 Awesome, well hey everybody, if you're listening live, you might have heard us a little as I got us going, I don't know exactly when the recording started, but we are so excited to be here with you this afternoon, at least in Mountain Time, it's the afternoon, it's about 70 degrees here in Boulder, and just a gorgeous day, and I'm so excited to be with one of my favorite intellectuals, Dr. Mansour. So good afternoon and welcome, and great to have you here, Dr. It's a wonderful pleasure, thank you Dr. Karahan, and likewise, it's just such a pleasure to be with you, though not in quite a wonderful day here in Toronto, it's a blessed day, but it's kind of murky, kind of, the sunshine isn't there, and by the way, somewhere in this conversation, we're going to be talking about how important that is for us, despite self-isolation, despite quarantining, to ensure that our listeners are getting enough sunshine. I love it, I want to talk about what other people aren't talking about, because there's a ton of stuff out there, there's stress, anxiety, fear, I want to bring some positive news, I want to talk about what you can do to control, whether it's your fear and anxiety, or whether it's your health or your immune system, and I'd love just to, if you want to just give a little bit of an intro on kind of how you've been framing this whole pandemic. Sure, so, you know, I wrote a paper on this, almost actually about a month ago, and it was kind of just predictive, because at the time we weren't quite sure where we were dealing with things, and not saying that it was anything special, but one of the things I did highlight in this, looking back at it, somewhat predictive realm, was I said, you know, there are going to be a few things about this corona pandemic, back then we weren't sure if it was a pandemic or not, but there were going to be a few things. Number one, trying to keep it positive, okay? So we've got to understand the numbers, and a lot of folks don't appreciate what the numbers are, and they're getting a lot more hysterical or concerned when they read these percent mortality numbers. So the first thing I said was, not saying that this is not a dangerous virus, no, and not saying that there's a subset of the population for which this virus is going to be certainly something quite severe or could be something quite severe, but for the first thing I want to kind of point out to the listeners is this, when you read or you see that a virus is killing 2% of the population, let's just, for example, the first thing that we've got to understand is that 2% was computed based on the number of people that were positively tested, and of course those people were positively tested because for whatever reason they were either ill enough or privileged enough in some way to go to a testing center or lucky enough and be tested. My point is this, for every 100 people that are tested, such that, God forbid, two people pass away, there are 500, 200, 1,000, we actually, we know that it's significantly more number of people that were positive that do have the virus, they do have the virus, and clearly did not get to the point of severity and certainly not to the point of mortality. So just by no means diminishing or underestimating that this is something we have to control, that it is concerning, but it just puts, it just allows the population to breathe a little easier when they see 2%, but really understand that that 2% is in all likelihood an overestimation. That's the first thing that I'd like to say. Yeah, and if you don't mind, I'm going to comment really quick on that because I remember the first week I was doing virtual patients on a Wednesday, 10 patients in my day, and three of the 10 had presumptive COVID-19. What I mean by that is they had the classic story clinically symptoms, everything lined up. They did not get tested because they were not high-risk, or did our state recommend it. And my first thought was just like you, we knew this, but I thought, okay, that's 30% of my day. That means that about a hundredfold more than what we're seeing, probably more, but just guessing based on my little tiny snippet. And then we see Germany who's testing, testing, testing, and their percentage is about a 10-fold, at least lower, in mortality rate, but we think this virus is probably doing the same thing around the world. So totally agree with what you're saying. And initially people were asking the questions, what are the Germans doing differently to keep their mortality so low? Well, not saying that they aren't doing beneficial things, not saying that there aren't other probable health parameters, but just starting with the simple statistics that they tested more people. They confirmed more people had COVID, which we're not doing with some other countries or not, and therefore they had a much larger denominator, such that when you put the numerator of how many people, God forbid, passed away, their percentage seems so much lower. So for the listeners out there, this is a serious virus. It's more serious than the common flu, for a percent of people. For a majority of individuals, if you do get this virus, you'll probably end up with something about the severity of a flu. By the way, there are unique features of this virus, absolutely unique features, but just trying to get the message, however we frame this, that we do need to frame this so that individuals understand, there are people out there reading articles of people, God forbid, Dr. Karnaan, committing suicide because they found out they had a positive result, and they haven't even waited to understand what's gonna happen next. You know? And these, yes, they're sometimes sensationalized, one-off news pieces, but we've gotta understand the second point that I like to make, which is this. This is the first virus, mind you, that is affecting at a societal level, the way that, you know, for most of us, if we're in our mid to late teens and we're living in North America, we've not had something that shook our social consciousness like this for about a generation. And I'm even including the horrific incidences of 9-11. You know, in terms of societally, societally broad, the entire swats of society in our consciousness because of the constant newsreel, because of the constant media around this, we're getting, we're actually