 You can now follow me on all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be and don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications button so you're notified for when my next podcast goes live. Always been in debt. I don't think there's a time I've never been in debt since I was 17, 18. Never been, not been in debt. You know, like always having to do something to pay, you know, write a book, pay that. Do this to do that. You know, always. Sign for them that you get a signing on fee. Pay that. You know, it's always that hand to that hand out. Never. Cup winners' cup game against. PSG. Second leg. Drew the first leg in. Parked in France, won all. And I went out the Sunday. Took a load of gear and I couldn't take that chance. I told him I had a sore throat, you know, and I wasn't well. Because I thought if I play in this game and I foul a drugs test being a European game, that'll be it. And I missed that game. And when I used to want to kill myself, I used to think, how can I tell anybody this? You know, I'm playing for one of the best clubs in England. You know, Rolls Royce of a football club Arsenal. I'm playing for England. I got the world at my feet. I'm earning good money. How can I go and tell someone what I'm doing and I want to kill myself? They'll think. And in them days, you know, there was nothing like it is now with mental health. Like, I thought I'd be in a straight jacket. You can't be right. How could you even think like that when you got everything at your feet? I'd gone home and put a rope around the, around the curtain rail thing. Like, and like, I wanted to do, like hang myself, you know, it was up. It was up. Ben, we're on. And today's guest will get footballer Paul Merson. Paul, how are you brother? Yeah, I'm very good, thank you. Yeah, good. Good to see you man. Cheers. Watch your documentary a couple of weeks ago. It's all about your stuff, all about your gambling and drink, drugs, kind of everybody. It's, somebody knows, is either being involved in or knows a family member of friend. It's an addict somewhere along the line. But first and foremost, brother, I just want to say thanks for coming on the show. Oh, pleasure. It's been a long time, isn't it? Yeah. You can do it then. You can do it now. So yeah, please I can do it. Good man. Obviously we know about addictions and stuff which we'll touch on later on in the interview. Paul's going to like to go back to the start of my guests where you grew up. How it all began. I grew up in a place called Holsden, which, but the North, Northwest London. Yeah, dad was a Coleman. Mum used to like sort of work from home sort of thing, making ribbons, things like that. Yeah, I can remember we used to live in like this house, but a old lady used to live underneath and our front door was the bottom of the stairs. That was our front door. So then that was our front door. And then we went up the stairs to our house. Yeah, a little flat, wet the bed till I was at least 10. It used to lay on plastic sheets. So every time you turned it was like the noise was bad. Yeah, very insecure, very, yeah, very quiet, shy kid. When I grew up, you know football was my release. I love playing football. I love that's all I knew. I was dyslexic when I grew up as a kid. I still am today. Speech impediment. Yeah, I get a few things against me, you know, like growing up, especially when you're shy and insecure to have them kind of stuff. So I'd always have extra lessons at school for my dyslexia. So I never really got in the playground with the kids to make friends. So that was a bit awkward. But yeah, I just love going down. I was allowed to go down the park when I was a youngster. You know, in them days, your mum would let you go down the park and then you can come home before it was dark. You know, you're not allowed to do that anymore. Did you feel about alone on school? Yeah, I didn't like school. Big regret. If I'm being honest, real big regret. I'd like to have been more clever if I'm being honest. But yeah, I feel I just didn't like it. I didn't like school. I was very good at maths. Very good at maths. You know, I got to a stage where, you know, I could work out a 20 team accumulator to the penny. You know what I mean? And that's where I probably got my maths. Who is there? Yeah, I got one sister and two younger brothers. Yeah. So yeah, there's four of us. Yeah, it was, yeah, my dad was a Coleman. So it was it was odd, like, but my dad was always light. Go up early. I always liked to go work with him. You know, I'd be devastated if he didn't wake me up on a Saturday morning, you know, like, but yeah, obviously it's five o'clock in the morning. Sometimes he never, but I always used to remember that devastation of never woke me up. Never woke me up. Was there any things like gambling and the family at that team on calls, father and dads? No, my dad liked to bet. My dad liked to bet. My dad, I remember when I was a kid, I remember my dad back to Scotland to be England 2-0. I still remember it like it was yesterday. And I love watching football. I didn't know about betting, but my dad's had 2-0 and like, my mum and dad didn't have a lot of money. Do you know what I mean? And it was 2-0 to Scotland and my dad went for a walk around the block because it was like big. And I remember me chasing him down the road, shouting out, England have just scored, England have just scored, it's 2-1, but that's not good. That's not good. So yeah, I used to play games like card games. Like we used to play Kaluki as a family, you know, and Chase the Ace and like Four Kings and things like that, just for pennies and two P's. But yeah, I love the game of Kaluki. I love Rummy and Kaluki, they were like, and we always used to play them always, and mates would come round and I'd play. But I never really, you know, I never at the time thought, oh my God, this is a problem. Do you know what I mean? It was just fun. But as time went on, you know, I just couldn't stop. What was the first team you played with? Sunday team. I played for Brent for my district. Then I think it was, I don't know if it was Forrest United or Belmont United, like Sunday morning team, which was, I was fortunate. I think good Sunday morning teams, because I was a good player. So I loved playing football. I just loved it. I just loved, but I used to have to come off with palpitations, used to get nervous, used to get anxiety attacks, which I didn't, at the time, I didn't know it was anxiety, you know, now, because you never heard that word in them days. It was just palpitations. My mum took me to the doctors after a couple of times of coming off because I couldn't breathe. And the doctor just went, stop playing football. The simp was that, stop playing. What age? 10, 11. Well, there's that anxiety in the bed where it all comes from, was that animosity in the house or anything with your mum and dad? No, not really. No, it was quite a happy family. Dad used to go and play cards, like, and sometimes he wouldn't come home and play cards, but that was about it. Not really. No one was, no fighting in our house or anything like that. It wasn't like it was scary. Do you know what I mean? It's just something that happened. Yeah. So when did you, when you get told you weren't going to play football again, what was, young Ked, what were you thinking? I didn't think anything of it really. Yeah, I didn't, you know, I didn't, I didn't think, oh my God, that's it. I just, just like, like everything really, I just brush it under the carpet, like always just at any age. Do you know what I mean? I'd never taught my mind or anything like that. I just got on with it. And then I just learned to, you know, just to learn that I could, I'm not going to die. Do you know what I mean? It's a breathing thing. I still get it now. I get on a plane. I can't catch my breath, you know, with the anxiety, but I know just to ease my breathing down and it'll be all right. When you know it's a lot different. When you don't know, it's scary. Yeah. So when did you start moving through the ranks at football? I went to Watford at 12 and I loved it. Loved it at Watford. I had a bad injury at 11, cut my knee open, playing on the estate where we just moved to. We moved to Norfolk and I was playing on the estate. We was one of the owning houses to go up. One of the first people to live there and I slid out and there's a piece of iron in the ground and cut my knee open completely. I mean, the skin dropped down to my ankle virtually. You could see the bone and I had it stitched up and then I went away to, like we used to go to Hale in Ireland a lot always. My dad wouldn't fly it. Dad's never been on a plane. And I was a wicket keeper because I couldn't move and I went to go for a ball and I slipped and cut my knee open again. It fell open. Got rushed to Chichester Hospital and they put cat-gut in it, you know, like tennis racket. And that sewed it together and that's why people go, oh, how can you play with the outside of your right foot? I mean, it's because I can bend my leg virtually all the way around because it's got special stuff in it. So, yeah. And then I went to Watford. I loved it. And then Arsenal come in for me at 14. My dad desperately wanted me to sign for Arsenal. He's a massive Arsenal fan. I grew up a massive Chelsea fan when I was a kid and I didn't want to sign for Arsenal. You know, thank God I did now. But at the time, I knew I had a chance at Watford or half a chance. I thought I'd absolutely no chance at Arsenal. See with your dad, not scared to fly, do you see a lot of yourself and your dad then with their buttons, eh? Yeah, I would say so. I would say with a flying, yeah. I mean, I say I'm scared of flying. I am scared. I don't like flying. I don't know how anybody does like flying. I think it's a load of shit really. I think, you know, because if that plane was going down, they'd all be jumping on each other's heads to get to the door. Do you know what I mean? So, for me, yeah, it never flew. We never went away. We only went to Haley and Ireland. Went to a place called Walners every year. Yeah, it's still not flown. I remember many years ago, I took everybody when I was earning good money when I was playing football. I took the whole family to Florida. And my dad was the only one who didn't come. I said to my dad, I said, if the plane goes down, you're on your own. Do you know what I mean? That's it. And he, no. Have you tried? I'll stay and he's running and dying with everybody. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So selfish, you know. But no, but that's, I understand that now. I understand, you know, when people are like that, that, you know, you have to accept that. You have to accept that. And, you know, he's never, I mean, when he was in the army, by the time he got a boat home, he had to go back again. Yeah. That's a funny one. So you made your name in Arsenal. Was it a five-a-side tournament? Yeah, yeah. Soccer six tournament. I was just going along. I wanted to stop playing football. Why? Because I was traveling 21 stops every day and I wasn't playing in the youth team. I was sub every week. And I was like, I was getting under a quid a week a month. My mates were getting over under a quid a week working on a building site. Do you know what I mean? And I was like, I don't want to do this, dad. It's getting on my nerves. It's getting up at six o'clock in the morning, Saturday comes, not playing. And he said, keep on sticking out. And we went to a tournament. We wasn't even meant to be in it. And they said, they want teams pulled out will Arsenal send a team? And that was it. You know, nothing was on telly in them days. You had the big match and match of the day. And they showed this on ITV, like about 10.30 at night. And I done really well. And then Charlie Nicholas Dunn interviewed saying, this kid's going to be the next DM Rush. Or it reminds me of him Russian. And then I took off from there. It was weird. It just happened then. Sometimes you need that bit of luck though. You need that. If you want to be a footballer, you need luck. You've got to take that opportunity. I mean, then I played a couple of games and they bought Alan Smith for 750, which was a lot of money. And then they were going to buy Tony Cotty at the end of the season who was a top centre forward. People forget how good he was because it wasn't called the Premier League at the time. People forget his gold scoring record. And he was going to come to Arsenal for three million quid. So that would have been the front two. And I'd have never played. I'd have never got in front of them too because they bought them for big money. And he chose to go to Everton. And I started the season with Alan Smith. We won the league. I got young PFA player of the year and from there, the rest is sort of history. And how was that then, coming on this scene, getting young player of the year, winning the league? Oh, living the dream. I mean, yeah, I couldn't cross that line. You know, I couldn't... Jules Graham always used to say, who you are, what you are, who you represent. Who you are, what you are, and who you are. And I couldn't get it. Come off a cancel, I lived in holes and then went to a cancel stay. And I just couldn't pull myself away. I was just a normal person. I didn't want to be any different. I played football. That was my job. But I wanted to be the same person. I wasn't a wine bar merchant. I wasn't drinking champagne. I'd go into the rough and ready pubs where they were going to stay open all night. And that was what I was like. And I just couldn't... I couldn't get away from that. I think a lot of people, especially fans behind the goals at places, never used to give me stick. I was very rarely... I got hammer bar at Tottenham grounds, because people behind the goal were like, he's one of us. He does what we do. But he plays football on a Saturday and that was the only difference. I was just a normal bloke. Did you want to feel part of that, though, instead of stepping out of that? You felt like quite a loner when you were younger. Yeah, I wanted to be normal. I always strived to be normal. When you become a professional footballer, you're dragged away from that normality. You're earning big money. You have a big job. Not so much in a bubble like they are now, but you have to look at... It is a different world. I'm not going to lie. It is a different world. And I couldn't understand that. I just never ever got to cope with money, neither. As soon as I started earning money, I wasn't comfortable because it wasn't a job. I was playing football. I was getting paid to play football, so when I gambled and lost all my money away, it didn't bother me. It was like a punishment, really. It was like, well, I shouldn't be getting this anyway. You're playing football. People are working. My dad's a Coleman. And you see people going to work, working on building sites and things like that. And that's work. My work wasn't work. My mate always used to say to me, I used to bet with Paul, you never go mad when you lose. It's like water off a duck's back. Because I just couldn't justify the money. Yeah, but do you think that was to try and block it out? Because I used to do bad things to get money to gamble. So I always thought, I'm not making it legit anyway, so I don't care. Even though it was a lot of money. So do you think we try and convince ourselves that what we're doing is not a job? Because it's still a craft. It's an art for you to get to the level. Do you think it makes it easier on yourself to think that way? Yeah, I definitely think that's the thinking. Because now I wouldn't. Now I have to save. Do you know what I mean? If I want to go on holiday next year, I've got to save. I haven't even got a house. I rent a house. I have to work hard now. I don't want to give my money away now. I have to work very hard. Before I didn't justify it, even though I was very gifted at what I'd done and I do believe I was gifted, that it was easy come, easy go. And it was. Even now, I have to give my money to my wife. I'm dangerous with money. I'm dangerous. I don't want it. It becomes a different world with me when I've got money. So you weren't clear for the year were you drinking, taking gear and gambling then? No, I hadn't found gear by then. I was only, what was I then? That was 91. So I was 22, 23. Yeah, at the time to look back to be voted the best young player in the country from every professional footballer in the country is like, that's a massive thing. Massive thing. You know, but I was drinking. But drinking then it was like. Acceptable. It was funny. You know, it's like, like it is now. It's like, like you hear people. And the amount of times I used to hear people go, I used to go and go for a bet now and I go, oh mugs game, mugs game. And like, I used to do my head in. I used to hate it. I used to think, well, so really you're just calling me a mug then. Why don't you just say you're a mug? You know, but they call it a mugs game. But if I turned round to him and went, I went out last night, I had 20 pints, went on one, didn't come home for a couple of days. It's funny. Really? Where'd you go? I bet that was blinding. What happened? Where'd you end up? They wouldn't go, oh, what's a mug, but you didn't go home. What a mug. And that, that was the difference. Do you know what I mean? It was like, I still think now we're gambling. The stigma of gambling is still, but you don't put anything in you. So just, just man up, you know, be stronger, which is a load of shit. Yeah. Why are you throwing away money? Yeah, why are you throwing away money? And I used to feel like that because, you know, imagine how I used to feel. When I used to lose my money, I used to go around my mum and dad's and think, I could have give that to my mum and dad. Do you know what I mean? My mum and dad live in a council house. Even though when I earn money, I did say, do you want to get out, out of here, you know, and I'll buy a house at the time. But when they were comfortable and they love where they live, they know everybody on the estate and they like it and they've been there for years and they're comfortable. But I still used to get that feeling, you know, that I could have give that to someone. I could have give that to someone when I lost the money. That was, you know, and when you get like that, you feel like that, you think, how do I get out of this? But then when I found the drugs, I mean, I'd never seen something bring me to my knees so quickly, if I'm being honest. What is it that you realize you had a gambling problem? It's only when I look back now, 53 years of age, a long, long, long, long, long time ago. I mean, probably at 16. At 16. Star kid, man, innit? Yeah, at 16. I mean, I was doing all my wages straight away. I was the same. Sure. When I was in Albion, played for Albion Rovers. Sometimes I had to walk home. They also had to skip the train because I'd done my tank in the first day when we used to get work ash. And then everybody was going home back to Glasgow. I was staying in the bookies and then I had to either walk home or get the train and skip in. I had to jump in. If I'd seen the conductor, jump out of the train, run up and trying just to get home. And then I had to fucking walk home from the train station. Unbelievable. I mean, that's the things we do when we gamble. I mean, it is like, lucky enough, we had a train pass. So, you know, the club had bought us a train pass. But, you know, I had 100 pounds to last me for a month. I mean, that was gone straight away. When did it start affecting your game pool? I don't think... Drugs could affect in my game, you know, drugs and drink, gambling. When I look back now, I don't know, I used to hate nightgames. Hated nightgames, because I knew I couldn't sleep in the daytime. I found it hard enough getting to sleep at night with my problems, but at daytime to go into a hotel and just sit there in a room the size of this with a bed and a TV and wait to the game. By the time the game come around at 7.45 or 7.30 in M-days, I'd be knackered. I'd be literally drained. I'd be like, you know, people go, I love playing under the lights. You can't beat a night game. I couldn't stand it. Couldn't stand a night game. You know, gambling... You always think, well, it can't be the gambling, but I know people, if people were gambling now with professional footballers and they have a problem, I reckon you could put another 30, at least 30% on their game. Yeah. So, seeing your playing, did any of the George Graham see any telltale scenes? In M-days, there's no phones. No phone cameras or anything. You used to get letters consistently. You'd call me in on Monday. Or call me in Wednesday, like, I've got loads of letters here. You was out on Saturday night, paralytic. You was here or you there. You there. And I'd go, that's Tottenham fans. They're just trying to wind you up. Do you know what I mean? They're having a go. I was indoors. Mm-hmm. Because you went how many trophies? Arsenal 5? Yeah. When the FA Cup, the league twice. The League Cup and the Cup. And the Cup 5, yeah. How was that then? Like, can you enjoy those moments when you're wanting to see if you've got addictions that's fucking hard? You can't enjoy anything because you're constantly thinking about it. So, what was it like as a footballer at the top of his craft? Everybody loved that. You are adored by the Arsenal fans. Like, when you won in the Cup, what else cup were you thinking? I just wanted to get out of here and put a bet on. Can't remember anything. Yeah, I never lived in the moment. Never lived in the moment. Yeah, it's a shame. I mean, when the documentary, when it started the other week, when I first watched it, my eyes, when we won the league, when we was in the dressing room, my eyes, I was just looking at everybody. It was like, just like not there. That come home to me more than anything at the start of that program of just looking into space. Like, I talked to my best mate