 Welcome back to the original gangsters podcast. I'm here in my command center home office. I'm Jimmy Bucciolato here with my partner in crime and co-conspirator Scott Bernstein. Hey now. And before we get started, just want to remind everyone, please subscribe to our video channel on YouTube and our podcast on Spotify, Google, Apple, wherever you find podcasts. And also shout out to Benny, our producer and engineer. So we're pretty excited about our episode today. We have an award-winning journalist, Brian Collister from Texas is with us. And he is also the founder, I think you're either founder or the CEO of the investigative network. Are you the founder too? Founder and CEO of the investigative network. Okay, great. Thank you. So we have a great investigative journalist with us who has done a lot of reporting on the Banditos Motorcycle Club. So we're going to spend this episode deep diving the Banditos Motorcycle Club. And I'm really looking forward to this because Scott and I are in the Midwest. And just speaking for myself, I don't know a lot about the Banditos. And I know Scott, I think, I don't think you've covered them much in Europe. You know, I'm interested. I don't want to get too far ahead of ourselves. But if we want to start in the 2020s and then maybe go backwards and use this as a segue, you know, my first dive into Banditos reporting was in the last six months related to my chronicling of this so-called Blue Wave, the Pagans expansion, and how it's affected other clubs, including kind of our home club in Detroit, the Outlaws, and the Hells Angels and whatnot. And I was getting good intel from Outlaws in late 22, early 23 about this arrangement that they had crafted with the Banditos, which allowed Outlaws to go into certain parts of this country that they hadn't been welcomed before. They could wear their collars down in Texas is what I heard. And that alliance or relationship that's been formed is a reaction to the Pagans who have had about a 15-year relationship with the Mongols, but I think it's been more ramped up with this Blue Wave expansion effort. And this was kind of a counter to that. Have you heard that, Brian, that the Outlaws and Banditos have come to some type of understanding recently? No, I hadn't heard that. Most of my reporting with the Banditos goes basically up to the shootout in Waco and the trial that happened in San Antonio. My best contact, my best source of information with the Banditos is sitting in federal prison for the rest of his life. But what I've reported, does that sound possible, plausible or is that like you're okay? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's all about turf. And if they're not going to patch over, I don't know if you've heard that term before, but if they're not going to patch over, then coming up with some type of agreement where they can wear their colors on their territory, that sounds like it sounds like something that's being pushed by the reality that if they don't allow that, they're going to stay too small of a club and they're going to get run over or run out of their territory. So it sounds like a logical move to me. Yeah, I got from two separate sources that are Midwesterners tied to the outlaws. But because of their job in the building construction field, they do work in Texas. And they were telling me that up until let's say this year, when they went down to Texas, they could never show their colors. And that at some point, early this year, late last year, they are now when they've gone into I think the Houston area to for work, not just want to be clear, not motorcycle club related work, like actual employment work. And they were allowed to show their colors where their colors for the first time. So I guess we'll see where that goes. But Jimmy, you want to throw it back to kind of take it up to the 30,000 foot view? Yeah. Brian, you want to start just describing our audience, how you were a reporter in Texas, how you got started, interested in this particular subject and this club and some of the highlights and then we'll go from there. Sure. So I've lived in Texas most of my life. And even before I became a reporter was very familiar with the Banditos. They were known and notorious throughout Texas. And so when I became a reporter, I worked my way up to the San Antonio market. So I worked at a television station in San Antonio. And although the organization, the president and sort of the headquarters, if you will, was known to be Houston, the vice president, whose name is John Portillo, he was leading the San Antonio chapter, which was the largest chapter that they had. So in the course of my reporting, I one day just got a wild hair and decided I wanted to try to see if I could get the Banditos to talk. They didn't, as you can imagine, they didn't make a habit of talking to reporters. So I reached out and through their website, strangely enough, at the time, and this is early 2000s, and eventually wound up speaking with the then president. At that moment, the president was out of Bellingham, Washington, George Weggers. And I wound up talking with George. And George, I told him I wanted to not only do some reporting on them, but also potentially shoot a documentary and spend time with them, which we did. And the documentary didn't result from that, but the footage was used eventually in some of my reporting. But George's position was that he wanted to try to change the image of the Banditos from Hellrages and criminals and the biker lifestyle to just a bunch of guys that like to ride bikes together. And like any other larger organization, they have some bad apples, but so does law enforcement. So we started the process of basically hanging out with the Banditos. And I formed a strong relationship with the vice president. Again, John Cortillo is his name. We'll talk about him later when we talk about the shootout in Waco. But because I was in San Antonio and John was in San Antonio, we wound up, we would go to lunch. Here we'd be sitting in a Mexican restaurant in San Antonio, the vice president of the Banditos and an investigative TV reporter. And we'd be talking about all sorts of things. There were several incidents during my reporting time, which we can cover some of those bases. But oftentimes what wound up happening was there would be a public incident and John