 Well we're still on with the breakfast and plus TV Africa if you just joined thank you so much and if you have joined prior to this time we say thank you as well. Nika Goulet will be joining us for the next conversation as a public affairs analyst as we look at the case of police brutality. Nika, many thanks for joining us and compliment of the season. Thank you very much Merci, Merry Christmas to you and Merry Christmas to our viewers. All right then well Nika there seems to be no end in sight to Nigerian police brutality. As a policeman attached to Ajah police station Lagos State shot dead a female lawyer Balanley Rahim that was on Sunday and that was on Christmas day. The Nigerian Bar Association has however identified the police officer who killed the lawyer. The unnamed policeman attached to the Ajah police station and his team were said to have tried to stop Rahim and her family members as they drove back home from you know Christmas day church service. The lawyer was shot when the car she was on tried to make a u-turn around a jar bridge. I know you know I mean if you live in Lagos and you probably might become the Sunday special review move around that area. While the incident has sparked widespread criticism the Lagos State Police Command has said that an assistant superintendent of police and two others of officers were currently in custody over the incident. However in a statement the NBA's national publicity secretary said the officer had been identified as Durham B. Vandy an assistant superintendent of police. Well joining us this morning to discuss this unfortunate incident and ending spate of police brutality like I rightly mentioned is Nika Gule. Thank you for making our time to be with us this morning on the show. Thank you so much Merci and Merry Christmas to you and to our viewers. All right then what do you make of the killing or shooting of an unarmed citizen by a police officer who should protect her? It is very sad and I will start by sending my condolences to the family of the lawyer his immediate family friends and colleagues and to us all Nigerians on this senseless killing once again like you rightly said by people who have been paid to protect us. They are paid to protect us but it appears that when they wake up in the morning they load their guns and come out to hunt Nigerians like you hunt game and this is very sad and not only because it is sad but it is about who is next as this kind of incident don't seem to have an end there's no ending inside for it and the reason why there is no ending inside for it is because the government of Nigeria the one that recruits trains, arms and deploys policemen ostensibly to protect us but they end up hunting us down like game and killing us is doing absolutely nothing to stop these killings as we have heard the inspector general of police has issued a statement says he has condemned the killings once he condemning this thing is happening every day the lawyer's case is taking prominence probably because she's a lawyer but probably because it has happened in a metropolis like Lagos and we assure you that as a yesterday or sorry on Christmas day when this thing happened police would have killed some other innocent Nigerians elsewhere but because it is probably in a remote place or the people are nowhere known and it goes unreported so the inspector general simply condemning this is they use your rhetoric it's not enough we want to see policemen like this renegade policeman who just took an innocent life in Lagos to be locked up for life they should be in jail for the rest of their lives because if they deprive a Nigerian of their life then they shouldn't have a life of their own until we begin to see decisive action like this by the government who actually own this police force we're not going to see an end to this and that is to me the scary part because it is just a matter of who is next well another thing is I know that we have talked about you know ending police brutality and this has become part of a lexicon especially after you know the movement that we had 2022 there was some sort of remembrance I mean we're looking at two years my question is why do we still have you know this sort of treatment you want to call it police brutality that leads to the debt of people and you know policeman handling maltreatment still ongoing even after you know this major movement in Nigeria I thank you for that question I think the reason why despite the end starts and the aftermath of it and all the promises by the government to reform the police and the SARS itself as an outfit was craft and all that have no either the desired results is because the government is not taking policing seriously it is not just about taking policemen into the police college or police training institutions and then bringing them out into society arming them and then unleashing them on the public there's a lot that needs to be to be done for instance I'll give you an example a lot of these policemen are stressed I believe that a lot of police in Nigeria are suffering from PTSD that is post-traumatic stress disorder why because they have seen their colleagues murdered they have seen the families of their colleagues kicked out of the barracks they themselves are not being paid well when you look at the typical Nigerian policeman from the uniform he's wearing from top to bottom and the the rate of which is begging and all of that you look at their their barracks you know you look at all of that around the policeman you can see a man who is not set to in his mind and so the government needs to put in place the structures that we ensure that a typical Nigerian policeman is well paid well compensated lives in a decent environment and when incidents around him occur like in this case the the officer that shot this innocent lawyer he did that shooting in the presence of his other colleagues who