seeing, Dr. Karnaan, a little bit of an unwanted clinical trial playing out here. What is this clinical trial? It's that we're taking, and let me frame this to you this way. I'm gonna use this unique subset to drive home a point. What's the age group that, again, not saying they can't have severe symptoms, but clearly they're nowhere as nowhere as at risk than the older population. We know that the younger folks, not saying that some younger folks can't get ill, we'll get to that shortly, but for the most part it is clear that if we look epidemiologically, the younger population, let's say in those teens, younger teens and teens, pre-teen teens, are not getting as severe symptoms, generally speaking. Now there are gonna be some of those individuals that have pre-existing health conditions, which we can all list, whether they have autoimmune deficiencies, I should say immune deficiencies, whether they're dealing with things like diabetic cancer and they're currently on immune suppressing reagents, whether they've got an organ transplant. So they've, of course, they've got to be in immune suppressing drugs. Clearly those are unique individuals. But here's the point. In that young group, we're not focusing on them because they're not getting ill. But this young group, societally, they're not in schools, schools have closed, they're isolating at home, they're isolating at home with parents that are probably not at their best because of fears, because of financial fears, for all the right reasons, for all the right, for all the wrong right reasons, okay? And within this teenage population, societally, there are always gonna be those teenagers that are at risk for anxiety, at risk for depression. There is because of final. Right? There's a little bit of a reverb, Dr. Kanahan, can you hear me? Yes, I can. Okay, sorry. And what is happening now is this entire, what percentage, how many teenagers do you think we've got in the US? What's the number? I don't know. Whether they're 10% of the population, 15, 20% of the population, we're talking about a few million, tens of millions of teenagers, each with their own genetic predispositions for anxiety, for neurologically based for depression, and we're not addressing the concerns they're feeling from being isolated from their peers, only having access to social media. This is just one example of the, what I call ripple effect of this pandemic that we're not paying enough attention to, and granted, we have to pay attention to the acute infections for sure, but some group within the healthcare community, we must start speaking up and alerting parents, alerting our communities that look, our teenagers haven't been put through this before, and we've got to speak to them, we've got to ask how they're feeling, we've got to watch out for, are they showing those aberrant signs of anxiety, depression, they're locked in their bedrooms? That's just the first in a series of what I call ripple effects. Would you agree, Dr. Kanahan? I would totally agree, and we've looked at child at ASA score before, and the data clearly shows there's not one risk factor that's greater than childhood diverse events, which means the social isolation in the two-year-old who can't understand and the four-year-old who can't understand is significant, and we have to factor that in. In addition, community, touching, hugging, being in close contact with those that we love is shown to boost your immunity, so we're not into the fact these things are like social isolation, how they affect the immune system. And I'm not saying we should be doing things differently right now. I'm not saying go on, hug everybody you meet in the spirit, please don't get me wrong, but what I'm saying is there are other factors in the equation that we are not looking at that are equally as important, and at the end of this pandemic, we're gonna look back and we're gonna say, you know what, we did some things right, this is what we did right. We did a lot of things wrong, and this is what we did wrong, and hopefully next time we'll do better, because people are experienced in post-traumatic stress. People are experienced, the children, I have a colleague with a two-year-old daughter, she said, I don't know how to explain to my daughter why she can't play with her friends. She doesn't understand, and she just gets angry or sad, she doesn't, and there's no way to tell her what's going on. I don't understand, I mean, I don't know how to tell her why she can't hug her grandmother. Like these things are really a big deal, and those of you with children are all dealing with it, and we're not talking about that piece of this. Again, there's reasons why we're all doing what we're doing. I'm all on board, but I think that the bigger picture is, how do we reduce stress and help our immune system in that way? How do we reduce social isolation, and the fear, and the depression, and the anxiety that that creates? How do we take care of our children who may or may not understand this, or who all of a sudden are away from their college friends and completely isolated? These are real issues, and we need to have, thank goodness psychologists and those kind of therapists are still available and essential. I would highly recommend if you're concerned for your family member, for your marriage, or your children, that you get connected virtually with one of these professionals that can help you. So critical. Absolutely, and you know, here's the thing. Again, not diminishing, not please. No listener think I'm diminishing the concern and the severity that this virus can and will have for some individuals, but infections do come and go. These children, and the reason I sort of highlighted the teenage population, because there are trigger points at places and developments, such as pubescent children, that a trauma at that time, at that particular time during their development will set the stage for mood and behavior for the ability to screen and respond to other stresses. It will set the stage for the years to come. And so again, and again, usually, this is happening at the individual level, the teenager that was bullied, the teenager that was growing up in a home that had some marital strife, and you have these isolated, you know, important but isolated cases. Here, it's happening societally. It's happening