 I am JoLinda LeClaire, Director of Drug Prevention Policy for Vermont. I oversee the Governor's Opioid Coordination Council, which Governor Phil Scott established by Executive Order in January 2017. Since then, the Council has focused on its mission to improve Vermont's response to our opioid challenges through prevention, treatment, recovery, and enforcement. This crisis touches everyone in our state. Many Vermonters have family members and loved ones who have become addicted after receiving opioid prescriptions for pain. Others were exposed to opioids and other drugs through friends, dealers, and traffickers. Regardless of how they were exposed, we know we have among us many who now have the chronic isolating and too often deadly disease of addiction. We are making progress. Treatment is available across the state through Vermont's nationally known hub and spoke system of treatment. Recovery centers in our communities are providing effective wraparound support to help people achieve long-term recovery. Many communities are building prevention coalitions to provide our children and families the tools they need to be resilient in the face of life's challenges and traumas. Vermont law enforcement has steadily worked to increase community safety and to decrease the supply of illegal drugs. They also work hard to support prevention strategies that will reduce the demand for opioids. There is more we can do and must do to turn the curve on Vermont's opioid challenges. Drug prevention education is a top priority for schools and communities. Increasing intervention opportunities in emergency rooms and other places will help more people enter treatment and recovery. Individuals and families in recovery need support to obtain jobs and rebuild their lives and support for harm reduction through safe and appropriate use and disposal of drugs and syringes will increase safety in homes and communities. Something we all can do to take every opportunity to raise awareness and reduce stigma by talking about addiction. To highlight the science of addiction as well as the cultural, social and economic challenges associated with addiction, the producers and hosts of Vermont Cable Access and the Opioid Coordination Council have created an eight-part series entitled Understanding Vermont's Opioid Crisis Working Together to Create a More Resilient Community. The third in this series is about recovery and recovery coaching. In this segment, Host Ed Baker and his guests explore the process of recovery from opioid addiction. The Opioid Coordination Council's strategies highlight the need for a strong statewide network of recovery centers, recovery coaches and supports. These services are essential to Vermonters working toward long-term recovery and to their families and loved ones. Hi everybody, I'm Ed Baker. Welcome to the Addiction Recovery Channel, otherwise known as ARC. ARC is a channel, a public TV channel that is dedicated, devoted to providing information, accurate current information to the general public, focused on this brain disease that we call addiction or substance use disorder. The idea is that if the general public has accurate information, their response will be a ground swell and we see it today, a literal ground swell of compassion and inclusion for this particular population in Vermont, people suffering from substance use disorder. The ultimate goal is actually to save lives. So thank you, Jolinda, for your introduction. Today's focus, the focus of today's program, will be recovery strategies and recovery supports. And to that end, it's my pleasure to welcome Peter Espenshade, the Chief Executive Officer at the Vermont Alliance for our Mental Health and Addiction Recovery. Great to be here. Thank you, Ed. Thank you for being on the show, Peter. I really enjoy this work. Peter brings a distinguished history of academic and public service contributions. His first job in Vermont was as the Executive Director for the Lake Champlain Fund. Land Trust, yes. Lake Champlain Land Trust. Second job was as the Vice President at the Vermont Community Foundation. At the Vermont Community Foundation. He's presently held his current position at Vamhar since 2013. So, Peter, I guess the subject of today's show is recovery supports and recovery strategies, as outlined by Governor Scott's Council on the Opioid Epidemic. So, my first question to you is, you know, we hear this word recovery quite often, but what does it mean? What is it? What's the definition of it? Yeah, I think that, first off, I think you're right on. I think folks are really getting it culturally. What treatment is, what recovery is, how we can help folks heal from this health condition. So, the way I like to look at it is there's kind of two phases to one's substance use disorder. Is there is the acute phase where one is really suffering and where one may go into treatment at a residential or an outpatient treatment center. And then what happens after that? What happens after that if we are to be successful culturally and as a public health concern is we need to support folks who are coming out of that acute phase, out of that treatment phase and probably support them throughout their entire life. And that's recovery. Recovery is the long-term care, the love and supports that we give to individuals to stay clean and sober, to stay focused on their recovery. And it's really, it's one of my favorite parts of this work because it has the longest horizon and it's really the most heartfelt and the most positive. People recover and more and more people are going to recover the more we understand and bolster recovery supports. I understand that and that's a beautiful description. Thank you, Peter. So, just to build on that a little bit. So, a person breaks their arm and it's an acute medical incident. They go in for acute medical care. Their arm is set, maybe there's a cast, there's some pain medication, the cast is taken off after a few weeks, there's physical therapy and then they go back to business as usual and the episode is over. Not so with substance use disorder. No, it's not. And that it's a great question because it brings up one of my favorite analogies. You know, all of us are trying to understand what is the opioid epidemic? What is addiction? What is substance use disorder? And the analogy at least that I use in my own mind is the analogy of type 2 diabetes. It's substance use disorder is far more of a chronic condition the way type 2 diabetes is. So, one may have an acute phase in