 I invite members who wish to speak in the debate, please press their request to speak buttons now, and I call on Claire Baker to speak to and move the motion up to 12 minutes, Ms Baker. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I am delighted to open this afternoon's debate from the Economy and Fair Work Committee. I think that it is our first debate that we've had in the chamber in this new session, focusing on our inquiry into retail and town centres. We all know that Scotland's towns matter to our constituents, but recent decades have witnessed the decline of many of Scotland's town centres. The collapse of many retail chains has left a hole in many high streets. The committees share the frustration of communities that the damage to high streets is done quickly, but any solutions and rescues are slow to achieve. We are still seeing the closure of retail stores. Most recently, the Scottish closing chain M&Co announced that it was closing all its stores, including 46s in Scotland. Other examples—New Look and Martins and Spencer's—have recently announced rationalisation of their stores, and they are not alone in that approach. Many reasons are well documented. Shopping habits have changed, the cost of doing business has increased, the businesses have perhaps not kept pace with changing needs. However, it still leaves the problem of empty units on a high street that is no longer keeping pace with the faster changes in our economy and society, and it still raises the question of what degree social and economic policy has driven some of those changes to the detriment of town centres. The retail exodus from our town centres has been caused in part by the ease and lower business costs for out-of-time shopping parks, but particularly in recent years are changing shopping habits. Changes accelerated during the pandemic as online shopping increased. However, at the same time, the pandemic did create a renewed discovery and appreciation of local places, our towns and their potential, and people were looking to shop locally again and to build their communities back. The bleak picture that we see does also present opportunities. The committee sought to focus on the future of our towns and the actions needed to ensure that the vision of connected, relevant and vibrant towns is achieved—a vision that I am sure we all share. Scotland's towns are diverse with their own stories. We heard clearly that, while central policy is important, the ambition for each town has to be responsive to local priorities. To facilitate that, there has to not just be capital funding but resource funding that supports community projects over the longer term to achieve their visions. Throughout the committee inquiry, we heard about the wide range of issues related to towns and what makes them attractive places to live and visit, including transport, amenities, the role and contribution that culture makes, planning and the availability of appropriate and affordable housing to enable town centre living. Two years ago, the report of the Town Centre Action Plan group, led by Professor Lee Sparts, was published. It made three headline recommendations, include towns and town centres and national planning framework 4 and create and implement town plans, review the current tax, funding and development systems, expand and align funding for demonstration projects in towns and city centres—sorry, in town centres—with multi-year revenue and capital funding. In April last year, the Scottish Government in Closla responded jointly publishing a revised town centre action plan for Scotland. Shortly after, the Scottish Government published its strategy for the retail sector and a retail industry leadership group was established with responsibility for finalising a delivery plan. At the end of last year, the Scottish Government finalised its national planning framework 4. The committee welcomes all of those strategies and plans but wants to ensure that the ambition in those documents is realised and momentum is maintained through tangible actions and that there is a clear coherence between the different strategies. More than ever, the town centre action plan must be more effective than the 2013 plan and addressing some of the significant challenges. For example, since 2014 there has been a town centre first principle intended to counter the capital flight from many town centres to out-of-town developments on greenfield sites, an exodus the committee was told that has led to increased societal disparities. While not a statutory planning duty or requirement, the aim was to ensure that reasons for locating new developments other than town centres were transparent and backed by evidence. NPF 4 stopped short of putting the town centre principle on a statutory footing. However, a report set out the strong evidence from expert witnesses, including Professor Sparks, that the principle, as embedded, has not achieved its aims. Out-of-town developments continue to be preferred due to the greater availability of cheaper land and lower barriers compared with adapting existing town centre stock. In the absence of having made much difference since its adoption in 2014, the committee concluded that the principle had to be strengthened, otherwise the vision for Scotland's towns may not be realised. Committee members had differing views on whether a moratorium on out-of-town developments was the solution, and I recognised the minister's response to the committee's set-out challenges making this approach consistent with the planning system. We all agree that the national planning framework must be sufficiently robust to ensure that new proposed developments demonstrate that town centre sites have been pursued and thoroughly evaluated, and that developments will have no adverse impact on town centres and will not compete with town centre provision. We will be keeping a close eye on the effectiveness of the approach. I thank all those who contributed to the inquiry. It is so important for us to hear the voices of businesses, including SMEs and social enterprises. We did not consider town centres and retail solely through an economic lens, contributions from culture counts, from Age Scotland and Sight Scotland, among others, when important in considering the purpose and future resilience of town centres. I am very grateful to the member for giving way on that point and also to congratulate the committee on its work. The member is talking about the fact that our town centres rely both on cultural, economic housing and a number of significant factors that give each town its own identity and character. Is the committee in agreement that the balance of success for our high streets and our towns lies in all of those things coming together, rather than just one specific area that will not answer the overarching problem? Martin Fettful raised important points. The committee recognised that it was a collection of efforts that make for successful town centres. They have to be catered to the individual identity of each town centre. There is not a one size if that is all. We consider the impact of online shopping, often seen as part of the problem, but we heard that in some cases it can be part of the solution. The independent retail sector demonstrated agility during the pandemic and pivoted to online, developing into omni-channel businesses, where the online sales support their high street presence. There is a strong demand among Scotland's smaller retailers for more and better support to build their online presence. The committee wants to see a broader range of opportunities made available to upskill, strengthen and future-proof our retail workforce. We know that the Scottish Government has committed funds to help businesses to improve their digital skills, capacity and capability, and that it is committed to support improved broadband capability and mobile connectivity in towns and town centres to improve local digital platforms. That all needs to happen at pace. The committee has representation from rural retailers and the concerns that they have around broadband. We will go on to the visits. We did go to Fraserburn and Verrury and that was an issue that was raised there. Retail is not served by Scottish Enterprise, although we heard about the support for town centres given by regional enterprise agencies and raised the question of what support other regions can access. Arguably they are all facing the same place-based difficulties, but I digress. The point here is about support for the workforce to help to adjust to what is expected to be continuing and evolving long-term changes to business models and shopping habits. It is important that there has to be a gendered approach to this transition within the workforce. The committee also called for the development of a strategically driven action plan to support the take-up of training and capacity building to support Scotland's e-commerce activity, and in particular development of on-the-channel retail. At committee, we heard that Scotland is falling behind hubs such as Manchester, and we are falling behind in the skills needed to support this industry. The Scottish Government response states that around 38 million of the 100 million commitment has been spent, but it was not clear to us how it has been spent and by whom, and it would be helpful to have further detail from the minister on this. The whole issue of skills, the development of Scotland's workforce and future proofing is becoming something of a thread running through all the different strands of the economy and fair work committee. We have a serious skills shortage in Scotland. It is hampering our economic recovery and progress and leaving us at a disadvantage compared to competitors. I acknowledge the on-going independent review of Scotland's skills delivery, but the committee is looking for very specific action around e-commerce skills to be taken now. I recognise that the Government can point to a working group, a strategy or a delivering plan to address many of those points, but we have had no shortage of those over recent years, and yet progress has been slow. We need to see a step change and a more radical approach taken if we are to revitalise town centres. The vibrant town centres that we all want to see again rely much more on retail. During our inquiry, we were welcomed on four visits, first to Dumfries, where members were able to visit sea first hand, and what has been achieved there through the mid-Deeple quarter development. Mid-Deeple quarter is a community benefit society in Dumfries that is developing empty high street properties to provide space for local businesses, bringing homes to the high street and giving the community a stake in their future. In Hamilton, we met members of the successful bid in Hamilton, our town, and heard about the positive steps that bring people back to town centres, including ideas to bridge the gap between their daytime and night-time economy. Our visit to Fraserborough and Inverury could contrast whether or not the bid made a difference to developing a well-established, widely-shared vision for the future and what effectively supported communities on their journey. In Bountyland, members met local business owners and discussed successful diversification into online presence, prompted by the pandemic. Although one did access the Digibus fund, the other was not aware that it had been available. However, at every visit and throughout our evidence-taking for the inquiry, the issue of business rates came up. The committee's report recognised the reforms under way to business rates that are not yet fully implemented, but it was clear from the business community's evidence and the Scottish Government's own town centre action plan review group that our non-domestic rates system is perceived as inequitable and unfair. The current NDR system acts as a disincentive when trying to attract businesses of any type back to the town centres. For businesses already allocated in town centres, the current NDR system acts as a disincentive to invest in already-occupied property, as any investment leads to an increase in NDR. The committee constantly heard that the current system works against investment and growth in town centre retail, and that the NDR system should be rebalanced to support town centre development. I recognise that that is not popular with all stakeholders, but if we value town centres and want to support a varied retail sector at the heart of them, we need to ensure that it is an attractive place to trade. There is a need to address the constant balance between out-of-town development and town centre regeneration and to lower the barriers for town centre development if the vision for regeneration of Scotland's towns, particularly the aspiration to bring back good-quality town centre living, is to be realised. I know that other members will probably raise the issue of VAT, but I would like to hear more from the minister on whether or not there is a recognition that there has to be a rebalancing and how he is proposing to achieve that. There is much more that will be covered in this debate by absentee owners and the need for transparency of beneficial ownership, the extent and limitations of our planning powers, the possible introduction of an online sales tax. However, the overriding request of the committee is that we value our town centres for what they mean to communities and deliver policy that supports their ambitions. On behalf of the Economy and Fair Work Committee, I move the motion in my name. Thank you. I now call on Tom Arthur up to 11 minutes, minister. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I begin for thanking the committee for the production of this very helpful and considered report. I join members of the committee in thanking those who gave evidence to the committee and helped to facilitate visits. The committee's report highlights many examples of progress both in our town centres and our approach to retail policy and in how those interact and complements our work to deliver both the town centre action plan and the retail strategy. I agree with the committee that a strategic approach to towns and retail focused on sustained long-term actions is required to maximise the contribution that they can and must play to achieving the vision set out in our new national strategy for economic transformation. Transforming our towns and the retail economy is an exciting opportunity to work collaboratively towards the shared purpose of a sustainable wellbeing economy, which supports and connects people and places. On town centres, we work collaboratively with communities, local government, third and private sector to deliver our shared vision and to have strong partnerships with local government. Those include the newly established town centre action plan forum that I co-chair with COSLA. A cross-sectoral approach helps to co-ordinate work in my portfolio, across government and beyond, and I am encouraged to see our place-based and community investment programmes making a difference. Disappointingly, the work is now being made more challenging by the UK Government's approach to levelling up, which is not aligned with our policy framework. Notwithstanding that, we can and must celebrate the real and sustained progress that we have achieved and continue to double down on that. Through new policy frameworks, including NPF4, the new national strategy for economic transformation, climate action towns and community wealth building. Getting the right change, our retail strategy for Scotland, sets out our vision for a strong prosperous, vibrant and future-proofed retail sector. It makes it clear that retail matters as a contributor to economic prosperity in Scotland, part of our everyday experience and a foundation stone of our economy. Retail is the largest private sector employer in Scotland, currently employing over 260,000 people in Scotland, an increase of 8.3 per cent on the previous year. Shops and retailers support local communities, attract people into our towns and cities, utilise local supply chains, offer fulfilling employment and support other sectors. Delivery of the retail strategy is now well under way and the newly established retail industry leadership group, which I co-chair with Andrew Murphy from John Lewis, is in place to ensure that we take the right strategic approach. I make a brief reference to the need to take a gendered approach to the issue. The committee heard evidence, particularly from Closed The Gap, that the jobs within retail that we reduce are the ones that are traditionally female jobs and the jobs that will increase are traditionally male jobs. Will the leadership group be looking at the issue and recognising where we need to focus our skilled development work? I am happy to confirm to Clare Baker that that is the case, both in what we do with regard to looking at our skills and within our fair work agreement that we are seeking to develop through the retail industry leadership group. That is very important and is consistent with our broader economic objectives. Our policy landscape provides key enablers of work on town centres and retail. I will touch on a few just as now. NPF4, formally adopted earlier this month, is a fresh start for planning and places our journey to net zero and neighbourhood renewal at its core. For town centres and retail, that means prioritising regeneration of town centres and re-use of vacant and derelict land, while discouraging some types of development, including out-of-town retail. Our reform of permitted development rights gives a clear signal to be welcoming to investors and to the people who will