 Thai culture, Thai social behavior that I can't find any logic in, but Theravada Buddhism is built out of these two-and-a-half thousand-year-old Chinese philosophies. No. So I'm using that to help me understand my... So apparently, Mark Antoine's understanding of the history of Buddhism is different. Go ahead. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very different. Now, it's true that in the Chinese fear of influence, Theravada Buddhism is mixed with Taoism, but they are very distinct and they are different trends. Theravada Buddhism is certainly not built out of... I mean, the Buddha was probably neither a Hindu nor a Taoist, a historical Buddha. The Shakyatrai, which still exists in modern Nepal, and we suspect it might be the same Shakyatrai was an enlist to start with. But anyway, that's origins of Buddhism is a totally different conversation. There is something in my brain called the Thai forest tradition that comes out of Theravada, but I know nothing about. Thailand is interesting because it's one... Oh, no, it's Vietnam. Sorry. Vietnam has all three traditions like Theravada, Mahayana, Vajrayana, and they exist also in some degree in Thailand. For example, Thich Nhat Hanh is a Zen monk and Zen is a Mahayana tradition. No, he's Vietnamese though. So Zen exists in Vietnam, but I think there's also some slight presence of Vajrayana in Vietnam. So I'm going to make our way back to our topic a little bit by saying that Indra's net appears to be sort of slightly derived from Mahayana Buddhist tradition. Oh, purely Mahayana. And that Indra's net is one of the lovely historic metaphors for what we're talking about and what we're doing. Before we get too much back on topic. Yes, okay, good. On the recording, I wanted to make sure to capture... Mark Antoine mentioned Ursula K. Le Guin and her synthesis of the Dao De Ching. But you also mentioned the Dutch translation, which I didn't capture the spelling of. Yes, absolutely. And I do not have Ursula's translation, but I will find it and add it as well. It's in the Zoom chat. Thank you. And also just randomly as we went through a bunch of philosophical schools, I was reminded there's a short passage in one of Neil Stevens's books. I think it's The Diamond Age, where he talks about... He has a capsule summary of Confucianism, which I thought was really funny or insightful or funny and insightful. So I remember distinctly, and I'm pretty sure it was snowcrash way early, and I could be totally mixing up my histories. But I remember distinctly a passage where he just, someone I thought was used to describe Judaism, in particular Orthodox Judaism, as a perfectly replicating virus. Because generation after generation, it replicated itself exactly. There was really little deviation from practices. Polagraphic, yeah. I don't remember that passage, I think. Thank you for joining here. This is a reset of the Stuart's call into a let's build stuff kind of call. Let's do things. I chose something that seemed like low-hanging fruit, which was like, what is a guild and what she's doing? From left on Spruce Street, and your right on Rose Street. I think that... Is that John Kelly? Are you navigating? That is John Kelly. I am in a car, and I'm on a phone, but that's why there's no video. And I don't even see my mic switch. So my mic is open. When I find the mic switch, I will shut it off, but hopefully stay with you. I thought maybe you'd been kidnapped by aliens, and that was like your alien leader's voice telling you which way to go. So I'm really happy that that's not the case, although slightly intrigued if it had been. And because we're in my Zoom now, I can actually mute you. All right. Actually, that would be better. Go ahead and mute me. And when you want me to come in, then just unmute me and say I come in and I'll be here. I will pull you shortly until you get home and you can unmute yourself, but I will mute you for now. And enjoy the driving and eyes on the road. Eyes on the road. Eyes on the road. And before we get on subject, I just... Oh, God, okay. Please. Think about four blocks away from me. Wait, what? I could hear from what it said turn left on Rose and Scenic or something. I heard a couple of the street names that are where I am. I'm visiting my mother in Berkeley, and he's in Berkeley. I can tell that to you. Wow. And it turns out that I cannot unmute, John. I can click ask to unmute, which I did, but I don't know if that puts something on your screen, John. But I figured you'd want to reply to that. And now I can't get you back. So there we are. So we plunge you into the airlock and now can't bring you back into the transporter. But we were, so we'll send out a search party. And you found the button, apparently, John. Go ahead. Yeah. So you heard that there's a time and space coincidence? He's on King Jr. Way. Can you hear me now? Yeah. Okay, yeah. No, I found the... I heard the time and space thing. That's great. He's absolutely right. I am in Berkeley. I'm leaving a client and heading home to San Francisco. And yeah, I got the button. I got the buttons to appear at the bottom of the screen. So... Excellent. So we're good. I'll now unmute myself again and just join you if there's a relevant comment that I can make. Sounds great. Thank you. Any more digressions? This is fun. We can do this all day. Not digression, but question. What's our timing for this meeting? I do have another meeting at the hour. I've booked it for 90 because that's my habit. And if you have to drop at the hour, that's perfectly groovy. But I've booked it for 90. Cool. So my instinct was to head toward like using a call or probably a couple calls to figure out some things about guilds that we can hold in common. We can do the same thing about crests. We can do the same thing about many other aspects of OGM. But now that we've got some infrastructure in massive wiki and a website that we can add things to and move things around in and multiple communication channels and all those things. And a nascent directory in Vincent's work on trove slash catalyst, it feels like let's bolt things together so that people know where they are and what we're doing and how this all works. Open to other suggestions about other approaches to do this, but eager to put nails in the wood and frame things up. Many thoughts? Okay. Then let me just jump into the guild thing for a sec to put a little bit of framing around that. And I just thought in the shower moments ago that the guild framing that World of Warcraft uses, which I know Jack Parker is really fond of, is kind of an opposite framing for, hey, Judy, it's kind of an opposite framing to what I'm thinking, what my own understanding of guilds is. Because in World of Warcraft, a guild is a rating party, basically a team, which must have multiple different skills on purpose because you need to blend the skills to actually have a successful rate. And for me, a guild is a practice or a craft, a trade craft that is intentionally narrow in its band of skills. So it's really orthogonal or opposite to the Warcraft kind of guild. And I'm really interested in, in sort of guilds, and there's sort of two layers to guilds for me. One of them is the guilds as crafts. And if you look back in medieval days, there were furriers, there were coopers, but like within the making of clothing, there were carters, there were like, there were different kinds of craft possibly down to two finer grain, two finer level of distinction, but there were lots of different trades just to make clothing, right? And, and then within a trade, there would be multiple masters in some zone and some geographic zone, and who would have different sort of guild halls or guild assemblies, which might have different names. So, so within carters, there, there might be several, several different kinds of functional guilds, depending. And then, and I don't know enough about that aspect of it, but I know a little bit more about sort of the pyramid. Usually it was masters, yeoman, or journeyman, and then apprentices. Your apprenticeships were usually seven years. Once you became, and there's this book called Traveling Brothers, which is about going on tramp across Europe and sort of England and Germany where the early sort of guild, guild kind of countries and then other countries kind of joined in. But once you were a journeyman, it was also called a journeyman because you then took a certificate that said you were, you were already fully apprenticed, you were, you had gotten to journeyman level, you were given a thing called a blank from your guild, which was like the furriers declare that, you know, Judy Benham is a master, is a qualified furrier, not a master yet. And then you would go on trap, you would basically take your blank and some of your clothes and sometimes your family, and you'd go to the next town and see if the master of your guild needed any labor there. And they were more or less forced to take you if there was an opening, you settled in and that was your new home possibly for the rest of your life. And you sort of, and people made their way around kind of Europe around their country in that way at a time when there were no good maps of any country, like nobody had surveyed the whole country. And so people who were on tramp got to know kind of more of the country than usual, but that's how the trades kind of evened out practices. And then you kind of had, there were not usually more masters than there was business in a town for that trade. And so you kind of had to wait for the masters to die or there were power struggles and other sorts of things. But that whole thing is interesting. Industrialization basically tips that and breaks it. But this whole notion of being on trap is really cool. And you can find, you can, tiny other thing, which is when you arrived at a town with your blank and went to the master of your guild and presented your blank, they had to give you something like eight pence for a night, a bed for the night and beer and a meal. And then the next morning, they would walk you around to all the masters of your guild in town to see if there was work. Then if there was no work, they would give you eight pence a mile and send you to the next town over because nobody wants an unemployed dude hanging out in town. So when you were on tramp, you were kind of in motion daily or whatever, whatever daily, but pretty soon until you found work and then stopped and settled down, kind of a random, random way to distribute things. Anyway, and there's some really lovely aspects of guild life that I wanted to build on, which is that guild members in a highly functional guild, you're bringing up young people or people inexperienced people in the trade, you were perfecting the trade. And back in the day, you were building trade secrets, which you would protect. And in our generative frame of mind here, we're actually trying to perfect the guild, the trade and make it public, make it really available. And so I'm hoping that the guilds that we create improve any tradecraft that we're associated with and take whatever materials are out there in the world around doing that thing and make them much handier, much more useful. And then last thing I'll say before I pass it to Mark Antoine is make room for employment of the people in that guild as practitioners of those things around the world. So Mark Antoine, then Pete. I have so much, there's so much that's great about the