their struggles with type 2 diabetes. They may be hospitalized. They may be in some form of shock. They get that immediate treatment and then there is long-term maintenance of their health after that. And I think it's almost a direct analogy with substance use disorder is an individual has suffered from it. It can reach an acute phase. They then have the courage and the wherewithal and support to go into treatment. That's the analogy with the hospitalization with type 2 diabetes. And then just like with somebody with type 2 diabetes, they're only going to be successful with long-term, healthy, health-based maintenance and support moving forward. It's exactly the same thing. All right. So there's recovery and health over the entire lifespan. You bet. All right. Like a person with diabetes would have to maybe take insulin shots, watch their diet, do certain exercises, go in for periodic checkups. A person with substance use disorder and recovery would have to do certain behaviors and have to watch out for certain behaviors and obtain certain supports maybe throughout the course of their life. Absolutely. So there would be no relapse or if there were a relapse, it would be identified and dealt with immediately. You bet. And it's bingo. All right. And the same thing with type 2 diabetes is it's, you know, individuals will have better days, better years. They may slip back, move forward. And, you know, that community is wonderful in supporting them. And we're lucky in Vermont because we have a very supportive recovery community. Oh, yeah. And by that, I don't only mean folks like me, who happen to be an individual in recovery. I mean everybody, seemingly everyone that we run into throughout the state is cheering folks on. You know, I couldn't agree more. And that's for that groundswell of compassion. We literally saw it at the recovery walk in Burlington this summer, literally cheering people on. The general public was out there saying, yeah, go ahead, nice going, keep it up. And people in recovery were walking. There was no shame. There was all affirmation. It was beautiful. It was really beautiful. And I, you know, I know that in the very, very early days of Burlington's recovery walk, there would be a small number of individuals in recovery, really courageous, right? Sort of the trailblazers of our field. And they weren't jeered necessarily, but nobody was cheering them on or patting them on the back. A little suspicion there. Yeah, it was a little like, ah, right? Because it's simply because folks didn't know, right? I like, you know, maybe being optimistic about the potential for human nature. And I think folks didn't know. It's like, ah, I don't know what addiction is. It's a little weird. But folks are getting it. And you're right. When we walked down Church Street this year, strangers, shoppers, visitors, tourists were applauding folks in recovery saying, good for you. And that in many ways is sort of a little metaphor for recovery support. It's a community cheering us along. It's true. Less stigma, more compassion, more inclusion, less discrimination. Yep. You know, and thank you and what you do at the Recovery Coaching Institute. You know, I'd like to ask you now about something called pathways to recovery. What is meant by pathways to recovery? Are there many ways that someone can enter into recovery? Or is there just one set way that someone has to do? What are pathways to recovery? Oh, great question. Because I think it's really a parallel question to your earlier observation. Culturally, we in the United States and probably elsewhere, we only had one model of recovery. We only had one model that we knew worked and that we saw work with ourselves or our friends and our loved ones. And that model was what's called the 12 step approach. We were maybe familiar with that through Alcoholics Anonymous or Narcotics Anonymous. It's a great path to recovery based on the 12 steps. Started by two Vermonters, by the way, which is friggin' awesome. And we know that. And when I first got into recovery, I saw that my friends were using that as shorthand. They were saying, how's AA going? How are the 12 steps doing? Even though my path was something different. 12 step is an amazing path. It is the foundational path in recovery. What we've learned over the past, especially over the past 20 years, I would say, is that there are other paths that are equally effective, that are different. They may be complementary. They may be completely different. But all of these roads lead to the same summit, which is a healthy, supported lifestyle of recovery. And there's some really interesting paths that have been coming around lately and growing in popularity. So in other words, then, that if somebody has a unique path to recovery, that's as valid as the tried and true 12 step path. Someone comes into recovery through a church or through a relationship with a friend or maybe spontaneously enters into a path to recovery. This is as valued as what has historically been the tried and true path. Absolutely. So some of those paths that we see in Vermont that are very popular are the Buddhist path that is the fastest growing path in recovery. Wow. It's also known as refuge recovery. We've got some nice meetings throughout the state. There's a path called smart recovery, which is a simplified form of recovery that works really well. I mean simplified in the good sense of that term. Of course, the number of 12 step paths. There are faith-based paths in the Christian church and in other faiths. There are Medicaid and assisted paths where individuals continue to take different medications to help their recovery moving forward. What's interesting is not only the fact that there are so many paths that lead to the same summit, but that many folks are on multiple paths. Sometimes an individual will go to some AA meetings and then go to a Buddhist meeting and then work with their psychiatrist and then meet with friends or participate in a sober softball league or live in a sober house. There's not just one dogma because people are complicated. Yeah, that's beautiful. And that's that kind of multiple supports that I think is really the nicest part of all. To cast the widest net possible. Why not? Bringing as many people as possible. You know, why not? There's not one true way. There are many ways. And it's also not a perfect process, is it? God, no. Someone can go and there can be a recurrence of substance use or a lapse maybe for a month or a year or however long. And they're