 So hello everyone, welcome to another deep adaptation Q&A with me, Jim Vendell. And my guest today, who we're going to have an hour with, is Reverend Michael Dowd. And I just want to say a few things about Michael, many of you probably know him because of his output in this area. But he has a background as a liberal Protestant minister. Reverend Michael Dowd is now known as a post doom pastor, and that's a concept that we're going to delve into in the next hour together. Michael is a prolific producer of video presentations and sermons on aspects of collapse of modern societies, as well as creating I think probably the biggest catalog of interviews with people who work on in this field. I think he also provides a really great service to the public through reading a range of literature both old and new, making available on SoundCloud I've certainly benefited from his work in that way. And he does it all with a clear relish for intellectual insight and free thinking that I think manages to offset some of the heaviness of the material that he's covering. And this topic, we know it's emotionally difficult, not just the topic but also the way people can respond to us when we talk about it with others I'll talk about it publicly. So I think Michael's very way of being in relation to this global predicament we're in. It reminds me of the, the kind of uplift of energy and sense of freedom that you can get freedom from previous preoccupations. So there's this sense of post doom, no gloom that the Michael embodies extremely well. And so we're going to hear about some of the basis for that as well as just experience some of that with Michael today. Thank you for joining us. Thank you, Jim. It's a great privilege and delight to always speak with you but to speak with you in this context is great. Yeah, it's good to finally, finally have you on. I think I've produced about 36 or 37 Q&A videos on collapse topics and you've done around 90 I think, is that right? Yeah, just about 89, 80, 90 something like that. I think Sam Mitchell is probably ahead of me. He's done a lot. Okay, right. So I want to look at your particular take on this. And when we titled this session together. The concept of religious failure. So I want to dive straight in with that. So how do you see societal collapse, ecocide and possible human extinction as to do with religious failure. I think that'd be really important to hear immediately. Sure. Well, where I go into that most deeply is my very latest video which I think was titled collapse, ecocide and likely NTHG as religious failure. It's about 40 minutes long. And just the nutshell is, and I really build on the scholarship of, as you know, William Catten, William O'Folls, but especially Teddy Goldsmith, Edward Goldsmith was the founder and the editor of the Ecologist magazine for almost 40 years. And his magnum opus is the way an ecological worldview. But in 1978 he wrote a book called the stable society, which at that time and really his book the way that they both do this which is they took a look at, he takes a look at the last five or 600 years of anthropological evidence and says, okay, what's our best historic and scientific understanding of the difference between genuinely sustainable cultures cultures that can live in place without destroying the place for practically countless generations, certainly many generations, and those cultures that reliably predictably always go into the overshoot collapse, overshoot collapse pattern. And so he basically defines religion actually as the control mechanism of stable sustainable cultures. And what he means by mechanism is simply that aspect of society that speaks with moral authority that the future will not be compromised by the present. And so that sense that the fundamental sacred role of what gets called religion in the West or in, you know, civilizations, but really could be seen as life ways indigenous life ways is that aspect of culture that not only ensures that the future will not be compromised by the present but ensures on certain basic fundamentals like what I'm calling. And this is difficult because the word God has become so trivialized it's become so otherworldly supernatural unnatural that to even use the word is confusing for people. And so what I'm speaking about is that religion by not by having a concept of God that doesn't include our biophysical creator sustainer and cosmos, the biosphere, what you know the living world, by not including our biophysical creator sustainer in its concept of God, we're left with a God that either can be believed in or disbelieved rather than a God that's inescapable I mean you don't believe in the biosphere you know but but we need to live in right relationship to the biosphere or we perish just like every other creature. So, religion in traditional stable sustainable societies goldsmith identified is that moral that moral voice within culture that insists on God first that is life first or biosphere first, you know, the living world, the living as a greater than thou, not a lesser it. Once you step into thinking of the living world, not as a community akin, you know that the as Daniel Wildcat says, we are surrounded by relatives, not resources. Once we begin to think of the living world as merely resources, you know, for us and a place for a waste. We've already stepped into an ecocital trajectory that's guaranteed to go through the boom, the rise and fall boom and bust cycle. So, what I say by religious failure is just that that basically religion has not been fulfilling its evolutionary role or its ecological role and it's understandable because the religions the great religions of the last say four 5000 years have all emerged in cultures that were totally unsustainable. So it's not like they were going to be able to hold the economic and political establishment. You know, to any kind of moral, you know, guaranteeing of the integrity the biosphere and that sort of thing so that's what I mean by that. So there's, yeah, so that's really helpful there so understanding religion as a, as a as a moral framework, and if you have a religion which doesn't have life itself as central and seen as sacred understood as sacred, then all manner of abuse, kind of rise from that. It won't even be seen as abuse. That's the thing it won't even be seen as abuse. It's not seen that way at all. Yeah, yeah, exactly