 Ac weithio? Yna'n ddiwedd, wedi bod Cres Llanbrianol yma. Cymru, jask Members. Eftan, dyma dechreuwch. Mae'n cael ei sydd i chi, mae'n blaid fel oedd. Mae'n地chreu bethau. Fe oeddwn i'n gwlad amchydig, fe fyddwyd yn cyfle. Fe fe fyddwyd i'r cyfras. Ond wedi gŵr ychydig wedi bod gyda fe. Mae'n golygu i Christ. Ac mae'n gwybodaeth bod hwnna, gyda hynny i ddechrau hyn, i be fyddaeth yn golygu. Dwi'n credu hynny, fe ddiw. mae'n gofyn i gael i'n gwybod, mae rôl i'n ni, dros gallwch bod ganddo 35 o ail, oed yn ymweld i'n ddefnyddio. Un o'r ddda, ar yw 29 oce, rôl wasb i gyd yn y ddoldrygiad, roedd yn ymweld i gyd yn ysgrifftol i ddweudio. Ond mae'nhowbol i gyd yn unigりol, roeddwn yn cyd-frathio'n rhaid. Rwyf am yma i gyd, nad ydynt yn ysgrifftol o'r syniadau, rwyf am â'i gael. yng Nghymru, a byddaeth gyda'r gynhyrch. Mae'r ddwynghau. Yn ystod o'r ddwynghau, yw'r ddwynghau. Mae'r 15 yw yn y prydyn. Mae'r ddwynghau, mae'n ddwynghau. Mae'n ddwynghau, mae'n ddwynghau. Mae'r ddwynghau. Mae'n ddwynghau. Mae'r ddwynghau, mae'n gwybod ddim yn ei ddwynghau, mae'n ddwynghau. Mae'r gwybod fyddion bryd, Yn ymddi'r gweithio, mae'r amser yn ymddiol iawn. Ond yw'r gweithio yma, i ddweud yma, dyma'r ddweud y maen nhw, sy'n meddwl i'r cyfnod, a'r cyfnod i'r ddweud, yna mae'n gwneud. Yn ymddi'r ddweud? Yn ymddi'r ddweud. Yn ymddi'r ddweud, yn ymddi'r ddweud yn ddweud, ac mae'n ddweud yn ddweud. Ond rwy'n deall, yna yma'n ddweud. clearer heaki, he is a barber and a good one at that. and my other son works in the office, so, you know I'm only one of them got into trouble. he's one of these kids you could tell him across the road here, here across it there, but he learnt his lesson, you know he needed a spelling inside to pull him together and is clean you understand what I mean. and sometimes that happens, yn ychwanegwch i'r lleol o'r blaen a'r blaen? Beth angen i'r llyfr o'r bod hi'n mynd i'w gweithio, ond yw'r prim erbyn y gallwn hynny, rwy'n gweithio'n cyffredig ar y dyfodol, rydyn ni'n gweithio'n gweithio. Felly wrth gyd, ysty'n gyffredig, Chris? Ymddangos ni'n gweithio? Rydyn ni'n gweithio i'r llwysgau, rydyn ni'n gweithio, rydyn ni'n gweithio'i gynhyrch, a yna'r cwrddion yn ychwanegwch. ddim yn 1938. Fy enw i'n 80 ym 80. Felly, dwi'n 80. Felly, dwi'n 80. Mae gennym ni'n fawr. Mae'n gweithio'n 80, byddwn i'r hyn. Mae'n moll ym mwy o'r rhain. Gweithio, mae'n ddechrau, ychydig, oedd yn ddiwedd. Mae'n tryn nhw'n cael ei gwaith. Mae'n ddim yn gwneud. Mae'n gweithio i fynd i fynd. Mae'n gweithio'n gweithio i fynd. Mae'n gweithio i fynd i fynd. volcanoes. You reach out, help somebody. It gives you... you draw a life from that, you draw strength from that, seeing somebody else get up off the pavement and march on. How is your upbringing then Chris as a young lad? My mum was a firm Catholic and that's how I was brought up, very much in the Catholic faith. But we moved from one area to another to another, I mean, I came home from school one day and a'r rhwf yn bwrdd yn gwneud. Gawdd y bwm yw'r bwm yn ystyrwch yn gwneud cyd-dyn nhw'n gwybod yn fwy o'r gwaith yn ymweld. Cyfnodd o'r London. Yn Gweithlundau. Cyfnodd o'r Gweithlundau cyd-dyn nhw'n gwybod yn ym7 o fynd. Ddyf yn gweithio'r gwasanaeth ym 15 o fwy o'r gwasanaeth yn Victoria. Gweithlo'n gweithio'r gwasanaeth a ddw i'r gwasanaeth yn ym 5 o fwy o'r gwaith yn ym 10 o fwy o'r gyfan. i gael arian ymmyniadau ac yn ychydigrwyddm yn ffordd erbyn. Ie, mae'r sgwrdd wedi gwneud o gael ffodol sydd wedi gwneud. A er mwynfyn o'r gwybodaeth, mae wedi y gallwn gynch. A'r leoli terma'n, mae ddim, mae'r greu cyfrif yw'r myfyrdd eich phanol. A oed yn gweinio ceisio. Rwyf wasio enghreifft. Rydw i, rydw i'n cael o enghreifft. Rydw i'n cyfrifft. Rydw i'n ceisio greifft. a dweud gweithio'r Gweithio. Mae'n rhan o ganwethaf, maen nhw wedi bod wedi gefnwyr y rhan a oswn yn egg Scotland yma? Dwi wedi wrongio'r ddechrau i wenhaf ac yna rhan o'r eisoed. Felly, mae'n gwneud yma. Mae eu rhan o'r wrthigau. Moed ddych chi'n gwneud ymddiffydd a ymddugel iddyn nhw. Fuddai'r gweithio. Mae'n gwneud yma. Mae'n gwneud hyn sy'n gweld y wneud o'i ar y bodysbreak, ond mae'n gwneud yma. Mae'n gwneud yma. yn gweithio. Mae'r ffordd wedi cael y ffeirwyr yn y cydweithio. A mae', philosifiaeth yna, wedi ei bod wedi wneud fy modd ac yn ei gael y ffordd yn cydweithio, mae'n gweithio'n cydweithio'n cydweithio ac wedi gweld o'n cael yr hyn yw'r cydweithio gyda'i. Mae'n cael wyf ddweud ymhygrifwyr yn cydweithio, ond mae'n cy wiswn ddiweddar, fan 15 o wneud, mae nid yn fawr i wneud mewn fe was there every other week. But not only for me, for my brother Tony and my brother Nicky. Cos it wasn't two of us went away for the craze thing. Three of us did. Cos they wanted to wipe the family out. We chose to be with the craze. We chose to be with the craze because we had no choice. The craze didn't make no threats or anything else like that to us to stay quiet. The fact was they was already nicked. If we'd have chose to go the other way, we could have gone the other way quite easy. But we didn't. I'll tell you what happened. I had been part of the group, part of the system. Prue schools, bore stores, detention centres, prison, part of the philosophy. You don't round your mates and they don't do it to you. There were many times I did things and people never dropped me in it. And I certainly wouldn't have dropped anybody in it. Whether it was the smallest guy on the block or the biggest, they were the same to me. And that's what kept our mouth shut. You'd never got in the dock and pointed your finger at anybody. That was the philosophy of the underworld. I never put myself in any position today. I would have to do that. Do you follow what I'm saying? I don't have to do it. So I don't have to break the philosophy. I can stay true to myself. But things have changed now. There's no respect anymore. There's no hope for anybody. But back in the day, there was a more respectable... But the thing was, we started out. It's... Now every kid who's naughty has got a different kind of name you can give it and everything else like that. It's labelled. They didn't do it with us, they just flung us in in institutions. How did you think the institutions were when you were younger? Going to Bosto, going to prisons, do you think? It made you worse, it made you rebellious against that life, torture? It gave you no hope of a straight life. You were there with other people who were the same. They came from everywhere in England. We never ever got chucked out of anywhere. We were made welcome because our friends were there. The friends we'd done, Bosto, detention centre, prison, approved school. They were all over the country. What kind of crimes were you doing at the start in your early teens? Start of Nick in Lead. That's what I got approved school for. Breaking and entering. I got done for, I got a Bosto for. And then I did safe blowing. I got prison for. Long-firm fraud. You name it, I got to meet everybody. Because I was sound, I could move up a level anytime. Because people trusted you? People trusted me, yeah. We got a bit of work down here. Right, Chris, we need somebody to come with us. A driver, or you're out on a pavement doing a waste snatch and stuff like that. So it was violent. But it was what we did. We didn't beat anybody up, you know, severely. They were always going to recover from whatever we did. And maybe you can't justify it. Maybe it was wrong. But I didn't see myself at any opportunity. In my world you could either be a footballer, a boxer or a criminal. That was my world, show me. So in East London you become a product to your environment but you think it's normal? I did think that, yeah. How did that affect your dad, though, being a working class man trying to be the perfect citizen? My dad had his own community. He mixed with his own people. People from Cyprus and Greece and everywhere else. But anybody was welcome into it. Black, Italian, German, French. Everybody was welcome into their world and treated equally. Because they all felt, to some degree, that they'd been pushed out. You understand what I mean? Now it's a different world. You've got a foreign name. Everybody's got a foreign name. Everybody's got a foreign relation. Whether you're black, green, yellow... ..the first person, there weren't a lot of black people around. But I went over to the dog track at Arrigade Dog Track. My dad was going to go and get his money. And a black guy came up and asked him where he got the money for his ticket. And my dad called him brother. I'd never heard anybody call anybody brother. And I admired that. You understand what I