 So the next talk, just a little bit on the basics of organic certification transition. Since the next two of our speakers, Wade Fisher and Nate Pelopon are either in transition to organic or certified or unit farms. We thought it'd be helpful just to kind of touch on what is certification, how does it work, some of the terms involved in that, if it's something you're curious about or have heard of and are just kind of wondering what that looks like. And again, Claire Keane formally here in Williston and then now over with plant science department in Fargo. So this talk, the origins of organic certification, kind of where did the process come from here in the US and then answer those questions, how does certification work, what is transition, some key organic regulations to know, and then just a quick FAQ at the end. And I forgot to bring them up here with me, but in the back you have some resources, if you're interested, which I will point out a couple now and a couple later. They're these orange books that are from the Midwest Organic Association. They're really great just quick intro kind of what I'm going over here and a little more detailed things about transition and certification, things to think about if you're considering organic. And then also these organic transition planners are really great. A lot more detail, a lot of worksheets that folks may find helpful. Things like just thinking about, you know, what are your goals for your operation? You know, why do you want to be organic? How close are you already to organic production sort of self-assessments of things you're already doing or what you might change? And also some really great case studies of an organic systems plan, which I'll talk about in a little bit more detail. But part of the organic certification process in the US is having this pretty comprehensive document of what is your operation, what do you do, how you do it, and that's called the organic systems plan. And this book has some examples of different operations across the country of that back. So kind of a good starting point. And there's also books back there, crop rotation on organic farms. May I hold up yours? Yeah, that's rude. This is a really great book, whether you're interested in organic or not. It does come out of the Northeast, so it's pretty heavy on like organic vegetable production, but it has the best tables that I've ever seen in terms of thinking through crop rotations for things like disease management, residue management, insect pest management. Again, it's kind of heavy on the fruit and vegetable side, but there are a couple of grain farmers in here who have their example rotations and kind of walk you through why they do what they do. So this is a great book. If you're a home gardener, you can also serve that purpose. And then this book, managing cover crops profitably. Again, whether you're organic, conventional, if you're curious about cover crops, really great resource. It's a thick book because it walks through a bunch of different species and has pages on oats, buckwheat, fava bean, sweet clover, hairy vetch, triticale, rye, kind of almost any cover crop you could think of with a profile page. And then again, the best charts I've ever seen on trying to help you figure out what did these cover crops do well. So these diagrams of like, if you're looking for things that grow quickly to help prevent soil erosion or you're trying to compare leggings for what produces a lot of nitrogen, it's kind of help you walk through species selection. So really valuable resource for folks thinking about cover crops. Okay, thanks Kelly. All right, so just quickly, when did organic start? You know, it's some people like to think about, well, anything pre-synthetic fertilizers and pesticides was organic by default. That's kind of true. So synthetic fertilizers, particularly nitrogen, just that chemical process of converting atmospheric nitrogen into ammonia was discovered about 1910. It was first commercialized, we'll put commercializing quotes, but put into wide use during World War I to make munitions primarily in Europe. And then during World War II, we produced a lot of ammonia to make munitions around the world. Yes, to go into the war effort in both Europe and the US. And agricultural fertilizers really weren't widely available until post World War II. So in the grand scheme of agriculture, you know, synthetic fertilizer and then later patrolling based herbicides, fungicides, insecticides, you know, really worked in use until the last 78 years. On that line of thinking, you did have some folks first kind of in Europe, but then also in the US just wondering, you know, what did synthetic fertilizers do to the soil? Some people concerned about, you know, was there an impact on the environment? And then some people just really concerned about this idea of cost fertilizers and inputs representing a big new cost for farmers that they never had before. And so some of the first movers and shakers in the organic world arose just from questioning these new inputs. In the US, the interest in organic agriculture and thinking about that is just farming without synthetic inputs. Caught on first in the 1940s, there was a guy named J.I. Rodale in Pennsylvania who published the organic farming