welcome back to the path that maybe that was part of their process. Maybe they had to learn that way. They're welcome back to the path when they're ready to come back. And there's supports out there to try to pull them back into the recovery path, correct? Absolutely. And I think that that is, you know, the onus is on us and the recovery community. I think that's the next level of public awareness that we're charged with getting out there is what we will call relapse or backsliding or taking a step back is often part of the process. And, you know, Mark Twain said, quitting smoking is the easiest thing in the world. I've done it hundreds of times, right? And I think anybody who's tried to quit something, some sort of addiction knows it's hard. But eventually through support, it sticks. And, you know, when you look at addiction as a brain disease, you realize the complexities of some of the impairments that actually occur in a person's brain and they just don't disappear. Sometimes they lag on and hold on and reappear and recovery, you know, takes an effort over time and people are just not perfect. Sometimes they'll move backwards and move forwards. How many of us haven't taken two steps back and three steps forward and one step back and two steps forward? And that's what compassion really is all about, to not approach people with any kind of judgmental attitude. And I think that I'd like you to talk about that a little bit about your recovery coach training, the Institute and how your coaches really are taught to not be judgmental. Yes. But to see people, you know, with value and meet them where they are. Talk about that a little bit. Great. So, you know, one second of background, we run the Recovery Coach Academy, which is a 40-hour training where we certify Vermont's recovery coaches. So, what is a recovery coach? A recovery coach will focus on really three things. So, the first to answer your question is recovery coaches believe in the principle that the opposite of addiction is connection. Nice. That the way folks, and there's some really good developing science around this. This is not just a nice thought. There is some good research being done around this. It's still a hypothesis, but there's a lot of truth to it. The opposite of addiction is connection. So, by connecting folks back to society, no matter where they are on their path to recovery, not by excluding them or punishing them or intervening or cutting off them from their family, but reengaging them, that act of human connection is one that really sparks long-term recovery. So much more appealing and attractive. And we used to have the model, as you know, not that long ago, and in the 90s, it was the dominant model, 80s and 90s, intervention. So, if you're suffering from substance use disorder, I'm going to cut you off. I could be your brother, and I'm going to say, if you don't get clean, I'm cutting you off. I'm going to intervene in your life. Tough love. Yeah, well, it's BS. Whereas, if we connect people, then we get those natural bonds, those naturally occurring opioids, that dopamine, that human healthy bonding for society and for the tribe and for family and partners that really works. I couldn't agree with you more. It's awesome stuff. And I think one of the other principles of recovery coaching is meeting the person where they are and not dictating a route, but more finding and helping the person to motivate to find their route, to find their path, and take activity in their path. And I think that's the second big pillar as I talk about this is, we'll say meeting people where they are, we'll talk about honoring the individual. And what does that mean? It means what you're talking about. Recovery coaches aren't there to preach a certain modality or a certain path to recovery. They're there to listen, to find out where an individual is out, and then to find the strengths that we can build on to keep them moving forward. All right. So now that's clear. Now, say, for instance, let me give you an hypothesis, a situation. Say, for instance, a person actively involved in addiction, injecting drugs every day, manages to find his or her way to a recovery center and sits down then with a recovery coach. Yep. Would that recovery coach then try to do therapy with that person or would they recognize the gravity of that person's situation and refer that person for medical attention with the understanding that they would then come back? What would the recovery coach's role be? Really good question. The recovery coach does only two things in essence, only two, and we recovery coaches, we are not counselors, we're not psychiatrists, we're not social workers, we are recovery coaches. What does that mean? Number one, it means we are extremely well-trained and we practice motivational interviewing. What does that mean? It means deep, deep listening. It means sitting with someone, not telling someone what to do, but just listening. We believe that listening is an act of love and listening is a clinically proven act of healing and that's what's called motivational interviewing. So if in your scenario an individual came in, I wouldn't prescribe and say here's what you're doing and here's what you need to do, no. The way we heal is by listening, that's number one. And we've got it's deep listening that requires training. Number two, the second thing we do is we offer resources in a way that's non-threatening to the individual. So if you came in in that scenario, if I were doing my coaching job poorly, I would say you're clearly using, you need to get into treatment. What's that going to do to you? Right, probably make me feel a little bit nervous. Are you going to ever come back? I'm not so sure. Probably not, right? I'm not so sure. Because mostly people are told what to do wherever they go, and they're told what to do mainly with a punitive tone to it and they don't respond well to that. No, how often are we listened to in life? How often are we really listened to? And at the Coaching Academy, one of our homework assignments is over the next night or week, feel what it feels like to be listened to and feel how warm and human and connected that is. That's why we say as a coach, stay in your lane and listen and then provide resources in a really thoughtful way. I'm really liking that. It's so good to have you explain this because I know a lot of the people of the general public, myself included, don't really understand the depth and the work that's gone into developing this role. How many