 Hello, good evening members, officers and any members of the public in the public gallery of viewing the livestream. Welcome to this meeting of the Scrutine Overview Committee. In the absence of our regular chair, Graham Cone, Councillor Stephen Drew will be chairing the meeting as Vice-Chair, however I've been informed that he's been held up in traffic and will be 10 minutes late. To make sure that everything is in order, the first action that we should take is, I would like to propose that I'm officially appointed as Vice-Chair for the meeting. For five minutes until Councillor Drew appears, I'm told that he should arrive at 20 to 6. Thank you. Who would like to propose that? Councillor Williams and Councillor Bratton in the second bullet. Thank you very much. Okay. Good evening everyone. Thank you very much. First of all, just allow me to apologise for my late arrival. Unfortunately, I planned very carefully for my journey home after my day, and unfortunately my traffic plans were scuppered immensely. I appreciate everyone in the Chamber agreeing to a German amateur leg. So thank you very much and my apologies once again. So to formally start. So good afternoon members, officers and any members of the public in the public gallery or viewing the livestream. Welcome to this meeting at the Scooting Overview Committee. My name is Councillor Stephen Drew and I am chairing this meeting because Councillor Grant has sent his apologies. I don't ask councillor Adam Leaming. It's to my right to act as Vice-Chair for the meeting. I'm told that members in my absence have said they are happy for this to take place. Excellent. Thank you very much. I will introduce other attendees when I invite them to speak. Those in the Chamber are reminded that the meeting is being live streamed. By your presence here in the Chamber and by a video conference, you are deemed to have consented to being filmed and to the use of images and sound recordings for a webcast and archive recording. The normal procedure at Scooting Overview Committee's meetings is to review and make recommendations to Cabinet by affirmation. Only those members of the committee present in the Chamber will be able to move and second motions or affirm. However, members present virtually may speak in the debate. My ask those who are joining us remotely to ensure that their camera and microphone remain off unless they are addressing the committee. For those of us present in the room, please could you ensure your microphone is close to you and speak clearly when addressing the room. Finally, a report of this meeting will be presented to Cabinet at its meeting on the 25th of June. Since neither myself nor councillor Leaming are able to attend the meeting, is there any other committee member able to go along please and present the report? I will avoid looking immediately in the direction of the use of volunteers just in case, so I will start on the right and scan around. Councillor Bradlin, is that a hand you have put up? I'm happy pending checking with my diary. Fantastic. As ever, councillor Bradlin, thank you very much on behalf of all of us on the committee for being the volunteer. As I say, I did start by looking at the right just in case someone else fancied this opportunity. Thank you very much, councillor Bradlin, it is yours. Chair, on this occasion, I might not be able to do it, so maybe somebody else would like to volunteer. That's okay. I shall say in the meeting, even in advance, obviously our normal go-to other person is councillor Stovart, but unfortunately councillor Stovart is not present. We will, as ever at this point, work towards finding a volunteer who is able to do this for us. I see that Ian is carefully noting down the absence of a volunteer at this point, and we shall move on. Thank you very much, everyone. So, item one on our agenda today is Apologies, Ian. Are there any apologies for absence, please? Quite a few. Apologies from councillor Cohn, councillor Fhane, councillor Ripoth and councillor Stovart, and two apologies from Cabinet Members, councillor Henry Ventula and councillor Macdonald. Great. Thank you very much. Item number two on our agenda is Apologies, Ian. I'm imagining a noise, my apologies. Do any Members have interest to declare in relation to any item of business on the agenda? You may not see any hands raised online, and I see no hands raised in the chamber. Oh, I do see a hand raised now. Councillor Heather Worm. I just want to check in the Greater King's Cardship as referenced, and I'm number 27. Indeed so, so let us record. Councillor Henry, in relationship with the Greater King's Cardship's Assembly. I do not see any others. Thank you very much. If any interest subject becomes a power in the meeting, please do raise it at that point. I know that occasionally items come up as we are moving through, and they perhaps go in directions that we're not entirely expecting, and obviously that gives us an opportunity to raise those issues. So, I will move on to item three of the agenda, the minutes of the previous meeting. Do any Members have any suggested amendments relating to the accuracy minutes of meeting held on 21st of March 2024? Is it good to me? Sorry? They look good to me. They look good to you. My apologies, Councillor Bradlam. I was looking at Councillor Heather Williams at that point and was informing that she was abstaining, and then you started speaking as well. So, I will take it from Councillor Heather Williams saying she was abstaining due to absence, I assume, and yourself, Councillor Bradlam, saying that they were good to you, and nobody else passing any comments. I will propose that we take those minutes. So, therefore, I move approval of those minutes as a true and accurate reflection as amended. If we could affirm that, that would be good. Agree. Thank you very much, everyone. So, the committee therefore agrees to the approval of the minutes of the meeting of the 21st of March 2024 as a true and accurate record by affirmation, which moves us on to item number four on the agenda of public questions. On this occasion, we have one public question. Mr Daniel Foulton, would you like to ask your question now, please, sir? Thank you very much, Chair. It is a pleasure to be here today. The proper operation of a democratic society relies upon the free exchange of information and ideas between the public and their elected representatives. In the United Kingdom, there is very little scope for the lawful restriction of political speech by public authorities. In no circumstances will public authorities' restrictions on freedom of political speech be justified except where the restriction is made pursuant of a legitimate aim and where the restriction is objectively necessary in a democratic society. Will the chair of the committee support the creation of a working group of the committee to propose a new public speaking policy for the council? And does the chair of the committee agree that it would be beneficial for the council to seek the participation of local civil society groups when developing this new policy? Thank you. Thank you, Mr Foulton, for your question. So clearly this is an important issue that you raise and in advance of the meeting and in receipt of your question, we have made sure that a conversation has taken place and obviously on behalf of Councillor Cohn as the chair, I will answer this question. Thank you for your question about the public speaking protocol and the possible creation of a scrutiny working committee to review it. Upon discussion in relation to this, it is my view that actually this is not a matter for the scrutiny and overview committee but is a more appropriate matter for my fellow members on the Civic Affairs subcommittee. Therefore, I'm recommending that scrutiny passes this question for consideration to the Civic Affairs Committee for it to deal with at the next Civic Affairs Committee meeting and that they will then provide a response on behalf of the Civic Affairs Committee. So that is my response to the question immediately. Thank you very much and I will look forward to this issue being raised at that committee in due course. Excellent. Thank you very much, Mr Foulton and thank you for your question and your public participation. So, we move on to question, what's question five? Agender item five. Agender item five relates to the cost of living support update. So, members and public have had the report in advance of the meeting and as we will always do at this point, we will open up for members to ask questions. In the first instance, we will direct the questions towards Councillor Bridget Smith as the leader of the council and Councillor Smith will as always be the direct towards a fellow cabinet member or one of the officers of the council for an answer to be provided. As I always do, when we get to the end of the answer being provided, I will go back to the questioner and I will check that you are happy with the answer that's being given. You will have the opportunity at that point if you wish to ask some kind of supplementary or to slightly reword or to check some point before we move on to the next person. Councillor Leaming and her role as temporary vice-chair of the committee has her pencil poised to write down her first name in this role. So, I will look out and I will see if anyone would like to ask the first question towards Councillor Smith on relation to the cost of living support update. Excellent. Councillor Sally-Anne Hart, you can begin. Thank you, chair. And I'd like to thank officers for the report. It's revealed an awful lot of things that have been happening in terms of addressing the cost of living crisis. I was particularly interested in the comment in paragraph 6, the road shows that have been taking part in the cost of living talks. And it says that officers have been working to improve the uptake of grants. I mean, I think that information that we can get out to the public is so important. And I notice that there are plans to repeat this later in the year. I was just wondering, have we seen any increase in the uptake of grants? Have we got any information on that already? Thank you, chair. Chair, with your permission, since we've got Councillor Bill Hanley here, probably for his last scrutiny meeting as a Cabinet Member, I'd like questions to be directed to him on this item. But if I could just take this opportunity, one of many to thank Bill for the extraordinary leadership that he's shown while he's been Cabinet Member for the last five years. And we've thrown all the really difficult stuff at him. We threw COVID at him to deal with. We threw the cost of living crisis. We threw, not our Ukrainian guests aren't a difficult problem, but they were something that needed a very immediate response. It's never complained. He's just like a sponge absorbed at all and got on with it all with good cheer. I think he's been, I trust that officers have found him a pleasure to work with. Not quite sure what we're going to do without him, actually. But he's still going to be around. So I think you'll probably find us referring to him and deferring to him on a regular basis. So I'd just like to take this opportunity, which I will take at every opportunity for the next couple of weeks to thank him for everything he's done. If I could pass over to you Bill now to your last hurrah in scrutiny. Cabinet Member, I was always most welcome. Shucks. Well, I thank the leader for those kind words. It has been a pleasure to work with the Cabinet and the wider council in that role. To answer the question, I actually, this is a question that I can't immediately answer. I'm going to say I'm sure that it has, but can I ask the question of one of our officers, please, that one? Who are we going to? Yes, I do apologise. I can't actually see your full name plate due to the chair being in front of it. Would you mind sliding it slightly? That's fine. I was entirely happy to have his first name and I was just being completely honest by saying I have forgotten what your surname was. That's fine. Please start with yours. Many of the kind of grants that we were promoting were not ones that were administered by ourselves so we don't have the exact date on how the campaign actually affected the uptake of the grants, but we are seeing the house. So the three things that we kind of promoted the most were an uptake of national benefits, an uptake of Household Support Fund and using the food banks that are available. And I'm not sure about the national benefits data, but I know that the Household Support Fund is completely inundated at the minute with requests for support so much that they've had to close applications at the minute just to work through the backlog of the amount of applications that are taking place. And also the information that we have about the food bank usage is also breaking records every single year from now. So we hope that it is having an effect on the uptake, but it's not possible to say for certain. Thank you, and thank you for that response. I mean, it's good to see that there are plans for further roadshows, but I think the more that we can do to publicise that, to get the information out there because that's one of those barriers. So thank you very much for organizing those. Okay, thank you. Counselor Sue Allingson. Thank you, Jack. If Oeis is gone. I'm looking at page 11 and I've got a couple of questions on page 11 if you'll bear with me. Under paragraph 12, we're talking about 400 people and then a further 500 blankets, electric blankets. I think it could be a little more clarity about the fact that the 400 people initially are different from the 500 people that were offered electric blankets. And I feel it's a bit confusing in that respect. Moving on down to paragraph 14 and 15, I think the extrapolations that are made there about how much money could be saved is a matter that should include the word could or as an example of or maybe at its most because if you think about some elderly person, there may be other people in the house who are still needing the central heating. The blankets, therefore, may keep the elderly person who is sitting in a chair warm, but actually there are so many computations of what could be saved that I think the word could be added there a few more times. Okay. Thank you. Councillor Hamley, do you want to take the first question? The first question is that's noted and I'm sure that the author Chris Richards has taken a note of that. On the other one, I think the point is, yes, okay, I accept what Councillor Wellington is saying, but the point is that our actions have actually led to a great deal of savings for people who really need help. That's the point and I'm actually