Cortillo would call me and say, what should we do as a club? And like asking me for PR advice, basically. You were the media conciliary. Yeah, essentially. Essentially. He called me up and say, the police chief is saying, is that another thing about us? What should we do? Well, tell your story. Let me come out and do an interview with you. And in one case, I suggested he hold a press conference. And when I can't remember his name off the top of my head, but there was a boxer in San Antonio who was a local boy made good. And he was murdered by a Bandito named Richard Merle. And when that happened, that just opened up the can of worms again for the Banditos. And the chief of police was letting them have it in the media. And so they had a press conference. And those are all things that sort of because of my relationship with John just sort of naturally happened. And over the years, we got to know each other better and hung out, you know, usually with a TV camera somewhere nearby, but sometimes we would just get together and have lunch. And at this time, I just want to contextualize Jimmy for the audience. Jeff Pike was the president. So George Weger's was the president until like oh five. Right. And then and then it switched to Jeff Pike. And Pike was based out of where? Out of Houston, just outside of Houston, Tombaugh. So you have Pike in Houston and Portillo down in San Antonio? Right. And did you get any exposure to Pike? No, Pike was sort of like the man behind the curtain. He didn't like to go out in public. He he stayed pretty much on on his property outside of Houston. I think he was I think he was a mechanic by trade. But yeah, I don't I went on several rides with them went to Sturgis with them and don't ever remember seeing your meeting Pike. He was very, very hesitant to be out in public with the with the Panditos. And I mean, general public, not like a small event that they would have or I don't know. This is a this is just a really quick aside. But I don't know if you've seen the television show Tulsa King. But in Tulsa King, they have a well, not I don't want to be a spoiler alert. They have a character that was a biker boss, whose last name was Pike. And I'm guessing that the creator of that show, Taylor Sheridan, who's from that part of the country was probably inspired by Jeff Pike to create the character Carson Pike. Sounds like more than a coincidence. Sorry, now go back to Jimmy. Go ahead. Yeah, I was just going to say some shameless self promotion here. We have an episode on our channel where we interviewed George Christie, who was a heavyweight with the Hell's Angels. And we spent a lot of time talking about this with George. And I want to see what you think about the results with the Banditos with their attempt in Texas. But George Christie, you know, he this was a conscious decision on his part to he had this position that we know that the government they're saying we're the mafia on wheels. The local media says, you know, we're criminals. And he and his point was like, we can either let them define us or we can actually, instead of being so secretive and, you know, not saying anything, we should try to craft our own image, really like public relations, like you're talking about, Brian. And they were they were fairly successful. Remember George Christie had the famous Olympic, you know, he carried the torch at the 84 Olympics. And, you know, the toys for Todd's and they were active in the community. And it worked for a while of like changing the paradigm of that the Hell's Angels aren't scary guys. They might be tough guys, and they like motorcycles, and you probably don't want to mess with them, but they're not an organized, you know, criminal group. And I watched you reporting on KXAN that the video footage is on YouTube, and it's really great where it seems like the Banditos are trying to do something similar there. Did it work? I mean, how well did that go down in that PR? Well, it clearly was a PR motivation. It certainly was with George Weggers. And then on a local level, and even a regional Texas level, John Portillo, obviously getting permission from Jeff Pike at that point, but would allow us to, I think, basically hang out with them and report with them from time to time. I don't know if it worked or not. It didn't sway the chief of police, Bill McManus in San Antonio. Anytime there was an incident or an arrest with the Banditos, he would make the point that, you know, as you said, they're at the mafia on wheels. They're organized crime, drug dealers, gun runners, you know, they run prostitution, and all of the things that these groups, these clubs, are accused of doing, he would basically go in and make that point. Yeah, so if people watch the video on YouTube, it's really remarkable because at one point, they even were receiving an award from a city councilwoman. So if you want to, I mean, I encourage people to watch it for themselves, but you want to give us the shirt. Right. So what happened, the reason that video is on YouTube is because after the shootout in Waco, I was the only person to speak to a Bandito representative right after the shootout in Waco, and they did an interview. We had over a million hits on the story on the TV station's website at the time, and they were putting out a message that had been a rumor that they had put out that they were going to strike back at law enforcement after the biker shootout in Waco, and they wanted to dispel that. So that's why they didn't. And then once again, I'm on the phone talking to John Portillo in San Antonio, although now I was in Austin, and I said, John, you really need to have somebody come out and do an interview. So they connected me with one of the members in Austin. But what we're referring to is when I worked in San Antonio on a Saturday, John allowed us to come out with camera to one of their hangout events, music, barbecue, beer, the whole nine yards. And as soon as I walked in, a very familiar face looked at me and said, Oh, hey, how are you doing, Brian? And glad to see you. By the way, the councilwoman is going to be here in just a little bit. I said, OK, the person was a representative of a local organization and not affiliated with the banditos, but apparently friendly. And I walked away and I was thinking councilwoman, what is he talking about? The councilwoman