 In life in the law, an update on the Hawaii Supreme Court. Wow, I'm Jay Fidel. This is Think Tech and the handsome young man is Chief Justice Mark Recton-Wald of Hawaii Supreme Court. Welcome to the show. Thanks, Jay. And thanks to Think Tech for having me today. Aloha. Absolutely. We have so many things to talk about. I'm sure we won't get through them all. We live in difficult times. We're gonna talk about some of that today. I just wanna point out that although people may not remember a couple of decades ago, you were with the Department of Justice. I'm not gonna ask you your feelings about the current investigation, what's going on in Murilago and search warrants and affidavits and special masters. I'm not gonna ask you about that. I just wanna remind people that you had a sterling career here in Hawaii in the District of Hawaii as an assistant US attorney. And now it's decades later, and but that was formative for you, wasn't it? You know, the US attorney's office here in Hawaii has just wonderful lawyers. It's a very important institution in our community. We've had great US attorneys leading the office over the years. And right now we have a really good one in Claire Connors. And so, you know, I think it's a very important part of our community and we're very lucky to have dedicated professionals with a great deal of experience and expertise in that very important position. Yeah, there's so many national, you know, and in the past I never thought that national news, national legal news reached out and touched Hawaii in the same way as it does now, but it certainly does. You know, and people say everyone says, or at least everyone I know says our national democracy is, you know, is in trouble. It's a sign of threat. And then also, you know, our environment is a big issue. The tool of journalism at UH says it's the most important story of our lifetimes, climate change. And I know that you care about both of those things. I wanted to just ask you your, you know, general reaction to how our national democracy is working and how our environmental initiatives are working, especially in view of the provisions of the inflation reduction act just a few days ago. Well, you know, with regard to democracy, I think the sort of foundation of the judiciary here and across the country is public understanding, trust and confidence in what we do. So that has always been sort of a cornerstone of our efforts here is to find ways to reach out to and engage with the public. So they, to demystify what we do, to let people understand that what we do has integrity, that, you know, everyone gets a fair shake. They have their voice heard. You may not agree with the decision, but it's a process that's fair and has integrity. And so, you know, we've really doubled down on our efforts to try to engage, to try to share information about how our courts work and how our democracy works. We've done that a couple of different ways. One is through something called the PACE Commission, which was established by our court early last year and is chaired by Chief Judge Lisa Genosa from the Intermediate Court of Appeals. And it's really developed an ambitious agenda to engage with schools, engage with communities, to try to give people opportunities to learn about the nuts and bolts of democracy, not just the courts. And so that's a very, very important initiative. And for us at the Supreme Court, we've taken our court out into the community to hold oral argument at high schools across the state. That's something we've done for about 10 years now. We did it back in Farrington in 2012. And we go out and hold real oral arguments in real cases. So the lawyers come before us in an actual case. And what we do is when we go to a particular community, we ask the lawyers from that community to work with the students to teach them about the case that's gonna be heard that day. So they know what the issues are, they know what the role of the lawyers are and the justices. And they sometimes have opportunities to actually do practice arguments themselves before they hear the court in action. And that's something we've done now at a number of different schools across the state. I think we've had 5,500 students who have participated in these different arguments. Sometimes we'll have 500 students. We had to pause it during the pandemic, but we're planning on going back to La Jaina Luna this fall in December. We're really excited to coming back to an in-person format and excited to be able to go visit Maui again. This will be our third time on Maui since we started the program. So civic education, I think all the more important than ever in these times, issues around the environment. We have been a leader in developing sort of institutional capability for dealing with complex environmental issues. And the legislature back around 2014 or 2015 created a statewide environmental court here in Hawaii, which is a relatively unique institution in our country. Vermont has a statewide environmental court. We have one. There are other institutions sort of like it in different parts of the country, but really our two are the only statewide, the statewide environmental courts that exist. And that has been, I think, an experiment that has been very successful. The sort of the linchpin of that is the idea that we want judges to have specialized training and expertise when they have these complex cases coming before them so that they're prepared to handle the issues that are coming up. And those issues can range from really, complex environmental impact statement and land use issues in our circuit courts to in the district courts, issues around the use of resources. What it means to take a female lobster out of season in a particular