really proud of what this council has done for those people. So, yes, Councillor Wellington, we will look at it to see if we can make it clearer, but the underlying message is clear too. Okay. Anything to go to Chris Richards, anything to add? Are you happy that's the answer? Did you want to go to Chris to add anything or are you happy that's the answer? No, chair. I think Chris Willmode out have made a note of those things and I'll speak to him after the meeting. I'm sure. Councillor Wellington. I entirely agree with you, Councillor Hamley, that it was a lot of good work I have. No, come back from that. I just don't want to over-egg the pudding so that people don't believe what they're being told. That's all. Okay. Thank you very much. Next up is Councillor Heather Williams. Thank you, chair. More of a thanks that I do note that period of poverty has been included in this report and I appreciate. I've raised it quite a lot when Councillor Hamley has very obliged and included it in his report. Just to say thanks, I think, from across the council for his time and his other communities and the fact that he's kept ourselves up to date with all the things we've really appreciated. Thank you, Councillor Hamley. Thank you for those words. Okay. I don't think I need to go back to Councillor Williams at this point. Next up on the list is Councillor James Hobro. Thank you, chair. First of all, I just wanted to make a general comment about this report. I feel really pleased that this council is investing so much money and time and effort in this level of cost of living support. We live in an area that is, on average, very wealthy but where there is still a lot of poverty and so I wanted to just voice my support for the work that's being done and for everything that we're looking at today. So to follow up, I did have a couple of specific questions about the Mobile Food Hub, if that's all right, chair. So first of all, a general question, really. So it's certainly indicated in the report that this project seems to be a success and that it's providing a really useful service. So that's justified to some degree by the number of visits which I think is a really good first indicator. So I wanted to probe a little bit more on our evaluation of its success and what other indicators we have about how successful it has been, and whether or not the things available in the Mobile Food Hub are optimal, whether or not we're tweaking, or to what extent we have any input in that or is the whole project essentially entirely delegated to, I forgot the name of the organisation. Hope to see, I see, thank you. So that was my general question. Okay, so we'll go for that one first and if you have another follow-up. So Councillor Henry. Thank you, chair. As with just about everything that this council does when it comes to the cost of living work, we provide seed funding, we provide help and advice, and the idea at the watchword is sustainability. That's what we are not going to financially prop these things up forever, but the Hope See, I See thing, it was a charity that existed before we became involved, but the funding that we put in has been very successful and we know that because of the increase in the use of the service. And I'm sure that we will continue to give us much support to the Hope See, I See as is necessary, but it appears to be kind of gaining its own momentum. We're finding there's at least one parish council which is supporting it financially now. We would expect that kind of model to be rolled out in other places as well. So just about everything we do, as I say, is to do with sustainability, getting things going, talking to people, getting the community going on it, and then without creating any kind of cliff edge to gradually tail off the funding and off they go. And I have to say, it's a successful model, it's been working very well. Thank you. If I could just add to that and reference the food hub in Gamlingay, which we helped with small grants, I need to buy a couple of fridges. I think that's been our only financial input there, but we do feature it in the magazine as often as we can. So that took a while to build up, but it's now completely sustainable. So it's run by a huge team of volunteers. People give donations, which I think help pay for the rent and the electricity. So if I go in and get stuff, I leave a donation because I'm doing it because I'm trying to avoid as food going into landfill. But I live opposite it, so I look out of my bedroom window in the morning and it doesn't open until 10 o'clock. From 8 o'clock, sometimes in the most incleavened weather, there are people queued up outside it and it's the same people. The number is increasing. It's probably about 20 people these days are queuing up between an hour and two hours to get in there. You don't queue for that long in the rain if it's just for fun or because you fancy a freelo for Mark's and Spencer's bread. You're queuing up because actually this is making a real difference to you and possibly freeing up some of your income to buy your children some new shoes. So that increases. The food hub in Gamlingay also manages the food bank. When I last asked, which was a few weeks ago, I think it was over 45 families, never know. That's double what it was at the outset. So this cost of living crisis is not lessening. The evidence is there. Your eyes to see that it's getting worse. So again, it was a little bit of funding from us and I'm sure when the fridges need replacing, we will step in and help them with that. But that's a collaboration between two churches and I'm blown away by the success of it, but I'm also horrified by the need for it. So thank you very much to both of your answers. I think Councillor Smith's response in particular really helps to bring home the level of need here. May I ask my second question? It's also on the mobile food hub, but a different question. So it's about the awareness within parish councils that it's actually possible to bring in the mobile food hub even if South Cams hasn't decided to send it on the basis of an indication that we have of the level of need. So my ward in family, when I talked about the mobile food hub, the parish council were very interested in this and decided that they would like to pay for it from the parish to bring it in on a trial basis and that trial is still going on, but the early indications are that it is certainly being used. So my question really is to what extent are parish councils aware that this can be done? I don't know but I suspect that many may not be aware and so I wondered if we might be able to publicise this either through members or other communications to the parish council so that they know that this option exists. Thank you. I think that parish councils should be aware, chair. We have regular liaison with parish councils and we make it clear that if they wish to take part, we will hold their hands, so to speak, initially. The initial locations for the mobile hub were decided on what we knew about the need, people on benefits, so on, council tax relief, that kind of thing. We knew how to target it and that was the way that we helped Hope CIC set up. The fact that it's already started to expand, I think we're going to see more of that. I don't think it's going to be any harm, it would be no harm at all to actually give a reminder to the parish councils that this can be done if they wish to do it. I'm just looking at Chris Richards now and he's nodding. It would just be a small note to say, obviously it depends on Hope CIC's capacity to do that as they're running the day-to-day operations. Thank you. Thank you very much. I totally understand that there will be a capacity issue and I think it would be really helpful if there was another round of awareness. Thank you very much for that. Thank you. Do you have any further questions? I do have a question on a different part of the report. I was going to let someone else have a go at first. We will add you back to the end. Did he actually know? Thank you, chair. Thank you to Councillor Handley and to all the officers that have been involved with this excellent work. Following on from Councillor Smith's comments, it's clearly needed in our communities. I wanted to ask specifically about the legacy of this project. In paragraph 4 it mentions that this was recommended on the 20th of March 2023 as part of our response to the cost of living. It's noted that it's a two-year budget. Some of the things that are mentioned in the detail of this report are probably one-off expenditures such as purchasing electric blankets for individuals in need. But there are other things that are part of the scope of the work which have the potential to be beneficial to communities beyond these two years of this project. Things such as the community hubs which used to be the warm hubs have now become the community hubs. I wondered whether Councillor Handley or Chris Riches would be able to speak about the legacy of this project and what things have been put in place to ensure that this good work continues. Councillor Handley. As I said, chair, through you. As I said earlier, the idea is that we set things up, make them help to get them sustainable and then to reduce once the community's got their teeth into it. That's the idea. I'm sure and I'm uncertain that there will be fresh initiatives coming along and indeed if anybody has any ideas, why not speak to us? It won't be me that's helping to bring them forward but any ideas we gratefully received. I don't know if Chris or Gareth has got anything to add. Just in terms of the legacy of each project it is designed where obviously some of them are one-off projects such as the provision of food parcels. If anyone does any ideas of how to make that sustainable without funding we'll be more than happy to hear them. For example, the mobile food hub. We provided initial seed funding to Hope CIC to be able to start this project and the ways that this will come become sustained with a long run is by additional stops requiring additional financial support from either the local parish council or community group. We're in addition to the stop that's already happening in Falmyr. We're in discussions with a number of other parish councils that are interested in this as well. We're also looking at a more local provision which can be supported by the recruitment of mobile food hub champions in each village so these individuals would be responsible for taking local donations to reduce the amount of expenditure that Hope CIC is having to make on purchasing food. Also to build further links with supermarkets and businesses to receive free or cut price food including signing up to fair share which Hope CIC has now done with our support and then finally support access in other streams of funding such as Lottery funding or other local funding schemes administered by different organisations. Similarly for the projects such as the electric bankers projects the community growing projects and the period projects these will all have a lasting legacy as the electric bankers will be used for hopefully many winters to come. The community growing grant is for capital only projects so once the money is spent we'll be able to see the raised beds in the grant again for many years to come and the period poverty projects is going to focus on reusable products which again are not only beneficial for the residents themselves in terms of cost saving but we'll also be able to see the impact of that additional investment for again hopefully many years to come. Thank you councillor Leaming. Thank you both for your comprehensive answer. Thank you. Thank you councillor Braddon. Thank you chair. Well done Bill and your team. You've done a fantastic job. It's been as the leader has said it's not been an easy time and you've made an enormous difference. Remember when you came on to the council you said you came on to make a difference and you have so thank you very much for that. To my question I wanted to point out that we're very fortunate in South Cams that some of our communities have taken the initiative themselves and indeed I'll just cite one where there's been an extremely fruitful relationship between All Saints Church at Land Beach and Emmaus which is the homeless charity locally now Emmaus also have fundraising exercises and they run a cafe and when they have a surplus of materials they send them to the porch at All Saints Church along with all the produce from lots of people who are generous allotmenteers in Land Beach and what is interesting is the number of people on 2011 data on Wikipedia Land Beach has some total of 825 residents it's not a very big community but that porch gets used by a lot of residents and there is a very regular usage of that as a food hub it's extremely inclusive community and they're very helpful so I think it's worthwhile noting that there are these things going on that are aligned with but not reported in this report but they exist nevertheless and thank heavens that they do Onto the question on paragraph 28 perhaps this is for Chair for Bill or indeed Chris Richards at 28 there's a rumination about the fact that the demand for the provision of food parcels which is how we started off helping people has decreased in the last three months possibly because the mobile food hub has nearly doubled the number of food bank locations in the district although it's not possible to establish the exact cause and I just wondered whether one wouldn't want to speculate but certainly one could ask the people who are using it whether there is a demographic difference between who goes to the mobile food hub and whether people go to specific locations and I just wondered whether we might glean any information that way and whether you have any feel for that Definitely Chair, the obvious one of course is that some people have mobility difficulties and having a parcel delivered is going to be a real advantage to them but those who can get out to the mobile food hub obviously are going to have a wider range of use available to them so I think that's the main without speculating I think that's the main difference I suspect Councillor Bradman I don't know if Chris will add to that It was just a small point if there was a difference in demographic between those acts in the mobile food hub and receiving a food parcel we did collect demographics data on the food parcels because you had to fill in a Microsoft form and it was the vast majority of women applying for these parcels I don't have to hand the data of demographics on the mobile food hub and I don't think they're being collected as specifics but we can ask the people that run the mobile food hub day to day on the