gave the banditos a proclamation on behalf of the city of San Antonio signed auto pen, I'm sure, but signed by the mayor and the entire city council for their good deeds, for their good work in the community. And we recorded it. We did a quick interview with her. And as soon as we aired that story, all hell broke loose. She apparently somehow sort of snuck it through city hall, did not have permission. It became a huge problem for her. And she was up for reelection and she lost her reelection bid shortly thereafter. So while she thought they were doing some good in the community, the fact that she went and got a proclamation signed by the mayor and council members of San Antonio didn't sit well with the public officials once once we blasted it out on the airwaves and they found out what was going on. Can I throw some historical not necessary context, but I guess context and then ask Brian to respond. So taking on this idea that George Wiegers, when he takes over I think in the late 90s, that he decides to try to do a rebrand of some sort of PR campaign to make people get a more in their opinion realistic viewpoint of who these guys are. They're not the Mafian wheels and so forth. From my very brief research on this club, you had two guys that were kind of like the Babe Ruth and Luke Gehrig or the LeBron James and Dwayne Wade, if you will, bringing into more modern times of the bandidos. Don Chambers, who they called mother, who was the founder and then Ron Hodge, who was like the second founder or second president, they called stepmother. How does Wiegers leadership differ from the original two? Well, it was quite a departure for the club. He was the first and only outside of Texas. He was away up there in Bellingham, Washington and the club is the majority based in Texas. That was very unusual. I can tell you that my conversations with him about us being allowed to record and interview them. He was very straightforward about what he had hoped that would do, which as you described, it would portray the image that they wanted to portray. But I can tell you after we started to hang out with them, including a trip, we went on a ride and followed them to Galveston, which is very close to Houston. I can remember while we were there, I was doing an interview with one of the bandidos old ladies, as they would describe them. It was a relatively innocuous conversation, but one of the bandidos came up and stepped in front of the camera and looked at me and said, that's enough. My conversations with a couple of other club members, it became clear that not everybody was on board with what George was doing, and they didn't like it one bit. But we were safe, we were being protected by the top guy and the number two. We just had to take the cue and cut the interview short. From what you know about these historic leaders and mother and stepmother, is this a total departure from these two, leading the group from the NOA chambers, founded the group in the, I think, 66, by the 80s, Hodge was leading it and took them outside of the country, made them international. But were they just like, we don't care that there's an image out there that we're Hellraisers and we are the Hell's Angels, I guess, of Texas? They absolutely loved it. Okay, so I just want to make sure the delineate between the heirs. Yeah, and that's why I think a lot of them had a hard time with our presence there, with what Weggers was doing. And I understand there were some other leadership related issues. Some of the bandidos didn't like the fact that the president wasn't in Texas, although he certainly was present a lot. And Weggers eventually went and did prison time as well years later. Did he have a vice president in Texas? The vice president with John Portillo. Under Weggers, too? Okay. Yep. Yeah, I'm not sure when John became vice president, but he was vice president with Weggers and with Pike. And what was the situation about, how does Weggers get power? Did we know the back story on that? I don't know other than it's a popularity contest, right? I mean, it's how he went about campaigning or convincing the other bandidos that he should be the club president. I don't know. Or if it was handed down to him by the whoever was present before that, I'm not really sure how that process took place. Or for that matter, how Pike became president. But I think... I think Pike became president because Weggers went to jail. Yeah, probably. In terms of Weggers, another thing I just want to throw in your direction and get your comment on, for me, outside of just these last, let's say, year where I've been reporting on outlaws, possibly joining forces with bandidos, really my first glimpse of Bandidos Nation was when I was doing a little reporting on the Great Quebec Biker War of the late 90s and 2000s, which coincided with Weggers taking power. And I know Weggers was, at one point, traveled to Canada. And Jimmy, do you want to call that up for the audience to let them kind of know how that was all playing out? Well, just if people aren't familiar with that, the Hells Angels, Quebec, Montreal, that's usually Hells Angels territory, and there's another club there, the Rock Machine. And I'm not an expert on it, but my understanding is that they were going to patch over with the Bandidos, and this didn't go over well, and there was a war. Well, the Hells Angels and the Rock Machine got into a war. The Rock Machine had spawned off from the Hells Angels, and then they were going to war with each other. Hells Angels were getting reinforcements from the United States. Rock Machine was a Quebec-based biker club, and they somehow connected with the Bandidos down in Texas and got the support, resources, people, weapons from Weggers' administration. Did you know a lot about that? Did you get a chance to talk to me about that? I didn't get a chance to talk to George about that at the time. We didn't touch on... I'm trying to remember if that was during the time period where I was communicating with him or not. I think it was around 2000-ish. Yeah. I think it was slightly before the opportunity that I had to interview them. I believe Weggers got kicked out of Canada. Like, RCMP came to a meeting that he was having and said, we want you out of the country. We're driving to the airport. I seem to recall that story. Yeah. Sorry, I