 Hi everyone. So today's, today's community call is dedicated to communicating some of the outcomes that from discussions that we had during the last week's RDA resists data alliance meeting where we are a number of people working on different aspects of DMPs and we had a session that we run. I see some people already that are in this call who were there like Joachim and we talked about different things like how on the technical side what is needed to maintain the standard for DMPs that offers the interpretability and machine action ability. Then we also talked about disciplinary aspects so what we have now in terms of templates and how they are translated in disciplinary needs, domain specific needs and what the group in RDA is working on to facilitate with guidance on domain specific DMPs and also about software. Another discussion that we had and actually what I would like to focus our discussion as well is software management plans because we are moving away from only describing data to also describing software workflows and other types of outputs in the data management plan that traditionally called data management plans. So yeah with that being said just see my notes from that session. Let's see yeah so the community first of all let me say that it was a packed session both online and in the room many people were present so we had a good variety of people like from data stewards, different background data stewards, research support staff, service providers and even researchers providing their input and specifically for software what we all agreed and there's a common say agreement on that but research data is not enough in a DMP and also that we need more awareness to be raised and guidance to be provided to researchers on how to embed best practices and fair principles also in the current templates and the DMPs. We also talked about yeah social and community aspects like misconceptions around open software and that software has you know it's very prone to misconceptions and it's very heavy in terms of properties involved when developing software and managing software and overall there is a fear of people sharing their code and especially we also focused on this discussion about how students perceive sharing their code. Then we talked about a project we talked about if software management is something new and we had some arguments that actually software management plans or software management plans is not something new and a couple of people agreed that a project management software engineer like with agile methodologies and scrum you know those kinds of methodologies secures proper management so it's something that it is embedded in the software practices and then in terms of how we communicate that there were different things we brainstormed a bit if we need one template to cover software or if we need two templates one to cover data and one to cover software so it would be one that incorporates all elements let's say or would be two different or even three different if we're talking about other outputs as well and the example of the open science plan of NASA was was mentioned and also what was also let's say mentioned as an idea was the approach of having a having approaching let's say dmps not as templates but as decision trees and then we also talked about reusability and reusability it's very crucial also to have those elements in software management plans or plans that incorporate software elements let's say to know when there is a description for the methodology used and under what conditions the code is stable for example and having that let's say that recap from this session because we wanted to bring this to this community code because we're already working on different levels on the argos software the open dmps software that argos space and especially for software we are working on creating both a template as I think I mentioned in the previous community call and seeing how we can have both data set descriptions and software descriptions in the in argos of course it supports several templates so dmp in argos can have both elements but I would like to to see and understand what are your challenges especially when you're asked to support or even yourself write how fair your software is taking the horizon europe template for example or another template that you're working on that encourages or even mandates I don't know the description of software so this is why I wanted to bring this to to discussion in our forum here maybe you would like to to save your things about what's also a hard one maybe that you have or how you are doing things with the template that you that you use in argos anyone would like to step in maybe Haikim you want to add something from discussions within rda well I think you summed it up pretty well but sorry I should use the microphone I think you summed it up quite well although there were part of this discussion were in breakout groups and I was in another group where we focused had a more narrow focus on the m a dmp schema the dmp common standard specification together with Marek Sushanek from the DSW and one thing that we were discussing was the need for having affiliation in the schema since there's a user need both from I mean rdm staff and universities to be able to to see the to find easily by way of an API for example all the dmp's output from different sources whether it be argos or or or other dmp template providers to to find those easily and to I mean kind of bibliometrics or scientometrics alignment there so that and there is presently a pull request from Brian Riley at dmp tool for adding that to the schema so that was something that several in our group supported to to I mean to to approve that pull request but to say something personally about software management plans I have to admit I'm a bit skeptical skeptical about that if this would mean for researchers to have to fill out another document so what we've done in our far from from perfect dmp online local template we we included specific questions about software maybe they're not specific enough or detailed enough but I think it could be done and as I perceive argos to be a more flexible and adaptable instrument I think it would be possible to do that in argos as well and do it better than we have succeeded to do at Stockholm University so that's my comment thank you thank you hakim so not adding a whole template like for example the software here is it software heritage there are some templates available for software for example about like big templates not adding a whole template but just cherry picking the questions but better fit um then it's okay again with the software okay thank you thank you very much uh anyone else who would like to say a few things like how do you add software in the dmp what are the elements that you would like to see yes yes a long hi hello um okay yeah uh can you hear me first yeah okay just yes yes i just muted so that we hear you and not me okay good uh so yeah regarding software whether in source code form or compiled or anything our practice basically is to uh just make sure that the researchers who mentioned something about uh processing or analysis or anything like that in the the dmp do not forget that uh well software