general demographics of people that are accessing it as well One of the things I'm absolutely aware of is that for some people there is a perception in themselves a stigma associated going to food hub Thankfully less now because it's actually become much more usual and so I know that there's a potential that people would not wish to self-identify as it were and so any kind of questioning of that kind would need to be in a very delicate and sensitive way if it was done at all but I just wondered whether there was a perception amongst the driver for example if they were aware of some cohort or if they were attending but it's sort of very vague and blurry and not very good data as it were but it's just a thought Thank you very much for the work you've done though I absolutely appreciate this and it's a very good report, thank you Councillor Henry wants to come back in again Sorry, just to say to Councillor Bradlam that I think she's absolutely correct to begin with there being some stigma on how people realise that a lot of the produce that's on offer is actually from supermarkets that might have gone to waste otherwise and I think actually there's another and I think that in itself is helpful because someone who's queuing for a mobile food may be there for a completely different reason you know, there's more than one reason more than one reason why a person might wish to use a mobile food hub Thank you very much for the answers, Jen Okay, Councillor James Hope, right? Thank you, Jen So I had a couple of questions if that's okay about the low-income family tracker so that's in sections 4 and 30 so my first question really was I was a bit confused about the figure supplied in section 30 of 187,000 I wondered is this specifically for the low-income family tracker or is that a general figure for the increase in cost of living support that's ended up in paragraph 30 That's my first question because it seems like a very large sum of money so I couldn't tell from reading the report exactly what it was going to That's a handy? Yeah, okay If it's unclear to you, Councillor Hobro If it's unclear to Councillor Hobro then that's perhaps something we should look at but you have to bear in mind that there is a staffing resource attached to this because there is a need for an officer to make the system work to adapt it for our use and to make it work so unless I'm contradicted by one of the officers I suspect I'm right in saying that it is the figure for the new scheme Your colleagues on the right are nodding vigorously Councillor Handley so that can be taken as a success Councillor Hobro Okay, so thank you, that's a straightforward answer to the first question so that leads me on to the other questions I had about that part of the report so I was curious with the you partly answered this but obviously part of this is purchasing a licence for a software package part of it is a plan to do something with the data we get from that so you've already said that part of the cost is staffing for a full-time position but really my question was it was partly about to have some vague indication of how the money is going because I was curious to the distribution there but also on what kind of proactive support has been tried and used successfully in other councils that we might adopt so there is a reference back in section 4 saying that this is we're not the first council to be doing this there are other councils that have used this system successfully to target their support in a way that allows them to be proactive so that is excellent but I wondered if there were any examples of the kind of targeted intervention that that involves so are we talking about information here or something else so I was just hoping for a little more detail if we have that level of detail at this stage in the project thank you I will defer to one of the officers on this one I think I will just have straight over actually Sorry for the dublack on this one so the numbers to clarify so it is 52,000 for the software package for two years and there is 30,000 in the budget for it is in effect contact residents as a result of the project and works resulting from the system and the rest so all of the there are lots and lots of examples of how councils have used it effectively I think the most kind of documented is on benefits take-up so within the system there is a possibility to model based on the existing data there is to see which residents in our district should be claiming certain benefits and I think that is a good example of what we are doing and I think that is a good example in our district should be claiming certain benefits but aren't and there are various examples just off the top of my head I think in focus and hide council they ran a pension credits campaign and in the first year they were able to get 157,000 pounds of extra benefits into the pockets of their residents and there are much larger figures than that in other councils in East riding Yorkshire it is something like 19 million pounds of benefits that they were able to get into the pockets of their residents and there are also examples in terms of preventing homelessness there is modelling within the system to be able to target residents that would be a risk of homelessness so based on the data that we would have on either their council tax arrears or rent arrears if they are living in social housing where they are tenants where they are tenants first and so once you are able to identify who those residents are it is possible to implement more proactive support to ensure they don't actually drop into crisis and there have been other councils that have been able to demonstrate a reduction in temporary accommodation use and homelessness applications and I hope that we will be able to do similar but it obviously depends on what we see when we put the data into the system so thank you very much for the answers I mean the reason for my question partly because I think this looks like a really exciting direction in which we are moving and so I was curious to get more information about it in general but also given the figure it is clearly going to become a substantial proportion of our expenditure on cost of living so I think it is great to hear a bit more detail in the way that it is going and I wonder if perhaps one or two of the things you have just said might be added to the report because I think it could be of interest to the readership so thank you for the answers OK, thank you very much next up is Councillor Heather Williams Thank you chair for allowing me to come back on this it was just what we said earlier I completely agree that where possible re-usable sanitary products are the ideal but please don't make it exclusive because there are costs attached to those as well it's not just the cost of buying the maintenance and everything for some people this is something that's very hard for a lot of people to be asking for so let's not do anything that then makes it harder still thank you Thank you and Councillor Libio I wanted to ask about paragraph 26, community vegetable gardens in that it's only allowed apparently from April to October this year which seems to be quite a short time to be establishing community vegetable gardens needs a little bit longer than that normally but also I was wondering how they were being supported and promoted it was actually quite an important or could be quite an important project to take forward because not just growing vegetables and the economic side of that and the health side of the healthy diet but also the proven mental health benefits of actually being outside and doing something with the earth which has been established now for a number of years and is extremely good for people and actually reduces isolation in the community to be involved in projects like that it would be just interesting to see how long that project is planned for beyond October this year and how it's being supported Thank you for having me The May to October period is of course the growing season the idea of this is a relatively small grant funding it's for things like seeds and general paraphernalia and it's the idea is to encourage people to get into this we do of course have larger grants now available for allotments to help improvement of allotments or even possibly initiating new ones and we've been talking to the parish councils parish councils about that I'm a lot older it's something I hope to be doing more of in the coming months and as councillor Earl mentioned mental health I first hand I benefited myself from the ability to go down my allotment during lockdown and I could speak to people on other allotments legally during lockdown and I found it a huge benefit and I'm 100% for allotments and there are very simple ways you can do to improve allotments the provision of toilets for example can make it more accessible and so on to families and so on there are simple ways that they can be improved and we are doing our best to help community groups and parish councils improve their allotments Thank you very much councillor Earl Thank you very much As far as I can see that is the end of the questions that members have suggested they wish to ask in relation to that like somebody saying online So therefore there have been a couple of occasions where during the questions that have been asked councillor Hanley has agreed that there may well be some looking at that sort of word editing and such like obviously the majority of things that have been asked have been related to qualifications or praise or such like so therefore I think that we have a couple of small items which obviously Ian will have noted and therefore we will agree to obviously accept the knowledge report and thank officers and Cabinet for their work and I would suggest we just do that by affirmation if everyone is happy to proceed at that point Excellent thank you very much everyone Of course councillor Hanley yes This is my last scrutiny meeting as a member of Cabinet Can I just thank the officers not just of the community's team but all of the officers that I've been associated with I found them a thoroughly professional bunch very hard working and they come through a really tough time I mean the Covid work the homes for Ukraine work cost of living work has tested them I can tell you I saw it first hand and I just want to thank them most sincerely Excellent thank you very much everyone Thank you councillor Hanley So we move on to questions I was going to say thank you very much on public committee but you may well find yourself answering something in item 6 you never quite know the KPIs often range widely I'm sure councillor Smith won't throw you something but you never I always think in relation to KPIs that all Cabinet members just have to be ready because you never quite know what's coming so therefore thank you very much so we have a gender item 6 relates to the quarter 4 performance report so we have a number of questions in this regard so we will be reviewing the KPI results we will be employing feedback to officers and making any recommendations to cabinets obviously we will be exploring generally what the information tells us so I'm not sure if during my little preamble bit there designed to lengthen but they hand up at that point Councillor Ellington has excellent oh gosh I'm on page 28 which you're talking about staff's sickness so I'm sorry if I've leaked over several other elements that others may wish to speak about what I wanted to know about the staff's sickness days so please is were these figures based on the four day week or the five day week if you see what I mean because we're talking about we've got figures that go back to 21, 22, 23 and therefore comparing 24 if we're talking about a four day week is really comparing apples and pears whereas on the other hand we're talking about working a four day week and therefore if it was five day week that you were measuring it would be different at least my maths say so but tell me I've got it wrong thank you okay Councillor Smith thank you so it's a question that I asked as well and I can't remember the answer so can I just ask Geoff how that data has been has been analysed thank you yes thank you through you chair it's full time equivalent so it doesn't actually matter how many hours we're classing as a full time equivalence so at the moment it would be people who were working 32 hours a week we've done that for consistency so that we can ensure we're giving you comparable figures across the years hope that makes sense thank you Councillor Ellington I will have to take that away and think about it very hard and work out whether it whether it does or not thank you please obviously do feel free to put your hand up again however many minutes if you reach the point of having further things to say it might be longer than that well you never know ok thank you very much second up is Heather Williams thank you I'm deferring to my great statistician here so before I get on to my questions just to be a response there so per FTE yes I understand that's how you get your point based system of course if people aren't reporting that they're ill on their day off on their non-working day then surely that's still going to skew the result because we're not working on percentage of hours worked here are we so it's not we've lost x amount percentage to give it a comparison we're doing x amount of days per FTE but we've taken 20% of the days out our statistician in the room is working it out carefully I can feel the cogs turning beside me but Chair everyone if you wouldn't mind then I'll go on to my actual questions could that one have provoked from the response given that's fine so yes my glib responses people don't report if they're sick on a Saturday or Sunday but I'm sure Jeff can give a more satisfactory answer and I agree it's complicated and I haven't got a statistician beside me or perhaps I have Jeff what I can clarify through you chair is that the figures should include the non-working day so if somebody is sick for a week for example we would count that person is being sick for five days I think what cancer Williams is referring to is that there's a potential that if somebody a non-working day say a Friday and they felt sick on a Friday because they wouldn't otherwise go into work that they might not report that they should report it but there is a possibility that some members of staff might not be reporting that but effectively they should be reporting it and it should be being recorded in that way council Williams all council I'm happy for either of you if you wish to come back on this point the only thing I'm going to say is we will maybe allow back and forward about three occasions and then we