now, Perry Groves. He could tell me everything that happened that night. I couldn't tell you anything. Couldn't tell you anything. Couldn't tell you walked in the dressing room, who come in and congratulated us. You know, they say that, like the other team come in, Liverpool and give us a lorry load of champagne. I don't remember any of it. And that's where it's a shame. You can't live in the moment when you're an addict. When you're a suffering addict who's still bang at it, you can't live in the moment. It's impossible. How about Big Tony Adams? Because I know he had these problems. Did you speak about your problems then or did you both sweep it under the carpet? Yeah, no. Everybody was doing it. Do you know what I mean? No, the lads weren't doing drugs. I mean, that's when I drifted away from the lads then. I started going out on my own. I didn't want them to know. But no, it was just a norm. I mean, Tony went into prison. I mean, he went into prison for drink driving. He still come out and drunk again. I mean, that's the insanity of, you know, he wouldn't have looked at it. You know, I've been done, you know, drink driving, things like that. I never, you know, you don't look it and go, my God, I've got, you know, drinking problem. It's a denial. And that's what happened with Tony. And then when I got sober and then Tony got sober, you know, sort of on the back of me, really, seeing my life how it had changed around how I wasn't drinking. I was enjoying life. And then, you know, lucky enough, he went and got sober and has been sober a long, long time. I went back again and went back constantly. And that's the thing that scares me to death is how the, how, you know, this addiction, how badly you know how it works. And it still takes you back to something that you know you can't do. I'm just surprised you still managed to stay at the top of your craft for so long. Yeah. I was gifted. I'm not going to be big-headed. I was gifted. I didn't work at my game. I didn't, if I'm being honest. I stayed fit. But not too many people taught me what to do. Do you think you discredit yourself a lot, Paul, as well? Like, from 10 years old, getting told, you can't play football again, wet in the bed. You can't do this. And then, but look at your skills. Look at the goals you've achieved. Look at the trophies that you've won. Do you feel as if you discredit yourself as well, that you don't feel you're good enough? You know what? I've only just started in the last year or so, James, of, like, when people come up to me and go, oh, you're a legend. Oh, what a great player. My favorite player. You know, today I go, thank you. Before I used to go, no, don't be silly. No, of course I'm not. Because I used to think, if you only knew what I was doing, you know, you wouldn't think I was great. You'd think I was a fucking whatever. But now I've come to think, you know, that's the person's opinion. And I could play. I was a good player. I could do things that other people couldn't do. And, you know, but I still don't, I never, I find it strange, like, even today, like, I could be in a room and I still walk in that room and I'm very, you know, I just normal. And then I'll see another player walk in or an ex-player walk in and they'll bowl in and they'll be bright and they'll be chirpy. And I sit there and I think, you were shit, but look at it. You know what I mean? But that's the way they are. I'm a fair player. I like that, you know what I mean? But that's what I used to think. I used to think, oh my God, how can you be like that? You weren't even any good and you were like giving it the big one. But they're not giving it the big one. They just love themselves. And I mean that in a nice way. You know, you've got to love yourself. If you don't love yourself, you can't let anyone, no one else is ever going to get near you. Because in Poster syndrome, I've been hearing quite a lot because people tell me your podcast, I think what you're doing amazing. I walk away and think, I can't because part of me still feels like the fraud. Part of me still feels like the lying bastard, the cheating bastard, the gambling addict, the compulsive liar. Part of me still feels that in me that I think even doing this kind of stuff is just another mask to pull the wheel over people's eyes. That's the addict, isn't it? That's why we have to rewire our brains. That's your head. The addict wanting to get you back. You know, they want you to get back. It's only that you've got, and the more years you get, the more days, the more months, the more years, you understand that. Even you're aware of that the way you talk. But other people won't. Do you know what I mean? And it's like, when you get them feelings and we've had them feelings, that's what takes you back. It's like, the amount of times I'd go out drinking and won't come home. And I had no intentions. I'd go to the pub. I had no intentions of getting up in the morning and going to the pub and going, I'll fucking show you. You know, I'll get you into a two and eight tonight by not coming home to my wife. I didn't have them intentions. My intentions are to go out, have a good time and be home at whatever time. As soon as I had that first drink it just completely went out the window and then you start feeling bad and then I'd be gambling and I'd lose all my money and I'd come home and my wife would have a go at me and rightly so. Of course, why wouldn't you? And then I'd feel self-esteem would go. I'd hate myself, self-worth. How am I going to get out of this? Why do I keep feeling like I know what I do? Have a bet. Have a bet you won't feel like this and you don't. The world becomes a different place again and that was what it was like. It was being stuck on a broken record. You know, like on an LP where it was just going around and I couldn't get off. And I didn't know how to get off. I didn't want to get off if I'm being honest because I was comfortable. 36 years or 30 odd years of doing what I was doing was very comfortable. But that was the norm. It become the norm. Were you enjoying your football at any stage? Oh, I loved playing football. That 90 minutes when I crossed the white line that was like my release. It was like whatever was going on off the pitch with the people that I owed money to or what I was doing and my life at home weren't happy. That 90 minutes was like, ah, I'm going to go out and do what I want. I'm going to go out. I played for a team. Of course I did. I was a team player. I was more worried about the team and you could ask anybody that. But I would go out and try things. I'd try things. If it didn't work and fans would go, ah, f**k it. I'd think, not a problem. If you knew my problems off the pitch that's not a problem. Losing the ball. And the lads used to go, stop trying to hit the glory ball. But I played risk. My risk off the pitch was gambling and drinking and I'd take that chance. I'd been in crack houses before playing for England. And I'd be sitting there in a massive pile and a big knife out of a film. You know, like you see it in a film, it's like, and someone would come in to score and they'd look at me and then I'd go, nah, and walk out. They'd think, I can't be him. How can that be him? He plays for England. He plays for Arsenal. Why would he? He wouldn't be in here. And like the madness. If there was phone cameras around in the end of the day, someone would have took a picture. I'd have never played football again. You know, I do find myself fortunate in that way that someone was looking after me in a way where, you know, I didn't get in the trouble I should have gone in. Do you think that's why you played so well in games? Because you thought, fuck it, if I lose, or if I give the ball away, I've got more problems than I say anyway, so I don't care. So you had more, there was no as much pressure playing. Yeah, I played with no risk and I enjoyed it. That's the only thing I knew doing. I was shit at betting. I was a big drinker. I was a big drinker. But I was shit at betting and I was good at football. Really good at football. And that was it. I was comfortable playing football. The only time I walked out into a pitch and I was comfortable in me, like when I was off the pitch, I'd never feel, I'd feel itchy. I'd feel, I just didn't, never felt right. You know, when I went to bed at night I'd be twisting and turning. I never ever felt right in my own body. I never felt settled like I do now. You know, I don't know if that sounds right or what, if people understand that, but yeah, I just, I just felt itchy, like uncomfortable in myself. What is the Geforcecourt UD hub? 94. So what was that? That was 20, 26, 26, 25, 26. I mean, that's the thing, James. Time passes. I like, people go to me the other day, how long you've been on the sky and someone told me I think it's about 14 years. I would have said seven. Do you know what I mean? It's like, it goes so quickly and so the biggest game I played in was 32 years ago. 32 years ago. It's like, you know, that's like, I haven't got another 32 years in me. If I lived another 32 years, I'd be the happiest man in the world. Do you know what I mean? But it's, it's, it's one of them situations where about 20, 20, the PFA and the FA made me going. I was for the drink and the drugs. I was in a bad way. The drugs brought me to my knees. I mean, the paranoia. They're not going to bed. You know, I'd be, be in nightclubs with flip flops on and shorts. Cause I'd, I'd go to the pub in flip flops and shorts. Cause I, I thought if I go in flip flops and shorts, I'm not going out. I got to go home at 11 o'clock. Cause I, you can't get in anywhere with flip flops and shorts on in nightclubs. And cause of what I was, I'd get in, you know, I'd turn up and I, you know, people would be in them days, people dancing on the dance floor. Do you know what I mean? You know, I'd be going up to people and I'd be going, you got any gear? You got any gear? And like people are like, they like, literally be looking at you like, go, it can't be him. It can't be. And then I go and get my gear and I go home and I'd lock myself in and, you know, I'd sit indoors and do it all the time. Like, I'd be sitting indoors watching telly with my wife. And then I'd go to the toilet and, and take a line and come back and watch telly. And it took me to my knees. I mean, it took me 10 minutes. I used to live 10 minutes from the training ground and it used to take me an hour to get to work. If a car was behind me for like 30 seconds, I'd think they're after me. They're going to, they're going to kill me. And I'd pull over and wait for that car to go. And I think, oh, you know, and then I'll go back on the journey again and some another car be behind me. And it was like, now in the end, I think I'm just going to pull over it, pull in front of this lorry. Did you ever take a drink or gear before? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not before, on the Sunday before played a big cup winners cup game against PSG. Second leg, drew the first leg in part the France one or, and I went out the Sunday, took a load of gear and I couldn't take that chance. I told him I had a sore throat, you know, and I wasn't well. Cause I thought if I planned this game and I fouled drugs test being a European game, that would be it. And I missed that game. What was your score? We won 1-0. We went on and won the cup winners cup final, but that was, that was the only time I was, I was a functional light. I was a typical first line, first drink. One line or one drinks too many and a hundreds not enough. Yeah. So, you know, I could go four or five days without, easy. You know what I mean? It's just as soon as I had, that was it. It just completely and utterly took over. It fascinated me, even at the end of my drinking, I'd be in the pub and lads would come in and have two points and go on. And I'd sit there and I'd like be, how'd you do that? But David Seaman tell you the story when he signed for Arsenal. What did he sign in 90 or 91? So I'm 22 then, about 22. And we were coming back from preseason training. He was giving me a lift back. It was boiling hot day preseason. And he said, do you want to pop in, pop in the pub on the way home and have a pint? And I went, what one? And he went, yeah, I said, what's the point? I said, I'll come in if we're going to have a load. But if not, I might as well just come in and have a coat. And that was at 22 and I didn't know. I'm still talking like an alcoholic at 22 without even knowing. And he'll tell you that story now. He remembers it as plain as anything. And that's a shame. It's like that. When I, when I hear that and I hear myself say, I'm like, it's not the money. And like the money's gone. Like, you know, for how much it was. And it was a lot of money I lost. I lost time. Times like it was lost. Yeah. Yeah. And it was, it was, it was the madness. And when I used to want to kill myself, I used to think, how can I tell anybody this? You know, I'm playing for one of the best clubs in England. You know, Rolls Royce of a football club, Arsenal. I'm playing for England. I got the world at my feet. I'm earning good money. How can I go and tell someone what I'm doing and I want to kill myself? They'll think, and in them days, you know, there was nothing like it is now with mental health. It was like, I thought I'd be in a straight jacket. You can't be right. How could you even think like that when you got everything at your feet? And I just couldn't tell anyone. Were you getting your wages and rattling on that day? Yeah, I mean, as much whatever I could get, I would, I would bet. I mean, I won the league in 91 for the second time. So we won it 89. We won in 91. I bought a house in Wheat Amstead. Nice house in Wheat Amstead. Quite a big house. And we just won the league and I got on that night and the floor was concrete. Like I chose to gamble instead of get carpet. I just couldn't get the carpet. And people say, well, people gamble, they gamble because they want more and more. Well, how, why, what am I gambling for to get silk carpet? You know, there's only one carpet. You know what I mean? It might be more expensive ones, but I chose to live on concrete floors. You know, my boy Charlie, I tell you, I lived in Birmingham in an apartment for 12 years. I didn't have blinds once for all the gambling I'd done. I just couldn't justify buying curtains or blinds. Yeah, that's how far the addiction to you. That's how far, you know what I mean? If you're getting the bookies with a grand, 10 grand, you would rather put the nine grand on her. Like now I used to gamble, I used to try and put half of what I had on. I used to try and double it. Pay back the people that I owed money to so I could still have that extra bit to gamble. But before you know it, you lose all that. Before you know it, you're fucking tapping somebody else or I was bumping somebody else to place a bet where sometimes I'd, I never had money to top up my phone. The car would die a petrol because I thought, fuck it. I'm just going to keep gambling until, it wasn't the fact of wanting the money, it was just the buzz. We spoke earlier, like if I had, if I had a rugby, I used to bet on a handicap bet and rugby league, I'd sit up to all those watching rugby and fucking New Zealand, so far we'd get. But if my bet was wanting, if it was cruising, I hated the feeling because my buzz, I wouldn't have a buzz. I just wanted the money to get put back into the game. So I could gamble on any next bet. That's how the power of the disease, my family, and that couldn't understand. But why do you keep doing that? Let's save your money. Let's save your money. And I'm thinking, nah, sneak away lying, like had the kids in the car, I used to get into the bookies, pawn at everything. Yeah. Like it takes you to the fucking brink of hell. Like, did you have a good network? Arsenal seemed like a good team at the time, a little like Ian Wright, Sol Campbell. Oh, I played with Sol. I played for Sol with England, but I never, yeah, they were good people. You know, they were shot, they were majorly shot when I come out with my drug situation. They didn't know that. You know, gambling was, it was, it was, you know. Football thing as well wasn't it? Yeah. It was a football thing. The drinking, we had a massive Tuesday club, which was well known around London and up and down the country, but, but we, we were a good team. So we got a way of it because, you know, everybody else was doing it, but we were better players and a better team. And we, we worked hard. We, we, we boozed hard or whatever we done, but we, we trained hard. You know, George was like, quite clever, like go out, enjoy yourself. We go Mar Bayer three times a year, you know, team spirit, that was the thing that would win us things. Not our, because we wasn't a good team. In my opinion, we wasn't a great team. 91 was decent, but we, we, we added togetherness, even though the lads, we didn't all get, we weren't all best mates. We weren't like, we all went out with our wives on a Saturday, far from it, but on a Saturday, everybody would work their nuts off for each other. What was Bear Camp like when he came? Yeah. He was like, I remember we played, we was in Norway or Sweden on, on tour. And it was his first session. I remember we were walking back to the hotel because he used to stand in a little town where there would be nothing there. And all the lads were like, wow, in the Milan must be good. If they're letting him go, like he was the best player I've ever played with by a million miles. Yeah. Yeah. It was light. But then he didn't fly. He wouldn't fly. So it's weird. You know what I mean? He's a great player, but he wouldn't fly. So there's something, you know what I mean? There's something there. Do you know what I mean? You know, it's weird how it works. You know, it's weird how everybody's different and everybody is. I remember years ago, I was lying on a cycle. I used to go and see a psychiatrist when I was about 22. I used to lay on the couch. And I used to go, I want to be like Alan Smith. I want to be like, I played with a lad up front. I want to be like him. You know, he lives his life right. He lives his life properly. You know, he goes home to his wife and kids. You know, I go straight out. I don't want to go out, but I just find that I'm always out. I'm always searching for something different. And she said, everybody's different. And that, that's all I needed to hear. That was it then. I didn't go back. It justified me. Like I'm different. I'm not like you. So I, what I'm doing is nothing wrong with it. I'm just different to you. And I thought, well, I'm not paying you 150 a week anymore. I'll have that. Do you know what I mean? And that is, I justified that then that I was just different. You know, that I was different to him. So what I was doing was no different. It could have been him, but it's me. You kind of accepted that. Yeah. I, I accepted that I could be like that. Did you ever look at other people's lives who you fought had it together and was envious that he's going home. He's missing. He's saving his money. They're buying property. Oh, I've only just started over the last year or so not wishing I was someone else. I've never ever, I've never ever, as I said, I've never felt comfortable with my body. I always, I wish I was like him. I was, why can't I be like him? You know, when I grew up, being a big massive Chelsea fan, you know, he was captain of Chelsea. You know, and they say, don't meet your heroes. And I met, you know, he was the nicest bloke I've ever met and I always wanted to be like him. Do you know what I mean? And even the end before he passed away, God bless him. You know, we were at the football meet Kate and Freddie with him. You know, having a meal at Chelsea before the game and, you know, always wanted to be like Ray Wilkins. You know, always wanted to be like someone else. It's sad to think that so many people would want to have been like you. I ain't sure. You don't want to be. Yeah, they might have. They might have wanted to be, they might have wanted to be the footballer who was good at football, who won stuff, who could entertain and play football. But you, you wouldn't, you wouldn't, you wouldn't want to have been my addiction. You wouldn't. You just, I don't know anybody who would have. It's the worst thing in the world. It's to have addictions like this. I mean, I used to go to Florida and in the time we used to go Florida all the time. And I never used to have to save up. You know, we'd go Florida. And I used to, you know, we'd stand at the top hotels and I'd get there and I'm like, but then I'd be in the car and I'd see a family who'd probably saved forever, had nothing, but saved to get there. And they're happy and laughing and joking. I used to think, I wish I was like you. I wish, why can't I be like that? Why can't I be happy? Do you know what I mean? And I just couldn't. And it was nobody else's fault. You know, I don't want people going, the kids to go, was it us or no? It was me. You know, it was my addiction. You know, I just, I'm never happy. Always searching. That's where it's sad. Always searching for something different. Always searching for that. Yeah. But it's searching for the external things. Stuff that's never going to take away a pain. It just adds to the pain. Yeah. Makes it 100 times worse the next day and the next day. But we keep chasing it because it's a very short blast of those dopamine levels where we think life is okay when we're betting our fucking drugs or hookers or whatever the fuck it is to get that little kick. Realising it only eventually adds up when the mindset just eventually dissolves. But when did you leave Arsenal 97? 