area, what's the impact on the environment of doing that, which is not something that, you know, typically would come to the attention of a district court judge, but we try to train and explain and have our judges understand the complexity of these issues so they can do a more effective, fair, and prompt job of resolving these very important disputes. So those are two areas we've done a lot of work in, Jay. Yeah, I know you have. And I think that's great and it distinguishes us. It distinguishes the judiciary too. And on behalf of everyone, I want to thank you for addressing both of those points. Now, just a couple of weeks ago, you had a special session for C.J. Ron Moon, who I knew pretty well back when, back before he was a judge even. And he was a great lawyer, a great litigator and a great judge. And you went to have a special session. What did he mean to the judiciary, C.J.? What did he mean to the state? What did he mean to the legal culture in Hawaii? Well, I think he really sort of shaped us into the modern institution we are today in many ways. So look at the administrative side first. Institutions like our drug court, our girls' court, our mental health treatment court, these were I think very effective initiatives that sort of target resources. And again, target, bring a team approach to handling some of the most difficult cases that we face. Folks who are repeatedly violating the law because they're addicted to substances. How do we break that cycle? And that the idea of having these treatment courts was something that started under C.J. Moon. He was a strong supporter of, so that was just one example of where he used his sort of leadership, his ability to work with the legislature to create coalitions and support of the work we were doing to really make our system work better for the people it's supposed to serve and serve the public more effectively. He was, you know, as the court itself, many landmark decisions during his tenure from Bayer versus Lewin that recognized a constitutional right to same-sex marriage to the Kalima case that recognized the interests or rights of folks who are beneficiaries of the Hawaiian Homes Trust to address breaches of the trust. And all kinds of major environmental cases involving the super ferry and other really profound issues that the court handled during his tenure. So in terms of the legal landscape, he had a huge impact in terms of the work that we do to help people, he had a huge impact. And I think again, I think the culture of somebody who was extremely professional had very high standards, but was also a very warm and gracious person who made people feel that they belong. You know, he came from very humble roots in Oahua. You know, I think his family had a store out there and he never forgot those roots. I think that's one of the things that really distinguishes him. He truly cared about and wanted us to serve the needs of people who came into our courts, who may not speak English as a first language or who may never have dealt with the court before and may have been apprehensive and unsure of what was gonna happen, that we would work with those people to make them feel welcome, respected, and to give them a fair shake when they came into our courts. So I think those are all parts of his legacy. I mean, really in terms of his personal legacy, to me and many other judges, he was a mentor and a friend. And, you know, we'll miss him terribly as an institution. I miss him terribly personally as well. It was really a hard summer for me to lose this person. I really just, you know, idolized, frankly. And his sense of humor too. He was hysterical and, you know, that's a really important part of, you know, he'd always start an event with a joke and, you know, always appropriate, always in the right time, you know, but you knew when you were needed to be serious and when you could lighten things up a bit. But I think, again, it was just part of his, you know, effort to make people feel welcome and sort of relax and be able to say what they had to say in a setting or feel comfortable in a setting and sort of demystify, you know, the black robe that, and he spoke out about not wanting judges to think too highly of themselves as people, although always having respect for the institution. And so he kind of modeled that through his own, how he interacted with folks. Yeah, you know, it's a hard road to become a judge and, you know, a lot of people are, you know, when we say that it changes them, it changes them vis-a-vis their old friends, their partners, their peers, their colleagues, their associates, and the natural drift is to drift away from your formal life. But he didn't do that. He was always friendly, he was always warm. He managed to, you know, find the connection and not drift away as you. I mean, you know, you're the same kind of guy and you maintain your connections with people. You're always friendly to everybody and you come on, think tech away, which is a really big point. I'm glad that I have the opportunity to come, Jay. And, you know, again, I think think tech is a really important part of our community as well. I mean, the work that you do and the voices that you allow to be heard, it's a really important role you play, so thank you. Thank you. You know, so this raises the question of, you know, your administration. I don't want to ask you a tough question, CJ. How is your administration, which is going to end by age in some three years or so from now? I'm sorry to, I'm sorry. You know, I hope they changed the law between now and then, frankly. But, you know, how does your administration differ or is similar to his? Well, you know, I built on the work, I think, or, you know, the folks that I work