traditional notion of guilds and certainly in terms of transmission of a tradition, it's wonderful. And I find fascinating with your recounting is how they were using geography as a way to maintain diversity and recombination in the guild. And I think that's essential. Now, if I understand well, we're trying to create a guild of generalists and nexialists. And it's not that we have a... I'm not sure what that last sentence was. Can you say that again of generalist and... Sorry, sorry, sorry. Generalists and nexialists. I was using Van Vox term for space beagle, but you know, people making connections. We're connectors, right? That's the people of ideas of whatever. And on the one hand, it's a less established craft, but more important, it is about mixing disciplines. So though I totally agree that there is a value to having these guild as learning environments for transmission about, you know, we're trying to hone the craft here. But also on the other hand, we're trying to hone the craft, which is about mixing crafts. And that's why Jack is insisting so much on the other, the world of warcraft definition of guilds. And I agree there are two things and we need to keep them distinct. But on the other hand, the kind of guild we're building is about mixing specialties and perspectives, I think. Okay, more or less. So the kind of project we're in, absolutely definitely is what you just said. Like open global mind as a thing, as a community of practice, as a network of people trying to do stuff is exactly what you just described. But it involves a few things that are kind of difficult and run really deep, like using maps to express things and remember things and mine things, or facilitating a fantastic meeting and getting people who hate each other to do something together, or simplifying and distributing information and separating information from applications and designing an information architecture that is robust and reliable in a distributed way. And then I don't know how many of those oars there are given the scope or aim of OGM. But what, but my instinct, and I'm happy to be convinced otherwise, my instinct is that each of those things runs damn deep. And and that if we can define them nicely, and then remix them a lot in quests and projects and everything else, like the remixing is essential for OGM to be healthy and do its thing. But if we can refine them, then we become the nexus that go to place for people who need a maven for their next meeting. For example, because I think mavenology might be one of might be one of these sorts of guilds. Hey, Scott, you're going to reply to that. Yes, please. Very quickly reply to that. And then I agree there's a deep craft there. And that, as I said, there is a notion of a guild to hone that craft. But I think it's a craft that is based on mixing ideas from different crafts and that the substantial mixing of those other crafts is part of the art. That's it. I like it. Thank you. I wanted to to I wanted to observe a distinction in history between craft guilds and merchant guilds. So they're both called guilds. And they are different beasts. So I think we're kind of talking about craft guilds here. Merchant guilds were business associations. And you know, they had they worked differently. And merchant guilds and craft guilds were often at odds. Kind of kind of the difference between labor and and business or something like that. Then I was also just looking around. There's also just happened to be reading about 14th century Florence. So there were the greater guilds and the lesser guilds. So there's the fat cats and then the little little people. So there's another kind of so I guess maybe the lesson for me or the takeaway or something is when we say guild, we are borrowing a word that is that has varying definitions. And I think we need to be really clear to to walk somebody into where we're going rather than you know, okay, it's a guild. Oh, you mean a merchant guild, of course. Oh, you mean a greater guild. Oh, you mean a lesser guild. So this just kind of a caution flag makes total sense. And I think I was aiming at craft guilds specifically. Because of the notion because of my preconception that there are some pretty that there's some specialized skills that that are involved in this OGM a thing, whether it's craft detection or whatever else. Lorelai, welcome to the call. Glad you're here. You missed some really good digressions at the start of the call. That's what we were like in completely different territory. We recorded some of them. Exactly, we've got a recording for the whole thing. So anybody else want to jump in at this point to sort of the definition of guild and whether it's going to help us achieve our mission. I mean, the reason the reason to pick guilds is that it might be a kind of structure that helps us get we're to find our best and highest purpose as open global mind, which may require a conversation back to okay, okay, what's what's OGM's best and highest purpose that that that's a totally reasonable direction to go in framing up like why guilds and how this works. Other thoughts, go ahead, Michael. Yeah, I was just going to say which is I think it might help at this moment in the idea that we're putting ourselves in motion a little bit more definition of what exactly we're doing. And yeah, I mean, the mission of OGM, as I've understood it, is fairly high-minded and broad and bring into action mode is great. And before we subdivide that and such maybe a better point on what we're doing. Love that and happy to kind of dive into that more. I'm going to find a document that I've got where I listed sort of a bunch of like forces at play in the environment, a little bit sort of pattern language, like because these forces are happening, OGM kind of exists. I'm going to find that and repost that list. In the meantime, John, you unmuted, did you want to jump in and Klaus has raised his hand, but John, did you want to jump in? I see that your icon has lit up, but your voice is not coming through. My voice. Yes. Okay, now, now we're getting. Let me try it. Okay. Yeah. Very rich. Your connection is about you're breaking up a ton. Your connection must be lousy wherever you are. Yeah. And his feedback. I'm in the tall line. Oh, okay. And there's a crash ahead of you, by the way. You can hear that. It's very slow. It's very, you know, very safe from the point of view of my driving. I would try to speak slowly and clearly. And it's working much better now. Possibilities. Okay. Possibilities. People is not a guild, but let's pretend it is. And let's see how it's the same and different from what you said. It's a mostly craft guild with a little bit of merchant guild. The craft is, the crafts include meeting facilitation, marketing, branding, coaching, coaching of individuals and coaching of teams. A couple of interesting things about it that are different from the classic guild. One is everyone in possibilities. People assumes that they have to be learning new stuff, a significant percentage of the time, because they assume that the craft, the stability and legitimacy of the craft is not stable. Some of the things last for a couple of years. I mean, for instance, like scenario planning, almost went away. Design thinking is still very strong, but it's now so broad that it doesn't mean anything. You have to say, well, what do you mean? What are you going to do with your design thinking? Branding is pretty solid. Social media marketing is solid, but unstable because people keep discovering new things about it and it's also ethically challenged. So if you're a social media marketing person, you need both to know how to do it and how to explain why it really is. If you're a possibilities people, social marketer, you're not only want to be successful as a social marketer, but you're interested in the ethics of it. So that's another whole dimension. And I guess a cloud over all of this is the assumption is, yes, you will have to spend between minimum 10, more like maybe 30 and in some cases 50% of your time adapting to a new craft. And the other big assumption is that marketing is at least 30%. I mean, it's like a huge part of your life and that there will not be enough work to go around. And that, again, it's an ethical consideration to be generous with other possibilities people. They keep saying, let's grow the pie, not fight over the pie. And people pretty much exhibit that generosity in the meetings. So that was just all observations, things to take into account as we, so to speak, craft our new definition of what a guild can be. I'm John and I've spoken. I love that. Thank you, John. That was great. I can't find my button now. I'll find it. I'll give my own reply to that and then would be interested in anyone else's and then we'll go to Klaus. And that is that I think what you're describing, John, is a third kind of entity, which is an organization of some sort that is providing services in the world, that is, we might call it a company, that employs guild members from different guilds, the way I'm envisioning guilds, rather than a guild. And that I'm hoping, I'm hoping that OGM becomes a happy platform, a happy home, for a variety of offers that solve a lot of problems that we see that are needed. So one that has come up that's near to what you just said is enhanced meetings or enhanced events. Like, hey, hey, meetings and events, don't you want humans who can do research on the spot as you're talking? Don't you want people who are building mind maps or concept maps or researching or linking up the ideas that you talked about? Don't you want to trans to transcribe your recording and then do some visual analysis of the transcripts and figure out, you know, what's going on? Don't you want to have a permanent record of the meeting connected to all the ideas of the meeting over time? And might you not be making more effective decisions if those things were around you? And that could be a business like like and that might employ people from several different guilds the way I'm envisioning it because some of those things are kind of different from each other and run really deep and requires some coaching and some learning and the kind of continuous learning that you were describing, John. So I think what you described is a for benefit or organization or even a nonprofit, but I don't care, but an organization that is, you know, creating business in the world whose market is really huge because who was it? Klein, I think. No, who wrote who really matters? Anyway, he wrote he wrote another book about the origins about heretics, the original heretics. He was writing about the sort of the beginnings of consultants who would do mind mapping and who were who stopped doing memos and bullet points and started taking things into ideation and all that. I'm forgetting what the heretics is in the title. And so before then, nobody was doing what now we take for granted as how ideation happens, right? That came kind of new into the world and became a giant business. And then design thinking is like that as well, but later. And ideal kind of I remember the day business we had on its cover, a picture of the two brothers who founded IDEO and an article that might as well have been written by the IDEO's publicity person about IDEO and design thinking and the business that they were building and all of that, which, you know, must have gotten them a huge amount of business. And I'm thinking