 It's been a long long day. I got a lot to say. It feels like I'm carrying a two-ton weight. I go to see a friend. Hello, I'm Monsignor Patrick Winslow. And I am Father Matthew Cowth. And we are speaking from the Rooftop. A podcast brought to you by Tan Books, in which we invite you to join our conversation out here in the open air. Where we look out upon the world around us from the rooftop of the church and share with you what we see. Hello Father Winslow. Well hello dear father. How are you? Fine. How are you? You know that's another one of those words that convey so much meaning depending upon how one says it. Is that not true? True. You say to someone that has been scorned, what's the matter? Nothing. I'm fine. That's true. But it is a wonderful social lubricant. Because it gets you by without lying. That's true. That's true. It's a very fine word. It's fine. I've used it many a time. Indeed. That's a really good interest. That's an interesting topic right there. Right to know something. The right to know something. Yeah, you know, I think we've talked about it in the context of formation. When people inquire about your life, it seems just a little too personal. And yet you want to be honest because, you know, you want to be honest. And at what point are you being dishonest if you don't divulge more personal items? Or for example, can you sort of just only answer to a certain degree even though it's slightly deceptive? Right. It's almost like I'm talking to a moral theologian. I like to tell people that I have friends who are good moral theologians. I call them for all my loopholes. That's right. Yeah, I'm a little stickler on some of these things though. That's a good one. You know, there was a line that seemed Philip Neary used to use a lot. We just had his feast day not long ago. He got from the Song of Songs, which is segreto mia miji, segreto mia miji, which is just my secret is my own. And he would use that principally about those things that were most intimate to him relative to his prayer life or to sort of what was going on in his interior life and in a way shape or form. But he would do it with a sort of smile as the reports say in such a way that people didn't feel as if they were being shut down, but that there was something that was precious to him that he wasn't going to let out. And as priests, I think that one of the things that strikes me relative to our own interior life for better or for worse is that the faithful are always getting it. They're always receiving whatever is going on. Because what else do I have to give them? The Dominican motto is contemplate al istrade, which is to hand on to others when you yourself have contemplated. Did you always speak Klingon so well? Or is that Latin with a Klingon accent? Yeah, that's what it is on a big forehead. The idea is that you're handing on what you've seen, right, what you've contemplated, what you've studied, etc. And so clearly what one is receiving relative to homilies and things of that nature is something deeply about your interior. And even that you have to be sort of careful because it's the faith you're trying to review. Right, not yourself. It's not without you and the way in which you're affected by it. But relative to... Just like the regular circumstance of the door. Or like at the door of the church, someone says, Oh, Father, how are you? Oh, I'm fine. Or one of our seminarians, they're visiting for the weekend. Hey, how are you? What's your name? Where are you from? So what was it like in college for you? Or did you date? And suddenly it takes a turn towards the personal. And these young men, they're young, they want to be honest and sincere. But at the same time, at some point, do you just not answer or do you deflect? What is the right amount of depth for certain conversations? It's a certain art, I would imagine. Well, I think that the example you like to use of the onion is a good one. I mean, there are different layers that people should have access to. And no one has a right to force a layer. I don't think there's anything wrong with even doing so in a sort of kindly, and that's why I brought up Philip Neary, furtive or jocular way, to say if someone said to you, did you date a lot when you were in high school? Oh, Lord have mercy. It's been, for me, if someone asked me that, like, it's been so many years I couldn't possibly remember. That's right. I'd have to check a yearbook. I don't know. I mean, you can deflect it in a nice way to say you just crossed a line there that I'm not going to come across. Yeah. And well, sometimes it goes the other way, right? Where you say, hey, how are you? And they really tell you. Yes. And this was just a social way to say I care about you, but I'm not interested in hearing about it right now, right? We don't really mean that. People just mean to check in generally, not specifically. Well, it's true. And that's again, what you use that phrase social lubricant, because you're trying to treat other people with the same sort of relative kindness that you would treat a friend. But the language doesn't mean the same thing as when you say it to a friend. Right. So if I say to you when you just