should also be uh part of their output and see how far they can uh fit that into the the existing sections of the of the dmp really regardless of the of the template on guidelines and on some templates we also stress the fact that this uh this should be considered as well because otherwise many people forget it to the point that uh actually some mathematicians and IT scientists information scientists tend to disregard the dmp entirely because well if they don't produce data they just write software yes but um so yeah in no way regarding the idea of having different templates having a template specifically labeled software output templates wouldn't make it much clearer that this is included as well uh but all the people who already write dmp's that contain code and more conventional data would just start crying but okay yes yet another template even if it's the exact same questions that they have in the other documents so yeah at least when they when they are how should i say that yeah when we look at reference documents uh to uh perhaps help filling in the dmp that's that looks even scarier than it already is but perhaps in an online in a well-designed online platform to create the dmp's it could be integrated in in a smoother way perhaps that's my my thank you thank you very much um for your uh yeah for your input and your perspective on software in epfl at at epfl um anyone else who would like to join us in this provider input can i just comment on what Alan just said so so i i take it you you you you suggest directed templates to to different groups then for for those who are mostly into software and only software and you could have a software management plan templates but uh for for the others it would be enough to to integrate some questions about software because i mean even those that do not themselves produce software most researchers use some kind of software anywhere and it's important to know what kind of software they they use to produce their data to that that's the perspective we had when we designed our templates so and also we uh for for example there are questions about certain types of software that are only in the cloud and if you use that for personal uh for personal for processing personal data it might be an issue with that according to gdpr and so forth so so that's why i think it's important to always have questions about software use but it's another thing when your main business as a researcher is to produce research software yourself uh so maybe those are two different kind of groups that should be addressed with different templates i see so oops sorry yeah i i i agree that these are two slightly different questions i mean one is uh well software has an output and the other one is software more as a tool as a as a method really on the yeah the the question could of course be different but we would not ask the same questions about these two different objects obviously sorry yes thank you so the one would be a template a full template the other one would be just questions that can be incorporated in in a template for dmps like traditional dmps for example right um okay uh and then how many of the other participants like um see that issue like what template do you use and how do you um how do you describe software currently in the template maybe maybe who can see maybe five i could say a few words so ila manino from university of Helsinki and one of the coordinators of finnish dmp tooling dmp community uh we have a national template for all users but universities and research organizations can take or use their own template too and our template is quite quite the same as the science europe templates we have a little bit different order in our templates and it is quite general and their responsibility and guidance how you can describe using software or its software is important you can tell it on your dmp but it's not compulsory to use that or tell that if you don't use so this is quite flexible in these days but i'm very interested to hear what kind what kind of development we have with these software management plans and we have to discuss that in here that is that is my comment thank you very much uh how do you pronounce your name so ila yes okay thank you thank you very much uh right so you follow science europe that's uh that's also good to check what science europe actually is doing and if they have any um like if they have any updated version that they're working on maybe that incorporates more elements and software um that could be done as well right anyone else who would like to jump in right so if not then let me share my screen and show you what we are thinking of and and some things we are thinking of some things we're already working on let me let me see so here is the current version of like the argos website this will change in the future but not websites sorry the tool the dashboard and all the different functions on the software um this will change but it's it's fine you don't have to worry about that not many we're just going to make it more minimal let's say when you access the tool um focusing on what i was saying before about the software management plan so you know that when you started dmp um started from argos you can add the name of course at the description specify the researchers the organization the language specify the funding organizations specify the grant for example uh give a license to the dmp so that others know how to when they find it uh how to use it change the access rights for when uh it should be openly available for example and fourth step is when you can define the templates so here for example we can go with horizon europe right and we're working on a template that will be about software taken from the or templates that already exist we're not going to reinvent the will or do things our own like take what's out there and add it in the in the tool so that you have another not ready yet so i'm not going to show you this but for example let's say that this is this is the software management plan the software template and this is the horizon europe template you can add it and start um start describing the datasets this will change and again i'm communicating that to you because it would be good to also know your input and what you feel about what we're going to do um so this will change it's not going to be only data set because of course you can describe more things than data set uh this was kept as a legacy from from the software when we deployed it so this will be title of dataset software whatever it is that you're describing it's time and then if this is a software then you will be able to select the software management plan and continue with the software management plan uh describing answering the questions or um you know um describing things that are relevant to the software however uh and i think the next community call is going to be about the software manager plan so this is why uh your input is is needed however the horizon europe if i add the datasets and check the horizon europe template already has some um some questions about software as real not not what software but there is this section where uh they encourage us to um describe other types of output and i wanted to know um how you are