 Thank you for staying with us. You're still watching The Breakfast on Plus TV Africa and right now it's time for a hot topic. We're talking about how over 80% of Nigeria's crude oil has been stolen and that is being said by the former president, Olushegun Abbasanja. He made this statement saying that over 80% of Nigeria's crude oil has been stolen and joining us to just review this and talk about it in depth is Joe Femi Danguru. He's a public policy analyst and yeah that's who we're going to be having today. Good morning sir, thank you for joining us. Okay so former president Olushegun Abbasanja came out to say that over 80% and that is quite a large number of Nigeria's crude oil has been stolen so whatever we're working with right now is about 20%. I want to know your thoughts on this statement. Basically sometimes I just feel that why is it that when our leaders want to leave their position of leadership it seems their eyes are becoming or their eyes become so clear to see a lot of things. The general chief Olushegun Abbasanja was there as a military leader. He was there as a civilian president so he should know a lot about this and so he won't take it for granted. I what he has just said is not important. It's quite important to have this figure but my concern and my thought has always been when they were there or when he was there what was his effort? What was that effort mean to cut the still in the meeting and everything I was doing because it's not just now you know so there should have been a kind of intelligence report to the president outside there and he should have been able to wade into some of those things but you know they should tell us what they did. He should have said look I know this thing when I was there and this are the actions I took and these are the actions I should be taking and make suggestions. It is not just enough to tell us that look this is what it's been stolen and yes who we then what do we do? How have we been battling the theft? So those are the things that we should be hearing. I'm not just making all this open and kind of comment. Yes it's good to know that it's been stolen since the years maybe how many years it has been stolen. What have we done? What should we do? But now we are seeing the president the new president President of the military with the efforts of the military with the efforts of other good citizens and consultants and people who are you know pursuing or trying making you know fantastic effort to cut this theft. So that is the way we should be talking about. How do we cut the theft? So how do we improve on what we have? How do we sell those things legitimately to the benefit of the citizens of Nigeria? I think that is what is important that is what the people want to hear. They are fed up of hearing 80 percent stolen, 70 percent stolen. They are fed up of all this figure. They want to see these things being sold appropriately and the money coming back to Nigeria it through the right channels so that the NNPCL would declare exact amount that has been sold, exact amount that has come into the government cover and then we begin to see the reality. That is what is important to the masses and not just the figure of what has been stolen and what is sold and not. So it talks about NNPCL coming out to you know let us know but even the World Bank has accused NNPCL of not being transparent in their numbers. Do you think that's going to happen because at this point obviously there's a trust deficit where we don't even know whatever is going on. We don't know anything in regards to how much crude we produce, how much is being sold for, nothing whatsoever. Do you think for them to be able to say okay this crude oil is not being stolen and we can account for it? Is that where the NNPCL starts to bring some form of transparency to the masses? There should be transparency in all what the government is doing and what the government will do. You know it's not just the World Bank that has told us this just like the President of Barcelona said it. A lot of our leaders they know they are aware of some of these things and they are finding words. It's just you know when we look at Aramco, we at some point I think we said Aramco was interested in their partnership with us. You see the transparency in all these other places you know but the phone is this or it's not the phone the reality is this that when we have a company that is now a limited ability company or possibly in the nearest future to be a public official company not declaring their assets, not declaring their profits. We do not know how money is being made or made, how money is being spent and you know we don't have the accurate figures of all these things. And for years so now we have a President who said let us figure it out, let us do it right. I think that is the most important thing now. We should figure it out. We should do the right thing. Enough of all these big companies, enough of all these political maneuvers. Let's begin to do the right thing. Let us call clean and say this is what and what we are selling and this is what we are making out of it and this is what we have done with the money. Unless we begin to do things right, unless we begin to approach the system correctly we cannot go to places and be saying we want investors to come. We are not transparent with some of this. This is the major source of our income and we should get it carefully and we should get it very well and that is what we should do. So now that we have a new board of NNPC in place, let us know their mandates and let it be open. Let NNPC say these are these and these are these are what we have. Let us have investors relations program that they'll be able to say this is what until we begin to have that. This should be displayed on their website. Everything should be transparent. Technology should be brought into this system wherever we know when is this taking away, where it is at that moment and these are things that are so simple and we should be able to do