live, support and enjoy our towns. It empowers planners to be bold and courageous in pursuing opportunities for thriving communities. I am very grateful to the minister for giving me. I was wondering if he could elaborate on the decision from the Scottish Government not to put the town centre first principle in NPF4. I was also wondering if he might speak to the point about change of use. Sometimes it is very easy to change commercial premises into residential and that can sometimes detract from the critical mass in high streets. I am grateful to Mr Johnson for his intervention. As we set out in NPF4, we have sought to get a policy that is consistent with how the planning system operates, but what I would always urge in reading any planning document, including NPF4, is to read the document in the round-air 33 separate policies. It is, of course, for individual decision makers in planning matters, ultimately to determine whether or not an application for a development accords with a development plan and whether or not material considerations are a factor. With regard to the change of use and our consultation, we explored the issue of using PD rights to allow for conversions to residential. However, that was something that we were cautious about pursuing and, indeed, will not be taking forward. Fundamentally, in my view and view of the Government, is that, in looking at how we plan for residential property, it is important that that still goes through the planning system to provide safety and assurance. Indeed, there have been examples of other jurisdictions exploring PD rights for, for example, commercial to residential, and they have had outcomes that are not consistent with the aspirations that we would wish to see. I also want to touch, Presiding Officer, on our community wealth building because, through community wealth building legislation, our aim is to create a fairer and more prosperous society, enabling more people to benefit directly from the wealth generated by local communities and transform what our economy is for and how it operates. Community wealth building will enable communities to take more control over local economies and develop those using their assets in line with our needs and interests. It is important to acknowledge, Presiding Officer, that this is a difficult time for many retail businesses. The cost crisis and record high inflation have brought a real pressure on top of the Covid crisis. This squeeze has also been felt in households, so it is understandable why some shops are struggling. Larger retailers are more able to respond and some discount stores are reporting record sales, as customers search out savings and supermarkets are price matching their goods. Reducing our matching prices is not always an option. I read with concern of companies of established firms such as Paper Chase and M&Co, highlighted by Clare Baker, staples of the high street in Scotland that are closing. As someone with an M&Co in my constituency, I am aware of the impact that this will have. Although it is neither the role of or within the gift of government to shore up these businesses, no matter how painful that might feel to those affected, we have a role in helping those affected and in helping the retail sector to evolve to meet changing consumer demand. Our aspirations for Scotland are set on our economic perspectives with a fiscal policy that supports improved economic competitiveness and resilience, underpinned by the principles of fiscal sustainability, will enable the creation of an economy that works better for everyone who does business in Scotland, including retailers the length and breadth of the country. Taxation has been touched on and of course affects town centres and retail as it affects us all. I am pleased that the committee recognised the reforms under way on business rates but acknowledged their continued wider concerns. I would welcome the committee's and the Parliament's support to address the wider issues, for example on VAT and the wider issue of potential devolution of VAT. The retail landscape is ever-changing and competition. I am afraid that I have given to it already and I need to make some progress. I will try to pick up any points in my closing remark. The retail landscape is ever-changing and competition from online retail has an impact. Although online retail sales have fallen every month since April 2021 from a higher 35 per cent in 2020, the remains 17 per cent higher than in 2019. That is 17 per cent more spending online but otherwise would have been spent in shops. A retail business base is made up of 96 per cent micro or small businesses. We small, often independent shops play a vital role in shaping the character and attractiveness of high streets and offer a different customer experience to that of larger retailers but they also have fewer resources available and need support to build an online presence. The Government's new national strategy for economic transformation recognises that digital will increasingly impact on the way we live our lives. Digital investment and skills are also vital for a diverse array of town centre uses, as noted in our town centre action plan. We are looking at the best way forward for digital support, building on earlier programmes and also working with the business support partnership to collaborate to deliver a single joined up national service for business support. As has been touched on, an independent review of the skills delivery landscape is under way and will recommend an approach to drive forward our ambitions for a skilled workforce as set out in the national strategy for economic transformation. The retail industry leadership group will consider the recommendations of the review and the opportunities that are forced to the retail sector and I would be happy to provide an update to the committee on this in due course. I would like to close with some examples of successes on the ground that support both town centres and retail. I will just focus on a couple of examples, Presiding Officer. I was hugely impressed by the strategic approach to investment in Galashill with the great tapestry visitor centre, forming a focal point and also the Minstiful Quarter project in Dumfries, where the Scottish Government's regeneration capital grant fund is helping to deliver wider plans to repurpose the town centre as a fully refurbished contemporary living, working, socialising, learning and enterprising quarter. Both of those projects align strongly with my ambitions to support community wealth building and create places where the community can shape its own future. Interventions and investments to support local businesses and decisions have been taken for the benefit of all. Supporting our towns and the retail sector across Scotland is a key priority for the Scottish Government. I welcome the input of the committee and I look forward to hearing the views of members from across Parliament this afternoon. I can just advise members that we do have a little time in hand should interventions be taken. I now call on Jamie Halcro Johnston. As a member of the Economy and Fair Work Committee and as my party's spokesman on business, I'm delighted to speak in this debate on what is an increasingly important subject. I add my thanks to that of Clare Baker to all those who gave evidence to the committee, for those who advised and support our considerations, those who welcomed us into their communities and of course to our committee clerks for all their efforts in organising panels, visits and producing our final report. Scotland's high streets are changing in the face of growing challenges. For decades it was the out-of-center shopping centres that were the main competition but in recent years it's the explosion of online shopping, which can often offer next day or even same-day deliveries and often more cheaply than our high streets. Our town centres have always evolved with familiar names giving way to new favourites but recent years have seen the retreat of some traditional stalwarts such as banks and post offices. While previously there are always others to replace them, that's often not the case now with an increasing number of premises left empty. To let signs and shuttered buildings are becoming an ever more conspicuous on our high streets as properties remain empty, many of which are simply too big and not easy to repurpose. Even great shopping streets such as Socky Hall Street in Glasgow are unsafe with the highest city centre vacancy rate in Scotland at 36 per cent, while above the UK average of 14 per cent. But as the report recognises the decline in our high streets is not new, it's been happening for decades. But it has gained momentum since the pandemic when businesses were forced to close completely and online shopping became the only option for many families. Public behaviour has changed and how we all shop has changed. But now as our high streets are still in recovery mode we've been hit by the cost of living crisis, which has seen business costs rise while customers have been left with less money in their pockets. Support for our high streets both from consumers and from government has never been more important, but that means a new vision for our high streets, one that recognises changing habits and that the high streets of tomorrow will be very different to those of today. During our inquiry we heard from a variety of sources on the issues facing our town centres and while I won't have time to cover them all in depth and detail today, I know some of my colleagues will. We heard of the impact of long vacant properties buildings which could become increasingly derelict and increasingly dangerous but which can be difficult to establish ownership of and even when ownership can be established financial pressures on local authorities often meant that they were reluctant to use the powers they had particularly if that risked shifting the burden of remedial action on to themselves. A common theme through evidence sessions was how we provide more good quality mixed tenure accommodation in town centres. In high streets across the country there were unused properties which could be repurposed and in our 2012 manifesto the Scottish Conservatives said that we would encourage the development of more brownfield sites to bring life to cities and towns and we would support communities first right to buy when local businesses face closing their doors and relax planning laws to allow for the redevelopment of long-term unoccupied business properties into good quality housing but it's not just about physical footfall the committee took evidence during a previous inquiry on the slow uptake by Scottish businesses of an online presence and this latest report highlights the lack of support available to help businesses diversify online. It also found that there is strong demand among smaller retailers for more and better support to build an online presence and the committee wanted to know how the Scottish government will address a situation which sees Scottish businesses much less likely to trade online compared to the rest of the UK but a reliable online presence requires fast reliable broadband something too many communities across Scotland and particularly in my highlands and islands region still lack and we also heard that for smaller communities including some in my own region getting dedicated support to drive forward improvement areas or other local coordination was difficult too often it relied on local volunteers who were business owners themselves the town centre action plan review group identified this suggesting that a lack of revenue time and expertise can restrict the potential of community or volunteer led projects and that and I quote those that succeed are often often do so despite the situation and system rather than because of it Presiding Officer I don't my colleague Douglas Lumson will talk in more detail on business rates and other tax issues but this isn't a clear area where the Scottish government could and should be doing more because the business community's evidence and from the Scottish government's own town centre action plan review group was as the clear clear baker highlighted that the non-domestic rate system is perceived as inequitable and unfair the report highlighted the disadvantages in which Scottish businesses were at business rate policy places the retail sector as well as how the current non-domestic rate system acts as a disincentive in both attractive attracting businesses back into the town centres as well as encouraging those already in town centres to invest in their property as it will could lead to an increase in their NDR and the Scottish government has further disadvantaged Scottish businesses by refusing to grant the same 75% business rates relief in Scotland that is available to businesses in England this despite Barnett consequentials from the UK government which was funded this it is a conscious decision taken by Scottish ministers which has left Scottish businesses paying more than they would in England but rather than working to reduce logistical and cost burdens on our high street businesses the Scottish government is actually increasing them short term let's licensing the tourism tax the workplace parking levy and of course the latest and potentially most damaging plan the almost universally derided deposit return scheme despite concerns from the retail sector in fact from virtually every sector that this government is pushing ahead but even the S&P leadership hopefuls have now raised issues with the scheme either calling for a suspension of a scheme to be dropped from the use of once a year's grace period for small firms Kate Forbes the minister's boss has said the scheme will cause economic carnage if it goes ahead as planned and Ash Regan and somebody I'm not normally prone to agreeing with in here has said that businesses in Scotland I quote this a businesses in Scotland already struggling right now and this is absolutely not the right time to be piling more things on to them something that could cause some of them to go out of business and she's right and she's also right when she said business reaction to the scheme should have been ringing alarm bells in government before now so why wasn't it it's an utter shambles Presiding Officer there are many other very important areas I could have covered today how the cultural sector can play an increasingly increasing role in supporting our high streets how good access to our sound sound centres is vital and that both better public transport but also support for those with mobility issues is key but our report was clear our town centres have their own unique identities there is no one blueprint that would work in every high street across Scotland it is as the report says about empowering communities by supporting and encouraging local decision making allowing local people and local businesses those who know their areas best have the passion for their communities to drive forward successful projects but what is clear is that government should be supporting businesses not putting extra burdens upon them ministers should be removing barriers to regeneration and investment not introducing new ones if we want our high streets to survive and to thrive in the future as I don't doubt every member in this chamber here today wants it will need more than one words it will need real and sustained action thank you I now call on Colin Smith thank you Presiding Officer I'm pleased the economy and fair work committee agreed to carry out our inquiry into the future of our town centres you won't be surprised to know I'm especially pleased the committee agreed to visit my hometown of Dumfries as part of that inquiry it's where I was born it's where I've always lived and it's where I bring up my family and it's heartbreaking to see the decline in the town centre over the years the town centre really matters to me and it matters to all my fellow Dunhamers just as it was clear throughout our inquiry that town centres really matter to residents and communities right across Scotland because their value is more than the sum of their parts their convenient places to access services shops jobs entertainment places to live but they're more than that they're part of the very fabric of our communities our history our culture our very sense of place they're about who we are as a community and I believe that means the focus the investment the protection they receive should go beyond a strict economic value that's placed on them no one's ever going to look back at a historic photo of an outer town development in 50 years no one will ever reminisce about which supermarket was in that development before the current one but we do look back on the shops the theaters the cinemas the homes that once brought us together but are often now lost to our high streets and if we don't take urgent action soon then there'll be even less to bring us together never mind look back on that doesn't mean our town centres don't need to change they already are but we need to do far more to support them in that change a particular retail and especially those independent that'll take an intervention from Stuart McMillan I thank consmouth for taking intervention that would consmouth agree that sadly at some of the decisions of the past and I mean distant past have actually led to in part to some of the situation we're currently facing in terms of our town centres consmouth agree entirely with what Stuart McMillan said and I'll come to that very point at the moment as Professor Lee Spatch made made that I think the very good observation that we need to stop damaging