that what the things that we're working in have the possibility of being the next wave of those kinds of things. And there's there's several of them that I can see in in our horizon, in our event space. And I don't know if anybody agrees or disagrees with that, but I'd love to hear. Mark Antoine on Wiggles and Fingers, that's good. Scott? From the area of design thinking, it always seemed like IDEO had had an agenda behind it to make it their own. Even whether they did or not, you know, they always said it's for the world, everyone should use it and come to us and we'll, we'll help you do that, you know. Yep. Yep. And in the process, tons and tons of people hung a shingle saying that they did design thinking, but the attention clearly went to IDEO. In fact, in fact, I remember there was a quote from somewhere at some point where somebody asked the CEO, so what is design thinking? And their answer was, it's that thing IDEO does, right? It's like, whoa, okay, somebody ate the space really well. And then IDEO got into plenty of trouble sort of later on. Luckily, not the kind of trouble McKinsey has been in. So let me go to Klaus and Mark. The scenario planning is a little bit the same though, right? And yes, can't remember the global business network. Yeah. So, so Peter Schwartz works at Shell, comes out, invents this company with Stewart Brand and a bunch of other people. And, and I, and Esther was a member of GBN sort of smart people's network. So I got sort of absorbed a little bit into that crowd back in the day and met a bunch of interesting people through GBN, which was likewise. But then GBN becomes this one trick pony consultancy where all they do is multiple scenario planning. And I was like, damn, that's limited, right? The chat is very relevant right now over. Okay. Thank you. And let me go to Klaus. Yeah, I'm still trying to wrap my mind around this guilt concept. I mean, I'm looking at any, any kind of project basically as assembling different skill sets and this kind of skill set then becomes a unit that is designed for very specific kind of outcomes. There could be repetitive, right? I mean, there are people who build skyscrapers and they have a very unique skill set you know, with many specialists from engineering, air conditioning, so on and so on. And so that that would be maybe something one could call a guilt bridge buildings, skyscraper building, and engineering in general. Yes. Yeah. But it could also be transferred into marketing or into other components like this software design, for example. So, so I get that I'm not quite sure what type of skill set we're looking at to solve what type of problems when we are talking about guilt. So I think this is where I'm struggling to follow. Which means we need to go back to the sort of the wrapper of OGM like we know what's on the radar here and where this goes. So I'm going to go there in just a second. Judy, got your phone? Okay. Thank you. So, so Lorela pointed out that one of the really dark sides of guilds was restraint of trade, making sure immigrants and outsiders didn't get into the trade, keeping women in their place, a whole series of things that are really crappy. And I totally agree, Lorela. It's like there's a very dark side to what guilds did and restraint of trade and keeping all their trade secret secret and making sure nobody understood how that die worked and how, you know, all of that was a sort of they saw it as essential to their preserving their livelihoods, et cetera, et cetera. And a lot of these guild halls got really wealthy because they managed to sort of hold these restrictions. And I think we're trying to do like a white hat guild sort of thing here where incredibly inclusive, everything we develop or think about goes out to the world and it's meant to improve that trade and make it easily available to the person in the farthest corner of the world, et cetera, et cetera. So I think that we're, I'm hoping to not inherit that dysfunctional mantle and do something actually really positive with the framing. And I'm totally open to not having guilds here at all. But I still sort of think this is interesting. Go ahead, Lorela. You wanted to jump in. You said a word that I didn't hear. You said a something cast guild. What did I say? Something cast? It had an I sound in it and I couldn't hear it. Do you know what I said just before? It had the meaning of like a good guild. I remember now a white hat guild. Right. So I just wanted to point out so that those of us that are embedded in white society don't realize so much of language that ends up being yeah, so using the contrast of dark and white often and maintain. So yeah, thanks for letting me bring that to your attention. Yeah, thank you. And I realize now white hat, black hat is a terrible, terrible metaphor to use to talk about that. How about Robin Hood? No, that doesn't work very well either. Anyway, good, like a guild of good intentions, a well intended guild. And thank you. Mark, I'm fine. When Lorela mentioned the exclusion aspect of deals, I totally agree. And there is a legitimate reason to exclude, which is to preserve good practice, right? So especially in engineering, you don't want anybody to build a bridge without safety considerations. And in our case, it's an emerging craft, and it's not the same thing. But certainly, if I think of our guild as more community or a learning community of practice, right? So what we really need is to be able to have a kind of emerging corpus of this works, this doesn't. And it's not so much about excluding people who are not following our practice, but be able to say, well, this is, this is failed for you. It may work for, sorry, this has failed for us so far. It may work for you, but be aware that it's failed for us and why. And if you manage to make it work great, then tell us how it's different. But the whole notion of being able to say, this looks like good practice. This looks like, you know, known failure points. I think that's really the important point of building a guild. It's building that corpus. Yes, entirely. And we're all about the generative commons and building an extremely useful accessible corpus. That's like central to what OGM is about. And flipping the script on education, where 98% of edtech ventures I've seen basically have a secret thing that when you stop paying them every month goes away. And it's like, seriously, education should not be proprietary, should not be taken away. Let's build scaffolding that lets us transform education, for example, right? And then let me just go back to engineering for one second, because in Canada, the Quebec Bridge failed in 1907 and 1916. It failed twice. And as a result, the Canadian Society of Engineers decided to create this iron ring and the ceremony around it to basically heighten the notion that people's lives were in the hands of engineering and engineering had to become a craft that was much more responsible than it had been and understood better stresses and whatever else. But the notion that they up their game, that they leveled up because of disasters is, I think, really interesting. And so when you become an engineer in Canada, you go through that ritual, through that ceremony and that makes you an engineer, a device that may have been misused over time, because who got to get the ring and who was accepted in the schools. And that means that other people didn't get to practice engineering. And I don't know. All these things are certainly open to being misused. Boundary keeping is always problematic, right? But boundaries are essential. I mean, even with the comments, that's Ostrom's work. You need someone just to your word to comment, and there's a boundary there. My boundary minding, perhaps. I was in the Kaikulat meeting yesterday. Pete was there too. And we were speaking class. It was a class. Anyway, someone mentioned the whole example of a community process where they made a much, it was a controversial issue around logging. And there were some people who were loggers, who were hippies back to land. And it was quite a mix. But what made the conversation sane was only opening it, or closing it to anybody who didn't live there. So they maintained the diversity of stakeholders, but you had to have to be part of the community. And that sometimes boundaries are essential. And it made a huge difference in how the conversation went. Scott, did you want to chip in? Yeah, we've been going through a lot of my mom's old stuff. She's 85. And she managed to pull out a bunch of pocket watches that I've recently become interested in. And I found out that there's something called the railroad standard of pocket watches. And what that means is that it's accurate to us within a certain amount. And then it can be held in different positions and it maintains its accuracy. Now, obviously, they're a little more expensive. But the point was that trains were running into each other, because everyone wasn't in sync. And in this case, this was a tool. As long as you had the tool, didn't matter how you got it, you could help maintain the standard. And so it wasn't necessarily about imposing anyone's will. It was simply saying, we're all aligned to this standard, whatever it happens to be. And if you're off, we'll help you sync back up again. And it's going to keep us all kind of in lockstep. And I believe time without being limiting. And I believe time zones are invented for the railroads as well, in order to solve some of those. It's the lines on the road. Yeah. No, we could all drive without lines on the road and we'd be freer. But would we? We do need those rails. Where does that leave us? And I'm about to turn toward the broader frame of OGM and some of that. But anything else we should put on the table before heading that way? Cool. And then the story of the ocean chronometer is equally interesting. And the book Longitude is long. Do you all pronounce it longitude or longitude? So of hands for longitude? Almost all of us. Okay, good. The book Longitude is lovely. There's other parts of the story, but being able to do a chronometer. And apparently Magellan goes around the world for two years, does not make it back alive, because he does in the Philippines, I think. But the clocks on board his ship are only like two minutes off after two years at sea, which is insane. It's like unbelievable. First dude circumnavigating the world, and his clocks are barely off. That is wow. That's completely remarkable. Cool. So let me, let me paste, I don't know if it'll paste properly. Oh, it's not pasting. How about that? Let me actually screen share instead. There we go. Boop. Boop. Let me screen share instead to just show you the document that I was referring to a little earlier. So here's some assumptions behind OGM that we are in the middle of five planetary crises give or take. And then I'll give everybody a link. I'll put the link to this document in the chat. But this is the link to the five crises in my brain, which is the planetary crisis, the racism, sexism, social crisis, et cetera, et cetera. Discourse is broken, which is a, I think a really big assumption behind open global mind that we're unable to solve the five crises. We can't actually tackle the five crises because discourse is broken in part because consumers and a bunch of other things, in part because some actors in the political sphere have figured out that if you can break discourse, you can win elections and run the