and gardening magazine, and that was pretty widely available. And he was bringing some of those ideas from Europe to the US. And then in the 60s and 70s, there were a number of things that got people kind of interested in organic, whether it was the back land movement, you had younger people from urban areas and suburban areas moving out to the countryside and wanting to farm without synthetic inputs. You also had the oil crisis of 1973 and 1979, when OPEC put an embargo on selling oil to the US and petroleum prices spiked and fertilizer spiked. And you had some farmers just wanting to get away or needing to get away from the high cost of those inputs. And then also in kind of the 60s and 70s, as organic agriculture called, excuse me, as organic production kind of caught on in Europe, that created just some high value market opportunities. You had some organic farmers in the US wanting to get organic production going at a scale that they could access those higher value European markets. So kind of a lot of different threads creating organic. And the take home point at this slide though is organic certification preceded legislation in the US. So you had around the country, these different groups of farmers wanting to put, you know, define organic so they could put that on their product, again, primarily to go to European markets. But as interest in organic grew among US consumers, then they found value for that, for domestic products as well. And so the first group I'm aware of California certified organic farmers or CCUF started in California in 1973. And then just a cool thing, we here in North Dakota had one of the first organic certifying agencies. Fred Kirschman and Medina North Dakota started Farm Verified Organic in 1979. They changed names to international certification services. And they're still based out of my Medina. And they're one of the bigger certifiers of operations up here in the upper Midwest. So okay, then national. So this USDA organic symbol that's out there now and very widely recognized has been in existence for less than 20 years. So that is pretty new. So even though there has been organic certification around since the 70s, roughly in the US, there wasn't a standard for that at the national level. Each certifying agency had their list of what was and was not allowed in organic production. And it was very much locally controlled, usually groups of farmers and agronomists associated with those certifiers made the rules for what CCUF for FBO verification meant. But as again, as the export market grew, as domestic consumption of organic products grew, there was growing consensus that, well, we should have a national regulation to define organic. So that way, everybody is on a level playing field, consumers, whether they're domestic or foreign, know what they're getting. And so the first organic rule was actually written in 1990, but it took 10 years of wrangling within the USDA to get it into a format that would actually be approved. So a pretty long lag time. And the national organic program was officially launched in 2000. So again, a pretty recent thing in the grand scheme of things. And I'll be referring to the NLP a lot. And NLP, again, it's just national organic program. And that's the actual law. Those are the codes that govern what is and is not allowed in organic production in the US. And then the accredited certifiers, USDA accredited certifiers for the first time in 2002. So again, that USDA organic symbol, even though it's pretty ubiquitous now, has only been in existence for about 19 years. So what is organic certification? So I mentioned its production practices that comply with the NLP. And organic certification is granted by organic certification agencies, aka organic certifiers. So I'll use those terms interchangeably. It's an important point to know that because so it's not actually the USDA that is out there certifying a farm is, you know, compliant with organic or in violation of organic production or not. It's the USDA essentially outsourced that job to organic certifiers. And so the organic certifiers are agencies, some are for-profit, some are non-profit, that are responsible for enforcing the NLP with farmers that are seeking organic certification. And then the organic certifiers employ or contract organic inspectors. And it's the inspectors who would actually go to your farm and conduct the audit, look at your records, talk with you about your production practices, and make sure you're in compliance with your organic regulations. And so the certifiers, this isn't an exhaustive list. I just wanted to kind of give you a taste of the fact that there's many out there. And you as the farmer have full control over who you want to pick. And so it's really important who you pick, because they need to fit with you on, you know, do they have the customer support you want? Are they familiar with your production practices? Do they have resources that will be valuable to you? And also fees, there are fees associated with organic, not only the yearly inspection, but maintenance, or sorry, the initial certification, then ongoing annual certification. So finding someone whose fee scale works for you is also really important. So I mentioned international certification services, they're