 All right, we have a final conversation for this morning. We're looking at the 2023 census of Nigeria. It will be the first national census held in the country since the 2006 census. I don't know if you remember the 2006 census. I remember it because I was part of the exercise. Over 190 billion there has been allocated for the 2023 exercise. The National Council of State, an organ of the federal government of Nigeria responsible for advising the executive on policy matters, last year made a resolution that Nigeria will hold its national population census in April 2023 after the general elections, which is slated for February and March in 2023. This is 17 years after the last census was held, like I said earlier, in August 2006 and according to Nasser Isakwara, who is the director general of the Nigerian Population Commission, the current data in use by the country is obsolete. We call it obsolete projections. Those are his words. Now in August last year, President Buhari at a national stakeholder summit on the 2023 population and housing census reiterated the importance of an accurate census next year, saying that the correct figures will help the country in planning for the citizens. Joining us this morning to discuss this, we have Suleyman Akande. He's a public affairs analyst. Vasum from Abuja, Suleyman Akande. Good morning to you. Thank you very much for your time. Good morning. Thank you for having me. All right. Why does Nigeria need another population census? I know we've had from the president and we've been talking about it since last year, but why does Nigeria need another population census? Yeah, um, census is as important as any first set of our capital human development, because this is the data that guides us on what we really need as a people and as a nation. Central, unlike any other thing, you know, we've had a lot of numerous what are evaluating data in Nigeria and people have argued that, okay, we have things like the national identification management scheme, the voters card, the international passport. All these are never enough if census data is not there for the government to use. Why census is important is that it allows government to plan, policy, budget, and even how to direct each of their programs and who to direct it to. As you rightly said earlier, our sensors, the last sensor was in 2006. You can see the number of years that we are right behind us. We are using the data as old as 2006 to make plans for ourselves, just like in every shopkeepers. If you have a shopkeepers, I have the number of ways he has in his stores. You need to keep in place what are those ways that are still available, what are those that are obsolete or obsolete and where they didn't need to also improve, what they didn't need to stock in among other things. Just like a father, a father that has one child in 2006 can be making the same plan with one child where by now he now has about five children to get up for. So, census data is very, very important for us, a people, so that we'll be able to plan on what we're spending. And not just only that, that is why you can see some of the developmental goals we have subscribed to as a nation, like the SDG. That is why it's not really serving its purpose. Because we're not really planning with the accurate data. You can see some of the figures that are out there. Some will tell you that we are 250 million, we are 300 million. Optional, we will not even give the accurate data that we are in the accurate population of the country. All are just based on projection. So, I must tell you that these census is coming at the very right time. And we really need it and it should really be an exercise that should be given all the seriousness. Why in your opinion has it taken this long, 17 years for Nigeria to have a national count? Yeah, I think it's just our normal ways of attending to issues. It should be a national issues. And I think just like someone says that without data, you're just like any other person out there. What that data does a lot to people, even in a small company or even a small family, having a good data even help everyone to plan. So, having it taking this long, I believe it's people actually some people have argued that the amount that is being a mark for the census is too much because we have other pressing issues. And as government, sometimes they will claim that although they are trying to prioritize other needs of the government that spending such amount of money on it is too much. But personally for me, that no amount is too much to know the number of people that live in a country so that we can have a better planning so a better planning and know what to do for each area of the country. The previous census in the country, they've been embroiled in controversy with most people believing the figures being put out by the government. I mean, of course, we're used to not knowing how many we are because we're still, we're a country of about 150 million people. We just, oh, I think now we've taken it up to about 180 million people, we always guess. And it'll give us a chance to know how many we have. But the controversy surrounding the exercise as simple as the census is real in this part of the world. Why do you think it's always a controversial subject and an exercise that people really, really come out to talk about in this way? We've talked about maybe trust, we can talk about issues of trust. It's usually controversial. A lot of people do not trust that the government may do the right thing. Why is it such a controversial subject census in Nigeria? Yeah, it will always be controversial because you remember in demography, we used to say that population itself is an asset. So people always try to aggregate a particular number to the asset so that when it comes to the sharing of maybe resources or allocation of resources, you always give more resources to a region or a place that have higher population. But sometime, the population is an asset. But at the same time, if that population, that those numbers are not converted into something meaningful, it will be an asset whereby to be a problem to the people. You remember there is a kind of, the figure in 2006 was contested by the Lagos state government. The Lagos state government even need to go ahead to conduct their own census and says that the figures roll out by the National Population Commission does not reflect the true population of Lagos state. And Lagos state came out with their own personal sensors and they came out with a figure. So likewise, but one good thing about this age and now is that in 2006 census, I think it's the first census that GPS and geospatial approach was also introduced to our population sensors and exercise. But in 2023 now, we have even a better technology to solve the issue of sensors. One good thing is that we can have a unique number allocated to each person. However, you have things like biometric fingerprint and everything. So it may even make it hard for people to allocate figures that are not the true reflection of what is on ground. So people do that naturally because you have something to boost up. That is, my state has social number of population who can use that to negotiate what will get to the table among other things. But I think MVC just need to at least improve for what we used to have before and have an exercise that will really reflect the true population of each state and each region. So you're saying it's a political tool that the population is political tool for sharing the national cake and you need to have more people if you want to have more of a cake. I don't know if you're confident that we can have because now all I see from what you're saying is corruption, the age old corruption, the way have been used to in this country finding its way into something as simple as counting how many people are in the room, something how many houses are in the country. That's that and corruption has entered because of greed. In 2006 I was a happened to have the privilege to be part of the census exercise from the MVC angle. And I remember that it was a particular local government area in a particular ward where after going through the training or by MVC officials or MVC took some persons, you know ad hoc staff and trained them, they were meant to go do the enumeration accounting proper after doing the training and all that and lo and behold from nowhere they were told this those the enumerators were told that oh you can't go ahead and do the count. The community people they ward and the locality the village villagers themselves they have people that are going to come and do it that's what we had you know as a matter of fact I remember clearly that a particular counselor from that local government was always coming for the trainings and coming for the programs because then I was involved in one way or the other and it was always coming around and at the end of the day people who government spent money to train did not even do the counting they took people from the local government indigents they were insisting they must be allowed to count you know so are you confident that 2023 will be different from trade 2006 where a state like Kano ended up having more people than legal state? Yeah that is why I said MVC should at least all be again this time around with this all happen there is cultural differences to every national exercise who must establish that fact first that is if you go to if you go to a conservative society whereby you can just budding to be pushed out and start doing exercise you must be able to get someone from that locality that really understand the integrity and how the environment works so number one is this MVC needs to do a kind of cultural analysis of our fears as it do as it has to apply to other each day and I say fortunately now I think part of the I think I heard in a MVC report part of the exercise would be that we always link the population sensor to also the NIN wherever you have a unique identity code and we must not also forget census is not people it has to also be that household housing deficit socio-economic living condition of people among among other things so things like that need to also be work on they have an existing data to work on you mark all that data then you also have something new to do learn from the lesson of the past whereby you have people that are really don't miss out in that community to do it but we have taken also I understand that if you ask people to in a community to do it this can also be a kind of they can abuse that privilege but with technology in place you can use this to also checkmate any anomaly or any new introduction that could be made to also the data yeah that's what happened in 2006 should not repeat itself whereby states would have to come out and say that no this is not the reflection of our data so we should have an exercise that every Nigeria will agree with and say oh NPC has done a very great job do we need to have some sort of you know input from the international community to ensure fairness in such an exercise so that we don't see some part of the country rejecting the figures at the end of the day sure there's nothing wrong with that they can serve as an observer and they can also serve as a maybe a kind of in address capacity that is advising the Nigerian government on their experience in other parts of the world on what to do and how to do it I almost understand one thing there is also the kind of land mass immigration if you have a place whereby just like you said in the last exercise I remember in places like and I was in a Yobi around around that time so moving from one particular place to another is also very very hard and how do you assist people in the interland how do you assist people in the riverine area how do you do this how I'm on god that is so we should understand that it is an exercise that is very very capital intensive it is also it also need a lot of personnel it need a lot of technical know-how and it also need a lot of commitment from the all just look at what happened in 2006 I think sometime it's happened in the weekend well the question is this will you take the sensors during weekdays most and they do that they I think they do that during weekend sometime or should what should we declare if national public already for a whole week to take sensors all these are question NPCs we answer or should we just have it in weekend they don't or also have it during the weekdays number two is this we have people that the state of residence different from state of origin are you getting that so that shouldn't be a problem but we need to a kind of uh match these uh interest to get that so that I can reflect what really exists so in places like in Lagos now whether you have a lot of population so how do you deploy people to make sure that these people are count and counted when will you have to are you coming in the morning to do that are you coming in the evening which time is best to meet people at home and in their location so all these are questions that need to be answered before the exercise comes in we haven't noticed the population sensors with the population and housing sensors do you foresee this you know yes sensors given Nigeria some sort of way to data to help it solve the housing deficit problem in the country yes it is um very big it is it is coming at the very right time as you remember we have a very big out there housing deficit in this part of the world and if we can use that type of exercise it will come in handy to solve the problem the problem is that I used to my argument has always been this it is not even the problem of housing deficit it is that kind of housing affordability some of these houses are run from to Abuja here the houses are there but people cannot afford it even the rural urban migration is causing what we refer to as urban poor so if we can have a population that is a population and housing consensus that's a comparison we'll be able to also know that the social economic condition of every Nigerians what type of housing should we provide for them and what type of housing can they afford so that you can aggregate between their income and the type of housing they could access so as you rightly said I see it at least it will solve our housing deficit problem oh very interesting indeed I would like to leave it at that Suleyman Akande a public affairs analyst thank you very much for your time this morning thank you for having me all right and we look forward to successful 2023 national housing and population census with the figures that will have a very very good effect on the Nigerian economy and the state of affairs generally generally rather in the country all right please follow us on the social media platforms of plus tv africa on twitter facebook instagram and youtube and indeed a plus tv africa lifestyle is our second youtube account you can also search for our website where we update regularly news stories by the minute my name is kofi Bartels on behalf of the entire team the crew here uh camera men technical staff production staff uh from our studios right here in victoria island because thank you for your time i'll be back tomorrow good morning