 I am Sparsh, I am the Vice President of Unicondia Ventures, we are an early stage VC fund operating out of India. So today we are here to basically discuss about this new phenomenon or maybe a surge in the phenomenon that we all have been noticing, that more and more startups or entrepreneurs are coming, not from Kormangala or Hawaii or you know Cyber Hub, but rather from Hinterlands, from Bihar, from Surat, from Tamil Nadu and from Jammu and Kashmir. So we are basically here to understand some of the nuances, what learnings that are here and for that we basically have three panelists with us. I would like to just with the permission have a small kind of introduction to all of you. So first we have Sushant Kumar with us, mostly known for being the founder of Dehath. Dehath is for the people who don't know is one of India's largest market linkages firm. It's a firm that I wish I had invested in, but never had the chance to. So Dehath has been valued recently at 700 million, has raised 220 million till dates, started off in Bihar, now has Temasek, Prasiu, Safina and Sequoia on the cap table, who's and who's of the investing world. So Sushant had worked previously on a farm and farmers foundation. It was a prestigious tech-enabled farming tools and he's an IITN. He happens to be from the badge of my elder brothers from IIT Delhi. So happy to have you on the stage, sir. Next we have Hemindra Mathur with us. He's the venture partner at Bahadur Innovation Fund, specializing in investing in agri and clean tech and healthcare. He's also the co-founder of ThinkEG, it's a non-profit working on driving innovation in the agri space. He has had an illustrious career before that. He was the MD at SEA of India, a global impact investor. He was the ED of YesBanks for an agri fund, so a very illustrious career. And to round up the panel, we have Manish Bapnavitas. He's the director of RFPIO, recently renamed to Responsive. He was also working at Auler before that and he has held multiple product management and software development roles in his career. Yes, and I would be Sparsh, your moderator for the day. So with this, we'll be starting off the session. So let's start with you, sir, Hemindra, in the order of seniority. So you are an investor, I am an investor and we have been seeing this happen in front of our eyes. Just wanted to get some nuances out of this. So more and more we are seeing startups coming out of the hinterlands. But at the same time, we hear or we feel that a lot of resources, a lot of capital availability, a lot of human resources and sometimes even the TG exists concentrated in metros. So while we are talking about this narrative or maybe the reality that there's a surge in the hinterlands, what's your view on it? What's the nuanced view that we would like to present to the audience? Thanks Sparsh. I think when it comes to TG, I think things are changing very fast. I believe like the income pyramid in metros have more like a diamond with the middle class belgium. That phenomenon has sat in rural areas also called hinterlands. So I don't think TG is an issue. I think another important parameter is aspirations of becoming homogenous. So thanks to social media, thanks to 4G, thanks to smartphones, a person in Kalahandi or a Barabaki, I think he's equally aware of what's happening around, you know, not just in his territory but around the world like we do. So I think the aspirations are becoming homogenous. Everyone is looking for best product, best services, best health care, best education, good roads. So I don't think the aspiration levels are different when we compare Bharat with India. But for any business model to be successful, I think you need to crack four A's. So one is of course aspiration, second is awareness, third is accessibility and fourth is affordability. I believe we have cracked first two, which are aspirations and awareness. I'm very hopeful accessibility is improving in the next five years thanks to highways, expressways, Delhi Meerut is one hour, Delhi Sonipat, Delhi Panipat, everything is like one hour which is used to take three hours. So that is bound to change the landscape of hinterlands, railway network. So both digital connectivity and physical connectivity will make more and more products and services accessible to smaller towns. The biggest challenge for any startup or any company is the first mile and the last mile. I think with those transactional costs can come down significantly because of better logistics and infrastructure, business models will pivot to cater to the hinterlands. Affordability is a matter of time. I know the per capita incomes are lower, smaller towns, but so is cost of living, right? So maybe another 10 years, so I'm very optimistic that things are bound to change. Another point I want to make is specific to agritech sector. I think this is one of the sectors which has converged India and Bharat. A lot of solutions and Shashank is a great example out of Patna. Build in Bharat and build for Bharat, a very rare breed, but I also see hundreds and thousands of startups in cities like Bangalore and Pune and Hyderabad and Chennai working, building solutions for all over India. Now for solutions, those solutions to scale, you need a lot of entrepreneurs on the ground, right? So for agritech to become mainstream, tourist that's a hundred million farmers, you need those entrepreneurs who are on the grassroot because they understand the grassroot situations, they enjoy a lot of trust and credibility among farmers, right? So I think in a way, this growth of agritech is bound to drive a lot of entrepreneurship at the grassroot level. So you'll see a lot of guys running processing centers, building warehouses, running drones, collecting data, I think they're like silage stations. There's so many models which were not viable will become viable, right? So I think it's a great convergence of India and Bharat bringing two worlds together and hopefully that will drive jobs, that will drive entrepreneurial spirit and that will drive