based out of Medina. Many folks up here use them. Their organic crop improvement association is based out of Lincoln, Nebraska. They also certify a lot of acres in the upper Midwest. The Montana Department of Ag actually has their own certification program. And it is state based. So you have to be a Montana producer with acres in Montana to get certified through the Montana Department of Ag. I mentioned CCOF in California. You might see MOSA occasionally out here, the Midwest Organic Services Association, they're based in Wisconsin. And something to know about certifiers is that with the exception of a state based program, which I think only Montana and Colorado that I'm aware of have those through their departments bag, the others can certify your operation regardless of where you are. So you don't have to be in California to get certified by CCOF. You don't have to be in Wisconsin to get certified by MOSA. And on the one hand, that's because from the audit and on farm standpoint, they're contracting with an inspector who will get on a plane or make the drive to go wherever in the country they need to go to actually do that on farm component. But then also when picking your certifier, make sure you have one that has experience in your area. So like MOSA, their wheelhouse is organic dairy. They work a lot with organic dairy farmers in Wisconsin, Minnesota, Ohio, CCOF probably most experienced in the country working with vegetable and fruit growers. But you know, out here, we're not doing too much organic vegetable production. We're doing large-scale grain. And so OCIA, ICS, Montana Department of Ag would have good experience in those production systems. So the steps, the first step with organic certification, I definitely encourage you just to think about your market and identifying your market. Sort of Sean was saying, it's like, you have to think ahead, you know, what are the products you have available? What is it you want to do? Who are your end users? And ask yourself is organic certification needed? Because again, it's cost. It's a process. If you're able to do a direct consumer thing like Sean and her family are doing without organic certification, then I think, I mean, that's awesome. That's a really unique channel. If you're, just use the example, you know, a small-scale market garden to sell directly to folks, to farmers market, you probably don't need to go through the hoops of organic certification when the consumer is able to interact with you directly. But at the scale we're out here, you know, you're looking to sell thousands, if not tens of thousands, bushels of grains, pulses, oil seeds, and you're going to need organic certification because any mill or crush or buyer at that scale, for them to have organic products at the end of the day, they need someone who's organic certified by them. So selecting your organic certifier is very important. I mentioned, consider the level of support provided. So do they have example forms and record keeping assistance that you can access? Like do they maybe have a discount on an on-farm record keeping software program or do they partner to help make that process easier with anyone access to technical support? So the certifying agency, depending on just their structure, they may have sometimes agronomists, but sometimes like experienced farmers that are kind of on staff or on retainer with them that are available to take other farmers phone calls with questions. Because they, those inspectors who visit your farm, even though many of them are extremely knowledgeable about organic practices, they can't recommend or tell you how to farm or tell you how to do something different or recommend different practices because their job is to be there to make sure you're in compliance. It's not to consult on your farming operations, but you may have an organic certifier who has those kinds of people on staff that you can call when you have questions. So is that something you want? Customer service, obviously, how responsive are they? Do they have access via phone or text or email or whatever your preferred methods are? And then of course fees. So you've selected a certifier. You'd start the process and transition. Part of that is creating and maintaining the organic systems plan. So again, an organic systems plan is this document. It's an evolving document. It's not set in stone, but the idea of it is to lay out what are the crops or livestock you produce? How do you produce it? Estimates of how much are you going to have each year? What kinds of channels are you selling them through? And that OSP is considered really core to your organic certification process because an inspector will be looking at it, referencing it when they come to do your certification. Apply for certification. So you've done the transition. Apply for certification. You undergo your inspection and review. And if everything's found to be in good order, then you'll be certified. And you are literally issued a certificate of certification by your certifier. And then that document, most buyers are going to ask for a copy of that. So you're selling them organic flax, you're selling them organic wheat. They'll want not only your wheat, but they'll also want a copy of your organic certification document. And