recovery coaches would you say we have in Vermont right now? We've got about a hundred coaches currently actively working and volunteering. The Vermont Recovery Coaching Academy has trained a couple hundred folks with folks coming from California, from Kentucky, from other states. Wow, congratulations. From Vermont. Well, I think that we were one of the first trainings. We certainly were not the first. We were founded on the great work of the Connecticut Recovery Coach Academy, but we were one of the first and so other states would send their people to us and now we're solely focused on Vermont and training Vermont. Yeah, we do seem to be, Vermont does seem to be leaders in this field. We have so many, we have the hub and spoke program, we have Naloxone, we have recovery coaching. It's really something that this state here, us, we should really be proud of that. So where do you see your field going, the field of recovery coaching? Where do you think it's going? What's the immediate future of how this will roll out in Vermont? Yeah, so I think we are at a good phase now, and I think we have a lot of work to do moving forward. So I think we've got the training really well defined. We've got a clear evidence-based training that's appropriate for this field, that keeps our coaches in their lane doing good work, and there's no shortage of work to do in that lane. So now as recovery coaching grows more and more popular, we'll need to think about, well, what does that mean? Do we ever want to have billing codes for Medicaid? Right now we're certifying coaches. What does that mean? That means we're certifying that folks have completed the training and can abide by the basic rules of coaching. But we need to make sure we're getting continued education and re-certifying folks and taking the next level in this professional health field to help it grow and stay really strong. I mean, as a professional in the field, I was in private practice for over 30 years. I just can't tell you how encouraged I am by this. Because to me, we have a vulnerable population with brain disease that up until now has had inadequate supports to continue in health after they've achieved health from treatment. The recovery supports just weren't there. So you would have a population where a large percentage of them would complete treatment, come out of treatment, back to the community where there's cues and triggers and drugs available and lots of pressure to go back to that old way of life. And because of an absence of adequate supports, there was a high what we would call relapse rate. We would lose a lot of people that way. Now you have these same folks maybe coming out of residential treatment or coming out of psychotherapy with community supports in place, recovery coaching in place, which what you're saying theoretically will be available throughout the lifespan. So you have this whole population of people that are getting better that potentially will stay better. And if they don't, we'll get better again and stay better than that. And the other thing I see is that there's this encouragement to them to just give to continue to give back to the developing recovery community. Do you see that? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, there's just something. So many, many of our recovery coaches are what we call peers. And peer is a jargon for somebody who's in recovery themselves who has lived experience. And we've also got family members and allies out there. Peers want to give back because it's a way of sort of paying it forward. Somebody helped them. They want to help others. Family members can provide a real special empathy to other family members. Like what's it like? I would imagine. And we're getting a, you know, a small but increasing number of allies of folks who are just out in the community who feel this, who see this every day and say, what can I do to help? What can I do to sit down and listen and really care about what people are going through and then to provide some resources that might be helpful to this person? I feel so encouraged by you. You know, thank you. Thank you so much. And thank you, you and your institute, you know, the Vermont Alliance for Mental Health and Addiction Recovery and your Recovery Coaching Institute for the many contributions you've made. And I know for a fact that a lot of your training is provided free of charge. Absolutely, yes. So I encourage folks, we are adding trainings, given the nature of this public health issue. We're adding trainings, new trainings every week. Many of our trainings are selling out, but don't let that distract your viewers because they'll always be new ones for folks to come to. What a great thing that we have a demand of people who want to get trained in how to help. What better problem could the state have? Thank you, thank you. And I want to say that there'll be a slide going up now showing your contact information. So people who want to get in touch with Peter or the Vermont Alliance for Mental Health and Addiction Recovery, feel free to do that. I want to give you a few seconds to address the population out there with substance use disorder. If there are people out there right now watching that have substance use disorder, Peter, what would be your message to them? Is that, I think two things. Number one, people recover. And so many of the individuals I work with who've suffered from this, somewhere in their heart, they know that they're thinking someday about recovering. And it's a real message of hope, is that people do recover. And then number two, you don't need to do it alone. There are so many caring, non-judgmental, talented, cool, appropriate people who are there whenever you're ready, whenever you're ready to support your recovery. Because we miss you. We miss you. Thank you, Peter. Thank you. Really enjoyed this. And I just want to say to the viewers that the next segment of this show will have one of those people who care deeply about people approaching recovery and in recovery. Andrew Gagnier from the Vermont Friends of Recovery will be on to talk a little bit about recovery housing. So don't go away. Thank you. Welcome back to our show on recovery strategies and supports. It's my privilege today, my pleasure today to have as our guest Andrew Gagnier. Thank you for having me. I'm truly honored to be here. And it's wonderful that you also have this opportunity to be able to do this show. I think it's a beautiful thing. Thank you, Andrew. Andrew is the Director of Operations