mean? Now everybody calls each other brother. You understand? How are you doing, brother? But you had respect for everybody? He had respect for everybody, yeah. So when did you start getting involved in the serious stuff? The serious stuff. And that came about. I met people, good people. And I was on the run. And I finished up in Birmingham. And I first of all got on the Liverpool. And Liverpool wasn't really somewhere where I saw much opportunity of earning money. And then I dropped down to Birmingham. And I got to meet some people down there. And I got offered a job on the doors. So I was working there on the door. Then other things came along. And so I got to meet quite a few people. And one day a friend of mine is a Jewish guy. He had a row with some people. And I stepped in and helped him. And we became very good friends. And he had a pair at the old Bailey. And I went there to see the trial. And afterwards went down to the cells to see him. And his mother was down there. And I didn't know what was going to happen. He went, Chris, he said, I want you to take this jewellery. And I went, why? And he said, Pam, I knew exactly what he wanted me to do was take all his jewellery and give it to his wife or to his girlfriend. And his mother said, what do you want to give him the jewellery for? You know, it belongs to the family. And I want Chris to have it. And I took it when I left and gave it to his girlfriend who was waiting in a cafe. And so, you know, he introduced me to different people. Then I met other people and say expanded. And I then met other top criminals who I don't like to name and got involved with them in different things. Long Firm Fraud, which I'm starting a company up. And then doing a runner, you know, all in everything from everywhere. And you've got solid bank accounts. But all of a sudden, the bank accounts are only there to prepare for the runner. You're setting up businesses? Yeah, that's right. Ordering lots of stuff and then closing it down? Yeah, closing down. And then from there, I got in a gambling. And I knew who was running gambling. And it wasn't drinking clubs or anything else that anybody was interested in. It was gambling. It just started off, but it was big money in it. And Birmingham, the car industry, just taken off there in a massive way. So everybody had money, lots of money. And it was twice as good as London, the club scene and everything else. So, I mean, I was living off the top. And I got to meet all these different people that had problems at their club. I'd go and sort the problem out. And, you know, I'd be on like, it won't protect your money as such. You would just look in after the club and they appreciated what you were doing. And they give you the reddies. Did you have a reputation then? Yeah, I did. Yeah, but I didn't mess about. You understand what I'm saying. Did you become a professional gambler? I did become a professional gambler. And what was your kingdom of gambling? Because, well, I'd play cards, poker. I'd do the roulette wheels and things like that. And half of it, we could get to the group ears. You understand what I'm saying? So you've had, like, cheating, basically, a certain thing to do with one? Yeah, we could do all sorts. Fuck, they say the house always wins a stone. So the craze got to hear about me. And they said, I'd gone down to meet a guy. To buy some American dollars. And he turned round and didn't turn up. So I'm standing at a bus stop because my car's in the garage being repaired. And a guy called Ronnie Bender came by. Well, I knew. Good guy. And he went, Chris, what are you doing here? I said, I'm waiting for a bus. He said, come on, I'll give you a lift. Did he give me a lift home? So I got talking about it. He was next soldier, a regular army and all that kind of thing. Really good guy. And, well, I went home at a cup of tea, knock on the door. And I went in the door, it's Ronnie Bender. And he said, Chris, he said, the twins want to meet her. I went, Ronnie, do you need a few quid? You can have a few quid, I don't want to meet them. Because they weren't very well liked by the underworld. That's the truth. Because people, when they got older money, they'd read in the paper, somebody had just had it off. Snatch, bank robbery or whatever. They'd go straight in and want their corner. So really, they were called these ponces. Taxing people? Yeah, that's right. And people got Adam there. So when I'm saying to Ronnie Bender, I don't want to be involved in my world really. But he said to me, your brother Tony's down there. I didn't know Tony was on their firm. So because I lived in Birmingham. I came down every two weeks, saw my dad, and then went back to Birmingham, stayed the night and that. Anyway, Tony went down there and they were polite. I never ever see him get, you know, brutal with anybody or want to hurt anybody. They were always perfect gentlemen. And they said, Chris, we understand like you're in Birmingham. You've got some stuff going. Wonder if you'd help us out. So I said, ow. They said, we're opening a club in Leicester. Would you be interested, bring some people over? So I said, yeah, I think I can do that. So I went away from there and went to the, what's the name of the club? I had a look around. It was nice, Gath. So I had to take people over there. People who spend money. And they were doing rather well. But then Charlie Craig said to me, we were good pals. He said, Chris, he said, don't tell them. He said, but we're getting in. He said, because they'll want it before we've even got it. Because they could spend money like water. And that was the way they were. And so anyway, the fact was that one day we're at a party. And Billy O's nephew was another good pal on my Mickey Riley. They started on Mickey because they thought he knew and he was telling me to keep my mouth shut. But he wasn't. It was their own brother was saying to me, Chris, tell them nothing because they'll want it before we got it. Anyway, everything was going well. I had a car pitch up there. I had my own car wash. I had all this kind of stuff going on. I was earning a lot of money. And a mate of mine, Ray Mills, said to me, Chris, he said, I'm going down to London at the weekend. Do you want to come with me? And I said, well, what do you mean, come with me? He said, well, you can meet my brother, Alan, and I'll meet your brother Tony. And I went, no, I was down there last week. Another time we'd do this, right? And he went, please, just let's have this. Someone told me, I'll come on. I was going against your better judgement. I should have gone with my intuition. But I didn't. I went down there. We met in Lyon House. We went from Lyon House to a place called D-Marquess of Cornwallis on the Bethnal Green Road. And Mrs. Cray, old Charlie Cray, the twins Charlie and all them were there. Went in, we had a drink. It was an occasion for the old lady. It could have been her birthday. So we spent some time there, pay our respects, come out and we go to the Queen's pub on the Hackney Road. We haven't got a drink there. So by this time we're kind of well tanked up. So Tony said to me, look, Chris, let's go to the Regency. I said, look, I don't want to go to the Regency. I want to go to the West End, the best seller, because plenty of birds down there. Let's go there. And he went, no, let's just go to the Regency. They've never been there. Let's show them what it's like. And we went there and we're having a drink and Jack the Hat comes up to me and he said, there's a party. He said, are you going? I said, well, first I've heard about it. And the next thing I know is I'll get an invite to this party. So it must be about half past 12 now. So my car was chock-a-blocked in. There was no way you could get out. But Jack's car was able to go in his car. We got in his car and we got in the Regency Club. Sorry, every road, which is maybe two or three streets away. We got in there, gone up to the door. Their cousin Ronnie Hart opened the door. And we go in, go down the stairs and Jack is in front of us. He runs straight into the room. Where's the birds? Where's the pie? And then an argument starts. Regie Kay pulls a shooter out, which he's admitted in his book he did, and it didn't work. I thought it was a frightener. But I didn't like what was going on. Because this shouldn't be happening. You understand what I mean? So I turned round to a guy called Connie Wyatt. I said, Connie, I don't want to miss some guy. And he went, Ronnie Craig came out. I said, what's the matter with Chris? He said he wants to go. He wants no part. And Ronnie said, take