so how much does it cost? So again, it depends on the certifier. They all have their own fee schedules. Keep in mind that initial upfront fees are higher than the ongoing fees because you'll have that initial application fee. Potentially a higher fee upfront because that initial audit and inspection is pretty in-depth. But then ongoing, your annual inspection fee and annual certifications, some certifiers vary those fees with the size and the complexity of the operation. So for example, if you're an organic grain farmer, there's called level one of what that costs. But if you also grow grain and are raising certified organic beef cattle, that's another layer to the operation. There'd be all those records associated with the cattle. So that'd probably be another fee because you have a more complex operation. Some do sort of a sliding scale. So based on your gross sales of organic products, the ballpark number I've been using for a year or two for small to medium size farms in the $500 to $2,000 a year kind of range. The USDA FSA does actually have a national organic certification cost share program that'll pay 50% of your certification fees up to $500. So that's a very good resource. If you're a Nart Dakota resident, the Nart Dakota Department of Ag also has an organic cost share program of their own that'll cover 75% of fees up to $750 a year for three years. So a little bit better than the federal one. But do be aware, no double dipping. If you're doing the Nart Dakota State Department of Ag program, then you can't also do FSA. But I would recommend if you're in Nart Dakota, you know, start out with the ND Department of Ag because it's $250 more, and then you can shift over to FSA after that third year. So land. So what is transition? I've mentioned that a few times. Transitioning to organic means that there's a 36 month period or three years between your last application of a prohibited substance. And so prohibited substance, things you can't use in organic production. So whether that's urea or map or gap or glyphosate or periquette, or even a growing maybe a GMO corn variety. So for 36 months of the last application of that thing, or in the case of say planting the GMO crop from your field, then the clock starts in 36 months after that, you can harvest your first certified organic product as long as you've done it with compliant organic standards between that last date and then harvested the next crop. Oh, sorry, could you fix the slide? That's okay. Yeah, so it's a 36 months period. You have to use the organic production practices during that period, but you can't sell it as organic. And so that does represent usually a pretty substantial financial costs for a lot of folks. And so that's, you know, acknowledging it for what it is a really big barrier to transition for a lot of people. There are methods to deal with that, certainly putting an alfalfa and growing it for three years and not spraying it is a great way to transition to organic. It's not for everybody. Obviously forages have to cash flow in that operation for you, you have to be willing to make hay and deal with it or find someone who is. But that is a way to get over that hump. Farmers are on that learning curve during transition and after. So after that 36 months have gone by, your certifier, you'd hopefully be in conversation with them at the start of your transition. After that 36 month period, you'll have your review, record keeping and documentation, the organic systems plan being reviewed and approved. And if everything's good, then you are certified at that point. And now anything harvested off of that land in the future, as long as, you know, being grown and compliant with organic rules, will be eligible to be a certified organic crop. And again though, during that certified period, it's not one and done. Unfortunately, there will be annual inspections and fees. So keep that in mind. You do have to continue to maintain your records and update that OSP. The law says you have to retain your records for a minimum of five years. And then of course, you know, implementing a crop rotation that meets the market demands, and then maintain soil fertility and minimizes pest problems. There is an exception. So if your land was in CRP or pasture and no prohibited materials were applied for the past three years, there is an exception that you could say break it out and plant a crop and have it be certified organic in the first season. Each certifier has a little bit of different process for this and what kind of documentation they need. Typically at the minimum level, they'll ask for some kind of affidavit or, you know, a written description of how this was managed. If it had a previous landowner, you know, what did they do or not do to it in the past three years so that that gets signed off on. Okay, so the actual just a really small slice of what's a very big piece of legislation. NOP section 205105 does define allowed and prohibited substances. So here's where synthetic substances and ingredients are excluded from organic production. There are some exceptions. However, a lot of those exceptions are things like sanitation products that are okay to use to like clean out equipment. Copper, what is it? Copper sulfate is a fungicide that's allowed in