across millions of children, tens of millions of children. And it's worldwide, whenever you have a fever. And it's worldwide. Right, when you have a fever. And it's being doubled down because of course it's not just turning, you know, we no longer live in a time where the family gathers around at 7 p.m. to turn on the one channel and watch it news. It's the news 10 ways, 100 ways from Sunday. And these children, think of it, they're in isolation. Most are in isolation with some type of personal social device. So now rather than human connection, it's you so beautifully pointed out. And look at the connectivity. It's not just about the mental framework. It's right back into the physiologic immune response. Yeah, exactly. Quote study after study with oxytocin, which is raised when we touch people, human touch. And so we're losing some of these pieces of our physiology by isolating. Again, not saying we should be doing anything different, but we have to take it into account. I just want to call out because I see you guys are listening, you're commenting. Jessica, nurse health coaches are here to help. Thank you. Joy Miller, wonderful professional. Thank you. Thank you guys for listening and for your comments. I just want to make sure that you know we know you're there. You're listening and please continue to comment, share your questions, share this feed with your friends. I think it's really, really important information to get out. Let's shift to solutions. Let's shift. Okay, we're in social isolation. We're not saying we should be doing anything different for now. We need to obey our government in our areas. That's 100%. But what do we do for when we are in this situation? What are some tools that we can give our listeners? So just absolutely to the solution, but I want to highlight now two things so we can compare contrast, i.e., one way of doing it versus a different way. The first thing now is quickly contextualize what happens when we're in social isolation. We're typically not getting out and about as much as we should, typically. Now, not all of us live in homes where we can have at least some degree of sunlight. There are how many of parts of our community in our apartment buildings, apartment buildings that are not getting the type of sun exposure. If you're not getting that type of sun exposure, your vitamin D levels are going down. No two ways about it. Vitamin D, radically important, directly, radically important, back into your immune system, into your mood and behavior, into your circadian rhythms. What are we doing when we're home? We're binge watching Netflix into past our typical bedtime. So now we're throwing off our circadian rhythms. Your circadian rhythm, when you go to sleep, when you get up, the normalcy and the repetitive nature of that is also radically important in how our body responds with cortisol, which, by the way, leaps right back to our immune response. So taking that first piece and now what do we do about it? So we're home. We do the social, we are practicing social isolation. It is necessary and especially in some of our communities, but that doesn't mean that we throw our circadian rhythm out the door. It doesn't mean that we can't at least try to keep our family members, our loved ones, keep up a healthy circadian rhythm. Try to get some type of sun exposure. Try to get these things that allow your body to stay, quote, unquote, in as healthy a circadian rhythm as possible. The human body was designed to optimally work based on optimal circadian rhythms. Self-isolation quarantining, one of the first thing that goes out the window is our circadian rhythms. So Dr. Kanahan, you've forgotten more about this than I know. Please comment to the audience of how important this is and what are some of the things we can do to maintain? A, why the circadian rhythm is so important and what we can do to keep it as healthy as possible. Oh, I love this because I'm gonna tell you some things that I do, not saying that you have to do what I do here, but I found some of these things to be really, really practical. First of all, this may shock you. I have not turned on my television for over six months, period. I do not watch television. I do not watch the news. And guess what? I wake up, I'm optimistic, I'm happy, I'm not oblivious. What I do is I get my information from selective sources like the CDC, like the medical boards, like the government. I get information, but I selectively choose on my phone, all of my alerts, Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, et cetera, et cetera, all of my alerts are turned off. So that means, guess what? That phone doesn't control me, I control it. I go to it when I look at Facebook, I choose when, but I never get those little ding, ding, dings because I set up your immune, your number one, your immune system, it's a stress alert. Number two, it sets up a dopamine reward system. Do you know how the lotteries and the gambling in Las Vegas, Nevada, or anywhere else gets people hooked? It's a dopamine reward system. So every time you hear that ding of an alert on your phone, your mind goes, oh, I gotta check that. It interrupts your train of thought, whatever you're doing productive with your family or your work or whatever else, you go to that. And it's a reward circuit because about 10 times that you do that, something really cool is there. So that's the way to create an addiction. So if you wanna take back control, you take off the alerts on your phone, you can stop watching the news and guess what? You're gonna know the weather. I go outside and find out what the weather is every day. I literally do not watch the news and it's been the most best thing for my mental health ever and people are shocked because I have to run a business, I have to make decisions for employees, but I can find the information that I need from reliable sources and I control it. I don't have anything else controlling my attitude, my mood and I don't always trust the mainstream sources to give me the factual information. They're gonna pick and choose what keeps people listening. So first thing, turn off the news. Second thing, turn off the alerts on your phone. Third thing, every day, at least twice a day, get outside unless it's raining or snowing or you can't. I agree with Dr. Munser that vitamin D, if you can in