with or that I'm privileged to be part of the team with, built on the start that CJ got us in Access to Justice. So the Access to Justice Commission was created when he was still Chief Justice. It's really the body that sort of provides focus to our efforts to help people who are coming into the civil legal system without an attorney. And there are literally thousands of those people every year. You know, they're small claims cases, they're landlord tenant cases, they're collections actions and there are literally thousands of family court cases where people just can't afford a lawyer and they're coming in and they really have no alternative, excuse me, but to represent themselves. Now, you know, we can try and we have done a great job, I think of getting more funding for our legal services providers for legal aid and other institutions who do provide representation for folks who can't afford it. But for those people who, you know, aren't able to be served by legal aid, we've tried really hard to our commission to have volunteer access to justice rooms and self-help centers where lawyers can come volunteer their time for maybe, you know, half an hour with each person, 15 minutes just to orient them to the system, answer some basic questions. So when they go into court, they have some idea of what's going to happen and what they need to present. So that's been a partnership that sort of the signature achievement of our Access to Justice Commission, we've probably helped, started in Kauai'i background, I think 2011, we've helped more than I think 30,000 people statewide at these centers. And so really try to build on the great start that CJ Moon gave us by creating the commission and try to really push Hawaii forward. And, you know, the most, they do a national ranking of different states and how they function on access to justice. They look at things like language access, disability access, access to services for folks who aren't represented. The most recent one of those, we came in sixth between California and New York. And this isn't adjusted for like the resources we have. This is just based on the quality of the services that we provide. So I think we've, you know, because we have people who care, because we have people who are willing to volunteer and just work their hearts out to try to make sure that we actually provide justice for all in a way that's fair and respectful, we've been able to achieve amazing things. So that's, I think the thing that I really look at and think is, you know, something that I feel is really important that the judiciary has been able to accomplish while I've been here. Yeah, you know, really it does, in many ways to me, it defines your administration access to justice. It's not just one thing, it's hundreds of things you've done over the past few years and you've been on it the whole time. And let me add that, you know, we talk about public confidence. And after all, we know that public confidence is the firmest pillar of good government and public confidence in the judiciary is so critically important. And I read this morning by one of your press releases that Angela Min, the Judiciary Chief Innovations Officer, which is really kind of an extraordinary thing to have in the first place, to have somebody who is the Chief Innovations Officer. And she's terrific, by the way, she's perfect for that. So now she has established a small claims online, dispute resolution pilot in the third circuit and we'll soon duplicate that in the fifth circuit. And it's a way in order to learn by COVID, I suppose, to learn by, you know, remote, remote connection and make justice that way for small claims. This is really a fabulous idea. Why didn't we think of this, you know, before COVID actually? Well, actually, this one was, you know, this one was actually in the works pre-COVID. So this was something we had looked at, thought about, and really it's the idea, again, in this one category of cases, small claims cases where frankly, folks are representing themselves. Can we make it easier for them to engage with the courts? And the idea is really to have a system where they could sort of engage, sort of from, you know, be able to file the case, get things started, engage with the other party, get the process rolling completely online. And I think that's, you know, really, you know, Jay, I mean, there are cases that should be done in person that have to be done in person, but then there's a whole category of cases that frankly, you know, if you're gonna require people to take off from work, drive to the courthouse, find parking and spend, you know, get childcare and spend an entire day of vacation just to get in front of the court, you know, to then come back again two months later and maybe again, two months after that, they're just not gonna participate. And so we had sort of identified that as an area where we needed to look at and become, you know, more sort of, you know, more responsive to the sort of expectations of the public in an era where there is frankly, online dispute resolution all over the place, you know, if you're unhappy with Amazon, if you're unhappy with a transaction on eBay, you know, you engage in an online dispute resolution process. So the idea was to begin step, you know, getting our toes into the water and the process, this pilot project has been very successful. It's been in the first and second circuit now for about a year. So we're just now rolling it out in the third circuit and I'm really excited about it. But the thing, one thing I will mention, Jay, you know, we were thinking about this, we had it in the works, but then COVID hit and as you pointed out, you know, then something remarkable happened, which is we had to pivot from basically being an in-person institution, you know, an institution that people came in, that we see them face to face, cases were adjudicated in a brick and mortar courthouse to having to do our proceedings remotely. And, you know, really we had great leaders who stepped up, we moved to Zoom just like everyone else and Webex and we have, you know, at the height of the pandemic, we had about 20,000 hearings a month that were being heard by Zoom. And we really, you know, as we go forward, we're sort of trying to figure out how to incorporate that into who we are and really it's already happened. And so we have rules that just went into effect that sort of identify which hearings are gonna be presumptively on Zoom, which are gonna be presumptively in-person. You know, there are jury trials in criminal cases, they should, they have to be in-person, I think. And there's a right to confrontation. I think you want the jury in the courtroom seeing the witnesses in-person, but, you know, traffic infractions, you know, frankly, you know, why do we wanna make somebody come in, you know, and again, take a day off, drive in, park and spend a morning to contest a citation that might be $125, they're just not gonna do it. So, you know, you have to pick the right kind of cases, you have to understand that some people don't have the technology and adjust for that fact, but, you know, the revolution that we were trying to instigate when we sort of started thinking about ODR, I happened and it's, you know, it's already, it sort of happened all around us for the last two and a half years and it's really changed how we operate as an institution. And I think, again, I think it makes us more accessible and that's a positive development. Yeah, let me offer the thought that this really falls in a similar category as your discussion of having Supreme Court argument and appearances, you know, on the neighbor islands, because, you know, there's always the risk in Hawaii that the neighbor islands drift away, that they're not treated as important, as important as Oahu is. And I think it's also a point of your administration also defines your administration to allow access to justice and, you know, move the courts out to the neighbor islands. And this along with, you know, having hearings and the like on the neighbor islands and letting those kids see what it's like to be in a courtroom, that's remarkable and wonderful. And this also is the online dispute resolution, it's in the same vein, it's the same concept, isn't it? Well, frankly, you know, think about the big island. I mean, there are people there who are, you know, certainly an hour or maybe hour 15 away from the courthouses, you know, if you live in Naalehu and you're trying to drive to Hilo or to our courthouse in Kona, it's a long, long drive. And so, and then on Maui, you have people who are on Moloka'i and Lanai when our circuit courthouse is in Wailuku. So, you know, there really are real challenges for people to get to court in those areas, you know, not that we don't have them here on Oahu, but again, I think the idea of using remote technology to make us ourselves more accessible to people who otherwise just might not be able to participate might choose not to participate, they might just default. I mean, so that's, you know, that's the sort of what a denial of access to justice is when someone just says, you know what, I'm just not going to show up. I think I have a case. I feel like, you know, I'm right or I have something to say to the judge, but I just can't afford to take off and go down there. You know, so I think it's made us, it's made us more accessible. And, you know, I, we have great people on the neighbor islands, really strong circuits, you know, in, on the Big Island and Maui and Kauai, really smart dedicated judges and staff and they do a fantastic job and they really did a great job during the pandemic. So I agree, Jay. I think we need to support their efforts. Generally speaking, you know, there are areas where the, the, the neighbor islands lack in resources. And, you know, one area that we're focusing on now is this new legislative session comes up our, you know, the options that might exist for treatment or alternatives, you know, for, for example, women offenders who are coming into the criminal justice system. And I think it's a really interesting issue. There was a lot of really good work done this past session to establish, for example, here in the first circuit, a women's court pilot project, which is much the same as I described before, the sort of treatment court model where women who are coming into the criminal justice system, they come in for different reasons. The vast majority have been subject to some kind of trauma early in their life. And that, you know, that then you go down the road and there are substance abuse issues, mental health issues that you need to address if you want that person to be able to move forward in a positive way. That's the idea of this women's treatment court. Judge Mark Browning and his team really put together a great proposal. The legislature funded it. We're very, very grateful to both the judiciary and finance and ways and mean chairs for supporting it. We're gonna stand it up with Judge Trish Morkawa as a presiding judge. And we hope to have an underway by early next year. And we think we're gonna get some really good results. And I'm hopeful that we can find initiatives for the neighbor islands. Because one of the things we really need, Jay, is tools that judges have where rather than incarcerate somebody who's not a threat to, you know, we're not talking now about people who are dangerous in the sense of potential for violence. We're talking about folks who may have substance abuse issues, they're violating the law, they need to be held accountable. But how are we gonna do that? And can we do that in a way, for example, if they're women who have kids, can we find a way to put them on a positive path without incarcerating them and then having their children go into the child welfare system or be raised by somebody who might not be a great parent for them. And that then creates another generation of folks who are coming into our system and that's what we don't want. So that was a real emphasis of the legislature this year to look for alternatives, to give our judges more options and to give women who are coming out of the correctional system more options. And I think more of that could happen on the neighbor islands and that's something we're certainly looking at. Think of a ride if I said that we are in a judicial inflection point these days, it's not only because of COVID, it's just changing times and it's the innovations you're talking about, these very things. Create an inflection point for the judiciary and of course the judiciary is sort of the backbone of government in the sense that that's the part that people have contact with. That's the part they engage with like it or not. Do you see it that way? Well, I think it's critical. You know, we all want public safety. We all wanna make sure that our community is safe. Judges live in this community. We want the same thing that everyone wants which is a community where we feel safe and we feel that our families are safe. The question is how do you get there? And you need to look at the data and understand where the risks are and how you can achieve the best possible outcome. So the idea of doing treatment courts has been shown over time to be an effective way of getting people off the path of using drugs. I mean, if you go to a drug court graduation, you know, you'll hear people talk about, you know, turn to their loved ones who come to the, they're in this program for say two years to three years. It's very intense supervision. They have a treatment team of the judge, a probation officer, maybe treatment professionals, prosecutor, public defender who are watching, planning, monitoring what they're doing, what progress they're making and when they step back and fall back. And they move to a point where they're ready to graduate from the program. We have a ceremony to honor them and recognize their achievement. And I've been to these ceremonies. They'll turn to members of their family and they'll say, you know, I'm sorry for what I did. I'm sorry for how I hurt you. I know I've done things that I can't forgive and that it are very hard to forgive but I am now going to, I'm now on a path where I'm gonna be able to live a clean and sober life. And I, you know, I hope you'll be there with me to make sure that I stay on that path. I mean, that's what we want. We want to get to the point where folks are able to break out of the addictions or the mental illness that sort of caused them to come into the system and they can find a new path ahead. That doesn't mean they're not going to be held accountable. They have to be held accountable for their actions but you have to look at what achieves the best results. How do we use the resources we have to get us to the place where we keep ourselves the safest? And that's really a conversation that's been going on now probably for about 10 years. Interestingly, it's a conversation where folks from very different political perspectives are able to find some common ground. This happened nationally and it's happened, I think it happens here as well. And again, something like the Women's Court Pilot Project I think has tremendous potential to hopefully move us forward to just a different approach to women's corrections here in Hawaii. And I'll just say one thing, Jay, there's a group called the Women's Prison Project which sort of sprung up organically. Amazing group of women really accomplished women from a variety of different walks of life which engaged at the legislature last session and was instrumental working with the Women's Legislative Caucus to make a lot of these bills move forward. And they're gonna be with us, I think, to stay. And I think we welcome their participation because again, how can we envision doing this better in a way that's gonna keep people safe, use the resources we have in the best way possible but hopefully be able to ensure that women who have kids are gonna be able to raise their kids and those without having them go again into the child welfare system or be raised by someone who's not gonna care about them or take care of them. And then we have kids who are, again, they're gonna have significant issues down the road. How can we avoid that sort of compounding of the effect of the trauma that these women have undergone? It's certainly the enlightened view seems to me and of course it has to be judgmental in the sense that this is the judiciary we're talking about, but in a funny way. It's not judgmental, it's part of the social safety net. It reaches beyond classical criminal justice and good for you that you think that way that you're into that kind of enlightenment. At the same time, however, you're a CEO. You have to go out and select district court judges. You have to handle and encourage all your various employees and professionals around you. You recently appointed Annalisa Bernard to the district court of the Second Circuit and you encouraged Brandon Kimura to apply to the Institute for Court Management in the National Center for State Courts. This in itself could be a full-time job and you oversee the fiscal plan, the infrastructure of the judiciary. Recently, you did some work on the upgraded, the