didn't mean to, again, go down another rabbit hole there. Even Australia, there was a huge war that went on in Australia that involved the Bandidos, and I seem to recall something about somebody used like a rocket launcher in that. I don't know if you're familiar with what went down in Australia, but that was... I mean, it wouldn't be the first fight, but what they did in Canada, I think, caught the attention of U.S. law enforcement. I think that was part... Obviously, it caught the attention of Canadian law enforcement, but I think they did themselves a big disservice and they put a large target on their heads when they did that. Which, Jimmy, it's interesting to see the... Maybe the disconnect from Weggers coming into power in 98 and saying, we want to re-emphasize that we're not the mafia on wheels or around that time, but then on the other side of it, he's negotiating with guys in Canada, bikers in Canada, and I believe he met with Vita Rizzuto, too, at some type of sit-down in peace conference. I'll tell you from my first... It flies in the face of the notion that we don't want to be viewed as gangsters. From my reporting, my perspective, I was never fooled into believing that they were a bunch of guys who just like to ride bikes. No, I'm not saying you're bright. Don't think I'm not saying you're worse. No, I was always very conscious of that. I didn't want people to get that perception that I could be snowed like that. I just didn't have... To me, the access and getting to interview them and talk to them was a huge step. Were they going to admit to me that they've done all these horribly legal things? No, they weren't, but that wasn't the point so much, but it was to be able to open up their world a little bit and see inside it. I was just trying to color up who George Weggers is, that he could say one thing, but at the same time be traveling across international borders to meet with mafia and other biker bonds. And frankly, the same with Portillo. John Portillo, as you well know, probably, that he went to prison with Jeff Pike as a result of the investigation that took place after the biker shootout in Waco, and they went for what was essentially a RICO charge. But I wasn't oblivious enough to realize that Portillo had done things that he didn't exactly want to talk to me about. It was an incident where in San Antonio, a very close lieutenant of Portillo's was shot and killed outside of a pool hall by some local gangbanger, not even a motorcycle club. Well, years later, I was told by a source that what had happened was there was some type of dispute, some type of fight, and the gangbanger waited outside for the bandito to leave and then shot him in the parking lot. Well, a few weeks later, that gang member wound up being found shot multiple times in the head at a truck stop just outside of San Antonio. I was told one of the people that pulled the trigger was John Portillo. And that was because this guy had committed the ultimate offensive of killing someone that he felt like was one of his brothers. True or not, I'm going to say allegedly pulled the trigger. And the way it was described to me, it took them a while to figure out who this gang member was, but of course, they were able to. They talked to a young female who I'm not sure if she knew the gang member or just approached the gang member, but she lured him to this truck stop on the premise of a date, if you will. And while they were in the car, the Richard Merla other bandito I told you about and John Portillo and I believe one other, at least, pulled the gang member out of the car and killed him. Well, I want to eventually get to the sort of the history of the banditos in Texas and then fast forward connect that to Waco, but I just want to make something, a comment on that, see what you guys think. I'm a criminologist as my day job. And so I'm interested in this conceptually. And one of the issues I have with like the way law enforcement frames things. And I'm not, please don't misunderstand. I'm not justifying murder and want people to misunderstand. But if a gang banger starts something with a biker at a bar and they get to some kind of scuffle, someone gets shot, then there's another shooting and retaliation. That doesn't mean it's organized crime related. And, you know, someone may be thinking, well, what's the difference? Well, conceptually, there is a still a big difference. It's not to justify murder or, you know, club fighting it out with a gang. But those types of case studies where someone's shot, law enforcement will use that as evidence that this is mafia. And to me, mafia is always about organized crime. And so I don't know about this particular case study, but if there's an incident at a bar, someone gets shot, I'm not trying to justify that. I'm just saying conceptually, it may not be organized crime. What's the difference between personal and business? Yeah. Right. Exactly. It's a difference between personal and business. This gang banger was stupid enough to kill a bandit and not realize what that meant, which was that you were going to get hunted down like a dog and killed by his brothers. Jimmy, I would say that an organized crime murder would be defined by it enhances the killer's position in the organization that they're a part. Yeah, for some kind of entrepreneurial, like some kind of economic gain. So I'm just interested in those kind of, because I always have the sense that when the FBI puts out its, you know, the gang assessment, that some of that's inflated when they talk about gang related crimes. Sometimes it's just a case of a street gang bumps into another street gang member at a party, and they have words and someone gets shot. And I'm not trying to say that that's okay, but to rack that up as, oh, see, this is all these gangs are involved in organized crime. I think conceptual clarity is important, at least I do. So anyhow, but if we can, so talk about the banditos, how they start in Texas, because I think that relates to ends up with the Cossacks and other clubs. But in the late 1960s, am I correct in saying that you don't have the Hell's Angels or any of the major clubs there? So is that how the banditos sort of start? It's kind of an alternative in a place where you don't have the major clubs? Right. I almost think that the founder, Don Chambers, saw the Hell's