seen as progress. Exactly. And so a couple of big words in relation to this are anthropocentrism and desacralization the desacralization of natures. I know you've you've done a video where you've talked about anthropocentrism as the root cause of pretty much all facets of what's going wrong in contemporary societies. And then you've, you're going a bit deeper on that topic now as well and you took the use the phrase of being God blind but with the way that you write God. Could you say something further about that. Sure, sure. Thanks, Jim. Yeah, human centeredness where we where we prioritize human wealth human well being the wealth of corporations the wealth of kings the wealth of emperors the gross domestic product, or GDP or GNP. When that is our measure of wealth and well being rather than how well is the soil doing decade by decade how well are the forests doing decade by decade how well the other species doing by decade by that. And that's what the eco centric or life centered what measure of wealth well being success and again that's what all, you know, sustainable cultures had which is a life centered, rather than human centered understanding. When I say God blind G earth emoji D what I mean is simply or and biosphere death is that we don't treat the biosphere as if it's got. We treat the ecosphere as if it is our genuinely, which it is our bio physical creator, sustainer and end, it is that that's a fact that's not a belief. But if we don't treat the living world as that, as kin as a greater thou not a lesser it then we just think that progress is about taking from the living world, making stuff out of it, selling it, it goes to the waist heap and we call that in fact the faster that happens, the more we think that we're in progress. So progress is utterly delusional because it interprets the word progress in human centered rather than life centered ways. So my understanding might be off here but that you actually previously believed what you've just described for some decades, and it was part of you being a religious naturalist and into sort of conscious evolution and the idea that being an epic of evolution that humans are part of, possibly even at the pinnacle of. And so, so you've retained some of the philosophy but also ditched quite a quite a bit of it as well as you've realized just how bad the damage that we've done to the biosphere has become. Could you say something about that shift that you've undergone. Thanks. Thanks for that. So yes, since 1988 in 1988 I was introduced to the work of Joanna Macy. Thomas Barry Brian swim. Matthew Fox Sally McFaig Dwayne Elgin. I mean just a lot of people who are really into the epic of evolution, the universe story. And yes, Connie and I have been involved in the epic of evolution or big history or the universe story of for decades in fact our main website is the great story.org and what we mean by the great story is the story that includes all stories, all religious and secular stories. It's our modern day our first and only globally produced evidence based creation story. One of the challenges that it's been mostly interpreted in human centered ways and I interpreted that way. Really only I mean I think I had a deeply ecological bio regional permaculture sort of worldview, until around 2000 and I read several books in the round the year 2000 that put me on a human centered unidirectional understanding of evolution, and a much more utopian understanding, you know from the caves to now to the stars was my worldview from from about 2000 to I think December 3 2012. And then in fully getting not just climate change but abrupt climate change you know 10,000 years of climate change and half of human lifetime that rocked me out of that kind of anthropocentric or human centered interpretation of the big picture of the universe story. And so the last eight or nine years I've been as you mentioned recording books and posts related to the rise and fall of civilization related related to ecological overshoot. And not just ecological overshoot but also cultural and psychological overshoot there's limits to human nature. There's limits to our human nature as individuals and as groups and we can overshoot those limits as well so we may not have time to get into that basically yes. I think that interpreting the epic of evolution or universe story or even that just have just evolution itself in human centered ways is always going to dilute us because we're going to not recognize that. So, we're not the center of the universe know our form of consciousness is not more advanced in fact it's more problematic, because we tend to treat our biophysical creator sustain and what I'm calling God G earth emoji D as merely an it to be exploited and so. Yeah, so that's, that's a massive change. I mean, I do know quite a lot of people who are who are very reverent towards the biosphere and very critical of current societies and, and, and yet also think that it what we need to do is get back to a truth of why humans are on earth and and therefore do see us as somehow advancing consciousness in the universe. And so there is still that sense of progress and getting somewhere as a species. And what you've just said is that now that's still a bit anthropocentric and it's a it's kind of still retaining some ideas which are at root cause of all the mayhem. Yeah, exactly. I mean, John Michael Greer in one of his books talks about, you know, that when you're when you're pressed up against a brick wall you've driven down a blind alley your press your car is pressed up against brick wall. It doesn't help to read the engine or to hope for some techno miracle the only way to progress is to back up. And Robin Wall Kimmer speaks about the seventh fire going back and getting the gifts from a previous times. I'm all about people falling in love with life with the biosphere with with the cosmos as as a thou as a being. I'm all about that but not to transform things where it's way way way too late and that's why I think the greatest gift that we can give young people all people of all ages is the recognition that yes we are living with plenty of uncertainties, but there are a few things that are absolutely 99.9% certain and if we don't acknowledge those, we're going to be caught in the hope fear hope fear hope fear dialectic that just creates more suffering and paradoxically has us support and cheerlead