Maui, the Wailuku Courthouse. I suppose you're taking a part-time course at the University and the School of Architecture. Is that right, CJ? So you've got all these things on your plate in addition to hearing cases and writing opinions and I'm thinking about public policy. My goodness gracious, how do you do all that? Well, I got great people around me. I mean, the one thing I've tried to do is get really people who care deeply about our community who are motivated by public service and bring them in here and empower them and turn them loose, try to develop a broad vision for them to work towards, encourage and support them and let them achieve all that they can achieve if they're empowered. So that's really been what I've tried to do. I have a very unique responsibility under our constitution, Jay, which is I select our district court and family court judges. The governor selects our circuit court, which are criminal trial courts and civil trial courts where they're jury trials and our appellate court judges. But for the district court where folks go for traffic cases, small claims, landlord, tenant disputes, family court, we're literally everything from divorce to child welfare to juvenile cases. I have the incredible responsibility to pick those judges. That's something I take really seriously. I try to make sure that we have people who are passionate about public service, who know what they're doing, who are experienced, who have great temperament and who see the bigger picture of wanting to make us a better institution and impact the community in a positive way. So, and we have a great group of judges. You know, we have, I think one thing that has sort of has happened, which I think is amazing is we're now, we're basically 50, 50 women and men among our full-time judges. So I think that speaks a lot about the type of institution we are. We're a place where there's opportunity where we try to reflect our community. We can do, for sure we can do better and for sure there are communities where we'd like to see more representation from, but we're working on it. We've made a conscious effort to try to reach out to and show people, this is the path. If you wanna become a judge, this is how you get there. And I think it's really reflected in the folks we've had. It's an incredibly strong group of people. They really care. And that's something I think really is just a very, very important thing to know about us as an institution. So, and you know, Brandon is a great example of someone who I think, you know, again, you get great people, you give them the opportunities to develop themselves professionally and then you let them do their work and support them and they'll do great things for you. And Brandon's a great example of that. He's a wonderful leader. And what about the school of architecture? We get, you know, we get great architects to come in and design buildings that are functional, but we try to, without breaking the bank try to make them attractive. And, you know, I think we've done that. You know, we build a new courthouse in Kona while I was Chief Justice. It's really is a very, it's a functional building. I think we are now up to, I think we're elite silver. We might be lead gold. So we're very energy efficient and that's something that folks over there have been waiting 30 years for. So, you know, it's, again, we try to identify opportunities to ensure that the physical plant, you know, provides a safe and functional environment for people to come and have their cases adjudicated. You know, a great example, Jay, is if you're on, if you're on a Peacoy, there's a very, you know, where the old Alder Street detention facility used to be. There is now a high rise, high rise housing that's affordable housing in essence. And on that property has been built out a facility for juveniles who are, who need a place to stay that's not, it's 24 seven, but it's not locked up and secure. And that's gonna be on that property and there's gonna be programming for juveniles who are coming into our justice system where we can have them come in after school, we can monitor them, we can work to try to make sure they're going on a better path. And we did that in consultation with the Hawaii Housing Development Authority who basically funded the project and the legislature with the legislature support and Scott Psyche was instrumental in that, but we had the land. So that partnership, really a unique partnership I think is gonna play out in a way that's very, very beneficial to the community. So when folks drive up Peacoy, take a look at that building on the right, that's I think government working the way it should be. And Rod Miley, who's our administrative director was instrumental in working with Speaker Psyche and other folks from HHFDC to make that a reality. Wow, looking back down the course of your administration, you've done so many things and I've always seen you in a continue increasingly to see you as a vuncular, as kind as a protector of our state, taking us to new places and protecting against the risks and dangers of modern life. So I wanna thank you, thank you for coming on Think Tech and thank you for all the things you're doing and I hope we can do this again. Because I think it's really important that you speak to the people. Well, I really appreciate it, Jay. And like I said, you know, their voices that, I'm not sure they would be heard as effectively or as often in our community of Think Tech wasn't there to provide them with the forum. I'm very grateful to you and your team for doing that and appreciate the opportunity to be with you today. Thank you. CJ Mark Recton-Wald of the Hawaii Supreme Court, Aloha. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.