your environment, go barefoot on the grass. That earth thing will actually give you access to the earth electromagnetic core which helps our physiology. It's like recharging our batteries. If you have puppies or loved ones that are in your isolation circle, be with them, spend time with them, play games with them, all of those things, as far as your sleep patterns. So men may not be the same as us women, but us women, we usually go to bed, we get up, we do a shower, hair, makeup, et cetera. During this time of isolation, if you're working from home and not doing Facebook lives or videos, you may think, you know what, I don't have to wash my hair, I don't have to shower. I'm gonna stay in my pajamas all day. You know what, I could be alone at home and never get on video. And every single day, 100% of the time, I get up at the same time, I make my coffee. I sit and meditate and sometimes read some sort of text or spiritual information in the morning. So set my day, I set my tone, same as I would if I was going to work. Then get my coffee, take my shower, I do my hair, I do my makeup. I put on my clothes yesterday, I didn't go anywhere and I wore a dress and a cute little jacket. And it was just for me. But you know what it does is it gives my mood to be feeling like I'm involved in life, I'm involved in people, I'm the same person I was. There's something a little depressing about staying in your pajamas and not washing your hair. Like for me, I kind of feel gross. And maybe I'm a little obsessive about it, but that's a piece of my happiness and my joy is the same routine. And then the other thing is if you're sitting around all day, you tend to get tired, you might take a nap and then you end up staying up late watching. I've not turned on Netflix, I haven't watched a movie. Again, you don't have to be like me, I just, I'd rather read or educate myself, but I choose to use activities like audio audible books, reading regular books, going outside, learning a new activity. A lot of my friends have learned arcs or crafts, coloring, years and years ago, I said, I don't have time for that. But the last year, as I've learned to be still, I bought a ton of coloring books and crayons and pencils. So when I need to get creative, I'll pull out my coloring books in color. Those are the kind of things that are gonna energize me during this time and to reconnect you to your purpose and your meaning. And what I've found is I've actually been more productive, more busy, more ideas, more new things for the clinic that are happening now in this time of pandemic than ever before. Dr. Kanahan, we could literally have just stopped right there just because look, what we took is we took self-isolation, we took quarantining and we just gave it two different versions. One version that is entirely depressed depressive to your immune system and depressive to your mental function as per the sloping around in the pajamas. And again, please to the listeners out there, we know that there's so many individuals dealing with financial stresses, dealing with the worry over loved ones that did go on to get quite ill. So we're not making light of the feeling of trauma over this, but it's, as Dr. Kanahan has pointed out, it's the feeling that you can have some ownership of doing something, you particularly, choices that you don't make, choices that you do make, just that empowerment. And don't think of it as just a trivial exercise because it's gonna go right back, affect your immune system, affect your stress levels, Dr. Kanahan. There's this little thing going on. I've heard about it that Netflix now they can trace or they can score the most watched movies. Do you know what's one of the most watched movies in Canada now on Netflix? Contagion. So what are people doing? They're A, messing with their circadian rhythms, staying up binge watching things, but they're watching the very things that are now repopulating in their consciousness. Fair, oh my God, the world is ending. Well, you know, there's a very clear mechanism to a post-traumatic stress. What happens is as a child, you might have not got ice cream when your sister did or some minor thing or some major thing. Some of you have experienced horrendous trauma in your childhood or early in life. I don't wanna make light of that, but what happens is these peaks on trauma, they get populated together. So we have another peak that reminds us of an old trauma. It gets tagged together so that the nervous system is like, whoa, that feels very traumatic. I'm gonna feel the same way I did when I was two or four or six or eight. And these spikes, they get populated and they get tagged. And so another trauma like this, like being quarantined or being away from family or friends or losing a job or we're all dealing with difficult situations and they get tagged to old things. And if you put on a movie that's gonna scare the, you know what out of you, it's gonna tag and it's gonna reinforce the trauma. When you break that trauma cycle by saying, guess what, I still have control. I can choose to get up in the morning to shower, to put on makeup. I can choose to take a bath at night, take care of myself. I can choose to color or do something creative. I can choose to learn a new skill. I could choose to, maybe I wasn't going to the gym, but now that I'm home, I can choose to do an online workout every day and actually get myself in better physical shape than I've been before this. Like you can choose to take the opportunity. And I wanted to mention the other day, cause we keep talking about, you know, we're not making light of the situation, but here's something important. The other day I was walking, it was seven o'clock at night and it was maybe a week or so ago, there was a lot of fear. I had my headphones on, I had some fun music and I just felt like dancing. And I kind of, I was alone. I just looked around, no one was there. I'm like skipping and dancing with a little girl. And then the first second I stopped and first of all, I looked and there was no one else out there and I thought, what in the world? Why are nobody out? It's a beautiful evening at seven p.m. But the second thought was, is it okay to be full of joy? Like in this time, is it okay for me to still have joy and happiness? And all of a sudden I was struck by the fact of, is it okay for