organic production. Fruit and vegetable, it doesn't really get used in agronomic crops much. There's some things like that, also plastic row covers, again, not really applicable to grains, but allowed in vegetable production. So that list of allowed and prohibited is there. I would definitely recommend going with a certifier who has a user friendly approach to allowed and prohibited substances because maybe, you know, you hear about a new fertilizer product you want to try or you're interested. Well, I know cattle sometimes it can be an issue if you have treated wood to use an offense post in the pasture, what's your certifier's approach to that. Having a certifier that you can call to ask about allowed and prohibited substances just to make sure you're always on the up and up is really helpful. And then there is the thing called the soil fertility and crop nutrient management standard that again, it's also part of the law. And I would say there's maybe a love hate relationship with this part. So on the one hand, it states the producer must select and implement tillage and cultivation practices that maintain or improve the physical, chemical and biological condition of the soil and minimum soil erosion. And so that is something certifiers can use. So say, you know, organic definitely has the rap of using a lot of tillage and are we, you know, losing our soil to erosion if we do organic agriculture, which certifiers are empowered. You want to look at it that way. I was going to say to keep in check, I don't know if that's quite accurate, but to call producers out on practices that would lead to say excessive soil erosion, be a longer conversation, but you know, doing things like strip cropping, rotating with perennials, using cover crops, all those things that we know are good for just keeping soil from moving. Those practices are spelled out and required. But if say you're farming on marginal ground or steep slopes, you have a lot of erosion issues, that is something a certifier could potentially call you out on because, you know, causing excessive erosion. But again, the problem then is that because how you should address it is not defined, it also leaves a lot of openness to interpretation. So most certifiers are, you know, interested in you maintaining your natural resource base, which would be the spirit of this, but actually how it's carried out for each individual producer does vary. And then the second part, producer must manage crop nutrients and soil fertility through rotations, cover crops, and the application of plant and animal materials, which includes manure. And that one is such that it's kind of reinforcing the prohibition of synthetic substances, you know, using propertation, legumes, cover crops, animal manures, compost, things like that, for soil fertility, rather than other inputs. However, you know, things like fish meal, bone meal, other products, you know, those are allowed in organic agriculture, but something to keep in mind again, just at our scale and growing grain crops, a lot of those products are often really expensive. And especially if they're coming from really far away, they may not be economical to use in row crop production. And so again, really relying on that propertation is integral to organic production over time. For livestock, can you advance, please? I'm definitely not a livestock expert, and they're on the conventional or organic side, but I just wanted to point out that transition period for livestock depends on the class of livestock or species. So poultry, under continuous organic management, beginning no later than the second day of life. So you don't necessarily have to get your chickens or turkeys from the certified organic hatchery. They can come from anywhere. You just have to start managing them organically second day of life or after hatching. Meet animals under continuous organic management since last third gestation. And could you advance the next slide, please? Yes. And some key organic livestock rules are so I'll start with the feed first. So organic livestock, whether it's chickens or beef cattle or dairy cattle, certainly a challenging part of it is that the total feed ration does need to be certified organic feed. So whether that's bringing in corn or soybean meal or forages, hay, grazed pastures, there's all need to be certified organic. If the meat, eggs or milk from those animals are going to be sold as certified organic. With the life, livestock healthcare practice standard, I put the vaccine you're allowed, antibiotics are not up at the top. So vaccines are allowed, antibiotics are not, which might hear the criticism out there of, oh, man, organic farmers, you know, if a cow gets sick and use antibiotics, are they compromising that animal animal's welfare by not treating it with something that works, you know, just maintaining organic status? They should not do that, if they do that, that would be in violation of 205-238. The producer of organic livestock must not withhold treatment from a sick animal, so that number seven, in effort to preserve its organic status. So if an animal needs antibiotic treatment or other treatment that would not be in compliance with organic standard, the rule isn't don't treat that animal, the rule is treat it as