him home. So Connie Wyatt had dropped me off home. I'm sitting there with my dad. I'm having a cup of coffee. And I think Tony's there. And I've always been very careful about Tony. Protective. Protective. From a small baby, you know, up to an adult. So I had a shooter there, 38. I went and got it, put it in my pocket. And got a taxi down to the Regency. I went to the car. I went to every road. I went up, knocked to the door. And Ronnie Bender came up. I said, Ron, is Tony there? He went, no Chris. He said, he's gone. And I went to turn away. And he said, Chris, he said, please don't leave me. I went, what do you mean, Lee? He said they've killed him. I said, no. Not in front of all them people. He said, he's dead. He's downstairs. I went, Ronnie, I don't want no part of this. He went, please, he said, don't leave me. And I looked to him. And I thought, you're a guy who's been in the army. Straight guy. I said, where are they? Where's the twins? He said they've run away. And I thought, they may have run away, but I'm not going to, I'm going to help you. You understand? And I went inside, went downstairs. And there was a body laying on the floor. And I thought, you know, when you walk down there, there's no noise on anything. I thought it's going to stand up in a minute. It's going to be all right. I wanted it to get back on his feet. Do you understand? I wanted it not to have happened. And I looked to it. You've got to face the reality of what has happened. I went outside and got some socks that were in a washing basket. In the kitchen, brought them in. I gave Ronnie a pair. I put them on. And we began to tidy the place up. So now, I'm walking up the stairs. I knew she'd come back, but a woman called Blonde Carol. And she said, hello Chrissie, how are you? I said, I'm all right. I said, you can't go downstairs. I said there's been a little bit of an argy bargy. I said, we're having a tidy up. But I've got a bucket full of water and blood in my hand. And she saw it. And now I know she saw it because she gave evidence to the fact. So I've already been up to the bedroom previous to that and got an idea down which is downstairs. We wrapped Jack up in it. I went upstairs again because facing the house on a side street was a bagel place, which is Jewish, like roll things. And all the cab drivers in them days were Jewish, most of them anyway. And they were all, they're going all through the night. So we got to find a place where there's no traffic about to get that body out and get it in the boot. So finally there's a break and we try to get the body in the boot. Six foot man, you can't get him in the boot. So we put him in a back seat. Then we go back inside. We have a tidy up. And I said to Ronnie Bender, I said, look, Ron, you're going to drive the car. And he went, because I'm not driving that car. Not with that body in. I said, well, do you think Tony's doing it? He ain't. Because Tony, by that time, had come back. Because he's gone home and my dad had turned around and told him, I've gone looking for him. Anyway, the thing that happened was Tony stepped forward and said, I'll drive it. I went, Tony, are you crazy? He went, no, I'll drive it. So Ronnie Bender and I got into my car. Tony got into the car with Jack Manhattan. And we followed him down to Mayor Street. But going down to Mayor Street, a police car dropped in behind Tony. Now I am now worried that then police are going to stop Tony. And if they do, I've got to shoot them. You understand what I'm saying? If they've got a gun on you? I've got a gun on me, yeah. So if I say that there's a comedy of errors, there's a tragedy of errors, a man goes down to a party. There's 16 people there. They kill him in front of them, 16 people. But apparently, because the gun didn't work, his cousin, Ronnie Hart, when he got a knife from the kitchen and put it into his hand, Ronnie Hart went up the old bay, he turned Queen's evidence, didn't do a day. And had a reputation or a criminal past as long as anybody else. He was as guilty as Reggie Craig for what he did. Can you spell it, sir? He didn't do a day. So anyway, what happened then was, we, driving along, they turn off the police and we carry on, we go through a rubberised tunnel, we lose Tony. Driving around, I finally found him outside of church. The car had run out of petrol. And, or he said so. So on the pavement by the car, it's confettious everywhere. And the thing was that I thought he'd be safe. The people would be going to church in the morning, they'd see the body in the car, and they'd call the police. And we'd taken out of East London, put it in South London. So they'd think whatever happened happened over that side of the water. That was the plan. We leave there, Ronnie Bender goes, drop him off. We don't know what he's going to do. He goes and sees Charlie Craig, tells the twins, the twins involve somebody else to move the body, and it is a bloody nightmare. That's exactly what happened. So then, you know, we carry on as normal. I go round the Mills brothers and other people and tell them, keep calm, you understand, it's all covered over. Things are going to be okay. Things are going to be okay. I know that the firm is crumbling. I was never part of it, but, you know, it was crumbling. They were all backbiting each other and all the rest of it. And so, they started nicking people, and they nicked the twins, and they put them in jail. So I know they ain't going to say nothing about me. So I feel fairly confident that me not being associated with them, living in Birmingham, I'm safe. But I think to myself, well, I'm going to go abroad. So I talked to a mate of my Johnny Hunt, and Johnny said, yeah, we'll leave tomorrow. And we were all set to go, but he'd been messing about, and his wife got angry and all the rest of it, and he said, Chris, I can't go. Not with her the way she is. So that stranded me. So I went about my business as normal. The police arrested me in Walsall. I was living in a hotel there and brought me down to London and talked to me, talked me to a place called Tintasio House on the embankment. They talked to me, said, we don't want to arrest you. We know you had nothing to do with this. Tell us about it. And I said, I can't tell you that. I don't know what you're talking about. Party? What party? There's never any party. Anyway, give me a, what's the name? His card, if I read. And he said, look, there's my number. Give me a call, and we can sort all this out. Neither you nor any of your family would do any time. I'll give you my word. Anyway, I left there. What I did was made a stupid mistake. I thought I'd go and mark Violet's card, the twins mum. So she'd be up visiting them and tell them what happened. But there's this mother looking at me and saying, please, Chris, don't tell me. Go and tell him. Please, I'm asking you. They're my boys. Everybody's deserted and please go and talk to them. And it was like listening to my own mum. This was a mother making a plea to me. I don't know. I'd let my own mother down so many times. I wasn't going to let this one down, no. So I'll go to Brixton with her and a girl called Carol, Regis' girlfriend. And I saw myself in his Mickey Mouse thinking I'm being clever. Yeah, being funny. Anyway, I'll go in and Charlie Cray looks at me as if I say, Chris, you shouldn't be here. This is the last place you should be. But Regis and I were like, yeah, Chris, great to see you. You're looking well. My husband's going and all the rest of it. So I said, look, be careful. I just went to a place called Tintagio House yesterday. They've got photographs of everybody on the board there. Names and people marked off and all the rest of it. There's something very serious going down here. I told you that's the best I can do. Chris, great. Thank you very much. Keeps them. I said, don't have to tell me. Keeps them. I'll see you later. Anyway, left the visiting room. Drove home with Mrs Cray. Drop them Carol. Drop them off at Bunhill Road and then went away and was living life as normal. And about two weeks later, the police came up to Birmingham, shoot it up and everything. Took me on the bus name at the elbow room as I'm coming down the elbow room and brought me back down to London. So I said to one of the cop, was what you're nicking me for? And he went fucking Virgin's out of season. Well that's what happened. I was in the police inspector's house because I knew his son and him and I had pulled a couple of birds and we'd gone back there and I thought that's what they were nicking me for. But apparently that was definitely not what they were nicking