demand. A lot of these guys I'm talking about, even if they're working on a part-time basis, they earn somewhere between 8,000 rupees to 20,000 rupees a month, which is significant in those particular geographies. So you are in a way creating wealth in those markets. So I remain optimistic, I think Bharat is the future. So far, as I always say, most of the business models are built for maybe top 500 pin codes in India. You're right, HSR layouts, Gurgaon, Inje Vadi, these are the places where you go test market and scale your businesses. The next set of entrepreneurs are the ones who want to build solutions for 7,000 pin codes in India. I think that's going to transform the hinterland. So Himeed, I was hearing your response and I actually have a follow-up. If I may be the devil's advocate and then say that I as an investor see, okay, let's keep aside, let's say AgriTech or some of the kind of sectors which rightly should be placed in the hinterlands, right? They don't have no place being in like, you know, Kormangala. But let's talk about SaaS and I also like Manish sir to kind of weigh on this later on. But let's say for example, for SaaS I've been seeing that start of start in the hinterlands but then this very quickly kind of migrate to these core areas. First of all, do you see that happening? Secondly, what are your views on this? And how do we kind of rectify this? Because there must be some pain points, right? For these entrepreneurs that they're moving away, right? So how do we rectify this? You're right, I think three or four pain points and I think Shajang would be in better position to talk about it because he has faced those in his journey. But I think first and foremost, I would say, incubation in tier 233 cities is either lacking or poor, you know? And I'm not talking that we need to create 1000, 2000 incubators, it's about the quality of incubation. Do you have people who can support these young start-ups when they need a lot of hand-holding? So I think that has to go up multiple notches. It could be the local engineering college. It could be a local university who can take up them and it. And I think government is, through hotel innovation mission, is also trying to achieve that. So that's one. Second is talent. Data scientist in Bangalore is easy. In Chandigarh, Patna, Bihar, any, even in tier 2 towns, Jaipur, for example, is tough. How do you find those guys who can work with you? How do you build a team sitting in those places, right? So I might be headquartered in Jaipur, but my tech team is going to sit out of Kaurangalaya. So I think that has to change. So for that, thankfully, there is enough talent factories in rural areas. Oldest IIT is IIT, Kharagpur, which is the hinterland, I would say. Now, IIT Roorkee, I am on the board of Incubator at IIT. Mindy, fantastic start-ups out of those places. Then there you have IAM, Bodh Gaya, and things like that. The challenge is that talent doesn't stay there because the ecosystem is underdeveloped. So I think that has to change. We need to build regions and opportunities for these guys to stay there. And last but not least, the investment there. All investors are lazy. We love deals coming to us. How many of us go to the deals? It's very rare that people go to the deals. So I think that mindset also has to change. And thankfully, there's some bit of saturation in the bigger towns and the valuations are going beyond, I would say, investors' appetite, in a way. So they are looking for proprietary deals. They're looking for some good entry valuations. And Pomi, tier 2, tier 3 rounds are the perfect places to go out and scout for deals. So I'll just quickly one minister to kind of weigh on this. So you have been building a SaaS, a global SaaS company, its operations in India. So I think it would be a very pertinent question for you. Do you feel these pain points, building a SaaS business in Coimbatore, what do you think your life would have been easier if you were in Kormangala? I don't think so. That is difficult because, again, with the connectivity, with the 4G, 5G that we are talking about, again, our team, again, though we say that, OK, we are based in Coimbatore and working with 20% of the Fortune 500 companies, we still have our team, which is remote. Again, we have few people in Noida. We have few people in Surat. We have few people in Pune, Bombay. So we have it throughout the location. I don't think CT matters now. And with this change in the hybrid, again, we have our team completely diversified. But what I would also say is, cities like Coimbatore have actually complimented the tier one cities because it's not competing with them, but rather it's complimenting them. Because if you see the lease in the tier one cities have gone super high. And again, I'm hearing this about Bangalore where it's going to 100, 200 per square foot, which is way too high. And I've seen all these big enterprises now having their satellite offices in tier two cities in Coimbatore. In fact, I can say that at least there are eight to 10 big companies that have seen, have set up their smaller office in Coimbatore because there's a lot of talent from Coimbatore, which moved to cities like Bangalore and Chennai, which we can easily see. Again, just give me an example. I was working in Bangalore and to get a train ticket or a bus ticket on a Friday evening from Bangalore to Coimbatore what's next to impossible. The same thing like going from Coimbatore to Bangalore on a Sunday night, what's next to impossible. That means I have to book at least two or three months in advance. So that means that's a big talent pool sitting in the tier two cities like Coimbatore, Salem, again, I'm just talking about Southern India, which because of this hybrid and the remote work, they're settling over there and it's an opportunity for big enterprises to have their offices in smaller cities and which will complement their bigger cities. So Sushank, you are the entrepreneur on this panel. So what is your view on this? So you have worked in Patna, you