are also stressed from the incident just as the family of the lawyer are also stressed from the incident in and a deep place all these people should have come under counseling counseling that we try to resolve their psychological effects or what they have witnessed but we don't have this in the Nigerian police force so you have people who are on the road who lack emotional intelligence who are angry who see themselves as demigods who look at Nigerians as nuisance and in an instant they are pulling the trigger because you ask yourself this lawyer was in a private car this lawyer was obviously not armed so why would the police pull a trigger on her the policeman was not in immediate danger the lawyer did not constitute any danger to the public and for this man to pull a trigger on an innocent Nigerian taking their life shows you that this man is mentally and psychologically disordered and the Nigerian government is not doing anything about that unlike you see a message there are cases of police killings elsewhere in the world I mean we we we read about the I mean the the famous case of the policeman killing the black man in the US there are cases like that even in the UK where live the police sometimes do kill innocent people I mean in back in was in October they kill the black man sitting in his car in a street in London but the difference between those killings and in Nigeria is that you can see immediately immediately that the police involved are arrested they are they are investigated they are put to trial and they spend time in jail that is not happening in Nigeria and if it's not happening then regardless of what could have happened at NSAS and all the promises that we received these killings will not we will not stop they will continue and it is sad to think that it's just about who is next so let's get to you know the conversation that everyone has seemed to be on the issue of reform I mean we have talked about reforms of reforming the police reforms what have you that seemed to be on top of the conversation I mean the reason for that process also was that the police architecture needs to be overhauled and it needs to be a reform but really what sort of reform are we talking about do you think that reforming you know the system would bring an end you know to all of this brutality that the people get to face we're talking about the citizen now the ill treatment because we see that in the course of you know the police officers discharging their duties so do you think that reforming the sector is a solution the Nigeria police service is long overdue for reform long overdue Nigeria is perhaps one of the few countries that is still running a national police as we do we do it I tell people that if we have a target to join the top 20 industrialized nations in the world we have no choice than to be doing the things that those nations are doing for them to be great and remain great and there is no top 20 industrialized nation in the world that runs in national police as Nigeria is doing policing is pretty much local use the subnational governments that is the local government the states to run their police forces in fact if you go to places like the US even universities have their police you will see University of Chicago police you know so having these humongous national police with a single inspector general or police it's a risk to the country by itself it's a risk why because if that inspector general is not effective it then means that the entire Nigeria will come under an effective police leadership but imagine if we had 36 state police forces and the FCT I mean if 10 commissioners of police in the states or for the states are not effective you have 26 or 27 that are effective so as Nigeria we will have effective policing in some area but now we put all our eggs in one basket there's no industrialized nation that is running this system so this system is a cake this system is colonial this system is not just paying us any dividends at all that is the first one the second one even with the structure that we have now the government is not funding the police adequately the entire budget of the Nigerian police force I mean it could be less than 10 billion Naira whereas the new york police department alone is spending over 12 billion dollars a year and people can say oh they are in America and we are in Nigeria was spending Naira but that's not the case the new york police department is buying arms from the same market that the Nigerian police is buying the new york police department is buying motor vehicles from the same market uniforms and other equipment that they need for policing the new york police department at the Nigerian police department are buying those things from the same market so imagine the new york police department arriving at market with one billion dollars in their pocket and the Nigerian police is arriving with 10 million dollars you can clearly see that the Nigerian police for 200 million people with 10 million dollars in the market cannot even get what the new york police department are getting for one single unit and they are only policing less than 10 million people so there are so many things that need to be reformed about the police we can talk about them all day the bottom line is that the current system that we are working is not actually effective it's not delivering for us no no so what what part of the reforms should we be looking at I mean I would like to cite an example should we look at the entry level those who are getting into the system what exactly should we be looking at because if we say reforms it probably might just be vague I remember vividly that there were also demands from the NSAS protests certain demands that were being placed because if we don't have this conversation I'm not sure we're headed anywhere we need to be very specific with what we I mean what the desire is or how