arrived at seminary, how are you? I don't expect to receive just fine. Right. You expect to go right down to a deeper layer? It's that. Talk to me about you. If that's where things are happening. I was at the grocery store the other day. And of course, again, part of the problem of dressing the way we dress, it's not a problem, but it's it confuses the language a bit. Because I said to the cash register girl, how are you doing? She goes, well, I had a really rough day. Oh, yes. Okay, here we go. I guess of course she sees what I've embraced. That's true. And so I felt bad for the people behind us because we just. Have a session right now. We had a whole session. Yeah. No, it's true. You know, I feel for people because when you're in social circumstances or when you're at work, you know, that's a totally different social dynamic. Some people don't want their personal stuff really widely known. It'll work context and yet at the same time, they feel pretty close to their coworkers. But those worlds don't really naturally collide or intersect. So it's kind of nice to have them different and a little bit distinct. But when you get into a conversation, people might start asking questions and it feels uncomfortable. That's probably a good indicator right there. When it starts to feel uncomfortable, a certain depth of information, probably better to pause. I always say when in doubt, choose silence. Because you can never take the words back. You can always go back and say something. It doesn't mean I always follow that advice. I run afoul of it all the time. But yes, I think when in doubt, choose silence or in this case, when in doubt, don't overshare. Because it's very difficult to pull that back. And you sometimes walk away feeling uncomfortable. You're exposed. You're socially violated, right? This wasn't right. This wasn't in my context. This person, I'm not comfortable having to share that much with this person. I feel as though I was pressured into oversharing. Or maybe circumstances drew things out of me and the person didn't want to hear it. And I actually did tell them things. And it's just better to choose silence when in doubt. Agreed. I totally agree with you. And that there are those layers, right? Explain your analogy there. So with men in formation and in general and having conversations with people who are looking for some pastoral guidance, I always say that when talking about levels of disclosure, that you have many layers. And appropriately or so. And it doesn't mean that we're duplicitous. The layers betray one another. But in fact, they're just think of it as a deeper color the more we go to the core. And it's okay and appropriate to interact with people at one layer or next, depending on where that relationship has fallen or where it's naturally grown to. But people don't have a right to suddenly insert themselves and go deep. That's not appropriate. And you shouldn't feel compelled just because some people are inquiring and some people are pestering. You know, they can be downright pestering about wanting to know about you. And it's flattering to a certain degree. Like that's nice that you have that interest in me. But on the other hand, whoa. Yeah, it's a voyeur. Stop looking my windows at me. This would take a full year of spiritual direction before I start talking about this. You want, you know, after two minutes of meeting you, turn around and write into this. That's a little exaggeration, but still it feels like that. So having, we're like an onion and the onion, it's integral. It's not compartmentalized, but it's just layers that go deeper. We have relationships that hit different layers. And sometimes, ideally they grow and they grow deeper. And for some people, when you come fast friends, it happens at a quicker pace. And you recognize that that happened so quickly that, hey, there's a unique connection here because that normally doesn't happen that quickly with someone. Or if there's somebody that stays in the outside for a while and that's just the way, because socially that's the way it works and it actually works nice and it's good to have people just there because it's exhausting to maintain deep friendships. You know, you can't have your hundred best friends. I don't know who can pull that one off. It's just just downright exhausting. I don't know how, I couldn't keep up with the texts if that were the case. So, you know, we're meant to have these different layers and it's not duplicitous. And we're not being false within someone else just because we're at a different layer. It's always a question that comes up in moral theology class relative to the nature of lying because you began the discussion by talking about people's right to know. And that was sort of a bifurcation of the topic. Wait, wait, wait. Before you jump in. So, you and I are familiar with this discussion. That's what I'm going to describe it. Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, just like what is a lie? What is a lie? And so there was a time period in one of the attempts to describe what a lie is is that you don't have to give someone information to which they don't have a right. And so when you're speaking, if the person doesn't have a right to the knowledge, you're dissimulating or saying something that's not consonant with the truth, not a lie. Because you're not trying to deceive. But that's not at all what the tradition used to say. That was an attempt by a particular religious order to make good on the fact that someone doesn't have a right to that. Yeah. And it gets into all sorts of interesting questions about wartime and camouflage and espionage and a thousand different topics. But St. Thomas takes his cue from St. Augustine and they're pretty severe on it because of the nature of what truth is. And because it's necessary for our salvation, necessary for our freedom, that's just the truth of salvation, history of the truth of Jesus Christ. But also just speaking the truth of people, if you don't do it, you can't be in a relationship with anyone. And because it's so important, St. Thomas and St. Augustine were quite severe on the fact that you can never ever say something that's contrary to the truth that's in your mind. Well, you can. You can. In terms of possible, you're not permitted to relative to sin. And so take it out of the realm of whether the person has the right to know that's getting back to your point earlier about you don't have to say anything. You can say things that are very clever at times if you're quick-witted. And I had a wonderful priest one time when we were discussing this and we're talking about the classic example of moral theology about, okay, it's, you know, to wartime World War II and I have Jews hiding in my basement and the Nazis come in, are you hiding Jews, right? And so at table we're going back and forth and all the things you could or could not say or whatever else. And this priest just looked at us and said, you know, you don't have in this scenario the gift of the Holy Spirit relative to counsel. Like, how do you know what you would do in the moment? Because this is going to require a kind of wisdom that you don't necessarily have in the abstract. And I love that answer that in the actual situation, it's a real situation with real divine grace and an appeal to the Holy Spirit. You might just come up with some sort of situation that you could never think of in the abstract that fits the equation. Right. And I appreciated that because it's true. It's what our Lord said about, I will give you the words to speak, but silence is always possible too. Well, you know, I remember reading a book. It's about these two Protestant women, they were sisters. I think they were somewhere like the Netherlands or Belgium in that region, Nazi occupation. They were helping Jewish families, Jewish people on the run, running for their lives. And they were in this situation. They were devoutly Christian. And because they were devoutly Christian, they were not succumbing to the darkness that was befalling their neighbors, particularly their Jewish neighbors. And they wanted to help. And so they were helping. They put themselves in harm's way. And they ultimately ended up in the concentration camp. But I remember a scene, and I apologize for those who may have read the book and they have a better memory of it than me, but I think this is the gist of it. They had hidden a person behind a panel in the wall when these officers came to the door and precisely asked the question, are you hiding any Jews? And the sisters were fastidious about not doing anything to offend the God and in particular the one sister. And she said, oh, we're hiding them in the walls. It came off so ridiculous that the officer heard it as her being snarky and ridiculous. But she told the truth. And they totally dismissed it and they checked around the house and then they left. But it was really, as you say, in the moment, the grace. She was not going to lie because of her convictions. At the same time, she had the grace in the moment to be able to articulate it in a way that made it sound like a complete gist. There's an example that St. Thomas uses when he's asking the question about the Egyptians and the Hebrew women when Pharaoh told them they had to slaughter all the firstborn, slaughter all the Jewish boys. And the Hebrew women and the midwives, they didn't conspire together, but clearly they didn't kill them. And so what happens when they ask the midwives what happened? And they said, well, the Hebrew women are just so robust, right? They have these babies to get there because they didn't want to kill them. That's right. And so Thomas asked the question, which is a really interesting question. Is God blessing them because they lied? Because it says that God blessed them. And Thomas' answer is, he blessed them because of their fear of the Lord. He didn't bless them because of the lie, which is a really good distinction today. Does it say that she lied? They lied to me. They could say, I mean, that could have been true. The women are. But oh, I guess they say they have birth before they get there. So there's some of that going on. Well, circling back to your opening statement, then, what sort of dissimulation or deflecting is possible and what's not? Oh, here we go. And that's a really interesting question. Call