have now also worked with the global investors. You have seen the entire spectrum of things, so to say. Do you agree with this? Do you agree that enough has been done in the hinterlands for an entrepreneur to succeed, where the lacunas that you see or from your experience, decades of experience, where do you think we are lacking and we can do better? I think before talking about where do we lack, I think we'll start maybe from what Hemant said that things have been changing very drastically and if I just recall our own journey at Deha. Firstly, I think I've been thinking, I mean, that was back stage conversation that what can be a better word of hinterland? So that's a food for thought for the entire house, right? I mean, I've been facing this question that building business out of hinterland. So again, I think keep thinking that what can be the better word. But in our case, I think it was a natural journey, right? If you have to work with farmers, if you have to work for farmers, so then you have to stay closer to them, right? It's very simple that the entrepreneur, it has, they have to stay closer to the problem statement. So like so that's exactly what we did. You're talking about Patna, we started in 2011. We set up our Patna office in 2014. So first three years, in fact, forget about Delhi or Bangalore, we didn't even have our office at Patna. Why? Because that was not needed at that point of time. We set up our Gurgaon office in 2018, like when we really wanted to strengthen the tech team or so. I think it's not fair to generalize that what is, and I think for country like India, for any of the sector or sub sector, there is no fixed template to run the machine or basically to pursue your dream. I think we did what was right and whenever there was a need, right? When we felt that no, out of Patna, it's very difficult to getting tech talent and that's how basically we set up Gurgaon office and so on, so on, right? But still out of even as on date, as rightly said, so we are still headquartered at Patna out of a workforce of total 2000 almost, not almost like more than 16, 1700 people they are located in districts, not even talking about like we do have offices in Lucknow, Jaipur, Omi, Bipuna, Indore, but I'm talking about core districts whether it's Khandwa, Gurgaon of the world or Nasik, Sangli or Muzaffarpur or Aligarh for that matter. So I think in our case, I think we did just like, you know what we thought that probably this is the need. As far as raising funds investment have been learning through our own experiences and for us it was very important to basically to see the equal amount of excitement in the person who is going to invest. So for us, I mean, whether it was important for the other person or not, but more than that it was very important for us to see that whether that someone is ready to come to fields side or not. And on a lighter note, I mean during the field visit to jo jitna remote district ota tha wahaan leke jaath eten. So right there were few operating districts close to Patna where I think the field visit could have been done within a day. But we used to take it to maybe the further district like which is like six hours from Purnia, right? The person should also understand ki kitna pain lena padra a ground level pe or what exactly you are building, right? Whether you are not very comfortable to come for just one visit. People are building business models where farmers are ordering any agri input and you are delivering in less than 24 hours, right? India is talking about 40% post harvest loss and you are aggregating from those remote locations and your post harvest loss is less than 1%. So people should understand these things. So I think that's all I think we have been seeing. But to answer your question, I think we have found enough set of people whether investors or banks or the companies or the prospective people or employees, I think getting more comfortable to visit so-called the hinterland. And that's why I'm saying that the things have been changing very drastically. I think as on date, I don't see, I don't see challenge. We don't find challenge, let's say recruiting people or expecting someone who belongs to Maharashtra and working in the rural area of Rajasthan or vice versa. I think we are not seeing those challenges largely because of what Heminder said that physical digital connectivity, it's at different level. Probably I think it was possible for me to manage all this trajectory because I came from that place. So I always, and I think all of us as an entrepreneur, we are always a forward-looking person, right? We are always a very ambitious, optimistic person. So we looked at each other at some point of time. We used to walk to travel to school for five kilometer. We used to study in Laltain versus that now there is a 22 hours power supply. But it was easier for us like who have seen those days but versus that today, it's a different level. Whether you go to Odessa or MP or wherever, you'll find amazing physical as well as digital connectivity. The traction what we are talking about, I think it's just, it's an obvious outcome of two data point. When we say that 50% of our population is in the range of 25 years old, right? When we say that 70% population, they are in rural tier two, tier three. When we say that, that for first 50 million internet user abhogia, let's build for next 500 million internet user. And then when we say that as a problem solver, you have to stay close to the problem statement. So then whatever traction we are seeing in the hinterland, I think that's pretty obvious. It has to happen. And nobody, literally nobody is feeling shy in visiting those hinterland, right? I mentioned, I mean, each of the investors whether the, I mean, each of the investors whether Sequoia or processor, everyone. They all visited in a field location. I think one or two of our board meetings, I mean, it don't happen in Gurgaon. And we make sure that it would happen closer to the field side. Maybe at some paddy field or grief