policies that actually do more ecological damage, thinking that we're doing the right thing. So you've mentioned a couple of things there, which I think are important to go deeper on but before I do that I just want to say to everyone who's joined and very pleased to see quite a lot of people have joined. And if you'd like to ask a question for Reverend Michael Dowd, then please send it to Stuart, you'll see that it says questions, Stuart questions. And then I'll come to you in about about 1010 minutes or so and then we'll get to hear more voices. Also, please indicate to Stuart whether you're okay to be on YouTube and please have your camera on. So, Michael, you've. Yeah, you've mentioned a couple of things one is your, your real certainty of how society, what human societies face, and also the benefit, including benefit for younger generations of recognizing that reality sooner. I want to, I want to delve into those two things because there's a lot of objection in society to that, to both of those things first is to say, No, it's absolutely not too late to stop a catastrophic damage to human modern consumer society. And, and many people in the climate movement will say that for example and perhaps they're just too focused only on climate when they arrive at that no it's not too late argument. So, and then I want to go a little bit more into, yeah, how it is actually perhaps acting in solidarity with younger generations or how you can be in solidarity with younger generations from your conclusion, rather than somehow letting them down and not to think about the future that they've got to live into. But first, why are you so convinced. The last nine years, the main things I've been studying and I mean 2030 40 sometimes 50 hours a week, and often recording the books that I've been reading have been things like the rise and fall of literally doesn't scores of civilizations over the last 8,000 years. And what are the common patterns on the way up and what are the common patterns on the way down. And, and then also things like abrupt climate change where you've got run away feedback loops tipping points that that the media will absolutely and the IPCC and academics and New York Times bestselling authors will continue to speak as if these tipping points are still in the future, but we ran over that dog 20 years ago it's it's already in the past. So, from that the recognition the first thing that I can say with 100% certain is that most people will not accept anything else I say, after this denial is so ingrained so so absolutely healthy in terms of the mechanism of denial why we can't accept and find repulsive certain ways of thinking about the future that that that mean bad things for us from our loved ones or that mean difficulties are ahead or whatever so I want to honor that that what I'm about to say, most people including a lot of the people on this call are going to say no doubts crazy, and be okay with that that's that's that's 100% certainty is that most people will not be able to accept how and why our civilization is collapsing and why it's collapsing in an already like we're already decades into it. Inevitable collapse isn't inevitable, it's already well underway biosphere collapses a couple hundred years underway civilization collapse the collapse of the stability of the policy and these are already in the past. But I'm also clear that the only way to have joy in times of global hospice in times of contraction in times of inevitable collapse the only way to truly have joy is to truly be in the place of acceptance. I mean collapse awareness can be hell, but collapse acceptance brings as you just mentioned benefits there are certain benefits that are only possible with full collapse acceptance. And the possibility we don't know if it's an inevitability or not. I mean we do know that extinction is inevitability but near term. Who knows, but certainly a very real possibility and so being aware of that and then living out of that extinction I mean somebody gave me a t shirt. Like I'm wearing it I'm not going to show it but it says to walkie the end of the world as we know it with the earth. And I sometimes when people see me wearing that they'll say what's that tea what's tea to walkie and I say oh it's it's an indigenous term. It means that things are spiraling down it's going to get it's going to get worse but just find ways to be a contribution to others you'll be okay. And really for young people to fight and fight and fight as if solar panels and wind turbines and green new deals and energy transitions and all that is even possible is to fail to understand the main drivers of collapse and which are technology progress development human centeredness these are things that drive it. So that's why I'm so passionate about inviting people of all ages but especially young people to accept what's inevitable, and then live out of this passionate energy to make as big a difference at whatever scale you can make a difference but not from the place of in order to. I go the in order to use because chances are pretty good really good like well over 6070% that there's just nothing I would say well over 90% there's nothing we can do slow stop or reverse. What is at this scale which is the collapse of the ecosphere the collapse of the biosphere the collapse of industrial, what William cat and calls homo colossus, but there's tremendous amount that we can do locally to be a blessing to our communities, our neighbors our friends our family, and and have tremendous joy in that process, even in the midst of collapse even if you're going to starve next week. There's a way to live with generosity and humility and integrity that allows you to experience what could be called joy in your final week, and that's that's what the whole post doom, no glooms approach trying to be about. So, you've you've described it very well there thank you and. And also with a real real your conviction is comes across really, really, really well and it's also a very unusual message in the climate movement and the environmental movement at present. The criticism has been is that when when people hear the people like yourself or found a more peaceful, creative, kind, enthusiastic collapse accepting way of being in the world. And they are wondering whether it is being counterproductive because it's it's it's encouraging people not to do much on