it right. Okay. I think I mean I love the fact that you've said we should be transparent but let's look at the root cause of the matter. We've seen this happen over time for years. You know they've always come out to say Nigeria's crude oil is being stolen, Nigeria's crude oil is being stolen but why is this so persistent? Why is it that no administration comes in and puts an end to this? And also is this a security issue or is it maybe a poverty issue for instance? People are so poor and they feel like the only way for them to be able to scale up is by stealing Nigeria's crude oil. So what do you think is the root cause of the matter? Look at it this way. We can't just be blaming everything on poverty it's just our mindset. Most of the people or some of the people that are being caught at some of these illegal finance you see they if you call them broke guys okay fine or you know low-end people yes we're at the people behind the scene. How many people have been sent to Nigeria? How many people have been prosecuted? You know it is not just you know women also those ones that you see that have been you know arrested and there are people behind it that we we kind of see you know I don't know much about that terrain but I look at it that this behind them have you seen any you know any you think these guys that have been arrested are the ones telling this do you think they have a network for the contact? No so it's beyond what we are seeing and that is why sometimes it's quite difficult because it's a network I mean such networks are highly you know connected somehow so you can say security issue but now that I believe this government or president what I mentioned is serious about it much more we are seeing efforts the Nigerian Navy we have the Tantia or something I forgot that name correctly now that's Genema who has the contract to monitor and to you know possibly arrest the people who are handed over to the police or to the Navy. We see a lot of activities going on now unlike before so let us see how you know sometimes you just have to wait and see how each government performs and that is why I'm looking at these words that we're seeing now but until we get to do grass fruit of it to the root cause of this then the root cause we know the root cause is because of few individuals they want to be richer they want to be wealthier and they think that is the only way crime will always be committed one way or the other all over the world but it is for the government to put things in place to put a lot of you know laws in place that we that we guide and that would take care of those things so if you try to beat them this way they go the other way that is it and that is why we have to be consistent that that's why we have to be proactive and it is you know it's itself for all of us to be concerned and to be able to do things right. So staying on the transparency issue and you said crime will always you know happen do you think that the reason why the federal government and the NNPCO is in coming out to say what exactly the numbers are is because of you know them wanting to perpetuate crime as well so it is for corrupt reasons do you think that? Well you see I don't want to guess I don't want to speculate why am I a musician we do one thing or not do another thing for me it's let us encourage them let us tell them this is what the people want and let them do it I think the people who are there they know it the new chairman of the board of retroven NPC is a gentleman that has worked all his years on the industry he knows what transparency is all about Shifaki Ellura is somebody that you know I know as well that's so we believe with him at the helm so about fear right now we should be able to give a good guideline and to guide the the the board and the entire organization to do the right thing and good enough he was immobile when the the president was appointed apparently and he worked together with him so they know what it is I haven't worked with such an intentional organization and seen what the number so let's hope by this one we bring a new idea you know into the whole system and it's just that annually like every other company we do they declare their asset they declare profit and loss you know they just come out clean with an audited account annually this is supposed to be supposed to be quarterly reports monthly reports you know so these are simple things that you respect them to do so we watch and see if things we change really less a few months and begin to understand it and if not I think we can still discuss it further then okay a few weeks ago I had an interview with you and we spoke extensively about the parliamentary system of government and I remember you saying you do not care whether it was parliamentary elementary whatever it is as long as we have like a better and thriving economy and a better Nigeria but do you think that if we switching into a parliamentary system of government can help combat this issue of all theft I'll tell me again that it's about people it is the system no matter how good how creative how good how superior system is people we are created people so it is the people as the conscience of the people you know it is not because we are operating uh parliamentary system or we are doing presentation or whatever system will be operate the system is as good as the people operating it you know you can buy the best car if you don't know how to drive a car you have collision with the car you have a terrible accident with the car and all that we save you if you don't buy it so it is not just buying the brand new car it is not buying the most expensive car that matters you have to know how to drive the car you have to have a license to drive in a lot of this goes into that so it is not about just having the parliamentary system the people we're driving so who are the people again the election there will be campaign how do people source the money for the election campaign and uh a lot of all these things will come up again