appropriate, but then just make sure it's separated and would not go into an organic marketing channel. So say you have your organic beef herd, the calf has an issue, you use antibiotics, you don't have to dispose of that calf, it's just you can raise it, but just make sure it gets marketed, not represented as organic. So if you go into a normal sale barn channel. The pasture practice standard was added in 2010, so organic rules are, you know, being updated. And it's essentially that ruminants must have access to pasture, but again, there's flexibility here depending on where you are in the country, because they realize obviously there's going to be a whole lot more grazing days available to someone in Georgia than there's going to be in North Dakota. And so the pasture practice standard, it's basically ruminants must have access to pasture at appropriate times during the year, but then also I think it's specified 30% of their dry matter intake needs to come from forages, whether that's grazing or harvested. And that was really in response to some of the really large organic dairies that have been created in Colorado, Texas and California primarily, where you do have pretty close to confinement type situations for very large organic dairies. And that really makes the small organic dairy farmers in Minnesota and Wisconsin unhappy. And the pasture standard was trying to incorporate some rules there to ensure cows being have a more forage based diet and then also access to pasture. A quick thing on organic meat, if the organic meat you buy has that USDA organic symbol on it, it does require being slaughtered in an organic certified facility. And this is a really big barrier to organic beef production in the upper Midwest, we just don't have very many slaughterhouses that are certified to do organic beef. There aren't any currently operating in North Dakota that I'm aware of. I heard that I can't remember if it was Hazen or Glenn Allen, but somebody has recently applied to start a small state inspected facility and they'd like to do organic slaughter. So we might have one on the way in North Dakota. There's only one that I'm aware of in South Dakota. Montana does have three and actually our afternoon speaker, Nate Powell-Palm does organic beef production in the Bozeman area. And I think it's still water packing that he goes with. And it's really funny. I've had the question is like, what makes an organic slaughter? Are there special knives? And the answer is no. The organic certification of a slaughter facility is mostly just about separation of the organic livestock and then organic products as they go through that process. So the gentleman, I don't remember his name, but I know I called Pioneer Meats. And the owner of that facility was really happy to talk to me and he said, yeah, the way we do it, because they do both organic and conventional, basically just start the week with organic. They'll do all their walks on Monday or Tuesday, whatever it is, when they start out slaughter, do all the organic first. They have separate coolers for the organic meat products coming off those cows. And then they can just move right on to the conventional. The problem is the cleaning in between. If you were to say start with a conventional lot of cows and then an organic plot comes in, you'd have to totally clean down the facility before you can start the slaughter. So it's not really about how the cow is killed or what it's used. It's just separating those organic raised livestock from cattle. And so some common FAQs, crops we touched on how long is transition, 36 months less if you didn't have prohibited materials applied. The seed need to be certified organic. The answer to that is that you must attempt to use certified organic seed and high cost of it is not an excuse. However, if say if you're growing corn or soybean, a maturity that you want is not available as certified organic seed, you are able to use conventional untreated seed. And certifiers accept that. However, I would caution, check if that's acceptable to your fire. There are some buyers who might want to say we only want to buy, you know, soybeans grown from certified organic soybean seed. Do you need buffers around fields in most situations? Yes. So again, the idea of not only, you know, say, genetic contamination, but also pesticide drift, buffers are required around organic production fields. It's not specified in the regulations how big those are, what they need to look like. 30 feet is kind of a common number that's out there. Some farmers I've spoken with, a man in South Dakota, what he does if he has his organic soybean field and a neighbor has conventional soybeans right next to him, which happens quite a lot. He likes to use a 50 foot buffer that he plants to, I think, oat and pea and then he haze it in the middle of the summer. And that's the physical barrier between the conventional and the organic crop. Are GMO crops allowed? No. Are split operations allowed? Yes. So you can manage, say you have a 2,000 acre operation, if a thousand are certified organic and a thousand are conventional, that's just fine. In Canada, I can't remember what the limit is, but it's something like after two or three years, you either have to be all organic or not at all. They don't