me to be happy when people are suffering? And guess what? There is room for both. We can, just because I was happy and full of joy and skipping in the evening on a beautiful night does not take away from your suffering. And it's okay for me to have happiness or for me to have sadness and for you to do the same. And I think there's almost this guilt. I felt it about, is it okay for me to have joy or us to talk about solutions and talk about joy and talk about positivity. Is it okay? We don't have to apologize, Dr. Munser, because it is okay because we can bring light and hope to those who are suffering and by us, hopefully modeling. And granted, I have days where I'm overwhelmed. I have days where I'm stressed. So I'm not all joy and bubbles, but I realized on that walk, it's okay. For me to be happy and joyful in the midst of suffering because there's so much heaviness, there's so much anxiety. We need a little bit of that infusion. If I can be the one, I will gladly be the one to encourage you. Again, could not have even that anecdote that what it means, it could have been the place we stopped. I wanna add obviously the geneticists in the room, if you think to yourself that you know what, I don't get worked up over looking at something like contagion or something else. That's not me, it doesn't bother me. Please understand that if you're in a family context and you're all indoors now, and so of course you've got this sense of nobody else, where are you gonna go? Please understand there are profound genetic precursors that indicates why one person might emotionally fixate in something. They're either to be gene, they're dopamine metabolism, rate of dopamine metabolism, rate of no adrenaline metabolism. So my point is this, underlining what is going on, we might have individuals who are saying, oh, this is not bothering me, I could look at this, I could, but others around you, your children, your spouse, your others around you, we will tend to mimic more what we see, we will tend to imbibe what others are doing around us. So even if you're not doing it for yourself because you think it's not impacting you, it can certainly, there are genetic classifiers that superbly differentiate between risks of that, as you said, linking past fears, linking past anxieties, so that now that's the whole point of PTSD. PTSD is that person now, as they were walking down, having God forbid been deployed to horrible parts of the world, they've come back to their home's town, they're walking down the street, a sirene of an ambulance goes by, nothing to have necessarily been done with them, they're safe, but that links to when the sirene was involved, when they were involved with something. So please, to the listeners out there, take this seriously to your loved ones and to your children. For me, my passion here is as adults, to some degree, more or less, we have the tools or we should have the tools, or at least we have more tools than our youth, our children, that are watching at how we are behaving and they're being exposed to how we behave far longer, far more than the average, they're not within the context of their normal situation of friends and connectivity and the classroom recesses and playing. We've got to be as adults more mindful of this component and as Dr. Kanahan has pointed out, there's a lot that can be done. Now, Dr. Kanahan, the second, here's what we're doing, here's how to do it right, here's how to do it wrong. So, you know, it amazed me and I looked at what was happening. What was the first thing when the panic buying started happening, when everyone said, we've got to go prepare to go lock ourselves away. I'm not speaking of the toilet paper, let's put out the side. What was disappearing from the grocery shelves? It was all of the non-perishable foods, right? So it was the pastas and the rice, it was the canned foods, chuck full of salt and preservatives and so on and so forth. So here's the other factor now. People just naturally think, and again, please, I am not scuffing that if that's what you can afford then you have to try to get some nutrition and nourishment for your family in these times for prolonged periods. But we've got to stop for a moment here, Dr. Kanahan, and remind the population, what are the two biggest comorbidities for poor outcome if you contracted COVID? Hypertension and type two diabetes. And what are the very foods we're stucking up on when we go into quarantine? Foods that are preserved with chuck fills of salt, foods that have chuck fills of processed sugar, okay? And by the way, we're at home, we're snacking when we're binge watching the Netflix. So we are creating a physiology in quarantine that is the exact physiology that leaves you ill-prepared to handle a virus. And by the way, for the majority of us, we will be able to handle the virus when we have been exposed to it. Correct. Yeah, and even more so, what I've found to be fascinating, I was teaching this week into a group of doctors, teaching on metabolic endotoxemia. Now that's a really long, fancy word to say, it's when gut bacteria leak from your gut lumen, the tube inside your gut, through a leaky gut membrane into your bloodstream. And this LPS molecule is just a coating of bacteria. And guess what? It is the number one risk factor for the things that we see that we just talked about, heart disease, diabetes, obesity, and then all kinds of mood disorders too. So insomnia, anxiety, depression, even bipolar and schizophrenia. And guess what? That LPS, when it goes into the bloodstream, it triggers the exact same cytokine cascade as we are seeing with the virus, which IL-6 and IL-8 and TNF-alpha and some of these cytokines. So this exact same, if you are dealing with leaky gut, some of my, I'm doing this for my page because I know so many of my patients and clients have gut issues and have these kinds of risk factors. And if you're eating the kinds of foods, like the processed foods, the foods full of glyphosate, like GMO based corn and soy processed products, or high sugary things, or even a lot of alcohol, or a lot of ibuprofen or NSAIDs, or all of these things that create more leaky gut, you're contributing towards that inflammatory process that is the same thing that's almost, it's priming you for if you were God forbid to get the virus, that priming would make you