our town centres in the way that we've certainly done so in the past and that does mean I think more support for those independent shops in our town centres who have a real stake in our high street and the retail is going to be crucial it has changed it has reduced in our town centres but the Scottish retail consortium reminded us that retail still employs 233,000 people in Scotland and contributes 5.8 billion pounds to the economy highly and just how integral retail is to and I quote their words the fabric of our communities and our society the pandemic has accelerated changes in retail in particular the shift to online shopping however Professor Lee Spatch has evidence to the committee and I think whose work in this area has been invaluable was correct when he said the pandemic has accelerated and exasperated some trends but those trends themselves are long standing and the point that Stuart McMillan made Professor Spatch went on to say they will not be reversed without concerted efforts over a number of years and that effort needs to start with us all agreeing to stop doing harm to our town centres Presiding Officer if you want to better protect our town centres the time for tinkering at the edges is over that's why I supported calls that were made to an inquiry for a moratorium on outer town developments where there is space and opportunity to develop in a nearby town centre setting we simply should not be allowing out of town warehouses that offer the same products that can be or in some cases already are available on nearby high streets if that isn't going to mean a moratorium at the very least we need to see a meaningful town centre first approach that didn't happen when the government adopted the principle of town centre first without any real statutory meaning in 2014 and sadly MPF4 fails to properly underpin a genuine town centre first approach and Presiding Officer we won't get the change we need if we don't address the current fiscal imbalance between our high streets and the advantages that exist for outer town developments and online shopping more than any other issue the cost of doing business in our town centres was raised with the committee during our inquiry it's not a new issue the government established town centre action review group support in 2020 stated in that quote the non-domestic rate system is widely perceived to be operationally broken and unfair yet not enough has been done to level the playing field between a high street shop and a supermarket in and out of town development and between bricks and mortar businesses and those who trade exclusively online during an inquiry some members of the committee visited burnt island where they met local businesses to discuss the role of e-commerce as part of a high street shop yet just a few miles away indumferment is a massive amazon warehouse covering more than 950 000 square feet the size of 14 football pitches it's not classed as retail so that means it pays millions of pounds less in tax than it would if it was shops on our high street why should small and medium size businesses pay exorbitant business rates while giant online corporations like amazon get away with paying far less per square meter? Presiding officer we need to end this injustice with an amazon tax on big exclusively online traders and use the income to cut the bills for bricks and mortar shops on our high streets and in our town centres this town centre first approach should also extend beyond retail to housing where support for new housing should be more generous when it utilises space in our town centres recognising the extra cost of developing on brownfield sites and when renovating existing buildings that also means tougher powers to tackle absent landlords who leave buildings in a state of disrepair and it means action from the UK government to end the ridiculous anomaly of charging a higher vat on the redevelopment of existing housing stock than to new build the government can also support a genuine town centre first approach when it comes to how it allocates funding for infrastructure projects such as new theatres new leisure facilities where local authorities and others bring forward plans that should be made clear by government that applications for funding projects that play our genuine part and regenerate in our town centres will get government support unless we give people more reasons to come into our town centres to shop to live for leisure then they will continue to decline. President officer I mentioned the committee's visit to Dumfries earlier every town is unique with its own unique challenges and therefore its own unique solutions but in many ways Dumfries is a microcosm of town centres across Scotland hit by the impact of out of town developments online shopping easy access to cities the consequence has been more and more empty shops but the visit itself did give members a real glimmer of hope in the way the community is fighting back just as our visit to Hamilton gave us the opportunity to meet members of Hamilton our town at the local business improvement district and hear about their excellent community led work support in town centre businesses the visit members made to Dumfries gave them the opportunity to meet with the midstical quarter that's a community benefit company taking the problem of absent landlords tackling the problem of absent landlords directly by becoming the landlord themselves taking back our high street shop by shop investing in neglected properties to deliver the uses that the town itself has identified as it needs affordable retail space community space and crucially new housing in our high street but their journey was hampered made slower because of the lack of revenue support for this work as they became established that's why the committee urged the government to consider the need for seed funding for community led projects that really are listening to the community and driving forward regeneration. I want to add my thanks to everyone who gave evidence to the committee and maybe more importantly for the work they do every day to support the town centres that they care passionately about but they do need more support from government the government's response to the committee's report was largely a case of business as usual a list of work already happening now I recognise there are many welcome initiatives that have been developed in recent years but if the committee were happy with existing work we wouldn't have carried out our inquiry in the first place we want we need to see more action on the cost of doing business on our high street and delivering a level playing field with exclusively online businesses on saying no to damaging out of town developments and having a more strategic approach to investment and housing leisure retail that does genuinely put our town centres first. Presiding Officer as I said at the beginning the time for tinkering is now over. Thank you Mrs Smith we now move to the open debate I call first Fiona Hyslop to be followed by Ross McCall around six minutes. Presiding Officer as a graduate in economic history I was always struck by the analysis that England was described by historians as a country of large towns in many villages whereas Scotland was characterised by many smaller towns and villages. Small town Scotland has in the past had negative connotations but I think this millennium with the Covid pandemic making us consciously and physically rethink our geographic boundaries and loyalties that our towns can and should be reinvented for modern work, play, rest, shop and living. My lanlythgol constituency has six towns and a number of villages each quite distinct and different and they are in lies the solution as Professor Lee Sparks clearly set out in his evidence to our committee. From the old ancient royal borough and market town of lanlythgol was an innovative one lanlythgol community development trust and bid combined who gave evidence to the committee to the long archetypal main streets of former mining towns of Armadale, Whitburn, Brockesbury and Uphall, to the brand new burgeoning new town developing in Winchworth from a former shale mining village and to Bathgate whose community council has been retelling the story of the town through plaques. Bathgate is of course home to Scotland's first ever business improvement district and its choose Bathgate initiative has helped to build resilience to town centre shop occupation and complementary digital sales, bucking trends elsewhere, resisting the pool of neighbouring larger Livingston. We are clear that town centres are not just high streets and although we did look at retail it became very clear that returning high streets to living accommodation to replace lost footfall from hybrid workers was a big agenda but with cost prohibitions which must be surmounted. Much is happening in this area as the minister's reply and speech set out. There is a plethora of funding, policy and initiatives. The Scottish Government's town centre vision, the new future for town centres report, the response, the new retail industry leadership group, bids, MPF for permitted development rights and new class uses, town centre regeneration funding, direct and land and vacant land funding, place based funding, community empowerment funding, the place principle and the town centre first principle. We were told by Phil Prentis of Scotland's town partnership that there has never been so much resource and attention being invested in town centre work so we must capitalise on that and drive town centre work forward with energy and conviction. The character of each town needs their story, their community can lead to the best town action plans but this needs support to cultivate and nurture and the lack of community development personnel and funding as Colin Smith has just said can hold things back. The community empowerment funding element to this is important and although capital funding is welcome it often lacks supporting revenue. We heard that we offer a private sector often more leeway in risk than community led initiatives and we question that. The much recognised Dumfries Quartus People project led regeneration originated in a community arts project by the Stove cultural organisation and our report stresses that role. The fabric of many of our high streets has been improved by heritage funding, capital grants from Historic Environment Scotland and culture projects funded by Creative Scotland has breathed new life into these towns. The many for example cinemas that have been refurbished via cultural funding has brought breathed life into many towns centres. Many towns are blighted by vacant properties and derelict land such as the Victoria hall space in Llynyddgo and the old bus depot office at the cross in Llynyddgo. Our councils need more powers to take those spaces over and we must also pursue the recommendation of transparency of ownership and registering responsibility. The minister notes in his reply that the UK government has launched a similar scheme that requires that any overseas entity buying or selling land and property across the UK will need to be registered but minister willis be available to local authorities enforcement departments and will address the barriers which limit councils ability to use their existing enforcement powers. I was shocked that apart from one flat which had someone living there almost all the properties in the main street of Dumfries when we visited had their second floors lying empty when conversion to flats would bring regular football and vibrancy. Now MPF4 and local flexibility on new classes for use can help attract new businesses but we will need to provide incentives for town centre living works. I am also very disappointed in the minister's response that the very successful digital boost grant funding is not being implemented in favour of digital productivity labs. If we know that digital boost has driven economic growth and activity and therefore public revenue return then surely there is a case for having both. We need to incentivise businesses to locate in town centres and that either means making it cheaper for them to do so or more expensive to locate outside. Now we were provocative in our recommendations but we are yet to see if MPF4 without statutory prohibition has done enough or if it will fall shy of preventing out-of-town development. Now I know that the minister will pay attention to all these points he was very impressive in committee and I know he's committed to this and is a very able minister but I hope he acknowledges the concerns and criticisms raised by the committee. We must face the future for town centres with realism but I also think that optimism. With an aging population we need accessible town centres with local hubs and bespoke bus services, a hub and spoke mechanism can help to do that. Twenty minute neighbourhoods demand that. We also need to think about people with disabilities and design those neighbourhoods accordingly. Our towns connect us to each other. We realise this more than ever in 2020 when that connection was lost with lockdown. We must champion our towns, we must keep them open for business and living and we must ensure that they thrive and are fit for future decades. Thank you very much Mrs Alffine. I call Rose McCall to be followed by Gordon MacDonald for around six minutes. Thank you Deputy Presiding Officer. I join colleagues in thanking the Economy, Jobs and Fair Work Committee for their excellent and informative report. As someone who left school and started working for House of Fraser stores quite some time ago, I worked in that chaotic wonderful world of buying trends, sales periods, merchandising, displays, promotional push and understanding pay packet time management. I'll give you a classic example of that and how many people do you know who get frustrated about Christmas displays in shops in October? Customers have two months' salary to spend before the big day and therefore retailers need to start advertising displays to capitalise on it. Start too early in September and you confuse the Halloween period, wait too long and you miss the split between buying gifts and the Christmas day shop. No one wants to focus on Christmas day before the schools have taken their midterm holidays, but retail needs to have you thinking about Christmas before the end of October pay. Traditional retail doesn't work in the year and now summer clothes lines are ordered in winter and displayed in stores a good two months before you think you need them. Plans for that year's Christmas display are worked on as soon as shoppers go out to the January sales. You have to understand the issues facing the retail sector, the time factors in business planning and where support is needed before you can help them. Our high streets are in steady decline and help is required now. Deputy Presiding Officer, our town centres are dissolving before our very eyes and, unfortunately, the SEP plans to make radical improvements are lacking and have been found wanting. I have raised this question in the chamber many times since becoming an MSP the last time was only a few weeks ago in an attempt to find out just how the multitude of plans will make a difference in reality and just what we will expect to see happening from them that would save our town centres. The committee was absolutely right to raise that point in its recommendations where they called for policy cohesion due to the myriad of strategies and they have been eloquently listed by Fiona Hyslop. The last answer I received in this chamber was to wait and give it time. Time was the panacea, time would cure all time was needed for the various plans to come into effect. Unfortunately, it's times that our high streets are rapidly running out of, which is worrying. As was referred to in the conclusions and recommendations of the committee's report, retail is extremely important to Scotland's economy. The sector is experiencing a significant period of change. However, it's not all bad news for the retail sector. In particular, the independent retail sector is thriving in certain places and I'm going to draw an example of Cooper in the region that I represent. The mix of retail, business, residential and community is so natural there that people have felt welcome and encouraged to stay local, shop local and spend local. As a result, the number of empty business units in the thriving Fife town has more than half since 2019. This is fantastic news and it should be a basis for other towns across Scotland. However, when you read the overarching themes of the Scottish Government's retail policy sector, people place just transition. You can see that the policy intention is designed to deliver the aforementioned magical blend, but, as with so many policies put forward by the Scottish National Party Government, they are not listening to what the sector is asking for. The Scottish Retail Consortium regularly publishes reports highlighting the concerns for Scottish retail. The following points are all in their own words because I couldn't put it better myself. They tell us that Scottish store vacancy rate was 15.7% in the most recent quarter, which was quarter 4 of 2022. Most importantly, that has remained at the same level for three quarters now. With regard to Scottish retail sales, they say that consumer demands remain fragile and the outlook is uncertain. They are asking for consistency towards policymaking, town plans and the Scottish retail strategy, saying that Scotland town centres have a great deal to offer. However, the loss of commuters and business travel over the past three years has been sorely felt. Retailers are playing their part in trying to tempt shoppers back to our towns and city centres through a blend of price, promotions and service. They state that it also needs a concerted effort to reduce the cost of operating in our town and city centres. With the 2021 review of the town centre's action plan, I will, yes. I thank Ross McWall for taking the intervention, just on the point regarding price. I fully accept that, particularly when it comes to fuel in some supermarkets, in particular, petrol stations, there is a price differential from location to location. However, when petrol stations have petrol stations, I can think of Tesco and Morrison stations and one constituency in particular, that are charging up to 10 pence per litre more as compared to places in Linwood and Renfrew, that is going to be a hindrance to increasing the footfall into those particular supermarkets but also the wider town centres. I thank the member for the question. I am quickly looking back on my speech because I did not mention fuel, but anyway, I thank the question. It is a valid point, but it is not actually the point that I am trying to make. This is promotions, price and service. It states that it needs to be a concerted effort to reduce the cost of operating in our towns and city centres. With the 2020 review of the town centre action plan saying explicitly that town centres have become too expensive to operate in and this restricts economic activity. They go on to say, whilst they applaud the Scottish Government's decision to freeze the business rates for 2324, however, the freeze should not be the limit of Parliament's ambition on rates. Presiding Officer, if we truly want the offer on our high streets to work, we have to take on board what is being said by the people on the front lines. We can provide the rates relief for all those sectors if the will is there. 