may request that it's taken offline simply for everyone's benefit no no I and this is the point about how I was happy obviously for the first eight to so suppose for simplicity that if everybody gets two weeks holiday a year 52 weeks in the year then there are 50 working weeks in the year if people work five days a week that means that there are 250 working days I'm just keeping them at simple if they only work four days a week that means that there's only 200 working days and then if somebody was sick let's just say 25 days then they would be sick for 10% of their working days if we work five days a week but they would be sick for 25 divided by 200 which is one eighth so that's about 12 12.5% so in one in one measure they're sick for 10% of the year and in another measure they're sick for 12.5% of the year so there is actually a difference so if you compare the numbers one to the other then it would be more serious if the same number of days have been reported sick than it used to be I'm going to look at you each time Councillor Smith first of all Geoff I'm going to have to get back to Councillor Bygot with that I'm having to think through what he's what he's saying I think I can sort of understand I mean certainly in terms of annual leave annual leave is proportioned so actually people would have less annual leave under the four day week than they previously would have but I'm going to have to I think I'm going to have to go away and work out some real life examples that I understand and then I can get back to Councillor Bygot with a responsive if that's okay chair Great thank you very much Right, Councillor Williams you were actually up for your own question Yes it's my own question but just to simplify things I think the issue is that if somebody's sick we're losing 1.2 days worth of work as opposed to previously one so what we're saying is that if somebody's sick is actually more of an issue than a day sick out five days just if that helps clarify things from this memory I will now chair refer to my questions Thank you Just as I'm substituting Do you want to questions for appendix A and B? We at the moment are doing our KPIs just A and we'll come to the business term section later 5TO So it was just mainly around 26 about satisfaction with responsive repairs and I do appreciate that this goes up and down as things go on but in the commentary to do with March is this the pressure placed on the heating service to respond to extremely high demand during the coldest month, coldest weeks so I assume that's sort of the March that's why March is worse than the December one but that's not something that should be of a surprise to us So what I wasn't clear from what happened here is what work has been done to bolster our resilience against this what proactive work has been done on this Thank you chair That was for Smith So I agree with you completely Times of year winter is we kind of know it's coming don't we but I would like to ask with chair if I may Peter Campbell to give the detail of how we're going to get better prepared for this in future years Thanks Campbell who clearly knew it was coming his way Yeah to begin with I think that we are prepared obviously we know when winter is, we know approximately when the heating season starts but in mind this is a satisfaction survey I suspect that this is a special moment I've no fact to back this up that if people are waiting for a couple of days to get their heating fixed there'll be more likely to be satisfied with that than there would be to have something which has less impact on their lives fixed So I think what we're trying to say and accept that it could be it could be perhaps slightly better is that heating satisfaction with expectations on the heating repair are higher than there would be in terms of repairs Thank you Sorry councillor, I haven't seen the councillers Are you happy? I usually try to get all the illnesses out first but no councillor Williams I'm trying to do as I'm told I'm trying very hard So I completely agree with you as something who's boiler did not play play the game just before Christmas that it is, you notice more and also things like sanitary things if those sort of things have more impact While I agree with you the proactive work gives me a reason as to why the figures go up but is there more that we can be doing in order to ensure that people at least don't feel dissatisfied even if it is heating Do you want to come in now? I may come first and then go back to Peter So our target is extraordinarily high on this and our intervention point is very high as well so we're already dealing with a very high target What I would like to draw your attention to is the next page emergency repairs in 24 hours where our target is 100% and the actual is 100% so on emergency repairs which I would suggest are sometimes heating ones where you have a particularly vulnerable person we're scoring 100% there so we're dealing with a far more ambitious target than you might see in many other councils we've also recently moved to a different way of collating the satisfaction data which I think has possibly made it more challenging because people are being asked on the doorstep I believe their level of satisfaction rather than being sent an email or a letter saying can you fill this in and say how satisfied you are so we're getting 100% of responses to people whereas before a lot of people I think probably didn't respond so that probably skewed it so I think this is much more accurate but I take your point that we would like to see an improvement on that next year if there is nothing more galling then aim is to switch the heating on and the retro stuff not coming on as I know when I find my husband hasn't filled up the oil tank which doesn't go down well thank you I'll now go to theleh and ask if it's okay for a councillor to criticise their partner in the public meeting whether or not it's considered defamation I haven't even started I have a shake of the head from the monitoring officer moving back onto Peter Campbell who I believe has further things to add in relation to Councillor Williams' question The new method of repair satisfaction is compared to the old method which was the operative passing over the PDA that they had in the hand for the tenant to enter their satisfaction in front of them. The new method is a telephone call from an independent contractor llawer yn dweud y cyfnodgyffaredd. What Councillor Smithy says is quite right we are performing very well on the emergency repairs which include a total lot of heating. And of course we give priority for people who are more vulnerable. I think it may be helpful if I go away from this meeting ac mae'n amddannaf yn i gael eich ddweud, i'n gweithio'r gweithio'r sefydliadau ar y dystiad, ac mae'r cyffredinol yn cael ei ddweud yn ôl i gyda'r cyffredinol, ac mae'n cael eu gwneud o'r cyffredinol ac yn cael eu gwneud o'r ddymarfod. Dyfodd ar y ddweud, ac mae'n cyffredinol o'r peth yn ei bod yn cerddw i'r cynnig o'u cyffredinol o'r gweithio Cymru fel yw'r Llywodraeth. Mae'n bwyntio gwahanol i'r cyhoedd. Yn gyfnodd ar y gyfer, gyda'n i'n mynd i'n bwyntio, a oedden nhw'n fflaid i'r byddau. Oedden nhw'n eu gwahanol i'r byddau. gan gymorth o'r 110 o gael eich ysgol i'w mwyaf i ysgol. Yn y cwmhyself ni'n credu hwnnwau… Nid oedd nid oedd angen chi'n gweithio i'r fyrdd am yr adroddau. Fe wnaeth yna, mae ni'n gweithio i'r amgweithio. Mae gennyddu, yn rhan i gweithio i'r ysgol i chi ysgol i'r situationu cyffredinidol... ... Mae dyma'r function i'r wneud, mae'n gweithio i chi'n gweithio i chi'n gweithio i'r wneud... I'm just minded or reminded of the discussion that we had in employment and staffing, where we also spoke about the fact that maybe people are getting less sick because they are working on the four-day week. So there's all sorts of variables in there until we get more information. So I just wanted to mention that as well. But if it's OK with you, I'd like now to also focus on page 26 and the other red markers there. And I just wanted to, I think we've had this conversation at Scrooodynowview before about the national target for re-letting properties. And one of the things we can't control is how many properties come back to be re-let. And I just note in the narrative there, it mentions that there were 38 terminations during that time. And so that for me indicates why it was still red. But again, I can see that the target there we are... Well, officers are working very hard to meet those targets. So just feel the pain there because we don't know how many properties will come back and the nature of those properties and how much is going to be needed to be done before they're re-let. But I just wanted to move on to page 27 and just say one of the proactive things that this councillor seems to have done is to employ an officer specifically for damp mold and condensation and can see what a difference that has made. So that to me is a real example of seeing that there is an issue and dealing with it. So I just wanted to say, well done for that. Professor Smith. Thank you very much. So, you know, something's happening in the world that our houses, many more houses are returned to us in a really, really poor condition because of the sign of the times. But, you know, you cannot turn around a house that is a real mess in a very short period of time. I think we need to review some of our targets because I think, you know, things change. And if housing stocks regularly coming back in a very poor condition, needing major refurbishment, not a lick of paint and a sweep of a duster, this is, you know, new kitchens, new bathrooms and all sorts of things, I think we need to adjust our target accordingly. Having said that, we are still in the upper quartile compared with similar stock only councils. So our performance is actually very good and it's slightly galling that it appears red here when actually it's amongst the best in the country. I mean, I hope as life settles down on the cost of living crisis and bates and so on, perhaps we won't see what is part of society's ills, I think, that, you know, fingers crossed. Okay, thank you. I don't know if there's anything Peter would like to add, Chair, to that. Could I just add to that, or just a clarification, is that properties do come back to us in a poor condition. That's not so much as that people leaving the properties with willful damage. It's more that we have older people, particularly in our properties, who've lived there for many years and as they've got older and their health has deteriorated, they've refused some offers to improve their properties. The fact that the disruption was too great. So we're flexible enough to allow that by the wishes of our tenants. But that does mean that we have to play an amount of catch up at time of tenancy change. The thing I'd like to mention very briefly is the damp mold and condensation cases. Our numbers are very low compared to other authorities and we're in a amuable position that during the stock conditions survey, which we completed last year, we in effect carried out surveys on at least 97, 98% of all our properties. So we know for a fact that's a line in the sand for us and we've actually been proactively out to all our properties. I'm not aware of any of the local authority who's taken such a positive step. Thank you for those answers and having the empathy for those tenants who really do not want to be disturbed by having a new kitchen when you're however old you are and it's something I guess that is logged. And so, you know, when that's coming back, that's what it's doing. But you never know how many properties are going to come back. So thank you. Thank you very much. Elsa, go back then. Thank you. And not wishing to label the point, but my point was on this same item because actually Peter Campbell has pointed out the thing that I wanted to suggest was probably the reason. And that is that we have, we're a generous and kindly authority and as a result, we often have tenants who have been with us for a very long time, a really very long time. And I have been to properties where I can see that the property, it's a council property, but because they, as they've declined in health, they haven't want to have interventions done. Their property nevertheless has declined with them sadly. I also note that in March, sadly, that is often when elderly people who are close to the edge pass away. And so that's indeed a resident in my own village, a mother who was in a council property passed away in March. And that's often the way when people are declining in their own homes. It's sort of nothing to do with whether the heating works. It's sort of like a phasic thing for some people. So I actually wanted to flag this as, and I'm very glad that you put that it's an internal target of 17 days, which is very challenging. And I wanted to say that this actually shows that very often we are not disturbing our residents in their declining days. But one of the things I did think might be useful to track, and it's interesting that Peter Campbell referred to it, is how many of these properties coming back to us at the end of a tenancy have been damaged deliberately, if any, and it might be none, and how many of them are simply because it's an elderly tenant who has died. So that might be just something that might be useful to have as narrative. But I think that shows that we're a generous and kindly council that recognise our tenants need their time in peace. Thank you. Thank you. So I think we need to be careful about information like that because, you know, if it might allow us to identify people, but maybe Peter might say something else, so I don't really know what the answer is. We do collect that information, and we have a lot of information on elderly real-life properties. Indeed, we've just started a new analysis to go through the data for all empty and real-life properties, to look at how much time we're spending not only on the voids overall, but on each stage of the real-life process with a view to bringing around further improvement. So what we can do is that we will report that to back to members at a future meeting. And within that, we can include some commentary on the number of properties that have been damaged first and numbers that have just been unimproved. Thank you. I certainly wouldn't want anything identifiable to be in there. That's great. Thank you very much. Councillor James, excuse me, Councillor James Houghbray. Thank you, Chair. So I had a question about the planning application KPIs on page 23, if that's okay. So looking at page 23 in general, it looks like a really good... We're seeing some really good trends over the past year, right? So we're clearly dealing with planning applications in a more timely manner than we were a year ago. And this is excellent news. So my question really was to probe into that a little more for some reassurance, I suppose. So I would make the observation that what we have here are KPIs that reflect the timings, but no KPIs that reflect the quality. And in many situations, there's inevitably a trade-off between timing and quality. I would hope that these improvements are due to us having improved in recruitment, perhaps as a result of the four-day working week trial over the past year, and that therefore our ability to process planning applications has increased and that we're simply getting through the backlog rather than any trade-off against anything else. So I suppose I'm just looking for a little more detail on that, as reassurance that these really quite impressive improvements over the last year are pretty much what they appear to be. Thank you. Terence, go to Smith. Thank you. So I'll answer the first question, and I may ask our chief executive to fill in any detail. So we were really struggling in planning to improve performance, and that was one of the main drivers for us embarking on the four-day week trial. Now, since we've done that, from that point, and it's quite obvious from these graphs, we've seen really quite, well, very significant improvements within our planning service. So that's the service which is really struggling with long-term vacancies, and good as agency staff are, they're not quite the same as permanent staff who know the council, who know the areas, know the people they're dealing with. So we have filled a lot of those roles. We still use some agency staff for short-term projects which are funded elsewhere, but I think the stability of our staff, and when we advertise jobs, we are now getting way more applicants, much higher quality applicants, and I think that, in part, reflects this. We actually, can you believe it, we sometimes get rung up by people from the private sector, planners from the private sector now asking if we've got any jobs. I mean, fairly unheard of, I think, certainly in the past. But I mean, if Liz Watts could add some detail to what I've said, please. Thank you, chair. It was. Thank you, and through you, chair. To answer your point about quality, Councillor Hobro, I mean, it's a really good challenge, and some people may feel when they get to the end of their planning application process if they don't get what they wanted, that the quality wasn't good, but we would maintain that we got to the right outcome. But the challenge was one that the team took up through adopting ISO 9001, which is a quality management standard. As you know, we received that last July, and that was really a whole team effort to put in place a series of quality management processes to ensure that the quality of the decision making and the process in which the decision is made is really good, and not just that we get to a decision. So the team are really focused on that. They always, at the end of a planning permission process, ask for feedback from customers, and so we have a sort of continuous feedback loop about how customers felt, and sometimes people just cross because they didn't get what they wanted, but often we get really useful feedback from customers about how we could improve the process, and that's a kind of continual process that my colleagues in planning are working on. Councillor Hobro. So thank you, so I mean that the comments on ISO 9001 do give a bit assurance about the quality aspect, and I totally understand that it is very hard to define a KPI that would measure quality alongside these KPI's, which are much easier to define, that measure the timings. So first of all, the fact that I'm asking my ask is supplementary, because I know that some of the, in some situations, there are a number of extensions that are requested and granted, and I think if an extension is requested and granted, then the case would still fall into this category where it's within the agreed timeline. So I suppose as far as the issue is on, so I just wanted to check that there isn't any increase in, or significant increase in the number of extensions being requested and granted, because I would comment that if, I mean I put in a planning application a few months ago, an extension was requested and granted and this is simply because as a member of this council it had to come to committee whereas it ordinarily wouldn't have done. So the reason was perfectly understandable, but I did observe that I think as a typical householder if an extension is requested, most people would simply say yes, oh yes, of course I'd rather this is dealt with than not grant an extension. So yeah, I just look for a little further reassurance that the increase isn't due to something like that and that you are actually seeing the backlogs going down in a way that makes sense, anecdotally, from the inside. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Smith. So the last time I asked the question, I was told that it was, the reason that an extension was requested and granted was invariably because the applicant had not submitted all the information that was required. And that's true of agents as well as just householders. So I think our website is very clear about what's needed and sometimes people don't provide it all. So one option is just to throw the application back at them as it's an incomplete application you've got to do it all again or there's the kind of compassionate which gives people the opportunity, gives people extra time in order to submit what's needed be it a back survey or whatever in order that it can carry through. But I don't know whether this has got anything to add to that or whether this, that was the answer I got quite some time ago when I asked that question. Yes, Liz, sorry. Through you, Chair. So I think I'm going to have to give you a written answer on that. I did and I was just trying to find the data but I can't find it. It's not to hand and my colleagues from planning are in a separate briefing at the moment so I'm afraid I'm covering for them. I did recently have a conversation with the DM manager and she indicated to me that extension time were going down but I can't be specific about it so if I may, could we provide a written answer? Thank you. Thank you. I feel you've answered the questions very well and a little extra clarification will be welcome. Thank you very much. I mean, just to reiterate, I mean, I think this is really good news and I'm just probing a little to make sure that it is indeed that the really good news that it looks like. So thank you very much for the answers. Very well. Thank you Chair. I just wanted to return to the discussion about sickness earlier because I felt it was unnecessarily confused and I don't think it needs a statistician either. So the term FTE relates to working time only so it doesn't relate to non-working time whether that's holidays or Saturdays or Sundays. So the percentage is the percentage of sickness working time only. So it's automatically, it doesn't matter whether you're working one, two, three or four or five days, it's percentage of working time. So I think, I don't know whether that's provided clarity but I hope it has. Unless Jeff Memory jumps in and says I'm wrong, it is simply a percentage of working time. OK, that's absolutely fine. I note my colleagues on my right here are having a further discussion. However, if they wish to say anything on it they will have to raise their hand and be added to the list. I'm not in any way denying anyone the opportunity to do so but if anyone wish to either Councillor Smith or Jeff Memory wish to respond to what Councillor Bedfark has said, I'll see you shaking your back head and one moment you may not just be Jeff Memory because we also had this what's possibly as well. So Jeff Memory. Thank you, chair. Yes, that's essentially correct. If I'm understanding the argument that was being put forward by Councillor Bygert I think we're in a position where we would be saying if somebody worked for example 50 weeks, if they have a week off then actually it doesn't matter that they've worked four or five days. It's one-fifth dieth of the time that they work. But if it's less than a week, say one day, then that one day has a bigger impact because they work less days. So I think that's what I'm exploring and will respond to Councillor Bygert in writing if I'm understanding that correctly. Thank you, well, back in the frame. Thank you, Chairman. So I think the issue here is that the KPI is, so FS125 is expressed in terms of the number of days. So I think I'm right in reading this as that in December the average employee took 1.67 days as leave versus a target of 1.75 days and in March they took 1.94 days. So if it's expressed as a percentage then it wouldn't make a difference. But if it's expressed in days then the number of days has to be multiplied by 1.25 in order to compare the result under four-day working week that I think was out of point before. I am choosing to listen intently. I have lots of thoughts in my head but I'm choosing to listen intently and unless anyone else wishes at this point to comment we will move on again in a second. Councillor Bygert, is that not to comment or to move on? Come on, to move on. Geoff memory, okay. There's lots of visuals to come in. Councillor Williams, do you wish to comment at this point before I move on? Just to reiterate, the issue is at the moment staff are being asked to do 100% of the work in 80% of the time. Therefore, if I've worked here and I have a day off actually that means that we're not just losing one day's work, we're losing 1.25 days' work on that day because the day is required to do more and it's not that that one day off doesn't exist it's that you're expected to do that one day over the other four. So it's about the value of the day itself and as Councillor Bygert says unless you are factoring that in you're not going to get life light because previously someone having a day off they wouldn't be required to do any amount of work now so the loss wouldn't be as great as previous but also on that point and I was going to do it as well on the topic how the fact that officers and I've sat in many meetings on this the fact that officers are required to report in that they are ill on their non-working day has never been mentioned to my knowledge before so how has that been communicated with staff? How are staff meant to know that if they feel rough on a Monday or a Friday and it's their non-working day that they are meant to still let you know because if not that in itself read a skew of data as well. It seems an entirely valid question related to the API. Councillor Smith. So I mean that's an operational question so I'd like to give those to Geoff. Geoff membrane. Yes, what happens when somebody's sick upon their return to work they meet with their manager and the manager will discuss with them when they were sick when they were well enough to come back to work and then they put that information on to the I-Trent system where we get our statistics from so that's the process as it works it's a discussion with the individual when they get back to work. Well there are plenty of staff that wouldn't receive that sort of they've had a day off work or two days off work they wouldn't receive that sort of fact-to-work assessment surely it would have been more accurate and simpler to just make all staff aware that they need to say if they were ill on those days if it's to being included if not working on a progress that hasn't been enforced surely cannot be relied upon. Geoff membrane. I think all I can say is yes people should be having that discussion with their line manager when they get back from sickness it's not the case that people wouldn't have that discussion it might only be a very short discussion if the absence was only for a day or two but they should be having that informal discussion with their manager when they get back to enable the manager to update the system. Help some audience. I'm not convinced that's happening in every case chair at all. So can I take that comment from you not as a rejection of the answer given in terms of saying that the answer hasn't attempted the answer question more a disagreement on the principle related to the what's coming into it. I think that needs looking into it. I mean from a scrutiny point of view I think that there needs to be explanation of this and that's definitely the details around this because it's an important part of it. What I'm getting at is that when I go back to people and I say are we happy to answer I'm always worried that someone's literally going to turn around and say I absolutely do not think your answer has any validity whatsoever which of course would be an issue. What I sense in terms of this ongoing discussion which may or may not come up again in a few moments is that there seems to be a particularly detailed investigation related to this KPI and the extent to which as a scrutiny committee we are able to simply take the KPI at face value or whether there needs to be as you've just said there a further evaluation of exactly the way in which the KPI has been calculated which may lead to coming back and having a valid explanation which satisfies everybody or may lead as we have had on occasion in the past and need for a recalibration of where we are. Is that reasonable? Okay. I have councillor Sue Allington and then councillor Tom Oregott. So... Thank you. And then councillor Obro, councillor Allington. Thank you. I'm on page 43 and I'm particularly looking at item 5C. Is it so? So I can't say to you that. Let's pause you for a second. So I think you've moved on to the next section. And what I want to do is just take... I will make you first on the next section. Okay, fair enough. And what I will do, so you've jumped ahead of us, you see. So what I'll do is I'll come back to you on that. I'll take the last couple of questions. I might then be proposing we take a short break of about three or four minutes or so for people to go to the toilet. And then we will come back into the business permit and you will be first councilling to that point. So I think it's now councillor Obro. Thank you, Chairman. Sorry. No, no, you... To leave the whole point about the sickness dates. Just a sort of question of clarification, really. So forgive me if I've remembered or interpreted this wrong. But was it said at some point that if somebody is sick for a week, then that goes down in the system as five days sick rather than four? Let's get an answer from Geoff Memby to that very specific question. I seem to recall that being said. If somebody's