allow split operations. Whereas here in the U.S., that's fine. On the livestock side, vaccines allowed? Yes. In antibiotics? No. Growth hormones? No. Does feed have to be certified organic? Yes. Again, including grain, hay, forages and grazed pastures. And then the welfare standards, livestock living conditions, the remnants must have access to pasture. And the living conditions, one, the key thing there is all livestock must have access to outdoor, to the outdoors and sufficient space for natural behaviors. So that's excluded some things like battery cages and egg production. But that's not to say, again, there are now some very large organic chicken and turkey houses at different places in the country where those animals, you can call it confinement, they're still raised mostly indoors in a barn, but those animals aren't in individual cages. It's sort of a communal open space. And with that, I will speak to any questions. I'm curious, you mentioned the soybeans. So a neighbor has GMO soybeans in their dicamba resistant and say the guy plants a 50 foot barrier even though dicamba can draw two to three miles. So how is that managed? Or is there any testing done or is that just how does that work? Yeah, that's a great question. So let's go with non-dicamba first. Okay. And then dicamba's done a whole new wrench into it. Right. So his name is Charlie Johnson, Madison, South Dakota. If you're someone looking for organic corn, so it is important information is really easy to talk to. Anyways, so Charlie. So before dicamba beans, if he had this organic soybeans neighbor has conventional, it wouldn't happen occasionally that the co-op or, you know, new hired hands, someone got lost and sprayed some of his field. He worked with a certifier rather than say take that whole 40 acres or 80 acres or whatever out of compliance. They would, if they could define, you know, where where got sprayed that it wasn't supposed to take that out of certified status. And then Charlie, he has beef cattle, so he usually just plants it to alfalfa or something for three years. And to the most part, his neighbors, good working relationships with neighbors as an organic farmer is usually pretty critical. He's been doing it for over 30 years, so folks in his area know and he's usually able to work out an arrangement either with the co-op or the neighbor about lost production value on organic corn and soybeans for the next three years. And sorry, and the key thing there was that they'd take a, they'd take what they need to out of compliance rather than like the whole field. And that would be something to ask a certifier about because it's not quite as stringent as like FSA maps, but part of your organic systems plan is also maps of your production fields. And so is the certifier willing to take out to the area that was accidentally sprayed or when they want to take that whole, you know, field out of compliance with, which if it's 120 acre field and only 10 acres got sprayed, that's potentially a lot of money lost if you're talking about $30 with greater panic swings. Okay, so now the dicamba thing, that has caused a lot of heartbreak in the organic world. And initially, like the first two years, you had a lot of organic farmers getting a lot of acres taken out of production if there were any signs of drift. But because dicamba is so prone to drift and also, you know, issues with people not using the appropriate products and creating more problems, I haven't, I don't think, you know, if there's a touch of a symptom on a field, those being taken out of compliance. But the question about residue testing is really interesting. So if there's any suspicion or confirmation of something being accidentally sprayed, definitely should be taken out of compliance. The drift question, I mean, you do have some organic farmers, excuse me, that would self take that out. I mean, they're just, they feel strongly not about the representation of products that they might willingly say, well, that got drifted on, I won't sell it as organic. They may or may not then tell the certifier and I guess I don't know if that's true. So does it all kind of depend on if they tell, like, they expect it or they tell? Tell, yeah. So you'd want to tell because you don't want to lose your whole field if it accidentally got contaminated. They're really easy to deal with your inspectors. Yeah. But so then the residue question is an interesting one because so, organic certifiers, for the most part, don't do residue testing. Like they might, like if they suspect, you know, if you say I'm a lifelong organic farmer and then the inspector, you know, walking around the farm with me finds in the shed, 2-4-D or they can their life is safe, then they might want to do some residue testing and my stuff and they can do that. But in general, certifiers aren't point samples to take, you know, at a bins to take residue samples, but you do have a lot of organic fires that will. And so, and that's a whole kind of another conversation. But a lot of organic sales are done, if not direct to your end user, I mean, it's direct contracting and there will be specs with residues. So you'd be submitting a sample beforehand anyways. Thank you. Yeah, thanks. But the drift question is really messy, unfortunately.