either grand political projects, or even considering any geo engineering or even considering any bold mitigation, as you mentioned renewable energy. And so they think that well, if there is a chance of a less bad future for young people. Then we shouldn't just write that off. And therefore, it's kind of like a yes and rather than no and, and, and that criticism also carries quite a strong sort of sense of moral solidarity with younger generations and, and the argument well, who are we as older people, perhaps who are more focused on our final week. Like who are we to decide that for them and turn people off political activism to try and cut carbon or draw down carbon. And so I just want to hear a bit more on that because it is something that's often put by critics of those who are collapse accepting. Sure. I can, I'm no longer trying to convince people to not be involved in anything, whatever their heart leads them to engage in is like I am just a big heart and full throated okay go for it, follow your heart. I'm now at the place of seeing myself as a big picture cartographer, I sort of describe the map. Here's where people are here's what people are trying to do here the authors doing this and whatever. I'm happy to share my sense but the clearest sense that I can say is that most people still think that climate is our issue, and it's not climate change as Richard Heimberg regularly says, climate change is not our biggest problem. It's overshoot ecological overshoot, and there are a dozen other things that are extinction level that are beyond they often include climate change and abrupt quantities but they're bigger than that. But, again, if somebody hasn't been exposed, if they haven't read William Catten's overshoot, for example, or Teddy Goldsmith or William Ophuls or some of these. You know, yes I get the white guys but many times we white guys have caused so much of the problems was not a surprise that some of us are at least trying to do what we can to you know remedy or repent or whatever at least understand. If somebody doesn't have a historical and ecological understanding say for example why and how civilizations collapse and why never have we seen people not get out of denial never in any previous collapse civilization. Does everybody wake up and get it it just doesn't happen it can't happen. So understanding that then allows me to say okay if someone wants to pursue with great passion whatever it is that they want to pursue with great passion go for it. Just know that the likelihood of you experiencing tremendous angst anguish suffering in the not too distant future when you see that your hopes. One of my one of my dearest colleagues Meg Wheatley I think she's on this call is offering something soon on. We need to talk about hope. We need to think of hope as a good thing. And it's there's a reason why hope was actually considered in the box Pandora's box of curses, you know we think it's a good thing but no it finds us in this so If Connie uses an analogy like an arm, like if you're up here and you still believe that it's possible to transform the system, whether through technology or energy transit or whatever, you're going to resent people down here that are saying no it's just too late for that. And so I know that people will resent me for being in this place of collapse acceptance and collapse not just collapse acceptance collapse trust that it that it now couldn't be otherwise because of reinforcing feedbacks that are already so unstoppable that things will continue to get worse. But the, there's a couple of things that comes to mind there one is. So when my deep adaptation paper came out and took off. I was surprised that quite a lot of people were responding to that by deciding to quit their jobs and become full time activists, and they joined extinction rebellion, which was very focused at the time, publicly, even though privately a lot of people will focus on the adaptation or resilience or the emotional psychological side. Some of this more post doom stuff, but publicly it was very focused on carbon cuts emissions reductions, and being bold on that. And I felt that I, I couldn't turn away from that. I thought well, they, you know, and my speech at the opening of the rebellion was saying, you know, we're we're protesting not because we believe in a fairy tale future where we fix climate but activism on mitigation is part of a broader response to waking up to the predicament and it is well if there's any chance of a slightly less bad future, we need to try. And, and in that sense I was not talking about preserving societies as we experienced them today. I was hoping that, yeah, the hope is there. And so it is a wish it is wishful thinking but not detached from then analysis and action. So a kind of hope that there might be some kind of future for some people after the collapse of the regime of societies, and that. Yeah, I felt like well, supporting that, even though, as you say, you can get really into that in ways which can add to your angst, where you end up living in a constant sense of struggle and disappointment. And so there's a real, there is a real issue there and Deborah Zarko Deborah Zarko has talked about it about well, a lot of activism can be a form of distraction a form of avoiding extremely difficult emotions about how things are and are going to be. So, for me, I'm, I've still tried to be both. So both, both activism on mitigation but also this this broader agenda, and I appreciate that a lot of people think well that's, that's maybe not where the most energy now needs to be and I realize you've got to that that point where you said I mean so in your opinion what what is most important and urgent to do. You know if people were fed up with their XR activism on mitigation. What's most urgent and important for them to do now. Yeah, that's a great question Jim. I would like, of all to recognize that the I no longer say we must do anything, or we need to do anything. I have completely rejected the notion of the, what I call the almighty we that there is a we and any meaningful sense that has agency over the things that are literally already completely out of our control. For example, the idea that we can still lessen emissions is to completely understand that the boreal forests. Liberia and Canada are already carbon sources are not carbon sinks as is the Amazon that the force of