220 million was provided by the UK Government for the rates relief scheme, not only would we have been able to put that in at a cost of £204 million, but the implementation costs were also paid for. When towns like Cooper are bucking the trend, there is hope. The answers are there if only we would listen. I remind members that I am the chair of the cross-party group on independent convenience stores. The committee report has a focus on town centres as well as over half the population of Scotland living in our towns. Town centres should be the beating heart of our communities, the length and breadth of Scotland, however our high streets have been changing in recent decades. Many chain stores have been closing from Burton's to Woolworth's, leaving large vacant buildings that are difficult to let and soon become a blight on our town centres. The trend was accelerated by the pandemic as more people shopped online. In December 2019, the online share of retail sales was 19 per cent just before the pandemic hit and rapidly rose to 38 per cent in January 2021, as shops closed during lockdowns and people avoided unnecessary social interaction. In order to turn this around and put our town centres back at the heart of our communities, we need to tackle the large number of empty commercial properties by bringing them back into use, although not necessarily as retail units. The footprint of our main shopping areas has shrunk and those buildings on the periphery could be converted into much-needed homes where that is possible. That could also be the case with the empty storeys above shop units, bringing people back to live at the centre of town. We need to increase footfall. We heard from witnesses who provided examples where large empty retail units have been converted into gyms, health centres, council offices and college space, all of which has helped to bring people back into the centre of their town, supporting retailers and hospitality businesses. We also need to encourage the growth of independent retailers, support the creation of incubator units for start-up businesses and encourage social enterprises if we want to see thriving town centres again. In order for us to happen, landlords have to realise that long leases of 10 or 20 years are no longer acceptable to everyone, as in the current economic climate, no-one wants to take on that risk. In the west-side plaz in the western hills area of my constituency, the landlord has let one empty unit to the community wellbeing space home to the community wellbeing collective. This is a group of 30 people who live in and are connected to western hills who aim to enhance health, wellbeing, develop local action and create community cohesion in order that they can tackle the effects of poverty, social isolation and low mental health. One way of assisting all new tenants and landlords of empty commercial properties would be for the UK Government to amend the VAT legislation. Depending on the nature of building work, the purpose and the VAT status of the client, the VAT can be charged at either 20 per cent, 5 per cent or even zero rated. That confusion can create a disincentive for anyone to invest in old buildings that are often lying empty or abandoned, which could be brought back into use. In recent years, prior to the pandemic, across both cities and towns, the proportion of independent retailers was increasing while the proportion of chain stores was decreasing. Post-pandemic trend is continuing, however, independence now has to compete with online retailers who, in many cases, have lower overheads. In order to protect our town centres, we need to encourage bricks and mortar retailers to trade online in order that they can add additional sales from outwith their area, enabling them to support their businesses to remain on the high street. Currently, 35 per cent of Scottish businesses have an online presence. However, only 20 per cent of businesses believe that they have the skills and the need to trade on the internet. The Scottish Government's digital boost development grant was significantly oversubscribed, highlighting the support businesses need in developing their digital skills. The pilot digital productivity labs need to be rolled out across Scotland as soon as possible to provide tailored support programmes for the retail sector. Evidence from business gateway indicates that Scottish businesses are still reluctant and not necessarily picking up the opportunities, so their digital maturity is not yet as evolved or developed as we might want it to be. Other witnesses highlighted that although Scotland is 8 per cent of the UK population, we have less than 2 per cent of the e-commerce jobs located north of the border. Small businesses need that support now. There is no doubt that retailing has faced many challenges in recent years from the financial crash of 2008, Brexit and then the pandemic. Brexit has resulted in staff shortages, lack of goods from the EU or obtained at a higher price, but it is not all bad news. The good news for our town centres is that this Christmas shoppers returned to the high street as there were no restrictions in opening hours as in previous years. Online sales fell by 30 per cent from its peak to a 27 per cent market share, partially due to postal strikes, making deliveries uncertain. For the five weeks to 31 December 2022, total retail sales in Scotland increased by 11.3 per cent when compared with December 2021. Even adjusting for inflation, those figures still remain a positive sitting at 3.9 per cent. We need to take this opportunity and support our town centres to once again be at the heart of our communities. I thank members of the committee for what is an important and timely report. Our town centres, as we have heard, should be the beating heart of our communities, but for too long, as the report notes, they have been in decline. In decline due to, yes, a lack of investment, but also a change in habits with people becoming more inclined to go to shopping centres and retail parks and do shopping from the comfort of their home online. It is not realistic to suggest that those are trends that we would be able to reverse entirely. Indeed, it is not realistic to believe that change is not required as people will return to the town centres in time. What we need is town centres that are adaptable, vibrant, diverse and modern, town centres that meet the needs of individuals and a family in 2023, and town centres that are consistently underpinned by community and togetherness and supported by a determination here, as the report mentions, to rebalance the cost of doing business in town centres compared to out of town. I cannot contribute to this debate today, however, without mentioning a vital relationship highlighted in the report, which is the importance of local government in improving our town centres. Across Scotland, we have a vision for what our town centres ought to look like, what they could look like to meet the needs of a modern Scottish population. However, for those dreams and visions to become a reality, they need funding. Local government, local councils need funding. It is therefore, in my view, beyond belief that, year after year, budget after budget, the SNP will cut the budgets of those who provide our local services, the services that so many rely on. I have no doubt that we have heard the minister, of course. Emma Harper. In my work, I have been doing some stuff around derelict buildings, so I am here listening to the debate today because that is important to me. However, does Carl Mocken agree that the local authorities do have several discretionary statutory powers available to tackle derelict buildings, which the report outlines amnesty notices, defective building notices and dangerous buildings notices? There are powers that local authorities have. I acknowledge the point that the member is making. I think that the point that I am trying to make is that it is about the wider role of local government in supporting their communities and that there is absolutely an acceptance that the current administration does not value the role of local government as much as perhaps we would all like. In my view, we must do better on this front. At this point, I wish to pay tribute to East Ayrshire Labour councillors who were able to secure key concessions in this year's budget for the people of East Ayrshire. The secured increased investment in tackling anti-social behaviour to make our town centres safer, the ensured resources would be given to tidying our streets and removing vandalism to make our town centres cleaner and the work to keep key amenities such as public toilets open to make our town centres more accessible. The Labour councillors put forward key points and key amendments because they are areas that are listed by our communities and our constituents of things that they would wish to see done better and would help to improve our local communities and town centres. I pay tribute to them because it is Labour and local government that are trying to find ways to deliver for the communities despite the challenges that are laid before them in terms of local government funding. It is important, like my colleague Colin Smith, that I speak a bit of town centre housing. Moving forward, we have to make town centre living an attractive prospect. I look to Labour-run North Lanarkshire, where previously used buildings such as churches are now being renovated by councils and housing associations to create state of the art modern and accessible homes. Using those powers that they can to the best of their ability, crucially they are being built in close proximity to retail, health services and transport hubs, providing an affordable rate as council housing but maintaining some key components of the previous use to ensure familiarity remains for local people. In order for our vision for town centres to be met, we have to be proudly speaking not only about council house living but town centre council house living, supplemented by key amenities and resources that will bring life back to towns across our country. Absolutely we can have a used or centred approach but we must also look to do all we can to ensure that that approach acts to the benefit of the small businesses that we have heard about, the low paid workers and the local community. The observations made in the report in this regard are of significant concern, particularly in that many local businesses do not know where to look for support. We must focus our efforts towards absolutely ensuring that there is a diverse range of options available to town centre users but also reaffirming the view that the small businesses moving forward see the benefits. I once again note the importance of this report and thank the committee for bringing it forward. We have a long way to go to realise the vision of our town plans but to ensure that we get there, we must ensure that people, residents and small businesses are at the centre and all are supported by strong funding for local councils to deliver on the key areas of work. I thank the clerks, the convener and advice convener, for guiding this long and complex inquiry. I'm pleased to speak to as part of the economy and fair work committee but I'm also influenced by my other work such as on the finance and public administration committee. Presiding officer, you'll be pleased to know that I propose to outline just a few personal thoughts as to why town centres and their regeneration are important and I guarantee that I will take less than the prescribed six minutes. As an important yet often forgotten part of Scotland's economy, they have a vital role to play not only in terms of local communities but in terms of sustainable economic growth and sometimes we forget that amongst these other elements there are powerful hubs of business activity and not least of all SME activity which is such a critical role to play in our national economy and so if town centres contract it's not only a tragedy for many communities it almost certainly has a negative impact on sustainable growth as well as a multitude of impacts in other areas such as culture, a sense of place and so on and the range of affected areas have already been noted by Claire Baker as our convener. I wonder if the member might agree with me that sometimes when we discuss town centres how empty retail units might be used we almost treat the equivalence their purposes between commercial purposes residential and indeed sort of voluntary but actually that commercial hub that town centres represent is actually critically important we need to have that focus on that commercial use. I strongly agree with the suggestion he makes and perhaps that's where the allowing for the flexibility is outlined in the planning system by my colleague Fiona Hyslop gets increasingly important because they must be community hubs which allow for a variety of activities and actually I go on to say the type of economic activity in town centres is much more broadly based even just now than many realise at present so I can go to town centres in my own constituency and of course there's retail shops there but there's professional services, accountants, pubs, entertainment venues, community play groups, cultural centres, coffee shops and many other types of SMEs. Sometimes however the challenges that these different activities interact with different support funding opportunities different regulatory controls and so on meaning that a town centre can be a place amidst a complex web of policy and funding support streams and I think that's part of the challenge to help move things on. This complexity's got an added dimension in that it's not the same everywhere and the committee's rightly pointed out that there are different remits and sometimes a very different delivery focus of the three enterprise agencies that together span Scotland. It worries me I must say that there is a gap in place-based support available for towns and communities not covered by either Highlands and Islands Enterprise or South of Scotland Enterprise and I know the Scottish Government's been asked by the committee to respond for this and I one hope that the government will be able to increase their thinking around this arena. It can't be justifiable to effectively have some towns and communities having less ease of access to support funds than others. Another issue that's been known about for some years is the need to address the cost imbalance between out-of-town development and town centre regeneration and I know that it's already been brought up today in this debate and so we have to find creative ways to lower the barriers for town centre development and in my judgment we will simply not be able to realise our aspirations to regenerate Scotland's towns if we don't tackle this issue head on and give it due importance in policy development. Now the committee's further commented on and indeed today in the debate current VAT rules add to the imbalance and they add to both distortions in local communities and create further disincentives. We've heard examples of that earlier. So the Scottish Government is asked to set out what discussions it's had to date with the UK Government and VAT but in truth I'd go further. If it is possible to devise tax incentives to support free ports, which are much more controversial business places, then perhaps we can think more creatively about releasing some of the tax burdens on town centres and I'd venture to point out if say a reduction in overall tax burden had the result of encouraging many more small start-up businesses in our town centres, the cost to the exchequer would be minimal or even better. Now, although I focus mainly on economic and business issues, I end by joining my colleagues in recognising the