more at risk for a worse cytokine response. So your gut does matter, the food does matter. This might be the most important thing you can do. So what do I do and what do I recommend? I'm in the aisles where there's plenty of food, where there's leafy greens, there's fresh broccoli and Brussels sprouts and cauliflower and peppers and carrots. I'm in the fresh aisle and I'm thinking, okay in a week or two, these things are gonna go bad and they won't have food, but I'd rather have fresh, healthy food and then I freeze some of it too so that I have some things. One of the tricks that I found because I literally don't eat processed foods at all, I don't have one can in my pantry. So if we really get into trouble guys, I might need your donations because all I have is fresh and frozen, but what I learned is like, okay, smoothies, a good quality protein powder from whey or collagen or some organic pee or rice source, if you have that on hand, that saves very well. And if you throw that in a blender with leafy greens, you kale or spinach, et cetera, and then fresh blueberry, strawberries, et cetera, you can freeze all those things, even kale which typically wouldn't freeze and cook, it's awful, but if you throw it into smoothies, frozen it works. So what I did to prepare for something since I don't have any canned foods at all, is I froze kale and spinach and I froze blueberry, strawberries, bananas, all kinds of fruits. I have protein powders and I have coconut milk that's in containers that won't go bad. So I literally have, I could get by for a month or two with protein smoothies if I had to. And if you wanna avoid the canned foods, that's a great way to do it. I just found that to be an incredible, helpful way because I was like, what am I gonna do? I don't eat canned foods. Right? So again, we're faced with a situation that we do need to do what we're doing, the self-isolation, but as Dr. Conorhan has just said, the way you go, literally, there's a fork here. We can go down the, well, let's go stock up on the bread and the flour and the pasta and the, and please, I'm not decrying if you have to do some of those things, but just think about it. It's not trivial. It's going to create, and it's not for one day, guilty day, your treat day. This is not happening, not one day, not one week, not two weeks, a month, two months even. What you can do in terms of shifting the body, either positively or negatively over the course of 30 days, 40 days, we'll have ripple effects for months, if not years to come. And so again- Instead of this being like something that's happened to us, we can take back control and we can use it as an opportunity to make our lives better. So I love that. And Dr. Munzer, I love, I know we didn't talk a lot about genetics, but I know you wanted to talk a little bit about the genetics of this. So why don't you dive in a little bit in like 10 minutes or so about the genetics, and then I want to talk both of us about the sequelae that we might see afterwards. Yes. So, you know, someone asked me and I was, Jill and I were speaking before, Dr. Kahn and I were speaking before we went live. And I said, you know, look, not trying to be the, you know, on screen, optimist always, but there was a silver lining for me in this pandemic, which has been traumatic to so many, but the silver lining amongst many others that Dr. Kahn has mentioned is we as a community, as a society, we're going to be more mindful of our health now moving forward. Why? Every single one with rare exception of the individuals who go on to develop severe progression of this infection up to and including mortality, had underlining metabolic dysfunction, i.e. underlining health concerns that in and of themselves are things that we can impact, things that we can impact with healthier living, healthier lifestyle choices. So what I've been doing, Dr. Kahnhan, is I've been using this as an opportunity to remind people, not about the genetics, people keep asking them, talk to them soon, is there a genetic variation in the ACE2 gene that makes the virus more likely to enter the human cell now? And I've actually said, by the way, from an infection perspective, there does not seem to be variations in the ACE2 gene, as far as we currently know, that is allowing the virus easier or less easy entry into the human cell. And even if there were, you know what I would say? I would say that's not where you should be focusing. What you should be focusing is understanding what are your innate genetically starting, your innate tendencies to develop hypertension, cardiovascular concerns, pulmonary concerns, for the first time in your life, own that, own that and understand that you, optimizing your health, diminishing those symptomologies, aren't just going to be a healthier version of yourself. That healthier version of yourself is precisely the version that can deal with this virus in a way that, by the way, most of us, if we were healthy, we can deal with that virus. I can't say that enough. I can't. And yes, we're seeing, we are seeing media reports of that strapping young man or woman saying, I never smoked. I was a CrossFit runner and I got this virus and it laid me up in the hospital. I am not diminishing the suffering of that particular person, which here's the truth of it. Number one, those are far rarer events. And again, our media wants to find those events, as is their job. Fine. Number two, those individuals certainly may have outwardly been healthy, but did they take a moment? Did they ever understand that they were latent health concerns that they want to work? And the only way you're going to detect latent health concerns, and I'm not here to sell a genetic test, that's where genetics comes in so that you can understand what are your latent concerns? What are the symptomologies of latent concerns that you can do something about it sooner rather than later? Every single one of those things that Dr. Karahan has mentioned here about watching out, about what that leaky gut then triggers, pro-inflammatory cascades that we can do so much about if we knew our individual tendencies. So to conclude, Dr. Karahan, here what I mean is there are genetics not related surprisingly to the infection per se, but to the underlying physiology that I hope there's a wake-up call to our societies that we begin