and Co-Founder along with David Regal of Vermont Foundations of Recovery. Andrew, I guess I'd like you to just jump right in and tell the viewing audience what V4 is all about. Well, I mean, our mission is to have a recovery home throughout the state of Vermont in every big county. We kind of have the same philosophy as CCV, you know, wherever you live in the state of Vermont, we want to make sure that within a half an hour, there's a recovery home. And so that's pretty much our mission. And thus far we're doing pretty good. Right now we have most of our locations in the Chittenden area, Burlington, South Burlington, and Essex Junction. And we also have a house in St. Albans, Vermont. We did have one in Waterbury for about four years. And then we decided to relocate to Barrie. So we're just looking for the right fit for us to move to Barrie. Waterbury was a great community, but a lot of our members had to travel for certain services. And a lot of people, when they're in early recovery and move into a recovery home, traveling is kind of a difficult thing. So we're always trying to make sure that we're close to like a bus line in recovery center, work, just everything that is in walking distance. Yeah, from what I can see about what you're doing, everything you do is with great sensitivity to people in early recovery. About how long have you been operating? I mean, that's incredible that you've expanded to that number of homes in how long a period of time? So we've been a nonprofit for five years. Five years, five years. I've been personally doing recovery homes for about 10 years, as long as David Regal as well, he's been doing it for about 10 years and we just happened to link up and decided we wanted to. We knew that we could only do as much as we could being individual people. So we decided to come together and become a nonprofit and see if we can expand the services that is much needed throughout the state of Vermont. Partnership. Partnership is what's needed and I think many of us in this state are seeing that now and there's so many wonderful partnerships that are developing all over the place. You know, what's the philosophy of a recovery home or a sober home? What underlies, what's the underlying principle? So there are a few different models out there, but one of the things that we really try to promote is a family-like atmosphere and safety. So we're really concerned about the safety of the house as a whole and creating an environment where, you know, that it's a family community. We do a lot of, or we try to do a lot of community-based things outside of the house with, whether it's different agencies or whether it's, you know, the recovery center, but somehow trying to give back to the community. And I think extensive support services are in place for all your residents. I mean, it speaks to the nature of addiction that in the beginning of a person's path to recovery, they're most vulnerable. And I think your services really speak directly to that. Research over the course of addiction work has shown that there's a high rate of what we call recurrence of substance use in early recovery. Is your program designed to guard against that, to help people to achieve abstinence and begin that road to recovery in a strong way? Yeah, we try to create that as much as possible. We definitely use outside, you know, we try to stick to what our mission is, right? And our mission really is just to create a safe and sober living environment for the individual to recreate their lives. So we don't provide, like, counseling at the house and things like that. We do provide a lot of peer-to-peer work. We do have house mentors. But we partner with other, you know, agencies out there so that way they are getting those things. I think some of the things that we run into is, you know, it's really important that the whole house is safe. So we always have to keep that in mind. So if an individual, you know, might have had a slip, we, depending on the situation, we may have to get them to, you know, go to a detox or a rehab if they, you know, want to continue that path. Which can, you know, relapses, you know, you get this sense of real shame and guilt when you relapse and to, you know, move them out of that safe place and to another place can be very challenging. But we try to do our best to facilitate that in the safest way possible. I see that, and I see that your program is very sensitive to people in early recovery. I noticed that one of the safeguards, if I'm not mistaken, one of the safeguards is a, I think it's a mandate or a very strong requirement that the person would engage in some type of recovery support activity every day, daily. Is that true? Yeah, we, the first 30 days is pretty strict. You know, our goal is, is in the first 30 days is get them in whatever recovery path that is for them and that they're pursuing that recovery path, whether it be, you know, self-help groups, 12-state based or whether it be like an IOP, intensive outpatient. You know, we encourage counseling, recovery coaches. We try to provide as much information on all the different ways of, of to recovery as possible. And then it's kind of on them to pursue that. And so in the first 30 days, they are required to go and seek out recovery every day. Yeah, and again, again, it's, I think well informed by, you know, the theory of addiction as a brain disease, that in the beginning, the brain is impaired. It needs time to heal. And in those first days or months, the more support the better, the more motivation that the person can borrow from others around them, the better. Where, where did this idea come from, Andrew, if you don't mind me asking? When, when did you envision, first envision this? Well, for me, I struggled with, you know, alcoholism and drug addiction. And it led me to being incarcerated myself. So I was incarcerated for three years and towards the end of my stay, you know, I did a lot of, even prior to going to jail, I did a lot of changing and seeking a different way of life. So when I was incarcerated, I was already on that path of seeking a different way of life. So in my process of doing that towards the end of my stay, you know, my, you know, my higher power put on my heart to, that's, you know, something needed to be done when I was incarcerated. There were tons of people that kept coming back and most of, you know, probably 80% of people incarcerated suffer from this illness. And one of the things that I saw the same thing of was, you know, people would do