the world are already in what could be called the great configuration they're going to keep burning and burning bigger and stronger and more intense every year. The bleaching of the coral reefs and on and on I'm not going to do a whole litany of the bad news but suffice it to say that if every human being died tonight in our sleep. So the question then becomes for me how do I be with that in ways that still allow me to pass the mirror test because we all have to pass the mirror test we have to look at ourselves in the mirror and feel like we're not bad or evil or whatever and so that's where making the individual lifestyle choices becoming vegan or flying less or not flying at all driving less or not driving at all etc. These are all things that aren't going to save the world but they're going to help save your soul maybe knows they're going to help you pass the mirror test are going to help you feel good about yourself. The same thing with activism being engaged in any form I like to call it love and action because it's not so much desperate activism based on sort of like in order to or fear it's like oh things are spiraling. That's unstoppable and I need to be active to be able to pass the mirror test and more than that. Because that's what gives my life joy is contributing to others other species as my wife Connie is trying to assist trees and migrating faster than any other animal or whatever so to come back to the question what do I invite people to do is to be to recognize first of all to recognize that climate is in our issue overshoot is and and and its its extinction level at multiple levels, certain things are already in runway mode, and so do the grief work the heart work the sadness work to be with that and then just find every possible way that you can to be a compassionate generous contribution to your community because that's what's going to give you joy. That's what's going to make a difference and that's what's going to probably be the thing that does whatever passes through this bottleneck. It may be your compost in the backyard you may make it possible for certain microbes or worms to pass through this model that wouldn't otherwise all participate in the regenerative dynamics of planet Earth and do what we can to resist evil. And what I mean by evil is that which diminishes or destroys or degrades ecological integrity social coherence and personal wholeness. So, I don't, I do think it's possible to have a less bad future, but good and bad are defined as ecological integrity, social coherence, and personal wholeness. So anything you do to enrich or enhance or support or further ecological integrity social coherence and personal wholeness is good and I think that as things collapse. For example, we're not going to see an entire generation of young men being addicted to internet porn and internet gaming it's not going to happen when their communities need them. We're about to come to questions from our the group of people who've joined us today. But first, I want to say ask you something specifically about where you're getting to talking about evil. I was wondering how do you understand aspects of your Christian faith or the Christian faith or the gospel that you think are especially helpful or important or in light of what we've covered in light of your ecological and evolutionary worldview and the beliefs that you have that we're in could be called the end times to use to use the religious framing. Yeah, wow, great question. Okay, so let me shift gears in a nutshell. I became a religious naturalist in 1988 when I was introduced to Thomas Barry's work, the whole universe story or Epic of Evolution. I found that I continued to find great value in religious and spiritual traditions including my own Christianity, but I had also drunk deeply at Taoism and Buddhism and certainly indigenous forms of spirituality or but I no longer interpreted and I no longer interpret now any of the mythic concepts of my tradition as otherworldly or supernatural I interpret them as saying something poetic about this one reality in which we live and move and have our being. That is our biophysical creator sustainer and spiritual creator sustainer and so I, I find that now the religious traditions I think are needed more than ever, not to transform the system that ain't going to happen, but to help us all to collapse with integrity to collapse with generosity to contract and possibly even go extinct with love with kindness with humility and I and I believe that this is a time of to use religious language that virtually everybody in this call is going to say repentance to repent is to simply say I was wrong, we were wrong. We thought this we were going this direction we now see that was actually harmful. And so I'm now choosing this direction or to think this way or to act this way so that kind of repentance and supporting us in being kind and generous and compassionate with each other. In the contracting process we need our religious traditions more than ever it seems to me and spiritual traditions and spiritual practices. And what I found quite powerful is that where you've got to is from this collapse acceptance place and the message you're bringing is, there's actually one that has been brought before about what's in your heart and to return to love and to live from the heart Yeah, that's really good to hear we're going to go to questions now for now we'll go to Gary. Gary Hoover, could you switch on your video and your audio and ask a question. Sure. Yeah, I would like to hear more about psychological overshoot in particular I'm wondering, is this both an individual and collective phenomenon but maybe just say more about what you think psychological overshoot is. Yeah, yeah thanks for the question and I can almost hear Connie cheering you in the background because that really she and I have been talking about this just in the last few days. And it was originally her concept she said what about psychological overshoot why aren't you giving attention to that and I'm like, Wow, that's powerful I hadn't thought about it so. As I understand it or I'm thinking about it now and this is very new is that there are limits to human nature individually and collectively there's limits to what is possible for humans in groups and limits to pop what's possible as humans and because our instincts which are just as strong as any