to own our health more than we've ever owned it before. Yes, gosh, I couldn't agree more with you. I just, I love that. And I love Dr. Mansour as part of the DNA company and they have some great, I know when we first talked about my genetic test, I was like, wow, this is amazing. Really, really good information. And I love it from my patients too because it helps on pathways as far as figuring out what kinds of things we're all so unique. That's part of this is we don't have a one-size-fits-all. One of our comments here from Steve, asked about, have you seen the theory of hypoxia lung inflammation? This is a whole another can of words. This is, this is. I'll tell you what, I'm writing, you know, I try to bring you the latest information. I am working on writing a very science-based article on this right now, it will be out next week. So I do believe there's some validity to this hypoxia. Bottom line is what we're seeing is very different from the classic ARDS in lung inflammation. And instead what we're seeing is we're seeing this low oxygen because the oxidation of the iron. So basically your hemoglobin is red blood cells. They're like little boats in a river carrying your oxygen around to your body. And this virus particularly likes to attach to the iron there and decouple it from that little boat. The iron is critical there for carrying the oxygen. When that iron is decoupled that iron becomes a radical oxygen or sorry, a reactive oxygen species that causes massive collateral damage around the body. And this is a really big part of the problem because what we're seeing looks a lot more like altitude sickness. And if you're any wonder, as I looked at this, a lot of the ski resorts here in Vale and Aspen, there was a huge percentage of people that got it that were at higher altitude in the beginning. And in Colorado, those cities that are higher altitude like 8, 10,000 feet are shifting their patients to lower altitude because they know they're doing better in lower altitude because they don't have to worry so much about those boats carrying the oxygen. This is a big part of it. And I think as we investigate and dig further we're gonna find out what's going on. The other thing that's very interesting is it's not so much the fluid, the inflammation that's all part of it. But what's happening, what we're thinking is happening is at the tissue level that hypoxia, the lack of oxygen is really what's causing the damage. So maybe in the future, some of our treatments will revolve around how do we get oxygen to the tissues? Because a ventilator without getting oxygen to the tissues is not gonna be the answer. So this brand new hot off the press, you haven't heard it anywhere else, but I promise you stay tuned to the page, stay tuned for the blog because I literally, I had a two hour meeting this morning with my researcher group and we are on it. You're gonna hear next week about more about this. Dr. Kanahan, I've been writing and I've been asked to write addendums to the first letter that I released, which again was somewhat very predictive of a month ago. Literally this topic was my next addendum. And so it- Love it, you and me both were there. You know literally if we share because you've nailed all of those points and again here to the viewers and listeners, the individuality with which we deal with ROS is the reactive oxygen species and what we call our redox balance and what that does to then cascade into inflammation, this is going to be key. So just so that you, all the listeners, we have hugely important and expressed genetic differences, ethnically, so different individuals, different geographies to how we deal with oxidative stressors. And when you, when those ion, those heme groups become decoupled from the erythrocytes, they're marauding very potentially dangerous ROSs, contributing ROSs, not to mention that then the decoupled erythrocytes themselves behave in a way that they shouldn't be behaving. And so we get here and this is where this virus is, you know, we've made analogies, but we meaning in the scientific community, this is where we've got to be careful the analogies we've been making to previous flu-like viruses or even previous coronaviruses. This particular bugger, this little one is being a bit naughty in these unique ways. But to understand the particulars of it is to A, understand, do we just jump in the same old, you know, is it ventilators? Is it just oxidizing the lungs when we don't realize where is the inflammation? Is it at the level, are we even getting the oxygen into the body in the first place? So whomever asked that question, brilliant question. That's right, I'm so excited to hear because I know you and I were on the cutting edge and literally this morning I was like emergency meeting, this information has to get out and I'll tell you why. Because because of this information it explains the things that I already know are likely going to help. IV vitamin C, IV vitamin C when you can keep the frequency of dose either liposomaly orally or IV at a frequent level so that intracellular level of vitamin C is high in your body, that will neutralize the free radicals of these iron oxidation. We're gonna see some relief. Surprise, surprise. Plaquenil hydroxyquinone that we've seen on the news with zinc, it's a zinc ionophore which means it allows zinc to go into the cells. Intracellular zinc is also critical for restoring homeostasis in the body. So is magnesium. So these nutrients that we've known to work now they actually make sense in light of the virus and I think I really believe if we can give the message out and the data out and build the science on this we're gonna see a shift in medicine. You guys all know what I stand for. I'm all about finding root cause and reversing disease. To me this is a really exciting opportunity if we get it right is there's some great solutions and most of them are nutrients. They're things like a glutathione raising glutathione status either oral or nebulized where you could breathe it into your lungs. They're things like hyperbaric oxygen which can push oxygen into the tissues. They're things like ozone which can also create more oxygen and kill viruses and things. And these things aren't on the nightly news. No, no. But we're gonna bring them to you. We're gonna talk about them. And I always