me for. So I took me back down to London, Tintagio House, Everly escorted going there and Nippa Reed turns around and says well he said he was in Brixton a couple of weeks ago, wasn't he? What were you doing there? I said went up to see the twins. After seeing me I said yeah. He said do you want to talk to me? I said no. I got nothing to say to you. I said there was no party. I don't know what you're talking about but I could see him he was getting angry and he was playing with a gun and he ran round the table and smashed me over the head with it and I said is that what you do? Is that what you do? This is Nippa Reed, the top man the top policeman who nicks the craze. I know that he wants me to react and I'm thinking if I don't react he ain't got nothing. He's so frustrated he's banged me with that gun to get a reaction and I'm not going to give him it. So anyway I could see him getting angrier and angrier and he turned round to inspector Cater and he went charging. Cater went charging he said yeah with murder he wants to be with a craze we'll make sure he goes down with a craze and that's exactly what happened Jamie. So listening to that story it's your loyalty that's got you in that position your loyalty to your brother your loyalty to the guy Ronnie who was at the door to get rid of the body the loyalty of the craze because the mum says got to prison that whole thing looking back you must be kicking yourself that I should have listened to my own self instead of your loyalty. I didn't do it it wasn't the cries no you understand what I mean I could have done. So why did they charge you to try to get you to turn queens because they've already got them. Because the people they had were problematic they were so involved in the murder I was the only one that weren't involved in the murder. So if you never went back your brother wasn't there anyway your brother went back to look for you. Why did you Ronnie not just leave the house and not just leave the body? Well with Blancarrow upstairs with two children Was she in the house? She came back remember I told you about the bucket of blood and she gave evidence she saw me the bucket of blood. So after when you got told that you were charged with murder how was your feeling then? My feelings were well they've got no evidence the people actually giving evidence will have nothing who are they going to get to turn against the Greys? I couldn't believe anybody would. Did the careers try to put it on anybody to take the blame? No I'll give them that they never did that although rumor had it they did it with big Albert Donoghue and people like that but no it never occurred to me that that would happen in. So anyway we finish up at Bow Street Magistrates Court and I think I'm the only one there but then I heard somebody speaking and called out Tony and I recognised the voice of Ronnie Benders so they've got Tony they've got Ronnie Bender and me that's not just coincidence they have got something firm which puts us all in certain places you understand what I'm saying so whoever they've got if somebody was there that night and my first thoughts are the two young guys who are there it's probably them who said what they've seen and everything else like that I never expect you know to our water so anyway we stand up and then I look in the dock and all of a sudden I see Freddie Foreman I've never met him before I thought what's he doing here well apparently he was the one that the twins told there's a dead body on your manor and they brought him in to move it which he's admitted in his books and everything else so it's a total catastrophe you've got two guys one doesn't take his medication apparently and the other one's deeply in grief and is on speed and everything else and drink an argument starts and it escalates to about involving 16 people getting people involved from here, from there to here running out on Ronnie Bender Freddie Foreman is now involved their brother Charlie's involved you want to tell me these guys were top gangsters you couldn't make it up it's just not I'm telling you this story what's your thoughts? I'm just thinking that because people are really that tough if they turn queens if they can't face reality and be a man and admit what they've done nobody wants to admit what they've done of course but the whole ripple effect of that situation first of all somebody's lost their life second of all it's the people involved it's also going to affect yourself your father, your brothers my wife, my baby so how long were you involved with the craze for before this incident for less than I'd say maybe 12 months and it totally transformed your life yeah you had a great life in Birmingham obviously but you're doing the gambling scene how are you doing the gambling, how are you winning your money because I told you we actually we had the crew payers on our side yeah so that you could one and relate yeah that's right you could bring professionals so obviously the craze got wind of that they wanted a piece of the pie they contacted you so anyone who was making money the craze went to them they never tried to put it on you they invited you in because they were all gluts and glam as well the name was so big people they wanted it anyway but you didn't you wanted it because of your brother yeah that's right so obviously when the case it didn't hurt me to do them a good turn you understand what I mean they'd appreciated me doing them a good turn by bringing people over to the gambling club they were going to earn money out of it because on any gambling table there's a little slot in the middle it all finishes down there anyway you understand they take a percentage of each game so they never lose and that's where the money was the money wasn't in people standing around drinking, pulling birds and being social the money was in the gambling and they knew that and gambling had just taken off in this country so it was like the old Wild West really so a wild story but the day you got it you got it no so now we go and we have to wait to go to the old Bailey are you thinking you're going to get away with it I don't think I'm going to get away with it I do think that but it doesn't make any difference you understand what I'm saying I'm not going to get in that dock and put my finger at anybody Tony's not going to do it and Ronnie Bender's not going to do it we're not that kind of men you understand what I mean no the deals have been put on the table by Nippa Reid prior to us or what's the name in or we could have sent a message to him look we're interested in doing a deal we never spoke to him because you thought you were getting off no it wasn't that it didn't matter what happened we were not going to point the finger at anybody Jamie you understand what I mean it wasn't what we did Ronnie Bender didn't do it Tony didn't do it and I didn't do it we never got in the dock and pointed our finger and said this, that and the other because a lot of people did Tom Queens how many people did Tom Queens well a whole lot literally the whole gang you understand me most of their firm who'd been with him a long time he had to take the Mitchell murder another one that he had to take the Cornell murder and all that kind of there's no excuses for that especially in a life of crime and that's for anybody watching or listening that goes to show you that the biggest and strongest firm in the UK at that point they all turned against each other and that shows you the caliber and mentality of people they just wanted to get out you understand what I mean they hadn't come up and we'd come up I had come up through proof school bore stool, detention prison and everything else I could walk in any institution and I'd know somebody there I didn't see myself crime was what I knew crime was what I did you understand what I'm saying no matter what it was I was going to be involved until I got enough to get out how close were you as well to harboring enough money to getting out in Birmingham I could have seen myself maybe in about four or five years being quite a rich person where were you going to go to I would like to have been a mate of mine Johnny Hunt who had a place called the Ponderosa and I took Charlie Croy over there Mickey Riley they couldn't get there you could land a helicopter on the roof no up in there where the train robbers and all that cars and all that went for sale there's a big car placed there auction and it was quite near there it was in the country but then I'd also want to go to Cyprus because my dad kept telling me about my beautiful country and I said daddy it was so