firms will be sold by the parties and if one person is buying a form of hundred million how do we control that you know so a lot of all these things will happen the people will go into the parliament I mean if you have the policies now in place you have the laws in place you have the oversight policies in place so what stops the same people from you know doing their job so it is not the system for if we are talking about the low cost and whatever the people so until when we have people who are conscious of these people who are you know sincere about bringing Nigeria forward about moving this country forward about going there to serve are not going there to be selfish now we have in most cases it's selfishness it's a personal grandeur small it is where people don't think about humanity it is where people think about me myself and I so we have to begin to look into that it is the people for goodness sake it is the system can be any system but the people who drive the system that is what matters and by the way this is not I believe every every four years you see people coming about this idea of constitutional reports and doing wrong thing or the other I mean people are getting fed up this is not the right time to even bring this out now in my opinion because people are thinking the masses are thinking of how to feed themselves how to feed their children how to send themselves their children to school let us look at this important agenda as Nigeria citizens and let us begin to see which one is in look now we don't have steady electricity let's focus on that let's monitor that let's achieve that we don't have you know food the president declared in August last year he declared a state of emergency on the food insecurity what happened between August and December and January I mean we have people in this country we have people in the ministry the president has seen it and said look you know something might happen let's do now let us really help us get up since that we have named to work we have gotten the order to proceed and to do the right thing then I am a family a world bank they said in October last year I said the things we happen this way so who are those people not doing their job well is not a system people we have to do their job well people we have to be committed you know if we say look we are going to bring in loans for students to have the loans why can't we work it out and make it work these are things that we should do we have enough right now to do so that as soon we don't go astray and the minimum which we can resolve that issue you know there are things of our hands right now you know we shouldn't bring things that we just confuse the people and people are not interested ask anybody on the street whether that is their concern right now you know that is not a concern I think that is just for the elite who want to you know begin to have you know meetings here and there and you know possibly traveling to Abu Dhabi to do things people don't really I think majority of the people on the street they don't really care about this now they just want to see how to live well in this country yeah I would agree with you because no matter what you're going to call it if you're saying parliamentary presidential whatever it is it's just on paper it's still the makeup of the people who go there and if they're doing their jobs right but like I said there's a prevalence of this over time in Nigeria where you've seen oil theft now I want to know do you think this has impacted our economy because now you're talking about how people just want to live well and just feed their bellies because that's like the major thing at the moment we're talking about food in food shortage and food supply and people really don't have food people can barely feed people can barely make ends meet now do you think this oil theft has impacted our economy like over time I mean sure this is glaring it's glaring that is what I'm saying people are aware of this previous government was aware of it it is not real to anybody calling into the government and that is why it takes guts the guts of every leader to you know to just fight it head on and say look I'm going to put a stop today so and I think that is what's important you know the audacity to say listen uh this cannot continue you know so which I think this government you know sometimes I just want us to begin to you know give people the chance of you know let's see how far he can go with it we are seeing efforts being made you know you know areas of our economy and sometimes this you know the central bank comes with policy the policy might not be good enough for them they will want to find a way to adjust or to modify then you know so I think in one of these things that we have seen in the past have you know they really messed up their economy thank god we are not in recession right now but you see when you talk about economy it's a global issue nobody call me right now uh it's it's it's diving in a way you see a couple of other developed nations they're having in the sessions they're having problem they're having crisis from us in Europe by protesting and a lot of all this is you know but the point is that they always find a solution to it quickly within you know they don't just go about begging and ask the people oh come on help us we have a problem oh come on they find the solution within themselves and they resolve the issue within themselves because they don't want to make themselves laughing starts and they believe they are competent enough to solve the problem of their country and this is where African leaders should begin to you know look in words and let us everything you have issues you go about as okay oh he please help me and all that yes you can ask for help no doubt about that but what are the issues what are the solutions we can find locally and how are we tackling this solution sincerely you know because if we say give us money give us idea give us this and we take the money if the money is not being utilized