97. I got offered a lot of money to go to Middlesbrough. I'd just been offered a four-year contract to Arsenal and Middlesbrough offered me £350,000 a year more than what Arsenal did. Arsenal offered me £650,000 a year, four-year contract. And Middlesbrough offered me £1 million. Now, that's hard enough to turn down if you're not an addict. But when you're an addict and you're a compulsive gambler and you're getting your feed out of gambling, I just couldn't turn it down. I couldn't turn it down. I went to Middlesbrough. My wife at the time never come. And after a month, I would give the money back. Were you in debt at that time? I've always been in debt. I don't think there's a time I've never been in debt since I was 17. 18, never been not been in debt. You know, like always having to do something to pay. You know, write a book, pay that. Write a book, pay that. Do this to do that. You know, always. Sign for them that you get a sign in on fee. Pay that. You know, it's always that hand to that hand out. Never. See, if you're getting money off like loan sharks and stuff, they know that I'm not getting it back. Does that play a big effect? They keep giving me money as well. Do you ever think that you're just getting used as well, where a lot of people weren't getting that money back? They knew that, but yeah, they would still feed you money. Not so much the loan sharks, if I'm being honest, because the loan sharks don't know what you're doing. The people that I bet with, the underground people that I bet with, I do get that. I think you knew, you know, you knew and these betting companies that, you know, you're having 60, 70 bets a day, they know. Do you know what I mean? And that sort of hurts sometimes. You know, people go, oh yeah, but he's a grown-up, he's four-year-old. No, the age goes out the window. It doesn't matter if you're 16 or 82. Do you know what I mean? If you're addicted, you know, and sometimes that disappoints me, but you have to let go. I mean, I don't, old grudges now, I don't get bitter or twisted. I mean, what's the point? You know, I live my life now. They had my money and they took it like taking candy off a baby. Did you ever bet on yourself? Never. Never. Once I was, once I did bet on myself to win and we lost, I had 60 grand on us when I was at Portsmouth and I had a bet when I was at Walsall to win. One of them we won, one we got beat. Yeah, but never, never bet against ever, ever. Wouldn't do that in a million years. The day I'd done that, all the jumps off a bridge. But I think that shows you your character as well, that even though you were a compulsive liar, a fucking, a gambling addict, a drug addict, but you still wouldn't bet against your teammates. Cos I was a winner. I was playing, I would've, I would've fixed matches. I would've been fucking jumping for penalties and getting sent off and doing whatever I could. Yeah, I love winning. I love winning, I hate losing. I mean, I'd done an advert last week with Jamie Carragher and Karen Carney and Micah Richards. Me and Micah are in the same team and we lost the quiz and I was fuming. And Jamie was laughing his head off. He thought it was funny, but, and Karen couldn't believe it and I was like, I played to win. You know, if I'm doing something I want to win and if I don't win, I get the ump. So I would never ever do that. That was my one buzz, was winning football matches. You know, that was, and if I ever done and went against that, what's the worth in living? What's the biggest bet you've put on? A 150. That won? I'm sitting here and I. No, I got beat. Got beat. Yeah. No, I got beat. Yeah. Yeah, that's, and now like when I say, it's like, I'm fucking, why would I give one like to have 150 now? Do you know what I mean? I'll be able to buy a house or put a deposit down a house. It's, it's sad, but you have to laugh, you know, because if you don't, you know, you've got to let go, you've got to surrender. But he ain't saying to me, someone said to me like, what was, you hear it from, I've heard it from the age of 10 to now it's like, you know, if we, if we knew now what we knew, what we know now at 22, how different life would be, but how boring would that have been at the same time? Yeah. Do you know what I mean? You know, there's a, there's a journey, you know, and, you know, I have a story to tell, but my story now is to tell it to get people to understand not to go through it. You know, and I think people need to have a choice. I didn't know I was an ill person. I just thought I was a bad, bad person who was trying to be good all the time. And when that doesn't work out, which it's never going to work out, because you're just going to keep on going back, then it hurts. But you know, like some of the stuff, you know, I played in a World Cup final, like in a World Cup. I mean, it's, it's extraordinary. You know what I mean? It's like to be able to play in a World Cup is, you know, their things you dream of and to be doing what you want to do at that time is like madness. Who was that game against Argentina? Yeah, amazing. Like, you know, when you're playing for your country, like in a World Cup, you know, when you're going to take that penalty, like in the World Cup, even Tottenham fans are watching that game and they want you to score. Even though they hate you with a passion, they want you to score that day. And that's the only thing that ever time that brings Arsenal and Tottenham together is like when England are playing, and that's how big it is. You know, but I was always one of them of, was always the next year. Like, we won the league in 89. We won the league 89. But when you watch it the following year and someone else wins it and they're all celebrating, you think, wow, that was a massive thing what we did last year. Or with the FA Cup final or with a Cup winners' Cup. It's always the following year when you watch someone else celebrate and you think, wow, it's massive. But you're watching them and they're all in the moment. They're all in the moment. They're all enjoying it. You don't realise until afterwards how big it was. Because you were living it, you didn't realise how big it actually was to let the fans and family, friends, that. You must have made so many people proud as well even though you know what you were doing was wrong but you'd give people around you so many good memories. It's a fucking great thing as well. But sometimes we can talk about the past as if it's all dark. Oh, kick your achievements. Yeah, oh. Fuck's sake to win the league twice. The Cup winners' Cup. Do you know when the league and the league cup in the FA Cup was in season? Yeah. There's not 100 players done that. No one had done that for God knows how long and then Liverpool wouldn't have done it a few years later. It's a major feat. They're one-off football matches. It's not like the league where you have a bad 45 minutes or a bad 90 minutes in in a Cup game and you're out. Don't matter how good you are. It happened when we went to Wrexham. Yeah. Yeah. There's been a lot of positives. Don't get me wrong. You know, don't get me wrong. But, you know, there's been a lot of dark days. You know, a lot of dark days. You know, when you want to kill yourself, they're not good days. But you know what, brother, you're fucking through it. Yeah. Today I'm through it. Some people never got through it. No. Some people did kill themselves. Yeah. Some people couldn't handle the pressure. They own the people money. They're constantly lying that. Some people have not made it here. You're clearly here for a reason. What was this stage? What was the closest you ever came to killing yourself, Paul? Took a load of tablets. Load of tablets. Enough tablets. I started taking a bit more, but obviously, you know what, I don't know if I was weak and I shit myself or, you know, I was brave and I thought, you know what, I don't want to do this. You know, I want to get, I want to, I'm going to give it a go or, I don't know. I don't know if I was scared and I was, I shit myself. I don't know. Sometimes I want to give myself credit and think, you know, you were brave. You like, you went, no, I'm going to get through this. Something was on my shoulder. You know what I mean? What it may be, I don't know, but there was times when I'd gone home and put a, a rope around the curtain rail thing, like, and like, I wanted to do, like hang myself. You know, it was up. It was up. You know, things like that. It's like, but after that, it was like, something was always in, something was there, like, it would be better. You know, you always believed. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I try and live my life like now, like, you know, I'm powerless over people, places, things and situations. Every day is different. You know what I mean? The name, just try, for anybody listening, try and get through that day. You know, it might be 10 minutes, it might be five minutes. You know, I've had days in the last year, I'm not going to lie where I've wanted to bet. You know, for everything I've done and how great life is, and, you know, the accolades Paul's getting, because he's, you know, he's got sober and he's, you know, with his addictions, he's not gambling. I've had days when I've wanted to go back. You know, that scares me. And I've had to get, go five minutes through the day, get through the next five minutes, get through the next five minutes, get through the next 10. And before, you know, it passes again, you know, there's a lot of blocking in the way now. There's a lot of blocking. I can't just think fuck it and put a bet on in two minutes. I can't do that anymore, which is, which is a relief. You'll lose everything again, and whether you get out, you know what, I lose, you know what, it ain't the money, it ain't the money, it'd be the time, it'd be the dignity, it'd be myself respect. You know, people respect me today. Do you think you had it? You've got another recovery on you? No. That's the question as well. I don't think I have, because I know, I know now. You know, I know that it's not right. You know, that's the one thing I think when you start getting well and I've been six years without a drink once, I went six years without a drink and I went into treatment for gambling, went into Arizona. They sent me in there for gambling, didn't want to go, come straight back out, flew back, landed straight to the off license. Wait a minute. I've gone six years without a drink. I never drunk wine. Never drunk wine. Let's try wine. Wine might be better. I was drinking light lager and brandy. But a lot of people drink wine now. So let's try wine. That might be the one. Four bottles later up the off license. Back to square one again. And it becomes unenjoyable because you know, you're sitting there and you're drinking and you know you're an alcoholic and you know there's only one way out and it's, that's the insanity of this disease is that it will keep on telling you, it's all right. It's all right. Yeah, I'm gonna say I'm like, everything I still think about gambling or hear a result on the radio that would have been a nice one half time full time. The thing is now public, we're not acting on it. Yeah. The thoughts are always going to pop up and we're having a bad day. Now I'm addicted to fucking sugar. I