quality of life benefits to be had from thriving town centres and the important history they are of us and from us and will continue to be within them. They can bring real social environmental improvements to town centre communities and that has to be nurtured and treasured. After all, is it not the purpose of politicians to provide such improvements for the people that we serve? I'm sure that we all aim to do that. I can advise the chamber that we've got a bit of time in hand, so members shouldn't feel constrained in their comments, but thank you very much indeed, Ms Thompson. I now call Maggie Chapman to be followed by Siobhan Brown, a generous six minutes, Ms Chapman. I'd like to begin by thanking all of those organisations, community groups, individuals and businesses who gave up their time to share their experiences and expertise with the Economy and Fair Work Committee during the inquiry. I also want to put on record, as others have done, my thanks to the committee clerks and SPICE researchers for all their support during the inquiry and the production of the committee report and, of course, thanks to my committee colleagues for their thoughtful work on this important topic. We have already heard and will likely hear more consensus expressed this afternoon, mirroring the consensus that has been widely shared within the evidence and conversations of the Economy and Fair Work Committee. To a large extent, we share a clear vision of what we want for Scotland's towns and their centres, as unique and cherished places where humans and non-human nature can flourish and thrive. Town centres where people of all ages, both those born nearby and those who have come from further or far away, share a vibrant and supportive community of care, support and discovery. Where they live in comfortable, warm, safe and dry homes, appropriately and sustainably built, converted or modernised. Where they can reach the places where they need to go by active travel or public transport easily, accessibly and affordably. Town centres with local businesses where people can easily buy or access the goods and services that they need for their day-to-day lives. Many of those special purchases and projects that are at their best can be a pleasure to choose as well as to enjoy or give away. Where customers know that what they buy in their own town is of good quality, responsibly sourced and that they are not being forced to pay significantly higher prices than elsewhere. Where they also know that they are contributing towards good and fair livelihoods, sustainable businesses, places where employees, partners and co-owners can work free of insecurity and precarity with decent pay and fair work for people of all genders and ages. Businesses that are good enough in every sense to attract customers from far as well as near. Town centres with all the important places that people need to gather together, schools and nurseries, libraries and community centres, surgeries and advice centres, venues, cafes and pubs and all the special places they can enjoy either together or alone, gardens and parks, beaches and riverside walks, green spaces that heal and restore both mind and body. Town centres that recognise and celebrate their own stories, the histories, cultures and memories that make them unique, knowing that those histories are far from over. We also share many common perceptions and insights about the barriers to achieving that vision. We recognise resource limitations, especially financial, and the difficulties which can arise from imbalances between capital and resource funding. We acknowledge with deep regret policies and practices of exclusion. These too often have served to reward the already privileged and push the marginalised yet further outside circles of care and consideration. We see in particular that patterns of out-of-town development have often assumed that residents have access to private cars, leading to ways of life that are both environmentally and sustainable and socially unjust. We have noted failures of participation and of opportunity and have heard disappointing experiences of discouragement and cynicism. However, we have also heard and shared many encouraging and positive ideas about how to overcome those barriers and achieve the futures that our towns need and deserve. We have heard something about best practice in Scotland, including from towns in my own north-east region and from across the world. We know that Scotland's towns need genuine and robust support. Frameworks in which carrying out those best practices is not only possible but attractive, exciting and easier to achieve than the bad alternatives. Those frameworks of support have to work for all of our towns, acknowledging underlying patterns of exclusion and marginalisation. They have to recognise not only under investment but forms of investment that have been unhelpful or limited in their benefits. They have to name and redress the long legacies of industrial change without transformation, the broken promises that have left communities isolated and abandoned. We know from examples like in Verruri and Huntley that Scottish towns—not least, I might even say especially towns in the north-east—can be imaginative, sustainable, original and groundbreaking in their shared vision for the future and their shared participation in making that future happen. We also know that other north-eastern towns, with residents no less imaginative, generous, community-focused or forward-looking, towns such as Peterhead and Fraserborough have been left behind by decades of austerity and neglect. It is our role urgently now to take up that shamefully abandoned responsibility and to make the just transition not only a reality but a priority. Finally, we need to look with clarity and honesty at the scale of the task ahead, the task of helping Scotland's towns to become truly resilient. Places of community, culture and mutual support in the climate changed years ahead. We need to be bolder in challenging vested interests, in dislodging the inertia of the status quo, in enabling genuine participation in decision making, in amplifying unheard voices and in prioritising wellbeing and real sustainability. Both present and future generations deserve no less. I look forward to working with colleagues across the chamber on the task to make our vision for our towns and their centres to be unique and cherished places where humans and non-human nature can flourish and thrive. Making that vision a reality is our task. I start by thanking the work of the Economy and Fair Work Committee on their inquiry into retail and town centres in Scotland and the subsequent published report, and I welcome the opportunity to contribute in this debate today. If I may also declare an interest as the chair of the town and town centres CPG, and I'm hosting a reception this evening, celebrating an evening of improvement districts in Scotland, and if any of my colleagues would like to attend, you'll be more than welcome. Let's rewind back 25 years ago. When I first moved back to Scotland, I initially stayed with my grandparents who lived in an ex mining village three miles out of Aire, and every couple of days my grandmother would get on the bus to go into Aire to get her messages. In those days, Aire was absolutely buzzing. The length and the breadth of the high street was jam-packed with retail choice, Blockbuster, John Menzies, CNA, remember all of them. Everybody looks back on those days with treasured memories and nostalgia, and there is a demand to get the towns back to the way they were. But the hard cold truth is that our towns will never be the same as they once were. Over the past 25 years, we have seen a steady decline in our town centres, not only in Aire, but across the whole of Scotland as they have faced challenges of changing and evolving retail patterns. We have seen retail industrial estates open up out with town centres, the main supermarkets have based themselves on the outskirts of towns, and of course the increase in online shopping. All that has been exacerbated and accelerated further in the past few years by Covid-19, Brexit and now the current cost crisis. For many, it is still a hard fact to accept that our town centres will never be the way they were many years ago. However, I do believe that there is a common understanding that our town centres are vital to the collective wellbeing of our communities, economy and environment. Now we have the opportunity to completely rethink how we do things and move forward with ambition and optimism to rebuild our town centres to be vibrant, creative, enterprising and accessible. I welcome the Scottish Government's approach to delivering its town centre vision that is centred on collaboration and partnerships, working to build on local assets. As we know, local authorities have the responsibility for delivering local economic development and local regeneration. The Scottish Government's town centre action plan can only succeed if it is supported by effective partnership working. I would just like to focus initially on this point because I think it is an extremely important point. Town centres are not going to be transformed overnight and there needs to be an ambitious vision and long-term plan in place, which all parties must be involved in, regardless if you are in administration or opposition to drive progress forward. I was elected as a councillor in 2017 and a lot of energy, time, investment was dedicated in planning to transform air town centre. The air town centre regeneration group was set up with councillors of all parties invited to contribute to the long-term plan of air. Sadly, opposition councillors did not attend any meetings to contribute, but they were very local in the local press opposing any plans that the administration put forward. The council decided to purchase an empty department store to transform it into a much needed local leisure centre. Once the council committed to this investment, we saw the private sector have confidence to invest in air and a private company bought a neighbouring empty shopping centre to turn into a new cinema complex to coincide with the opening of the leisure centre. This would have been transformational for air town centre and convert a huge chunk of empty retail into leisure. Unfortunately, as too often is the case, opposition parties opposed any plans of this development. Now, in the administration at South Asia Council, they have cancelled the leisure centre project, hence the private investment has now pulled out. At this present time, there is no long-term plan to transform air town centre, and another consultation has been launched, although this work was already done back in 2018. If we are ever going to see progress for the sake of our town centres, we need a cross-party, cross-administration approach. We need to go beyond the politics for the sake of politics and put our constituents and support for town centre regeneration at the forefront. On a more positive note, while some of our towns are struggling, we also have some examples of towns that are flourishing, and what a better example to look at in the town of Preswick, which I am really proud to represent in Parliament. After all the extraordinary hard work and commitment by the community, Preswick was crowned the best high street in Scotland in 2019. If you take a visit to Preswick, which I would like you all to do, you will find that there is plenty to get you occupied. It has more restaurants and cafes than you can count, full small independent shops and has a nightlife that attracts many from afar. Despite the challenges of the past few years, business is still booming in Preswick, and there is stiff competition to take up any vacant retail spaces that emerge. The reason why Preswick has succeeded where others have failed is because it has taken an individualised approach that serves the need of the community. I strongly believe that Scotland should be an entrepreneurial superpower where people with bright ideas and ambitions are encouraged to open up business and contribute to the economy, just like so many people in my constituency do. We must support—I have got 15 seconds, sorry. I have not given you the tone back, Ms Brown. I am interested in the example that she is giving because we did visit different towns. Sometimes we found that, although the ones that were successful, we could point to that they had good local businesses. However, there were also factors such as the fact that it was a cheaper place to do business, the parking was easier, the community was a bit more mixed, there was a bit more money in the community. I wonder if Preswick has any of those advantages that neighbouring areas might need a bit more support in order to achieve the success that they have had? I think that Air Town Centre is quite unique, because I think that 30, 40 years ago you did have the residents and all the flats above the shops, which in time has moved away, and in Preswick what is different—and it is also in Trun as well—is that you have a lot of residents and unresidential dwellings in the town centre. I think that makes it busier as well, which is the difference between air specifically as the county town and Preswick and Trun. Deputy Presiding Officer, in conclusion, looking back to the past is important. It allows us to learn lessons from mistakes made and, of course, indulge in nostalgia. However, if we are to succeed, we must look ahead with a fresh perspective, new ideas and endless ambition, and that is how our town centres will thrive again. Thank you. Thank you very much, Ms Brown. I am Sam Simpson, to be followed by Evelyn Tweed for her own six minutes, please, Mr Sam Simpson. Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I think that it has been a really interesting debate so far, and I have enjoyed listening to the contributions. Particularly the last one from Siobhan Brown, and I am always interested in hearing from Siobhan Brown. She mentioned a couple of towns in her patch, Air and Preswick. I had the pleasure of being in both towns very recently, and I drove—I was on a visit to Air and then Preswick—and drove through Preswick town centre. It was the first time I had been in Preswick town centre. I was on my way to the airport, which I have been to a few times, but never through the town centre. I remember commenting to a colleague, I thought that that was lovely, that place. That is so varied, and I will have to come back here. That is what it is like. The picture that Siobhan Brown paints was exactly right, so I fully intend to go back there and park up and do some shopping, because that is the way I like to see a town centre. The point here is that town centres come in all shapes and sizes, and if I may, I am just going to mention a few in my own region. Of course, representing a region, I have lots of towns, but if I can start in the town that I live in, East Kilbride, and we have built Scotland's largest undercover shopping mall. It has been struggling for a number of years and it recently went into administration. It is still in administration, so a huge shopping centre in administration. I spoke to the administrators yesterday, and I think the message is that it is not all doom and gloom. There is a plan being worked on for East Kilbride, where we could look at reconfiguring. Maybe we can have a bit more of a leisure mix, as opposed to mostly retail. Maybe we can get more housing, but the centre has not been put up for sale yet. I do not think that there is any particular rush there. If we then turn to Hamilton, which the committee visited, and it is a different picture, there is a covered mall, but most of the town centre is not covered. It is out of doors, a little bit like Presswick. You have a relatively successful bid project there, which the committee came across. I should say that I was not on the committee at that point. I joined at the tail end of this inquiry. A different picture there. Then we go across to North Lanarkshire, and you have Cumbernauld, another new town. Unfortunately, twice the winner of the Pluk on the Plinth award, which they won on the now defunct, thankfully, Carbuncle awards, but not some… Yes, I will. In defence of Cumbernauld, the reason that that award is defunct is because it caused great offence to people who live there. It is a good thing that is defunct, and we should be celebrating all the fantastic things that towns do. He said that it would be optimistic. Why is dwelling one on the past and also on a negative past? I am being optimistic because there is a plan for Cumbernauld. It has attracted £9.2 million of levelling up money. I am sorry that Tom Arthur was so negative about the levelling up funds, but that money is going to help to regenerate Cumbernauld town centre. I, like Fiona Hyslop, am delighted that those awards do not exist anymore, because they were entirely negative. She is absolutely right that people did not like having this badge applied to their town. However, I think that there is hope for Cumbernauld, thanks to actually all stakeholders working together. Governments, both Governments, the council and, unlike Carole Mocken, I could not care less what the political persuasion of the council is. I do not think that anyone does, because there are councils of all shapes and sizes and colours in Scotland who are doing their best for their town centres. For her to stand up and say, only Labour can deliver good town centres is, frankly, ludicrous. However, there is hope for Cumbernauld. If we look at Motherwell, where there is work going on—I see Claire Adamson at the back—there is work going on in Motherwell