to tackle all of these problems we have to start something like I was trying to to conclude in my last remarks the 10th national assembly must come and take decisive action on this we need the laws that will enable some national governments have their policing well I think we seem to have been disconnected with Nika Gule hopefully we're able to have that connection but we are talking about the issue of police brutality especially with the death of Bolan Le Rahim who was killed on Christmas day very unfortunate yesterday I happened to listen to a conversation on the radio and I had some people saying oh you know for for instance she's a lawyer but I mean let's even leave the tags whether or not she's a lawyer whatever it is the most important thing is that it's a human being and her life was actually taken short now Nika Gule is back with us on this conversation just as I wait for you to I mean just go ahead with your thoughts I mean before we were disconnected by the network you had a thought line just go ahead with it yes so thank you so much MSC sorry my connection was interrupted like I was saying we have paid leave service to this police reform for too long the 10th national assembly that will be inaugurated in June 2023 must take this police reforms as the first item on the agenda we need a new police act that is going to break down these humongous colossus called the Nigerian police force at the national level and send policing down to even local government level that should be the first step and we must take that step otherwise we're not going to we're not going to see an end to this to these killings you know like I tell people people are flying on holiday to Johannesburg why they are not flying on holiday to Nigeria even though you stand in a greater chance of having a knife in your back in Johannesburg why because we have a police that is not responding to incidents and they themselves become the the the the assortments on Nigerians on citizens and the world is looking at that and they say Nigeria is a dangerous place I don't want to go there so this thing affects all of us like you said a life has been lost and the painful and scary aspect is that it's about who is next so action must be taken to stop this no but as we move forward because it feels like there's no provision against mother mother is mother right whether or not it's a police officer who commits this how come we haven't really had those who have been committing mother facing the law that's a criminal act that's against that I mean the law is very explicit on mother so why haven't we had the implementation of that why is it that those who are involved in you know killings and taking the lives of people not being made to face the law police officers this is not the first instance especially in 2022 and that is that is the bottom line what you have said now is the bottom line I tell people that there is a direct correlation between law enforcement and development all the places that Nigeria's are Japan to the UK Canada US Australia all those places when you go there you will see the law enforcement regime is stringent the more stringent the law enforcement regime the better a place that's just a simple truth so until we begin to visit consequence management of people who are breaking the law in Nigeria we are never going to get it we're never going to get it it was in the plan of creation that God made humanity to be led and humanity to be led by laws that is just what it is any way you go and you see sanity you see things working well you see cities behaving orderly check the law enforcement in that place is very strong and this is why in Nigeria we must begin to visit consequence management of perpetrators or criminal activities like this police officer who just shot dead this lawyer and it doesn't matter your position in in in society in fact in other places the higher place you are the better for the law to come after you you know and in Nigeria we're not doing that there are many people who are both the law in Nigeria and the law is only being applied to those who cannot pay themselves out from the stronghold of the law and the next president of Nigeria should actually have one single objective this objective should be law enforcement when the next president begins to enforce the law every other thing will begin to work smoothly in Nigeria if we see ministers working well permanent secretary to directors civil servants and the roads will be sanitized nobody will chop contra money just because that president is enforcing the law so that is the missing link that has pinned Nigeria down in underdevelopment so well I just hope that we're able to fix that missing link just like you have mentioned the issue of enforcing the law because if we even continue to say let's have the reforms or what's the essence I mean not to say that that's not important but you begin to ask yourself what becomes of us when we're not big on implementing the law because if we even at any point have the respect for the law then all of these police officers who have been engaged in you know the mother of citizens I'd like not to use the word innocent because you have to be proven by court of competence jurisdiction before anything can happen and so taking the lives of people on armed citizens and what have you what has the law not taken its cost so it's another part of the conversation that we should be looking at in terms of the issue of police brutality and the reforms that we're calling for for the police we have to get to a point where we are able to implement and enforce this law that's the only way just like you have mentioned thank you so much Nika Gule for being part of the show this morning we appreciate your thoughts thank you so much messian have a nice day you too and we just take a break when we return we'll be looking at a second conversation please stay with us