just want to eat cakes. I have a bad day. I'm just eating shit. I'm not drinking, taking gear and gambling where then I'm not seeing my kids and then I'm not doing anything with my life and then I feel like a loser. Yeah. And then I'm that low vibrational people. I'm hanging around with the same crowd that you've got to give yourself credit for what you're achieving and fucking finding the strength to go, you know what, I ain't doing it anymore. Yeah. I want to fight for my life. I want to give something back and yeah. Did you find that with your own life you had a lot of leeches around you because you're a professional footballer as well? No, not really. I was a loner if I'm being honest. Like people go to me. Like I go to dinners every now and then and I'll do a dinner up north and I'll sit on a table and there'll be like nine other people on the table and there'll be all mates like 40 odd years of age and only each other since I was at school and I find that sad like not for them my addiction took me away from friends, took me away from people wanting me on my own so I've really I've got a lot of friends and I don't mean that in a horrible way but I haven't like got loads of friends you know my addiction took me away from that. Yeah. Because you don't want to let them down either so the less people in your life the less people you're hunting. Yeah. And I don't want people, I don't want to sit around people that will go to me what you're drinking for you know let's go home now or you know why are you betting like a maniac I don't want to be around them people my addiction don't want me around them people addiction wants me on my own I mean we had a flat we rent a house but around the corner my wife's got a one-bedroom flat literally the back of the house sort of thing around the corner and I'd plan it I'd get up Sunday morning and I'd start an argument she'd go I'll get out you're getting on our nerves and I'd go alright bye and I'd take I'd go straight around the corner go to the off-license get a lorry load of drink and everything and I'd just sit and punt for three days solid like not go to sleep just bang bang bang because my addiction wanted me in him after I lost everything I'd go back with my towel between my legs and I'd go really sorry I didn't mean to do what I'd done and it wouldn't be alright but it would be right in time you know my wife's my wife I was fortunate you know how things work is my wife's mum's dad was a it was a compulsive gambler so she knew like my wife would go I'm going to leave or I've had enough he hates me her mum would go no he's not well he needs to get help and that was a blessing because otherwise I'd be on my own now who would stick around with with me you know I mean you're losing everything not coming home and gambling everything and lying I mean lies were like scary I mean you know compulsive gamblers I do think you know if this was in the Olympics lying we'd represent in England we'd represent our country up and down I would have a fucking all around the world all around the world I mean my wife would say to me like she'd be indoors and she'd go I don't want to do this tomorrow how do I get out and I'd go bang my baby she'll go how the fuck do you remember how do you make that up that quick and I wouldn't know I just would just would it was scary and if I come home after being out a night or two nights if I told my wife a lie in a month's time I'd have forgot that lie you know because I'd have been drunk or hungover but with gambling I didn't get hangovers but like I'd been drunk but with gambling you got a clear head you know you tell a lie you remember it you know you keep one just you know it's another lie on top of a lie you know I used to say at a postman when I used to live over through the letterbox you keep every bank statement I bought my wife something on a credit card if she opens the statement when you know she'll know what the present is and I'll meet you next week and I'll get all the letters off you it was and I fucking gambled all my money away and I didn't want her to see it but they were the things you know what I mean like always thinking ahead always like one step ahead track cover your tracks yeah one step ahead you know I mean everything I've done you know like even have a lawyer a lawyer like my mate you know there was no mobile phones in them they said I'd have a lawyer like my mate my make out he's a lot if I ring you and I go alright sounds so and he make out he's a lawyer and then I go you know my wife would be upstairs my first wife she'd be listening on the phone I know she'd be listening and I go right there's an article in the paper like on Sunday paper this morning I need to sue the paper I can't have this this is a ridiculous I didn't even happen and it'd all be planned and he'd go Paul you can't do that you can't do that you haven't got the money to do that these papers can't lose you know you'll have to go call you'll have to it'll cost you fortunes will you win and I'll go oh well I ain't got the money to do that and he said well you just gotta let it go if he's not true don't worry I put the phone down and I know my wife's listening upstairs my first wife put the phone down it's my fucking mate he ain't a lawyer you know what I mean but that's the madness it's like it's the madness you know it's it was you know I used to in the end I used to think if I'm not on the front page of the paper I'm doing alright like that means I'm alright you know and that was that was the thing I used to judge myself from the front pages of the paper if I'm if I'm not on them I'm being good I'm being good seeing your career started to come to an end then how hard was that to you for you to look back you think I've got fuck all you know what are you glad I don't know I don't know the money wise I mean I look back now you know I was a millionaire I was playing for Arsenal you know earning unbelievable money you know had a nice car big house I wanted to kill myself umpteen times umpteen times umpteen times and and I was a millionaire so the money is irrelevant and I know people will sit there and rightly so and go oh that's easy saying that because you were a millionaire what about if you ain't got any money sometimes that's even it's even worse when you have got money because if you feel like that and you ain't got any money you always got that thing the back of your head is if I had money that would be the that would be the the problem solved which it wouldn't be because it's up here it's not in your pocket but you know I had it and I still wanted to do that you know someone who's got nothing who wants to kill himself they've got that thing if I did have money I'd be alright you wouldn't you wouldn't and it's and that's the problem now I don't don't get me wrong I like money I used to love money because it fed my addiction I used to love it but now now I like it because it gets us food and you know and I've got to save up to get a future for our kids and and then I've got to save up to go on holiday do you know what I mean and if we want if the microwave breaks you know I save up to a new microwave you know things like that you know they're they're achievements now you know I fly on holiday and I'm like save for this holiday save yeah you know it's not like it's not like but I've been to Florida and yeah the amount of times I've been to Florida and like and and like I go to go to the room after after like eight days in or so and the key don't work and I've got no money on my card you know they've locked the door do you know what I mean all like them kind of things because they my credit's run out you know my card's max because I've lost it but I didn't know like at the time you know I'm gambling you know it's like like all them like horrible things do you know what I mean I don't sit and worry about having to put the key in the door anymore on holiday or being a big queue whatever shopping I'm in and and I put my card in and I literally pray please get let's go through you know I know now there's my wife looks after the money and I know there's money in there when I go to the shop it's a horrible disease I remember my dad was dying with leukemia here and like at three months to go the family used to go for dinners and stuff to try and obviously these last few months I used to just sit in the house place bets on the laptop and smoke joints because that was more I wanted to do that first that's a big part I regret that I think fuck me how much of a fucking mess I was like couldn't go and spend the last few meals with the people that you love but because I was partly broken as well I was hurting like people need to understand the disease like every day I wanted to quit every morning I woke up thinking fuck this I'm not not today once I get washed brush my teeth I need to get a bet on I need to feel something I need to feel a part of myself I get up every morning and pray don't be selfish don't be selfish today that is one thing you become when you're in addiction as you become a selfish person and that's the addiction that's not the person do you know what I mean if you had that time around tomorrow you'd be at every meal you would it's as simple as that but I was talking to someone the other day and they said you know I'm struggling with gambling I'm struggling my kid was in intensive care at the weekend and I still chose to bet but that's the way it is to get out the way he feels he's not a bad person he doesn't not love his kid he's not well he's not well and that's the thing with this it's such a it's a hideous disease it's a hideous disease it will keep on you know the best thing I've ever heard is it's out there doing press-ups you know if someone said to me Jane you can never have another drink or a drug for the rest of your life I'll be back out today I would because I can't do that I just can't do that it's impossible but I get up in the morning and I say I won't do any of them today it's doable I can get through the day with that but I can't look any further than that honestly if you said to me never again I couldn't do it I couldn't have that fall in my head of not having that buzz again but I can go without that buzz for a day when did you realise okay Annie I'm going to give life I'll go here I'll put my hands up and I've got so many issues and I'm going to try because you've done it without a boost for six years and you've done the gambling like I've done two years and as soon as I drank again I opened it off the restroom I just ripped the whole ceiling down it was full self sabotage for a year the reason why I quit so fast again is because I know how good I'd felt the two years I was off at I know how life was okay I wasn't and that I wasn't switching my phone off I wasn't pretending I'd lost my phone I wasn't the bullshit that I was for so many years but when did you decide for the last it's never wouldn't say the last time but I hope it's the last time I hope it's the last time the last lockdown