 Hi, this is your host of India and welcome to another episode of TFR. Let's talk and we are here at open source summit in Dublin And we have with us was again show Han chief of technical engineering committee of the Alisa project Sure, first of all, it's great to see you in person after a very long time. Yes Yes, it is good to see you last time. We did this remote. It's been Very very long. So first of all tell us, you know Coming I mean you have been to a lot of events before this only but you know if you look at this Event, you know, what have you seen so far from of course, you know, Alisa projects perspective This is the first time in almost two and a half years. We came together in some ways We just all alone I've seen some people that I have been interacting remotely for the last two years or so for the first time face to face That's been exciting and we also are doing a bath today at the end of the day at six o'clock Talking about open source and safety critical and safety Supporting safety critical applications using open source software and we also had a session on Monday I think when did you stay talking about Alisa specifically and answering questions? And then we are going right from here to Manchester for a workshop to talk about To talk about what we have done this past quarter and then said goals for the next quarter Talk a bit about what does it mean because when we use the term? Safety, you know, sometimes it gets bundled with security and other things also. So talk about, you know, what is the specific? Isco and limitation that you have put on this project. What does it mean? So Safety is different from security, right? In sometimes safety require a security requirement and safety requirement could be the same But sometimes it's not sometimes they are at odds with each other An example I can talk about is say you have You can adjust automatically adjust your seat position in a car, for example, and If you are allowed to do that While going 80 miles an hour That's not safe. So you want to distill out that feature That would be an example of a safety feature a Security feature would be Somebody won't get into your car or somebody will not change your seat position Accessing your remote credentials, for example on your car app Right. So that would be that would be security bridge So if you if I were to explain in layman, I mean tons that are easily understood That's one thing that comes to my mind. I you know, how you can differentiate the two so In one case it's safety because if you were to change your seat positions going 80 miles an hour if you Accidentally could do that using the software and that would Be a serious safety console Excellent, and then if somebody else can change it while you are driving You know get into your app and be able to change it somehow get you to get into get into your App and then be able to do that Hack into your then that will be a security bridge the same thing with that could happen because of two different reasons But it then it becomes a safety as well as security What is the once again mission or the scope of this project and then we'll also talk about you know What are the industries where you know, Alyssa project is playing a role, but let's start with the project itself So Alyssa is stands for enabling the Linux in safety critical Systems so what does that really mean what it means is that? We are looking to when we have safety standards various safety standards We have safety experts that know how what those safety standards are how to get Certification and all of those things right on this side. We have corner developers and color colonel experts and people that build Safety critical applications on top of Linux. That's the product space happening So Alyssa brings these two groups together to collaborate on making it easier for to deploy Safety critical applications on Linux That's really what it is. It's a collaboration and cooperation Platform well platform. I'm using platform in a different sense here Meaning collaboration place place of collaboration tool for these two right. It's not a code platform platform I'll bring people together. Yeah, when we talk about Safety critical applications What would be because we're saying and as you were giving example of car safety could mean Many different things could be the physical safety of an individual 50s safety of a Structure or it could be the safety of that system itself So which safety are we talking about here safety of the system in the sense that? Is it safe You can't separate safety of people from Safety of the system right you're riding a bike wheel comes up. That's a safety issue So you want to do a checklist and say make sure that it's built, right? So it's a checklist a Lot of the stuff is some of the standards that early standards are chocolates. So the calm the The challenge here is though Linux is an open-source software. It's developed with It's a different kind of software development process. That means we don't necessarily have design We don't follow this design Things we follow design, but not in the way. It's demonstrable Not in the way The safety expert want to see it demonstrable meaning you got the design you have done the design and you said Okay, code is done and based on the design and then you have tests done and you can prove and This is this is particular requirement here is implemented here And then there is a test here that makes sure this and you can pull so that's what safety experts look for So whereas Linux development process We have all of those elements in there, but they are not always easily Demonstrable so that is the challenge for at least let's talk about the The project in the sense of friend code side of Elisa project. Can you talk a bit about that? What does that side look like right? So we do not do code at Elisa. It's some what we are doing is we are defining We are providing resources tools and processes for system integrators to use to on their platforms to be able to provide evidences for Getting safety certification. So we are providing resources and the resources could be a process saying how do you? How do you go about? How do you figure