table and prevent action on those five crises. So there's a political angle to the breaking of discourse as well, which is the next bullet. Some actors are intentionally undermining discourse and trust. This process has widened the global cultural divide. And then there's another angle, which is just quirky me because I've been using this brain thing to keep a memory for 23 years. I've discovered that the fact that we don't have a shared memory any better than Wikipedia makes us amnesic, dumber, and easier to manipulate. So there's a whole bunch of people who are busy becoming black belts in their tradecraft of spin manipulation, lying on purpose, all those kinds of things. And that is its own tradecraft, by the way, with expertise being passed down, etc. Then there's this notion that emotion and membership Trump reason most of the time. So thinking that just if only we could make arguments clearer and show the evidence better and convince people we would win is wrong because a lot of what causes these divides and causes people to take opposite positions has to do with being members of a tribe and everybody else in the tribe believes this or is doing this, so they will too. Business, which has been trying to avoid politics for years is actually more political than businesses want to admit. This one kind of, I don't know how I crept into my head, but I think it's really true is that business is extremely political in particular because there's almost no free markets and there's almost no normal normal businesses. Businesses have managed to do regulatory capture or other kinds of capture to almost everything. And we need better tools and techniques for sharing stories, facts, and points of view. The tools we have are quirky and limited and not integrated. Those tools need to interoperate as well as share trustworthy linked contextual data. The tools, techniques, and data need to be as open and accessible as possible. A platform, whatever platform means, needs to be credible and durable. And that means it needs to help us participants make a living through their participation. So there's this notion of OGM as providing not just hopefully integrated tools for visualization and dialogue in this course, but also ways that experts in those crafts could make a living. And that we, OGM, don't have the best answers to climate change and to everything else, but one of our best and highest purposes is to help those who do have the best answers and then absorb some of their DNA as we move through. So there's a big piece here about outreach and about OGM. I don't think this is a laboratory to create the best answer to every situation. Hopefully this is a boiling cauldron in which we've put a lot of the ideas allow people to develop points of view about what is, you know, I'm interested in Sol Griffith's best answer to, you know, how all this works. I'm interested in feminist economics best answer to how to solve our way through all these problems. And then very interested in ways of debating, comparing, contrasting, synthesizing, remixing all these different kinds of answers to problems. And I'll stop the share now because I can't see you all very well. But that's kind of a lot of the, those to me are the forces behind why OGM sort of exists as a thing other than a couple of coincidences and some interesting conversations. Jack, welcome to the call. Thank you. I just got up and Mark Antoine reminded me that this was going to be about guilds and so forth. And if that's the case, then why shouldn't I be here? Excellent. And Mark Antoine represented some of your approach to wide guilds. He's qualified. He is. He got the strikes to prove it. Good. So let me stop and see what anybody thinks about what I just shared on the screen. Okay. Mark Antoine, got jazz hands. That's good. Anybody disagree? Like, this is kind of the existence narrative for OGM from my eyes, right? That's all that is. But it's important because I think it creates some framing like, hey, this isn't a game B convening where we're going to try to find the best answer. And this isn't Theory U where we've got a really interesting idea for a practice and we're going to make that practice solve problems around the world. We see Theory U as a, not so much a client, but a beautiful peer organization with a great following and a terrific idea. And if we can help Theory U, like if we can amplify their work and launch, you know, help everybody do better, you know, go through the U. To me, that's brilliant. But equally interesting, like helping integral actually solve problems. And then, you know, the integral community and the spiral dynamics community and name your model. And really interesting to me for people coming in who are curious to find their way to the best models, right? How do we help make that happen? Go ahead, Klaus. Yeah, I'm just thinking about this project that we're working on with the Global Regeneration Collab. And I've had a couple conversations now with Sam, who is going to be the lead guiding us through this project phase. And in the discussion with him, we actually talked about what could OGM be doing to support this process and help us. And what really one of the sort of structural part of this project design has to be to deal with uniqueness in each community that is interested in developing a community level food system, and then finding commonalities that connect these food systems. So a simple concept, food systems all over the world are the same in its basics, right? Everybody eats breakfast, lunch and dinner. In every place, there's a farmer, there's an aggregator, there's a logistics function, there's a processing function, there's a retail wholesale function and so on. So the structural components of food systems are the same everywhere in the world. How that then executes at the local level has so many variations you would never see the commonalities that's behind it, right? So we need to develop a process that is one of discovery, right? Where we are looking for very specific markers that are always going to be the same no matter what community we go into, and then find ways to assist the community to create their own story basically. But following these very technical mandates of what the food system needs to be like in order to function from beginning to end, from farm to fork, so to speak. So I see that that will require some skill sets that may not have been deployed yet in this field. So that's where this kind of innovation comes in, where we are going to have to develop processes that can be super standardized and structured, but allow the modifications in the field which allow the creativity to unfold in the thing. So that's sort of maybe where I see us going. I class, I agree with everything you just said and then you rang like five different bells in my head for ancillary topics that matter a lot, like the right to repair relative to done deer tractors, right? Which are just locked away and anybody who wants to repair their thing has to put it up on a trailer, pay a thousand bucks, get it towed to the repair shop and then like because there's no access. And a whole bunch of things like that have happened to the industry, which are political in nature, and require addressing as well. Then there's a psychological therapeutic somehow aspect to this at the individual and organizational and industrial level. So at the industrial level, what I mean is a lot of people are trapped inside of a series of systems that keep them kind of prisoner to the current arrangement of systems on the ground in their geography, wherever they are. And how do you intervene with that so that you can actually change to a more functional, more fair kind of geography? And right now we've had farmer strikes in India because the government offers subsidies on certain crops and they're taking away the subsidy. It's like really complicated. There have been protests all over India through the pandemic because this is such a shit show for Indian farmers. And like poor Indian farmers, they were self-subsistent with food before the British showed up and it's been a nightmare ever since. And I don't know that it was pretty before the British showed up, but boy, it's been a nightmare ever since for Indian farmers. Anyway, there's lots of different levels there. Go ahead, Klaus. I mean, India is actually a really great example because the problem the farmers are facing in India right now is that Monsanto, Bayer, Tyson, Cargill, they all have Wal-Mart, but actually the company that I used to work for, Metrocash and Kerry was also represented and I made several trips to India to support our local team because the Indian market is really quirky in many ways. But the overriding thing is that they used to have very successful small farms which had very poor logistics systems, very poor communication, inadequate ways to aggregate and so on to support big businesses. Because there's Wal-Mart coming in there, their supply chain strategies are not conducive to the Indian way of doing things. So I've actually been exchanging thoughts on that with Sunil for example and some other folks. What India would need is not to have farmers consolidate and build low-crop production. That's insane besides destroying the rest of their water and top soil. What they need is a step back, sophistication, revolution in the logistics systems, in aggregation, in providing communication to farmers so they can plan ahead what to grow when and so on and so on. So that's where the revolution in the Indian food system should take place, not in messing up the farmers themselves. But that's a great example in the US. We're also dealing with a level of concentration which we have to step around and rebuild from the ground up a local food system that is community level connected. Just by analogy, April gave a talk recently to sort of HR departments and part of her advice was that one of the things you could do is treat flux, treat this constant flow and treat the work at home, kind of the new found freedom that people have with work at home, work from home because showing up to the office nine to five sort of went away during lockdown and all kinds of different things happened and many adjustments were made and instead of going back to the old normal to consider upgrading your infrastructure so that it's much more adaptable to these new flows and to people's needs and requirements and personal needs and all that and to make that the new normal, to adapt to the need to be really flexible in the way, and this may be a bad analogy, but in a way that you're saying that the markets and infrastructure and delivery systems and supply systems need to adapt to a different rhythm, different scale, different sense of how to get things done in any particular place and I'm really interested in the systems view on those two problems because I think there's some really interesting solutions to be had there if you start looking at this system systemically and then there's interesting interventions to be done at the political level, at the local level, at the whatever and in anything I just said that sounds like action somebody on the world is already doing that damn thing like there's already somebody on the ground trying to get that done how do we amplify their efforts rather than taking on the task ourselves and how do we find those high functioning groups and say let us help you turbocharge your efforts and that