Angels as sort of like a template, you know, as and then began the club here in the Houston area. And then it just took off from there. You know, I don't know if you're familiar with their logo, their patch. But that comes from the caricature with the sombrero on comes from the Frito bandito character from Frito Way, if you will, corporate logo. But that's they sort of picked up that Frito bandito and call themselves the banditos. And so they eventually become the hegemonic club in Texas. And so that's going to lead us to this situation where there's, would you say the Cossacks are like maybe the second largest motorcycle club in Texas, is that accurate, Brian? Yeah, but yet not large. I mean, you know what I mean? Like it was, by saying next, in terms of size, they were nowhere near the size of the banditos. Just to give a timeline, Chambers finds the group in 66 or finds the club in 66 as mother Chambers and then stepmother Hodge takes over. I think it's as early as 72. And Chambers, I believe, was an ex-marine who got out and just couldn't find his niche in life until he sort of created this. And then he goes to prison too, I think not long after founding it, I believe. Yeah, Chambers, yes. Yeah. So that's the landscape the banditos are the major club in town. And we're going to fast forward here to the Waco incident because we've already referenced that a number of times. This is a huge story. This is 2015, right? And tell us about the organization that's going to have that meeting at the restaurant, why they were doing that, and then walk us through the Melee, if you can, Brian, based on your reporting. So among what they call the support groups of the other sort of independent bikers, if you will, I can't remember the exact name of the organization, but they would get together and they would have meetings, they would have get-togethers. And that's what that's what was going on in Waco at the Twin Peaks restaurant. This group was having a get-together and it involved all sorts of different clubs that so the banditos wouldn't necessarily patch over every club. You could be, you could, as long as you had their permission, you could be a subcategory of the banditos, if you will. So that's what was going on in Waco. Now, they had had issues with the Cossacks prior to that, obviously, as we all know. And it was alleged in the trial that John Portillo, the then vice president, was the one who who said, we're going to go to war with them. And I talked to John shortly after the shootout happened and he literally was about 60 seconds from pulling in the parking lot, riding up from San Antonio when he got a call, don't come here, turn back around, he's been shooting. So he left and was not there that day. But that's my experience in terms of what I know about the shootout that hasn't been widely reported anyway. Well, so Waco, just in Texas, that's what in between Dallas and Austin, roughly? Yes. It's a good central meeting point. So the Cossacks, which I believe were primarily up in the Dallas area, decided they were going to attend and make some trouble. And that got to law enforcement and law enforcement was there and prepared. And then we have the bloody shootout. Yeah. So the organization, I don't know if it still exists, the Texas Confederation of Clubs and Independence, they're going to have their meeting. So both clubs show up now. From what I've read, each club accuses the other one of starting it. But if people are unfamiliar with this incident, I think there's some pushing and shoving and then eventually they're shooting. It's in 2015, let's let people know. Yeah. So eventually there's some shooting. And I think, let's see here, nine people were killed during the shootout. 20 wounded. Right. And almost 200 people arrested as a result. So do you have any insight, Brian, is it still just like he said, she said in terms of who instigated it? It's very much who said what, who first. But it's also, it's very clouded. We've never gotten clarity on who pulled the trigger first. There is a theory that it was law enforcement that had snipers set up and that they started doing the shooting. I know that the lawsuit, several lawsuits are still ongoing. And the district attorney who was, who took a lot of heat for the way he approached the case, the last I heard, you still hadn't been deposed. And so I think there's still a lot more reporting to be done on that case. But I don't think we know at this point who started the shooting and who finished the shooting. But from all of the video that I've seen, I didn't see any bikers with guns in their hands. But we certainly know that nine people died in that shootout. And that's where the speculation that it was law enforcement that did most of the shooting, if not law enforcement. Yeah, I want to make a point and see what you think. So my understanding that police made this big deal about their rapid response time. But there were bikers at the meeting that were saying the cops were already there. That's a false narrative. They were waiting. They were absolutely waiting. So I think that's a pretty intriguing idea that law enforcement may have instigated this. And we know of other cases where basically you're talking about entrapment where they instigate things within clubs or between clubs. But I want to make this point that my understanding is that some of the victims took headshots and torso wounds. And when you think about the forensics of a shooting, if all these guys have handguns and it's like the okay corral, it seems difficult to imagine that people would take hits like that with such precision. Which then if you connect those dots, then the argument is like, well, that's because that's not what happened. In fact, there were trained SWAT team or some kind of law enforcement personnel who were picking people off. And are you familiar with that that are you trying to what do you make of that? Right. They're absolutely were sharp shooters there. I have the photos have never been publicly released, but I've seen the photographs of some of the bandidos that were shot and on the ground and and the photographs that were taken after the scene. And they clearly had headshots. And so you're right, that doesn't that doesn't sort of add up to, you know, fist fight breaks out, somebody pulls a gun. Again, I would maybe I missed