 Greetings from the National Archives Flagship Building in Washington, D.C., which sits on the Ancestral lands of the Nacotchtank peoples. I'm David Ferriero, Archivist of the United States. It's my pleasure to welcome you to today's conversation with Kostya Kennedy about his new book, True, the Four Seasons of Jackie Robinson, which focuses on four transformative years in Robinson's athletic and public life. Joining Kennedy in conversation will be Raymond Doswell, Vice President of Curatorial Services for the Negro League's Baseball Museum. Before we begin, I'd like to tell you about two programs coming up soon on our YouTube channel. On Thursday, April 14th at 1 p.m., Michael Meyer will discuss the story of Benjamin Franklin's parting gift to the working class people of Boston and Philadelphia, a deathbed bequest of 2,000 pounds, to be lent out to tradesmen over the next two centuries to jumpstart their careers. And on Tuesday, April 19th at 1 p.m., Environmental Historian Adam Sowards will be with us to talk about his new book, Making America's Public Lands, which synthesizes public lands history from the beginning of the Republic to recent controversies. The featured document now on display in the National Archives Museum here in Washington is a letter written by Second Lieutenant Jack R. Robinson. We know him as Jackie Robinson, the first black man to play in Major League Baseball. But in 1944, he was in the Army and stationed at Camp Hood, Texas. Robinson wrote the letter to the War Department after a bus driver had ordered him to move to the back of the military shuttle, leading to a charge of insubordination. In years following this incident, as an athlete and as a businessman, Robinson continued to stand up for civil rights and human dignity. Next fall, a new exhibit in the National Archives Museum, All American, will focus on the power of sports to construct, celebrate, spread, expand, and promote American national identity. Letters from Jackie Robinson will be included in the exhibit, and I hope you'll be able to come and visit. Costa Kennedy's new biography of Jackie Robinson looks at four years in Robinson's life. 1946, 1949, 1956, and 1972. Kennedy's examination of these four years show us Robinson as a player, a father and husband, and a civil rights hero. Costa Kennedy is a former assistant managing editor and senior writer at Sports Illustrated. He's been a staff writer at Newsday and has written for the New York Times, Time in the New Yorker. He's the author of the award-winning 56 Joe DiMaggio and the Last Magic Number in sports, as well as Pete Rose, an American Dilemma. Both were New York Times best-sellers and each received the KC Award as best baseball book of its respective year. Raymond Doswell is vice president of curatorial services for the Negro League's Baseball Museum in Kansas City, Missouri. He joined the museum staff in 1995 as its first curator. Doswell travels extensively as a public speaker on topics of baseball and African-American history. Now as museum vice president, he manages exhibitions, archives, and educational programs. Now let's hear from Costa Kennedy and Raymond Doswell. Thank you for joining us today. And good afternoon and welcome to our program today. We're very excited to have you all here to be able to talk about baseball and history. I'm Raymond Doswell and greetings from the heart of America in Kansas City, Missouri. And we're very excited to be here with you all and with our very special guest, Mr. Kennedy. Before we begin, we want to remind you that you all can join the conversation as well. Using the chat feature, you can send in questions through to the National Archives. And later on in the program, we'll do our very best to include them to send to our guests and ask our guests about your questions or comments. But we're very excited to be here to talk about Jackie Robinson. It was a very historic year to be discussing Jackie Robinson. It was 75 years ago this week on April 15th that Robinson made his historic debut with the Brooklyn Dodgers, thereby integrating Major League Baseball in our modern era. But his journey began in Carroll, Georgia in January of 1919, where he was born. And his family moved from Georgia to Pasadena, California through the Great Migration, looking for a better life as many African-Americans were doing back then. But in between that time and his death in 1972, we get one of the most remarkable athletic and personal careers that we have seen. And I note that just in a quick search of the Library of Congress website, that there are over 500 listed volumes of material on Jackie Robinson. And if you go to Amazon.com, where most folks buy and purchase books, where I believe you'll be able to purchase this one as well, there are over 3,000 listings for Jackie Robinson in terms of just books. And that doesn't include films and other material. So we have one more offering with us today and that is from Costa Kennedy. And I'm very deeply impressed by one of the comments that are on the dust cover of the book. And it's from a great writer and a historian Gerald Early. He notes, and I quote, there has been so much written and said about Jackie Robinson. And one might think that there is nothing left to say. But Costa Kennedy is true to the Four Seasons of Jackie Robinson, not only offers an innovative approach to biographical writing, but fresh insights and information about Robinson. Even what we thought we knew is cast in a new context, an absolutely fascinating and compelling read, a truly masterful book. Costa, thank you for being here and congratulations. Great to be on. Thank you so much. Well, as I mentioned, 500 books at the Library of Congress and 2,000, 3,000 on Amazon.com. What do you think is unique about your approach to this story? Well, there's a lot of snowflakes too, right? No, I'm certainly familiar with a lot of that material. I do think that we've hit upon an approach which I hope is of appeal to people by focusing on four distinct periods of his life. Many of the books that you're citing are some are children's books or picture-driven books or sort of long biography, then there's some really good material out there. This is, you know, which I admire and have engaged with. But I think that by looking at four distinct slices in his life and also in the environment of America at the time and the environment of baseball at the time, we're given a way to look at him in an accessible, hopefully engaging and approachable way that is not necessarily as demanding as a full biography but still brings forward who he was and how he was. So as somebody who has engaged again with a lot of the Robinson material, I was my own sort of toughest critic or pile driver to make sure that it did feel different. And I think it did to me. I learned a lot in doing it and executing the book and I hope that that will be true for people when they read it as well. I agree and it's very consumable, if you will, as I've scanned a book and encountered it. And you did mention that the approach includes honing in on these four seasons as you call them or periods in his life. And as we learned, this is 46, 49, 56 and 72. And those who know Robinson's history know the significant of those years but there are, of course, there are other important periods. Why did you focus specifically on those four? Yeah, so, you know, the subtitle of the book is true and then the four seasons of Jackie Robinson. Those years are also sort of, they're literally the years they are and they're metaphorically the spring, summer, autumn and winter of his public and athletic life. And I felt that those were, so 1946 we sort of meet Jackie in Montreal. And while that's certainly known, of course, that he played for the Montreal Royals, which was the top minor league team just below the Brooklyn Dodgers, that had been as much explored in that year. And it was an absolutely crucial year for him. He was essentially the only African-American player in the league. There was for a short time another black teammate, but soon it was only Jackie. And for him to get used to that spotlight, for he and I should say Rachel Robinson, his wife who was with him every step of the way and it was essentially just the two of them in this environment. Far from home, as you mentioned, they'd grown up in California and Pasadena and Los Angeles and to get sort of familiar with the life of celebrity and also simply to get to be better at baseball. He was an extraordinary athlete and there was no question that he would succeed, but he was a little rough around the edges as a ball player itself. He'd throw it a long base or make some base running mistakes early on. He just didn't have that many games under his belt. So for him to experience as the player and as a figure to be walking through Montreal and have people stop him, to have people coming by his house to see where they live, to have these big full stadiums in Montreal of, you know, 10,000 people cheering for him, sometimes cheering against him on the road was all a critical part of him becoming the person that he was and growing into this role that he would have. So that was 46. In 1949, and this is something also which I think gets overlooked a little bit. In 1949, Jackie Rollins was the best baseball player alive and he was the best, the most famous athlete alive. And that's by those, by standards of that day and even if we go back and look at today sort of advanced baseball measuring sticks, Jackie was the best player. And I think sometimes because he meant so much more than baseball and meant so much to society, it can get overlooked of just what an extraordinary level of player he was. So that was 1949 and his best season, he did have several more years where he was absolutely elite and to see him sort of coming into his own, that was also a year when he decided he was no longer going to turn the other cheek, which is what he did in his earliest seasons in the Major League. He decided he was going to be aggressive when it was called for. He was going to respond when a response was needed and it really opened up his game. It made him a much more, as I say, aggressive ball player and complete ball player. Then when we see him in 1956, again a year which I feel gets overlooked a little bit because many people know that the Dodgers won the World Series in 1955. That was the big team triumph and of course very important for Robinson himself. But he personally had a very, he struggled a lot that year and the year after 1956, he had a lot of physical challenges that he was dealing with and he sort of willed himself back to having a really strong year, not at the level of his peak years, but a very productive year in which the Dodgers would not have reached the World Series, which they did, without his presence. And it was the sort of, as I began looking at the story, this show of valiance, he had this will about him. He was going to take his last stand. He was not going to go gently into retirement and he did. It's kind of moving when you see what he did. It's hard for any athlete could say to make yourself perform at that level and he did. And lastly, 1972, which was of course not a baseball season, but a critical year in Jackie's life. It was not only the year of his death in October at the way to young age of 53, but it was also a year where he was sort of repatriated into baseball. That's another thing that sometimes gets a little bit overlooked. From the time of his retirement until this year, he was essentially estranged from baseball. He had hoped to have a managerial job that did not happen. He never had a fun office job. He wasn't quite antagonistic towards the game and when he went into the Hall of Fame in 1962, he was very generous in his thanks and genuinely pleased to be there. But he was also critical of the sport for not advancing African-Americans in the managerial and fun office ranks. He had stopped going to old-timers games for various reasons. And in 1972, the beginning of that year, Gil Hodges, an old teammate of Jackie's and a very popular player, died, also very young. And at that funeral, Jackie met some of his old Dodger teammates we hadn't seen in a long time, notably Don Newcomb and some other players. And that began a little bit of a thaw between him and baseball. He came back to the Dodgers on field that year. Then he famously spoke at the World Series at the end of that season and shortly before that. So collectively, I felt they were, each year was very different and we got to see a very different Robinson and a very different time. The other thing I just wanted to say about the timeframe is in 1946, Martin Luther King is 17 years old and he had not given his sermon. He's still in school. He's not a public figure. By 1956, which is the third year and when Jackie retired, we're near Indiana of the Montgomery bus boycott. So it shows what those 10 years, the difference in American society and in the civil rights struggle and in viewpoints and perspective was so tremendous that it also allowed in a relatively short period of time quite a different view and perspective to have. Very well said. And I think you laid that out extremely well and why you chose those important watershed moments in his life. Want to remind folks we're here with Costa Kennedy and we will welcome your comments and questions too through the chat feature. So please, as we move along, please consider some questions for our guests. So quick trivia. You noted earlier about the other player that was with him in Montreal in 1946. That was Johnny Wright who was from New Orleans. So we want to recognize, right? And of course he played in 1945 here in Kansas City in the Negro Leaves in Kansas City Monarchs, are you correct? He was pretty raw as a baseball player having played a little in college although he did well but had that grueling season in 1945 with the Monarchs and he was still really learning the game as you noted even in that season and baseball as I often say and many other commentators say might have been his worst sport. He was so good at many other things like football and basketball and was very talented. I appreciate your listening in 1949 which was his most valuable player award season as well. The timeline really works well with the way you laid it out and taken a deep dive into these stories in this way. And you've had an opportunity as a sports writer. I don't know if you would describe yourself primarily as a sports writer since you've written for so many things but as a writer and someone's interested in the sport and you've written about so many topics what personally to you draws you to Jackie Browns? Well, it's a wonderful question. I think that in sort of a global writer sense the idea that Jackie was a protagonist in his life you don't need it you don't have to make him into a literary protagonist he was and that's very sort of useful and appealing. Personally, on a personal note when I was very young and beginning to fall in love with baseball I heard from my mother my mother's family had come from Central Europe in 1938 had fled the Nazis and my mother grew up in Queens and she told me the story of how they of course were not baseball fans coming from Europe and didn't have a history with it but she told me the story of how when I was very young of how the Dodgers had had Jackie Robinson and how no other team to let black players play and that they had all become Dodger fans and that stayed with me because I knew my grandmother didn't speak English that well so the idea of her being a Dodger fan would kind of tickled me so it stayed with me and I moved through my career and life and began to know more about Jackie the interest in him grew and then about eight or ten years ago I did a story for Sports Illustrated on Rachel Robinson Jackie's widow and that sort of moves it into the next level I really felt and believed that there was a lot of new things to be said that it was a deep story that I had interest in that I connected with and all those things sort of led me to the place where I am and I've kind of been gathering string on and making notes of for a while before sitting down to actually write it meaning in reporting on other books and things Jackie would come up and I'd sort of file away anecdotes and things like that so a long period of time that pointed to where we are a long journey indeed I'm very interested in learning just a little bit more about your family background I find that immigrant story very interesting tell us a little bit more about that well again my grandparents on my mother's side were Jewish and fled Austria won my grandfather from Vienna, my grandmother was from Prague and they literally the great story and family of the war they skied from Austria into Switzerland they were big skiers at the time of the annexing of Austria in March of 1938 came here and made a life in America along with many other people who were lucky enough to get out and yeah that's really the connection my mother grew up in Queens not far from Brooklyn also not far from the giants of the Yankees and they were big sports fans in that way but that really was what they recognized the appeal and I think there was a lot of appeal among the immigrant community and Jewish community in general baseball was so American and people wanted to be American you know the way to connect to be able to play baseball a little bit or talk about baseball so and that's something that I certainly in exploring in doing this book there was definitely a theme that came forth particularly in the late 40s the war is just over and in New York and in Brooklyn who did feel that so yeah that's the my father in British so he also didn't come with a baseball background I taught them all the baseball they got to know that's very good and I ask that because I know especially for that period of 46 in that part of your book I mean the war is so important to this story it's obviously a watershed moment in general but the background of the war World War II is so important to what is happening with integration in general as well as with them baseball how do you see how would you describe the perspective of World War II and its importance to Robinson's story it's a really good question and it's I certainly get sort of infuriated or emotional about it because on the one hand so African American blacks were serving in the war and fighting to preserve our freedom and when Jackie was signed for the Royals that was even mentioned by the Royals general manager if black and white men can serve their country together why can't they play baseball together and it was a big feeling of that and that opened up the door in some ways or opened up more acceptance the flip side of that is that a lot of people were threatened by this and there was an outbreak of a lot of violence against African American soldiers in particular who would come back and largely in the south but not exclusively was seen as a threat oh now they can be sold now they're going to take my job and there was some absolutely heartbreaking outbreaks of violence obviously had been going on for years and years but it was a pretty acute period of time Brian Stevenson the great scholar has written a little about this phenomenon after World War I and so I was aware that that was the case then but I hadn't really been aware of how acute it was after World War II so there was at one point I say in the book that the occasion of the war was not material to the appetite for progress it was material to the appetite for progress and it was also material to the resistance to progress it kind of cut both wings so the shadow of the war was really a big part of those early years when Jackie was coming in an excellent point and on all of that and I found that information surprising as well because I knew about World War I and just the reaction that people had but to see that it even continued through to World War II in that way is surprising or did you find what else did you find surprising in your research as you dug through different things was there something that jumped out at you that perhaps you really didn't know before well I mean it's sort of you know research like this is sort of filled with little treasures and you come upon especially if you've become familiar with the subject matter and you realize but there's still jewels to be found and so there was a lot of sort of smaller anecdotes there's a great story of this player Bob Aspermonte comes up to play with the Dodgers and he's just a kid he's barely 18 years old this is in 1956 and he goes out to play in Abbott's Field and there's Jackie Robinson there's also Pee-Reece and Gil Hodges they can't believe it he's in trouble and Jackie comes over and gives him his glove your glove is too big Jackie used a really small glove when he played in the middle of the field as most middle of the fielders do and he sort of gave that to Bob and got to keep the glove and that impact that he had on his life there were lots of little sort of intimate details you know Robinson had a company picnic when he was working a chop full of nuts and the way he behaved there he was he was a consensus builder in many ways I feel like it was sort of a journey of lots of of small discoveries that revealed sort of a new side or a new understanding of Robinson to me certainly that's excellent the journey of small discoveries I like that so again we're here with Costa Kennedy and we're talking about his book True to Four Seasons of Jackie Robinson we welcome your questions in the chat and we look forward to hearing from them so we can share them with our Arthur I wonder if you could share with us as you're finding that material what kinds of archival materials were available to you or people that you could talk to or had access to and creating your book so it's really you're looking for it whatever you can get so you're out there open eyes open I did get to speak with people particularly in old Montreal who were children at that time but remembered Jackie coming in could sort of remember the war environment you can imagine if you're ten years old or something and the war is ending even though Canada wasn't officially in the war they obviously were very much engaged and providing arms and many other services it's an acute time in people's lives so there were some really clear impressionable moments that people would remember that I'd sometimes go to verify through an old newspaper and find out they remembered it exactly right and then were able to take it a little further so I got to speak to some people some people of different ethnicity who were in Montreal at that time and certainly in Brooklyn to be able to go back and see and imagine what Brooklyn was like because in 1949 where else but Abbott's Field and this is somewhat rhetorical and it's somewhat an actual question where else but Abbott's Field were white men and women next to black men and women cheering the same thing whether it's Jackie Robinson or Campanella or Duke Snyder or P.B. Rees you're just cheering for your Dodgers you may be embracing you or that whole thing to come to life was very powerful so to be able to speak so actually on the ground in those places and in the other years that was a really crucial material old newspapers including French language where I had help in translation in Montreal but old newspapers through various sources was a big, big key and there were a lot of newspapers in those days so that gave a lot of opportunity for some of the later years I did have an early raw reporter notes from Sports Illustrated that was really for the later years because Sports Illustrated just began in 1954 but those were enormously helpful and provided some material I hadn't found anywhere else there was an FBI file on Jackie which had been obtained by Freedom of Information Act which I was able to get and look through let me pause there what about the FBI file what kinds of things did you find in it it was in those days any width of communist activity when Jackie was absolutely against communism he wasn't but because the communist movement was also very pro-integration there was some overlap there and so and Jackie also was outspoken he didn't necessarily agree with clearly didn't agree with everything the government was doing and all that so the fact that he had an FBI file wasn't as sort of alarming as it might feel today to have it because he was such a high profile figure such a high profile African-American figure there was there was that file and he had testified also at the House Committee for Un-American Activity and that would have landed him it's not person of interest but as somebody to be noted and documented by the FBI so it was simply just a way almost in some way to see Jackie and get a little color around him and hear his voice a little bit it wasn't as if there was some he was plotting some overthrow that nobody knew about well that's an important point but you're right because what a lot of people may know and you probably touch on in the book as well as many others have is the fact that in addition to progressive politicians who were pushing baseballs integration integration in general as a labor issue especially in New York City the communists left and particularly through the newspaper The Daily Worker and journalists Lester Rodney were also pushing that issue and I think some have described that they were kind of competing for that turf a little bit but ultimately their efforts and other efforts were successful because of what happened there and some might even say that someone like even general manager Branch Rickey with the Dodgers was trying to get ahead of all of that when he made to move to pursue Robinson from the Negro how does Branch Rickey come out in your book in terms of what you found and what you wrote about? I mean overall he comes out as somebody who was first of all an extremely smart person he was certainly I mean I think that he was certainly progressive and certainly didn't with pro integration I think he just thought it was asinine that the best baseball players couldn't play with the best baseball players right? I don't think he was overly noble but I think his heart was totally in the right place I think he saw an opportunity that there is great ball players I'm going to bring them in Jackie Robinson first and most prominent among them and then Roy Campanella and Don Newcomb and Gilliam and others and lo and behold it was the best 10 year stretch in Dodgers history so I think he thought of it sort of you mentioned in labor I think he had a view very much like that a practical view I'm going to expand my pool of available workers and get the very best and they're going to you know and Dodgers under Rickey and then against the Walter Malley they didn't pay people very well but they paid black and white ball players equally well there was no problem with that they were a little tight with their money but whoever you were but I do think the branch did believe you know he famously had a portrait of Abraham Lincoln in his office he was moved by people being discriminated against and I think that the fact that he had a noble cause and he made this decision in his minister's office he went and just sort of pieced around and said I'm going to do it sort of in the presence of God he was a methodist and was a religious person deep deep opposition the idea of integrating baseball was voted against 15 to 1 a couple years before Jackie came in branch Rickey being the one he said oh 15 to 1 against I'm going to do it anyway and he just went ahead and did it and just to jump back to one from a baseball standpoint branch Rickey somebody who developed the farm system as we know it today he used terms for any baseball fans out there we today have a term it's called wind above replacement it's this kind of technical term to measuring ball players he was talking about replacement level players in the 30 and he and the value of on base percentage very technical thing as well as broad minded things he was an absolute pioneer and genius on the baseball field with his integrating baseball and bringing Jackie Robinson clearly the most important thing that he did but not the only thing he had a broad resume of ways in the impact of the game in the culture around baseball indeed one of the great lines I think and portrayals of branch Ricky was in the film 42 with Chadwick Boseman and Harrison Ford when he is sitting around the table when Ricky played by Ford to sit around the table with his scouts going over potential candidates to integrate baseball and they get to Robinson and in that discussion he notes that Robinson said Robinson is a Methodist I'm a Methodist God's a Methodist so that was the event as that Robinson got in his choice so I think that's one of the funniest and great lines and speaking of movies we do have a question regarding film and although the scope of your work but I think you know enough to kind of comment now as movies as well as books are part of our understanding of Robinson and the telling of the story I wonder if you have thoughts on some of the film or television portrayals of Robinson particularly I mean well you write in 1949 I mean right after that season the Jackie Robinson story film is in production and it was 42 comes out a few years later I wonder if you have any comments about your thoughts on any of the films or television things that are done on Robinson Sure, well the two most prominent films let's leave it side documentary there's a wonderful Ken Burns documentary and there's a section in Ken Burns baseball about Jackie as well as the Sepadine those are wonderfully executed really strong documentaries the two most prominent films that you mentioned one of the Jackie Robinson story which for those who don't know came out of 1950 and Jackie played himself against the opposite of an actress named Ruby Dee he left a job he had in New York selling TVs everybody had an off-season job in those days if you play baseball have a biggest star you were that's what the economics were we had a movie out of our TV little repair shop and flew out to Hollywood to make a movie in which he starred himself and it's fascinating to watch I don't think you would say and it would put together very quickly that it's a great movie and things are a little bit oversimplified but it's basically accurate you know somebody like me or somebody who really knows the story would point out inaccuracy but overall the general spirit is certainly accurate and it's entertaining to watch 42 again a movie that takes some liberties with the way things actually happen for the value of cinematic presentation but I'm all for it why not I really enjoyed that movie I actually had an opportunity to interview Chad Bozeman at the time before just before the movie came out and wrote a review of the movie if it was illustrated and it was that was a wonderful conversation because I think Chad Bozeman was discovering Robinson himself during that process and it was really interesting to speak with him about it so you know I'll tell you I'm kind of a sucker for a baseball movie with all the music and the play-by-play I mean you've got me so I have no problem watching that movie or recommending 42 I think it's really enjoyable very good again we're with Costa Kennedy and we welcome your comments in the chat that you might have you all might be interested to note in relationship to film and television a bit of a plug if I would there's a new book that's also available that just came out from the Society of American Baseball Research called A Difficult Tale A Difficult Tale to Tell I think I'm saying that correctly which is essays about television film plays and other things related to Jackie Robinson if I could I do have an essay in there myself which is on the film The Soul of the Game which talks about Robinson's play in the Negro and what's significant about what I point out in that essay is that we get to see through Blair Underwood's portrayal of Jackie Robinson which had not been done at least on television or film before this and certainly not in the Jackie Robinson story was that you get to see Robinson for lack of a better word as the angry black in terms of of his nature as someone who was very competitive and who had a temper and I don't know if well I like for you to explain through some of your work how that that shows up and maybe some of these particular seasons of his life in what impact that had on things around him and people around him because that is a narrative that people don't know about a lot yeah so I think I quote a teammate a fellow Renfrow who was with the monarchs in 1945 who described Jackie as being quote up to his neck in every game and went on say and he had a quite a you know a collection of verbs adjectives that he was ready to unleash upon people he was full on talking about the baseball player just you know a very aggressive player really wanted to win and spoke his mind and that's what made it so remarkable when he did for what he and Brantrick believed was for the good of the cause really scaled that back the first couple of years in the major leagues and you did see it a lot more in 1949 as I mentioned earlier he was then I don't think Jackie in my understanding and seeing of him was gratuitous in his anger but I think that he was not going to take it you know you're not going to sit up how long are you going to sit up there in 1947 of 1948 he was hit by more pitchers than anybody in baseball I mean how long are you going to take that you know it's noble and it's probably the right thing to take it for some period of time but not forever and so in 49 when you see him decide to sort of take the gloves off as it were you not only see that side of him you see him become a better baseball player and just a fuller version of himself now he's able to really express himself in a way that he had meant to express himself and wanted to express himself on a baseball field and in general so I think that there's yeah there's a lot of truth to that and I think that we saw that document at the top for when Jackie was court-martialed in 1945 which you know for people who may or may not know essentially a very similar to Rosa Parks moment where he refused to leave his seat on a bus and with court-martialed because he wasn't just going to take he was in the right and he wasn't going to leave it and it turned out to be a bogus court-martial of course and with dismiss but he did have to go through that process one thing on all of this is I actually think Jackie was kind of a rural follower he didn't go outside the system he's not a player who ever held out for more money he's not a player who when he didn't give up his seat on that bus and this is different from Rosa Parks he knew that the rule was that you didn't have to on an army-based bus segregation was not allowed if it had been I'm not sure whether Jackie would have not happily but might have said okay that's the rule I'm going to do it and I'm going to fight the system within the system that's pretty much what he did in baseball and without he fought the system aggressively when it needed to be fought more collegially when he felt that was a way to do it the sort of described areas discussion and action I like that I like the way you describe that and that's that's a great perspective on him and he was one to fight back for things that he thought was right but within the confines of what was available and he was outspoken within those confines I think that's a very important point and that's a nature as I said the side of him that a lot of people are just now have discovered more recently as we learn more about him and his life and talking to fellow players from the Negro Leagues and beyond we get that perspective I know Jules Tygel in his book describes him as the most aggressive of men is one of the sayings that he says which brings me to and this may or may not be fair because I didn't send you ahead of time but I'll put it out there anyway because we have something like Robinson aggressive ball player very talented ball player and then you also have written about DiMaggio and Pete Rose you couldn't have three more different baseball players I wonder how you compare contrast if you would especially not as you dug deep until all their lives so I think it's a truly great question I think DiMaggio was the most sort of calm of all of them he was a little bit aloof in his public persona and the way he played was not aggressive but it doesn't mean that he wasn't I'm going to tell a really quick story of DiMaggio and this kind of tells you what everything one would need to know about him he was at Yankee Stadium in the 90s and with a good friend of his named Bert Sugar with an old young writer and I've met Bert he was a pretty quite a character even in his older age he probably had a cigar in his mouth and a hat on his head when he met him indeed and they show on the screen the famous Willie Mades catch that probably most people know of him making a catch over his shoulder he's running all get out his hat flies off his arms and elbows that's the way Willie played and they show it on there and so Willie was a great great center fielder and DiMaggio was a great great center fielder two of the best who ever lived and Bert said so tell me the truth Joe do you think you could have made that catch you would have made that catch that Willie Mades made he just kind of looked at him and said well I wouldn't have lost my hat and that's the way Joe DiMaggio played he just played on an even keel and he got there he got the job done and that was it he was somebody who held out for money when he wanted to he wanted to get hit to be very aware of his own self-worth if you look a little more analogous just in terms of aggressive play on the field is Rose and Robinson here's the big difference I think is that for Pete Rose the most important thing in his life was baseball and whatever one thinks about Pete Rose I'm not here to say whatever you want to think about him but the way he played baseball was with full commitment and full love and it was the most important thing he was doing that day and he had no extra agenda he had no extra didn't didn't seem like that was it to be the best baseball player he could to hang on as long as he could get one more game one more at bat he loved it and that's what he did Robinson also loved the game also competed similar to Rose in intelligence they're both intelligent baseball players who would take an extra base when they could who would waddle the opposition but Jackie from very early on and how could he not be was aware that he was part of a larger mission that what he was doing on a baseball field was part of something else and that influenced how he played it influenced his conduct in lots of different ways and in various manifestations of behavior but to me that's the big difference and while there's similarity if you just watched them in one game and they both sort of hustle in the similar way overall the broad scope of their career they're very different because of that major distinction I like you to expound on that a little bit more because I appreciate that comparison to Rose and I agree Robinson as I discovered in my own research was someone that when he came up the comparisons were to Ty Cobb and Cobb was equally as aggressive but the unique thing about Robinson as a ball player and the timing of that is that Cobb had been retired for like 40 years and there might have been some comparable players in terms of base dealing like Pete and I did research and some others but Robinson was bringing that Negro League style but also that aggressive style that no one had seen in maybe a few decades when he comes to play I've described him as a blunt instrument of athleticism in the way he played talk a little bit more about just you know in 1949 he was the best player of his abilities and his abilities as a ball player in particular yeah so he was and before even in his earlier years he was an extremely dynamic runner and dynamic ball player period so with the athletic ability that you alluded to he was very good at football, basketball track, he lettered in all four sports including baseball of course at UCLA a star in the football field although I think he was aware when he went into the army they wanted to play football on the team and he didn't want to do it he wanted to protect his knees and be a little careful of his body he was aware that it takes a toll but given the opportunity he could have competed at whatever the highest level was in any of those areas so ultimately he was really absolutely elite as a ball player we talked a little bit about he did have a little bit of growing to do early on as all ball players do and then he was that aggressive player that sort of the pluck and dancing particularly for stealing home dancing off third base and rattling the pitcher something that people had seen in those days that you're alluding to in the Negro League that you weren't seeing in the Major League at all and you could see the impact that he would have on defenses even if he didn't steal a base a pitcher losing concentration hitting a batter, throwing a ball you know whatever it might be he was able to impact the game and incidentally that was a big part of what Branch Rickey also saw and wanted in Jackie Robinson people talk about Josh Dixon who was of course a great great player in those days and could he have been the first every reason to think he could have hit extremely well and been a very successful player at the Major League level it was a different type of ball player for better or for worse when Jackie was on the field you knew Jackie was on the field he was moving, he was engaged he had his speed a player like Josh Gibson maybe he's going to hit 55 home runs he's not that type of player and that was part of something that Rickey again for better or for worse was looking for Frank Robinson also drew comparisons to Ty Cobb and Frank Robinson was Pete Rose's favorite player and he loved Frank Robinson he said hey the black Ty Cobb because Frank Robinson also played really tough he's known as more of a power hitter which he was but he was also a very strong base runner and just a great all-around player so there are similarities these guys don't come around a long that much, Jose Reyes had a little bit of that with the mess a few years ago, there are guys that come in who play with that kind of hard nose all around, it's being aggressive and also being at an elite level by athleticism and that's pretty hard to find indeed and that's why he ranks, Robinson ranks is probably one of the greatest athletes of the last century for what he's able to do we're getting close to the top of the hour so we're close to wrapping up I've got two more questions that I think if there are no questions in the chat and you alluded to this a little bit earlier especially talking about your family history and your family history specifically with Robinson and how you've led up to wanting to do this research on Robinson do you think your perspective of him changed from the time you started writing the book or doing the research to now that the project's finished in some way I mean I think and this is perhaps inevitable way that you know he became more human and that's not to say he was but in some ways the sort of veil of admiration is gone but the respect is even more he had his flaws he made mistakes he did some things he regretted all of that I feel like I was able to sort of understand him more at the full-fledged human being and I was able to sort of understand how much and again this ties back into choosing this manner of looking at him how much he evolved and changed and adapted his self while still being at the core Jackie Robinson still holding to his own standards holding to his own commitment and his belief but changing and I think that he could be funny sometimes which isn't something you necessarily hear about with Jackie he could be very intimate certainly with his wife Rachel and with his family he had really really good friends that he cared about a lot and so I think overall I just drew a deeper understanding of the layers of nuance to somebody who like any historical figure we may know in broad strokes but you begin to really get into nuance for their life a little more very good one last question for me before we wrap up to kind of summarize our discussion again with Costier Kennedy please look for his book True Season of Jackie Robinson wherever you buy books we encourage you to get the book and enjoy it yourself now we are 75 years on from his first appearance with the Dodgers this year in 2022 we're also 50 years after his death which will be this year as well what in your opinion should audiences take from how should we review Robinson as a figure in history today I would say in some ways he is known as he should be many many people know who Jackie Robinson is there's been a lot done about him they know they know the broad strokes of what he did I think to think about the time frame when we look back I think we touched on this earlier Dr. King later in his life said and this may have been sort of King could be generous in this way but I think there was a lot of truth to it he said he wouldn't have been able to get to where he was as quickly as he did without Jackie Robinson having done what he did and if you think of how early on I mean of course a struggle for civil rights has been going on basically since the 1600s so it's not that new but we think of the civil rights movement in the 20th century and think how early on that process Jackie came just what a pioneer he was and how much risk there was what there was at stake it could have not gone well with a different player with a different temperament let's not say he's the only one who could have done it the others who could have done it for sure but not everyone and the fact that he did what he did I don't think you can really overstate its importance and it's also important for people to remember especially younger people the venue that baseball was in those days and just there were there weren't as many sports to pay attention to the other really really big sports were boxing and horse racing and they weren't close to baseball but basketball, football, hockey were not in the public eye in this way so he was on perhaps the most visible stage doing something that hadn't been done and there's no way to underestimate the impact that I've had and the impact that's still having today and that's why it's being celebrated 75 years later and that's why all baseball players were wearing 42 because his legacy and what he did is extremely relevant today just as it has been every year for the past 75 years well said April 15th is the 75th anniversary of Jackie Robinson's debut with the Brooklyn Dodgers and as Costie just noted all Major League players will wear the number 42 in remembrance of Robinson it is Jackie Robinson Day across Major League Baseball hopefully you will go and catch a game in person or on television as it relates to this very very special anniversary we want to thank our guest Costie Kennedy for his time today we want to thank all of you all for watching and listening remind you of the great document that is now available or will be available at the National Archives in relationship to Lieutenant Robinson you can see original documents in history there hopefully you can make it to DC to see the documents as well as enjoy the many different programming that will come up to remind us of this great man and his great legacy again thank you Costie for your time today any final words you want to say? No I enjoyed it you had wonderful questions it's great to talk about this topic with someone like yourself and so knowledgeable and I really appreciate the time you took to present the questions and enjoy it very much thank you Ray and thank you for that and we want to also encourage you all to visit us here at the Negro League Baseball Museum in Kansas City, Missouri we are located in Kansas City at the Negro League www.nlbm.com I should point out too that soon we will have a launch of a new website called barrierbreakers.nlbm.com not available yet but it will be this Friday as part of Jackie Robinson Day you'll learn about Robinson and the other players who helped to integrate baseball once again thank you for joining us extra special thanks to the Archbishop of the United States and the National Archives for bringing us Costie Kennedy and True the Four Seasons of Jackie Robinson thank you and have a great day