beautiful what are you doing over here but the trouble is you couldn't earn any money over there so they came to England you understand what I mean not to benefits there were no benefits they come to earn a living in what they knew there were chefs there were workers when London was being bombed they sent us out of London and we went to a place called Ibstock and my father was working for the RAF fixing planes and things like that and I actually went and sat in spitfires and stuff like that it was wonderful but then we moved back down to London again so there was a lot of up evil in my life I was robbing trains when I was nine with other kids there'd be trains with stuff in the sidings and we'd get in there and we'd find everything cigarettes to everything so at that life for a very young age involved in a life of crime no matter what crime it is something will always come back and bite your ass so even the Jack the Hat murder you never did it but it's just the whole the whole effect of your life it's going to eventually something's going to come on top so what was it like in the old Bailey what was the procedure then was we'd all been charged with murder there was an argument made that I had committed no murder and therefore should not be charged with murder I should be charged with accessory after the facts Tony didn't take no part in the murder Ronnie Bender didn't take no part in the murder all the main perpetrators was the craze and their cousin do you understand any other people the mills brothers and all him and the mills brothers turned turns QE but how can I put it there were two guys totally innocent went out for a drink and there's a murder takes place come on you understand what I'm saying I understood it I understood it but the thing was how can I put it they so many people could have got badly hurt could have got majorly hurt so when they stood up in the dock I could understand them I didn't like what they were doing but it wasn't them that killed us do you know the person that killed us what they did they put two murder trials together so unjust we should have been tried separately you go out with Ronnie Cray to a pub and a guy gets killed in there Ronnie Cray shoots him in there George Cornell I don't know you I never even knew you at the time I didn't even know the craze at the time you don't know me and I go to a party and a man dies you don't know all the people here sitting in the dock you weren't part of it or anything else like that just like we weren't part of yours but they joined the two murder trials together so by hook or by crook they were going down you understand there should have been two murder trials they joined the two and they got a girl who had denied a statement and everything else like that and made a false statement she got in the dock at the old bay and she was the barmaid of the blind beggar when Ronnie Cray shot George Cornell it was like listening to an angel speak you could not doubt one word she was saying she was very believable it was coming from her deepest inside the things she was saying and I knew then at that moment she was like why should a man be so high profile why kill a man with lots of people was that the route they were going just went ruthless and didn't care it was only a matter of time but they didn't care about their people either so why should their people have cared about them was everyone getting used who were involved with the case and in fact I think at some stage that there was a plan going round to do them in because they went too wild they went too wild and it could affect parts possibly and that night when I got the gun and I went back to that house I went back there with murder in my mind because if they had hurt Tony do you think going back to that party where Jack the Ham is murdered and you getting that gun that's the cow decrees yeah I could have done yeah I just I would have had to do it he's my brother you understand what I'm saying I would have had to do it Jamie where does your loyalty come from then Chris your loyalty to willing to kill another man for your family willing to stand trial not point fingers where does that come from that came from my background just came through the system through the racism brings you tighter in do you not understand a lot of black kids and all that kind of kids from all over the place why they get together because they're not rejected by each other there's a fierce bond of loyalty and they die for each other yeah because all they've got all they've got so when you get caught I want to belong that's all I ever really wanted to do was to belong if the if I'd have been accepted into that party and then left the Greek kid outside I might have entered another world do you think you may be a abandonment issues there where you wanted some point to love you and show you acceptance and then I had a girlfriend Patsie Emmins who came and visited me in a proof school and everything else I loved her pieces I did I bought her little gifts to marry her and to be happy forever but her mum and dad said no she lived next door to the Che family and I broke me up the rejection when she turned around and said my mum and dad said I can't see you anymore do you think that was a catalyst for you just to go for it part of it there's a whole many chapters to people's psychological the trauma and the pain it has a whole rollercoaster effect and then when you go into prison you've got this vast sentence of 15 years which is unjust but then you think about all the bad stuff you've done in your life and you think well I'm paying for that on this trial I should have been doing 10 years do you follow what I'm saying for accessory after the fact I should never have been done for murder but I was guilty as hell of accessory after the fact I helped to move the body I helped to clear the flat I didn't have to but I did so you're still part of it but you were willing to accept that I'll accept that so the first part of my sentence I'm doing time for that you understand what I mean I'm doing time for things but only I know I've done I wish I'd happily to admit I wish I'm happy to admit you understand what I'm saying so I hold my hand up to it and that's my time I didn't deserve to do 15 years I didn't deserve to have murder wrapped around my neck because I'd never intended to murder anyone apart from one person it didn't happen he was lucky with four bullets in him he survived and he said to Tony he went to Regency club and he said Tony club over here and Tony said why he said because I want to show you and Tony showed out to some people and they went downstairs to the toilet went in there and the guy lifted his shirt up and he said do you know what they are Tony but yeah they're bullet wounds didn't they said your brother did that to me he said you're bloody lucky isn't ya who was this this guy anyway the thing was the guy turned around and said I deserved it I took a liberty well I went to a certain place with a girlfriend of mine and he was there and he'd come running out with a firm and I weren't expecting that a knife up to my throat and he was quite capable of putting it in there and he said to me don't come round here ever again stay away she's with me he said because if you come round here you're going to get this and I thought well don't provoke him or anything else like that keep it calm I said well I'm not arguing with you over your girlfriend which was my girlfriend but I'm not arguing with you over your girlfriend you told me that so anyway I'm getting out of it slowly and finally I'll go with a word like don't come back he made a big mistake he went to my house where my wife and my child was and started asking questions about where I was and all the rest of it I thought I can't take this anymore he's gone round my house and that's a threat he's threatening my family so I went over got the 38 out I went over there and the firm came running out the door big night he said I told you I said yeah I'm telling you now bom bom and they all died for cover ran inside the house and I just ran out of bullets many bullets was in the gun 6 2 or 5 often 4 went into him and that was it so see when you got your your 15 stretch how was your feelings towards the craze then my feelings towards the craze I thought they developed us out these guys didn't do nothing you understand what I'm saying nothing nothing they didn't do nothing but they put us in jail with Ronnie I was in jail with Ronnie Cray up in Durham Ewing with a few of the faces and the pill was coming up so I said Ronnie I said give us help on this appeal no