sick for a week, I said it would be one-fiftieth of the... Sorry. I think what coun... Sorry to speak for you. I'll just do it in a slightly different form. Where's Councillor Bradlam? Thank you. Councillor Bradlam. Councillor Bradlam. The question that Councillor Byger is asking is an entirely legitimate question. I recognise that we are falling into an area which by definition... Councillor Bradlam. Councillor Bradlam. Thank you. I recognise that we are into an area which obviously is a significant area of disagreement between groups on the council and is also, quite understandably, an area that causes a large amount of debate. However, Councillor Byger's question is an entirely legitimate question which is entitled to us. What I just wanted to do at that point was just to say very clearly and forgive me if I am misinterpreted but it may be quite good if I have a go as Geoff Memby hasn't quite done it. My interpretation is very simple if the question that Councillor Byger is asking is that staff are working a four-day week, they are working a four-day week and the explanation that's been given is it relates to a contract that is officially a five-day week but they work a four-day week. I think that's a general agreement for where we are. So the question I believe that Councillor Byger is asking is if somebody is off for an entire week, so a five-day period, is that recorded as four days of absence or is that recorded as five days of absence? Would it be possible, Chair, for me to check with colleagues in HR because I wouldn't want to give any incorrect information and then put that as part of a more detailed briefing note to come back to scrutiny? Clearly there's been a lot of questions asked around this and I can see that there's a need for clarity. So rather than say something which might not turn out to be 100% correct, may I check that with colleagues and bring a statement back, please? I'll go back to you, Councillor Byger, before moving on. Thank you very much for the offer of providing a written answer later and I do actually think that's the best way to handle that question. I just wanted to get that on the public record so that we're clear on exactly what the answer is going to be and just to add one supplementary question to that. Is there a difference in the number of days that come up on the KPI between somebody, in the first instance, being reported sick for two weeks and the second instance, based on my earlier calculation of 50 working weeks in the year, of being sick every second Wednesday? So basically you're sick for 25 days if you're sick every second Wednesday and you're sick for 25 days. No, that's if you take five weeks off. So just the question really is, is there a difference in the KPI between taking a whole week off or taking one day off? Okay, Geoff, before you answer, I have Councillor Smith. So look, I think to be fair, this is getting quite muddied and complex. I think to be fair to members of the committee, it would be far better that we wait for Geoff to produce a detailed explanation of how this is all calculated, which will include all of that information and I'm very happy for him to share it in advance of the next meeting because this is obviously a very live subject at the moment. But I think, you know, I said, I'm getting lost. So perhaps other people in the room are getting lost as well. So I think just to be fair to capture all this and put it in writing in such a way that it's accessible to everybody, not just the statisticians in the room, please. Okay. Geoff, is there anything you wanted to add or are you happy to go with what Councillor Smith has just said? I'm very happy to go with what Councillor Smith said. I understand what Councillor Byger said and I'll make sure that that's covered in the briefing note. Okay, thank you. I'm just going to check with some of the colleagues before I move on because we are almost at the end of this section. So I'm just going to... When I say your name, you may look at me and not have any idea why I'm saying your name. Okay, but Councillor Lim and I just noted a few to that. Councillor Hobro, was there something you wish to say at this point? Not on this topic, but I have a question in this section. That's fine. Councillor Bradman, anything you wish to say on this point? And Councillor Hart? Thank you, Jen. Just very quick, I promise. I'm just also mindful when I log on to my trend there are options in there to record sickness and absenteeism. So I'm assuming that that's the same for officers. But I would be interested to know how that tall is. And I'm just wondering if, Jeff, would it be able to include that when the feedback? How that all links with those records? Because that seems a very easy way to record sickness and absenteeism on there. Not like I've ever done that, but there you go. I'll take that as a suggestion, Jeff. That's okay rather than getting an answer. I think the last bit of this point in relation to this before we will happily take on to a hope very slightly different question is Councillor Heather Williams again. Thank you. I think having more information as the leader suggested is sensible. But if that work is going to be done then I think it would be beneficial to factor in the fact that now the increase from 30 to 32 means in itself it's not even a four-on-one working because you've got those two. So some people, for example, are doing two hours on their non-working day and some people are doing half an hour each day. So if we go into the trouble of that work then I think it's important to see how that modelling going forward will help and clear in advance how that's going to be calculated for the purpose of sickness. So I think part of the reason we're in this muddle is because it's not been clear how it's been calculated. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Councillor Hover, you are currently on last person if you have a question related to KPI. Thank you. So my question is about pages 2930, the KPIs around waste and in particular the percentage of household waste sent for reuse, recycling and composting which is on page 30E418. So I note that there are comments alongside this KPI basically giving reasons why the situation might be improving in ways that we can't see due to the issues of weight of packaging. So really what I wanted to comment on is the fact that over the past four years, ignoring seasonal trends, but over the past four years this figure has remained approximately static. Now I'm well aware that there's a very indefinite relationship between our ability to influence the way that households deal with waste and these numbers and that these are often quite subtle issues. On the other hand, it is disappointing. I assume that we're looking for a gradual increase in this number. What we would like to see on a good day would be this number increasing gradually over the past four years rather than remaining static. So I wondered if I could just have some comments on our current thinking here as to why it has remained so static for four years and whether there are any new initiatives that we are contemplating or that we have rolled out or are working on that might lead to this number going up. Thank you. I can see Bo Day is waiting to jump in as well to give some detail to what I'm going to say. So it's a funny one recycling, isn't it? Because once performance depends on how much stuff people are bringing into their homes and putting into their bins. I think we do a huge amount of work to make sure that the right waste goes into the right bin. The ideal is that the packaging manufacturers and the supermarkets and so on start actually reducing the amount of waste that they generate. So it's a massive annoyance to many of us that we get home from the supermarket with our shopping and then throw huge amounts of plastic and card and so on in the bin. So really we would far rather reduce than recycle. In the narrative here there's something about packaging becoming more lightweight which is impacting. But we believe the top three performing councils in the country are lived and controlled councils. So there's some learnings we had from them about what it is they're doing to get up to the sort of 60% level that we are not. But I'm sure Bo Day will be able to give you the detail of what we are doing to try and move that forward. Thank you. Thank you Chancellor Smith and through you answer most of the questions I was going to give. I think the main thing that we're not yet doing and other top recycling councils are doing is collecting food waste separately. We have now received some funding from government and we are planning to start to collect food waste separately on a weekly basis from March 2026. The other factors as well, one of which is some councils that are the top performing they collect the black bean waste on a three weekly cycle. So that's a common trait as well which we do not have and some also then charge for the green waste. But by far the most common trait is that the top recycling councils, they collect food waste on a weekly basis. So when we begin to do that we should see a red scope. And when we did a trial about a year and a half ago we did see that food waste will have a big impact because about a third of what's in the black bean is food waste that can be recycled. So if we take that out of the black bean and we recycle that, then our recycling rates will go up as well. I hope I've asked the question, sorry. So thank you for the answer. So I think the main answer really is that the way to improve this is going to be the second food waste selection. So obviously we have to wait for that. So I wonder if as a supplementary I could just probe a little on the other aspects. So is the more that we can do that we are seeing any other councils doing on public education or information? And I assume this also relates to our work on encouraging more home produce allotments or this sort of thing. So except there's a big picture here but I wondered if there are any other significant facets to it beyond the issue of the second food waste collection that we might be able to look at learning, accepting that there are other lived and controlled councils that are doing very well at this that we might be able to learn from. Thank you. Thank you very much. So actually I think our public education work is exemplary. I remember some time ago being at Milton Country Park where we had our team there encouraging people, talking to people about how to recycle more and obviously we really exploit the Southcams magazine where every single time we put that out it's got masses of information in a sort of central pull out about what can go in each bin. I hope that this sort of community growing small grants has some impact there as well but you can't tell people once. You have to tell them again and again and again because they forget or something changes so it's an ongoing programme but again may I refer to Bode for some more detail about the community education we do. Thank you, Councillor Smyth, and through you. Absolutely we do quite a lot of work on education. We are continuing to do more. We are collaborating with other partners in the county and also in the area as well. It's behavioural change is very, very difficult to quantify but we are doing all we can and we are learning from best practice as well. You will also see that KPI ES412 has actually gone down. This is residual waste. So on the one hand we haven't quite hit our recycling targets because we need to collect food waste and because the weight of packaging has gone down. On the other hand we can see that the behavioural change campaigns we are doing are having an impact because the total amount of waste collected is coming down. So it's a moving target. We will hit one and the other one is moved away but we are continuing to roll out different measures, different campaigns just to try and hit both targets. One that we are working very, very hard on at the moment that you have seen the campaigns on social media is reducing contamination just to make sure that what we do collect most of it we can actually recover and recapture. And a big one that we are working on now is actually what people put in their bins just as a side issue but as a comment and a plea for help. We have had three vehicle fires in the last three weeks. We had just one, two days ago. So people are now beginning to put the wrong things into the bins. So we are getting batteries all sorts into the vehicles and that's caused three fires in the last three weeks. So there's a lot we are doing. Now you will be seeing campaigns online as we speak just opening up the temple on that. There's a lot that we are doing to try and get people to behave in the correct way but as always it's always a moving target. So we are doing all we can and we are hoping to have more ideas as well. Thank you very much for such comprehensive answers. This is a final comment. I would like to say it is really good to see that the figures for total waste are going down and that's a very good sign. So thank you for mentioning that and I haven't mentioned it earlier but I'm very pleased to note that. Thank you. Thank you. And absolutely I wanted to point that out that the total waste is reducing which is a real significant improvement. But I also wanted to support Bode because actually one of the things that I believe is the case and do correct me if I'm wrong is that of course because composting waste is so heavy and wet it represents a very high proportion of the weight and so the actual percentage that is all the other kinds of waste is a relatively smaller percentage of the weight. So I'm just wondering if yes we know these figures are affected seasonally but also we know that there's this huge influence of composting waste which is good that people are sending it for composting but it affects our data. Bode is nodding in agreement I think rather than providing an answer is that okay? Yes. And I agree with councillor by now. I was going to say councillor by now I think you're getting a nod of agreement rather than an answer. That's great. Thank you Bode. And you are nodding as well. I know not my last one. Councillor Fair Park. Yes just quickly you wanted to comment on the council tax collection rates and guess I wanted to congratulate Peter Maddick and his team on being joined top collection rate in the country. I think it's very important that that's a high rate so that we can continue to provide high quality services and not only that, I guess it's also collection rates for councillor, fire authority and parish councils as well. So yeah well done to the team. Councillor Smith or Peter Maddick any or just a nod? Well it's brilliant. It's absolutely brilliant. And you know with a cost of living crisis when actually it was not unreasonable to expect it to go down and the fact that we've maintained our collection rates is nothing short of extraordinary. I'm all credit to the Peter and his team. Okay. Fantastic. Thank you. Great. Councillor Heather Williams you are currently the last on the list but you never know. I think it would be a quick answer. And I hope a positive answer from the leader. Just to say there's been talk about learning best practice but can we have reassurance that regardless of who's in control of the council if they've got a good idea then it will be looked at. Yes. There we are. That is the shortest answer. Excellent. Usually when I am sharing I wait to be added to my bit at the end but I wish to point out because I hope that on two separate occasions you literally ask the questions that were in my head to ask. I'm not sure whether or not you'll take that as a compliment. It might be something concerning. It is currently 1927. I suggest that we say we're taking a three minute break. We will definitely be restarting at 7.35 which is seven minutes. 7.35 to restart everyone. Thank you very much. Loud enough. Thank you very much everyone. We are restarting at 7.35 now that my microphone is turned on and we are moving on to the second part of the KPIs which is section B which relates to the business plan and after kindly accepting being deferred earlier on we shall go immediately to Councillor Ellington for our first question. Thank you. I go back to page 43 ladies and gentlemen and it's number 5C and it's the third one down which says we will work with partners to influence improved links between villages in the north of the district to existing transport routes e.g. the guided bus and it says it's green but I have to tell you that before when the bus service was running before Covid the bus went through the village to over from Swayvesey and then round to Longstanton and Barhill and back again one hour and the next hour it went in the other direction so it went from Barhill to Longstanton to over to Swayvesey that meant that people registered for the doctor's surgery in over could get on the bus go and have their appointment and come back within an hour it now takes over three hours to do the same journey because the bus goes in the same circle only it doesn't do it every hour it does it every two hours so it gets to be a very elongated thing and I I have not seen a bus go through the village with anybody on it for weeks and weeks and weeks because it runs at the wrong time in the wrong direction and is not being coordinated or serving the people that would use it most I shall shut up and hope that somebody will pick that up and run with it because it really is important sorry I thought you had finished, I apologise thank you so I have every sympathy with what you say Councillor Ellington and actually at the moment I had a pound for every hour I spent talking about buses I'd be quite wealthy so what this says is work with partners so that's what the green refers to the working with partners if we were not participating with the GCP if we were not participating with the combined authority and the work they're doing on an enhanced bus partnership and bus franchising then that wouldn't be green but we are slogging our guts out on this to work with partners and influence to improve links between the villages so Councillor John Williams has been leading on this because he's an expert in public transport and I think he spent all of yesterday dealing with this he'd done copious amounts in fact he got called into an emergency meeting at four o'clock which I set up because we were so unhappy about some of the proposals for the routes that were being paid for by the mayoral precept and we thought that it was going to leave some South Cambridge communities which currently have a bus service of sorts high and dry so he very kindly dropped everything in order to be in a very detailed meeting at four o'clock yesterday so it's green because we are working really really hard on it it's not a measure of the success because actually that's not it's not in our control it's not in our gift you know what all we can do is influence and that we are trying very hard to do just while going back to Councillor Allington is there anything additional that you would advise Councillor Allington that she can do for her residents in relation to the concerns that she raises about the bus through Swaybysig yes absolutely so if you would write to the mayor about any particular issues copy and me please copy and Councillor John Williams as well so in most of the combined authority board meetings we get people coming asking public questions they are always or nearly always about buses and we get a lot of people turning up with questions particularly from East Cambridgeshire and Fenland asking very specific questions if you come along to one of our meetings and ask a question about that specific route then do because the mayor is kind of all about buses so he needs to know he needs to know all about buses including ours but if you don't want to rock up to one of the meetings to ask a public question you could ask myself or John Williams to do it for you Councillor Allington thank you I just feel it is such a waste and surely all they have to do is look at how many passengers use the bus and how many passengers used to use the bus before they changed the routes and work out that they're doing something wrong it's not past the wit of man so we're talking about commercial bus services here and they will have that data and they will be changing the routes because they will be cost effective for them to run them and this is what we have to constantly say to our communities it is a use it or lose it because no commercial company is going to be running empty buses now if we end up with franchising albeit it might be quite like weight franchising that does give the combined authority some element of control but the amount of money the amount of public subsidy is of millions and that money has to come from somewhere and now that it's not coming from the STZ I'm not entirely sure where it's coming from I just feel that the buses currently are being run to show that they are a waste of space so that somebody can say let's cancel and that really greased me I don't use the bus but the buses go by that are absolutely empty drives me mad Your point is well made and well heard Councillor Thank you I was just going to ask if I might make a comment on this topic You may make a comment and then ask your question Thank you very much so I've had a similar issue with buses in Oxford and in Falmere what I would like to say on this is that as local representatives even though the district council has relatively little influence on all this we do have a substantial amount of soft power in being able to try and get these buses re-routed and I would say from experience in Falmere when there were issues with the commercial service run by stagecoach when it was run by stagecoach then the local parish council and I got together with stagecoach and we got the route changed and since then there have been issues with the subsidised bus service and along with the county counciller I've been in discussion with the officers at the CPCA and routes have been jiggled in order to try and make them more useful and better used so I think there is a lot that we can do but it requires very local input and so I think actually the onus is on us with our local knowledge and on the parish councils to get involved and to try and tailor the system to make it as effective as possible. Thank you and now your question. Sorry that I put my hand up in order to make that comment. Oh okay so problem at all. That's fine. Councillor Heather Williams. Thank you chair. Just on the public speaking for my questions I did actually submit online speaking and it wasn't The CPCA and it wasn't anything, it was actually for neonatal leave policy and never got anything filled in the form didn't get a thing and I know three other people that that's happening too so actually leader if you could raise the fact that it's not coming through because it might have shot yourself I wasn't going for a completely political motivation I thought Mayor Dalton might be interested in doing a neonatal leave policy so I didn't even put anything controversial I don't think in the subject to warrant a disappearance of it or just heard absolutely nothing. Thank you. So that aside I've got a couple of questions one of which is around the securing to page 51 8A romanural 1 that's securing the bronze status of carbon literary organisation and I'm just wondering how many members of staff that involved training because I did look it up and I think it's quite clear that everybody here is committed to and we always have sort of cross party committed to greening projects and the like so that's not the issue but it is very expensive the memberships of the carbon literary organisation I was a bit shocked when I looked it up and saw how much it was particularly with the training so I'm just wondering to get to bronze status how much was it and what benefits have we had I appreciate you get an accreditation so you can put something on the website but other than that what tangible benefits have we had from it in order to make it worth the cost so that was the first one noticing 15% of the workforce that actually would be quite expensive not to mention it's £3,000 just to be registered each year plus that so that's my first question I have one other question chair but happy to take them in turn if that is your question First question now Thank you very much I'm not the figures but I'm sure Bode probably does have if I may bring him in but you know getting these certifications are really important to make sure in order to ensure that we as an organisation have the skills and the knowledge to deliver on our priorities so I think that's what this is about but if I may ask Bode to come in with some detail on the cost if he has it at his fingertips Thank you Councillor Smith and through you I don't have details of the cost to hand but it was a one-time cost for so the way this works is it's trained the trainer so our colleagues in the climate environment team got trained by the organisation and then we are now the ones conducted the training internally so there's no other ongoing cost to us but also the benefit of this is a lot more than just our colleagues being literate what it means is that we are empowering them to do a lot more at home and also at work and we talk from green to our core that we encourage colleagues core of the project and we are seeing projects being brought forward now that can continue to help us to green the environment so it's a one-time cost which is already incurred more than two years ago and it's trained the trainer so all the ongoing costs now are just colleagues cost there's no external trainer involved anymore Thank you and that's because when you look at the course for our size it does say it's £1,000 for the first course £500 for subsequent courses and obviously if that was doing for multiple members of staff it starts to build up and that's called to their website along with the £1,500 plus for EAT just for bronze and it goes up so we paid to train up one of our staff so that member of staff now trains our staff so the carbon literature organisation is not training our staff they trained one of our staff to be a trainer I'm just talking about because there are annual renewals to keep the accreditation and these are the costs I'm referring to leader so it's just whether it's worth the financial and what sort of balance has been done if we've had the training what benefits are there because these things are great and they look great but we don't want a badge collecting then we need to make sure that we're getting value for money at those subscriptions that's all it was and whether some more information on that would be beneficial Would I be fair to say that in the sense of Councillor Smith and that he have provided some answer to that initially in terms of where Councillor Smith talked about the value of it and then obviously you've come back on that Thank you chair so this one is on page 53 the last section currently in purple and in the top paragraph it refers to the four day week and the report the Robertson and Cooper staff survey and it says that results were overwhelmingly positive now I had a look through some of the points that were in that and I'm just wondering scrutinising that in that report it said that 35% of people agreed that during the trial their stress levels increased which 59% of those people said it had increased strong it's already agreed that it increased and adversely impacted them so that's the first one the second one was that 28% of people said that they consistently worked more than the 80% of the contracted hours per week and I think there has been some reflection of that in the fact that the officers are now going to be expected to do 32 hours rather than the 30 and I appreciate the parity with Waste Cruise but given those two there are other elements of the report given those two quite striking things 35% felt more stressed increased levels of stress and that's on page 78 of that report is the leader comfortable that it's overwhelmingly positive I appreciate you can say that it's had some benefits in some areas and the arguments have been put before but overwhelmingly positive when people have actually worked more hours than they're meant to and we've become more stressed Councillor Smith so that was the initial three month trial which then led to a 12 month trial so the whole point of a trial is to identify what the challenges are and whether they can be overcome so we have adapted throughout it so there will be coming fairly soon a new health and well being survey so that's the up to date data so you're referring to the initial trial where everything was very new to people so I found it stressful then I don't find it stressful now but we need to just refer back to what was the driver for embarking on a four day week trial and the driver was the recruitment and retention crisis that this council and the majority of other councils in the country are facing and therefore the results on that were overwhelmingly positive and I'm very happy with that wording because if we hadn't had sufficient level of confidence after that initial three month trial we would not then embarked on the 12 month trial now we now have we've now got 15 months worth of data which is being independently analysed we have redone the health and well being