might mean get more attention, that might mean get the chief minister of agriculture to take your meeting, I don't know what it means and I think there's a lot here about hacking systems and trying to figure out how to get through there. Lorelay you're taking awesome notes and I don't have enough time to absorb them would you like to just a little bit? Yeah they're not notes I'd love to speak to these things. Please fabulous. I appreciate what you presented in your assumptions and something that I want to point out that is mine around the one hand and actually substantial I don't think it's important to wordsmith the things now and some of the words that you've used to me have I guess like narrowed things or put things in a particular direction that to me it's important because it can influence the way we're present to it right now in subtle ways and then also it might include exclude some people that we want to include and I just have a list of examples and I don't need to go over them now but these are things to explore even a list like this and then a conversation like this can be impactful so one is just like the word Trump you just you happen to say this like emotion and membership Trump reason I mean it's just the word right now just has so much implication. I will change that word good point and then discourse the word discourse when I first saw it I went ha ha like I felt something and this would be an intuitive thing so this goes into more somewhat the emotional kind of thing like something about that word so I looked it out it looked it up and it turns out that it does actually imply written and it does imply expertise and so it's got a narrowing flavor and then also I didn't know this till just about two weeks ago focusing on written actually excludes people of color particularly black people to some extent because they have more of an oral focus and it came up in the conversation about hiring and how to how to hire people BIPOC people like there are different ways to reach them because of the cultural norms and then let's see it's going up so I gotta find my words reason oh yeah yeah so I mean oh so again just an emotion and membership trumping reason so for me I was a scientist and I'm now an intuitive and and a coach and I see how reason and science actually overwhelms things in a bad way sometimes the way trump dumped science is not good making facts not facts is not good however science is limited and so including those other things matters so talking about it in and right a combined inclusive way yes and I believe you intend don't say explore collaborate not only share stories points of view facts so you said share so using the verbs that get across more of what we want I think it's the conversation and the just yeah some of these words is right but the conversation and the play and the expansion and the discovery of what better things are in the process together so what verb we use right conveys some of it conveys the meaning to people open tools techniques data what did I write what did I write we go I don't know exactly what I referred to right there oh yeah yeah yeah so we want tools techniques data to be open I think there's also something about them like working with Pete on GitHub and how the data is protected so some reference to that too in some form we switch from in the language platform so tools techniques and data need to be open blah blah and then it says our platform needs to be credible durable I'm so used to platform being software and so the clarity there are we talking process or software or so again just so that we know what words we mean and then the phrase make a living so for me making a living is like bare sustenance and to me it might be better to use words like thriving right so it just examples of some modern language that includes some and three thriving has to do with me and the context I'm in so to some extent it implies the on the ecology and the environment and care for a greater whole um yeah so those are some specific things as you read through it just as I'm my mind is doing all these things and it yeah I think you get that my impact is that we convey what we want that we don't spend so much time making it perfect but that we convey what we want and this again I would say is like energetically the impact on people so that the right people the people that we want to have participate are the people that feel drawn to us um thank you for the gift of what you just said um because I haven't had this conversation with anybody about you know like I feel strongly clearly about those things and I put them out in places and what you just said hasn't come back to me until you just said it which I really deeply appreciate um and I want to go back and recraft this and I'd love to go back and rethink it uh as a way of expressing like our mission and what's going on here because I think that that connecting properly to these forces uh being honest about them and being inclusive about them is a way of opening a really important set of conversations that could be really productive right and you're completely right that that the moment there are a couple of trigger words uh for for people like people start my metaphor is they fall off the back of the truck like like we're all you know whenever anybody is presenting or putting forward a thesis it's like but they have a bunch of people on the back of the truck and then as things happen as they say things or do things that don't really mesh with with with other people's ability to understand or belief system or whatever else they start falling off the back of the truck metaphorically and I think that that's super important to to figure out um because you don't want you want people to be along for the ride and then to have a good conversation you know at some point there anybody else on these these themes because I that Lorela what you just said is really important and I need to go back and change what that thought is called so I don't and I know you can't say OJ for orange juice anymore because of OJ and like a lot of words got poisoned right so so Trump and and I was doing a little bit of an ironic I kept the word Trump in there because that thought has been in there for a while and I kept the word Trump in there because it seemed like an ironic reference but it's actually a trigger so bad word anybody else with thoughts about these things or comments on the list and and the list is sort of not complete you're you're you're as you were talking you were also expanding the list in my head in a sense of yep yep missing a bunch of things here the way Jordan Sukut talks about higher purpose and collective goodwill and all that you're languaging around thriving I love I I I don't like resilience and sustainability because to me they mean barely surviving and getting back to where you were and I love flourishing and thriving because they imply doing better than and they also imply and my wife is using this in speeches a little bit the difference between elasticity and plasticity which may be a bad metaphor but elasticity like a rubber band snaps back to its original shape and plastic when heated will remold into some new shape and what we need is actually a new shape we can't go back to the we can't be elastic and just like wow we take some big impact and come back to where we were because where we were doesn't exist kind of anymore in lots of different ways it's great and we need new language because I don't know what the origin of the word plasticity and plastic is does it come from making plastic or does it come from something else before we made plastic and that's why it was called plastic was the word plastic coined when plastics were invented or did it proceed that would be really interesting I'm sure we can we could find an etymological dictionary on that that's a great yeah great question yeah and that's an example of like to me each word has a lot of value actually and I am 1000% on board and also you made me think a lot about the role of intuition and supranatural suprological phenomena in this whole process and when I'm talking about therapeutic interventions at different levels in the system I I'm a lot going into that it's like you know here's a here's a person who has great ideas whose ideas haven't made it into the world yet what's the intervention that releases those ideas from their from inside their skull into the community of ideas into the you know out into the world where we can sort of figure this out for example we are five minutes past the hour we have another 25 minutes if we'd like to stay I'm I'll be here until then I'd love to sort of do a critical assessment of the concept of guilds here given what we've said so far like do guilds still make sense to do I'm realizing that there's a natural there's a natural path to to supporting organizations that want to make a thriveable living I don't know if that helps a little bit but but just saying that want to thrive doesn't doesn't necessarily mean putting money in people's pockets which is I think an intention here um but there's a there's a natural quick path to just saying hey let's stand up some businesses that are very ogme let's let's get them some some customers and let's some clients rather because I for me customers are one-off purchases and clients are repeat relationships and I hate the word consumer my whole journey for the last 30 years is informed by me realizing that I hated the word consumer back in the early 90s um jack please so we don't use customer we don't use user we not member and member in in the context of our work on this is a member of a k-hub a knowing hub and a knowing hub is a host for any number of guilds and it's in that context that you have a knowledge garden it's a local knowledge garden to that that let's just call it a tribe um I I think Mark Antoine told you that there's a couple of senses in guild one is the the the craft guild the the ancient sense of a guild and and the other of course is is basically an epistemic guild where people are doing some kind of knowledge work whether it's driving cannons and shooting it you know saving damsels and caves or it's out in a structured conversation and holding forth on some some wicked problem and that's that's the only sense of the guild that that I have any you know any uh horse in this race so uh I would ask the jerry's tribe uh what sense of the guild are they interested in and and and then we can go and and uh let me go back because we talked about this a bit before you got on the call but I want to sort of retrace that because I was making a distinction between my own understanding of guilds which peep refined because there were craft guilds and trade guilds our merchant guilds and we really I'm looking at craft guilds where my intuition in ours in our framing here in our setting is that there are different kinds of things like mapping stuff like drawing really good maps or understanding semantics and how knowledge is connected or separating data from applications and doing distributed open linked warm contextual data that each of those requires pretty deep expertise and is some kind of a craft and so for me guilds I was associating guilds with crafts specifically and separating them from one another so that they could perfect and bring people into that particular craft and figure that out that's fine that that so that's not my focus and or nor my interest though I agree it's a