out what your workload is using what? What is your what kind of system calls your workload is? Making on the Linux platform and we provide a process for how to find the footprint so that you can go and say So these are the system calls we are interested in because those are the system calls our workload uses and then how do we make sure those system calls continue to work the way we want them to work and then are they Are they doing it? Are they? Safe enough to be used in safety controls. Excellent. Let me talk about workloads Can you give example of either specific industries? You know our use cases where Elisa project is kind of helping them kind of improve their safety You know whole strategy and you know posture, right? So we have an automotive Telltale use case we are using as a generic Telltale to to look at and then figure out Probably all these processes and see if it's safe and this is mixed to criticality meaning you will have a the example of a mixed to criticality would be a Critical part of the one that helps the car to be driven say and the second part would be infotainment It's kind of a mixed to criticality application So we are looking at one of those as telltale use cases and in the medical space medical working group We are looking at open APS, which is It's a platform that runs on Raspberry Pi you have the Raspberry Pi you have the open APS running on it and you have the insulin pump and and a phone for controlling I mean what it is a you can control you can figure out user can use it to inject insulin and manage their needs for insulin and So we are looking at that Platform and we are looking doing STPA analysis on that to to We're evaluating that use case in within the context of safety within the context of And and we're doing that and then we are what one other thing we are doing is take the open APS and say what Are the Linux subsystems it requires and uses we are developing model We did a high-level analysis of that and we are drilling down into low-level and we just published a Process on the on Elisa github that looks at that looks at traces Using tools as trace and so on some of the Linux commands that traces generic workloads to figure out what system calls that workload is using and We hope to apply that process get open APS community to help us do the User process to trace and tell us so this gives us that this loop gives us Confidence that by doing that that's really exactly what we want what we hope system integrators will do On their platform. So using our process going and figuring out what? What their needs are what their requirements are on Linux kernel itself and what subsystems they are using and So on so they can figure out not just Linux subsystem. There is a platform on top user space on top Right, so they can figure out those things and figure out how they can Once they understand what their workload uses needs of their workload on the operating system And then they can go about and saying hey we can look at this smaller subset of whole Linux code and how to do safety I Also want to talk about good. I cover some company like building system management and all of other industries Which are you know where the people's life or a state without the failure of a system? So does that mean the Alisa project can you know or play a rule in you know those I mean if you look at this building lift You know elevator you know automotive wherever a person's life can be at a state because the failure of the system can lead to a Catastrophic disaster, you know fire could happen So what is the scope of this spring when you give example of automobile and that's a very well-understood case you but there are other Scopes also the project so the other one going going just joined and we are going to they are interested in launching the aerospace working So what we are really doing at Alisa is we are All of the different spaces that safety critical is Applications are being built aerospace medical And then automotive they all have challenges So we are providing Talk about the challenges and to learn from each other and so that's what Alisa is doing So we're opening up that up. We don't particularly necessarily know like when I say we I'm talking about The not all members of Alisa know All the details of the space that this Alisa I mean safety critical application space, right? They know their space. They know their challenges, but by coming together and talking about it We are going to be solving these challenges together so that we have We have a better outcome. Where do you see Alisa project? Where do you see it in your few years, you know, and if you can also give a kind of you know You did touch about two or three working groups there What are the areas where you see those working groups will grow or what are the area that you like? Hey, you are expecting, you know some working group in those areas. So automotive and medical That's what we have right now and aerospace is coming in What we are hoping to do is by expanding the problem space that we will Our the processes and resources that we provide Processes we develop will address the needs of all the players involved in this space So that's what I'm really excited about going joining and then bring wanting to kick off the aerospace So that's what we'll be doing Maybe next time we talk about it. Maybe we'll have more people coming in So Technology is pretty much part of our life now with we can't live without technology and we all use phones and Everything and phone is an example, but but so I'm hoping that we will we might have industrial Coming in we have been looking for that use case for a bit, but we have aerospace coming in So we might have Sure once again, thank you so much for taking time out and sit down with me and talk about that It's a project and also the scope of the project and you know potential new, you know working groups that may be there I hope they know in addition to aerospace really just be space also and then you know There are so many industries, you know, which will which have the potential you know for this So thanks for sharing all those insights and as we love to have you back on the show. Thank you