feel like a lot of these new things if they're fairly safe and we don't yet have a 30,000 human randomized controlled trial I'm willing to try this with informed consent with patients and the data is good. The data is really strong. I've got it. Bless you for saying that Jill because here's the other silver line that I've seen. Listen viewers listeners. Is there are there snake oil charm things that really have no business being spoken about in health but they're peddled by individuals intentionally unintentionally? The answer is yes. But once and for all our societies have to wake up to the fact that there are a plethora of well-studied uses of micronutrients, vitamin C, how many times have you had the average patient Dr. Carnahan so confused with is there any real benefit to vitamin C because I always hear these articles that it's never been shown to help with this. There are meta analyses showing the benefit of vitamin C especially being used IV in this current SARS-CoV-2 infection. So just to the listener, two things. Do not be swayed by things that just really clearly are have no place in medicine. But on the other hand, also open up and open your minds and recognize that there are things that let's see how to say this carefully. There are things that are quite easily accessible that are not coming with massive price tags that are not controlled by certain agencies that also have benefit to the human body and refreshing and having leaders like Dr. Carnahan bring you this so that you know it's being vetted. This is gonna be something Dr. Carnahan that you have a responsibility of doing as you always do. I wanna add one thing, Dr. Carnahan and here I'm adding one plus one and getting four but I can't, the researcher in me the geneticist in me, I can't let this go. When we notice the strong correlation and by the way, there was a strong correlation when we look at the fatalities in places like the South, South of the US where there were by the way, fatalities that were definitely seeming to be higher than the rest of the country. What are we seeing? We're seeing obesity, we're seeing metabolic disease. We're seeing type two diabetes. One of the things we do when we look at should the way your body processes sugar your hemoglobin A1C measurement. Well, what is this? That same heme group has the ability of attracting and binding glucose over time. We're now finding out that the virus is decoupling the heme group from the erythrocytes. I'm personally asking the question, is that happening easier? Is the hemoglobin being turned into a reactive oxygen species easier in the presence of glucose? Because to me, those two things are just, they're too glaring when you see the increased risk factors for type two diabetics with poor outcome with the hypoxia. So this is something, and again, researchers aren't asking these questions because they don't think functionally. They just think, you know, and so Dr. Karna, I'll be writing some information. We probably should share our information and get something solid out there. I would love that because I know, I respect you so much as a brilliant clinician, researcher, geneticist, and let's share those. I will share your information here so you stay tuned to this page. You'll get Dr. Montser's information. Of course, you'll get my blog too. What I'm gonna try to do with the blog is write it on a level that any person who doesn't have a science background can understand. And I'm sure Dr. Montser will take a whole another level. So both of us are gonna bring you that information. And I really think it's important as this virus progresses, because what that means is there are solutions, really, really good solutions that are gonna keep you healthy and keep you out of the hospital. Dr. Karnahan, well, I mean, this is why, like speaking with you, I learn every time I speak with you, I learn so much more. I'm not sure I've contributed anything, but just being able to share this with you, share this with your audience, bring back something that is not trivially, just optimism for optimism's sake, but to really show that there's an ownership here, not trivializing things. And you know, you know what's gonna leave, after all of those, you know, science and clinical things we've spoken about, I'm gonna leave this conversation today with the anecdote that you gave about you listening to that music and feeling happy. And that discordance, that sense of, can I actually feel a degree of happiness? Can I feel happy even though there are reasons to be sad? That anecdote that you shared to your community, I hope your community that listened to this realized, A, how personalized that was, and how powerful that was, that more than anything else is what I'm gonna leave this conversation with. Thank you for sharing that with me. Oh, thank you. Thank you, thank you. And thank you everyone for listening and joining us. We had so many conversations and lots more comments than questions, but this recording will be live. You can come back and watch it. You can share it with friends. I hope that you found it really informative. And if you did, please share it because this information needs to drown out some of the negativity. And I will say this, things are changing on a moment by moment basis. So what you hear today, in a week I might say, well, guess what, this changed a little, I learned more information, but I promised to always bring you the up-to-date truth as I hear it, just like Dr. Munser. So again, it could change, but for now there is hope, there's lots of answers. Genetics do play into this because it sets your stage for how you're interacting in the environment. And if you wanna know, we'll be sure and link up with Dr. Munser's page and his company. So if you wanna know more about what he does, you can do that as well. We're actually working in our clinic on a COVID pack. I don't know if I can call it that legally, but it's basically some of the basics. So glutathione, NAC, vitamin C, zinc, some of the very probiotics, a very, very basic core stuff that all of us should be taking right now. So check that out, drjilhealth.com, my website, jilcarnihan.com. And thank you all for joining us. This was really, really fun. And Dr. Munser, thank you so much. No, thank you. A blessing to everyone who listened to this. Bye-bye. Bye-bye, take care.