them worth theologian. Find the loopholes here. You know, because we do understand, no, because we do understand the language that we're all using. That's true. And so long as it is a common language, we know that that word fine doesn't mean that everything is fine. We know that it means that this is the end of the discussion. It's like a yellow and a red light in Italy. Everybody knows. Let me go. If you come to a hard stop, people are going to get killed. Oh, my heavens, yes. I've just been stepping on the gas. Yeah. So, no, you're right. I mean, what are these signs really symbolize? What is the common grammar? What else do we normally say in those passing moments? I remember there was a wonderful comedian. I think his name was Regan. And he was talking about the fact that we respond to everything so automatically. We don't oftentimes think about what we're saying. So, you're at the airport and you check in your ticket. Hit the little buzzer there and you walk on to the tarmac and the stewardess says, have a nice flight. You say, you too. That's right. Right, right. But you get the gist, right? You wish them well. You wish it well, right? Yeah. You wish the person well. Yeah. So, what are the sorts of things do we say that we could analyze to see whether or not in the common vocabulary, it's not being deceptive? I think if somebody said to me, I'm fine and I could see tears in their eyes. Yeah. I don't think they're lying to me. Right, they're not. Right. I think what they're saying is it's not appropriate or I don't want to impose. So, they're- I can get through this. I can get this or I'm giving you an out. Yeah. So that you don't get into something too heavy with me. So, I think you're right. I think that there are ways in which we could read that and understand that they're not being deceptive. They're trying to be gracious. They're trying to give you a gentleman's out or they're trying to read the room and say what's appropriate. But of course, most of us in that situation, if we saw them tears in their eyes, we're trying to pull them aside or you reach out them regardless of the circumstance or at least get them to a place where they could be a bit consoled. So, yeah, I think you're right. We have one seminary in here that when you ask him the question, I think you've worked with him to try to get him to not make an entire self-assessment every time someone says, how are you? Because he wants to enter. He wants to answer perfectly honestly. And he just stops. He's not afraid of awkward pauses or silences. And that's part of the reason we respond so quickly is that we want to fill the gaps with speech. We don't usually allow for a lot of silence in a conversation. And this individual will just stop and think for a while. It may be a long while. And then he might just say, I'm fine. Like, he's really checked in. He's done a system check. That sounds about right. You know, you're getting an honest response. That is, you know, you gotta love the charming. The colorful array of personalities that God has allowed us as individuals to possess. Isn't it true? It's great to appreciate them when you can. It can be hard sometimes because when you're dealing with somebody who doesn't react or relate to things in the same way you do, it's very difficult to read. Communication suffers. And for someone who's social, if you don't have good communication, that creates a very anxious place. You know, we might start speaking too much or maybe we need to pull away because I am, as a highly social person, I'm not able to communicate. And this puts me in a place I'm not normally in. A place where I can't socialize the way in which I'm comfortable or with the means that I have. And so you run away from it. But to be able to maybe overcome some of that anxiety and to just allow yourself to experience the difference in that person and that character, I think we'd be surprised how much we might truly appreciate or be amused by the other. Oh, I think so too. I mean, every character is, if it's true that everyone has made an image of God, it's not exactly the same. I mean, there's an infinite ways in which to reflect the Godhead. And so every person is a slightly different manifestation. Certainly the image of God is found in our own capacity to know and to love, but to know and to love as you. And that's slightly different than knowing and loving as anyone else. And I was thinking about two things of pedagogical concerns that are interesting or communication concerns that I was once told by a priest when he said, I have a thing that I do in communication with others where if I want them to speak and I want them to sort of speak more and divulge things, I don't think he meant it in a manipulative way. He said, I would look, I look down at my shoes. And I always remembered that. So it's a way of indicating that I'm in receiving mode? I guess so. And you're not in any way aggressive by looking directly at them, certainly not in a position above them. It always happens to be the case. And historically, when you design new offices for things of that nature that the important person gets the big chair, right? Because that posture makes a