like when I was playing for Arsenal I bought like my three boys that bought their mum a house and you know you'd think that was their future you know what I mean and then I got twins in Birmingham and you know I bought a house there and when we got divorced their mum had the house so you think their future was and I got three little kids now and it was we saved up we have to save our do you know what I mean I have to save our and we were saving up for a deposit for a house to give the kids a future do you know what I mean to like when I'm not about that there's just something there for them and I've got hooked on the news in lockdown I was watching the news every day I'd swap my addiction you know I was news news you know five o'clock or six o'clock I'm watching Boris Johnson and the other two lads like and I'm feeding all this into me and my brain was telling me that's it I'm not working again there's not going to be another suit another soccer Saturday because they'll be playing you know they're playing one game at a time so everybody can watch them at home and and I got scared I got anxiety attack and the addict in me was like you've got to race this up race this this money is not going to be enough to buy a house and it's not going to be enough money to live on for the rest of our lives because what am I going to do for a job and I gambled it all the way and that was it for the next week my wife had known and watching the kids on the sofa and I was thinking fuck I've just done all my money I've just let you all down and the the hate for myself was like overwhelming I wanted to kill myself and I thought that's it no more you know and that it was a lot of money and I always used to think if you've got a lot of money you've got a chance you know I'd never start off with like 200 or 300 I'd have to have a lump you know I used to think you know if I've got a lump and then I've got a chance of winning because I can bet what I need to bet on and and that was it I told my wife and wow she went like you'd expect and that was it since that day I haven't had a bet and I think that that was that was it now I have to start again and try and save up to try and get a house I'm 53 you know you see now and I don't like looking forward but you know when I was a kid and I used to come home and my mum and dad would go or the tall kid would go sounds so passed away 75 and you know sounds so passed away 73 or when you're a 10 year old or 12 or 14, 15 you know you go good innings good innings that it is you're 12 or 13 I'm 53 now 73 is not like you know it's it's you know when you look at it like that and I look and I go 33 32 years ago we played against Liverpool and it seemed like yesterday you know 32 years from now I mean it's not long away yeah how hard does it for your missies like when you've done it the last time for to try and convince that you're not going to do it again I don't I don't she has all the money so it's you know you know I she she always all looked after the money sort of thing and it was like I always had that resentment like you're not looking after my money I'm 50 years of age you know what I mean I do what I want to do and that was a bad bad thinking that was stinking thinking and now she looks after me she's in charge so when I get the car to go to the shop in the money will be on there to pay for the food you know and I know I ain't got to sit there and pray that this is going through and she has the money and now we got to try and save again you know and and I will I will I'm one of them people that I have to have goals when I went into treatment many many years ago we sat around the table and they went what's your goal and I went play for England again and they were like whoa we need to bring that down a bit you know what I mean you know you're sitting in here for drugs and drinking you know you'll be lucky if you play for Arsenal again let alone England and I did you know what I mean when I get something going I can get it going but it's when that happens and then after that I'm like what do I do now and that's what happened I played for England again and it was like now what and that's my problem every time it's it's hard but it's good it's a good hard if you know what I mean yeah but that's life yeah and that's the problem it is life but Paul's never lived in life Paul's never lived in Paul's lived in a a buzzy world the whole of his life 36 years of drinking betting gambling it's like that's not life that's like that's you might as well live on a spaceship you know I'm never in life I'm never in the moment never you know in life and today you know my life's either been up here or it's been down here it's never been in the middle and for 36 years I've searched for that middle just to be like that and you know the other week I was sitting indoors or the other month and my wife's always dubious now and like she's very aware of my mood and she said what's wrong and I said what's wrong in it it's boring and she went what do you mean I said well just here it's like every day is the same same and she went well was it better than when you was down here and I said I was a hundred times better than that a hundred time and she just looked to me and she said that's enough and it put it in perspective but I do I've searched all my life to be here and I used to love that up here and that buzz down here you know of trying to where am I going to get money from next where am I going to get my next bet on if I back that and I get out of trouble and I pay that and I'll get that and I was used to that that was the norm that was normal for Paul normal that was a normal life this life that I'm living now is like a little kid coming back into like starting off in the world it's like it's doing normal things like tonight I'm putting on the lights at Tether and it's like people are asking Paul to do things now before you know I've never ever been asked to be a god parent or best man or anything like that cause I can't rely on Paul but you know I appreciate and leave though oh yeah 100% 100% like things like today give me a buzzer now you know what I mean turning on the lights the kids will be buzzing they'll be happy and that's good like you know I got off at an unbelievable job tonight got this morning Jamie Redknapp rung me up said I got a job if you want it when I was bang out I would have took the job I wouldn't have cared about yeah if I would have cared so much I'm not being horrible but I would have I've fought my addiction but now it was like no I promise the kids I'm turning on the lights you know I go and watch my boy play football now he's at Chelsea Academy and he goes down to Arsenal every now and then and full on he goes to and you know I go and watch him train and I take him there and you know I come home my wife goes out and he do and I can tell her everything before I'd I'd be there but I wasn't there I'd be on my phone and you know we go upstairs and my boy play on his playstation and I go I'll come and watch you and I lay on the bed and all he could he was ever shouting down with mum dad's on the phone again dad's on the phone I was more interested in gambling you're reliable now oh reliable yeah in the present moment and the past does the past it's fucking cool I make your minds ask me would you be a good parent do you know what I mean that's never happened before in my life you know you get well the lights seven years you know never asked me to put the lights on now I'm reliable now I'm a good person you know I was a good person before but I'm a well person now they can rely on me to be there tonight you know over the last seven years they probably thought ain't sure about him do you ever think if you never played football who your leaf would have turned up turned out no I don't as it goes no I'd probably been in Tenerife working in a bar I would and that was me you know even now you know that was it you know like cocktail Tom Cruise film you know I'm playing for Arsenal England I want to be like that I want to be like that you know why can't I be working that ugly bar you know what I mean it's always always something else always wanting to be somewhere else or do something else never happy just keep trying to escape you yeah exactly today I'm happy today you know I could live in the day today you're on this podcast brother you should be fucking yeah yeah yeah yeah this is it no more podcasts after this fuck the pinnacle yeah fuck fucks it now your leaf has turned around you're on the podcast and you're switching on Christmas like for me fuck me cut one else cut me yeah exactly no exactly but they are these are the things that please me now you know them other things are gone now these podcasts this will change lives brother that your misery and pain at what you've battled through will change lives no so I you know if one person listens to it and they go that's me I need and it and I always say you know listen to the similarities don't listen to the differences you know don't you know if you're on if a football is on 50 grand a week or someone's on 50 grand a week and they're losing 25 grand a week and a postman is on 500 pound a week and he's losing 500 pound a week the postman has a hundred times worse a problem than the the footballer you know forget the 25 grand he's still got another 25 grand the postman is doing everything and that's why look at the similarities don't look at the differences yeah look at the differences and go oh yeah but that's not me that's not me I didn't play football you know this addiction takes anybody it don't matter if you're a postman a dustman a barrister the top lawyer you could be a multi-millionaire you know this will take everything yeah like I say mate the addiction the disease if you're on the million pound a hundred you wear your homeless whatever it is that disease is a disease it's the power of addiction so everything else is outside of you but everything in here if you're battling you're fucking gone and people need to understand if you're battling with drink, drugs, gambling whatever it is you're battling with if you've got kids family you are the all time loser you are an all time failure and it's hard to admit that but once you start admitting okay I need to change but think about your kids in the house and you're away gambling and drinking and taking drugs my mum was stayed in a rough area in Glasgow and I was making dodgy money but I had enough to probably get them out and fucking put them somewhere nice but I just wanted to fund the habit where nobody knew what I was doing nobody knew everything I'd done was in house now the extremes that I was going and how dark the fucking depression went with the gambling and then throwing in the drink and the drugs with that my head was fucking gone but for your status people will look at you in a different status and think fuck me otherwise you've got a morning complaint put everybody in a line everybody's the same they're all fucking battling some disease everyday