 Hello and welcome back to the Donahue Group. We're glad you could be with us. It's a lovely hot summer day outside, kind of cool in the studio, at least for a little while. Welcome you back to our show where we talk over just events in the city, the county and the state, joining me today, Cal Potter, Tom Paneski and Ken Risto. We thought we'd talk a little bit about interesting events in the city. Excuse me. The police station continues to be with us. Someday, somewhere, there's going to be a police station, we assume. The current plan now, as I understand it, is to investigate five sites doing a public hearing. I think it's a good idea to have the public hearings, or has enough been said? What do you think? Well, I think the problem initially was that the park was taken without a lot of public support, and I think a public hearing is probably the epitome of a forum into which you plug in an idea and get the public sense. And I think it was a good idea to do it. I'm not so sure you want to do this on every decision the council has, but on this one, since we're going to eventually find finality, hopefully, out of this process in the near future, it's probably a good step to take. Yeah, I think so. Everybody involved. And from reading a couple of the articles, it looked like they were waiting to see if Sheridan was viable and then when it became viable, it went with Sheridan without doing any public kind of participation. We're at this now a little late, but it really helps. We don't believe in representative government anymore. I mean, everybody's going to have to have their crack at this, and so we're going to have hearings, and we're going to have people's inputs. I mean, that's just the sign of the times the culture we live in right now. I see where Tom Beard is going to have listening sessions about what he should do for the city budget, and I'm sure when we get through this budget prioritization process that Mayor Perez has been talking about, we're going to have meeting upon meeting. I know we can't make a decision to the Schmoyer County School District without 25 committee meetings, so why should city government be any different? Now, I'm sensing just a tiny hint of cynicism here, and my goodness gracious. Now, representative democracy, yes, but if there's a sense that the electorate has that it can't be heard, they're called elections, and they happen pretty frequently in Wisconsin. But probably not frequently enough, and I think on major issues, there's certainly nothing wrong with some public input, particularly if the folks have a sense that they're not being listened to. I think there's a spillover from the national scene as well. I think the numbers on the national scene are kind of interesting because George Bush won more handily than some people thought, but you look at his popularity, really, and the popularity of Congress. I mean, it's terrible. And I think some of it is that people are just simple saying the Shival case and revisiting the war issue and the expenditure they're on in light of health care needs and other things, educational expenses and things that other people are grappling with on a local level. People are very disenchanted with their representative government on the national level, and I think that cynicism then just trickles down to the state and local. Whether it's justifiable in all cases, there's a cynicism out there that the numbers on the national level indicate. It's very deep. I have a little different take. The reason, you know, the Bush administration, the Congress are willing to take on issues, and there's going to be multi-opinions on how one should proceed, and some issues get advanced one direction, one way, and people get upset with that. They think that's not the way we should be doing things, and so when you take on issues, you're going to offend people, and then it's going to be exploited. Well, let's get back just to the hearing business. My view is simply that people, I think, it takes a little bit even different than that, is I don't think people feel that Washington, for whatever reasons, are very, very responsive, and I don't think people feel that their voice matters much in Wisconsin, probably not even much in Madison much anymore, and so people, I think, want to have some control over their lives, some sense that their opinions matter, some sense that I can have some input into something, and at the end of the day, my view mattered in local government, whether it be the Shabuigan area school district, or their local school district, or their local city government is a place where people still can see one another, go eyeball to eyeball and talk, and I think there's a lot of appeal to that. And couldn't you also argue that that's at least one level of government where how much money you have doesn't really make much difference in terms of how you get heard. National parties aren't pouring tons of money into aldermanic races or mayoral races or whatever, and so people actually, I think, feel like, at least I can go to whatever public hearing, or even call my alderman, but go to a public hearing and I can at least be heard, and I think there's a cynicism about even going to Madison, you get a sense that there are public hearings and lots and lots of people come to testify, but the die has been cast, minds have already been made up, and that there really is no way to have any reasonable input, and in terms of election as a referendum, again, if the money is driving it and you don't have enough money to get rid of incumbents and we know that it's very difficult to oust an incumbent, I don't think elections are necessarily the referendum on our officials that you would hope they'd be. Clinton was brilliant at end-running Congress. I mean, he went right to the people, you know, these town hall meetings and so forth, and it worked well for him. People in town should avoid it when they were discussing the Walmart issue. Those concerned citizens were there, and the town's board listened, and they chose another course of action, and they still got elected, but the people got their input in, and they had an opportunity to express what they really thought. It's really kind of interesting what kinds of issues people get engaged in. The Walmart issue obviously is directly going to impact people's lives in lots of different ways, so you've got a lot of people showing up. I think the district had, the Shabuigan area school district had two, maybe three hearings on its budget, and I think maybe three people showed up, and in difference, or whether they're so happy we're running the budget the way we are is hard to say, but I know that we had conversations earlier a couple years ago about the standards which students were supposed to be proficient in here at the local level, and we had hearings, and I think five or six people showed up. So it's interesting to see that sometimes you have these hearings, you want all this input, and nobody comes, and then sometimes you think you've made a decision, which is pretty wise, based on the best facts. It's when you don't have the hearing, you effectively cut out anybody who wishes to speak, but when you provide it, if they choose not to come, they can't complain. Well, and Wolbatide, the political leader who misjudges the interest that the public is going to have on a particular issue, some budget hearings are mandated, county budget hearings, you know, you need to have X number of hearings and X number of places so the public is allowed to come and voice its opinion. I don't think the school district is required to, but by history it does and so forth. So those are kind of routine sorts of things and not hot button issues for people, but then you get other issues where you think, well, this will just, I mean, who cares that Sheridan Park, I mean, we're saving the taxpayers' money according to the people who voted for it. We don't need to get any input on that. And so if you misjudge those things, at least at the local level, I think that's where the election is, the place where the people can actually vote, you know, what their thoughts are. All that said and done, it'll be so interesting from my perspective to see where that police station ends up. It sounds like it's still going to be 23. But another interesting wrinkle. But you never know what happens at a public input. Right, and there's a referendum out there. Now, this is about the most quiet referendum. I saw it like in the third column of the newspaper article. There's a small group of people who have started a referendum petition about the question of the cost of the police station on the ballot. Do we want to spend $17 million on a police station? And my understanding is the debt limit will be structured so that the city will not exceed its imposed 3% debt limit, although it's, you know, bumped right up to the top there. But... I don't know how many signatures they got at this point, and it's supposed to be in what, by August 1st or something? If they don't have it by August 1, then it won't happen. Right, but I mean, that's awfully quiet. I mean, the various petitions that have been circulating around have been much noisier, but this one was pretty quiet. So it'll be interesting to see what if anything happens. Who's spearheading that? I don't know. Because I know. I wasn't aware of it. You got that police thing? Tom is our keeper of newspaper articles. He's an educator, so he highlights it yellow. I think it might be some of the Sheridan Park people. There was a gentleman that was listed on that little article on the police department. But I don't know what I did with it. But so it'll be interesting to see, because as much as we talk about the police station and where it's going to be located, then we're dealing with the reality of, I mean, now the cost is $17 million from $10 to $12 to $17 million. So it's expensive. And how much will that mean for the taxpayers and so forth? We haven't kind of crossed that next step. So it'll be interesting to see how that goes. What's going to happen if there's not a police liaison officer in the schools? Western Civilizational End, as we know it. That's a strong Robbie's statement. Are you going to arrange for your own protection? No. I've never felt unsafe over at South High School. That being said, we live in an age where you never know what's going to happen. Is it great? I should probably say when we talk about the district, I should do a disclaimer right away, is that this is my view and not the district's position. That's almost always the case. So I'm not speaking for the district. I'm sure I'll get a telephone call from somebody from the district saying, what are you doing? Expanding on these things. It's a good program. I think there's a certain amount of, people feel a certain amount of comfort level with an officer in the building if you have an officer there full time. But you're looking at budget prioritization processes and you're looking at having to make some tough decisions on the city budget. And so I'm not surprised that it's on the radar for possible cuts or elimination. An issue comes up as half funded by the city, half funded by the school system. You could argue, you could make a question, should it be totally funded by the school system? And they contract with the, I mean it's the same tax dollars, but should you keep the lines of demarcation clear that this is a school funded kind of activity? I still think it'll still be 50-50. But maybe the school system could raise some money through naming rights to help fund this. Because it does say some of the money that if they raise, they could use them funding some programs that might be earmarked for ending. Isn't that a sign of the times though when we start with naming stadiums, now we're going to translate into naming government programs after sponsors, government facilities. Well it could be an endowed chair, it would be an endowed police vest or a bulletproof vest or whatever. But I think it's been a pretty good program for the school district, but again it's costly. The paper said the cost is $375,000 a year and for protection, that is a concern. As a former school board member I can say that I remember hearing people talk about not necessarily so much the question of danger in the school as the officers being a good developing rapport with students and so forth. And typically at least as far as I can remember the officers do seem to do a good job of being your friendly police officer as opposed to the police officer that is not so friendly. So it'll be interesting to see how that turns out and what the district is going to do and will we in fact just call police into the school districts when we need a specific police function. Somebody is disorderly or there's a weapon or something like that. And so it'll be interesting to see how that's taken care of. Speaking of the police, I'm interested in your reaction to the press conference held by the district attorney and Chief Kirk of the Sheboygan Police Department regarding the Isaac Thomas complaint. It is my understanding that the... I'm not sure if it was the police and fire commission or just the police department which did its own internal investigation determined that there was no misconduct on the part of police officers regarding the incident where Mr. Thomas was pulled over. Now he's being charged, Isaac Thomas, with filing a false police report. Not a criminal charge but a class A misdemeanor which as I understand it is the... not misdemeanor, class A forfeiture which is the most serious forfeiture fine up to $10,000. What do you think? Chilling effect on people complaining against the police? Resolution of a difficult issue? What do you think? Well, when you have such a high profile case and you do find out somebody did indeed lie, I don't see how authorities can overlook that. I think it remains to be seen what the case evolves into and what all the details are but if somebody did indeed falsify a report I think people like the district attorney feel that they need to respond in some way. It's a negotiation tool. It's a negotiation tool. What's going to happen is probably... both sides will probably step away from the thing and walk away. A civil suit that'll be... I mean, when you start weighing a civil suit against the city on the part of the plaintiff and now the plaintiff is facing off this type of legal action, I imagine what's going to happen is both sides will probably decide not to roll the dice. I think that'll be my prediction here today. I'll only make one prediction today besides the end of Western civilization and that'll be that both sides will probably recognize that it's going to be a long, arduous process for both parties to try to figure out what actually happened out there in the street and ultimately, unless somebody comes forward with more information or witnesses to tilt the evidence one way or the other, I'm not quite sure how it's going to be. It's going to be he said, he said. He says when citizens interact with the police. One can understand that in its own internal investigation, which I think was quite thorough on the part of the police department, they determined from the police department's perspective that nothing improper happened. And yet, as those of us who spend too much time in the courtroom, there are always two sides to the story and it's always been my experience as a lawyer that except in the most cynical or unpleasant of situations, the both sides really think they're telling the truth. If I have a client who says, how can he lie when he says such a thing? When people get into those circumstances, they really do believe they're telling the truth. So the officer feels he's telling the truth. Mr. Thomas feels he's telling the truth. The concern is the next step, which is not only does the police report vindicate the police department, which I don't have a problem with, but then the next step is taken, which is this gentleman, when you've weighed the evidence and you've decided, no, there's no basis, but now we're going to go ahead and actually charge him. True, not with a crime, but with a fairly significant forfeiture action. It just was interesting to me that it was that next step that was taken. And I don't know what bargaining there's going to be. I don't know what this guy, Mr. Thomas, is going to do. Is he going to get a lawyer? Is he going to sue the city? You know, who knows? And it is one of those difficult, tricky situations from what I can just, as an outsider looking in, nobody will ever know what happened, except the people who are there, and they have two distinctly different versions of the story. So it's an interesting time for Sheboygan. I mean, this kind of actual complaint and investigation process, I think doesn't happen very much. And as compared to Milwaukee, the law enforcement agency has had its share in Madison. Frequently have there been complaints against the police department for abuse. I'm not in Sheboygan in particular. Well, it's interesting because the Sheboygan press has made that open records request of all the law enforcement agencies in the county asking for copies of all citizens' complaints against officers for the last five years. That's a huge task, as I understand it, because speaking now, most of the smaller law enforcement agencies have presented that material to the press, but the city has not, and I don't believe the sheriff's department has. I mean, it's a big job. Going back five years is, it takes a lot of time and effort. So probably the press is entitled to that information under the open records law of the state, but still, it's quite a task. At some point, if the press does push it, we'll find out how many complaints have been filed and what kind and what the disposition has been, and so that'll be interesting. But from my perspective, the press, there was some difficulty with the conclusions that they jumped to in that particular article for which they've now apologized a couple different times, but it's tricky stuff. And changing communities and neighborhoods, I think we have to learn how to deal with each other in a slightly different way than we used to. And we have to, I think, be more multidisciplinary too when the press got into the article on differential arrest rates for different minority groups. What you need to start bringing in is the whole issue of what groups are in poverty and what groups have higher crime rate because they're living in conditions that are not ideal. And those are type of things that have to be dragged in that oftentimes reporters just don't do that. And I think the press has, in fact, apologized pretty much for having made some straight-line conclusions for data that really is all over the place and is hard to determine. Well, let's just move on a little bit to naming rights. There's an editorial in the Sheboygan Press and selling the naming rights to public buildings is okay. University of Wisconsin Sheboygan has got several named... We could use some, we got, well... Named buildings, like in college. It's a final tradition, isn't it? Well, the University of Wisconsin Sheboygan, it was the first because we had a private donor donate money for the building of the science building, Bratz Building, Bratz Foundation. And we now have acuity as also... So after one, then comes another, and they're not just getting naming rights to the building. They're providing big chunks of money to the building of the building. And the state then provides the money for putting all the equipment into the building. So I don't have it, you know, I'm pleased that that's going on. I guess an article came up about the naming rights of when they were redoing Lambeau Field. They were, some people really objected to selling Curling Lambeau's name. You know, it should stay Lambeau Field. That's like changing the American flag sign. I mean, I... Sorry, things will not tamper with you. Some things you don't tamper with. So yeah, maybe that's the point. Some things you just can't tamper with. Others, there's no big issue. As long as there are private donors who support education or private donors who support certain things and they wish to make a contribution, I think it's a positive. Yeah, I guess I can't see... When we're in an atmosphere where support for public education, government support for public education is there's certainly no great leaps forward as far as that goes. It's looking for private support for this kind of thing. I don't know, to me it makes sense and I think it reflects the people who are important in the community. I mean, look at Lakeland College. I think every building is named for someone and certainly in the university tradition. That's a private school, versus a public school. Yeah, but I mean, University of Wisconsin-Madison, every building is named after, not every building, but many buildings are named after private donors. I happen to sit on the board of the Sheboygan Public Education Foundation just to make that disclosure but I can't get fired from that, I don't think. Nor can I. It's an enthusiastic group of community volunteers who have an entrepreneurial edge and so I think from my perspective, boy, the more the merrier as far as that goes. I don't see any really significant down side. I think there has to be some ground rules. I think it kind of all began with certain beverage companies putting up scoreboards and whether they then get an exclusive contract for the district when they sell beverages, soft drink beverages at their events, whether there can be then any competition. I think those are type of ethical questions that need to be spelled out because we appreciate gifts and community participation, but government's not in the business of granting monopolies. Exactly. And you had earlier on, I don't think these enterprises have been found to be that much successful. They were offering to put in closed circuit televisions throughout the schools and return for which the students would have to watch a syndicated television program. Of course there was going to be all sorts of commercials being thrown but I think that's distinctly different than a naming right to a building. One of my first decisions on the school board back in 1996 was whatever software company was going to give a gift to the district of a scoreboard in exchange for exclusive vending contract rights and this is not a gift. We need to figure out if this is a good deal for the district and I think our school district has been pretty good about making sure that those kinds of things are evaluated and... As that goes forward, I saw that the Sheboygan Public Education Foundation was going to be involved in making decisions. How have they got to a point where they might decide how they're going to do it? I mean would you like a private industry like McDonald's or Wendy's wanting their name on a building or something? How are you going to make a decision on what names to allow I think part of it is there aren't necessarily groups that are jumping out to spend millions of dollars on buildings so that there's some hustle involved. Some selling, some pitching of the project to various industries. It's my understanding however that the school district and specifically the school board will retain and rightfully so will retain final decision making authority about whether they're going to allow that to happen. If the education foundation finds a terrific donor for two million dollars but the school district and specifically the board is not in favor of it they'll have the final say which is I mean absolutely I think that's how it has to be. Briefly before we're wrapping up we're in the schools reading scores are up for third graders still below the state average. This is kind of near and dear to my heart we do very well we never talk about when we're looking at Sheboygan scores how many of our children don't speak English and so they are and they're folded into this I think the school district is doing a great job I mean we look and say we're three or four points below the state average but when 33% is it now of your children our minority children many of whom do speak English but many of whom do not I think we're doing pretty good. And then the increase not only is the influx of ELL and other English language learners and those things but also as we talked about a couple of episodes back a couple months ago the larger number of students who come from what the state labels economically disadvantaged families has been really kind of the hidden secret that nobody much talks about we've been focusing on race but that's part of it progress is being made and when you get to about one or two percent by the way this isn't fine tuning one or two percent of on a test like this is within the margin of error so you're pretty close to the state average and the good news is that the schools that have those types of families that struggle Sheridan long fellow Washington they're the ones that are making reasonably good progress it's the schools that have traditionally not had those types of populations now they're there and now teachers have to adjust and change practices that's that's the next challenge I think the district's going to face. Yeah and I think that so many of our children really you know are in that spot time is gone it's been a pleasure and we'll talk again soon.