to improve the town centre. There is work going on at the station. I think that we will end up with a nicer offering in that town. We come in all shapes and sizes. I just wanted to make that point. If we want to attract people into our town centres, we need to be looking at things like—I know those who have mentioned it—getting people living there. We need to look at things like free parking. If we want to attract people into town centres, we need to offer things like that. We need to look at the rate system. If I can just end the point that Age Scotland makes about people having access to town centres, I think that this is where public transport comes in. We really need to look at having a really good public transport offering in all our town centres, because too often it is too difficult to get in and out of them. If we want customers and we want footfall, we need a decent public transport system. I call Evelyn Tweed to be followed by Alec Rowley for around six minutes. I would like to thank colleagues today for a very positive debate on our town centres and how to get them thriving again. Like Siobhan Brown, I too hark back to the days of a thriving air town centre coming from air originally. When I was small, every Saturday I went to town with my mum and we had a good look round the shops. Sometimes it was a bit boring for me if my mother was on the clothes shopping mode. However, I really enjoyed going to Willys for a look at the toys and maybe pick and mix for the bus home. I doubt if that is an experience many children and adults have these days. Throughout most of the last century, we had a planning system and Governments that supported retail in the town centre and the clearance of housing. Prime sites on principal shopping streets soared to extraordinary values. Then American-style malls came in and were reliant on massive anchor stores that are now failing due to the rise of online retailers and support for out-of-town shopping centres. We have spoken a lot today about that already. Those retail parks, however, performed much better than the high street during lockdown and the pandemic. We are never going to recreate the town centres of my childhood, but we can create vibrant town centres that can be central to the ambition for a 20-minute neighbourhood across Scotland. The committee's report asks how the Government might incentivise social landlords to build in town centres. From my professional experience, affordable housing should be central to the regeneration of town centres. I am pleased to see that the Scottish Government is already investing £3.2 billion in affordable housing over the five years of this Parliament. I wish a town centre in my constituency. Tomorrow I will be cutting the ribbon on trust housing's development in the town centre. It has been a gap site for almost 25 years in the middle of our town centre. It is going to bring new homes right to adjacent to the local businesses and reinvigorate the whole town centre. Will you welcome that development in my area? That is absolutely amazing. I am going to go on to speak more about that in my constituency and in other places. This is an increase of more than £541 million on the previous five-year allocation, which is an uplift of more than 20 per cent. Social landlords will need additional funding for brownfield sites, for poor site conditions or contamination, and they will need to be encouraged that projects that seek to regenerate town centres will be prioritised by the Government. Providing housing in town centres has multiple benefits, providing much-needed housing. The residents do not need to have a private car. Derelict buildings can be repurposed or demolished and, crucially, bringing people into town supports businesses and encourages other businesses to move in. It was good to hear Colin Smith's comments on Dumfries and that Dumfries was included in the case studies as part of the report from the inquiry into town centres and retail. I worked as a development director for a social landlord in Dumfries for 15 years, and I took the view that the use of the affordable housing grant would be better spent in town centres. I am probably responsible for at least 60 of the new houses that were noted in the report and also brought student accommodation into the town to serve the expanding right on campus. From that experience, however, I can say that brownfield town centre sites are not easy to develop. It carries much greater risk than greenfield locations, and no matter how much feasibility work that you do, things go wrong. There are unforeseen costs. The social landlord is then left responsible for those additional costs. If the Government really wants to incentivise landlords, it needs to provide a safety net if things go wrong and provide support and potentially further funding, even when the development may already be on site. We also need to be prepared to address planning issues. Moatbury, now the national centre for children's literature, is also mentioned in that report. The social landlord that I worked for at the time purchased Moatbury as it was derelict and an isor and was keen to build 20 desperately needed flats. The intention at the time was to maintain the façade and provide flats behind with a visitor centre commemorating JM Barrie, who had links to Moatbury. However, a community trust opposed the development and eventually the association transferred the property to that group. The Moatbury restoration by the community trust took 10 years to build at a cost of £8.5 million, made up of public donations and various grants from the Heritage Lotary Fund, Creative Scotland, etc. The housing association's plans would have probably cost about £1.5 million, of public money and taken about a year to complete. The point of this story is that putting housing into historic town centre buildings, particularly where demolition is involved, is not always popular. Ms Tweed, could we start the winding up of your marks, please? Okay, thank you. I'll just skip to the end, then. I thought I had more time than that, but I've had a bit more time. Putting social housing on greenfield sites when town centres are struggling makes little sense. Let's ensure that there is a real focus and allocation of housing budget to regenerate our town centres and support social landlords to achieve this. Thank you, Ms Tweed. I now call Alec Riley to be followed by cocaps. You're up to six minutes, please, Ms Riley. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I'm pleased to speak in this committee debate today on the conclusions and recommendations within the inquiry into retail in town centres in Scotland report. Scotland's town centres have been under on-going pressure in recent decades with the rise of out-of-town shopping, online shopping and then the pandemic having a major impact. My first point would be that there needs to be some kind of levelling up between out-of-town versus town centre. A point picked up by the committee in recommendation 25, where it says that the committee agrees that the overarching principle must be re-balancing the cost of doing business in town centres versus out-of-town sites. The same can be said for shoppers who face parking charges and access issues when choosing to shop in town centres versus free parking and convenience on the out-of-town parks. Many businesses in town centres like Dunfermline, Kirkcalde raise the issue of parking charges and point out that it is just cheaper and easier to go out of town, and therefore surely that needs to be addressed. Then there are the higher costs to businesses based in town centres. Recommendations 30 of this report says that more needs to be done to address business rates in town centres, and Clare Baker has touched on that. Recommendations 31, the committee state, the current non-domestic rate system acts as a distinctive barrier when trying to attract businesses back to town centres. There are clear messages in that report, and I do fear that we have yet another report and what actions are going to be taken. There are some really good points that the committee is making that need to be picked up on. The committee adds that consistently they heard that the current system of non-domestic rates works against investment and growth in town centre retail, and that non-domestic rate systems should be rebalanced to support town centre developments. Our business rate system must support growth and innovation, encourage good business and no longer penalise our high streets and governments must take this on board. I also note that the committee picks up on the fact that not all town centres have business improvement districts. Indeed, in Dunfermline it was businesses themselves who voted to reject continuing with their bid company, which is proving now to be a big loss to the city of Dunfermline. I support the committee when they say at recommendation 36 that the Scottish Government is asked to set out how support will be provided to towns and communities where there is no bid and without any local community resource. Indeed, I would make the case that where town centre funds are established, the out-of-town stores should be required to contribute. As I know from the Dunfermline experience, this was an issue for many of the smaller businesses who did contribute and voted not to continue with the bid. They felt that there was an imbalance between what they were being asked to pay and contribute compared to all those out-of-town centres. Some of them are just 200 yards from the town centre. I would also say that there needs to be a better structure and process for co-ordinating partnership work in the town centre level. Local authorities, in my view, have a critical role to play but the decision-making needs to come at a local level. All town centres should have development plans that are designed locally, costed and driven by all partners. The committee makes the point. I would like to thank Alex Rowley for taking part in the debate. He is not a committee member and he has obviously read the report thoroughly. Does he support the committee's suggestion that it would be helpful to have a central resource that communities could pull on, whether that was for legal advice or other kind of support and advice, if they were looking for community options, but something that was delivered centrally that they could pull down on? Yes, absolutely. Government needs to look at how their role is in terms of support. I would say that the former leader of Fife Council, I sometimes worry that the council will have far too much to say, we will tell you what you need rather than how we can support you. I think that there needs to be a re-balancing around the role of the councils. They need to support and put resources in, but they need to not be dictating what the decisions will be at the end of the day. The committee makes the point that culture and heritage has an important role in town centre regeneration and sustainability. I agree, but I would suggest that there must be a fairer distribution of such funds from national organisations beyond the large cities into smaller cities and large towns across mid-Scotland and Fife and, indeed, across Scotland. There certainly is a view among many organisations that, if they are not in one of the large cities, a lot of these national organisations simply ignore the pleas and that the pot is not getting split up as equally as it should. I welcome the committee's highlight recommendation 14, the value of an increased demand for online and e-commerce activity. One example of good practice is Coupar in my region Fife. Just last week it was reported that Coupar has cut the number of empty business units by more than half, a success hailed as groundbreaking and possibly the best in the UK. Vacancy rates dropped from 18.2 per cent in 2019 to just 7.6 per cent last year. Colleagues may have seen the Coupar featured in the BBC's Mike in a Town programme, and this is because it is home to Scotland's only digital improvement district, Coupar Now, whose various platforms show the town's active community and vibrant businesses. This kind of success story is welcome and should be looked at in more detail by Government to find out if more forward thinking approaches such as this can be developed to allow local level tailored approaches to local economic development. My experience of town centres is that there are a lot of businesses, social enterprises, culture and art venues all committed to working for the improvement but often feel frustrated at the lack of support and often stumbling blocks being put in the way by public authorities. In conclusion, in finishing up, my message would be that we must empower local stakeholders and communities and build for the future by building in partnership. Thank you, Mr Rowley. I now call on Cokab Stewart, who will be the last speaker in the open debate. After six minutes, please, Mr Stewart. Thank you, Presiding Officer, and thank you to the Economy, Fair Work Committee for their very detailed report. We are all too well aware that Scotland's town centres have faced increasingly challenging circumstances year on year with a seemingly relentless onslaught of obstacles undermining the success of high street retail businesses, large and small, changing work patterns and shopping habits, not necessarily created by the pandemic, but certainly accelerated by it, recruitment issues, exacerbated by the on-going fallout from Brexit, economic challenges, posed by increased energy costs, transport costs and other inflationary pressures. All of those things are combining to make life for retailers an on-going uphill struggle. I would like to take the opportunity to commend in particular small and medium-sized business owners the length and breadth of Scotland, including in Glasgow Kelvin constituency, for their commitment to customers and their perseverance in the face of challenging conditions that they find themselves operating in. Delivering high-quality goods and services, as well as their proven adaptability and resilience, does them huge credit. I welcome this report and the Scottish Government's commitment to address the challenges faced by retail in our towns and communities. I would like to highlight the retail strategy delivery plan being prepared under the leadership of the Minister for Public Finance, Planning and Community Wealth. I hope that the plan will be prepared and enacted with a sense of urgency. Key aspects that will significantly determine the scale of the plan's success are identified in the committee's report and include a requirement for cross-portfolio policy cohesion, ensuring that resources and initiatives dovetail to maximise their positive impact. Upscaling and future-proofing of our retail workforce, particularly in the areas of creating and growing an online presence, is another important strand of the plan of the support needed from Government to enable all retail businesses to benefit from the increasingly important multi-channel model of selling. The Scottish Government has committed £100 million to businesses to improve their digital skills, capacity and capability. It has also committed to support improved broadband capacity, mobile connectivity in towns and town centres to improve local digital platforms. Like the committee, I would welcome more detail on how that vital funding will be allocated and to whom. I also note the committee's request that the Scottish Government consider what equalities expertise the group at taking forward the retail strategy delivery plan demonstrates. It is very important that the group be equipped to deliver effective strategies to remove barriers to advancement for women in retail, which has traditionally had gendered role structures, but also for people of colour and those with disabilities. It is worth considering how Glasgow is responding to the challenges facing retail in its city centre. Some of my colleagues have mentioned some of the streets within my constituency that I am very familiar with and how Glasgow is seeking to support the businesses to adapt and be successful in the most difficult of times. Like all retail centres, the economic impact of the pandemic on Glasgow city centre was profound and is on-going. With its low residential population and reliance on regional travel to work population, Glasgow city centre and the west end of the city have traditionally boasted a high number of retail businesses reliant on those specific drivers of footfall. I would like to commend the work of Glasgow city centre task force for the work that it is doing to tackle the economic challenges facing the city. Since 2020, it has supported retail and attempted to maximise footfall return into the city centre with marketing campaigns, event funding, maximising the use of outdoor spaces, tackling anti-social behaviour and targeting cleansing and environmental interventions. The task force brings together all the core city sectors, including retail, hospitality, the night-time economy, higher education and transport. It is an excellent example of cross-portfolio working. I was also able to attend a meeting by the Glasgow city multi-agency group that brings together a wide range of stakeholders, including retailers, Police Scotland Street Pastors and the Motivation, Commitment and Resilient Pathways group, that work collaboratively to share strategies in a practical solution focus way to ensure safe and inclusive retail experience. The committee has done a thorough job of investigating the issues facing retail businesses, town centres and communities. It has presented some very clear practical options to support retail to survive and thrive in an increasingly fast-changing environment. I welcome the report and I look forward to hearing what I hope will be a very positive response to it from the minister. We now move to closing speeches and I call on Daniel Johnson to wind up on behalf of Scottish Labour. Up to seven minutes please, Mr Johnson. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I should obviously begin with the declaration of interest, which, given that I come from the retail industry, is substantial. I am currently a director and social shareholder of a business with retail interests, so suffice it to say that I am extremely biased towards the retail industry and make no apology for it. I think that there has been a really good debate. I think that looking at both town centres themselves but actually the health of the retail industry more generally and it is incredibly important. I think that one thing that I was struck by listening to both Siobhan Brown and even Tweed in particular is that people do, I think, have a lot of nostalgic memories, but actually retail has always gone through change. Over 100 years ago people railed against the rise of the department stores and the loss of individual mercantile trade, and then people railed after the Second World War about people putting stock out that they did not have to ask a shop assistant to see it. Then people, through the 1780s, railed against the rise of the big national retail chains, and in fact I remember the tail end of that through the 90s living in a retail family. In a sense, the current change is part of a longer-term progression. Colin Smyth is absolutely right that it is what is at stake here is much more than just places of business. Our town centres go to the very heart of the identities of our places, which is why this is important and why we need to think about this very carefully. I am happy to give way to Fiona Hyslop. Fiona Hyslop, the committee was very struck at the end of the race that those empty spaces above shops in the past would have been used for stock and storage, but in looking at the economics of retail, which she is very familiar with, that just-in-case storage has now been replaced by just-in-time. Therefore, that turnaround of stock has completely changed, so we have got all those vacant places above shops, even if they are still there. Indeed, I think that this is a really important issue about how we use our town centres. I shall just come on to this, but I would just like to briefly touch. I think that the committee has done a really excellent job and that Clare Baker did an excellent job of setting out the constituent elements that a town centre needs to thrive because it is not just about the shop units themselves, it is about the transport links, it is about housing density and it is about use. It is also why I was keen to support Michelle Thomson and what she was saying, and it touches on one of the points that is important here about the use. Those are commercial centres. Tom Arthur is absolutely right. Retail is a massive employer, so making sure that you maintain the critical mass for that commercial activity is important because of the jobs that it supports. That is why we need to take great care about change of use. I absolutely think that we need to bring space above stores into residential use, but what I would take care of, which I was trying to allude to in my intervention with the minister, is what we need to do is make sure that we preserve retail space. Converting that too easily into residential space can undermine footfall, because what I would observe as a former retailer is that workplaces just simply generate far more footfall for retail premises than residential dwellings. If you can have both, that is great, but I do not think that you should view them as absolutely equal in convention. The one thing that I would say—I will just come to Grimmson in a moment—is that we need to ensure that we retain retail units and, hopefully, drive down rents to lower the bar of entry for people entering retail in our town centres. If we can come up with policies that do that, we would be on to a winner. I am happy to give way to Grimmson. I thank Daniel Johnson for taking the intervention. I wonder if he agrees with me that it is about getting the balance right. It is not just about having lots of retail. We need people living in our town centres, and too many have too few people living there. It is also about having restaurants, places to eat out, and theatres, if there is space available. Daniel Johnson is absolutely right. It is about the balance between a working population, a residential population and a visiting population, but it is also about the balance between those uses. People are not always going to be buying goods. They may be buying services. If there is one little thing that I would caution people about, it is not necessarily just about retail, but it is about consumer-facing businesses in our town centres. Sometimes services are just as useful and just as good at creating vibrancy in our town centres. I think that balance is absolutely right, and it is finding that equilibrium. I am thinking about how planning policy, tax policy and policies of local councils play into that is really important. I would really like to highlight that the points that are being made by Siobhan Brown, Carol Mocken and indeed Alex Rowley, is that local authorities have an absolutely pivotal way. I totally agree with Alex Rowley that we need our local authorities to work in partnership with our town centres and to help them to thrive. There is a good deal of discussion about online, and I think that that is critical. We need to do everything that we can to support businesses to move online. Frankly, no retail business can survive if it is purely physical. That is just a fact. If you are not trading online, you are trading into decline. It is as simple as that. However, I would observe that those skills are not just purely digital. I would say that the hardest thing about getting your retail business online is probably photography, writing copy. The digital bit is actually quite easy, and what we need to do is make sure that obtaining those skills is easy. I would gently point out to the Scottish Government that scrapping part-time courses at colleges and things such as photography has perhaps hindered that, but most importantly, in terms of that transition, we need those rounded skills, which are not necessarily technology skills, and we need to make sure that they are accessible to people who are very busy running businesses. Just finally, I think that we have to talk about non-domestic rates, because if you talk to retailers, that will be their first point. I would say to the Scottish Government that I do not think that non-domestic rates, if you are looking at it as a new level, would pass your principles for taxation. In terms of proportionality, efficiency and certainty, this is not a tax that is any of those things. It has unintended consequences that have not been accounted for. One of the reasons that the Government likes it is that it always brings in the same amount of money, but that is because it is not reflecting the health on state of retail. We have to rebalance so that retail is not paying twice as much as its overall contribution to the economy. We need to repurpose elements, which is why we should be looking at treating places such as Amazon as retail premises, not warehouse premises, to make sure that, if they were paying their fair contribution of non-domestic rates, there would not be £3 million of non-domestic rates that they would be paying, but it would be £60 million. Finally, we probably need to replace it, because until we do it with a better levy that reflects business health and encourages investment rather than hinders it, we are going to continue to have a problem. I remind members that those who have spoken in a debate are expected to be here for the start of closing statements. I know that one member was late back and one member still has not come back. Of course, that is a discourtesy not just to the chair but to all other members who participated in the debate. Perhaps we will hear from those members in due course. Mr Lumsden, please wind up on behalf of the Scottish Conservatives. Thank you, Presiding Officer. The retail sector and town centres that are led to the breadth of Scotland are facing enormous and often unnecessary pressures at present, and I welcome the opportunity to take part in today's debate. I would like to thank all the organisations that have sent in briefings ahead of today's debate. This Government and those before it led by the SNP have presided over a period of decline in Scotland's retail sector. The change in shopping behaviours was predicted and accelerated by the pandemic, but that should not mean that we accept defeat and manage the decline. We should have had plans in place a decade ago to change how we use our town centres with more people living and working in our centres, but time and time again we see no plan from this Government to re-energise to reinvigorate our town centres, no plan to boost economic growth in the hearts of our communities, no plan to bring jobs and opportunity to these areas, and no plan to help small businesses flourish. Presiding Officer, the SNP and Greens have never been a friend of Scotland's small businesses. What we have seen is an anti-business Government, one that seeks to restrain businesses with unwanted unnecessary bureaucratic shackles. I will give way. The economy committee has heard repeatedly about the importance of the small business bonus that this Government brought in, which was not there before, and is saving thousands upon thousands, hundreds of thousands of businesses from paying any business rates whatsoever. That is very pro-business. It is unfortunate that it was cut at the budget that we did not have long, but what we are also seeing is bureaucratic shackles. There is nothing more evident anywhere else than the shambolic disaster that is the deposit return scheme. Businesses of all sizes across Scotland have been calling for the scheme to be reconsidered for months, yet this Government seems determined to plaw on. Granted, it has been suggested that small businesses may be given some sort of exemption, but the when, what or how still remains muddying the waters and creating more uncertainty for businesses. Proven once again of this Government's disdain for small business is their decision to vote through reforms to the small business bonus scheme in the recent budget, reducing the threshold from 100 per cent relief, thus ripping a lifeline away from so many small businesses in Scotland. Then there is, of course, business rates. The regime in Scotland, which, as identified in the committee's report, places a huge disadvantage on Scottish businesses and remains disincentive to invest. The report that we have in front of us notes that evidence produced by the Government showed that the current non-domestic rates regime is unequitable and unfair. For anyone who has spoken with business owners in our town and city centres, this will be of no surprise. That is why it is so disappointing that the SNP refused to accept the Scottish Conservatives' proposal of a 75 per cent business rate relief. As a result of the Barnett consequentials, this Government could have provided the equivalent support to Scottish retail, hospitality and leisure businesses, which is enjoyed elsewhere in the United Kingdom. Sadly, this Government chose to continue to hamper businesses in our town centres with jacked-up rates. There has been one change recently to non-domestic rates and that has been the devolution of empty property relief to local authorities, meaning that the burden of providing the relief falls to our hard-pressed local councils. My fear is that the relief may be withdrawn altogether as it simply cannot afford to keep it going. At present in Aberdeen, we are seeing perfectly good office accommodation being pulled down to avoid the rate liability, which seems crazy, but at least it is an option for them. However, if you are an owner of a listed building, you do not have that option, but an empty listed building could be liable for non-domestic rates depending on the position that the council takes, which could be different from Ellen to Edinburgh. That could have two outcomes. The first is that the owners are more flexible with their terms, so the building would be occupied. That is what we all want. However, when I speak to the commercial property experts, they do not feel that it is the rent that is the issue. It is the lack of demand that is the problem. The second option is that owners simply walk away adding to the decline in our town centres. Listed buildings are becoming a high risk for people to invest in. I guess that time will tell, because I do not suppose that any modelling has been done by this Government on the potential impact. I turn into other people's contributions. We have heard from others today, and it was good to hear from Ross McCall's real-life experience working in retail, reminding us that many retailers will be working on their plans for Christmas trade just now, and there are only 299 shopping days until Christmas. She mentioned House of Fraser. Aberdeen used to have a House of Fraser, just like he used to have a Debenhams and a BHS and a John Lewis. All of those have gone from Aberdeen's High Street, and they will not be replaced. We need new thinking and new ideas. Claire Baker mentioned the demise of some of the big names in her opening. In Aberdeen, the old BHS building, hopefully, has a new use after Aberdeen was successful in 20 million of levelling up funds. Claire Baker also mentioned digital skills in Scotland has been falling behind the rest of the UK. That is a worrying trend that has to be addressed urgently. It is something that we are hearing in the Finance Committee also. Jamie Halcro Johnston also mentioned the lack of E. Kilmish business support, something that Daniel Johnson also mentioned. He had some great points about the skills required for people to start trading electronically. There was some good news. We heard that Dumfries is fighting back. Ross McColl also mentioned Cooper and the success there, and that is hopefully something that could be replicated across the country. Fiona Hyslop spoke about the business improvement districts. From my experience, they play a vital role, and they often leverage in additional funding from the levy that they raise. She also spoke about the importance on the role of the cultural sector can play to improve our town centres. Graham Simpson spoke about East Kilbride, and the answer might be to move to housing and leisure. I would say that it is a mix of things. I would like to add culture and hospitality to that. She also spoke about the 9.2 million of level and net funding and the need for all levels of government to work together. Finally, Evelyn Tweed, I can share her memories of Woolies being dragged around the shops by my mom to see in a first and then pick and mix from Woolies as my reward. Elsewhere, other property failures of this government, policy failures of this government, are having severe impacts on our town centres. Despite promising, in a 2016 manifesto, to deliver 100 per cent superfast broadband coverage for Scotland by the end of the next Parliament, the SNP has presided over serious delays to the R100 scheme. It is so serious that we will not see that delivered in 2028, and that has a real impact on some of our rural shops and retail. The devolved government has failed to put forward a plan that brings prosperity to our town centres and seems to want to manage the decline, so let me give some areas that they can look at. We could take steps to make our town centres more competitive by supporting Scotland's local councils to exempt high-street and town centres from paying any business rates, realising and releasing businesses of all shapes and sizes from restrictive and unfair taxation. We could take action to bring people back into our high streets by providing local authorities full funding to scrap parking charges and publicly owned car parks, encouraging people to support their high streets. As Alex Rowley said, it is often easier to go out of town. We could stop this war of motorists by making it easier for people to get into their towns and city centres. The Scottish Conservatives would take on the horde of to-let signs that are holding our high streets hostage by supporting communities first right to buy. We deformed planning laws to allow for the redevelopment of brownfield sites to help energise our towns and cities, encouraging new green spaces, revitalising our town centres and returning excitement and opportunity to them. As Ross McCall said, time is running out. But above all, we could pass on the Barnett-1 sequencils and deliver the 75 per cent rates relief so that Scottish businesses can operate on a level playing field as those in the rest of the United Kingdom. I now call on Tom Arthur to wind up on behalf of the Scottish Government up to nine minutes, please. I begin by reiterating my thanks to the committee, Clark's parliamentary officials and all who have contributed to producing this report. I am conscious that the timing of the report at its inception did align with the publication of a retail strategy of Scottish Government's response to the town centre action plan and parliamentary scrutiny of draft NPF4, but that speaks to the topicality of the matter and, indeed, the sustained and profound interest in the future of our town centres, which has