animals instincts evolved to serve us in healthy tribal cultures in groups of 150 or less they're ecologically you know that are that attend to ecological integrity social coherence and personal as a top priorities. So our instincts evolved but now we're living in these anonymous societies technologically driven we don't know how to communicate we don't know how to deal with the fact that there are so many even organizations that have no understanding of evolution are all too using evolutionary drivers and mechanisms and hooks to get us addicted to this that are the other thing. So that's what I mean psychological overshoot is when we've overshoot overshot the caring capacity. Use that language but the grace limits of human nature individually and collectively such that we now experience more and more problems as a result of technology, energy, societal complexity and so forth. So we think that overshoot primarily has to do with the huge technological culture we're in, or do we go into overshoot, when we begin to consider extinction, like near term immediate human extinction, does that put us into a kind of overshoot that we're not designed for. That's an interesting question I don't think so because for almost all of human history, you knew that you and your people if you had a bad harvest could die next winter, or this winter. You know there was not that sense of this entitlement that we have that we are entitled to live a long life. There was much more of a sense of fragility and that basically to treat any year as if it's just one year in a decades long life is to treat the nature of reality, a disease, a war famine, whatever so no I don't think so, but I do think that yes technology and the secular religion of perpetual progress have driven us to the brink of now dealing with psychological and sociological overshoot. So it's that combination really of one sentence up. I think so. Okay, thanks. Gary. I'm going to go to Stuart actually because I quite liked your question even though you're working with me on the call. Stuart is a member of the deep adaptation forum and moderator of the deep adaptation Facebook group, which how many members are there on that now Stuart. We're marching on towards about 16,000 members now. Okay. So my question Michael and thanks for your chat so far. If this is also inevitable. And to be clear, I'm on the same page as you about this. So this is a question I asked myself often, what is the value in bringing people to class and how do you deal with the responsibility given that many people may not be equipped to consider it. So that's a repeat that because there was with my internet connection there was a slight crackle or break so I'll just repeat it just in case that happened for others. Yeah, as you believe collapse is inevitable. What's the point of bringing people to that awareness and also what's the responsibility given that perhaps many people won't be able to to process that and live with it. And I, I, yeah, it's a good question. That's a fabulous, it's a fabulous question for me talking to publicly about this was an accident really I didn't realize the DA paper would go wild. And, but yeah, Michael. Yeah, great question Stuart and I, that's one of the reasons why I've shifted from being a collapse or post doom or I mean, you can't get to post doom without at least going through a little bit of doom. But I, I no longer view it as my role to wake people up, because there's two schools of thought one is allow people to be in whatever form of just, it's not even denial gets a bad wrap it's often adaptive in attention. They know that you know we all feel the stress we all feel the anxiety we many of us feel the grief etc. And yet for many people they know that whatever the circumstances of their life their kids their grandkids their work situation their own at whatever to fully accept what I'm calling inevitable and unstoppable and already underway would be so emotionally challenging that they they don't know that they would they don't have confidence they'd function on a day by day basis. And they may be right. And so I, I'm now in the place where I plant seeds every conversation that I'm in publicly or privately I'm always planting seeds but I'm not doing usually more than that. Because even my sort of humorous way of saying what Tia to walkie is you know well means things are going to spiral down probably going to get worse but find ways to be a contribution to others you'll be fine. You know, even that kind of humorous sort of side stepping I do partly because I trust people's process and timing and when they're ready for a deeper conversation or deeper understanding. I've got an entire my post doom resources page on the post doom website is chock full of my own and other people's best of the best of the best stuff audio video documentaries podcasts whatever. So there's plenty of stuff out there. But my my desire at this point for the foreseeable future isn't to talk about that it's mostly as my next series will be, which is an educational series designed for small group discussion skills of post doom, no gloom living. So obviously there'll be a little bit there about how we got in this mess and whatever. But my focus 90% of it is okay however you understand our predicament, whatever your sense of inevitability or likely or possible or whatever. There are certain skills that we know from history and science of the last 200 years that facilitate wholeness and health individually and collectively. So what are the skill sets that can be nourished and supported each other and taught that allow for truly skills of post doom, no gloom living and loving. So that's what I really focus on now and it's like, I'm not trying to convert people because some people probably need to stay in denial as long as possible. So that's, that's how I rationalize the fact that because myself and many other people weren't doing any mainstream media outreach that people would only hear about so called dooms or deep adapters, deep adapters through people who are slagging is off in the mainstream media. I thought well at least it means only those people who are ready will actually Google it look us up and learn more and engage. There's the safest way of the world learning about this. However, now as as you say things begin to unravel and we face all manner of really terrifying situations around