using this section and what you would like to change uh in in argos because if we're going to have two templates combined for example as i showed you the one will already have some information no actually maybe that solves the issue that you described Joaquin and Alan because we're going to have some minimum questions for software on the horizon europe and then we're going to have a large template for software management plans uh on the other side and if you choose both you can choose the questions that you want to answer basically uh would that make sense would that be enough is this confusing like please please let me know sounds good to me but i'd like to see it in practice before and say anything definite but to me it sounds like the perfect middle ground to to to take okay right thank you because you're putting lots of efforts in uh expanding this uh to to be able to be more flexible as you mentioned Joaquin so we want to do it right then let's see okay so now we're going to change oops okay let's leave so we're going to change what i showed you this screen it's not going to be only about datasets going to be about more things including software and then we're going to have the software management plan as i mentioned okay but uh for from the rest of the people like how do you do have you used the horizon europe for example template stop sharing maybe and go back to the discussions here i don't know Anna Karina Karolindam choosing names that i see in the list the first names that i see in the list maybe you want to show to share something okay then i think the okay i think the way to do it is i understand that you well some of you already would like to seeing software being invaded in in the tool and you want basically more practical more practice to test it so right so i'll i'll dedicate the next community call them to software although i wanted to to have it for horizon europe let's see but either the next one or the one after that will be about software management plans for sure because we will have it and we're already working on that ready and then maybe whoever would like to test it can volunteer and let me know how you feel the flow the workflow when created in dmp works does it sound sensible reasonable okay then right no that was a short community call unless you want to unless you have questions on anything apart from the software management plans i'm happy to to take them right um considering the complicated relations of the transition and the you and its consequences and research programs we don't get to use the horizon europe yes so much but i look forward to starting the argos implementation okay thank you um uh thank you uh we'll uh let you know either the next one or the the the one before that the the one after that will be for for the software management thanks i have a special request since you since you know that i'm working on this test in this test environment on the data set template uh i have had difficulties to add the tables as input could you please show us how to do that i can show it to you again yes no because i've chosen the rich text input but then i i see no tools to create the table in uh okay i can maybe i chose the wrong let me show you so let me go here and show my screen share screen right here okay so this is about uh creating your own template uh and if you go to create your template for example let's say that this is a okay uh so i'm doing this very quickly so that i go where i should okay i'm defining the language and everything then i go to step two which is to create the template sorry something's around me uh then you can create my first chapter so as you know argus for admins or template editors argus it has chapters sections and questions and every chapter should have at least one section and at least one question so chapter one let's say is this one section able this is a section and then other question question let's say it's going to be about data so i can provide a description of course i'm not going to do that now i can select the type so if i want my table first before selecting the the type of the input i need to have in mind what i want the table to have as every column to have as information so for example i would like would say to have the name which is going to be a free text so that they can write the name here is a plain text which i have to name name because this is going to be when i transform this to a table it's going to be the name of the column the input placeholder text going to be the name of the column then i can add more inputs so i can have the name let's say then i want to have them in the data maybe okay let's add it here let's also provide it in a placeholder text so that it becomes the heading of the column let's also add another one for licenses maybe so i want to know the licenses of the data set right let's also add the placeholder text make it also multiple trace let's say that three columns are okay and once i do that i select the multiplicity from here i go up oops i went beyond up i go up and here i can see the number of rows that i want the table to have so i can change it to 10 for example 10 rows and then if i click view inputs in table this box that says view inputs in table and scroll further then now i have the table so it's multiplicity then you go up you check how many what's the maximum amount of rows that you want your table to have and you click the view inputs in table and then you have it and everyone can provide a name select them with the data for this data set and licenses right and do the same for the next and continue like that great thank you so much good no worries any other questions right i see something in the chat from Mauro sorry i cannot open the mic because i'm in the office with a lot of colleagues that's that's all right it's better than i am here by myself so it's good to know that you are surrounded by my colleagues and people that's awesome i've been just hired by the political editorina to provide support in open sciences data management i've already helped some researchers in writing the dmp but nothing regarding software at the moment surely in the future i will have to and i will come back to you on this okay yeah thank you so it's good to see actually many italian institutes and universities um hiring uh data stewards and data support staff and dmp support staff that's really uh that's really nice to see um strongly you're supporting the researchers telling researchers right anything else that you would like to know see or ask because it's not only me asking questions it's also you uh julia says it's because now the researchers have it mandatory also from national funds in italy yes it's a nice uh yeah it's not it's nice to see that julia uh italy being involved um you know just providing infrastructure for that as well right anyone else okay if not then we resume our discussions for next time where at the moment we're working in many many things so next time we'll be either about the template or about other things that we're working or about the horizon europe and new things that we are uh we will be launching for the this specific template so thank you very much everyone uh really nice to to see you and hear you and talk to you very soon bye