 But then we started the formal part of the test which is to have somebody else come into the room while you're out of there and by a random means by choosing a counter out of a bag which is what we used. We used poker chips numbered from 1 to 10 but then place it in the appropriate cup, turn the cups all down and then leave the room and we would come in and he would and so I wouldn't know where it was. I couldn't give any clues subconsciously or consciously and he got one right out of ten which is exactly what you would expect by chance alone and of course he was the most astonished of everybody because he'd never really tried it in a double blind test like that and then he said of course oh I see what it is this encyclopedia on the shelf here has gold stamping on the cover and that's what distracted the stick I said wait a minute but you did 20 of them and you got 20 out of 20 when you knew where the gold was and he said oh yes well that's because we were a little further away from the encyclopedia I said no that encyclopedia that is not gold it's gold color but it's not gold believe me and he said well there must be some gold behind it in the wall we haven't turned our wall down to see if there's any gold in there well you better do that yes I have a rush home and do that by the way well just amazing now then we moved to sort of another group of people who are out there sort of well I guess there's no sort of about it they're out there actually fleecing people and and you wrote a book about it called the faith healers yes and boy there's a lot of them out there there were a lot and there's a lot that have come along in recent years to replace those that have gone oh yes and I want to hear a little bit about well first of all WV Grant from a few years ago who was one of these healers if I have my notes right I think he was the one that referred to a Dr. Jesus or was that well most of them use the expression Dr. Jesus but he was very big on Dr. Jesus hallelujah but he was one of the people I mentioned my book the faith healers which is currently on sale and available at your bookstores the faith it is the book itself didn't make much of a stir because people who want to believe in this thing won't buy the book they don't want to see the evidence and people who don't believe it by the book and they say yes exactly what I expected there's nothing there the faith here's don't feel a thing that they don't heal anybody pardon me the faith here's don't heal anybody they have lots of faith but they don't heal anybody and I think I've never met one that is not an outright conscious crook because they use gimmicks to make it appear as if they've healed people such things as telling you to stand up and walk out of a wheelchair which they'd never been in before in their lives there was seated in the wheelchair that they didn't need to sit in and when they stand up the audience thinks wow that person is healed that person knows that he or she isn't healed but they don't give away the actor they do that part of the tape reverting is not used on the air you see they're they're crooks and they deserve to be locked up in my opinion WV Grant was very big on this sort of thing and he used all kinds of the standard gimmicks that have been used for a couple of generations now by the faith faith leaders to make people believe that they really can do what they say they can do and there was Peter Popoff and such you saw that I demonstrated him at the lecture the other night and I put Peter Popoff out of business he declared bankruptcy went out of business for a short time but now he's back on television again because people forget they want and they need to believe that it's true you see so they forget all the negative evidence and WV Grant actually did get locked up for income tax evasion perhaps because I brought the attention of the IRS to him I don't know but in any case he got locked up he's now out and I'm sure he'll be back at it anytime at all because it's the only talent he has so he wasn't locked up for conning people he was locked up for yeah it's like Al Capone they got him for the wrong thing you see but they got him now the Peter Popoff case was very interesting because this was a national story it broke on the the tonight show with Johnny Carson and millions of people saw that and which was a great thing it put put pop off out of business almost immediately tell us a little bit about sort of how that operation worked I know you went in and had to do a little bit of investigation to find out exactly what technique he was using yeah we it was pretty evident to us from the beginning we saw that he was using the usual interview techniques which is hours before they start the video taping on the actual services they call it I call it a show what they call it a service they have people wandering around the audience interviewing people what is your problem and he what is your address you live where and this kind of thing this is all being picked up backstage and stored and then being fed back to him when he gets out on the floor through a concealed hearing aid you see so that was the gimmick that he was using it's supposed to be the voice of God it was the voice of his wife backstage residing this whole thing to as you saw from the videotape that I used for the Carson show and by the way Carson remembers that very well I spoke to on the phone several months ago and the first thing he brought up and she says I'll never forget the pop-up episode I said you remember that no you said oh do I remember that I'm still talking about it it's the most amazing piece of footage when you when you see the original well just a clip of it that aired and then you see that same clip overlaid yeah with the soundtrack in the background of what he was hearing yes through his ear it is astonishing isn't that because at first you could say wow that must be a miracle he couldn't know these things yeah God must be speaking to him but God sounded like his wife to me and moving and unfortunately he's back on television is there anything that can be done to get these people off the air yeah get smart and don't tune in and don't buy the products and whatnot don't send money to yes there is something it could be done but you can't get the government to do it because as the Attorney General of California at the time many years ago told me I'll never get reelected if I come out against minister anybody reverend anybody I don't care whether he's a real reverend or not and I asked him I said is it your job to get reelected or to do what you were elected to do in the first place and that that made me pay the lunch field because he got up and left in the Huff so but no it's very difficult Tony to get the government to do something about it they'd rather just ignore that and say okay sure it's not disturb that whole situation they'll get them on income tax but they won't get them for being crooks and taking money dishonestly yeah I have to admit this subject really fascinates me because I was brought up in the fundamentalist atmosphere as a youngster and and to see this perpetuated and new generations falling for the same things that have been happening for years it's just too bad well don't don't assume that all religious people are crooked not by any means of course but there are people in the in the trade the most prominently known ones and such who are and that should be stopped by by legal processes and we should have that protection from our government and we haven't got it now one of the current ones on television is a fellow by the name of Benny Hinn oh yes and I want to talk a little bit about his technique I've done a little bit of reading research I know there's some folks out there who believes that he uses a type of hypnotism or mesmerism to get these people to fall over and I want to talk a little bit about that and your opinion on that well it's known as slaying in the spirit it's very common in charismatic movements and such and people who go to these services know what's expected of them when he gestures at them they're supposed to fall over and you'll sometimes see them look behind and make sure there's someone there to catch them sometimes they're not too sure but Benny Hinn's people are rehearsed on the staircase on the way up onto the stage where the cameras don't show them when the rest of the audience can't see them that's way below that level and they're told what to do and when to do it and how to do it and when by the time they get up on stage all he has to do is turn to them ago like this and they fall over all mass that there was a time when the evangelist used to do it to one person alone be healed hallelujah and whatever they'd fall over but Hinn just goes out there and goes whoops like this and four or five of them fall over at one time and the people standing behind them if you are up close enough to hear as we were on many occasions they'll say no just now kind of thing so they know that they're supposed to fall over and they know they'll be caught and laid out on the stage and slaying in the spirit it's called it's strictly a gimmick it's choreography and it's very effective for the people at the front who don't know what the gimmick is yeah and the people watching at home on television oh yes of course that's the main thing of course yeah because those tapes sometimes they'll go for two and a half hours just to get 30 minutes of tape that they can use now I've heard you talk a little bit about sort of a an expose or I guess you were on a documentary