been demonstrated today. I am going to try to respond to as many of the individual points that I have raised, and I am very grateful to colleagues for their mostly very measured, thoughtful and considered contributions. In particular, recognising it, this is a profound and strategic challenge that does not lend itself to any silver bullets or easy solutions. Indeed, more than one colleague has made reference to Professor Lee Sparks, and, if I recall correctly, his remarks are aware to the effect that we have spent 50 years doing things to harmer town centres and it is going to take 50 years to fix it. I do not think that any of us want to go and take 50 years to address the problems with our town centres. Also, it is important to recognise the points that Daniel Johnson made when he narrated the reality of the retail sector as something that has always been influx and dynamic in responding to societal change, and, indeed, to the points that Fiona Hyslop made, which is with regards to the need for town centres that are representative and fit for the 21st century. However, it is important to recognise that addressing those problems will not be overnight. It requires sustained effort across administrations, across parliamentary sessions and across all layers of government, national and local. The UK Government has a role to play in providing overall macroeconomic stability. Of course, our communities are doing this in partnership with the private and third sector. To some extent, our town centres are like the complexion of our economic system. Many of the challenges that we highlight with regard to town centres are reflections of deeper issues that lie within how our economy operates. It reflects fundamental economic policy decisions that have been taken over many years. If we consider opening up land for out-of-town retail and more residential development, it is car-dependent at the edge of our settlements, which has removed people from our town centres, reducing populations and reducing the population density that is so essential to providing consumers for our town centre businesses. Indeed, internationalisation of finance and globalisation has brought tremendous opportunities and significant investment to Scotland, but it has led us to a situation in which many of our high streets and town centre properties are owned by interests with no particular local connection to an area. We all have recognised that the committee has the challenges that that brings. That is why, in terms of our fundamental response among many of the other streams of work that have been outlined, community wealth building is going to be so important. Community wealth building is about rewiring how our local economies operate, and it will be a byproduct of that. It will be a consequence of that rewiring of how our local economies operate, in line with all those other broader strategies, that we start to see that material difference in the aesthetic and the range of shops and services that are available within our town centres. There are a number of issues that have been raised. Let me touch to one that is always the perennial matter on questions of our town centres and our high streets. That is non-domestic rates. The legislation that underpins non-domestic rates has been in place, if I recall correctly, from 1854. We have had a recent piece of work that we have undertaken in implementing the reforms of the Barclay report. I also recognise that, in these trying times, there is an ask from business from for stability. We have sought in the recently passed budget to meet the number one ask of businesses that were a freeze in the poundage. However, as I have discussed in the chamber before and in previous exchanges that I have had with Mr Johnson, I recognise that one of the central challenges with non-domestic rates is the reality that rateable value does not often or does not always align with the economic performance of an individual business. The question is then that I put two colleagues in all sincerity. It is a conversation that I am happy to have. If there is a desire to move on to a different system, what should that look like? Is this something that should be revenue neutral bearing in mind that non-domestic rates are forecast to raise some £3 billion for public expenditure this year? What do we mean by rebalancing? Those are some quite significant questions, but it is a conversation that I am happy to have and to engage in. I will take Mr Johnson and I will take Mr Simpson. I am very grateful. He is right to pose that challenge, but it is more than just individual businesses in the reflection of that. The fact is that retail, but some 10 per cent of the economy provides some 20 per cent of non-domestic rates. One of the things that the Government will need to accept—I think that we all need to accept—is that the static nature of non-domestic rates is probably a sign that it is not a functional levy. Would you agree with that insight? I think that Mr Johnson raises an important point, but I think that the specific issue arises from the fundamental way in which non-domestic rates operate as being a property tax. I will come to Mr Simpson. I am very grateful. Irrespective of what system we use, does the minister not accept that there have been real concerns from the retail sector about the Scottish Government not following England and Wales in introducing an enhanced rates relief for smaller shops? He could have done that. Does he not accept that? I am grateful to the member for his intervention. As he would recognise, budgets are ultimately about choices in weighing up the range of priorities. There is always opportunity cost. We have fully committed all of the consequentials that we have received as part of our budget process. It is the question that the Government poses to Opposition members that each and every budget is a desire to see increased funding in one budget line when it is incumbent upon members to identify where the corresponding decrease is and another budget line. The reality is that we provide an enhanced social contract in Scotland, which is not available in other parts of the UK. That is something that employees and people who live in our towns and towns centres benefit from. However, I reiterate my invitation and my willingness to engage with members on the question of non-domestic rates. The minister is always keen to engage. Does he accept that the report is trying to say that financially things seem to be skewed against businesses and town centres and skewed towards out-of-town, which has had a massive devastating impact on town centres? The member raises a point that was raised in the review of the town centre interaction plan, and that is the issue. The question would be in terms of what members are proposing. Is it to try to modify how non-domestic rates land through further relief or modifications, or is it to recognise that that is ultimately a feature of how the system operates as a tax in heritable land and property? Is it something that requires fundamental reform? That is a very deep question. It is not something that we are going to land at an answer on immediately, but we are dealing with a system of taxation that is now 170 years old. It is writing proper that it is notwithstanding the need to address the immediate concerns that business and the people that we represent face in the cost of living crisis. We ask ourselves that non-domestic rates, as a system, are appropriate, as we start to approach it, in the middle decades of this century. Is it something that is aligned with our ambitions around yes-town centres but also a just transition in net-zero? That is a conversation that we should be more open to having in Parliament collectively as this session progresses and hopefully can be able to land at a position ahead of the next election. As I say, my door is always open to having that conversation. I am conscious that time is running out. I just want to highlight that there are a number of points made about what more what more can Government do. Government does have an important role. That is why we provide significant capital investment through our place-based investment programme, our vacant and derelict land investment programme. That has been touched on by members. That can play such an important role both in remediating land and financing projects directly but also in creating stability, confidence and unlocking private sector investment. Fundamentally, all that work has to cohere. I have sought in my tenure to ensure that our retail strategy, our town centre action plan jointly published with COSLA, our national planning framework for, align with each other. Fundamentally, and I think most profoundly, the way in which we can influence change for our town centres in the long-term, not just beyond the immediate interventions that we make in the hidden now, is to rewire how our economies operate at the local and regional level, and community wealth-building can be key to delivering that. I now call on Colin Beattie to wind up on behalf of the economy and fair work committee up to 10 minutes, please, Mr Beattie. As the vice-convener of the economy and fair work committee, I am pleased to have the opportunity to close on this committee debate on the important subject of the retail and town centres in Scotland report. First, I thank the committee clerks and the many other Parliament staff who worked so hard to help to produce the report, and also those who gave their time to appear before the committee to give evidence or who submitted written evidence, not forgetting, of course, the committee members whose diligence and commitment ensured that a document of what I believe is real value was the end result. There was a substantial level of agreement in reaching conclusions, but also identifying key issues and, to an extent, solutions. I say to an extent in regard to solutions because the regeneration of our town centres is a complex exercise that will involve many stakeholders in order to achieve success. The debate this afternoon has been, I think, on the whole, a very positive one, and I think that it is interesting that so many of the members actually came forward with the same highlights, the same concerns and the same desires to achieve results in particular areas. I would touch on, firstly, the question of non-domestic rates, where Alec Rowley, Colin Smith, Michelle Thomson and the committee clerk Clare Baker mentioned the concerns about non-domestic rates. They have been a considerable discussion by the committee, and the cost imbalance between out-of-town development and town centre regeneration has been an issue. Should NDR be reduced in town centres and increased in out-of-town developments to encourage town centre regeneration, the committee did agree that the overarching principle must be rebalancing the cost of doing business in town centres versus out-of-town sites. A variety of options were considered and highlighted in the report, but generally NDR is perceived as inequitable and unfair. E-commerce, or, more correctly, the lack of it featured also substantially in the committee's discussions, and Jamie Hawker of Johnson and, again, Clare Baker highlighted that. I think that it came as a surprise to me and, I think, to the committee that Scottish business has only had a 4 per cent share by volume of UK E-commerce. The need to upskill and strengthen Scottish capabilities was well explored. The needs for training and support for particularly small businesses was identified. The committee noted that £100 million allocated by the Scottish Government to improve digital skills, capacity and capability was significant, but the committee was interested to find out how the Government intended to allocate those funds and how views on it being directed to provide support to businesses in order to develop omni-channel models. Accessibility to town centres featured quite highly as well. In today's discussions, Fiona Hyslop, Alex Rowley and Graham Simpson all mentioned various aspects of accessibility, be it by transport or the availability of car parking, the ability to walk around the streets and be able to access the shops and so on, which are so important for regenerating our town centres. The question of NPF4 was seen as a key driver in town-centred development, and while members had different views on whether a moratorium on out-of-town development in NPF4 is part of the solution, all members degraded at NPF4 must ensure that, for any developments, town centre sites must be fully evaluated to ensure that there is no adverse impact on town centres. The Scottish Government in its response affirmed its commitment to that principle, but concerns remain as to how that principle can be further strengthened by the Scottish Government. The question of absentee land owners, owners of properties, particularly properties that were decaying, properties that were in need of repair or derelict, was fully discussed by the committee as well. The Minister of Fiona Hyslop, Claire Baker, Colin Smyth, Gordon MacDonald and others have mentioned that as a particular concern. The committee took evidence that absentee land owners remain the problem in some towns and a hindrance to development of out-of-town centres. In some cases, identifying the beneficial owner can be difficult, especially if they live overseas. The committee looked at compulsory purchase orders as a means to deal with such buildings, especially when they were derelict or dangerous. The committee asked the Scottish Government to undertake wider research elsewhere to determine what the position is on beneficial ownership of commercial property and land. More clearly needs to be done in this barrier, but it was noted by the Scottish Government that the UK Government has launched a register that will require overseas entities buying or selling land and property across the UK to be registered. However, it is unclear at this time how that will be made available to local authorities, for example in Scotland. The committee had some sympathy for an online sales tax, which might level the feel between town centre businesses and competitors who have no bricks and mortar, but that was not seen as an easy option, and it would need to be carefully constructed to achieve its target. The UK Government is not proceeding with its proposed online sales tax, and the Scottish Government has undertaken to review the complexities involved, but it should be noted that given that business taxation is largely a reserved matter, any proposals would need to be negotiated with the UK Government. The principle that every town should have its development plan was widely accepted, while the Scottish Government explained that, through various mechanisms that have already existed, it is somewhat unclear how the various strands come together with the focus that the committee viewed the town centre development plan needs. The town centre development plans are seen as key. Each town is a unique entity, and there is no one-size-fits-all. Therefore, it is tremendously important that each entity has its own development plan. The committee noted that the three enterprise agencies, Scottish Enterprise, South of Scotland Enterprise and Tylons and Islands Enterprise, appear to have differing remits and focus for delivery, and there seems to be a gap in delivery of place-based support outwith HIE and SOSC. The Scottish Government advised that this support is in fact in place, but feedback indicates that it is not widely recognised. The one key element identified by the committee was the need for sustainability. This has been touched on by Maggie Chapman and the minister himself. Funds can be available to develop a particular project or regeneration, but it is necessary that the project be long-term sustainable within the community in which it is being developed. It would be unsatisfactory if long-term funding had to be provided to sustain the project if the community is unable to do so. That makes it even more important that local communities are part of such plans at an early stage to ensure that they meet local needs and that a viable business plan is in place. The small business bonus plan has removed more than 100,000 small businesses from playing NDR. Broadly, it has been a success. The Scottish Government notes that some reforms took place in the last budget to improve its progressive aspects, but more data is needed to better evaluate its impact. The concerns about the burden on businesses resulted in data collection not being carried out to the extent required. One of two other members made significant contributions. Colin Smyth made a very strong plug for Dumfries as a place to live in and enjoy. Alex Rowley appeared to be arguing that Cooper Fife was, in fact, the centre of the universe. Fiona Hyslop I have split loyalties. I am definitely a fan of all my West Lothian towns, but on the basis that three of the SNP speakers were brought up in air, I do think that air, as well as Cooper, deserves special mention in this debate. I could not possibly comment. In conclusion, the retail sector is a vital element in driving the regeneration of our town centres, although the need to consult extensively with local communities remains absolutely key. There is no one-size-fits-all. Each town and its communities are different. Each need is different. I believe that this has been recognised and accepted across the board. The committee looks forward to the finalised retail strategy delivery plan from the retail industry leadership group and to seeing the part that MPF4 will play in creating an environment where our town centres will prosper.