good and and I contrasted that with the world's a work of kind of guild which I believe that it is more toward your framing where the guild intentionally must have expertise from a variety of different people in order to succeed in its missions because without a mix you're actually not going to get things done right that no that's that's that is my mission on on this planet for the rest of my life is to try and tame conversations the world over and let me say it quietly when I say tame conversations that's code for taming humans that are crazy and and you know we all know about how in any conversation it's only two minutes before somebody says Joey you're an asshole and that's our guilds exist to block that they can keep it inside the guild do whatever they want but if they want to get anywhere on the leaderboard what comes out is going to be civil so you have a highly structured environment within which a guild is an entity that would in participation have certain rules about how discourse happens and and and so forth and and lower life back sorry go ahead jack we're going to use a scoring mechanism to to basically promote basic fundamentally a kind of ethos in my case you all you all probably know that jay mcconigal did a structured conversation game but it was first person shooter it's called foresight engine and when I first heard about it I just I just blocked the next day because it was going to run 24 hours from 8 a.m to 8 a.m the next morning I just wiped everything off that my calendar and turned the cell phone off and played the game and I recognized it is an ibis conversation which is what I work my phd work was about and within five minutes in the first game which was called race for the cure it was a new neurological disorder with it with a 10-year incubation rate and it was the president of the united states who had been diagnosed and therefore please help him and accelerate biomedical research that that was the game and that's my game and so I jumped in and within five minutes one of the working hypothesis was kill all the muslims now that that that node lasted on the screen just long enough that I my brain settled on what the hell and then it disappeared and and that's because they have what they call game runners that sit behind it wizards behind the screen so to speak that read every node and so that's their form of censorship right so the navy bought a license to clone it the office of naval research created a version of it called modally massive multiplayer online role playing game leveraging the internet and it was for their shipyards they were selling selling games to their shipyards but some of them were private because of security reasons and some of were open to the public and so I played all of those and I won every game I ever played because I know how to play that right up until I published a blog post on how the scoring mechanism works and I never won again but I could always climb my way to third second or third what I'm saying is is that those were structured conversations but undisciplined they were first person shooters and so the signal to noise ratio was down around zero you know I went a lot of points because I I had a half a dozen other people the top three made points that were hard hitting and well with you know the effort and the rest of them were just chatting and whatever the navy adapted a new thing they don't delete your card they mute it and it just says muted so everybody has to know you made a bad move and what I'm what I'm saying is I chose Jack I did what did you hear me never mind it was my it's my connection that screwed up but yeah you've frozen so yeah I first I thought first I thought you had frozen but then I'm looking around I'm like oh everybody's holding really still this is not good uh yeah so sorry Jack I chose the world and I and I'm a huge fan of gene McGonigal's say again yes yeah I was talking I'm a huge fan of gene McGonigal's back to you we all are and and and and I I played her games in the navy's version her games up until the point that the navy invited me to come be a wizard behind the screen and still play the game and then they invited me to moderate to talk about the future of Mowgli which Jane's game is offline and the navy's game is offline because they were both written in an ancient code and were so expensive to run that they they couldn't make any money with them but what I'm saying is I chose the world of work craft model the guild quest model with avatars because I had done a lot of research on the value of avatars when I was doing my phd research I read this huge amount of scholarship mostly centered around world of craft world of warcraft and then of course john sealy brown who used to run xerox park did a six minute youtube which he opened with the sentence I would rather hire a high level world of warcraft player than an MBA from harvard which convinced me that I was on the right path so minor guild quest and the guilds are charged with with fundamentally internally censored but what we know from john sealy brown is that over time guild players in a structured conversation stop being ego driven and become eco driven otherwise they don't stay in the guild so it's a way of what I say it this is I'm not taming conversations I'm taming humans that's that's that's how I see this if you there's an old saw that many of you probably recall it goes like if you take care of your pennies your dollars will take care of themselves and so if you map that to if you take care of the people and the wicked problems will take care of themselves that's a general way to phrase how I see this this ecosystem and just by analogy if you take care of the soil a lot of the rest of agriculture and food and humans like it gets better so that that that old saw maps to so many places if we would just get back to making it you know it's almost a biblical statement it's amazing like what you what you you know you get what you measure etc etc and you know when you when you turn the whole economy toward like profit and you do profit primacy that's you you you screw everything else up and so and so so one of the meta objectives of open global mind is how do we help shift humanities objective functions right how do we get people to see that we're interdependent interrelated and that if we actually collaborate like there's plenty around for all of us we can sort of sort through a lot of our problems and figure things out together as opposed to the mess that we're in right now go ahead Klaus yeah it seems so that at least from my perspective in the food business that this has to be an asynchronous approach because it's very difficult to sway the businesses who are whose business model is wedded to this particular structure that they have developed here and to change to make drastic changes to restore soil back to health for example requires modifications to their business model which would most likely break it it's the changes inherent in that are simply too significant and it's a vertically integrated supply chain with complementary business structures who are completely interdependent you take one out the whole thing collapses so there has to be an asynchronous approach to the market meaning the audience is completely different and we're working with people who don't necessarily have the business skills or the resource structures supporting them to to scale easily so how to how to move around the established large corporate structures and develop a challenge from ground on up that that has the potential to scale and has the potential to really shift that system I think that is that is the challenge at least in the food system we're into close to our last 10 minutes so where does anybody want to summarize how you're feeling about guilds right now relative to OGM for me they seem like important underpinnings to get to organizations that are thriving by creating income for people and solving world problems that matter and cracking the game code that Jack was just describing and all of that but I might be over complicating the situation I also had my impression was that a lot of the things that are involved in OGM from visualization to figuring out reliable data to craft detection to whatever else require some deep expertise and could become important trades or crafts of you know on their own in the future and a piece of what I thought we might be able to do is invent the job descriptions of the of the next century like like companies need organizations need these kinds of roles and haven't valued them until now right so how might that work um Judy Craig anybody who hasn't jumped in any thoughts Judy you're muted there we go I think we're struggling a little bit with language or at least I am the guilds have more of a historical flavor to me versus a different entity name that is collective in intent and capability but not as restrictive as guild implies guild feels hierarchical to me which feels like a non-thriving process I agree with Lorelai's comment that language like make a living is maybe not optimal and make a living sounds like we're really back into tradecraft if you will in the sense of what do we do to be part of the structure that dispenses the wealth I'm not sure that that's the tone and maybe I'm reading into the word or the connotations as a word intent that's not there but I like to think our community and our structures are about service not about gain and so they need to be rewarding to the people who are in them for a variety of reasons but if if the tone of money creeping in always makes me uneasy because it leads us back to the rather dysfunctional hierarchy already in place um that's a bunch of rambling but that's kind of where I'm sitting right now it's not rambling at all um thank you so one thing is on the hierarchical nature so so for me guilds and I'm sitting in the fake dojo but guilds and martial arts have hierarchies but the hierarchies are very intentional to take care of the younger folks and bring them into the trade and make sure that when they reach the top that they're very skilled and that they're they're good to good to go to pass on stuff and a piece of the story of guild that I forgot to tell was the etymology of the word masterpiece and when after you were a journeyman or a yeoman the way you became the master of your guild of the guild was you made your masterpiece so if you were a furrier and that was your your your guild you made the best fur or coat or whatever or cape you possibly could and when your judges your fellow masters basically said yep your masterpiece was basically your phd so so I love the origins of the word masterpiece then um and master not a good word at this point anymore as well so so so I'm I'm I'm getting convinced that guild is a is a is a bad word with enough it's got enough negative freight that we can we can dump it and um and I just wanted to reply to making a living so I thought in my own languaging here and I'm clearly wrong I thought making a living was relatively inoffensive way of saying hey everybody there's a way to like make money here and and we could do this and make and not have to worry about paying the rent and paying the mortgage because this could become how we how we thrive how we stay alive how we whatever and I didn't know that for a lot of people making a living feels minimalist feels like like you're just barely got your nose above water that I that I did not know because for