the world. I think there is more of an argument for outreach and helping people rationalize this and notice their emotional reactions and so on. We're going to go to Jessica. Just one second, Jim, just before Jessica's question, I just want to mention one thing important that Connie just reminded me of is that we often think about it only in the negative, but there are certain benefits. My colleagues, Karen and Jordan Perry have done a lot with this and I recommend my post doom conversations with them but the benefits that really are only possible with collapse acceptance and collapse trust they don't know these benefits are not available to a person. When they're in simply collapse understanding, it's only with collapse acceptance and so and one of them is the clarity that comes from understanding the historical and ecological nature of our predicament. The confusion goes away and the clarity is like, Oh my God, of course, of course, of course, we're in this mess. Of course, of course, of course, the corporations are trying to get me to believe this way of course, of course, the media. I mean, it's like when with that of course, of course, of courseness confusion is replaced with clarity. And then the blame game which is what most of us have we're trying to blame evaporates for compassion. So I really want to focus on the benefits. Okay, so I will put a link into that collapse acceptance piece and also my piece on why should we talk publicly about collapse. Yeah, Jessica. Good morning. Thank you, Jim and Michael. I'm coming from Dominica in the Eastern Caribbean. Michael I really appreciate all the work that you've done and the and the post in conversations I love those. The question for you is really around sort of the, I love the idea that we can be compassionate and we should be focusing on social justice and community but how, how are we to continue to do that in the face of expanding empire and war and with this political instability that is now really bearing down on us existential questions about nuclear war. How are we, how can this be maintained in terms of social justice and addressing loss and damage the global north the responsibility to the global south. When they're so busy, you know, expanding empire and grabbing the rest of the resources and controlling, you know, how industrial civilization is going to play itself out. How can we address and really collapse in a way that's what, what a kick butt question that is absolutely fabulous. So, all I can share is how I approach that I can't say what will work for others but for me. I recognize the unstoppable ability of it that the empire is going to continue to do what empire is good always do that homo colossus is going to continue to use political power and corruption and, and economic unfairness and injustice and all those are literally unstoppable and and and so if I invest in trying to stop that or keep that from happening I'm going to drive myself nuts so that's the first place. The second is to look at the scale and, and the, the communities and the scale at which I can make a difference in which I can alleviate suffering in which I can do something to write injustice, where I can be a contribution to the scale and the, and the locale, where that is possible. And frankly the last is really, for me, vital because it gives me a sense of trust that actually is soul nourishing, which is gallows humor. Connie and I don't take our lives for granted we treat each season as if it could be our last. I'm living two blocks we're living two blocks from our two and a half year old granddaughter obviously I want things to continue for decades. Do I think they will know I don't, or at least they won't for most people, but nonetheless I'm committed to doing everything I can to live with as much contribution to my community at the scale that I can to to confront things that deserve being confronted at the scale that I can, but basically I regularly remind ourselves in fact when anybody's talking about what's what they think is going to happen 510 20 years down. I'll usually whisper over to Connie it's just a little piece of gallows humor and I'll say yeah, unless we've all boiled like lobsters are starving by then. And it's just a way of introducing a little bit of like gallows humor I think is really vital in the stages of grief, beyond acceptance beyond trust is that sense that yes and so I treat, I treat. I treat my community, my neighborhood is sacred, but I also know that I could die in the next year or two. And Connie, we wake up each morning. Thank you, Michael. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Yes, Jim just like Connie wakes up and says, Wow, we didn't die in the nuclear Holocaust last night. We get to live another day isn't that awesome. Yeah, you have a sounds like you have a fun time. I'll have to write a note by my bed to remind myself to be grateful like that. Jessica, what are your thoughts on that I think there's a couple of things there that I'd like to hear. Yeah, I mean, I think that that's very good for your, you know, heart and soul and spirit and I can see that that would be healthy personally, but I'm my question is really what responsibility. Do you have in terms of communicating to the injustice kind of our predicament in respect to the inequality, the post colonial reality that we're living in. And the fact that people in the global south have been suffering, you know, already from collapses and will continue to suffer in larger numbers and bringing that into the, the narrative, I guess, in terms of yeah. Jessica, Michael, I'll just come in on that because I do see that as a place of collapse acceptance can be all the things that I'm reading about in terms of living in gratitude and full presence, letting go of your old stories of what was right or wrong and what to work towards and being and being in solidarity with your community and reverent towards nature. And I also think that doesn't seem enough. There are also, there are there are people right now who's who are being poisoned, who's who are being moved off their lands who are facing starvation. And so there's, there is, it might not be political activism towards emissions cuts and drawdown, but there could be a political activist agenda for people who are collapse accepting and that's why I'm fascinated by this initiative out of the idea that just collapse