it, but I would I would my perception is I didn't see in any of that video from the internal and external cameras that were the surveillance at that restaurant. I didn't see anybody any of the bikers displaying a weapon or the start start the shooting. Yeah. And there's some also just some controversy with the way things were were handled. Even like like some of the individuals there who did not have firearms on them. And by the way, some of the guys who did, you know, if they weren't convicted felons, I mean, Texas is a pretty gun friendly state. So just because you have a handgun doesn't mean you're you're you're up to no good. But a lot of those guys were not armed. And yet they were zip tied and held for a long time with with like really extraordinary bail. Like I was like a million dollars or something like that. Some of these guys did not they didn't have criminal records. They didn't have any firearms on them. And yet they're they're there were weekend bikers there. There were there were weekend weekenders that were there. And basically law enforcement took the position and this became part of the controversy. They literally arrested every biker they could find. Yeah, I mean, it seems like if you deep dive the case, it seems to me like there were some major civil liberties, some violations of civil liberties here with with the extraordinary high bail and also the way things were handled. What's the sense in Texas in the community about this? I know it's a few years gone by now. But what's your take on like just people in the community? What what do they think happened? I think it was a wake up call for a lot of people. They they you know, when you're driving down the highway and you see somebody blow by you and they've got a bandito's rocker, you know, on the back of their, you know, their vest. It's like, Oh, cool, check that out. There hadn't been a violent clash like that in forever. I mean, it was the biggest thing that that's ever happened. I mean, you would hear about isolated small incidences here and there. So I think it was a wake up call for for the public in general. And then things started to unravel. And it wasn't Oh, this is this obviously there were big bad biker groups that were, you know, going at each other. But then all of the all of the other people that got ensnared in this from the weekend bikers to, you know, people that were not even club affiliated. I think that's when public perceptions sort of shifted a little bit. And then as you said, started people started looking at the civil liberties related issues that took place. Yeah, because it wasn't there's something where they the the person they put in, I mean, Scott's a lawyer in addition or not he has law degree, but in addition to being a reporter, but the person they put in charge of the grand jury was it wasn't there a conflict of interest there? Wasn't it like a cop who was there? It was a former police officer, I believe. Yeah. So I mean, what do you make of that, either Brian or Scott? I mean, doesn't that seem to be like a conflict of interest? I mean, if there's anything that I've learned in my 15 plus years of reporting on this stuff is just that the lines between the law and the criminals that these lawmen are tasked with with dismantling it just especially at this level, not at the street level, but at the level of organization of this is that it's just the lines are so murky, and there's so much gray area there that is, you know, morally and ethically compromised and not necessarily by the book. And it's the mindset that the ends justify the means. Yeah, I mean, to Brian's point that there hadn't been a major incident of like violence within the club, at least not to this extent for a while, that fits into that conspiracy narrative that law enforcement instigated this because they wanted something to fit their narrative that this is the mafia on wheels, they're very dangerous, then you have this massive incident that makes global news. And therefore, this justifies more prosecutions, more money for law enforcement. And I think that that can be like a structural analysis. I don't necessarily think that's a conspiracy theory. Maybe it is. But one thing I ask my students, Brian, is when we look at the FBI's gang threat assessment, their conclusions are there's more street gangs than ever. There's more outlaw motorcycle clubs than ever. They're all dangerous. They're all involved in drugs. They're all involved in murder. And I ask my students, what would you expect, what would you expect their conclusions to be? And, you know, we can get into the data and look at it. And but like, of course, they're going to say that, right? You think the FBI is going to put out a report that says nothing to see here. There's no crime. There's no threads. We don't give us any more money. Don't give us any more resources. Don't hire any more agents. So I'm sorry if that comes off as cynical, but I think that's a structural analysis to think about. So Brian, I don't know if you have any thoughts on that. I think you're absolutely right. There are a lot of people in law enforcement that earn good living or living anyway, doing exactly what you just explained. Ironically, I remember one of the first public comments that the Banditos made was John Portillo in San Antonio. And it was after some Bandito had been busted for, I think, a small amount of marijuana and some weapons. And he came out and publicly trashed the police department because just a few months earlier, eight San Antonio police officers had been arrested for running protection for drug dealers and were arrested by the FBI. And he's like, we've got fewer people arrested in our club than they do in their police force. And he made a good point. That one really stuck. So I think your theory is right on. I mean, even here in Michigan, Detroit, Scott, I don't know if you saw recently, like people in the Wayne County Prosecutor's Office, several investigators in the Wayne County Prosecutor's Office were arrested. Was it racketeering or bribery? I can't remember. Yeah. I mean, law enforcement in Detroit has long been an entrepreneurial endeavor. It's more than just being a public servant. Yeah. And it has a bad reputation. And so let me ask you, Brian, because I'm interested in this kind of philosophical argument, and you see this in the