modernize quickly. That dynamic, I think is also going to be important for us as we think, think, think, think ahead around building really useful engaging capabilities. All right. We're pretty much out of time, but sorry, maybe, maybe we could, yeah, maybe everybody else and I see there's also a question about Damol came in. So then maybe you have some finishing words and Brian, Chris, would love to hear from you as well. Nothing better to finish on than a suspiciously anonymous question to give me a plug. So thank you to whoever that was. Just to tie it into that last question, super quickly, I think, you know, going forward, we're going to continue to see the componentization that Chris and Brian mentioned earlier, both within Hyperledger with pulling out projects to become more modular and be able to integrate with each of those. And from the customer point of view, being able to pick, you know, the sort of best of breed for each different layer of the stack. And back when we started, we didn't even know where those boundaries were for each of those modules, let alone how to define those, those interfaces. But right now we're starting to see, you know, that modularization within Hyperledger and as well as external integrations that David mentioned, potentially with projects in Finos, with Damol, which is an open source smart contract language created by Digital Asset. We've integrated that with Hyperledger Fabric, Hyperledger Sawtooth and Hyperledger Bezu. I know there's integrations with other projects external to Hyperledger as well. So the more componentization and modularization we get, I think, the more we'll start to look less like a monolithic competition between Hyperledger Fabric or Ethereum or the quarter and more of a, you know, like most traditional software stacks in production today, companies focusing on different elements of that stack and giving it an overall better experience to customers and accelerating the production journey. Yeah, I don't think we're at the end of the line here by any stretch of the imagination. I mean, I think, you know, there are a number of use cases, for instance, that we wouldn't dream of trying to go to market with today simply because the volume of transactions that it would need to support is just, we're just not there, right? You know, thinking of, I met with the team from Visa and, you know, it used to be that the same was, oh, they do 25,000 transactions a second. That was actually their benchmark for their testing. And the gentleman in the back of the room when I was doing a briefing there was said, no, that's my job and it's actually 75,000 transactions a second sustained over a period of at least two hours. That's their benchmark for what they have to be able to deliver. We're not even close to that, right? We're in the couple of thousand, three thousand, you know, maybe up to five, but we're certainly not in that particular realm. And that's just the reason that we're going to think about all these things interconnected. Oh, my God, you know, it just gets a little bit nutty. And so I think much like the sort of the data in AI space, I think there will be, you know, continued innovation, continue looking at different approaches, whether it's to consensus, you know, whether it's to, you know, smart contracts with, you know, modules like Dammel and so forth, simplifying the approach of how do you write these smart contracts? Dammel goes a long ways towards that. But again, I think with as with data in AI, we're just going to continue to see more and more innovation to make it easier for people to integrate blockchain into their solutions and for us to interconnect these things. But that's going to take a continued, you know, focus on improving performance and throughput and scale and so forth. And so, you know, we have a ton of work ahead of us. And then I think there's the all the different, you know, Brian, I sort of plug some of the things that you're doing is sort of building some of these sort of focused network based communities on the side or sort of around hyper leisure. They're not formally part of it, but I would hope that we would see some interconnected tissue building between these various organizations so that we're getting, you know, feedback and input from the communities that are trying to use the technology to figure out where do we need to go with it? Brian, I'll leave the last word to you. For sure. All of what's been said so far. You know, my personal goal was to see hyperledger setup not as a five or 10 year type of open source project, but a 40 or 50 year one. The Linux kernel is next year will turn 30 years old TCP IP as a standard is gosh, it's probably 50 years old at this point. I forget exactly when the first kind of packet started flowing, but I believe it was the early 70s, if not late 60s. So blockchain technology for industries as a whole to be able to trust it and be able to move core processes to it. They've got to know that it's going to be there tomorrow in a year in 10 years. You know, we don't have to talk about the legacy mainframe still running in some places to know that technology cycles in what we're proposing are incredibly long and we have to be here for the long term. And so that's what we've been, I hope establishing a culture and an infrastructure around. And, you know, the individual pieces will evolve over time. But we've got to be here for the long term. And that was solid foundation for that. And then I do sincerely hope that we can start to permeate other Linux foundation projects, spin up new ones that connect very closely that serve as feeders for new code in the hyperledger, but also help tackle some of these adjacent challenges in domain specific ways that that blockchain is really well suited to try to tackle. So I'm incredibly optimistic. I don't get a lot of sleep these days only because there's so much that we have to do on all these fronts. And it's been an incredibly rewarding honor to be a part of the hyperledger community. So thank all of you on the rest of the panel for giving me a chance to be your executive director. Thank you, Hannah for leading this panel in our conversation and telling us more about what IntellectU has done in this space, which is really good to hear. And join us next week for, it'll be at more of an Asia Pacific friendly time. So join us if you can. But we'll continue the conversation there and look for the next few over the next five weeks and see you all at the next one. Thank you very much. We'll wrap up here. Thanks. Thanks, everyone. Thanks for joining. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks.