 So, welcome everybody. I'm Cliff Lynch, the director of the Coalition for Networked Information. I'll be introducing this session today. You've reached the final session for the first day of the synchronous briefings for the 2021 spring virtual CNI member meeting, and it's great to have you here with us. Just to remind you that we will be having additional synchronous project briefings during various times for this week. And next week, we will do a couple of days of plenary sessions to close out the meeting. The meeting we're relying more heavily on pre recorded project briefings and I just want to remind you that as part of the meeting opening today we did release quite a number of pre recorded project briefings that are available on demand I think you'll find there's a rich assortment of material in there. So please look through that when you have the opportunity. This session is being recorded and the recording will be publicly available subsequent to the meeting. A couple of mechanical things we have got a chat window and please feel free to use that to make comments introduce yourself etc. There is also a Q&A tool at the bottom of your screen. During the presentation, if questions occur to you, please feel free to put those in the Q&A tool, and we will address all the questions at the end after we've been through the presentations. It's also possible during the Q&A to raise your hand and we can turn on your microphone so that you can ask questions by voice if it's a more involved question and you prefer to do that. And I think that's all the mechanical sorts of things I need to say. We have quite a panel today and Heather Steins who is going to be kind of running the panel will introduce everybody in a moment. I just want to first off thank Heather and all of the panelists for putting this session together it's really interesting and a very timely topic. It's a whole issue of social learning, and how that can contribute to things like close reading has become extremely intriguing topic that's opened up in the last year or two. The last hypothesis meeting that happened in person that I was able to attend there, which I guess was 2019. And has gotten so strange since the pandemic. There were a series of fascinating presentations where we had a number of faculty who taught literary analysis writing and things like that, talking about how class annotation is an incredibly powerful tool for enhancing student learning and engagement and you know I guess I sort of see what we're going to hear about today as perhaps the next logical step at taking that to a much broader scale so I'm really delighted that Heather and her colleagues can join us Heather will introduce all the rest of the folks on the panel. And at this point I'll just say thank you for joining us my thanks again to the panelists and I'll shut up go away and turn it over to Heather. Thanks so much Cliff I'm really excited to be here today this is my first CNI meeting. So thanks to Cliff for inviting us to do the project briefing and to Diane for helping us with the behind the scenes logistics. As was mentioned previously we're using a zoom webinar format so I don't believe you guys can see each other, but the secret is the chat box is open to everyone so if you'd like to introduce yourself. Let me explain a little bit about why this session was attractive to you what your interests are in social learning. That way, you can see what others have, have found of interest here, and no, you know really who's out there in the ether. So, the questions at the end. So, first, we're going to hear from Dan whaley. Dan is the founder and CEO for hypothesis where I used to work. Oh I should say I'm Heather stains and I'm currently a independent consultant I've remiss if I didn't say that. Thanks for my hypothesis. Dan is a coder and entrepreneur. He created the first online travel reservation company on the web called get there in 1995. He wrote much of the software launch the business and guided the long term technical and product vision. Get there went public in 1999 and was sold to saber in 2000 with nearly 600 employees, while processing approximately 50% of travel transacted online. Dan currently serves as a director of sauce labs the leading open source functional testing company and get around a peer to peer car sharing company. He's a shuttle worth fellow. After Dan, we will hear from Hugh McGuire. Hugh McGuire is the CEO. He's a co founder of the of the rebus foundation. He's been building tools and communities to bring books into the open web since about 2005. He's a co editor of Libra box.org, which is free public domain audio books made by volunteers from around the world, and press books, which is an open source book publishing platform should go to the next slide with the names on it. There we go. Built on WordPress, along with Brian O'Leary, Hugh is a co editor of the book called book, a futurist manifesto essays from the leading edge of publishing. I'm sure there's lots of folks to be interested in that. Next up will be Rami Khalir. Rami is an assistant professor of learning design and technology at the University of Colorado Denver School of Education and Human Development. He researches how social annotation facilitates collaborative open and equitable learning during the 2020 2021 academic year. Rami is serving as hypothesis is inaugural scholar in residence and is helping to lead a new research initiative related to social annotation and student learning. He is also the lead author of a forthcoming book called annotation, a volume in the MIT Press essential knowledge series. He is the founder and facilitator of marginal syllabus that I hope some of you are aware of already a research practice partnership that sparks and sustains conversation about educational equity through social annotation. Here and his PhD in curriculum and instruction from the University of Wisconsin at Madison. And finally, rounding out our panel today will be Mark Graham. Mark Graham's created and managed innovative online and products and services since 1984. As director of the way back machine at the Internet archive. Mark is responsible for capturing preserving and helping people discover and use more than one billion new web catchers each week. That's billion with a B. Mark was most recently senior vice president with NBC News where he managed several business units including Garvin garden web and string wire. He was senior vice president of technology with I village and early Internet company that focused on women and community, and he co founded rojo networks one of the first large scale feed aggregators and personalized blog readers. Mark's early training experience with computer mediated communications was acquired when he served in the US Air Force spending more than three years working at the Air Force data services center at the Pentagon. Mark's first nonprofit work includes volunteering with the open educational library, we are commons.org, and he's a board member also of open recovery SF dot org. And with that, I will hand it over to Dan to kick us off. Thanks Heather. Hey everybody. Nice to see you all here. And thanks. Thanks for coming. Give you a little bit of background on on what we're thinking about and then let Remy and Hugh and Mark dive a little bit into kind of how they see the context and and role from of this from their different perspectives in scholarship and publishing and archiving. Also, I wanted to say that this, we're going to be talking about an initiative here. The primary feedback is to, you know, give you a little bit of information about this but most importantly, to solicit your feedback and your input about how you see this what you think, what do you think about it, what maybe we should consider what we might be missing, who else we should be reaching out to and, and how this may relate to to your work in libraries and so forth. So the context of this is that this is this ultimately came from a problem that we were seeing at hypothesis and with other platforms kind of like ourselves. And that we're trying to bring interactivity to the classroom experience and doing that in most of the time, and a LMS authenticated way inside inside platforms and the goal to in order to, you know, keep students engaged make better use of the classroom time, leverage peer learning as where students help each other. And that this bringing this activity to these platforms requires connection to the material. And, you know, in the text that make up that material next slide. And so the problem though is that because we're sitting inside this LMS authenticated experience, most of the time, sometimes things like our hypothesis are used outside the LMS, there are plenty of instructors out there who, you know, prefer not to use the LMS. Which is just fine with us. You can, you know, also use annotation in a way that's that's outside that that framework, but you know at least well over 90% of the folks that are using this are using it kind of within that context and as it becomes more popular. In fact, that percentage will probably increase because the folks that tend to be outside tend to be the early adopters and, you know, whereas the folks that are inside tend to be, you know, a little bit more of the mainstream adopters. But right now are tools like ours can use on texts that are inside the LMS or, you know, or stored as as PDFs, Google Drive, box, etc. or in just on the open web, you know, an HTML web pages, etc. But when it comes to texts that are stored inside external platforms. Then on reading platforms that are apps themselves like vital source and so forth, or inside authenticated experiences where they might be IP range limited or in some way need to be logged into that system to be able to gain access to those texts. Then the third party tool can't and that authenticated classroom experience, you know, inside the LMS can't be brought over that third party tool that third party experience or that that remote context platform. And so the downside for instructors and teachers and so forth is that that experience that they're having over texts, like PDFs that are stored inside canvas, can't be brought over the platforms that are that are external to the system. And so what happens most of the time is that the teachers just simply take that third party content downloaded as PDF and re uploaded into canvas, which is a problem for the couple where number one it's just kind of a poor user experience it's a lot of friction it's an extra step, but also a lot of it's a violation of whatever kind of license requirement that they might have with that third party agreement. Now generally speaking, and this is a widespread practice that's going on already teachers are downloading texts and uploading them into into these systems and I think generally folks either are going to be, you know, fair use or they can look the other way. But as this practice of social learning appear learning becomes more mainstream, and this becomes more of something particularly if, if annotation or these kind of things are required as part of the then and the option to use the, the print or the other text is not an option because the interactive experience over the digital text is required, then having something that is integrated with all the platforms that the text might be on becomes more and more important. So we asked ourselves how, how could we solve for this problem, not just for ourselves but for other third party applications like ourselves. Next slide. Just, you know, kind of from our perspective, the you know the landscape of platforms that are out there kind of falls into these categories there's the LMS itself. The aggregators that goes in the pro quest and so forth. Oh we are materials, the, the, the actual publishers archives like J store and Internet archives and so forth. The digital distributors textbook distributors in particular like vital source and red shelf. The local PDFs that might be stored in a drive or a box instance. The open web, of course, as Brian is suggesting, having annotating content on the open web which is a major use case. And then other kinds of scholarly materials like print prints and journals, self publishing like use folks are using press books to to publish their own materials and then e readers like cobo and Amazon. And most of these represent except for the LMS themselves and for maybe the local PDF, or the website category are materials often which are opaque to the third party tools that like hypothesis that are being used. Next slide. And so what we wondered is, could we bring a coalition of platforms together to work to address the identify what the obstacles are to more seamless integration of content with with interaction. Find ways to eliminate does obstacles, potentially in some in some instances natively integrate great the third party technologies but at a minimum, not to obstruct them by in terms of the way that the content is is is offered or rendered, or, you know, sometimes it's not even selectable with your cursor and there's all kinds of kind of inherent limitations. So today, would that coalition work in the open. In terms of collaborating to solve these things. Next slide. So we have begun to have a wide range of conversations with many of these platforms, Heather's been helping us drive that that experience drive drive those conversations. They've gone, I think fairly well. And the, the main ask that we've, you know, kind of established the context and the landscape here, the main ask that we've had of them is, you know, would you join this, this coalition. If you kind of agree with the vision, would you work to figure out what this would mean in your own platforms work and prioritize the effort to remove some of the obstacles that are, that are there collaborate with others and you know be public about that. So the work of the coalition would be focused on a set of technical recommendations for coalition members or others to to achieve this kind of interoperability narrative produce initial demonstrations of this what it looks like. And then see if the recommendations can be incorporated. So that's necessary into other standards frameworks like LDI and so forth. So that's, that's the basic background. And do I don't know how we want to run this there. We have these basic questions these are the ones I kind of suggested at the beginning, you know, what do you think about this, what should we be thinking about here. I don't see any benefits to this, you know, kind of in your own worlds, what are the issues that you see and who else should we be talking to. We can either. I think it's best if we hold the questions to the end because I think the speakers are all going to, you know, kind of play off each other and you can go ahead and put a question if you have it now into the Q&A, we can all see that. Or you can hang on to the end and raise your hand and you will be unmuted. And then hand over to Hugh. Hello, and I'm still, I have to update that picture I used to find it strange that people with gray hair and their beards showed pictures from many years ago and now I'm doing that just to have an update of this and how many years but anyway I am Hugh, very happy to be here specifically with Hypothesis, which I think has been doing so much cool stuff through the web, a long time, and as well as the Internet archive which has kind of inspired a lot of my journey in the universe thinking about universal access to all human knowledge. Next slide, Heather. So quickly what is press books. We are a open source bookmaking platform that's how we started with the idea that press books could help different models of publishing emerge. And we've been adopted largely in the EDU universe we work with about 150 educational institutions around North America mainly. And this is used to create, adapt and share educational material, largely OER so open education resources. We have a new thing that I'll talk about a little bit here in the context of social learning which is the directory which allows you to search and use a lot of these books that are public within the press books ecosystem. And what we are mainly known for is our offering an editing platform that allows you to offer adapt content. This is full toolbox of features and one of those parts of that full toolbox is native integration with Hypothesis out of the box. Next slide. So a little bit about the directory, it's a new thing we've just rolled out and I thought in the context of social education it was important to take not just is that annotation layer but the idea of what do we do with text. And the directory, press books have been around for a while but the directory is the first time where we've made it easy to surface and find text that have been created on the press book platform that if you've got access to practice books you can pull into your application if they're openly licensed and make adaptations yourself. And this is trying to solve this question of how do we find good OER from other institutions, what are some good quality OER, how do we extend the reach of great stuff and how can we get started with existing OER to build upon. Next slide. I think there's this growing community of OER practitioners. And I think again it's interesting to think about OER in the context of being a great tool to start building these ideas on where it's a lot easier to work with content that's in the open and educational content that's in the open for the challenges that Dan outlined at the beginning. And we work with hypothesis but for instance this question we have our own LTI integration tool in VLMS, but it doesn't play with hypothesis. How do you say that hypothesis is LTI integration so how do we who are operating in this space were probably a good starting place to start building some of these tools. But how do we collaborate not just on on content but how do we start thinking about the infrastructure for this content to flow properly and these kind of interactions to flow properly. Next slide. Yeah, and I think what's interesting about this new directory is that it's this always updated index of good quality OER textbooks built on an open source platform where we can start thinking about how to, you know, as it becomes exposed to more places how do we think about items as really social objects that are part of the web that can be built on and used in different ways. And again, what's that infrastructure layer that higher ed needs to be thinking about beyond just the closed platforms that we know are there and how we build on this infrastructure. Next slide please, Heather. Yeah, for us this directory was an easy way to help get more of this content out there so that it's more exposed makes it easier for people to find the stuff that they might want to be adapting. And this brings up issues about metadata about making sure that the stuff people is producing are producing is findable. And I think back to when we're thinking about metadata conversations I had with John Udall, many probably multiple years ago but talking about if we have multiple versions of the same text living in the web, or slightly adapted versions, and you have annotation layer from hypothesis on one of those texts, how is it reflected across to another version of that text somewhere else. Hard problem, super interesting and excited about a universe that's evolving that wants to solve that problem more. Next slide please, Heather. Yeah, and I think again just going back to broadening the idea of what we mean by social education for us. OER is interesting with because you can build on text as they are so there's a social part which is the annotation layer but there's also the modification and the changing existing text which is a big part of why people like press books directory making that easier, but that starts introducing again a complicated question about how you're, if you want to be annotating and seeing this in in across the web for different versions of the same text what does that look like. And next slide. I'm going back to the directory again. So we index all these press book networks that are sort of independent publishing entities at the different higher institutions. We're just now indexing all those together. And then pulling all the metadata that's collected into one single place and you can search and sort using a variety of faceted searches. And next slide, Heather. There are some of the examples and there's a link if you want to play around with the directory and see what's there. We could do a quick check to see how many of them have hypothesis enabled. And we're still in early days so this is a not quite a first cut, but we are evolving this platform and it's exciting to see. So that's the first time to have a clear review on what's being produced and how much activity there is that next slide. And that's it. So, thank you all. Thanks you and we will be adding this presentation to sketch and also as soon as I'm not screen sharing, I will make sure that a link of it gets put into the chat. And we will hear from Rami. Well, again, it's a pleasure to connect with everyone. Thank you so much for joining our session. As is mentioned in our introductions. My name is Rami clear and this year I'm serving as a scholar and residents at hypothesis and so with my commentary today. I want to help define social learning and really position social annotation as a use case, through which we can understand the various qualities of social learning and make an argument for why this matters for educators and for students. And so we'll use of course hypothesis as an example and I've put together a pretty simple slide here but I want to unpack it in detail, which is that social annotation of course builds upon annotation as an everyday literacy practice. And so we see across disciplines and certainly across institutional types, as well as grade levels, the ways in which students with their teachers, with a variety of course content, engage with these texts as discursive texts for social learning. And so the question then becomes what does that look like and what does that look like in practice, what does the research show us about this type of learning. When Dan was introducing his comments a few moments ago, he actually mentioned some friction that both educators and students may encounter particularly as learners perhaps move into something like a learning management system. And some of the even kind of like pedagogical work around that educators need to creatively employ to make perhaps their content more available to students. And of course, reducing that kind of friction and creating a kind of more seamless and interoperable experience is of course very important for educators and for students. And again, looking at the social annotation literature, we can see why creating these types of seamless social learning experiences matter. Another one because disciplinary engagement and really deep disciplinary engagement is possible through social annotation, and this can happen in a variety of ways, one with more experts sharing their knowledge, their terminology their key concepts with groups of learners, and a lot has been gleaned from again the research literature about the ways in which learners benefit from reading expert annotation. And again, we see that both in the natural sciences as well as in the humanities and the social sciences. But a lot of disciplinary engagement also arises through peer to peer learning and again the social aspects of students raising questions with their peers, having those questions answered and moving into more again type of deep reading and interpretive practices that even Clifford mentioned at the beginning of his introduction today. We also know that as students engage with texts through annotation and engagements types of social participatory practices, they construct a new knowledge. And there's some very exciting research, including some that hypothesis is helping to lead right now. So looking at the ways in which knowledge construction activities, including elaboration interpretation disagreement conflict, as well as consensus building are all possible through this type again of learning experience, and again, reducing students friction around their engagement with peers and texts and their educators is going to again more beneficially contribute to the ways in which knowledge is constructed in these types of classroom experiences. So annotation is of course a form of collaborative dialogue and it's important to understand that there is of course, someone might call a genre of online learning associated with things like the discussion form, and then ways in which the so called dreaded through the discussion is a kind of staple particularly in higher education, and notably social annotation is working really to kind of break free from that model and showcase a different way in which digital discourse and collaborative occurs in context and again turning texts into discursive context or multiple people can take more nuanced views of sharing their knowledge and expertise with one another, and that leads to a fourth and important affordance of social annotation which is of course shared meaning making. And of course we want particularly in educational contexts, learners to make meaning of what they are reading again across disciplines and social annotation is a key way to enable that type of shared meaning making informal educational contexts. I want to keep my comments brief today, only because I hope that this elicits conversation with this entire panel, as well as everyone attending the webinar about the ways in which we can understand social annotation as a venue for exploring the full potential of social learning. The last thing I'll just mention very briefly is at the bottom of this slide there is a link to a public curated bibliography of scholarship specific to social annotation and more particular the technology of hypothesis which is the most researched social annotation technology ever created and I think that that speaks volumes to both the technical capabilities of the hypothesis tool, as well as of course the leadership, you know, by the organization as down with speaking to a few months ago, really leading the charge to create the kinds of open and interoperable learning technologies that create these types of virtual learning experiences. Thanks so much Rami and I believe this may be our last slide. Yes, so I will happily get out of the present mode. One second. And hand it over to Mark and then after Mark is finished we'll open the floor for discussion. Take it away Mark. Thank you very much and I'm just going to drop. There we go. Some URLs into the to the chat over there so I, first of all, I'm happy to share that the Internet Archive is the latest member, I think maybe of this coalition for social learning engagement as of the end of last week. And, and also I think I was the last person at this panel so I don't have any slides but a few comments I'm going to keep them brief. First of all, the Internet Archive has been involved for a long time in helping to open up access to learning materials in general. We do this in a variety of ways we have a project called turn all references blue. The goal basically is to acknowledge that everything that any human has ever been ever created in written or radio audio format. It should be accessible to people, which means that it should be digitized and available via the net. And any references to those materials that may exist in other formats say Wikipedia article, or web page or a book should have within that a link to the actual source. So the turn all references blue project has been working with Wikipedia sites now we have software running on more than 70 language Wikipedia sites to add links to references to books. We've added about 800,000 links to books in the last few months to to web sites web pages that have gone bad and returned to 404 we've fixed fixed about 14 million of them. And now with the with the launch last week of scholar dot archive that word, which is a platform for open publications academic publications, we're going to be accelerating our effort to add links to academic papers as well. The idea of turn all references blue and implies that the references self is accessible, which maybe is obvious but in many cases it isn't I see Mark Miller asked the question about, you know, making the resources of libraries available. Generally speaking in the first step there is that the materials within the libraries need to be accessible they need to be an additional format. At that end we have a project called control digital lending to extend the role of the library the digital age, the basic concept is that if that if a library owns a physical copy of a book that it can lend out digital versions of that book one at a time equal to the number of paper copies that the library owns with control digital lending. I have a link in in the chat here. Actually it's a recent link for a myth busting session that we did about control digital lending, because of some of you probably know the Internet archives being sued by the major publishers about this now. I also just want to know I'm, I'm in the offices right now of ISK me isk at me.org and they run OER Commons. OER Commons is a leading platform for directory for open educational resources. And I'm an advisor to that project. The, it has currently cataloged hundreds of thousands of education resources is more than 10 years old. And as a leading player in the space of making educational resources available in a variety of different formats. And now the end that the I also put a link up to work we did around the Mueller report that's probably the closest that we've did around annotation in full disclosure the Internet archive is not yet adopted an annotation platform in the classic sense like apophysis we do. However, support many annotation activities. One example was acknowledging when the Mueller report first came out, there were more than 2000 footnotes in it, but only about 14 of them were links. And so we, we, we had a project to identify the resources that were referenced in the Mueller report through these footnotes. In some cases, get the version of them that wasn't online make it available online, and then work with Digital Public Library of America to produce an updated EPUB version of the Mueller report with more than 700 active web links in it. So we take a very holistic view to information access in general and to, to annotation in the sense that things that should be linked are linked and things that should be accessible arm and accessible through those links. Thank you. Thanks so much, Mark and remember if you would like to ask your question. You can either put it in the q amp a or you can raise your hand and someone will unmute you. I've got a couple of questions. I always do. Dan I know one of the things that you've mentioned as as really being key to this discussion that you'd like the coalition to undertake are the role of interoperability and standards could you tell us just a little bit more about that side of this. I think the, you know, the key, the key problem that we have now is that the kind of experience that a teacher or student might have in one place is not equivalent to the experience that they can have in the other place. Just at the most basic level there might be one kind of annotation experience here and then the platform has its own, but they can't take notes in both and have them searchable or have the same discussion, you know, in the in the class in one place as they can in the other. So the first thing that we're trying to do is see, you know, what would it take to create a framework for that kind of interoperability. But the, the underlying technology that might be brought might be based on standards. You know with open API is and so forth so that the high quality kinds of experiences and that the data itself is not locked away and proprietary format. Thank you for that. I want to ask Rami now you were using social annotation long before many people were forced off campus and into the virtual classroom exclusively. I would imagine it might have been a little bit more straightforward at least in one aspect for attempt to move those discussions entirely online. Can you talk a little bit about the strategies that you found effective for social learning, so that you know others might kind of learn a little bit from that. Absolutely. And apologies for the little one maybe screaming in the background right now as we all work from home, most of us at least. You know, I think that we can look at this from the perspective of both, you know, a teacher and also a student, you know, a lot of educators now are talking about two topics when it comes to social annotation. One is how educators seed SEED, their expertise into texts, identifying again key terminology, the ways in which researchers describe their methods, asking questions of students to then elicit their responses and there's been a lot of discussion recently, some anecdotal sun now appearing in the scholarly record about the ways in which instructors are making these kind of moves within the text again as the discursive context. And I think also that a lot of educators are currently, you know, experimenting with particularly given the shift to fully online learning, again, pretty much across higher education during the pandemic has been what we may call orchestration to use the kind of technical learning sciences jargon. How do social annotation activities sequence with a line to and then perhaps complement other kinds of classroom activities is social annotation a pre reading activity that then precedes a lecture with a faculty member is social annotation done to review course materials is it done as a peer review activity among students and how do these social annotation activities that dovetail to and also extend other kinds of course specific activities and there's a lot to be learned there again that kind of richens and kind of deepens the kind of overall peer to peer learning experiences within either on the ground, or certainly online classrooms. And then you know how they're, you know, briefly to the point then of what do students do and how do they approach this, you know, I'm increasingly speaking with educators who mentioned the importance of students having a lot of agency and ownership in the margins, and that these kind of marginal discursive spaces are an important place for students to make their thinking visible, share rough draft thinking, illicit feedback from their peers to clarify misconceptions, and that there's an importance to opening up these margins as a kind of space for exploratory again kind of first draft thinking through often difficult course content and so having the kinds of interoperable experiences again the Dan others have spoken to now to make that just easier for students from a technical perspective will be so important as they then move across multiple classes, multiple years of their scholarly journey, and then can take those notes and can kind of collect take that record of collective intelligence with them over time. Thanks so much and Dan has included in the chat again, some of the questions that he had on his slide so we'd love to get your reaction from the audience whether that is as a written reaction or whether you'd like to actually speak with us to some of those questions in the chat box. Anybody want to take a crack at it. I just want to put a plug in for the value of open standards and the importance of it vis vis of a long term sustainability. I think what we all recognize that individual companies and projects and priorities. And sometimes go away completely. And there's been many examples of that actually even in the annotation world we remember that YouTube had a very robust annotation system, which they took took down the eliminated it. And there's many other examples that I could list here but but the point is if if annotation systems and these you know metadata data data about about data is accessible, both in a standard format as well as through some sort of an open space access method, then the probability that those systems are going to be replicated, they're going to be widely adopted and be archived and archives in a way that they can then be we use a different context is increased. And so, certainly, it makes my job here at the Internet archive easier to the degree that these materials are available in open standards. And, and that's something that it's almost any system that we would adopt and use within the Internet archive. It would be a requirement for us actually that that baby standards base. So we, we welcome the, you know, the leadership with hypothesis particular in this and I just just put a plug in to say I've been going to, to the hypothesis, you know, face to face conference is for many, many years now. And even though we've never formally have not yet formally adopted the hypothesis platform and certainly influenced some of our priorities and thinking at the Internet archive to have the benefit of the sharing within that community, which itself is an expression of openness, I think, the spirit in which those conferences have been held over the years. Yeah, I think that I annotate is coming up in June. Save the date has has gone out. I have a question for Hugh. Hugh has his camera off so I'm hoping that he's actually still there. There he is. Yeah, so, so I'm really interested in open, open educational resources and given that marks sitting in the, in the home of, you know, our Commons. I think it's, it's even more valuable. And, and just to highlight the point that social learning is not just students social learning is across instructors who work in the same discipline or who work in an interdisciplinary manner and having different versions of OER texts connect to each other and be discoverable and shareable. Can you talk a bit about how that contributes to social learning amongst the, the faculty set. I think I can talk about as well from my context, so I'm the CEO at press books also executive director at the readers foundation which does a lot of work helping groups of OER authors work together. So, I think for me what's interesting again is just zooming out there is the annotation layer in the way that that encourages socialness but what we've seen in press books land and rebus land is that power of people working together from different places on creating content or adapting it and pulling apart and building it in new kinds of ways and I see that to me is such an exciting part of the future of educational content is the way we can start thinking about content is something that is not just a final monolith and output but something that can be chewed up and rearranged and moved around and I think that annotation is a big part of that kind of that social aspect but the idea that what we see a lot of is people taking a piece of content from the press books ecosystem and then rebuilding it adding a new set of we also integrate in addition with a hypothesis with H5P which allows people to take something and build in new interactive content quizzes, etc. And I just think that that I'm going to go back to what Mark said about the open standards is that very exciting I mean it's we've, I think most of us have been in this for a long time. Long thinking about ecosystem for information where it just is more fluid and flowable. But what's really exciting is that notion or what's really important is that open standards make that possible in a way and platforms that that think about information is not something that is captured just in one place in one system but can flow out and be built upon and and and changed in different ways and so that was a very rambly answer but I think the idea that open standards should allow us to think about how we can take pieces of information and build different things with them to me is just, I mean it's driven a lot of the work that I've done and it's exciting to see where hypothesis going, but I like getting into the actual bricks of the content itself and how can that be pulled apart and rebuild and that's an inherently social activity because you're taking something from somewhere else to rebuild it. I couldn't agree with you more Hugh and you know that's really the space that's been the most interesting to me in recent years and if you're, you know, here today on the session. There's definitely ways that you could participate in you live increasingly in a distributed information environment and I firmly believe that the, you know, the future involves not only open open standards but open knowledge graphs where publishers and librarians and researchers will be able to curate resources and annotate them with assertions so for it's going to be so important for trust and transparency and provenance as we move into really a more complex system. Dan if folks are interested in joining the coalition what's the best way for them to reach out. They should ping either myself or you and just just drop an email and say hey and we'd love to tell you more about it and and this is not only for for publishers but also for institutions who are interested in how to ensure these kind of experiences across the content that they're licensing and connecting to on behalf of their students and faculty. And what if you're not super technical is there a role for you to play. I mean, the old goal of this is to make, you know, great experiences for people, regardless whether they're technical or not so. For sure, I think the what we will be care most about is hearing what people need. And, you know, that it's not not about whether they have a technical perspective or not. Fantastic well I want to thank our speakers collectively I was amazing tour through the world of social learning and all of the places that are touched by that. And we'll hand back over to Diane to close us off. I guess we're going to be able to stick around and continue to chat but to close off the recorded version of the session. Okay, thank you thanks Heather. Thanks to all of our panelists that was really interesting, fascinating tour as Heather said, I just dropped Dan's email in the chat. And it looks like other folks are sharing their emails as well so please reach out if you're interested in getting more information about this project or joining the coalition. Let's see, let's see Heather I see your email address but I think, did you mean to chat that out. Now I'm going to chat it out everyone. Okay, cool. Thanks. All right, so yeah, I think we're going to go ahead and close down the recording of this session again big thanks to our panelists and thank you so much to our attendees. If you'd like to hang around and have a chat with the panelists. Please feel free to to hang in there with us after we turn off the recording. Raise your hand we can unmute you and you can approach the podium and ask your questions or make your comments and thanks so much for spending time with us here today I hope to see you back at CNI in the weeks to come take care. Thank you.