no no I said we can't you know I said Ronnie you've got helpers on appeal I said we've stood in a dock with you for the longest trial in criminal history you're not getting out they are not going to let you out well we can do this I said you couldn't do it then you couldn't do it now so yeah there was a bit of anger there bit on this so obviously going through all your lives through robberies, murder trials shooting people you turned to Christ seven years seven years I was in jail you've got to be in there to understand it and you look at the people you've hurt I'm going to ask you a dead straight question you've got a wife out there and you've got a young baby 18 months old you called her Angela because she reminded you of an angel angel you've got what you want or part of what you want and you throw it all away for what two learners text what would you have done yeah what you all going through caught at the team you've got to just accept at the face of the team and then try and get out do you know what I mean Jamie you've got a wife out there you've got a child out there you've got a life out there what would you have done if I was at court and if I could turn Queens I would have done the sentence you'd have done the sentence there ain't that many who would there ain't that many who would I sat in a jail and there were people in there calling me a lunatic it's so easy to say you would yeah of course because you're not in that position you understand what I mean being involved in that life of crime is only something arise that's why no necessarily you did the crime but you did other crimes prior to that which you never get caught for so for me involved in that you've got to accept it you've got to be a man if you're me you do what I did you understand what I'm saying if you've got money tucked away your message is there with the kid you're thinking fuck them I don't know them nothing they've got me in this situation so it's not anything about them you've just said you don't know them nothing but it's the greater the greater good you understand and that life understand it's not the greater good but deep inside it's for you because if you came out in your mind you know you'd have had to live with your head down instead of up and money can't pay for that and it's easy for me sitting here I've never experienced that but you understand it because you've explained it but most people can't get their head around it they think well you cared more about them it was not caring about them they didn't count you understand what I'm saying it was more about not pointing the finger at anybody you understand standing at a dock and going it was it because everything you've done in the past just goes to shit it wasted everything you understand me so I'm halfway through the sentence I'm looking back I can't find nothing I'm looking forward I've got no hope I'm doing life I don't know when I'm ever going to get out if I'm ever going to get out and this day it came down on me and this guy down below me was playing this song on a record player because you could haven in the jail and it was called knocking on Evan's door by a great great song is that an auto boot my take this gun off of me I can't use it anymore it's getting dark too dark to see I'm knocking on Evan's door because he'd had enough of the killing he'd had enough of everything it didn't see nothing just darkness and the rage is coming down on me my blood is boiling one minute and I'm cold as ice the next if a screw walks through that door I'm going to kill him I'm going to justify me doing a life sentence but then something says to me Chris you can't think like this get your head together and start thinking sensibly so I've got underneath the bed and a good friend of mine from Scotland called Stuart Brown he always used to say to me Chris he said he heard me talking to this guy one day he said you can't teach a pig to play the violin it won't like you it won't thank you and it will probably turn around and attack you and he was dead right you can't teach a pig to play the violin and there's a lot of pigs around I'll tell you that now he was spotting Stuart he was a great guy he was a philosopher he told me things about different places he'd gone he was into the rave networks and stuff like that music van Morrison Pink Floyd Chris you've got to listen to this what's that Pink Floyd dark side of the moon me I was like Johnny Ray Frank Sinatra blew my mind the dark side of the moon is absolutely Al was his name Al Stuart Year of the cat was it all stories of our life that were very poignant and very much gripture you understand about generals sending men to die and they sat in the back and took the credit you understand how wonderful they were what about the man who died in the trench wasn't he like me left a wife and children what about money it's corrupted buys everything everything there's bigger thieves in parliament there's bigger killers in parliament and I'm telling you the truth there is they send people to war do they care how many people die everything has a repercussion the ripples go out and it affects so many people it affects generations of children it affects wives it affects fathers mothers uncle's aunts James he's a fuck up you understand what I mean it's an allusion it's a total allusion when did you start looking into all that then so this night it starts before that I'd kind of read stuff I've gone through comparative religions and everything Sufism which Stuart told me a lot about so before the seven years how was your respect and the prison obviously being involved with the crays not sticking anyone in you must have had a lot of respect you did the discreuse treat you well they treated me well but I messed up and what I did in Albany prison they sent me there and they took everything off us and we were treated like normal prisoners and where we're doing fantastic big time and I became very good friends with a guy called Freddy Sanson his cousin was a Terry Sanson he played for Arsenal but he was the gamest man I've ever met and one night down there the doors were banging down the block because him and I had got chucked down the block over the screws were beating him up and I jumped in and helped him and they carried me down the block and they didn't do nothing to me but in the morning Freddy came out of his cell and for a bucket of piss over him and they really beat him up and there was another guy called Ray Powell next to him and he did the same and I thought I'm the last one on the block what do I do here I can stay behind the door and keep out of this or I'm going to do the same as what they have done you know what I did tell me what I did did you know threw the pot of piss over him got bloody bad really bad believe me and I'm still fighting and everything else I'm black and blue and next morning I got up to the window and Ray Powell was there and I said Ray you alright and he went yeah and you could put your mirror out the window and you could see if he had a mirror the next cell I looked and I said Ray you've had a hell of a battering son and he said have you seen yourself and I hadn't looked in the mirror I didn't want to I knew what I looked like which was shocking so next morning the screw comes round chief and he goes get to your feet he said the gun is there I said bollock send them in and finish it off really that's how I felt Jamie you can't do it unless you've already done come on to finish it off and the governor came in he went my god what's happened here I said you know what's happened here he said no I don't he said but you're going straight to Parkhurst Hospital where you can be taken care of and they got an ambulance round but I insisted upon walking to the ambulance because I didn't want the screws thinking that you know they had me over and I walked by everyone in the screws and battled and covered him piss and shit I'm walking and I'm looking at everyone of them as I'm walking by thinking you know I had nothing to lose if they did me again so well was that breaking point for you then that was part of it then I go to the hospital and the queen surgeon was a part-time doctor in the hospital where he lived on the Isle of Wight and he came in and he went I think you've lost the sight in that eye I've got two massive black eyes I think your jaws broke and kicked my teeth in anyway I was over in Parkhurst for around about three weeks and then sent me back to Albany and I saw one of the screws that did it to me and I ran after him and he ran inside and looked at the door and within an hour I was out of there and