 The original idea of this meeting was to talk about more formal organization for IT and stuff. Building an IT and team. So I had a rough idea, which we talked about informally. And I've been summarized by Super Nechal, who made this meeting. Hi, thank you. About building a translation team. Currently, the status is very easy. People use the translation and the people who are the more active are the de facto translation coordinator. And that's all. That is not possible. We probably don't want something too formal, but we still need to identify some important people. In case something is brewing for the, say, we have no Dutch around. So for the Dutch team, we want to have somebody to talk about. So that's basically what Nicolas summarized around here. On the screen. Do they see the screen yet? No. You can display it or not? We can't see that the camera doesn't take that. The camera doesn't take that, but this? Maybe you've made it bigger or lower. Because this is a wrong resolution? Wrong resolution and it does not agree. Okay, that doesn't matter. I will just read and sorry for the people who are just watching. So the point was building an IE team with the coordination from the old Vivian localization team. Meaning having at least one person per language. And make this the IE team. That was one of the most important stuff. The team could then define milestones for various stuff. Stable release. Stable freeze. The I release will not. I'm reading at the same time. Yeah, that would avoid each team to go some way and without maybe different things completing at the same time. And having a rush at freeze time, etc. And better coordinate interaction with the others. I think I tried to summarize what you said. You have the right to speak. You're speaking well. What could we do about it? Yeah, the proposal was to set up a periodic IE team of the IE team. Which would help in the beginning because very certainly at the beginning we would be very few. But improving the communication. And something very periodic. Something trying to something that fits everybody. Which is not easy for localization team. Because we have people. I know that at the beginning we would have people from Japan. Without certainly someone from Brazil. Many people from Europe. Probably from India too. That could happen. So, on the point would be to find the right time. With Felipe we also decided to have some IRC meeting. Something like every two or three weeks. You guys together. Yes, for the development of tools. And of course everybody will be welcome to join us. Maybe we should announce them on the IE team. Maybe on the first one. So, 1-L10N-TVEL. At least not IOT. But the VN.org on IOT. This is mainly on IOT. And that's supposed to be the place where we need to talk about infrastructure. And stuff like that. So, yeah, Nikola and Faw will have some cabal meetings together. They are having already. Which is why they interact very well. And they're building things in my bag. Without me knowing. So, that's interesting. What frequency could we set for such kind of meetings? Mostly. You're doing every two weeks or so. But we do not currently. Working together was really successful. During Mr. Pomf and also during the previous extra module meeting. We think that we need to just have some brainstorming. And some peer review of just to get some ideas together. The IOT meeting with people that tries to coordinate. Not developing infrastructure, but using that. That can be every 45 days or two months. Because it's more for setting the north. And reassess what's... Something more formal. Because we already know it would be difficult to... To organize and need an effort by everybody. From the DI experience. Each time in the past when we were doing real meeting. Don't watch my screens here. When we were doing real meeting it was always a hassle for me to find the right hour. Of course I was tempted to always choose the hour that fits my schedule. When somebody is plus nine hours and someone else is minus four, minus five. It cannot be convenient for everybody. So that would be a hassle then. And we had two more. For the conference meetings of the sponsor team. They have 20 people from very different countries and areas. And we use a doodle. Which is the way you can fold. Is someone taking notes or not? Nobody? Try to send some links to ILC. Because they are... I'm reading their ILC to see if there's anything to talk about. Yeah. What I've been told is that... Is someone monitoring ILC? I am monitoring ILC. Martin said that someone is sitting just in front of me. So I don't know what he's meaning by this way. I think that he has... Are you watching stream, right? It should be of work. That was a joke. Continue please. And then we use a doodle. We fold the lines and days every two hours. So like... We said we are going to have a meeting on one of these two weekends. And then we have several slots. And everybody says I can... I can do this time, this time, this time. And when we see a slot that everybody can do. Then we pick this and make them. So I can do the doodles for... Okay. You would volunteer to be the meeting organizer. That's good. What about the idea of having one coordinator? One coordinator per language? Are there any objections, comments or whatever on ILC maybe? I think it would be interesting to define what would be the role of that coordinator. I mean, it would be really interesting to have some common ILC sessions where the coordinator could meet and of course the other ones if they want. The point is also that if we do not define anything special, I'm not thinking about power to do something. Just more about commitment. Yes, yes. The very same comment on ILC by Martin Baguio-Pronter. Depends on what that coordinator should do. Caronaca, maybe not everybody knows about Caronaca. Utopia in Caronaca is either of the In-Linux project and it knows a lot about localization