reporting with the AXAN story, which is this idea where the member of the bandito says, look, there may be some individual members who are involved in criminal activities. We don't deny that. But that's on that. That's their individual. If they're hustling out there on their own, that that is not something that the club sanctions. It's not something that club mandates. The club doesn't receive any proceeds from that. And if that person does that, that's their business. So it's not to justify, but this idea that we're a mafia on wheels just conceptually is not true. What do you make of that argument? Because I hear that a lot when I do field research, when I interview people who are members of, well, you know, one percenters, they'll make that similar argument. And I noticed that in your reporting, some of the people you interviewed said that. What do you make of that argument? I think it's bullshit. Okay. Nice and succinct. I think that it's, I think there are members that go off the reservation, if you will, and get caught. But I think ultimately the structure of some of the clubs clearly is from an organized or maybe even disorganized criminal organization. But these clubs can't function financially unless they're bringing in money and they do that through criminal activity. What do you make of that? A lot of the guys have legit jobs. They do. Yeah, they do. I think there's a difference in levels. And this is just me talking just from my own theories. I think the higher up you are, the more trusted you then become. And then you take part in some of the organized criminal activity. I think below that level is that type of club member that you're talking about who maybe has a day job. John Portillo had an air conditioning business and used to swear all the time that he was doing the best he could to make a living fixing and selling air conditioning units. So I think are they going to trust someone at a lower level to be involved in the higher level criminal activity? No way. I mean, they're still trying to figure out if they're a snitch. So I think it has to do with the higher you are, the bigger your responsibilities and involvement would be in the criminal activity. That's just my perception. So another thing I wanted to ask you, Brian, about the culture from people you talked to, I know you're reporting you've gone in a different direction after 2015, but since then, there's been this sons of anarchy blowing up. In some ways, that's changed the perception in I think probably good ways and bad ways for these clubs. In a good way, it sort of has this godfather like romanticization where now some people think, oh, Bikers are these are really cool guys. I'd like to be around these guys. On the other hand, the sons of anarchy really plays into this idea that they're just organized criminal groups. So it kind of can cut both ways. I've heard different things from people I've talked to, some guys I've talked to say they didn't like the show at all. They thought it was bullshit. And other guys found it entertaining. So what's your sense of like just like pop culture with the bandidos? What's their interaction with that or their sense of it? I think that goes along with the romanticism or at least the feeling that there are a lot of people that want to live their lives that way. There are a lot of people that see that we're not going to take shit from anybody and we're going to do what we want when we want and how we want. And I think just like with the mafia, that certain biker gangs attract that sentiment from people. Yeah, I think there's something in I make the argument in some of the academic work I've published that the outlaw gene is really in the American DNA. I mean, going back to the American Revolution, but really I make that argument. But then also you think of the folk heroes of like Billy the Kid, Jesse James, John Dillinger, I have the Al Capone poster in my back there that there's something about like America and the Hell's Angels are iconic. Like is there something about like Americans that we like people who defy the powers that be? I really I think that's true. Yeah, as long as they don't come after us. As long as we're not in the line of fire. Yeah, sure. Right. No, that's a good point. So what's your sense of what the landscape is now? I know you said you're reporting on different things now, but there was a big case that happened in New Mexico. I don't know if you followed that, but there was an allegation that part of the investigation was I think the Mongols were trying to establish clubs in New Mexico and the banditos consider that their territory. And so there were some skirmishes. Any sense of like what the landscape is now in Texas and that part of the country? Well, Texas, you know, the banditos will always claim Texas as their territory. I mean, it's just the way it is. I know from my conversations with John Portillo and a couple of other of his lieutenants that they they had constant communication with the Hell's Angels hierarchy. And you don't hear about them getting in skirmishes with each other. And that's because it's reminiscent of the mafia and the five families where they sit down and they know they know that if they start shooting at each other, that it's going to draw law enforcement. So you don't hear about Bandito and Hell's Angels, you know, causing a ruckus with each other. That's because there's almost sort of a mutual respect. They've plotted out their territories and that's it. They're not going to step over that line. I remember being on one of our video shoots with Portillo and another bandito. His name was Bandito FU. And you can take that. You can figure that one out for yourself. But Bandito FU was telling me we were at a barbecue joint that also had music. And he said that he was telling me the story about how he was he was there with John. They were drinking and eating. And some band came in some band from the West Coast. And one of the roadies had a shirt on with the Indian head. The not a full Hell's Angels, you know, intended shirt, but it just had that Indian head on it. And the Bandito member walked up to him and said, you can either have me rip that shirt off of you, or you can take it off and you can put this on. And he had a Bandito's shirt with him. And he said the guy took it off, gave him the shirt and put the Bandito's shirt on. That's how serious they are about their territory. Any sign, any signal that there'd be, you know, somebody stepping over that line. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the case of believe his name. I was looking it up while we were talking. Anthony Benish in 2006, in the early 2000s, he started to go around Austin, Texas, telling people he was a Hell's Angel. He was going to start a Hell's Angels club in Bandito territory. And then one day he was coming out of a restaurant with his wife and son, and he was shot by a sniper and killed. And that turned out to be obviously the handy work of the Banditos, which we didn't find that out until after the shootout in Waco when a lot of the history and a lot of unsolved crimes that they committed, there were four Bandito members who admitted to being involved in his killing. And that was simply because he had the stupidity, if you will, to try and fly the Hell's Angels colors on Bandito territory. There's a lot of diplomacy and politics that goes on. Whether you subscribe to the idea that it's organized crime or not, either way, it's undeniable that there's a lot of politics that goes on to make sure that the clubs can coexist peacefully, which a lot of times they do. And like I said, I've talked to some guys who you were talking about the runs they go on and they say, I run into dudes from other clubs all the time and have no problem with them. But as you point out, sometimes there are problems. And so that's why you have to have the diplomacy and the politics. And I saw an interview with Weggers one time where he said he was friends with some Hell's Angels and he's like, if people don't like it, I don't give a shit. So it's kind of interesting that the politics that goes on. I think at those levels, you're absolutely right. Like the mafia, when they realized that when we get into wars, it draws law enforcement, they figured out the same thing. In fact, they probably used the mafia as a template and said, look, like those guys, we should sit down and talk this out. And then so the skirmishes that you see are with the smaller clubs and they don't have to be teeny tiny, but they're not the predominant clubs usually. Yeah, I talked to off the record. So I don't want to say the person's name from a major club. And something that he mentioned to me was, this is probably the sons of anarchy thing again, where they're like these posers who want to start, they want to start out while like your club. So they're like smaller clubs. And then they run into like the big boys. They regret it. They learn pretty quick because the big boys will stomp that out and sometimes literally. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so Brian, like, share with our audience. I mean, what do you have working on now and how can people find out more about your reporting and whether it was about the banditos or what you're doing now? Let our audience know if you wouldn't mind. Sure. Well, the investigative network is designed to take investigative reporting, investigative documentary filmmaking, and we're trying to make it go with that. So right now we're working on a couple of documentaries involving some true crime cases. And hopefully you'll be seeing those at some point down the road on a Netflix and Amazon a Hulu. But you know, there's so many investigative reporters who can't find places to do their work anymore. We're trying to become a home for that. Yeah, I think that's something that we're in need of with the major newspapers and television stations, they're cutting their budgets all the time, especially for field reporters, right? It's more cost effective for them to just get something from the AP or something, right? Absolutely. And the investigative reporting, they see that as just being too expensive and too high risk. Yeah, it takes too long, right? Everything's like they want, like because of social media things. And so it takes too long, it's too expensive. So I definitely wish you well. And I know from your resume, you looked into public corruption, things like that. Is that something that's still interested you that you're absolutely kidding? Absolutely. I spent a lot of time when I was working at local television stations basically chasing corrupt public officials. So when we catch wind of something like that and can turn it into some content, I did, if you go to investigativenetwork.org, you'll see the last thing that we did most recently was a podcast called How to Bride a Judge. And we actually interviewed a judge who went to prison for accepting a bribe. And then we got ahold of some FBI documents that showed that there were a lot of other judges that were ensnared in the FBI's investigation, but were never prosecuted. And that was because word of the investigation was leaked by a federal judge to the other judges. And so that's some good old fashioned South Texas corruption. And you can find that on investigativenetwork.org or any of your podcast platforms. Just it's called How to Bride a Judge. Yeah, I think our audience would be interested in that. And I would just say if I can editorialize for a moment here before we wrap up. I think that's more dangerous when you have public officials who are acting in a criminal way, because they have the sanction of the state. And at least with the public enemies, like old fashioned Al Capone or the Hells Angels, Banditos, now, at least you know where they stand, right? Which side of the law they're on. To me, corrupt judges, cops, politicians, that's way more dangerous because they have the weight of the state behind them. So I don't know if you have any thoughts about that. Absolutely. My only thought is that's why we need more investigative journalists. Yeah, I agree. Amen to that. Well, Brian, thank you so much for your time. Good luck with your endeavors. And hopefully we'll have you back on again. And when you have some time to share with us some of those, you know, documentaries that you're working on, let us know. I sent you want to keep a quiet for now before. For now. I don't want to give it away to other reporters. All right. Well, thanks again, Brian. Thanks everyone for watching the original gangsters podcast or listening. Please subscribe and follow us on social media. I'm Jimmy Buchovato for Scott Bernstein. We're out.