guys, where they're saying actually, let's not just turn away from political action because we're collapse accepting. And so that Jessica you mentioned for example this whole idea within climate policy around financing loss and damage and so recognizing that there are communities, the most effective people in communities of the world suffering right now and so why do we prioritize that rather than just prioritizing putting in tens of millions into direct air capture machines and such like some Michael your thoughts on on that. Well, I think exactly what Jessica's pointing to is precisely what many, many, many people within the collapse acceptance community still feel convicted of the heart to be engaged in which is to address injustice wherever and however it's occurring. And exactly what you've said and so Jim, the same thing for you it's like whatever a person's heart leads them to engage with they just can't live with themselves because they see this tremendous. We're dealing with a, one of the most influential books I've ever read is Jack Forbes book, Columbus and other cannibals that we're dealing with a six or 7,000 year process of weight to go what to go which is this, this virus of the mind that causes and yes there are systems of evil and exploitation and injustice and toxicity and it just everywhere and anything that we can do as individuals or groups to address that is going to be holy work. Again though to do it without a sense that this is going to necessarily transform the systems because if if you believe that it will transform things and allow for this evil to continue into the future I just don't see that as happening I see that we are homo in the process is destined for near term extinction and trying to make it so that it survives on life support just makes things worse, which is not to say to not address everything you are, but I can't. I have no desire to try to be a we that we should address this or we should address that I don't think there's a meaningful we beyond groups that are actually still self organizing so multicellular organisms, which are mostly indigenous communities that's why they're that's why they're leading this sorry can you just say you said you don't you don't see a sense in talking about a we beyond what scale of human community. I don't find the universal we that we should do this or we should do that. Useful that's all I just don't find it useful because any concept of we that's not being used as a multicellular organism that is a group that's functioning as a unit, which industrial society is not the exact opposite of that is is almost always a delusion in the sense that it gives us the sense that we have agency at a scale that we actually don't and it just means greater suffering. I mean, your computer was made on the other side of the world and it's got metals in it which were pulled out of Africa and we're very connected, it doesn't. We're constantly connected. I was at Martin Luther King said before the end of breakfast we've depended on half the world. So I, I think there are those relationships that we are participating in and yes I'm totally with you in terms of relocalizing and. But in the relocalization book in the deep adaptation edited book I did, we also then talk about not turning away. So there's, I think a phrase that sometimes uses is, is a cosmo localism, so that sort of global solidarity but as well as the the relocalization. Well, I agree with all of that, Jim, I just the common perception is that the, the global south is going to suffer worse than the global north and that's absolutely already the case. And the global north is so dependent upon complex supply chains and everything else that over the course of literally the next three or four years we are likely to see a collapse of so much that we in the so called developed so called privileged are actually much closer to famine and death than many peoples around the world that still live with some connection to the land. Yes, there is certainly a lack of understanding of how vulnerable people living in urban industrial consumer societies are. Jessica any thoughts on that because then we'll be coming to a close. So I, I think it's, I think it needs more, more food for thought but maybe at another time. Thank you, Michael. Yeah, and Jessica I would be I would love to be in conversation with you perhaps and Jim just on this topic that we lean into this and then I learned from you because right now I've got my own blinders. What I've been engaged in for the last 1020 years was especially the last three or four years, in terms of post do no bloom and I'm happy to be educated on this from you and others. Thanks, Michael. Yeah, my sense is it really is a, you know, what is a global justice agenda for people who are truly collapse accepting. How can one try beyond one's nearest and dearest and neighbors and all of that, which is really important without driving what was it you said driving oneself nuts and and feeling like one is pushing against this impossible imperial juggernaut. And perhaps well just helping, you know, community communities contacting each other from around the world and acting in solidarity in a bilateral way might be one straightforward way of acting. But yeah thanks for bringing this up Jessica it's really important stuff and Michael for being open for further dialogue on it I think it's really important thank you everyone for joining. I'll be back together in about a month. I'm going to be hosting Joe, Joe Confino, who's former guardian editor and Huffington Post editor now lives in Plum Village. And so we'll be exploring his journey in terms of collapse as well. So, thanks again. I just want to say you, you specifically, and your whole deep adaptation forum the whole deep adaptation world were one of the main inspirations for me for even launching the whole post do no gloom project and conversations and it was people like I love myself and Darja Mel and Barbara Cecil and Catherine Ingram that we're really Stan Rushworth, we're really the foundational sort of heart space for me to even engage in this so I just deep bow of respect to you as an older, even though I'm older than you and physically years you're an older brother than me on this path so thank you. This sounds brilliant I can retire then knowing it is all in good hands. Cheers. Thanks for that Michael. Bye bye everyone.