in big languages. So what about Caronaca? I think the first coordinator task would be to represent to be the voice of the team of Caronaca. Of course for one person teams it's obvious. For bigger teams like German, Spanish, French, I forget a few, Brazilian, etc. Most often we have some people who are already quite coordinated, that's more the task. We present the team and also report back to it which involves some commitment of course. Any other idea of what would be the task of the coordinator? Whenever you search for what other projects you're doing last year or next month or in December, Fedora has the most well-documented groups, Sides of Wound. They have a coordinator with pictures, they have the logs of their meetings, they have the schedule for each language team and also for the IATN team. They have the contact of the coordinator and they have a formal structure. I think they even have a kind of election stuff. Yes, it's recently been changed. It's not exactly what we're usually doing that in, but as we said, maybe we can start with the teams that we know are organizing and doing this experiment. So we start with two, three, four teams that volunteers try to have because they already have a coordinator. It's just not something for, I know that for several projects there are coordinators. You are coordinating the DI and you have translation coordinators for each language which actually are your content. Yes, inside DI, this is what I was about to explain but mostly inside the IATN I already had to separate some such things. And for the web pages there are also coordinators. If you go just to the international page, there is who is the coordinator for that language. I don't know if they overlap, but there is this option. Maybe for the other teams there are no coordinators but then it's just a matter of having the team just acknowledge it because it's more to set common goals. And of course if it's one, only one person team, it's doing the best they can. The person can, but for the other teams, it's best if they can coordinate to release notes now and then peel that conflict again because we are not in freeze and then DI and all this is not the time to work in DI because it's a strong development. So that's working something else. What are the roles for a coordinator probably going to be when certain members still accept submissions directly from the DI because you have got closed or subscribed only mainly for some language team. Yes. And maybe there will be a half to 70 volume and it will fall back to the core later. It's the message to the main post. Yeah, I see your point. Given and for the use of... I think it would work for us. More than one email address. Yeah, translation. You can use the PCC. I'm thinking about the Vietnamese names. They use something on Google Roots. Yeah. But it can overload a coordinator for all the more active team that can overload a coordinator. Yeah, that's a good way. You should take care to not overload. But after all, we could have more than one person. I don't think there is a need to have a boss from one to one only for every team. We could have two. You mentioned Felipe. I think I know the person who is responsible for French for the web. That's not me. I generally act as coordinator of the French team, but I don't know everything about the French team work so that we could be two persons for French and there could be two for Spanish or whatever. I think we should not limit that. If a given team wants to dominate more than one person, as long as these people are in agreement and contact group, that will be even better. I'm thinking about the problem that I experienced also from the experience when using pure-dead conflict with you. I think it could be something that I can put in the pure-dead conflict with you to ensure that there are no policies. Excuse me. For the future, I think we need to also be coordinators for the translation of the instructions. Something like this with some special commands to make a more technical coordinator. What Philippe showed me a while a few minutes ago about his work, the way he works, and yes, there is some technical stuff and all the people who post the to-do messages for pure-dead conflict as well, that can be internal to each team or it comes to my next point, advertise. If we have coordinators for teams, do we advertise them somewhere? Do we mention the website, the names? We already have for the I and for the website, they are already advertising. Which in the IRC they are talking about is that our divided leadership, their situations of faults, large teams can be harder. If we go for a coordinator for language, it can be very hard for one coordinator to coordinate all the texts like translations, EI, PLDOM, website. This is the four major documentation and in our upstream, I think this is the main six areas that we work. So one coordinator for six, for the larger teams, for the larger branch, Brazilian, Japanese, German, Spanish, they are very... Dutch check. Then the largest teams, let's say, maybe the coordinator can be the only one person, but still, maybe the coordinator doesn't need to... Do the larger... Yeah, but then the larger teams tend to be easier. He can have the teams active and talk with them and he only needs to be the point to bring the meetings to say, hey, our translators are complaining that we miss this feature in this tool or that we are lacking this for the infrastructure or that the mountaineers are not helping with this to get through so we can go as an IT and make a request. Because we don't have any doubts who is going to be the IT and coordinator if we have one IT and coordinator, right? And then it's just to be a big team with all the other coordinators, but still it's... It's unclear for me if... For Brazilian Portuguese, for instance, it would be like for meritocracy because I'm doing this for quite a while and everybody