for what it's supposed to be for if the contracts are being inflated you know a lot of things come up and it is not the like before the global community sees what is going on that's why we talk about transparency because you cannot continue to do things the way you've been doing it before you know and you have citizen journalism you have a lot of things that people with us expose some of these things so we have to be very careful so for me the economy has been in bashing for a long time to call the you know for a long time before now rather so and if it's not that they will still be in this day you know don't do on me before for a long time so because we have to be going to find out we continue to see technology we come with good result people have to drive this technology we have to invest in the right technology we have to invest in the right educational programs so all of this is if we are to set up new universities what are these universities going to come up with you know so we want to set up more universities we have to be able to think of funding them and if they're private universities we have to think of how will the people have the money to fund them you see so a lot of all these things we shouldn't just be talking about problems problems and problems let us begin to find solutions local solution national solutions it is not the government that controls the states the state budgets their own money their employees are they doing it right in the states are they doing it right in the local government let's not forget the fact that these people are part of our system and until when we begin to monitor them accordingly until when we begin to look into what they're doing properly so it is not just only the federal government in the states and the local government they are part of this system and we have to look into it and you see when we want to give money to the so-called poor people how to we don't have a good data to say this one we go with 75 000 25 000 whatever we want to give let us have a good data and that is why we have the social security we have the social benefits in all this country is with data you see it is not enough for someone to say some millions were stolen in my bedroom in my bed house why do you take them so much money to your bedroom in government house in the first instance so anybody reading that that is not in Nigeria will just laugh and say look at how this people are wasting money so these are things that there are simple things that all many people will just ask you why what is going on in that country I mean these are the things we have to begin to look at and then you look at the money you know now netflix is here a lot of all these organizations show their company and they are here making use of our local talents our local talents are bringing hundreds of millions and billions into the economy so let us talk more into this local economy and let us think of how to do things to export if we don't begin to export to generate foreign exchange how do we hope to have more foreign exchange in this country so the problem is what we know what an ordinary person knows and if you ask when we are setting up this economic committee economic council and whatever let us put ordinary people sometimes let us put them in in here let ordinary people that will say it wrong that will say the street you know the way the street we understand it let them share their opinion let them share their thoughts about some of these things I know it's good to have professors to have doctors to have business and rules here and there but let us have ordinary people you know let us hear their opinions as well because sometimes most of these people don't go to the market they don't see what you see what I see until we begin to understand that and then they have the feedbacks that they want to hear people tell them what to hear what what they want to see so let us begin to engage the common man put it that way in all the systems as well which is not just the so-called big guys that have to sit down and know and decide let's involve the common man on the street into some of these things I think that is clear clear what's true yeah okay I mean I like what you said about you know starting from the local government because at the end of the day they're all part of the system and we need to look into the grassroots a lot of times we blame the federal government saying the government is not working the government is not working but then how do you engage you know your local government chairmans how do you engage your councilors how do you engage your state governor even before you move it up to the ministers and then the president but I like what you've said about everything let's stay on the crux of the matter which is the oil theft now what are some long-term solutions you think you know can be introduced to ensure that we reduce it significantly or even eliminate the fact that you know a lot of our oil our crude oil is being stolen and as the case might be for my president of messenger said over 80 percent of our crude oil has been stolen so what are some long-term solutions or policies that you even think the government can introduce to ensure that this you know doesn't happen again and we just combat it and eliminate it totally I think this is sometimes the way our parents have been laid here and there uh we don't they're just open to some of these uh pipeline first we have to use technology to come to combat some of these things and we have to get the people as well you know everything is about the people where these things are best only people see them and who are the people still in western they are not gross they are citizens of this country in Konaigawa with some other people so when we begin to look at the technology we can have a technology to monitor the both things and once it's been properly monitored it will be easier to detect where these things have been stolen how it's been taken away I mean you can't just you know take a