he sent me out to Hull so that was part of of life but that night when it all came crashing down Stuart Brown before he left he gave me a box of books and I was looking for all the books and I found a Bible and it was a chapter away I've never read one the only time I've had one is if I ripped a page out and rolled a cigarette in it because it's very thin paper so that's what I've done it for but anyway I was slinging all these books everywhere and finally I went no I was just nothing going to do it here end it and then I picked the Bible up and I thought great people have read this book and have climbed mountains and done wonderful things they've died for it got burned at the stake and everything else I've been crucified all for a book Do you think that resonated with you as well? I do yeah and I picked the book up and I tried to read some of Genesis where it starts off and it didn't do nothing so I put it under my pillow it's now about four o'clock in the morning and I thought well if some of them thoughts can go into my head maybe I can get over this it won't do anything so I've got the book and I'll put it there and I fell asleep and I knew I'd found something very very precious and I'll never let go of it I read it I went to London Bible College in prison I did the Bible College course I did all that and learnt an awful lot because there's something in there for everybody you understand if you read the book of Proverbs it's like a father talking to his son and giving advice then kids that haven't got a father read the book of Proverbs you have got a father and he's giving you advice and if you take it your life will be successful you won't look at failure you look at positivity and there's a book that stood the test of thousands of years and still stands strong there are people standing around and I stood on it and it got me through so that was the turning point were you at suicide at that point? I was at that time I was ready to go I had to beat the system I couldn't let the system beat me and I was about to end it that was going to be the end of it and I got over that so see when you were going through that transition and that change obviously your loyalty is live with everybody else around about you you concentrate on everybody else's life try to help everybody else but it's a case of fuck everybody else it's time to help me and you become more selfish towards yourself and realise you need to help you it was a gradual process I didn't look at anybody else I was looking at me I couldn't go out so I went in and I was getting rid of shit I didn't need I carried around for years prejudices and all the rest of it and then what happened was I looked out the window one day and I was great in the cell my head would be on the bible would be on my knees clean towel out with a book there it was a place of worship in my own space because it's not about church church is in your heart it's not the church it's a belief but I looked out the window this day and I saw all these guys going to church and I thought they've got the courage of their conviction they've got guts to actually go into that church and worship I haven't got that you're concerned that be surrounded before the biggest criminals in the UK how they were going to put through you so I started to play the percentage game Jesus you can have 10% and he said well I'm cool with 10% but then I thought I want a bit more so I'll give you 20% in this cell my time is yours out there I've got to be on my watch he said okay then 20% and then 30% and at 30% I looked out the window and saw all these guys going to church and there was one guy there called bulletproof Jack and I looked to bulletproof and I went he's got some guts there man anyway I went up to him and I said listen Jack I said tell me something did I see you going to church he said yeah I said why and he looked me right in the eyes because I believe and walked away I've never seen so much conviction in my life it's just like that I believe and walked away so few days went by and I got talking to him again I said what made you believe Jack he said I've been shot several times and I was laying in the hospital bed and I said Jesus if you're out there bring my father out to me he said he was the one man I didn't ever think I'd see again and what he did he said my father came to me he walked into the hospital bedroom looked at him and he said you're survived and walked out again but that's all he wanted he walked into the hospital bed room but that's all he wanted a sign and he got it and that was it and I met so many other guys there as well pretty much the same they weren't cruising religion to get out of prison they just found something in there in the quiet time the solitude locked up in the cell you can only read so many books about poor and old war gangsterism and all the rest of it it's what they find it's what they find you never see them in prison again the ones that played the game they go back they don't stay out 35 years you understand I think that's a great point to touch on that listen, change is scary but anybody can do it and it's to, I always believe and always say that the loudest men are the weakest if you actually sit down with criminals and break them all down they are vulnerable they are sensitive that is just a shield, that is their protection because they're so fragile they don't want to be hurt but it shows that no matter what you go through in life no matter if you're through it, somebody dark is in deep as shit you can find something within you can find redemption and let go of it and you can find satisfaction and hope hope is the main thing look at this place here I worked here it was like the whole Bailey where I was sentenced and I pleaded with somebody a judge to give them a chance and they've gone away and deliberated and come back and said we've heard what you've said and we're in agreement with you that if this person goes back to the lay community instead of prison there's hope that his life might change we're prepared to give him that chance thank you very much that's a judge saying that to me and they wouldn't listen to me in that building at one time I had my own car parking space down there your own bed didn't have a bed but I had my own car parking space because London was so expensive so I got in touch with a probation service who arranged for me to have a what's the name down there car park because otherwise I'd be bringing people later that's a great thing because now you've got the respect and a whole different angle but not only that, not only materialism not cars, money but I have a helping someone else is the greatest gift in the world am I sitting here in a gangster suit no I'm not I'm sitting here but I got up this morning to go on a boat ride with my wife and then I got a telephone call from you Joan I've been pestering you for weeks Chris and now we're here we've done it and I appreciate that in this place we're in just now can you explain what you do in here because not anymore I do, but what we do we raise money I get all my old friends, people I know and we have they'll do a thing where they do auctions and other things but what is this place then we're in just now this place is called the Lake Amunee long term rehabilitation centre crack cocaine, heroin, drink everything but the funds are running low on this the funds have run totally low so we'll leave a link for people to check it out and hopefully people can get involved because this place has helped save hundreds and hundreds of places the lives this place has saved and the people that work here don't work here for money they work here because they're devoted to change and many ex-residents who've survived and come through all this and have been brave enough to want to come back and help others I think people who do go to the depths and the darkness of life when you come out of it you want to give something, you're gifted you've got to lift others up and there's nothing like helping somebody who likely have a day I've gone into Bambri to to look for a second-hand shop I love second-hand shops you never know what you're going to find and you go in there and items are a pound, two, three quid and I used to say to the kids here the second-hand shops why do you want to design a shirt somebody's already tried it on before you so second-hand, come with me I'll take you to where you can build your designer clothes and you're going to be paying three or four quid and they loved it because when you ain't got bundles of money you might do with the best you can so anyway I went along to the