knows that when they have doubts, I can mostly solve the problem. But I know that the German team is not that united. They have some... I think me and Ronda can say better about it, but from my point of view, it's not very well-connected all the parts of the translation, right? Yes. The translations of the package description, for instance, are done by most of the random people Jens, that sent this mail to the main user and David and I can add. David is a German, of course, for people to work on translations and given that the interface is anonymous and doesn't require any login, there's no real trace of who is actually doing stuff. There seem to be some people who do stuff in there with various of quality, but different styles and things like that. It's not really... It's not coordinated at all. It's hard to get that into some shape to see a way how to get feedback through to the people that did this thing there. For the website team, it's mostly currently on the area transplanting the translation for the website. For the I, I think it's Dennis. Dennis vanished a while ago, I'm afraid. Dennis Stamper. Most of the work for the I is done if I remember either by Helge for once again or Jens, maybe Jens Seiden. Yes. The only thing that is really done in a coordinated way from what I see is a few different translations or maybe even more broader PO files for different things too or some other pages. These all go through the robot and actually effectively is working with the robot and getting the review system through that. But most of the other parts are not really well coordinated. It's different papers to each of the areas. That would be... I think it's German. It would be an example of a team who could have problems to define its own coordinator. Definitely. What's the meaning of coordinated? Some sort of person who has an overview of the bigger system. That's the thing how I see a coordinator. Someone who sees the big picture and who knows what's going on in the different areas. It's not someone who really has to do the work but he should know whom to follow with a specific area and whom to hand on people if not proxy. Should know the best practices. The right times. When we have the eye working fully with no freeze, there is no point in translating things in the eyes because we are going to lost your work very soon because the templates are changing very fast so we have to wait. You should let 12 months pass but you don't need to do that every week as we do freeze time. So best times to do the things and best tools. I think that's also part of the coordination and closing package description. It's a solo. I think that one of the questions that is probably around the stuff is that for Brazilian Portuguese everybody knows that everything must pass through the list. We have this rule when I arrive and we have this rule now. Nobody should send anything without passing through the list. These forces have a full key way on everything. Even DTDP. Nobody should start translating on DTDP before talking to the list because there are rules for everything. Which is something that I may interrupt that is theoretical practical. Everybody can hear you go to the DTDP and translate for Brazilian. Yes, they can but usually I keep track of it. What? Not something. I'm not blocking anything. I'm keeping track because in the past we had bad experiences with people not using the menu to review things and sending bad translations. But this is what I want to ask. This brings the questions that do we want to force all the things to have the same key process and do not accept bad translations? For Vietnamese for instance we know that we have only two or three people. We're working if at all two or three. Yes, actually we are there I think there are more people but like he is boxing everything and in practice she guarantees she is guarantee I don't know how she ensures guarantee guarantee yes, of the quality but I have no idea if this is right or not. We can see if the Russian translation is well done because most of us don't speak Russian but for the QA team it's for larger teams like we know German is large we know French is large for those teams then maybe because we are dead and we do things right and there is the copyright thing and there is the QA thing and there is all this stuff if you can force the things then we can force the translator and say guys you have to vote here is the system to vote choose somebody and the process now I don't know I think this is not right no I think this is two points first of all the coordination different thing if I coordinate translation that's never two person translates the same at the same time this is coordination the other is QA it's a different thing and if you have a rule in Portuguese if you like to get every translated description I can give you this I can automatically every upload every new change to your menu if you like I think it's not nice that if you have some Portuguese if you like to translate something oh you must remember in this you must use my words I think this is not good and I talk some words of Nicolá and with Christian about this loss of translation I think have we some translations that was in the beginning and now go to have we loss of translators from our team this is not the way I see this happen I see people going that's a problem so I see people I've not seen people quitting the French team to go to the open to localization team but as a natural process the French team is losing some people who are losing interest et cetera and you doesn't come and I suspect that this is a feeling that the more new people go to the open to because this is easy it fits one some of your concerns some people indeed I'm pretty sure go to the open to and Rosetta because you just have to register and blah blah but that leads to quality assurance problem you have to find this balance between guarantee the quality