badge in ship mode of her out of this country without anybody seeing it let's let's be candid with some of these things so let us be very very uh helpful to this country and let us begin to approach issues with uh you know with the mindset of this is my country it is a country that I want everything good I want good for this country or to begin to get into that because most people say what is my business Nigeria is not good for me but once we live in this country and we understand this country and we understand we appreciate living in this country it is them most of these things will become uh easier to manage and to monitor this is what is going on where people around the world uh in some of this developed country they just appreciate their country they know this is our country the Americans appreciate their country maybe the Germans appreciate the Germany all these people so until we begin to speak well but to make people just speak well about their country when they discover that somebody has stolen the oil and then it comes back and then becomes a big man in the society you think the people don't know that they knew them but they can't see anything they can't talk about it so until we begin to make people make them you know let us feel it just the good part of it we have to be passionate about this we have to talk you know to the mindset of the people that look this is your country and before you can say that they want to see you do what you preach that is what is it you want to see you do what you preach and that is what is important you know our churches have to be part of it our most have to be part of it yes we want to go to heaven but you know people will tell you yes I want to go to heaven yes but I have to enjoy what God has given me God has given us these we are not buying it from anywhere it is right here with us it's a gift and we have to let everybody partake in this gift it is for just one person it is for the the whole Nigeria so if you are looking at it from the from the religious dimension from whatever dimension you want to look at it it's a gift from God and God knows what he has given us so let us not begin to you know damage this country for every poor that is turning is a damage to the society it's a damage to the yet unborn citizen we shouldn't be in debt like this and we should be able to see ourselves as you know brothers keeper it is what you know for one man to just build a mansion it is not just one man for us to have about 20 cars or putting in for whatever proof and just one man in the community and the rest community the rest of the community are suffering and they are begging for rise that is not what it should be we should be a brothers keeper let us practice what we preach we just put it on our bed every day and showing class that is not what Nigeria should be we are good people and let us remain good people unless we take it to the grassroots unless we take it to the primary school to the nursery school because you can be a shock when you see even children primary school nursery school condemning their country i'm telling you that i want to go out of this country a child a five-year-old that is what he hears that is what they discuss that's the new nigerian dream you know and let us begin to do the right thing it is not what a parliamentary element whatever i said it again it is the people who practice and the people are us we nigeria you and i and every other people are there that is hearing this but i will say what is he saying the politicians are not hearing yes what we make them hearing we go to the constituency offices and we begin to drop letters we begin to make that feeling and we begin to bombard their telephones and to say look i want to see you i want you to change this narrative when we begin to do that the citizens have a role to play and once we play this role it is not just strike of a day or two that cannot you won't send any signal to them because they know after two days we need to go back to face the reality so doing these strikes and whatever may not really have until when we begin to do a one-on-one discussion with them a one-on-one agitation with them for them to understand it even as a strike they're just standing in their house and they won't go anywhere and they're enjoying their house there's electricity for them 24 so they don't have the problems you and i have so that is not touching them you know so we have to find a way to make sure they understand what we are talking about don't allow people to steal our food or because if you know those who are stealing this food and don't say anything let the law takes its course just like the nabda kuman said it you know people who are bringing all right some drugs or fake drugs into this country what is it you find them just maybe 50 000 and the man has made 500 million what is 50 000 let us review those kind of laws let us bring him up just say we want to change the system we're going to that is not the main issue right now okay sir let us monitor it let us do what is right and let us contribute for goodness sake enough of all this talk talk talk we know what is right let us just begin to do it all right easy i think that's a very good way to end we know what is right let us do what is right and i love the fact that you highlighted the fact that um our natural resources are a gift from god and all Nigerians should be a particular of this gift not a select few so we want to say thank you for coming and just sharing your thoughts with us thank you so much sir i appreciate you thank you all right we'll be speaking to joe femi dangora he's a public policy analyst and we'll be talking about how um about 80 percent of nigeria's crude oil has been stolen and that was being said by the former president olu shagun or basundar we'll go on a short break when we return and we'll be talking about the businesses and the clampdown um on them trying to find how to move across or move above the forex crisis that we are on right now please stay with us