second-hand shop and I've gone to the pound shop and there's a guy laying on the floor playing a guitar and I went in and I bought a pack of a ginster pie for a pound I bought two bottles of lemonade for a pound I bought a sandwich for a pound and I put it all in a carrier bag and I went up and I gave it to him and he snatched it out of my hand and I bought one ginster pie for myself and he had that as well I said hold on that's mine I said all yours is in the bag you've got one in the bag and the look of thank you that he gave me it was only a five quid gesture it weren't the end of the world it didn't break me but the look of thanks he didn't want beer he just wanted something to eat you could look in his face and see that but I had such a good feeling after that and I'm not telling you this to make me not a charitable man no there's always somebody a kind word a lift up when somebody's on the floor you understand buy somebody a little present the only team you should look down on someone or kids who ain't got nothing at all you can go to a car boot sale and get some toys there for a pound and give them toys they can play with give them a book to read if everything is cheap out there but we're also full of it now the mobile phone and we're going along somebody's been murdered next year somebody's dying I better take a photograph of that that's the world we live in and it's scary when you came out then Chris how was your life then you've written three books which will leave the links on the bottom of this bio for people to look into anyway your three books how was that when you wrote there it was called Meditations of a Lifer and what I did I gave it to a group called Prison Christian Fellowship it does sell on eBay for around about 40, 90, 50 bound because it's out of print and what happened was I was in a a gartery prison no, a culdynny prison and I don't know I was praying this voices I made I said Chris don't say these prayers write them down and every day I wrote a meditation down and during the course of that meditation about the 25th day the one person I didn't want to lose ever in my life died my dad and I never thought I could ever handle it but I went out into a garden where I was a gardener I worked in the garden at the time on my own and I looked up at the sky and the trees and I thought well Lord you made the trees coming up to autumn they're all going to be bare you know I just I just know that you're going to do something with my dad he's not going to die he's going to be like that tree he's going to bear fruit again and he's bore fruit in my life I'm more my dad than I ever was Chris Lombriano you know went away and so during the course of this meditations my dad dies it helps me get through it it helps me understand it it gives me devotion the bible gives me a a way to handle it because God says to Abraham bring Isaac up the hill up the mountain prepare an altar and lay him on it and I want you to sacrifice Abraham and then everything will be right it's testing Abraham's faith so Isaac's laying there and he's got a knife and if God wants him to do it he'll do it but God says no I don't want you to do that Isaac take him off the altar he doesn't belong there so I'll figure if we can build a mountain if we can build a mountain sorry an altar on a mountain I'm going to take my dad up there mentally but in a way physically because I'm going to carry him up there you believe that? and I'm going to lay him on that altar and I'm going to say I can't deal with this but I'm going to hand him to you and I know you can take care of him and love him and give him the peace he never had down there he wanted to be a decent citizen make him a citizen of your kingdom Did he see a transition of change while he was still alive? He did, yeah and I'll tell you what but one day he said to me Jamie went, Chrissy said you broke my hand I said dad I'd never I would never break your hand he said you're in prison Tony's in prison Nicky's in prison I've got two fingers, my two sons Leo and Jimmy they brought Nicky down you know because he was involved with the crisis as well so he didn't ever have an easy life after that after we went down and that's just the way it is that's just the way it is it affects so many people's lives and I always talk about it on the show it's the ripple effect it just spirals down I believe the better person you become the better person you attract it's good, your second book what was that Chris? the second book was Do the Walls Come Down we all build walls around us and we don't let them down it's a protection for our family protection for our self and securities it's a one person at home but another person when we go out on the street no matter where we are so our securities build this wall and I felt by sharing what I'd written would bring the walls down and then the next book came out that was the Escape from the Cray Madness and then the next book was the book The Cray Madness which is the one out now I'll leave all the links and the bios would you like to finish up on anything Chris? yeah I'll say this there are years which are fruitful and the years which are barren I may have had some good times when I was back in the 60s and that and there were some good times but seeing children being born children being born finding somebody who loves you and you love them because it isn't about jumping in a bed every five minutes or kind of saying I love you it's about looking in the same direction finding somebody to believe in caring about that other person more than you care about yourself knowing that's real love when they take care of you and you take care of them that's the most beautiful love you'll ever find and if a lucky man finds out or a lucky woman they're blessed I understand what I'm saying because a lot of relationships are built on things on possession external stuff they're not built on love love's tough love's strong you've done break a two chord system and to work here at the lake community where so many people came and had their lives changed if you can't work with love a man called Khalil Gibran said better that you sit outside the gates of the temple and beg from those who do when I came in here every day I worked with love I worked with strength I had gods backing you understand what I mean didn't matter what I was going to face that day no matter high court judge probation, police I was in the right place I could stand up to anybody and hold my head up I think it's a great thing Chris the way you've changed you've helped others sometimes in life you might need to go through all the bad stuff all the pain, all the misery murder charges prison, the loss of your father to help you to have a turning point where you go fuck this enough's enough and then it changes you and then what happens is you come out of prison and then you help change others sometimes you might be brought on this planet just for that reason you may have saved hundreds and hundreds of lives just because you've sacrificed your own but you don't know I've given lectures at public schools Eaton Reeds, Cobham and Surrey Richard Branson Geoffrey Archer their children go there I've done Oxford Cambridge I've done it everywhere churches it got so I'll be honest with you Jamie it got so that how can I put it it all became about the craze it was not about change they wanted me because of the craze thing they didn't want me because you know yeah you changed but I did get it over to them and I've got letters to testimony and all that kind of thing and at the end of the day I kind of thought this isn't even about the craze anymore it's about me but as a gangster the message the message I would send out there is crime don't pay if you can help a youngster get out of problems get him off of drugs or her off of drugs you're breaking your mum and dad's hearts you're breaking your family's hearts the ripples are going out you've got to look at that you've got to look at the people you damage the people you crush they're standing there waiting to jump in and help and do whatever they can but you've got to go with a humble heart you can't go because most people who are in criminality and drugs and all that they're pointing their finger at everybody else they deflect it it's not them who's the problem it's them and part of growing up and part of development at whatever age it's about responsibly and you learnt the hard way but it's good to see you and coming on and coming on telling your story crush you're a good soul brother and all the best for the future John, it's been a pleasure making you my friend