assurance without being too strict this is what you meant be too strict versus people so that they still enjoy it it also haven't really depends on which area the translation is for especially if it's some package documentation stuff I don't think it's that important that it has good quality because not everyone is going to read it and they are usually reading it only for help if they need to get deeper into it but this is my biggest concern with package descriptions it's the first thing that they use the seas of a package and we really should aim for some sort of quality in that area because a bad translation will tell the user it's only drugs pumping around here it brings new us again to the quality problem so I think we are all that quality good quality translation but it's needed to start some different areas that's what I wanted to say it's more important in some areas than in others also some if you want to get a new translator it has to be full translator the entry point has to be brand-new that's the wiki techniques or whatever if I agree with you that there has to be some quality control but this quality control probably will be done by formally this translation it doesn't have to be obvious it has to be very easy for instance if I want to get my wife involved it can't be harder than wikipedia if you manage to develop wikipedia so we need to find a way to I know people to join easily yeah that was the commenter Eddie Petizio joined the Romanian coordinator I would say just joined that was the comment Puzo can be an easy entry point it's very similar in some way to Rosenta who can offer this easy access but still we need a way to implement the review processes which are needed what I mean is that I don't want to force all the names I mean one of the ways to do that is if you force you have to elect a coordinator and then these coordinators can say nobody translates without if not using Rosenta then this is the call of the coordinator but how a team can decide right now how a team can decide that we don't want anybody to use Boto or DTTP everybody will use only DTTSS you only use the main interface like Japanese guys because they are working together but how can they say if one guy came to us and said please turn off the Japanese interface on DTTSS because we will use the main interface it's not clear for me how we can decide that for them how we can take the decision how it's technical it's not public no technically it's not a problem but socially because it's their team they manage that it's their team right? your point is that still we need to give coordinators a way to control the process to the use of the team and probably the philosophy or the way to see things can be different from the German to the Brazilian even if it's a very cultural change some cultures will want to do it and they will want to exclude certain instruments even if they have 5 coordinators 1 for each area or 6 coordinators then it's easier because you know this is the Japanese coordinator it's selected but he can say please turn off the DTTSS or turn off the main interface it's not technically a problem but we don't have this person I like to have something like this we have it in the past we have it in the past 40dp and he was I like to get 1, 2, 3, 5 he was this key person for this decision and I don't like to read the Japanese email and see 2 persons are for 4, 5, 4 1 for you you say you need a coordinator who can speak for the team yes for the team and I think it is useful for the future that brings us the point we cannot decide everything now suddenly we will have more discussions about this but we are still converging on the idea of this but I think we are converging to the idea that we will have multiple coordinators in their expertise areas as Martin mentioned on ISE about the loan provider doing the work of course the system should not refrain these people to do it Martin did a lot of work recently for Swedish but this is because there was nobody actually there was no coordinator for the work he is doing suddenly he popped up and he is the coordinator you are the coordinator Martin you were nominated and so de facto there is a coordinator for everything at one time he was one for Romania now there are more there is more than one person but he is still the coordinator right no global objection to the idea of having at least one person and trying to nominate even for the loan cowboy loan cowboy I have many of these for the art for the most I would say because exotic languages of course I have only one person and we lose them sometimes we don't regard everybody still so we would advertise these people also so I need something maybe think about some easy way to do that because for the ISE crappy XMN file bad node database whatever you know me could we add a page on the wiki to I don't know maybe something like ISE team and start listing the the teams and the coordinators on the wiki yes why not I'm just looking on ISE what's said Eddie Eddie is more in favor apparently it's the control method of work so I think we would quite easy most of the team would converge to a control system if someone wants more open system especially when there are very few people and it's up to the coordinator to not scare away those people who come and want to translate one point for the QA it was one to do list for tomorrow for the next high-end session for ISE the problem with the quality if we get the translation stable and the stable needs manager say we will be allowed in future to make updates for stable and for the point releases or some amount or some kind of system and I have a problem with somebody use the email interface and put spam maybe in the translations and then maybe one day before the releases and then this spam go to the release of some kind of system and it's quite really for updates to stable package we definitely need to do some review for tomorrow I'd