really well when they're in there because it's really structured. And yes, you can get stuff, but you can also not get stuff, you know, a little bit easier. Many, many drugs. Yes, drugs, yep. And so when people would leave, they would kind of go back right to the same exact place where they left. So no matter how much growth you might have done inside, it's really hard to go back to the exact same living environment and then think you're going to, you know, fight it off. Absolutely. So that it was put on my heart to create something that might be able to change that. That's beautiful. So, like a calling. Yeah. And from what I understand, this is, it's your life's work. It's what you're dedicating yourself to. Yeah, as soon as I, you know, I was fortunate enough to get up my high school diploma in jail and I was fortunate enough to work in the career resource center with Ronnie Plukis and, you know, had access to things and I was able to kind of, you know, create my vision. And then about six months I was out of jail. I met with DOC and, you know, wanted the Department of Corrections and give them kind of my ideas and, you know, they said, you know, you should start a nonprofit. And so I'd just done three years in jail and I've only been out for six months and it was like, I don't even know how to tie my shoes most of the time. So to, I didn't even know what a nonprofit viewing it was. So I kind of put that on the back burner and found a different way to kind of get started. So, yeah. What a journey, huh? Yeah, it's a beautiful thing. You know, and from where I sit, I see so many stories like your own and like mine. So many people who journey from a life characterized by all the behaviors that become necessary because of addiction. Achieve recovery and go on to just give back and get so much of a reward out of giving back. Thank you. Thank you for your creativity and for your dedication. For the viewing audience, I will have Andrew back toward the end of the year for a full show so we can dig a little deeper into what you're about and what your program is about. We'll run a slide now on how to get in touch with Andrew or people from Vermont Foundation of Recovery. And I just want to thank you, Andrew, for being on the show. Thanks for having me. For this section of our show on recovery strategies and supports, it's my honor to have Gary DeCarolis, executive director of the Turning Point Center of Chittenden County and Kelly Rear, the coordinator for the New Moms program. Gary comes to us after being president of the Center for Community Leadership. He also has experience in child mental health and experience in city government, I believe. That's great. Thank you for being here, Gary. Thank you, Kelly. Great to be here. I guess I'd like to just jump right in, Gary. Can you tell us a little bit about the Chittenden Turning Point and what makes it special? What makes it work? Well, thank you for asking that question. We pride ourselves in being a very heartfelt recovery center. It's a peer-run recovery center. We have over 3,000 guest visits a month in our center. We're open seven days a week, about 84 hours a week, every day of the year. Our job, one, is to create a safe and drug-free environment for people in recovery. We know that about 65 percent of our guests are in their first year of recovery, which is a very fragile, special time for someone. Issues of housing, employment, trauma are very large and looming for everyone. And also, they've been beaten up spiritually, physically, in any way you want to talk about it. So we want to make sure when they walk through our door, they're greeted with a warm hello and offered all that we offer in the center. One of the things that we do offer everyone is having a recovery peer support specialist meet them. That's someone that's in recovery, themselves, that's job is to work the floor and make sure that they connect with everybody and see how they're doing in the recovery and what can we do to help support them. And maybe it's listening to them about the day or what's going on in their life. Maybe it's referring them to a different community agency to get some services they might need. And so we also know that many of our guests are also dealing with depression, anxiety issues, and so they come in with a lot. And we want to make sure that we can help unpackage that somehow for them and know that they're special and unique and that if they can hang in there in their recovery and grow that with our support, there's a good life ahead for them. Wow. That is so encouraging and so refreshing to hear that kind of sensitivity, especially for this population that is so misunderstood. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for that. And the fact that you're open so many hours a week, 365 days a year, that is incredible. How many volunteers do you have? Well, you asked the right question because we couldn't do that without our volunteer corps. We've got between 25 and 30 volunteers. These are all people in recovery, themselves. They have to have 60 days of sobriety to be a volunteer. We train them up and they volunteer anywhere from four to 20 hours a week, which allows us to have that kind of support throughout the week and throughout the year. We couldn't do it without them. So you have volunteers and then I think you also have a recovery coaching. We have a very vibrant team of recovery coaches, about a dozen. And they cover all the ages, the gender issues. Their own history is unique to themselves and the way we work it here is someone who wants a more intimate one-on-one relationship with someone. We have a recovery coach supervisor, Ken Johnson. And his job is to match the person who wants a coach with one of our 12 coaches and begin that relationship. And that can go on for as long as the two of them think it's purposeful. And that can be that relationship, that special recovery coaching relationship. That is many times in addition to the person maybe having a sponsor. And also a therapist and other people that might be also supportive. And the coaches reflect our vision that there's no one path to recovery, but there's an infinite number of paths. And so helping that person find their path and having that coach support that, whatever that might look like for them, is not only what the center believes in, but it's what our recovery coaches are trained in helping support. So along those lines, like finding your path to recovery, if a person comes into the chit and turning point and has been