me making a living is cool it's like you're making a living that's great so I would love replacement language I would love to know how to say hey there's revenue revenue or incomes available here that you could do great on and this could be the future of your of your independent self-employed work not how the man doles out the money which is Judy what you just found in the conversation too which I'm like oh crap that's not what I mean it's it's like you know how do we actually get into this um and then maybe we maybe we just coined a word so years ago after an ift f event I think and I love Jane McGonigal I was part of her superstructure game I was one of the I was one of the mcs I was actually the mc for the superstructure game 10-year forecast uh that the ift f did built entirely by Jane and a bunch of other people contributing ideas which was like a high point for group process in my life um and I at some point after one of those meetings I bought the domain PsyDron.com just because I thought a PsyDron is like a group and I think it was related to a Keras which comes from Kurt Vonnegut's ice night Kurt Vonnegut's cat's cradle he invents a bunch of words like grand faloon and uh bachononism and the Keras and the Keras is your tribe your group uh that that's what's in a in a few people have used this Keras in other kinds of contexts but do we coin a new word here for people who help other people? The word just crept into my head which was talent what if we had a circle of talents or somehow used an attributional word that isn't as loaded with hierarchical tone? Yeah um I could totally go for that um and I think I think let's let's do on that and see where that takes us but I love so I have been I have been adequately dissuaded that guilds are a good framing for a variety of reasons now um but I'm looking for um does this does this role or spot in how OGM might function matter like let's let's pretend we find a great new name for it because people people have multiple and different talents and their talents grow and develop as they use them and so in that sense the the um the metaphor for the the advancement into mastery in various things whether it's Tai Chi or something else I mean there is there is a gradient of talents but but it's it's one that's constantly shifting as individuals learn from their masters and become like masters or in the theater profession it's the same sort of thing I mean there's a lot of I think we may want to look to more of the arts terms than the technical science terms because they tend to be more inclusive and more flexible and I like the notion that there could be we could have a lot of different circles and the circles could be dimensionally defined by the members of the circle and modified when a new member comes in if that adds another dimension to the circle so it also I also like the perpetuality of a circle because it's a a lot of HR departments have renamed themselves talent management talent attract you know talent acquisition and April's giving a speech now where she's like one of the points she's making is forget talent acquisition you don't buy people talent attraction maybe and it's nice that they've switched to talent but acquisition seriously yeah so Lorelei I think it might be helpful to talk about the concepts that we want the word to include as a way of finding the words so my sense is that we we want to have something that describes individuals and projects with resonance come together in a way that's not exclusionary like that that people that aren't a fit know but at the same time that we don't a lot of the words have narrowing flavors that's why I think like guild is narrowing and league is narrowing and how to have it in a way that and it allows for the resonance and the collection of something that's related to come together in a way that's not exclusive and that also that it implies somehow more coming from it like greater and more and at the same time that it isn't simply a focus and greater and more for the purpose of greater and more right so it's how to find something that whatever other characteristics are important but something that includes all those kinds of things just in the flavor of the language it seems to be important so to to have to maintain the definition of skill in whichever way for example Tai Chi I mean we have different colored bells right that that indicate a degree in the German traits system you have the apprentice you have the journeyman and you have the master you know and it's the master chef so so maybe there's another word but people really respond to this particularly in the trade environment you know they the recognition that I have advanced my skills and I'm being recognized for the advance in my skills is an important component in personal development and people really take to this there's a sense of pride you know I have achieved a level of mastery in my in my professional in my endeavor so I don't want to lose that aspect and and there's an aspect here guardianship stewardship care nurturing connectedness mutual care mutual aid there's a whole bunch here about interconnectivity interdependence and acting with the intention of improving all those kinds of things just this is this is tangential but it's a little bit of dojo I own my sport is Aikido and I believe an upward spiral and uplift and sorry second small side note I just got a cold email a month ago from Paul Crefell who is the the author of a video that Arthur Brock sent me 20 years ago about upward spiral and how Crefell with a hand trial was going around the hillsides in northern California near where he lives repairing hill sides by understanding the mechanics of water and how water can damage a hillside and he sent me a cold email saying I googled my name and you came up so you're the first email I'm sending because I'd like to I'm 70 something years old I'd like to sort of do something with the last years of my life and like how can we play and I described OGM to him and he may he may enter our conversation his he's teaching so his school year is just wrapping up and I'm hoping to bring him into our conversations here but as part of Arthur putting Paul's video in front of me years ago I became a fan of upward spiral and uplift so I invented a practice I call up keto and I bought up keto.com which is a martial art for better or worse is martial I hate that about martial arts but they are martial but a keto is a defensive martial art but it's all about what if what if everything you touched benefited from your presence is the concept behind up keto it's like what if again up keto is all about blending energies and using the energy that's present in the environment those are all just native keto concepts right so so what if your presence in anything in a project with people whatever always improve things and then I I try to go about life like making people smile I like I'm like every email every interaction is an opportunity to to to like have a smile at the other end so I put a little bit of life energy into that all the time but what might that look like as a practice and does that shit in our model here because that is about uplift right well I like Michael's suggestion of bands because bands are fluid they take in new members people take different roles in the band there are leads in the band but they may be situational and they're certainly recognition within the band of the musical talent if you're in a musical band the talent level of the individual but it's not very hierarchical in how that's defined and jazz is a nice metaphor here laura I did put in the chat that band is is uh misused a bit for indigenous you're muted laura yeah I don't know that for certain but that's certainly one of the immediate things that comes to mind for me so I'm looking up to see if that's true and it may be really hard to find a word that isn't afraid and it's a little bit what Scott was saying it's like hey whatever word we land on is going to have some baggage and and one thing we can do is responsibly point that out and say we'd like to unload from that or we go with it or I don't think circles have any majority of tone to them and circles circles are endless and they're continuing and they're flexible and they're expanding or contracting or they're circles are really an interesting infinity infinity option in a way and holocracy which is one of many ways of organizing enterprises but holocracy talks all about circles and and they've sort of got different levels of circles the problem with circle is that it's it's such a lovely generic that it operates at almost any level and it's hard to figure out what do you mean by circle right it's it's it's you need to you need to either qualify it like an x kind of circle or a teen circle I don't know like so that you have an idea of scale and purpose around around the word well if you could you could pick terms like software circle technology circle process circle there are all sorts of descriptors for circle if circles want to define themselves circling got trademarked crazy I know and so like a whole bunch of us have been using it for the last you know 10 years they got they went back to their first dates of 1998 so just say in so when we circle we just got to be careful that we don't say circling but good lord this is a little bit like colors like a lot of colors are patented right like ferrari red you cannot use mcdonald's red uh you cannot use there's a whole bunch of colors that are just off limits and that node yeah exactly okay I'm an ip consultant sir ip consultant sorry ah um so this feels like it's been a really generative fruitful conversation I am I am successfully sold off the notion of using the word guild I still have this open question about that layer of activity of of collecting up and nurturing a craft or a trade or a practice or a skill and bringing people up into it and making sure that it performs really really well uh and all that like is that an important aspect of how ogm should organize itself and we can find a way to to to call it something um but is that an important aspect of our of our organizational structure I'm really interested in that um and I still suspect it is my my instinct is still yes although apparently the naming of it is thorny um but happy to continue on that quest this will be a standing call so if you feel like doing this and doing this more and and um let's use the stewards channel on matter most to talk about this so so in our matter most chats we will take there there's an existing channel called stewards which I will put a link to right now copy link I also had a process question Jerry I'm assigned with using google chat or what's using the zoom chat but we had been in these groups in order to make it sort of easily accessible to people using the not the zoom chat but the matter most chat and a failure of mine at the beginning of this meeting is saying exactly what you just said and saying hey let's use the matter most chat so um belatedly I'm agreeing with you and let's start from next uh Tuesday forward doing exactly that but in between calls if you have a bright idea about what to call a guild put it in the matter most chat and let's use that to focus this conversation but also um but also let's list what are the practical things that that we can do to bring you know to breathe life into ogm and to make it more of an entity because we that's really important and so far we've