like to make some pictures and show it that I'd like to put the normal translation in the current system go only to unstable then we have some group reviewers official they can put click on the web page that's an interesting idea put some translations to the stable set that we have a frozen stable set and somebody can change something and you get to do this for this little team which you can put it on the other side maybe you should create a set of trust in the DDSS or in DTTP some sort of trust accounts and all those accounts do not get added officially to the database until a coordinator approves or something like that we make a website we make a website a site of one way as a task that everybody can put translations if you find some errors or something like this fix a mail to the manager of the language then everybody from the language coordination team can get it and put it on the other side fix the spelling error can put it in the system for normal feedback we have some comments on IC I must agree with the mountain the detail of the implementation we need time to do it and I think currently we are setting up the global at least coordinators I like the idea of the DDSS being easy to do in unstable and some really easy manager for package description that would be but if it's possible to implement that's an interesting idea so I don't know about this idea of coordinators that's fine I think we went around we have a few potential coordinators around for few language teams one for Brazilian probably one for French we have probably one for Catalan over there taping we have for Romanian he said nominate and I will nominate anyway so maybe I don't know who for German what would you guys think about two months meeting schedule he was not there and we talked about that so maybe we have time to react on ISE Corona car is okay so that's good Corona car if you are listening to me I would very much welcome if you could act as a kind of super coordinator for the English language because you know we have 10 minutes left and because we know that you know the guys yes you do it okay, thank you and he did not react so he is nominated as well for Romanian no position for two months meeting I would like to have the reaction of Japanese people then she is probably too late probably their opinion for that kind of comment we quote that yes we quote that and that will be nice we have more free time okay what about ISE team and that stuff we discussed that the first meetings maybe yes maybe on the screen you can go to the federal meetings meetings now go to ISE I sent the link okay I go to ISE before I think that has always been the question of who is part of the team who enters the team example of federal ISE meetings I hope I could explain some very sensitive stuff I am watching porn site or whatever on the right what do you want me to put on the right on the left agosha I can use I think the people on ISE can go to this Fedora project Wiki and 10M meetings so yes okay this is displayed so you wanted to make a comment Nikolaas just give some idea of what they are doing can you go down there is a list of meetings past meetings past meetings okay ISE, log, summary et cetera can you give some idea they met three times in April and then in July this is the release the release was I remember that they had some problems in the end of 2007 and it was very sparse or very little people but they have strong meetings also we should report a bug because it's written 2008 and anyone knows about the Fedora bug it's a tracking system okay fix it yourself okay we will fix the bug online or we must log in blah blah blah this is our user you see this is the problem yes this is the problem it makes 1.2% but who knows if I'm right to change 2008 to 2007 so finally seriously speaking that's very interesting to see you can also remove meeting in the URL yes maybe everybody is doing the same thing on your laptop so now we are wiki you can jump to teams I think there is a link 1.3 teams teams teams are completely managed and translated Fedora project this is the one you wanted me to this way you can learn some French as well yeah okay whoa they have a lot so there are a lot of things they have a coordinator for all these languages I don't think okay that makes what was the estimation about what was the estimation about could it be that they've got coordinators for the rest but those ones that are out of date these teams do not have any coordinator this team doesn't have any coordinator you can see your mouse on the explanation mark it will appear as far as French but not in French yeah just click on the gym and you will see the list of coordinators and maybe a list of translators we'll make your favorite for Kaonaka we'll pick on Indy and I hope you will discover this is Kaonaka I don't think he's an Indy speaker I don't know I was back so Kaonaka was asking who is next to you who is next to me Andrea Stille Kaonaka Wunderbar so this is the next example yeah so the team I'm with Rajesh Pancham the coordinator with an IAC yeah that's interesting because they have formalized the structure and it's interesting how you need to keep and put this in a database we had 5 minutes less 5 minutes ago so I think we will shut this meeting down the next IATNM meeting for this is meant for the people okay and if you missed I do not have this anyone having this yes 15 this is tomorrow tomorrow okay it's reloading 8 o'clock 20 hours 20 so that makes it quite late for people in Europe I'm sorry for that even more late for people in India and well enough for the people from Japan so I can see the DDP and preparation for the point will be DDP and preparation of the extremadura meeting maybe we will cut in half so we will have to be very concise about both one part about the status of the DDP to the list and another part preparing the extremadura meeting probably in November okay thank you so much