through trauma and is a little maybe not too social. So they would be allowed to come into the center and just kind of sit around and be part of the community, but just feel it out until they achieve some level of comfort? Yes. And in fact, many times, if I, if you use the analogy of a flower that hasn't bloomed yet, people will come in, they'll find a little corner for them to sit, grab, they'll grab a cup of coffee and sometimes they just sit literally for days. And then I'll watch them over time and they make a little connection. Of course, our peer support specialists will have nudged their way into their life a little bit. And then you can see the slow opening up. We have a couple of recovery, I mean employment consultants and they might find their way over there too and see if they need any help with a resume or trying to deal with employment issues or housing might be another big issue on their plate. They have computers in the center that they can use for these things as well. And over time, you see them open up a little bit more, a little bit more, then they might want to become a volunteer themselves after a couple of months. And then that's a whole cadre of people that support each other on top of all the other stuff that we've got going on. And then comes the big day when they maybe venture out for that first employment interview. And we've got someone there that's going to be looking forward to hearing how it went when they come back. And these things build on and build on. And you can see in a good three, four, five month period of time a transformation take place. They have hope, which they might not have had when they walked through the door. They have a sense of self that they might not have had when they first walked in. They might have gotten involved with our yoga program or meditation or a number of things that we offer. We have over 250 meetings a month in our center of all sorts. And so you can see they're engaging with life again. That's what happens after a period of time. Yeah, it's quite a wonderful thing. Beautifully put, hope, a sense of self and engaging with life again. And people need a safe place if they haven't been doing that. Yes, if we didn't have that, none of this other stuff would take place. And that's important. So Kelly, I noticed when Gary was, I think he called it nujing, nujing the flower. The flower. I noticed that you had that resonated with you, that flower beginning to open up. What is it that you were feeling about that? That was my experience in the center. I have long term recovery and I have a 12 step foundation, but I didn't spend a whole lot of time at the recovery center. And once I was nudged in by my clinician to try hanging out up there and seeing what was going on, she was hearing good things. I decided to go up and talk to Gary and really found a great community there. I felt safe. I felt like I was around people who understood me without me needing to explain a thing. It gave me more confidence than I had found throughout all of the work that I had done in recovery. Gary has really created a warm, welcoming, safe atmosphere of recovery up there at the center. And I just felt at home very quickly. That's beautiful. And I'm sorry, Gary. When she first volunteered there within a couple of weeks, we had her singing. She was quite the singer. And we didn't know that when she first walked in. There's over her and our Michael, one of our peer support people, really hit it off with music. And it was a lot of fun. That was a fun day. It's something that is beautiful to see, that person that's hidden. Absolutely. Behind the consequences of addiction. Behind there that is that person that is sometimes so frightened to show themselves. Exactly. And I think, Kelly, that one of the things that Gary mentioned was when there's that moment when people begin to give back. Is that what you experienced as a visitor? That eventually there was that moment where you began to give back? Well, just stepping in and wanting to volunteer was an opportunity to do that. In early recovery, whatever program you choose to start living a sober life, they encourage some sort of service. And there's a reason for that. That's a part of the engagement and being a part of the recovery community. And what you start to see happen is the more you engage and try to connect with other people in recovery, it's a win-win. You're sharing your experiences. You're sharing what's worked with you, what hasn't. You're finding out that people actually like you for who you are. You don't have to go in and act like something you're not. And your confidence in living this sober life starts building. And it was a beautiful way that metaphor that you have with the flower blooming. So that's really what happens the more you engage and give back and either do service or start doing some peer-to-peer. Even if you're not volunteering to do that in the center, you start finding yourself doing that because you're connecting more with the people that you're seeing every day who are living healthier lifestyles. Very well put. And where do you think that first part comes from, that part where you characterized it as being understood without having had to explain yourself? That sounds so fascinating to me. But it's also so simple. I mean, when we're coming out of addiction and trying to be healthier, we often are trying to understand ourselves again. That brain disease that you mentioned, we're not seeing things as clearly but we're trying. And for me, my experience was I didn't understand how addiction had changed me. I was still me. But I had gone through such a traumatic experience just within my addiction because that was so different from who my core person is to be able to be in a safe place where you know that you don't need to worry about triggers and things like that because scary's created such a safe environment up there. I had the opportunity to build on who I was now. Nice. Beautiful. And that's safe environment, Carrie. I mean, I really think that's so pivotal to everything that you have managed to place the prime value on safety. And that somehow has become the norm, the expectation. So any kind of behavior outside that is easily recognized. Right. Yeah. And then with that, though, because there are people that come in, especially in wintertime when they want a warm place, cup of coffee, but they're really not in recovery. So we just don't say, you know, you have to leave here. But what can we do to help you get to recovery? Do