been we've been sort of struggling with a bunch of different moving parts and working parts and I think we can kind of move into it now go ahead Judy one of the things might be to just start in the channel a discussion of concentration zones or something like that for lack of a better term because I'm thinking that as we talk about what a guild might be which now might be something a circle a circle of xyz what would the xyz be the technology there could be process there could be mapping there could be storytelling I mean there's a whole rather limitless list of potential options but if we perhaps begin to create that limitless list with some definition that will help us with what the structures need to be cool thank you any last words for this call nice feeling circle I've met you before cool go ahead circle might a circle might be defined as a group of people who behave like members of a guild I really don't have a problem with the term guild it's a it's a collection of experts artisans or merchants it sounds hierarchical there has to be some expertise to be a member in my genre we had knitting circles and book club circles and various other things in graduate school and scotches non hierarchical and very open and inclusive sort of anybody who wanted to come came and scotches pointed out in the chat the inner circle is in fact exclusionary and circling in for the kill and a bunch of other stuff like that so oh well Russell saying that a little bit you know and a devil's advocacy way if I didn't do wrong scott yeah yeah absolutely everything is everything is a little bit problematic I do I do think circle has a lot more equality to it than some of the terms we've used I think that the guild thing outwardly I'd never said anything about it but since I came and saw quests and guilds I thought like this is a group of xd and d players and you know and it just seems like and you know game of thrones fans or whatever and it doesn't seem contemporary oops you just froze in the middle of a great set all medieval somehow so Michael could you say that last sentence again you just froze I think for all of us in the middle of that sentence and you it was great I said when I when I first came and saw guilds and quests as part of the terminology and ogm it seemed it seemed dissonant with what ogm I perceived ogm to be and it sounded that it sounded very white male medieval just just far away didn't sound contemporary love that thank you and that that's a really great point Lorelai yeah I want to say something that I feel I feel scared I feel like I'm taking a risk and sharing this and part of what I'm learning is that it's really important that we help educate each other and that we aim to call things in where we all have opportunities to learn and grow um I think it was in the keekalab call yesterday yeah it's Tuesday there was some discussion about humor and I think earlier in this call there was some comment about humor too and Judith I don't want to be having I don't want to share that has you feel uncomfortable I think you I think it was your voice someone just made a joke about about circles and I don't remember what term it was but it was like an exclusionary way of circle and it was meant as a joke I just who shared that Judith that might have been so in in the chat Scott said typed in that inner circle is exclusionary and then he said hey every term has this complexity so I then I then read that into the conversation maybe it was so maybe Jerry you said it so I am so this is a very good kind of thing the thing that I feel scared about is I don't want to be wasting time and there's something that feels important here to me and I don't want us to get I don't want any group that I'm part of to get so serious and so careful that we can't be creative and an impact that that I have physically on my body right now and it could be just again my own history and my stuff but I'm thinking about what it would be like if there were say a black person that's in this group right now the joke I think is intended to mean like we could take all these things to an extreme like we could look at everything this way the thing is that it's making a bit of an analogy between that example and the examples we spoke about earlier and if there were a black person in here that really was offended by one of the other words it's kind of making a comparison saying that that is the equivalent of and it's an unintentional it's an unintentionally shaming people to keep them quiet or to equate things that I think are unequal and I'm part of what I'm a stand for in the world is to keep eliminating ways that I'm racist in ways that I don't racist or sexist or any of those things in ways that I don't recognize and to empower the spaces that I'm in so that we also hold those values and things such as jokes and sarcasm and they actually can often be unhealthily shaming in ways we don't realize I want to be a place for humor and playfulness and also inclusivity I'm learning to address things in the moment when they happen yeah thank you for what you just brought to us it's a gift I appreciate it very much I'm really interested in what safe humor safe play looks like and feels like and I think to a lot of people who are stumbling into modern conversations everything feels spiky and it's like oh crap and and and and and probably justifiably a lot of those people withdraw from the conversation when it starts feeling less safe for them in ways that it felt unsafe for other participants forever and that may just be sort of just desserts I don't know but I think there's there's you know there's a dynamic going on there and I'm interested in exploring a little further and it doesn't have to happen right now at all but the notion that gosh you eventually you have to pick a word for something that you're trying to represent and every word has slightly slight edges and well and let's just let's just pick something is not meant to be let's just pick something even if it insults that person over there or that subgroup over there that's not at all the intention of that and but it may easily easily be taken that way and I don't know if that was a piece of what you were saying a moment ago about being dismissive of it or what if a black person were in the room how would they feel about it I have a feeling that there was some of that dynamic there but I'm not sure I just want to inquire and then I'll go to Judy I just like to make two comments one is that my husband who was a very wise psychiatrist once made an offhand comment that almost all humor has hostility at the root and if you think about it it frequently does and then that hostility may or may not be detected well I don't know if you talk about the humor of animals jumping around maybe not but if you think about anything said in humor about a person it can anyway so I think being sensitive to that's important as Laurel I brought up I would also say that that one of the most frequent forms of discriminatory behavior is humor and if you anything that got said to me in the early days of feminism was can't you take a joke was the response if I sort of gently called the question it was never meant to be serious it was humor I think there's a tint or discoloration to humor that is negative and I think if we're going to use humor then we need to understand how to minimize that or eliminate it because almost anything humor by its nature may be exclusionary because it might be the quote inside joke there's just a lot of dimensions to it that are complicated so which is a really hard thing for me to hear because one of my principal instruments in group facilitation is humor and I think I like to think that I use a bunch of it when I'm doing groups when something happens and starts I'd love to find a way to make people laugh and I'd like to think that the way I use humor is not insulting or built based on anger or based on deprecation and I don't undercut people I don't I if you know I never used humor where somebody's somebody's going to feel bad at the end of the thing I think I said I did that's never my intention but I'm wondering like I would love to have like a replay of meetings I've conducted where and humor I've used to see if I've been screwing that up a lot so so Judah thank you so much for sharing that but definitely your examples I resonate with me a lot I you you you make me wonder now is all humor does all humor have like a to me a shaming quality of a pushing down or a pushing out and I don't know if it does I'm not sure like sometimes it might write humor and joy like the mix up of there yes Jerry I appreciate your what your aim has been and how do how do I how do we look freshly at what we do and make new choices in what we do in a way that still has us be open and flowing and yeah and I go backwards to me is not so useful it's more of an openness looking forward and seeing how we can yeah how we can do more good and what we do what we say so maybe one thing to do and if this is possible is to create a safe feedback loop for when something goes wrong and and Lorelei you are brave and wonderful in doing this consistently and and like you are feeding back to us things that we might be doing or saying that it just aren't working in different kinds of ways and that's fabulous but also in in terms of you know uses of humor or whatever else just to be able to be able to say hey that didn't work or that didn't land or here's here's what what you know what was happening there but I think if we can keep that going then we can explore our way into this new way of being together and that might be helpful one one one option might be self deprecating humor it's almost always not threatening to other people if you make a joke about yourself so I happen to I happen to know the world's expert at that so it's David Weinberger like constant self deprecation all the time there's other very good people at it but man I say that could be an extreme that's unhealthy too I just want to say of all the things we've said today circle seems the most neutral at the moment I'd like I'd love to find something that for me is more energizing juicy or and I love the word up keto that you did thank you oh thank you how about flaming circle does that have more entry no okay not good not good I was just yeah and that was that was a little bit of humor with was that like that work okay that was fine and then jump to incendiary circles because we want to make trouble see see there we go now we're now we're logging so my dad I think one of his first jobs in the world was timber cruising in the Sierra Nevada so he went to Berkeley he became a civil engineer and I think I think his summer work was measuring stands of timber to cut down for logging and so one of his one of his sayings later was now we're logging which I'm not sure anybody says in the world but I'd like it's part of my vocabulary but I realized later like oh right now we're logging that's what loggers would say to each other Michael go ahead I thought you were just trying to jump in oh I just said good trouble when you were talking about incendiary oh awesome so having had our our incendiary conversation shall we wrap this call I think so yeah thank you so much this is ours yeah I love this conversation I appreciate your being here thank you thank you my head is spinning hi excellent in a nice way good in a circular kind of young Craig very good have a great day all thanks bye