is still a struggle exactly it's like now if I see something I like and my wife sees something I say buy it buy it and she goes oh it's a bit much I go buy it buy it you know what I mean I like see I remember having 8000 pound on table tennis players do you know what I mean I remember that I mean the money is you know if you you've got it enjoy it do you know what I mean it's not an addiction you don't want it to be an addiction but if you like something nice I work hard now do you know what I mean I have to work for my money I work hard and if I want to treat myself I want to treat myself do you know what I mean I don't get involved in addicted shopping I don't I don't because I can but I am addicted to sugar I you know I open a packet of sweets and them sweets are all going I mean they're all going and that's what it's like but it's been good I like I mean I wrote a book a couple a couple of months ago called hooked which is it's about my recovery about about what we talked about today and things like that and and there's hope it's hope you know it's hope for everybody it doesn't matter who you are you know it's start now this minute so if you know if someone's listening to this and they've they've had a drink and they've had a bet today I've had a drug a drug or whatever they've done today you can start you don't have to go oh you know what I'll start tomorrow because I'm already in it tomorrow never comes you know start when you can yeah who was it reading your your new book book that's your fourth book yeah fourth book you know but this was it was hard it was hard you know like when you get well when the fog gets away from the brain and your thinking becomes a little bit better you know like like 35 they give me my pension do you know what I mean like at the time I would have kissed their feet I couldn't believe my luck you imagine someone turning up to you saying it's 750 grand you can have your pension now fuck I'm an addict you know I'll I'll take that all day long when I look back now I think you knew I was ill you know what I mean they knew I was ill and someone earn money out of giving me my money and I don't like when people that are not well I just think it's sick and that disappointed me now it didn't at the time and it never had since but as I get older and older and it becomes I'm getting 53 now and before I know it you know there ain't gonna be a job that I can do I haven't got a pension and I just think people pray I don't like people who pray on people that are not well you know I've seen it too many times over my life so far your new documentary the one that was just a couple of weeks ago on BBC was it have a full manlet about your addiction as well how is it like talking about it as much because you talk about it with ease now you talk about it with how do you feel talking about it though I feel alright you know it happens so I'm comfortable with it do you know what I mean yeah it's not like you know when I go and do a speech people go oh my god your story you know you don't write anything down I've done it you know I ain't got to make anything call me in today and say right we're going to talk about politics I ain't got a clue I ain't got a clue you know sometimes you're not always clever to be clever but yeah I mean I just live in the day I like talking about it because you know with this addiction you become very selfish when you're in it when you're out of it you want to help other people and that's the name of the game the more people you have the weller you stay you know it's not like you get well and then forget everybody else I'm well now you know I want to I don't want people to go through what I went through I want people to to have a choice I didn't have a choice at the time I didn't know I didn't know you know I'm an ill person today I'm ill and I'm trying to get and I'm getting well out of time you know if I I didn't know at the time now if I had a nut allergy I wouldn't eat nuts would I but you know now I know and people who have nut allergies know when they and it takes to find out when they eat a nut but when they've done that they don't eat another nut and that's the same with addictions you know I know what will happen to me if I start doing what I did before but this will help a lot of people and I can repeat myself quite a lot in podcasts about addictions and stuff and but for new listeners or people maybe it's just sometimes that seed plants and they go do you know what if he can do it if Paul can do it I can do it and we'll not mention any names if there is but as anybody who's still active maybe in football I've got an addiction also you know what football haven't even what's name football haven't even even been in touch I thought you know I thought you know you might get the odd club that might go need you to come in you know this is the gambling's taken over you know sport insurance Tony's the treatment centre down there for sportsmen is 70-30 gambling now for the first time ever you know it's one round from drinking drinking was 70-30 now it's gambling you know no clubs but clubs think that's not a problem it's their money let them do what they want that won't affect their game that will affect their game at least 30% at least it's a tiring tiring draining addiction it's draining because you're constantly constantly thinking your brain is just ticking over all the time you imagine going on a pitched with a clear head you know what I mean I mean it would be amazing and that's shot me really you know that clubs haven't gone you know what come in and just do a talk for us I went over to Jersey to talk to the gambling commission this week which was interesting you know they want to they want to try and change the laws they want to try and change it you know and for the compulsive gambler for the addict not for the normal gambler and rightly so if you can gamble normally gamble cool I would I would if I could drink normally I'd drink normally you know I'm not one of these people who's on a crusade to change the world no chance it's just to give the addict that better chance that better chance you know normal people who can gamble fair play to you fair play yeah you just want to give humans a better life and I understand yeah you know addicts you know we're different we are different you know addicts you know we're ill we have an illness we're different you know not everybody's brain is wired like like ours so you know you don't punish everybody else for so many people but at the same time don't throw numbers at me that 30 million people can bet normally but I'm not worried about the 30 million I'm more worried about whether it be a hundred thousand or or one person that one person you know it's not just that person it's his wife his husband his girlfriend boyfriend partner kids their mum and dad you know their brothers and sisters you know it's not one person more women are gambling now as well it was more that man cool yeah women are gambling cool self fucking online relating like that's a difficult thing when you get to a certain you know women get to a certain age you know they've looked after the kids you know like and done one of the hardest jobs in the world in my opinion is looking after kids and being a parent it's difficult it's hard but then all of a sudden the kids go to school and it's like what do I do now and you know and then it's like well I go shopping or you know how much stuff can you buy you know you buy it you don't open it or you leave it in the cupboard or you leave it in the box your shoes and then all of a sudden I go and get gambling and all that and it you know or you know I have a glass of wine you know I wait till five well it'll be five somewhere you know and it's just little things you know yeah but it's unfortunately I've got three little kids and they keep me very occupied I'm not lying James if I was sitting at home on my own you know and I didn't have little kids and I was on my own 24 seven I'm not going to lie I would find it hard but you've got a lot of sports teams guys sports all the big they are sponsored by gambling as well which is hard because if you try to get away from it it's constantly in your face like I say I hear all those noises and you see all the games and even the hotel we're in you know I've seen this some more rugby players I'm thinking I wonder what handicapped do you know what I mean I'm still constantly betting I'll still constantly put bets on in my head so you can never make any plans which plans I'll pull me up soon you know my plans is is to get through the day I'm not going to lie I do keep it as simple as I can I try and keep it simple and then go from there if I had you got you've got to have plans as you say you can't just live day at a time otherwise everything will just pass you by is to save and get a house that's my main thing now that's my goal to give my kids the opportunity you know to bring them into the world and then leave nothing when that's okay if you haven't got anything but I have had something you know and that's where it's hard you know I understand people come in they haven't got anything that's and they do an amazing job do you know what I mean but when you've got it and you've you've lost it I mean it's hard it's hard but you know I still I just want I don't know you're around if you know me and that's scary but what a career you had like even though you feel like you've got a lot of great memories you've met some great people adored by millions like people do adores you people do so much respect for you Paul that you don't ever forget how far you've come in life don't ever forget what you've achieved that even though you want to get a house you'll get it because everything you've ever set your mind to you've been out and done against all the odds against all the bullshits probably people thought you would never have stopped gambling never stopped drinking and what can be done so it's important for people watching that people can make changes if you eventually set your mind to it and believe it yeah exactly that at a time keep it simple exactly do not be in for anybody watching Paul it's maybe struggling with addiction what advice would you have for them you're an ill person you need to get well you're not a bad person who's trying to get good all the time you're an ill person you have to accept that you're ill and you're never going to get better until you get help and I think I think that that in a nutshell for me we're ill people and we need to get well yeah and where can people buy your books Paul uh I think it's in I think you get it on Amazon uh it's in Asda and I think it's in Waterstones yeah it's called Hooked it's it will help yeah it will change your life so I'll leave the links in the description Paul but for giving me the time you're coming on and telling me thank you for having me I've finally enjoyed that what you're doing is amazing stay strong brother and I'll be keeping your eyes on you for the future cheers mate thank you