you want to go to a treatment program? Do you want to go to the detox center up on Pearl Street? If you want that kind of help, we're there to help you. If not, then we would ask them to leave because it does trigger the rest of the... Of course, of course. The other thing, though, going back to your point about what Kelly and not having to explain herself is that everyone in the center, whether they're volunteers, recovery coaches, staff, peer support specialists, people who lead our yoga program, they're all people in recovery. So they all know where people are starting. At some level. We have people with years of recovery, we have people with hours of recovery. So that you don't have to deal with. You just can be yourself and know that there's an identification there and support. And then we go from there. Leave the shame outside because there's no need for that here. I mean, you are a human being and with a lot of gifts and potential, and we want to know about those things. Such a wonderful and important message. You know, and Kelly, I wanted to give you some time because I know that you're the coordinator of the New Moms program at the Chittenden Turning Point. Speak about that for a little bit. What is the New Moms program? Well, it's a grant that was received last year through the Department of Health, Maternal Child, Health Division, and ADAP is the second half of the grant. And they did a survey of need in the community for recovery. And moms were identified as needing more support to try to achieve long-term recovery. So I myself in recovery was at the Lund Center. And they did a really good job of helping me in the beginning of my recovery. And what was great was I could have my child with me, have two children, but they allow to age five to be there with you while you're working in your recovery. And what's difficult about the Lund Center is the transition after. So you graduate the residential treatment, and then you're out in the community. And what do you do if you haven't had the opportunity to either build support within your community or whatever program you're working on outside. And it's very limited the amount of time that you spend in the community to do this. So what was identified was that transitional kind of support group for moms who are transitioning out of treatment with their children into the community. So that transition then would be a heightened risk for the recurrence of substance use. I was seeing that more and more. We just had Andrew Gagnon, and it was that same transition. And there's a transition without support. Then there's the chance of recurrence of substance use. What a beautiful place to create a program for moms and their children. How many moms have you had come to your program so far? Well, since we began the support groups, we started with two days a week, and they're two hour walk-in groups. It's not a start to finish. I present a subject of something that I've dealt with in my own experience being out in the community. And just speak to the women a little bit of my experience and then they start talking about their struggles and what's going on. And the beautiful thing is we've been able to create in our center a safe spot where the women can come with their children if need be. We have a little play area. We have a changing area for moms. We have an area that we can create a quiet space for them to nurse if they're still nursing their infants. And the numbers have been terrific. I mean, a need was clearly met. There are so many women who are consistently participating and we doubled our support group numbers for the new moms program in the first three months. And I was just completely overwhelmed by the response. Congratulations. Congratulations to you both and to the other volunteers at the center. I mean, some would say that that particular population, the most vulnerable of the vulnerable are the children. Of people with this brain disease that we call addiction. And others would say that in the support that you give moms, it's really a prevention program for the children. You want to just speak to that a little bit, yeah. In my own experience having two children and being a mom in recovery, I was fortunate enough to find the willingness to ask and use the support. I find a lot of women are very reluctant to use the supports that are out there because they're afraid they've had DCF involvement. They're very paranoid that there's going to be consequences. And so I try to do the nudge with the women to show them how it's helped me in my experience by using these supports. I'm very passionate about the ACEs coming into Vermont. And adverse childhood experiences. Absolutely. Because I've seen what my addiction has done and caused trauma to my own children. And I can look back on that and I can point out the supports that were helpful and the things that we're still struggling with. Because this recovery is an everyday thing. It is, it is an everyday thing. And the children into it. And you've got a full load of recovery all day long. And along with the resilience theory and adverse childhood experiences, we know now that one consistent caring committed adult in a child's life is enough to teach them resilience. And I'm sure that with your program, you're kind of multiplying that one times two times 10. And it's a wonderful, it's a wonderful thing to see how effort can really go so far. And the more I have guests on the show, the more my schedule for the year gets filled up. Because I really, I would like to have you come back on the show again at some point in the future and really take a deeper look into both the turning point of Chittenden County and also the New Moms program and whatever other programs. Yeah, we have a wonderful new program of peer support specialists being in the emergency department at the hospital. Which is there again is that transition. Yeah, exactly. Sure. Exactly. So you have a coach in the emergency room? Yep. Yep. Beautiful. 24-7 coverage we'll have. So if someone is in there for something related to their addiction, some crisis, we'll have someone there that's had that experience and can be there to support them. All right. All right. Well, thank you. Thank you. And to the viewing public, continue to tune in for this series based on the governor's four pillars of doing something about this opioid crisis that we face in Vermont. Treatment, recovery, prevention and law enforcement. Thank you. And we'll see you next time. Thank you. Okay. Thank you, guys. Okay.