field, right? And we all, we all enjoy. The simple reason is because things, things have been changing. And still it has a long, long way to go. But abhi tagitna ho hai to aage bhi ho gai. Definitely, I as a VC can kind of concur what he's saying because, you know, having worked in this space for now five, six years, I realized that just five, six years ago, there was not so much pressure on VCs to go and, you know, source from the hinterlands. Or let's, you know, let's just stop saying hinterlands. Let's just say Bharat. Maybe that would be a good alternative word. So there's now a lot of impetus from the investor side also to go out and look out for these kind of opportunities because opportunities are being built there, right? At the end of the day, VCs investors will follow those opportunities. I have a follow-up, Sashank. So, you know, you mentioned in a line that, you know, entrepreneurs are very forward-looking. They're very ambitious. I think I'll add an adjective to that. They're also audacious, right? And the kind of audacity to build these multi-billion-dollar businesses at times, especially when, you know, you are coming from a small place, you might have not so much exposure, right? We are privileged to be from elite institutions but not the entire country, right? But they're still building. So what intrigues me as an investor is where is this audacity, where is this drive coming in the, you know, tier two, tier three, tier four cities, even villages that, okay, I will not go do a Sakari job. I will not sit for, let's say, you know, competitive exams. But I'll build a business. I'll be an entrepreneur, you know, and I'll fight with these big city boys and girls. Where is this coming from? So, I think firstly, though, I don't buy this notion, you know, that let's say that every startup or organization, it gets started with an aim of building a multi-billion dollar or so, right? I mean, value, I think it's just a, it's an outcome, it's a byproduct. And I think as a stakeholder, all of us, I think we should change, or we should find a better way. It's a simple thing, right? For example, while introducing me, instead of saying that, you know, that Dehaath is valued $700 million, I think you could have said that, no, they are working with more than 2 million farmers. So the point is, this is not where you start your journey. At least on day zero, I don't think, or like if, like few of us, or if any person think in this way, according to me, that's not the right way. On day zero, nobody thinks that, you know, that will build. Yes, everyone wants to build something very big, very large, but not like in terms of multi-billion dollar yoga. But, yes, going back to your question, I think where is this coming from? Because I would say, again, the, see, information discovery is not a problem, right, these days. So everyone is very well aware of, even in the deep, rural location, that what's happening today in India, right? And I think this is one good, I would say, point, where the various stakeholders are there talking, more or less the same thing, whether it's government, whether it's academic institution, whether it's different types of investors or entrepreneurs, right? So everyone is more or less talking about building in India, right? I mean, instead of being a job seeker, right? I mean, be a job creator, right? So those notions, philosophies, like the youth or baby people, they are hearing more or less the same thing from different channels. And the outcome is, that's the outcome, that's the reason why you're seeing that this is coming from there, right? And hence, there is an acceptance, right? At least today, again on a positive note, at least today if any person, you know, when they express their interest to their family members or parents in deep, rural area, that I want to start my startup, at least like the parent would recognize what they're saying, right? I mean, back in 2000, like in our case, when I did mention that, you know, that, listen, we want to become an entrepreneur, right? I mean, with all due respect, my parents, it was very difficult for them to digest what they're saying. So at least there is an acceptance, right? Every single household, they understand what is startup all about, right? So you see that acceptance, right? When I go to villages, right? My ancestor village and talk about, okay, these are startup and, you know, the entrepreneurs. It seems very... It's happening, it's happening. I'm not talking about Patna or Indore for that matter, right? You go, even in deep, rural area, people are bubbling with random ideas which is a first or maybe like, you know, like your one stage prior to the day zero, right? Of becoming an entrepreneur. That's a separate thing that now, what are the right step for us, right? It's like, you know, that yes, we have activated a large mass, but now everyone who are bubbling with the ideas who are now aspiring to become an entrepreneur, do we have a right ecosystem to support them or not? That's a separate thing, but it's becoming mostly because they are hearing same thing, same vibe from different things, from all the channels. And at the same time, obviously they are seeing number of, you know, success stories. And more importantly, they are seeing the opportunities just next to where they are. Makes sense, yeah. You know, totally taking the feedback on the valuation. See, it's an investor's, I think, narrow-sightedness that leads to it. You need to say that when you start. Yeah, totally happy to learn. So I think we'll now slightly move towards closing this. I always equate this to how the Indian target team has changed. If you were to look at just, you know, a decade or two prior, it was all basically people from the operational lines of the society in the course of, or maybe the big cities. And now it's all a game of, you know, boys and girls from Bharat now, you know, representing India. I think something similar is also happening in entrepreneurship and will continue to happen. And I'm personally very glad.