survey we had various heat tests during the course of the survey so we monitored it very very carefully to make sure that there'd been no significant downturn where anything that particularly needs to be addressed which would merit the cessation of the trial so I think there's absolutely no point whatsoever in harping back to what is now quite historic or very historic data our focus needs to be on the independent analysis of the data that is due soon and the new I think also independently collated health and well being survey that's going to be coming before us in a matter of weeks yes okay thank you that was a lot Williams thank you and through yourself chair obviously not really harping on scrutinising the document in front of me and also I'll just read that sentence again because I think actually what the leader is happy with overwhelming positive about the trial that's not quite what's implied here to give suggestions because it says data from the Robertson Cooper staff survey what I referenced was also increased report and showed the results were overwhelming so it's saying that the Robertson Cooper staff survey that showed officers working more hours and a significant percentage becoming more stressed were overwhelmingly positive no the leader is saying that as something on balance bringing in other factors then there may wish to be some rewording because as it as it stands I don't feel personally that actually that conveys what the leader has orally conveyed to us tonight chair council Smith council just to think your mic I think you've got reason that this is scored purple is that the trials completed so that's this is a this is a record of us bucking on a trial and then and then completing it so that's why this is scored purple I mean I've been given the dashboard that you're referring to but actually I didn't this scrutiny meeting is looking is looking at well I mean is it really looking into the historic historic detail is your your unhappiness is with the word overwhelming there's a value judgment there my value judgment is that's a perfectly appropriate word I would in no sense we can carry on the discussion here I suppose in answer to the question I think you're asking there council Smith in terms of looking into the data obviously the screening committee has been presented with the report and in the report here for this item on page 53 in the first paragraph as councillor Williams has referenced it does refer to but it does refer to that so therefore within the narrative report that has been written it has referenced back to early in the trial I would suggest that you are entirely correct to say that the use of the word overwhelming is a judgment it is a judgment that has been made and is what has been presented in the report to the committee my take on it is that councillor Williams is suggesting that she would like you to consider whether or not the word overwhelming is the most appropriate word you have come back and said that you believe that based on the information that is there you believe it is it is clear that councillor Williams doesn't agree and thinks the word overwhelming is incorrect you have said that you think it is valid I would argue that that is screening performing its function I don't think councillor Williams can expect you to agree with her challenge automatically in the same way I don't think that you can say that councillor Williams should not refer to it I think we have both but for all our views and there is a disagreement and I am sure councillor Smith as you have done on a number of occasions during the evening you have acknowledged the fact that councillor Williams has challenged and will obviously reflect upon that a likely outcome of the reflection is that you will carry on using the word is that a fair summation of where we are oh thank you yes councillor Williams is that a fair summation of what we are entitled to speak to yourself as well thank you chair in part my suggestion was actually based on the overall answer that was given there was more into it as to why it wasn't just that report and staff well-being the recruitment and other things which led to a balanced view of overwhelming positive that's how I interpreted what I was saying and I was just saying if that is the case because I read that report that specific report was overwhelming positive and I've just highlighted how there were a couple of errors it wasn't so I was just saying that the I would scrutinise this document suggest that looking again at that paragraph and making it clear what is being referred to when making that which is the leader's choice it's not about whether being comfortable or not overwhelming positive I'm just saying it seemed about a kilter would be more in line with what the leader already said to us this evening okay thank you if you wish to come back again that's fine so the reason I have the position I have is that on the staff dashboard for 2022 the rating for good days at work was 3.95 out of 5 for 23 it was 4.4 4.40 so we are seeing what I judged to be a significant improvement to the point where actually most people are experiencing all their days or nearly all their days being good days at work from a position where that wasn't the case so as far as that's concerned that to be overwhelmingly positive okay I thank the audience, I won't give you the opportunity to come again if you wish to otherwise I'm going to go to Councillor Bradlund who wished to add something to this before moving on to the next question to Councillor Williams thank you chair just to say that's fine I was just scrutinising the document and giving the opportunity but equally going to you for those stats I mean because 4.4 when you're working for we're back to stats here so you need to be really careful it's quite hard to have 4.4 good days when you're only working for it it was out of fire, it was out of fire it was a comparable day to it but I'm sure people really enjoy the day when they're not working okay Councillor Bradlund thank you chair I just wanted to remind us that at 1B this measure is about the impact of the initial four day week trial so it was that three month period when we were assessing how the initial period after we've done the three months of planning we set in place the three month trial and it's looking at that period and as Councillor Heather Williams has said to us at that time during that period 35% said that stress levels increased during the trial that meant that 65% didn't similarly that Councillor Heather Williams has said that 28% said that they worked more than the 30 hours of the week but that meant that three quarters didn't so I just think we need to be careful about how this data is being looked at and in employment and staffing committee what I was aware of was that in that early phase yes there were some concerns but people continued and as time went on they have become more confident and it's become a very successful exercise in terms of staff morale certainly in the last report that we had that employment and staffing it showed very positive results we'll see how it works out at the end of the day and we've got KPIs that we have kept through the whole process so that we don't skew any readings which were agreed right at the beginning and we've kept the same ones all the way through so we can make a fair comparison at the end of the trial but those early days of change and new working processes of course cause some concern but my impression is that this has moved on from the trial and it's a really positive thing but I'm not prejudging the outcome of the trial that's just my impression from the data that I have seen for that contribution I am going to come back to you again Councillor William simply because you could ask the question before I move on and close out the question it is your right to speak last Thank you chair and I have been actually very careful in my phrasing this evening to not give opinion but scrutinise the data and scrutinise the report so may I suggest that if people want us to use more up to date information as a report she includes that because we are here to scrutinise I think if you look back although we have different views this part is for scrutinising and that is what I've done and Councillor Bradlin the information that you referred to I realise I've now somehow become under scrutiny for using data statistics but I use the data from the report that was referenced in the report as it's just been if you don't want that report is in a counciller's name give me something different to look at next time Yes Thank you I was acknowledging the data that you quoted Councillor Williams and noting that there's an inverse to those percentages as well and that's fine you've made a good point giving the inverse of the percentages Thank you I am going to allow Councillor Smith to comment as well in the interest of its own balance should you wish to do so I am having a shape at the head I am therefore closing down that question until somebody decides to ask it again if I think it's time Councillor Leaming I genuinely hope Councillor Leaming you are going to ask something not about the four day week simply so that we can move on You will be very happy to hear that this is an eagle-eyed comment Councillor Smith When the business plan came to scrutiny I made a request that the CAMB125 project will be included as a KPI in the report I think it was going to be in the modern and caring council section but unfortunately it isn't there so I would like to make a request that it is included in future reports please I can only apologise Sorry This is quarter four It will be in quarter one Excellent Thank you very much So we will be there Thank you I am very pleased to hear that it will be on its way Excellent I do have you down next for something different I assume Excellent Thank you chair I wanted to bring our attention to page 40 Sorry, it's a bit hard to read 45 which is objective two We will work with the city council water industry and stakeholders to address water scarcity in the greater Cambridge area and I am very glad that we have got this as an objective and I note in the narrative the government commitment and the number of papers that have been issued and I just wanted to ask for an update It states we are continuing to work with partners to support the delivery of these measures and I just wondered whether there was any update on this that could inform this narrative and maybe we could have an explanation as to why this is still amber because I suspect it is not something that we are not doing I suspect it is because we are awaiting information from the government Thank you Thank you That is a very big question and I don't think I can give it the detail that is required I think we need to talk to Stephen Kelly about exactly where we are This is fast moving You will be aware that even against the recommendations of the environment agency the new cancer hospital was approved We still haven't got final decision on born airfield and Darwin green which has been held up by water but a considerable amount of workers is underway and actually this is where our engagement with government over Michael Gove's plans are actually working in our favour because I am sure the Secretary of State is aware that not one house will be built never mind 150,000 houses if there is no more water so we have got considerable attention and considerable expertise at this but I will say it is too big a question for this meeting so if we may take it away quite happy to have some answer in some other way I think can you just leave it with us about how best to update the whole membership and at what point is the right point to do that because there needs to be consultation with Stephen Kelly about that Thank you Yes, I will go back to the room That was the breakdown Thank you very much OK I believe that is it So therefore based on our questions in relation to the KPIs thank you very much colleagues as ever the KPIs to a huge degree generated a huge amount of questions and it is always great to see councillors scrutinising the information to the greatest level of degree and making sure that in part of residence there is a lot of clarity and picture in there So therefore the specific instruction relation to that said we are being asked to review the KPIs results and comments, and to appendix A to progress against business plan action to the appendix B I am content to say I believe we have completed that Feedback to officers were appropriate and the actions required to address aspects of the report Again there have been lots of little bits which Ian has put down as notes and I am sure that colleagues in terms of both cabinet members and officers have noted down things that have been agreed and will be reviewed and looked at and thought about and make recommendations to cabinet were appropriate and where they have value to the process So I identify the one of the end there where councillor Smith has said that she would like to have some time to think about that further We talked about the issues obviously related to the KPI on average absence days which clearly we explored in great length and depth and width and height and whatever other word we might like to use and we obviously have a commitment there for that information to be further put forward So therefore I would suggest that we have completed that and it will come out very clearly in the minutes I have nothing to identify specifically beyond the things that I have said So therefore I would like agreement by affirmation that we have completed that point and everyone is happy with where we go with it I agree, fantastic, thank you very much Which brings us on to item 7 which is the work programme We are being asked to note the work programme for upcoming meetings subject to changes as the situation demands If any committee or other non-executive members would like to see something discussed at these meetings with the chair or with Ian in the first instance and will advise you about the next steps and practical time scales given the need for officers to prepare reports and times to be allocated to the work programme Therefore unless anybody wishes to suggest anything immediately that they would like to see on a future scrutiny agenda Nope That brings this meeting to a close at 10 past 8 Let's schedule a meeting on the scrutiny in the overview committee at 5.30pm when Councillor Cohn will be back in the chair Thank you very much for your time and once again my apologies for arriving late and delaying the meeting Thank you very much to my excellent, can-born colleague for stepping in at the start and taking the notes Thank you very much if one meeting is closed