difference in people's minds sort of subconsciously. And I noticed, I never forgot that, but I was watching, in the first year we started the seminaries, watching our incredible Latin teacher, Dr. Nancy Llewelyn, who was really a singular metagogue. I mean, she's just really incredible at teaching. When she's going around the room and she calls them snap jewels, she snaps and then points at someone in sort of a misdirected way to give the answer. So you never know who's going to be called. And if you don't get it, she doesn't sit there and stare at you if you're seated and stand over you. She gets smaller and smaller and smaller. A really interesting tool to the point where she's usually on her knees, way beneath you, trying to get you to get the right answer. Like a beggar. And eventually, yeah. And eventually, if you still can't get it, she'll shift it over to someone she knows knows the answer. I see. And then you have to repeat it. And when you get it, even though you just copied, parroted, she does an aujet, which is, you know, well done kind of a thing. And it's really interesting that it so engages the individual if you want to get things right. Like we do when we're little kids. It's like a puppy wanting to treat it. At some point, you want to give it to them. Yeah. No, that's really, that's really well stated. And very well done on her part. Well, of course, she's incredible. Like there's any surprise on that. She's amazing. All right. So before we go, what do you have in your mind, if anything? I mean, we just entered after the fees of Pentecost, back into ordinary time. Yeah. Well, I have to say, this could be a whole talk at some point, but I think I know where you had it. We have to talk about this at some point. I discovered the most fun text in reading the Suma in Saint Thomas Aquinas. Sekuna Sekunik question 168 where Thomas says, it is a vicious thing and sinful to be a boar. So maybe it could be a topic. Yes, well, maybe the next one. I applaud a fantastic line from Saint Thomas. I think we're going to have to reflect up on that one. Tease it out. Tease it out. On a more mundane level. Do you have anything? Ah, well, my life is filled with mundane things. Well, I know, you're the administrator. Parc Salons. You know, I had a woman, we had an event this afternoon at the Paso Center in the diocese where we fed our staff, 100 people, food and things to have a little social event. She said, Father, you need to come down on Thursdays and give out food at the food pantry. And she said it in a way like you need to come. And as if I'm maybe not giving it its due attention. And I said, I would like to, that would be nice. And then she said it again. And I said, would you like to come up and do what I'm doing? Because I think five minutes you'd be running down to the food pantry and washing your hands of it. Please don't assume that I'm like, I'm up into my every castle. You're eating bombons. You know, to be quite honest, to give me any day of the week, I'd like to be down there and meeting people and handing things out. Yeah, so you just, I guess, you know, my words of, I guess my words of wisdom and my, before we go a little segment to say, appreciate the administrators in your life. You know, I used to say as a kid, you never, I never had to worry about toilet paper being in the bathroom or toothpaste in the cabinet, your milk in the fridge. And then as you get older, you realize, wait, that doesn't grow on there. Exactly. What happens when you run out, right? That means, oh, I need money. Oh, I got to go and store and get it. And those practical things. And in retrospect, you realize, I was taken care of. Somebody did that work. Somebody was concerned about it. Somebody did the ordering. Somebody got into the house. Somebody paid for it. Somebody put it out there. And you just say, oh, that's just growing up and maturing. But in the world of organizations in which we live, that's not dissimilar to administration. No, it's not. And I find it to some degree to be the same thing with our men. You know, when they get toward the end of their life in seminary, they begin to have a really difficult time. And I think it's because they're men. They've been men for some time now, but they're not fathers. If they want to be in charge of something, they want to have something that they can give themselves to, be responsible for. And then, of course, we get to our age and it's like, oh, wait, wait, wait, wait. Yeah, I'm done. I'm done. I'm done. I'm happy to surrender. I want to be a grandfather now. Yeah, I'm done. Give me the lounge chair. All right, so we can talk about both of these topics. I think we both hit big topics on the Before We Go segment. So we'll say goodbye and then maybe next time we'll touch on them. Have a great week. All right, chat, chat. Thanks for listening to this episode of From the Rooftop. For updates about new episodes, special guests, and exclusive deals for From the Rooftop listeners, sign up at rooftoppodcast.com. And remember, for more great ways to deepen your faith, check out all the spiritual resources available at 10books.com. And we'll see you again next time From the Rooftop.